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jerek
03-14-2006, 12:07 PM
Old article, see link below. Originally posted 10/22/05. It is always funny to read old writing, and even though the writer is surely eating heaping plate upon plate of crow over some of this piece, I decided to go ahead and present it in its entirety because it makes still valuable points about the question of Vince Young being "NFL ready."

A good article, though I am certain you will question my "prejudice." Read and discuss.

That said, Vince proved this guy wrong. Can he prove others?


Now I realize there is always a learning curve for rookie quarterbacks in the NFL. Very few guys step in from day 1 and are successful. The only names that come to mind that fit that mold are named Marino and Roethlisberger. There is a lot of NFL highway littered with the failed careers of guys far more accomplished as college quarterbacks than Vince Young. And those are guys who DID play under center, and DID perform at a very high level against teams tougher and mightier than Baylor and Kansas and STILL didn’t get it done in the pros.

Is it possible that some team will still take a chance and draft Vince as a Quarterback instead of as a receiver, or running back or defensive back? Sure. It happens every year, most recently by the Atlanta Falcons with Michael Vick. But let’s be clear, Young is not as good as Michael Vick was in college, and as a pro, Vick’s jury is still out. Yes he wins, but he wins with his team and his legs not with his quarterbacking skills. He’s in year five and still struggles with passing concepts and principles of reading defenses. Vince Young will start even further behind Vick in his educational process to be a pro quarterback.

So to all the NFL General Managers out there looking for the next big name to helm your franchise let me offer these words of advice on Vince Young, scout him carefully for ALL potential positions and then make your decision. He might make a fantastic receiver or running back or defensive back. And if you select him as your quarterback, let the buyer beware.

http://multiplementality.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2005/10/22/506/

Point is, NO QB is "NFL ready" coming out of college. I don't care if Peyton Manning had spent 7 years at Tennessee...he wasn't going to be "NFL ready" coming out of college.

So for somebody to state that he's going to warm the bench for two years before he's ready and think it's coming across as an insult is pretty weak.

Fast forward to 3/14/2006. I have read this time and time again on this board, and I still believe that you are completely missing the point. "NFL-ready" is obviously subjective: that is why a number of analysts are, as of today, projecting Young as a possible rookie starter, while significantly more of them still assert that he will not readily be able to translate his game to the pros, or will require a year or two of backup role and practice to polish the rough spots in his game. Nobody outside of Austin or this board cares how many times Mack Brown insists to the contary.

As far as "not NFL ready" being an "insult," well, I hardly think that is true. Most starting NFL QB's either benefit from sitting the bench or getting limited reps throughout the first few years of their careers, or they struggle to graduate from that "school of hard knocks" before they really get things figured out. Carr certainly has been through this program as a rookie starter on an expansion team, and whether or not he has really even graduated yet remains to be seen.

If anyone perceives it as an insult, it is only the Vince Young fan club, most of whom, judging by their many words on this board, still emphatically believe that this guy can literally do no wrong and that everything he touches will turn to gold.

Whether or not he is "NFL ready" depends on your definition of the term. Nobody can seriously deny his potential, but there is a substantial difference between Peyton Manning coming out of Tennessee and Vince Young coming out of Texas. You delude yourself if you think otherwise.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I did *not* say this guy is right about everything. Clearly, hindsight provides some clarity that his foresight did not, but I think he was wrong even then on a few of his statements. As I said, I presented the entire thing unmodified, both because it serves as an interesting history lesson and because it contains a solid case for why it is difficult to go from the very stripped down Texas offense to an NFL "pro" offense.

Dr. Toro
03-14-2006, 12:25 PM
NFL ready in a different way. Sporting news has a new article up talking about some teams are seriously considering using him as a WR while he's learning the NFL QB position. I think it would be interesting, give you an idea of his dedication, endear himself to your fans, and maybe turn into that all-time great receiver Saban thought he'd be. I think he will be a great Qb, but if you can get an early return, without hindering his development or seriously endangering him, why not?

I don't think it adds anything to his value, but it's interesting.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=72024

jerek
03-14-2006, 12:29 PM
NFL ready in a different way. Sporting news has a new article up talking about some teams are seriously considering using him as a WR while he's learning the NFL QB position. I think it would be interesting, give you an idea of his dedication, endear himself to your fans, and maybe turn into that all-time great receiver Saban thought he'd be. I think he will be a great Qb, but if you can get an early return, without hindering his development or seriously endangering him, why not?

I don't think it adds anything to his value, but it's interesting.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=72024

Ugh, I'm not sure I like the idea. He is fast for a QB but hardly blazing for a WR, and while he does possess freakish size, I still hate the prospect of him getting QB money to play WR ... where he is going to be a lot more susceptible to injury. Vince taking a sack is very different from Vince getting lit by a guy like Roy Williams while trying to make a catch across the middle ...

Still, I admit it's an interesting possibility. Any one else think he should play WR?

Nighthawk
03-14-2006, 01:37 PM
Old article, see link below. Originally posted 10/22/05.


Are you Vince-baiting? What's the point? I'm a Vince support who believes he's going to tear up the NFL and in pretty short order. Unfortunately, he won't be doing it for the Texans. I'm hoping the incremental moves we're making will start to turn our team around, but I'm afraid that's going to happen slowly.

My money says he'll have a super bowl ring before we do.

thunderkyss
03-14-2006, 01:46 PM
If you want to throw away your money, play him as a WR..... You kill his confidence, and take him away from his primayry duty. Learning the QB spot. Even if a team has this idea, I don't think Vince or his agent(whoever that may be) will go for it.

As far as NFL ready.......... yeah, Vince is NFL ready. He has nothing else to prove, and Texas would be foolish to try to teach him to be "NFL like". Ready to start........

New Orleans used a lot of Shotgun...... not as much as Texas, but enough to let Vince be Vince. Denver's also got a nice system with Bootlegs, playfakes, and QB rollouts, to give a QB all kinds of time to decipher a Defense..... they also use shotgun formations often.......... not as much as N.O.

If I had Matt Lienart, assuming I agree with what all the scouts, and Texans fans beleive about his talent and readiness, I would have drafted him with no intention of starting him Week 1. He's going to have to blow my mind in TC, and the Preseason to get the start. Weeks 1-5, I want him in my back pocket, I want to know what he sees on every down, and when my OC comes to me with what he is seeing from upstairs, I want to see if Matt gets it. He may start as early as week 4, but that would be the earliest.

If I had Vince, We'd pretty much do the same thing. Except, I wouldn't expect him to start as early as Week5. I won't start him, till Week 8, if we aren't @ .500. Week 10, if we aren't leading a Wildcard race. But I have to see him working on the things I tell him he needs work on. In the preseason, I'm telling him, no running. This isn't some Circus, make the plays from the pocket. I want to see him take a sack. I want to see him beat a blitz with his arm. I want to see him play QB. I'd be very upfront about it. Tell him, these are the lessons he's got to learn, before he takes the filed during the regular season. Once I'm comfortable that he can perform from the pocket, then I'll let him loose. If he thinks scrambling, or breaking the LOS is his best option, then, that's fine. I'd give him that freedom, just like I'd give any QB the freedom to call an audible. But there will be no audibles for Vince to run the ball......... there will be no plays other than the occasional bootleg/QB sneak, for Vince to run the ball.

Lucky
03-14-2006, 02:25 PM
If you want to throw away your money, play him as a WR..... You kill his confidence, and take him away from his primayry duty. Learning the QB spot. Even if a team has this idea, I don't think Vince or his agent(whoever that may be) will go for it.
Vince has already said as much with his "QB for life" quote.

kbourda
03-14-2006, 02:38 PM
Ugh, I'm not sure I like the idea. He is fast for a QB but hardly blazing for a WR, and while he does possess freakish size, I still hate the prospect of him getting QB money to play WR

Yeah considering that we have a QB that we're already paying Pro-Bowl type cash to for a backup QB's performance.

chuckm
03-14-2006, 02:40 PM
Yeah considering that we have a QB that we're already paying Pro-Bowl type cash to for a backup QB's performance.


cause and effect ..... Young questioned, Carr bashed ...... sweet

Huge
03-14-2006, 03:30 PM
Wow...I really don't know where to start.

If the guy is wrong and was proven wrong on so many different aspects, what makes that a "good article"? He's so off base on so many things it's pathetic.

He even tried to justify his reasoning in one of his replies to somebody that commented on his article:
And as for what Vince did vs. the Ohio St. Linebacking corps, you’re right, he tore them up….WITH HIS FEET! Not his arm.
Credibility --- GONE!!!

Sorry, but I have to dismiss everything else the guy said after reading that.

But I won't just yet. Read on...
From the NFL’s perspective, experience under center is paramount. In the last 10 years, I can only think of one quarterback that was taken in the first round that had less experience under center and more experience in the shotgun formation-that was last year’s number one overall Alex Smith of the San Francisco Forty-niners(his first game was a train wreck!). The rest of the shotgun style quarterbacks over that same span have been forced to settle for something less if they even made it in the pros.
Apparently this guy has never heard of Ben Roethlisberger (Super Bowl champ), Chad Pennington or Byron Leftwich. All of whom ran the majority of their collegiate snaps from the shot-gun.

Also, he's pretty off-base when he claims that Vince almost never runs plays from under center. I can provide visual evidence if need be. And remember, these would just be the highlight reels from under the center. There were many other plays ran from under center that didn't make it.

So that theory is pretty much waxed. People that are too lazy to actually do research on the subject like to pick up a topic and run with it and pretend they're expressing a new idea to the masses. Simply not the case.

So I'm done with this guy.

Now...
Fast forward to 3/14/2006. I have read this time and time again on this board, and I still believe that you are completely missing the point. "NFL-ready" is obviously subjective: that is why a number of analysts are, as of today, projecting Young as a possible rookie starter, while significantly more of them still assert that he will not readily be able to translate his game to the pros, or will require a year or two of backup role and practice to polish the rough spots in his game. Nobody outside of Austin or this board cares how many times Mack Brown insists to the contary.

As far as "not NFL ready" being an "insult," well, I hardly think that is true. Most starting NFL QB's either benefit from sitting the bench or getting limited reps throughout the first few years of their careers, or they struggle to graduate from that "school of hard knocks" before they really get things figured out. Carr certainly has been through this program as a rookie starter on an expansion team, and whether or not he has really even graduated yet remains to be seen.

If anyone perceives it as an insult, it is only the Vince Young fan club, most of whom, judging by their many words on this board, still emphatically believe that this guy can literally do no wrong and that everything he touches will turn to gold.

Whether or not he is "NFL ready" depends on your definition of the term. Nobody can seriously deny his potential, but there is a substantial difference between Peyton Manning coming out of Tennessee and Vince Young coming out of Texas. You delude yourself if you think otherwise.

Thoughts?
My first thought is, if "NFL ready" depends on your definition, how could I be missing the point? If my point derives from what my definition of "NFL ready" is, how can I be missing it?

My second thought: I don't think he's as close to what Peyton Manning was to being "NFL ready" coming out of Tennessee. But that doesn't mean Manning was "NFL ready" (by my own definition, of course). I simply don't understand how Vince having to wait a few years before he's "NFL ready" can be considered a bad thing given how long it takes every other QB before they're effective. And if it's not a bad thing, why bother bringing up unless your intent is to make an insult?

How he becomes "NFL ready" is irrelevent to me because history has shown both methods (playing right away...sitting for awhile) have proven to have successess and failures.

Thoughts?
Ugh, I'm not sure I like the idea. He is fast for a QB but hardly blazing for a WR, and while he does possess freakish size, I still hate the prospect of him getting QB money to play WR ... where he is going to be a lot more susceptible to injury. Vince taking a sack is very different from Vince getting lit by a guy like Roy Williams while trying to make a catch across the middle ...

Still, I admit it's an interesting possibility. Any one else think he should play WR?
I completely disagree with the idea he should be moved to WR. But it has nothing to do with his speed (lack of blazing speed doesn't seem to be hampering Anquan Boldin).

Kaiser Toro
03-14-2006, 03:43 PM
NFL ready is a great term to convey a piece that will get others to promote their take and have it spread virally over the internet. The question is whether or not the player's game can transfer from one system to a specific NFL team's system. NFL ready assumes that all offense are run and executed the same. There is no such standard.

Good idea Jerek to frame it for better dialogue. However, the thesis is generic and not applicable to the granular conversation you are looking for in my opinion.

kbourda
03-14-2006, 08:44 PM
cause and effect ..... Young questioned, Carr bashed ...... sweet

So now i'm lying right? Call it what you like, but call a spade a spade.

chuckm
03-14-2006, 08:50 PM
So now i'm lying right? Call it what you like, but call a spade a spade.


my post contained no interpretation of the truthfulness (or lack of) of your comment


this whole "I have questions about Young's ability to translate his skills to the NFL, oh yea well Carr sucks" smacks of how children react when they're in trouble ....

kbourda
03-14-2006, 09:04 PM
my post contained no interpretation of the truthfulness (or lack of) of your comment


this whole "I have questions about Young's ability to translate his skills to the NFL, oh yea well Carr sucks" smacks of how children react when they're in trouble ....

Look this cat made a comment that he had a problem with a player drafted at QB making QB money but playing at WR. And I made a comment I have a problem with a QB getting Pro Bowl money and performing like a 3rd string rookie. So now am acting like a child for stating fact. Some of you people are common jokes, plain and simple. I see countless threads going on and on about Vince can't do this or that or another. What he should or shouldn't do. Cat, i'm a grown man with four kids, a wife, and a mortgage. Don't come at me like that. What I said about Carr is the truth. The things people spew about Vince is speculation, which some perceive to be the gospel these days.

chuckm
03-14-2006, 09:15 PM
Cat, i'm a grown man with four kids, a wife, and a mortgage. Don't come at me like that. What I said about Carr is the truth. The things people spew about Vince is speculation, which some perceive to be the gospel these days.

ease up turbo .... nothing in my post was personal .... wife, 3 kids, 2 grandkids, mortgage, dog, .... for what that's worth in this discussion (nothing) .... you see it your way, I see it mine ... peace

thunderkyss
03-14-2006, 09:26 PM
Look this cat made a comment that he had a problem with a player drafted at QB making QB money but playing at WR. And I made a comment I have a problem with a QB getting Pro Bowl money and performing like a 3rd string rookie. So now am acting like a child for stating fact. Some of you people are common jokes, plain and simple. I see countless threads going on and on about Vince can't do this or that or another. What he should or shouldn't do. Cat, i'm a grown man with four kids, a wife, and a mortgage. Don't come at me like that. What I said about Carr is the truth. The things people spew about Vince is speculation, which some perceive to be the gospel these days.

This is ridiculous......... Carr playing like a 3rd string rookie....... that's preposturous, ludacris...... insane, uncalled for. You sir have no idea what you're talking about. I don't care how man kids you've got, or mortgages... I don't care how many wives you have, or had. You obviously know nothing about football, and come here on this MB rehashing opinions you've heard, read, or dreamed up.

David is playing at least at the level of a starting rookie, but getting paid ProBowl money(darn near)...... not some 3rd stringer.

kbourda
03-14-2006, 09:30 PM
This is ridiculous......... Carr playing like a 3rd string rookie....... that's preposturous, ludacris...... insane, uncalled for. You sir have no idea what you're talking about. I don't care how man kids you've got, or mortgages... I don't care how many wives you have, or had. You obviously know nothing about football, and come here on this MB rehashing opinions you've heard, read, or dreamed up.

David is playing at least at the level of a starting rookie, but getting paid ProBowl money(darn near)...... not some 3rd stringer.

Well they did bring in a 3rd stringer to "compete" with him. Also not to mention, but i'm sure you know, a career backup nonetheless. Brilliant!

thunderkyss
03-14-2006, 10:03 PM
Well they did bring in a 3rd stringer to "compete" with him. Also not to mention, but i'm sure you know, a career backup nonetheless. Brilliant!

But Carr is starting.... doesn't matter what happens in Pre-Season... Carr will win, so that makes him at least a 2nd string rookie.

jerek
03-15-2006, 12:13 AM
*cough cough*

My question boils down to, do you feel Vince is "NFL ready" (e.g., should start right away, or wait, etc.)

It had nothing to do with mortgages, kids, grown men, Carr bashing, etc. Though I appreciate chuckm pointing out the irony, and again I am astounded to see anything remotely construed as negativity regarding Vince described as "speculation" ... while people can dog on Carr anything and everything, and it is "fact." Wtf?

That said, could we get this back on track?

KT, I agree that the question might be better framed in regards to the player's college offense as it transitions to his new pro team's offense. In this case, the writer of the article states that Vince has not run anything remotely resembling "most" NFL teams' offenses, a statement I tend to agree with. Obviously, certain coaches are more apt to customize their offense to a player (e.g. what the Falcons have done with Vick), while others are more apt to customize a player to their offense.

Maybe more succinctly put, what will it take (or not take) for Vince to come on and start right away. To succeed? Bad QB, good QB to mentor him, injuries, doesn't-matter-Vince-starts-from-camp ... ? What do you foresee as being his ideal development?

This is the opinion I would ask for. While I will fire back if I smell any stupidity, I do pose this question as an honest one, an opportunity for me to learn more about the guy from some of his more dedicated observers, and no that is not a jibe, just a simple statement. Thanks, and fire away -

tulexan
03-15-2006, 12:21 AM
I believe that by far the best scenario for Vince Young would be to go to a team with a seasoned veteran and sit for 2 or 3 seasons learning the game and working on his mechanics to make them more conventional and less "flinging dog poop off of your hand". I believe the worst scenario for Vince Young would be to start right away on a bad team because he will have very little success passing. He probably would have some success running the ball, but that might not be a good thing because he might be start to run more than he should and open himself up to major injuries.

kbourda
03-15-2006, 12:37 AM
*cough cough*

My question boils down to, do you feel Vince is "NFL ready" (e.g., should start right away, or wait, etc.)

It had nothing to do with mortgages, kids, grown men, Carr bashing, etc. Though I appreciate chuckm pointing out the irony, and again I am astounded to see anything remotely construed as negativity regarding Vince described as "speculation" ... while people can dog on Carr anything and everything, and it is "fact." Wtf?

That said, could we get this back on track?

KT, I agree that the question might be better framed in regards to the player's college offense as it transitions to his new pro team's offense. In this case, the writer of the article states that Vince has not run anything remotely resembling "most" NFL teams' offenses, a statement I tend to agree with. Obviously, certain coaches are more apt to customize their offense to a player (e.g. what the Falcons have done with Vick), while others are more apt to customize a player to their offense.

Maybe more succinctly put, what will it take (or not take) for Vince to come on and start right away. To succeed? Bad QB, good QB to mentor him, injuries, doesn't-matter-Vince-starts-from-camp ... ? What do you foresee as being his ideal development?

This is the opinion I would ask for. While I will fire back if I smell any stupidity, I do pose this question as an honest one, an opportunity for me to learn more about the guy from some of his more dedicated observers, and no that is not a jibe, just a simple statement. Thanks, and fire away -

Whatever. That's all i'll say about that.

But yes, he's about as "NFL Ready" as he's going to get. I see it like this, the #1 pick (and I know the Texans aren't going to get him) last year in Alex Smith was starting a good number of games last year. He ran basically the same offense that Young ran at UT. And pretty much mastered it to a point that made him the top pick. So I say put him in the fire and see what he can do.

thunderkyss
03-15-2006, 12:49 AM
If I were a team like Denver, who already moves the QB around, and actually use the QBs mobility to the advantage of the team, then I might start Vince Young.

If I were the Texans, and Vince Beat David Carr in the Preseason, then Yes, I'd start Vince.

But Denver's got Jake, who has worked with the playbook, for what 3 years now?? Carr is going to be getting a new playbook. I don't think he has any real advantage over Vince, except that he knows who the real heavy hitters are.

If I were N.O. without Brees, I'd start him. If I were NY, without Pennington, I'd start him.

If i were Dallas, with Drew, I'd sit him. If I were Arizona, with Kurt, I'd sit him. If I were SF with Alex, I'd start him........ If I were Miami with Griese, I'd sit him.

tulexan
03-15-2006, 12:51 AM
Griese was on the Bucs

HOOK'EM
03-15-2006, 05:41 AM
VY tha Tennessee BUST!:redtowel:

thunderkyss
03-15-2006, 05:51 AM
If I were the Bucs, with Simms I'd sit him, then just give Griese to Miami, so my earlier post would make sense.

MorKnolle
03-15-2006, 11:13 AM
Ugh, I'm not sure I like the idea. He is fast for a QB but hardly blazing for a WR, and while he does possess freakish size, I still hate the prospect of him getting QB money to play WR ... where he is going to be a lot more susceptible to injury. Vince taking a sack is very different from Vince getting lit by a guy like Roy Williams while trying to make a catch across the middle ...

Still, I admit it's an interesting possibility. Any one else think he should play WR?

No, for a couple reasons:
1. As they said on the radio yesterday when someone brought it up, if he's going to play QB then he needs to play QB. He needs to stay as a backup QB, watch film, practice, and study as a QB, play on the scouting squad as a QB and get reps in there, etc. WR is not a position you just walk onto the field and instantly make an impace at, it is a position you have to work at and spend time on like every other position in the game, so you can't really just walk on the field and play WR withouth practicing for it, and practicing for it takes time away from his development as a QB.

2. As was mentioned by a poster on this thread and by me a long time ago on a thread about VY playing WR (which was later misquoted by a couple VY people as me saying he wasn't fast at all), he is fast for a QB but not for a WR. Reggie McNeal's 4.35 is genuinely fast for a WR, but Vince Young's 4.45-4.50 is not anything special, that's probably what a Jabar Gaffney would run. His height would be nice at WR, but you can easily find WRs somewhere that are just as big, just as fast if not faster, and have better WR skills.

3. Putting him at WR increases his chance for injury. Vince is 6'4.5", 229 lbs., but that's not real well built foir someone that is will be taking more hits. Putting him at WR will make him more susceptible for big hits from LBs and S, and he'd likely be best suited as a slot possession receiver, meaning he'd be going over the middle a lot against LBs and SSs, and a few big hits from Ray Lewis and Roy Williams could be bad for his healther. There is a difference between running with the ball in your hands the whole way and going out on routes and trying to catch a ball and not being able to protect yourself while these guys are closing in on you for the kill, and especially having not played WR before he probably wouldn't be able to protect himself very well, and playing him at WR would be increasing his risk of injury.

4. As Jerek said, if you're paying him QB money, especially if he ends up being a top 5 pick, you don't want him at WR. You want him being your QB, you want him studying and practicing to be a QB, you don't want him getting hurt playing WR, and he probably wouldn't be that great of a WR anyways, especially not worth all these added risks.

I believe that by far the best scenario for Vince Young would be to go to a team with a seasoned veteran and sit for 2 or 3 seasons learning the game and working on his mechanics to make them more conventional and less "flinging dog poop off of your hand". I believe the worst scenario for Vince Young would be to start right away on a bad team because he will have very little success passing. He probably would have some success running the ball, but that might not be a good thing because he might be start to run more than he should and open himself up to major injuries.

Arizona Cardinals at #10? That's been my projection for him as of late.

edo783
03-15-2006, 11:26 AM
Arizona Cardinals at #10? That's been my projection for him as of late.

Arizona at 10 would be probably the BEST spot for VY. He would get to sit 2-3 years behind a QB that has a history of helping the #2 guy and working with a coach who would be likely to make use of VY.

thunderkyss
03-15-2006, 11:32 AM
I think he runs well for a QB. But doesn't run like a WR.... I don't think his size is what would get him hurt, but his form... If you teach him to run with the right form, I can't see how he can't get faster...... 4.30, or there abouts.

But his size, isn't that different from alot of Recievers... Terrell Owens 6'3" 226, Plaxico Burress 6'5" 225, Keyshawn 6'4" 211( I really thought he was 6'5").

But Vince Runs straight up..... like a gazelle.

MorKnolle
03-15-2006, 12:04 PM
I think he runs well for a QB. But doesn't run like a WR.... I don't think his size is what would get him hurt, but his form... If you teach him to run with the right form, I can't see how he can't get faster...... 4.30, or there abouts.

But his size, isn't that different from alot of Recievers... Terrell Owens 6'3" 226, Plaxico Burress 6'5" 225, Keyshawn 6'4" 211( I really thought he was 6'5").

But Vince Runs straight up..... like a gazelle.

Vince at a 4.30? Absolutely won't happen, I could see a 4.40 but that's about it. 4.30 is very rare and special, and someone of his build won't be able to run that fast. Vince is tall for a WR but not especially thick and you're right with his running style and having to run routes over the middle of the field it definitely puts him in danger of getting laid out by someone like Roy Williams, if he had experience at WR and protecting himself in such situations I wouldn't worry about it, but that's not the case.