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View Full Version : No WR or T, I don't believe this!


pittbull
03-13-2006, 10:07 AM
Did the Grandmaster, Charley Casserly, not see the same problem many of us saw last year? Inconsistent line play and no strong threat at #2 WR to take the heat off AJ? What are they doing in FA? I know they said they didn't want to overspend to bring in decent free agents, but sometimes its a cultural change and bringing in these guys can help. Point blank, the O-line needs an upgrade and preferably someone with a nasty streak. Bottom-line, the entire team was soft the past couple of seasons, and that might help. AS for WR, I love Gaffney at the slot, but without a good #2, forget about it. Jeb Putzier or whatever other TE they want to bring in will not take pressure and triple teams off Johnson enough. I'm starting to see the same type of signings we always have had. Does Givens deserve $4Mil a year, I doubt it, but they have to extend themselves a bit to bring in someone who can stretch the field and go across the middle. Come on, they kept BRadford last year! Not one team wanted to bring him in for a look.....................and we kept him!!! Time for Charley to go, and bring in a real G.M. for this stuff! Suggestions: With whose left, Tackle LJ Shelton. At WR? Who knows, but we have to get someone beside Bradford, Mathis, or whoever else is left on the roster!:superman:

Vinny
03-13-2006, 10:25 AM
Pitts is a much better LT than LJ Shelton. You don't bring in guys just to bring in guys. Pitts actually shut out Freeney twice once the Texans figured out that you should put your best LT at LT. John McClain was on 610am this morning and said the Texans told him the person that gave up the most sacks last year was David Carr. He gave up over 20 sacks and the backs and TE's gave up about 12.

CoastalTexan
03-13-2006, 10:28 AM
I always believe everything John Mcclain says.

Vinny
03-13-2006, 10:30 AM
I always believe everything John Mcclain says.Well, if you can't see it by watching games and you won't believe McClain, Kubiak mentions that Carr was a big part of the sack problem on the video on the front page too. Solving our offensive problem isn't just as simple as bringing in a Tackle to replace Pitts.

Frills
03-13-2006, 10:31 AM
Pitts is a much better LT than LJ Shelton. You don't bring in guys just to bring in guys. Pitts actually shut out Freeney twice the Texans figured out that you should put your best LT at LT. John McClain was on 610am this morning and said the person that gave up the most sacks last year was David Carr. He gave up over 20 sacks and the backs and TE's gave up about 12.


McClain is also a VY supporter and has been known to blow things way overboard.

Sad actually he used to be somewhat of a non biased reporter...he needs a transfer to New York.

Vinny
03-13-2006, 10:34 AM
McClain is also a VY supporter and has been known to blow things way overboard.

Sad actually he used to be somewhat of a non biased reporter...he needs a transfer to New York.
Ok, Kubiak lied to him. We will run with that.

nunusguy
03-13-2006, 10:34 AM
I always believe everything John Mcclain says.
Yea me to. Its really amazing how gullible some people are when it comes to believing what McClain, Justice, and others in the Chronicle say.

TEXANS84
03-13-2006, 10:35 AM
If you read what Vinny wrote, Kubiak even mentions Carr is part of the sack problem via the video on the main page. Its not a McClain/Young lovefest, its the truth. Any person knows that Carr was part of the problem.

Johnny Utah
03-13-2006, 10:37 AM
Remember the Texans also have a draft that they will use to fill the other holes on the roster. No need to overspend on a WR when they already had to overspend for a DE. If we are able to bring in Putzier then I will be content with the FA additions this offseason.

McClain did say that the o-line is not great, but not nearly as bad as people think it is. He said that Carr, RB's, and coaching were all part of the problem.

Frills
03-13-2006, 10:37 AM
Last year Carr also has Grade AAA+ coaching, and when he did have an actual QB coach, Pendry and Capers tried a horrible O-line "experiment"

So he runs out of bounds for a 2 yd loss instead of throwing it away, he gets a sack, and the locals get angry...in a 2-14 campaign did it really matter?

Vinny
03-13-2006, 10:41 AM
Last year Carr also has Grade AAA+ coaching, and when he did have an actual QB coach, Pendry and Capers tried a horrible O-line "experiment"

So he runs out of bounds for a 2 yd loss instead of throwing it away, he gets a sack, and the locals get angry...in a 2-14 campaign did it really matter?This argument was about the fact that we need linemen to cure the problems....I'm just pushing the fact out that LJ Shelton replacing Pitts isn't the cure. When your QB gives up 20+ sacks all by himself, switching out lineman isn't going to help it.

TexanBacker93
03-13-2006, 10:47 AM
We kept Bradford last season at the veterans minimum. If not there it was pretty close. Givens wants #1 WR money. He's not good enough for that kind of money. If you look at his production against what he wants you can't give it to him. People want him because they've seen him in Super Bowls and he came from Humble. I'd rather look at Antonio Bryant or even Reche Caldwell who will sign for half of what Givens is asking for. Givens reminds me of Peerless Price. He's going to end up somewhere as the #1 guy and he won't succeed. He'd do well here since the Texans have Andre, but not at $25 million.

Putzier will help a lot. Having a receiver that can work the middle of the field will keep the safeties from keying off on AJ every play. He gets more single coverage and he's going to put up 2004 numbers again.

I don't think there are any LTs available that are better than Pitts. Shaffer might have been an upgrade, but he signed quickly and for a good chunk. Ashworth and Walker are other possibilities, but I still wouldn't put them at LT over Pitts. I would still expect them to draft 1 or 2 linemen. If the team signs Flanagan to start at center the line is going to be improved.

The team can't change every position in one season. Small changes will still affect this team. It won't take much to get the team to the .500 level this season and then the coaches will have a better feel for the personalities and talent on the roster and make the playoff push in 2007.

Trenches
03-13-2006, 10:48 AM
great. so our QB AND our line is the problem. that was Carr's best excuse that he had no time to throw, etc. at what point do we give up on Carr? Once Kubiak has had a chance to work with him? He is developing bad habits that will be hard to break. In fact, the whole team is. Losing is a one of the hardest habits to break. Ask an Detroit fan. We are quickly becoming a joke of a franchise. This team looks no better now than it did in year 2. Still the same questions. I hope Bush is truely Barry Sanders reincarnated becuase thats what its going to take.

Kaiser Toro
03-13-2006, 10:55 AM
I hope Bush is truely Barry Sanders reincarnated becuase thats what its going to take.

Agreed. If we do go with Bush and do not trade him the expectations will be astounding and I am not sure if any player, unit or coach would be able to live up to them. But as Napoleon Dynamite said, "Just tell them to pick Reggie, extend Carr and all of their wildest dreams will come true."

Bubbajwp
03-13-2006, 10:57 AM
I cant believe we have to go through this again.

Runner
03-13-2006, 10:58 AM
I cant believe we have to go through this again.

This weekend I spent some quiet time reflecting on my life over martinis and cigars. I felt the need to do this because of the recent Texans history and the effect I can see it is having on some people. What I found after some very serious contemplation :rolleyes: can be summarized as follows:

My life - home, family, health, work, etc. - was not affected by the Texans 2-14 record, not their previous 7-9 record, when they didn't exist, and probably won't be when they reach the playoffs.

I'm very relaxed now. :)

Bubbajwp
03-13-2006, 11:05 AM
This weekend I spent some quiet time reflecting on my life over martinis and cigars. I felt the need to do this because of the recent Texans history and the effect I can see it is having on some people. What I found after some very serious contemplation :rolleyes: can be summarized as follows:

My life - home, family, health, work, etc. - was not affected by the Texans 2-14 record, not their previous 7-9 record, when they didn't exist, and probably won't be when they reach the playoffs.

I'm very relaxed now. :)
Thanks I think I might try that to.

Vinny
03-13-2006, 11:08 AM
I believe that Carr could have done some things different he is not perfect and the OLine and RB and TEs could have done better but that does not make him a bad QB, I have seen a lot of QBs take sacks to avoid throwing the ball into tight coverage, but that is in the past and Carr has a new guy here that will get Carr to the level he can play at. Dont bring up running out of bounds either(people) he did that maybe 2 or 3 times out of frustration.

Yesterday on the draft special Kubiak said Carr and Payne have been the the guys that have been down there every day for 2 weeks straight, Carr is working hard is going to be a lot better.

I personaly would rather believe in what Kubes, Reeves, Bob, Steve have to say before I can believe a guy like John McClain, that is just me though.McClain said Kubiak told him.......All I'm trying to relay is that when people look at sacks they automatically trash the linemen. That is not always correct.

chuckm
03-13-2006, 11:10 AM
I heard McClain's comments as well .... he did say Carr was responsible for 20 sacks ...

however, it's difficult for me to see this as anything other than a cause and effect of having shaky protection for years ....

did he run out of bounds behind the line a number of times? Yep but the key word there is "run" ...

did he run into defenders? yep again the key word is "run" ..

I look forward to seeing him drop back and more often than not have something resembling a pocket rather than a jailbreak ....

if he can't handle things at that point then adios ...

big homey
03-13-2006, 11:37 AM
This argument was about the fact that we need linemen to cure the problems....I'm just pushing the fact out that LJ Shelton replacing Pitts isn't the cure. When your QB gives up 20+ sacks all by himself, switching out lineman isn't going to help it.
If the line was good enough, then Carr wouldn't have needed to run to the sideline in the first place.

Mailman04
03-13-2006, 11:41 AM
Why do you say no wide receivers. They signed Walter to an offer sheet yesterday and Cincy has one week to match. Givens isn't worth 5 million per year and if they reportedly offered him 18.5 for 5 years, which is fair. If they sign Flanagan at center I suppose they will draft an OT in second round and Winston or someone like that will be there. A little patience will go a long ways most of the time.

bdiddy
03-13-2006, 11:49 AM
Last time I checked we are still in the David Givens hunt and we signed Walter to an offer sheet. You cannot say the Texans have done nothing to address the WR position.

Also, Putzier has not come to Houston yet b/c of the birth of his child. From what I am hearing, if the Texans offer a reasonable contract, he will be in steel blue next year.

Chill out a little. The team is trying to address these areas.

Maddict5
03-13-2006, 12:30 PM
we still have the draft to get a wr and 0-line. ive a feeling that givens will take our offer because i doubt he'll get more. even if he doesnt, we have filled 1 of our needs in weaver and while i was starting to like mario, we now can spend our 1st in other needs. alright if we sign nobody else of significance- i dont really want putzier, i see the draft panning out like this (no trades)- reggie, ko/o-line, te, mlb-in the 1st 3 rounds. then on day 2, we pick up a wr like brandon marshall etc, another few o linemen and a cb maybe

thunderkyss
03-13-2006, 01:59 PM
I don't want Givens. But we've laid out $18.5 mil, I think he'll take it. I don't think he is worth it though.

I've always thought our Oline was one, maybe two players away, from being a complete unit. Our biggest problem there, I think has been musical chairs. It's like well, DD went down, let's stick Mathis back there.... or Dunta got hurt, we'll fill his spot with Antwoine......

If you think we haven't had a fair opportunity to assess David Carr's NFL progress, the same holds true for our line. Well, except David has been playing under pressure for 4 years, and hasn't improved. Correct me if I'm wrong, but i don't think we have had a complete season, where any of our OLinemen finished the year playing the position they started. We need better depth..... when our LT goes down, let's put a LT in his spot, not a RG, or a RT. When the Center goes down, let's put a Center in his spot. Versatility is a good trait for a backup, but not our starters....

whiskeyrbl
03-13-2006, 02:24 PM
I heard McClain's comments as well .... he did say Carr was responsible for 20 sacks ...

however, it's difficult for me to see this as anything other than a cause and effect of having shaky protection for years ....

did he run out of bounds behind the line a number of times? Yep but the key word there is "run" ...

did he run into defenders? yep again the key word is "run" ..

I look forward to seeing him drop back and more often than not have something resembling a pocket rather than a jailbreak ....

if he can't handle things at that point then adios ...

I agree, I can't count how many times last year while in his drop back before he could get set he was already in the clutches of a blitzing defender.On the other hand there were also countless times he looked confused and opted to run out of bounds,did not see if WR's were open or not on all of them. I'm sure every player on Offense attributed to the # of sacks,so I will not lay the blame on one paticular player or position.It is a team that wins and a team that loses.:ok:

Texas
03-13-2006, 03:03 PM
Im already 75% content with what we have done in the FA. I would like to see us get a new WR that can hang in a #2 spot. Also a TE that can handle would be nice and definetly a FS. If we dont get a FS out of tha FA which is really strong in that position then I will be quite upset. As far as the O-Line i'd like to see us boost it up in the FA but theres no real upgrades left in the FA from what we have that would be worth the $$ besides maybe releasing wiegert and getting a guard. I think the draft will be our line selection!

jerek
03-13-2006, 03:07 PM
Im already 75% content with what we have done in the FA. I would like to see us get a new WR that can hang in a #2 spot. Also a TE that can handle would be nice and definetly a FS. If we dont get a FS out of tha FA which is really strong in that position then I will be quite upset. As far as the O-Line i'd like to see us boost it up in the FA but theres no real upgrades left in the FA from what we have that would be worth the $$ besides maybe releasing wiegert and getting a guard. I think the draft will be our line selection!

I think we need to resign Gaffney for that #2. The trouble is no one remembers him because he too was a victim of stupid playcalling. He had some very solid games for us, is sufficiently fast and tall, and can catch.

I couldn't blame him for testing the FA, but I hope we get him back. He will look much different this year, I promise you that.

whiskeyrbl
03-13-2006, 03:11 PM
Im already 75% content with what we have done in the FA. I would like to see us get a new WR that can hang in a #2 spot. Also a TE that can handle would be nice and definetly a FS. If we dont get a FS out of tha FA which is really strong in that position then I will be quite upset. As far as the O-Line i'd like to see us boost it up in the FA but theres no real upgrades left in the FA from what we have that would be worth the $$ besides maybe releasing wiegert and getting a guard. I think the draft will be our line selection!

According to the Chronicle today Putzier will meet with Texans next week and Kubiack says he would like to sign him.So that could shore up a need at TE.

texanskan
03-13-2006, 03:18 PM
The Texans are getting things done in FA's I belive that within a week we will be one great draft away from being the most improved team in the NFL!

pittbull
03-13-2006, 03:23 PM
Vinny, I have always respected your comments and of course I'm going to come to your aid. Carr was some of the problem last season, as Kubiak even noted. I think adding some protection on his left side and getting another WR will help, but Carr himself is going to have to learn to be a QB again. Quite frankly, I think he has all the tools, but once you've been level over 200 times in 4 years as aQB, sometimes yo tend to be a little gunshy and get happy feet. Hopefully Kubs can help change his midset. :yahoo:

southtexan
03-13-2006, 03:49 PM
Pitts is a much better LT than LJ Shelton. You don't bring in guys just to bring in guys. Pitts actually shut out Freeney twice once the Texans figured out that you should put your best LT at LT. John McClain was on 610am this morning and said the Texans told him the person that gave up the most sacks last year was David Carr. He gave up over 20 sacks and the backs and TE's gave up about 12.
The game against Pittsburgh Carr was guilty of some sacks.

thunderkyss
03-13-2006, 04:02 PM
The way I understand what Vinny has stated, is that people are overreacting, because we haven't signed a big name on the OLine, Bentley, Mawae... or that we are making it difficult for anyone to believe we'll be drafting D'Brick.

Moving McKinney over to Gaurd, is an upgrade at the Left Gaurd Position. Putting Pitts back at Left Tackle is also a big improvement. Our left side is fine. With Weary at Right Gaurd, we're OK there too. Center is a need, so is RT, but our Oline has been vastly upgraded as is.

David Carr was a big part of the problem, now that he has Kubiak, Sherman, & Shanahan, chances are pretty good, that we've "solved" those problems too. Don't expect a big turnaround, but we've already reduced our 2006 sack count, by as much as 50%.

If we can get Flanagan, then we are good on OLine, I think(we still have Wiegart right??) Get Putzier for our TE, then we'll have more options going into the Draft.

Our Biggest problem is Oline.... well on Offense anyway. If we do get Flanagan, and Putzier, then we can look at WR, RB, or S, or DL, LB which are also needs(not in that order). We can consider later first/early second round offensive line players for depth, not necessarily reach for someone who should be able to start right away. Staying in the Top 5, is no longer a necessity.... Our possible trade down scenario opens up a lot more, as long as we aren't hoping the Jets decides to do us a favor, or Hope that someone will get NY's spot, so that they will trade with us.


Well, alot of that draft related stuff, is the way i see it. Hope I didn't misrepresent you Vinny.

wags
03-13-2006, 04:04 PM
Don't expect a big turnaround, but we've already reduced our 2006 sack count, by as much as 50%.

That's not a big turnaround? :confused:

texanskan
03-13-2006, 05:37 PM
The way I understand what Vinny has stated, is that people are overreacting, because we haven't signed a big name on the OLine, Bentley, Mawae... or that we are making it difficult for anyone to believe we'll be drafting D'Brick.

Moving McKinney over to Gaurd, is an upgrade at the Left Gaurd Position. Putting Pitts back at Left Tackle is also a big improvement. Our left side is fine. With Weary at Right Gaurd, we're OK there too. Center is a need, so is RT, but our Oline has been vastly upgraded as is.

David Carr was a big part of the problem, now that he has Kubiak, Sherman, & Shanahan, chances are pretty good, that we've "solved" those problems too. Don't expect a big turnaround, but we've already reduced our 2006 sack count, by as much as 50%.

If we can get Flanagan, then we are good on OLine, I think(we still have Wiegart right??) Get Putzier for our TE, then we'll have more options going into the Draft.

Our Biggest problem is Oline.... well on Offense anyway. If we do get Flanagan, and Putzier, then we can look at WR, RB, or S, or DL, LB which are also needs(not in that order). We can consider later first/early second round offensive line players for depth, not necessarily reach for someone who should be able to start right away. Staying in the Top 5, is no longer a necessity.... Our possible trade down scenario opens up a lot more, as long as we aren't hoping the Jets decides to do us a favor, or Hope that someone will get NY's spot, so that they will trade with us.


Well, alot of that draft related stuff, is the way i see it. Hope I didn't misrepresent you Vinny.

I agree that our left side is looking good with pitts, Mckinney and then either flanigan or DH at center as far as the right side I like Weigert over there along with a FA right gaurd and Wearey as depth at RG.

Todd Wade needs to go!

thunderkyss
03-13-2006, 05:40 PM
That's not a big turnaround? :confused:

When I say 50%, I don't mean half.......... I mean close to 50%..... a big turnaround, would be getting under 30 sacks........ under 20, is where we want to be.

Trenches
03-13-2006, 05:40 PM
didnt we have Pitts at LT and McKinney at LG late in the season last year?

I dont really see this as an upgrade. Looks like status quo to me. ie, the worst line in the NFL hasnt changed.

Runner
03-13-2006, 06:04 PM
didnt we have Pitts at LT and McKinney at LG late in the season last year?

I dont really see this as an upgrade. Looks like status quo to me. ie, the worst line in the NFL hasnt changed.

Yes, but we're hoping to be able to take 3 step drops in 2006 rather than the 1 or 2 step drops from last year. :rolleyes:

Seriously, coaching will help some in individual technique, but I don't think we'll see the line of Pitts - McKinney - Hodgdon - Weigert (or rookie) - Wade (or rookie) that has been touted recently. Some of the coaching improvement I expect to see will be putting the right players at the correct positions to form a cohesive offensive line.

Some upgrade in talent can be made; a quality upgrade in the middle of the line would help the whole line by eliminating the pressure up the middle and allowing a pocket to form.

I don't see any reason McKinney has to be a starter. Just because he's a better guard than center doesn't mean he's a good guard anymore. Any improvement the offense showed in the middle and end of last year has to be taken with a grain of salt. The offense was too restricted and simplistic at that point for a reasonable evaluation. Saying the line at the end of the year was better than the starting line anchored by Riley at left tackle isn't saying much.


Edited to add: QB coaching that eliminates Carr's self-sacking is also required, and expected (at least by me).

kiwitexansfan
03-13-2006, 06:19 PM
No WR or T, I don't believe this!

Just picking out the WR aspect of this complaint. Lets just remember here for a minute that we are going to be running a whole new offense hear this year. What happened last year is not the only indicator of what will happen this year. I think we need to take a look at the Broncos offense and their WR's because that will give us a guide as to how our WR's stack up.

They had Rod Smith and Ashley Lelie as their starters... we have AJ who offers at least what Smith does although with different qualities. They have Lelie a burner, we have Mathis they had Putzier, we may by the sounds of things have him too. Then they had Adams we have Armstrong and hopefully Gaffney. I would say that in comparison we are better off in the reciever stakes than they were.

Given this I am in no great panic to sign a WR

Bubbajwp
03-13-2006, 07:18 PM
No WR or T, I don't believe this!

Just picking out the WR aspect of this complaint. Lets just remember here for a minute that we are going to be running a whole new offense hear this year. What happened last year is not the only indicator of what will happen this year. I think we need to take a look at the Broncos offense and their WR's because that will give us a guide as to how our WR's stack up.

They had Rod Smith and Ashley Lelie as their starters... we have AJ who offers at least what Smith does although with different qualities. They have Lelie a burner, we have Mathis they had Putzier, we may by the sounds of things have him too. Then they had Adams we have Armstrong and hopefully Gaffney. I would say that in comparison we are better off in the reciever stakes than they were.

Given this I am in no great panic to sign a WR
As of right now the only recievers we have under contract are AJ, Jerome Mathis and Armstrong so we definetly need to sign somebody or atleast draft somebody.

thunderkyss
03-13-2006, 09:40 PM
I would have been happy keeping Gaffney here. I definitely think he's as good as Givens...







Yes I do.