PDA

View Full Version : A Thought for all the Anti Vince people


swtbound07
03-11-2006, 02:20 AM
Just an honest question. Most of the mock drafts i viewed last year had aaron rodgers not going anywhere higher than 10, when several teams had qb needs, and he and alex smith were the only 2 legitimate first round prospects (at qb, matt jones is something else). He fell to pick 26 i believe...dont quote me on the number. My point is this: with the jets, saints, raiders, and dolphins all rumored to be addressing their qb needs through free agency, and Vince's free fall post combine, hypothetically, I could see Vince Young lasting until the 1st pick of the 2nd round, With leinart going to tennessee, and cutler going to the lions...and nobody else with a pressing need for a qb as a first round pick. All of you people who think vince young isnt worth our pick, cant play in the NFL, david carr is the truth, etc. Would you take vince young in the 2nd round? Why or why not?

The Dude Abides
03-11-2006, 02:22 AM
I'm going to answer this like this. If Kubiak chooses Carr to be our QB, then it's a wasted pick in round 2. With that in mind, there is no way Young will fall out of the 1st round. The talent level between Young and Rodgers is quite large.

whiskeyrbl
03-11-2006, 02:25 AM
He won't fall past the Raiders at #7.

swtbound07
03-11-2006, 02:26 AM
its not a question of talent in my mind, its a question of musical chairs. Assuming teams dont double stack at the qb position, i find it hard to find a place that needs a qb 1st round bad, and 3 qb's that grade out extremely high (leinart, cutler, young)

Tennessee, detroit. both lack for qb's, mcnair is aging, and harrington is a bust

new orleans seems to be going for brees, oakland for culpepper. Shrugs...i could see it happening

The Dude Abides
03-11-2006, 02:27 AM
Miami would take him.

jerek
03-11-2006, 03:08 AM
Second round? Strictly for arguments sake?

I would think about it. My biggest beef with drafting Young is that we drop that #1 pick and foolish #1 salary on him, with Carr already in place. Just bad business, no how matter how you want to dice it.

I still think we can use the #2 better elsewhere, but were it feasible that Young drop to Round 2 (without some *big* bomb coming out of nowhere that many of us probably wouldn't be prepared to deal with, I am talking Marcus Vick type stupidity) ... were it feasible? I would give it a lot of thought.

Grid
03-11-2006, 03:25 AM
just FYI... the deal with Culpepper to Oakland fell through.. he is most likely going to Miami.


*edit* I also think that young is going to be a bust.. he may eventually be able to hack it as an average NFL QB..but I dont see him ever beeing a really good one..let alone a great one. So no..I wouldnt want him in the second either.

HJam72
03-11-2006, 05:25 AM
*edit* I also think that young is going to be a bust.. he may eventually be able to hack it as an average NFL QB..but I dont see him ever beeing a really good one..let alone a great one.

Oh how the mighty have fallen. :wow:

J-Storm
03-11-2006, 05:54 AM
It would still depend on what we addressed in the 1st round with our pick/s. If we addressed a need or two and he did happen to be available in the 2nd round, sure he could be worth it then... only if he fell that far for my liking though :twocents:

Bubbajwp
03-11-2006, 10:01 AM
I would without a doubt take him I guess it depends on who else falls out of the first round like Winston. But even if Kubiak has no doubt in his mind that Carr is his guy I would still take young and at least trade for a first round pick in next years draft to a team that needs a QB.

Spoda
03-11-2006, 11:53 AM
my problem would be if we somehow got vince in the 2nd round...the "fans" would be clammering for vince on every incompletion...not to mention a pick..every sack..i can hear the guy that sits next to me now..."put dat boy vince in der"... for 3 years he has said "put dat boy banks in der...carr garbage".....i wouldn't be able to take it

swtbound07
03-11-2006, 12:00 PM
it was just a strict hypothetical

disaacks3
03-11-2006, 01:48 PM
I can't imagine Vince falling that far, but...

To answer your question - No, we've got other positions that need addressing - Like a bonafide two-way (BLOCK & CATCH) TE, another quality DB, OL, we just cut our starting FS, etc. - Get a relatively 'polished' product prepared for the NFL system.

If he fell to the THIRD round, I'd say yes, because he's simply a phenomenal ATHLETE if nothing else and we could FIND some way to utilize his physical gifts.

:twocents: When you only show up at the combine ONLY to interview & take tests, it makes sense that you'd prepare for those TWO items. His "free-fall" was precipitated by making ONE bad choice...NOT a test answer, NOT an "everybody in a suit but me" White House appearance, but an inept agent!

"Real" agents came calling, but Vince's "loyalty" is already biting him in the rear on THIS decision.

Vinny
03-11-2006, 01:49 PM
No way Young falls out of the top 10. He is a better prospect than Steve McNair was coming out of Alcorn St.

aj.
03-11-2006, 02:04 PM
Nothing has happened to affect his football playing ability in the last several weeks - aside from working with Jerry Rhome which can't hurt - so I don't quite understand all the hysteria. Vince will be a high first rounder and his toolset puts him in the category of a new and improved version of Steve McNair.

MorKnolle
03-11-2006, 03:15 PM
Just an honest question. Most of the mock drafts i viewed last year had aaron rodgers not going anywhere higher than 10, when several teams had qb needs, and he and alex smith were the only 2 legitimate first round prospects (at qb, matt jones is something else). He fell to pick 26 i believe...dont quote me on the number. My point is this: with the jets, saints, raiders, and dolphins all rumored to be addressing their qb needs through free agency, and Vince's free fall post combine, hypothetically, I could see Vince Young lasting until the 1st pick of the 2nd round, With leinart going to tennessee, and cutler going to the lions...and nobody else with a pressing need for a qb as a first round pick. All of you people who think vince young isnt worth our pick, cant play in the NFL, david carr is the truth, etc. Would you take vince young in the 2nd round? Why or why not?

No, for one I think Vince would still go in the 1st, right now I'm thinking to the Cardinals at #10 (if Saints sign Drew Brees and Jets sign Patrick Ramsey after renegotiating Pennington, then Titans draft Matt Leinart, the Raiders draft Jay Cutler, Mike Martz won't try to bring Vince to the Lions to run his offense, then I think Dennis Green will take Vince and sit him behind Kurt Warner for the two years left on his contract) . If Vince does somehow fall to #33, it's because every team in the league sees pretty significant deficiencies in his passing game. If a QB of his size and athleticism (that, according to many people, is supposed to be worth considering at #1 overall) falls that far, then there must be several problems with his game to the extent where none of the teams in this league see him being good enough to be worth taking that risk.

I also think we have enough other issues on our team that we need to address and at #33 we're going to be able to find a 1st round quality player at one of those positions, so I would definitely want to fill one of those. Now if Vince somehow fell to the 3rd round, I'd consider drafting him, but I don't see him falling that far.

I would without a doubt take him I guess it depends on who else falls out of the first round like Winston. But even if Kubiak has no doubt in his mind that Carr is his guy I would still take young and at least trade for a first round pick in next years draft to a team that needs a QB.

If every team in the league passes on Vince in the 1st round, I don't see any team giving up next year's 1st round pick for him. I think the only QB the Texans will add this offseason is that veteran backup (I've heard they're bringing in Sage Rosenfels for a workout, and I don't see how he fulfills this role for them, but we'll have to see if he's the guy they decide to add).

my problem would be if we somehow got vince in the 2nd round...the "fans" would be clammering for vince on every incompletion...not to mention a pick..every sack..i can hear the guy that sits next to me now..."put dat boy vince in der"... for 3 years he has said "put dat boy banks in der...carr garbage".....i wouldn't be able to take it

I agree, Vince in the 2nd round will still bring all these potential problems with fans in the stadium, at least we wouldn't be using a #1 overall pick on him, but we still put Carr in a situation where the majority of the fans will be against him at his every mistake and constantly scrutinizing every success he has.

Texans_Chick
03-11-2006, 03:24 PM
No way Young falls out of the top 10. He is a better prospect than Steve McNair was coming out of Alcorn St.

And a better prospect than McNabb or Vick.

bigcarlos
03-11-2006, 03:27 PM
And a better prospect than McNabb or Vick.
True:superman:

MorKnolle
03-11-2006, 03:47 PM
And a better prospect than McNabb or Vick.

I'm not sure I could definitively say he's a better prospect than McNabb or Vick or even McNair, but they also came out in much deeper drafts. I also don't see Vince falling out of the top 10 (I currently have him at #10 to the Cardinals), but I see it as being much more likely with recent apparent developments in the free agency market.

Huge
03-11-2006, 05:18 PM
If he's at 18 and Dallas passes, I will burn Jerry Jones' house down.

HomeBred_Texan
03-11-2006, 07:11 PM
I could care less if he falls all the way to the 7th round as long as we dont waste a draft pick on him.

He is not worthy of being a Houston Texan yet..... :stirpot:

swtbound07
03-11-2006, 08:03 PM
worthy???? are you kidding me??? What in the world is that coming from?:brickwall

travfrancis
03-11-2006, 08:56 PM
sheesh, if hes not worthy of being a texan, then i hate to think how unworthy is to be a member of other teams in the league.

thunderkyss
03-11-2006, 09:11 PM
my problem would be if we somehow got vince in the 2nd round...the "fans" would be clammering for vince on every incompletion...not to mention a pick..every sack..i can hear the guy that sits next to me now..."put dat boy vince in der"... for 3 years he has said "put dat boy banks in der...carr garbage".....i wouldn't be able to take it


Better toughen up that hide fella........ with Vince or without, you'll hear it anyway........."put dat boy Ragone in thar... he won the NFL europe championship".........

swtbound07
03-11-2006, 10:37 PM
I agree, Vince in the 2nd round will still bring all these potential problems with fans in the stadium, at least we wouldn't be using a #1 overall pick on him, but we still put Carr in a situation where the majority of the fans will be against him at his every mistake and constantly scrutinizing every success he has.


So we dont pick up competition from carr because he will be forced into fan scrutiny??? Can his ego not take being analyzed? Because as a 1st overall draft pick, a supposed franchise qb, shouldnt be worried about fan scrutiny, that seems implied. Carr is in a situation of his own devices. If Carr was a pro-bowl quarterback, or even a .500 winning percentage caliber quarterback, i doubt we would even be having these discussions. I've tried to be tactfull about this, tried to debate intelligently, but you know what, Im just going to come out and say it. David Carr is a bust. You can preach potential to me all day long, but 2-14, 4-12, 5-11, 7-9, screams BUST to me. 18 wins. 46 losses. I dont care what you think Kubiak can do with him. I dont. Kubiak hasn't proved anything as a head coach. If your telling me, you pass on a phenominally talented player like Vince Young, far lower in the draft then where he should go, simply because the team LEADER couldnt handle the pressure and competition he would bring, then i say you dont have the right man leading your team. Drew Brees stepped up and turned it on when they drafted phillip rivers.

Texans_Chick
03-11-2006, 10:40 PM
I'm not sure I could definitively say he's a better prospect than McNabb or Vick or even McNair, but they also came out in much deeper drafts. I also don't see Vince falling out of the top 10 (I currently have him at #10 to the Cardinals), but I see it as being much more likely with recent apparent developments in the free agency market.


Hmmm....I don't know McNair's college stats but they would be hard to properly compare anyways because of the college competition, however, though these stats aren't perfect, looking prospect to prospect, I think that VY compares very favorably to Vick and McNabb as a prospect (not to mention the intangibles of the championship and competitiveness).

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6 5 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 60, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 62 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs


As for the draft depth, it is hard to really say how deep this draft is other than saying that the Vick draft was a really weak QB draft, and though the McNabb draft was deep with QBs, some teams picked wrong that year. Like Cincinnati and Cleveland (though I guess the argument can be made that they went to worse situations than McNabb did and never reallly had a good chance to succeed):

Akili Smith (last college season), Drafted 3rd, 63, 220 lbs

3763 passing yards
57.95 completion percentage
371 attempts for 215 completion , 10.1 av yards per attempt
32 passing TDs with 9 INTs
82 rushes for 184 yards, 2.2 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

Tim Couch (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6'4", 220 lbs

4611 passing yards
71.54 completion percentage
601 attempts for 430 completions, 7.7 av yards per attempt
38 passing TDs with 17 INTs
74 rushes for -116 yards, -1.5 av yards per attempt, 1 rushing TD


I can understand why people might not want the Texans to take VY, but I don't understand why people think that VY should plummet in this draft given that his QB stats kick most college QBs stats, even of the players who ended up having remarkable pro careers, and VY's college career was beyond remarkable.

MONARCH
03-11-2006, 11:02 PM
Greetings all....

Gentlemen, we are starting to see you sweat. And believe me, we have been watching......

You all know very well that VY is in know way, shape, or form, going to fall out of the very top two players upon draft day. Just what on earth will it take for you naysayers to finally stop playing your mind games upon this website?

Well, please allow me the opportunity to take the liberty to land you all a chance to get some sleep tonight........

......go ahead and whisper now.....very softly please.......close your eyes now.......and repeat after me......

Vince is coming home......Vince is coming home......GLORY HALLELUJAH, Vince is coming home.....
MONARCH

MorKnolle
03-11-2006, 11:35 PM
Hmmm....I don't know McNair's college stats but they would be hard to properly compare anyways because of the college competition, however, though these stats aren't perfect, looking prospect to prospect, I think that VY compares very favorably to Vick and McNabb as a prospect (not to mention the intangibles of the championship and competitiveness).

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6 5 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 60, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 62 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs


As for the draft depth, it is hard to really say how deep this draft is other than saying that the Vick draft was a really weak QB draft, and though the McNabb draft was deep with QBs, some teams picked wrong that year. Like Cincinnati and Cleveland (though I guess the argument can be made that they went to worse situations than McNabb did and never reallly had a good chance to succeed):

Akili Smith (last college season), Drafted 3rd, 63, 220 lbs

3763 passing yards
57.95 completion percentage
371 attempts for 215 completion , 10.1 av yards per attempt
32 passing TDs with 9 INTs
82 rushes for 184 yards, 2.2 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

Tim Couch (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6'4", 220 lbs

4611 passing yards
71.54 completion percentage
601 attempts for 430 completions, 7.7 av yards per attempt
38 passing TDs with 17 INTs
74 rushes for -116 yards, -1.5 av yards per attempt, 1 rushing TD


I can understand why people might not want the Texans to take VY, but I don't understand why people think that VY should plummet in this draft given that his QB stats kick most college QBs stats, even of the players who ended up having remarkable pro careers, and VY's college career was beyond remarkable.

Thanks for bringing up these stats again, haven't they been posted enough on this board already?

MorKnolle
03-11-2006, 11:36 PM
Greetings all....

Gentlemen, we are starting to see you sweat. And believe me, we have been watching......

You all know very well that VY is in know way, shape, or form, going to fall out of the very top two players upon draft day. Just what on earth will it take for you naysayers to finally stop playing your mind games upon this website?

Well, please allow me the opportunity to take the liberty to land you all a chance to get some sleep tonight........

......go ahead and whisper now.....very softly please.......close your eyes now.......and repeat after me......

Vince is coming home......Vince is coming home......GLORY HALLELUJAH, Vince is coming home.....
MONARCH

As I said before, seven weeks left to come to grips with the fact that Vince isn't coming here. 99% of the people in this country now realize it, come join the enlightened side.

tulexan
03-11-2006, 11:40 PM
Hmmm....I don't know McNair's college stats but they would be hard to properly compare anyways because of the college competition, however, though these stats aren't perfect, looking prospect to prospect, I think that VY compares very favorably to Vick and McNabb as a prospect (not to mention the intangibles of the championship and competitiveness).

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6 5 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 60, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 62 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs


As for the draft depth, it is hard to really say how deep this draft is other than saying that the Vick draft was a really weak QB draft, and though the McNabb draft was deep with QBs, some teams picked wrong that year. Like Cincinnati and Cleveland (though I guess the argument can be made that they went to worse situations than McNabb did and never reallly had a good chance to succeed):

Akili Smith (last college season), Drafted 3rd, 63, 220 lbs

3763 passing yards
57.95 completion percentage
371 attempts for 215 completion , 10.1 av yards per attempt
32 passing TDs with 9 INTs
82 rushes for 184 yards, 2.2 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

Tim Couch (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6'4", 220 lbs

4611 passing yards
71.54 completion percentage
601 attempts for 430 completions, 7.7 av yards per attempt
38 passing TDs with 17 INTs
74 rushes for -116 yards, -1.5 av yards per attempt, 1 rushing TD


I can understand why people might not want the Texans to take VY, but I don't understand why people think that VY should plummet in this draft given that his QB stats kick most college QBs stats, even of the players who ended up having remarkable pro careers, and VY's college career was beyond remarkable.


Since you have posted this several times, I will post my counter argument again.


Look at the respective talent surrounding all of those players. Vince had by far the best talent around him.

swtbound07
03-12-2006, 12:20 AM
Since you have posted this several times, I will post my counter argument again.


Look at the respective talent surrounding all of those players. Vince had by far the best talent around him.


So putting him on a team with NFL talent should work out okay, right?

Texans_Chick
03-12-2006, 12:27 AM
Thanks for bringing up these stats again, haven't they been posted enough on this board already?


I guess not given that you in particular keep making blanket unsubstantiated statements. If people keep making statements that are not evidence based, then I will just keep bringing up the facts.

BTW, I hadn't posted the Tim Couch stat before.

Texans_Chick
03-12-2006, 12:48 AM
Since you have posted this several times, I will post my counter argument again.


Look at the respective talent surrounding all of those players. Vince had by far the best talent around him.


And I will just point that out again as the beyondo weak argument it is.

Better players around you usually means facing better quality opposition. Worse players around you usually means that you faced lower quality opposition and/or didn't win against quality opponents. So is Lienart a bad QB because he had the best talent around him??? Is Cutler less talented because he didn't have quality coaching, had to be more of a gamemaker himself and didn't beat quality opponents?? You can make the arguments go every which away if you just don't want to accept the stats on their face.

Theoretically, being surrounded by a better athletes might mean that VY's stats are actually artificially low because he had to be pulled out of games faster and the RBs got more work early in games because the games got out of hand.

So much for good stats = good athletes around you, cuz that just doesn't follow.

Before the last season started, people thought that VY's passing numbers would plummet after his experienced receivers left and they were gonna be using a bunch of baby receivers. And he managed to make do, and now people are talking about this great talent when before the season they were talking about the inexperienced receiving corp.

If you want to knock a guy, you can come up with all sorts of reasons why they aint gonna be too good....

VY and Lienart--too much talent around them
Culpepper and McNair--Did well against poor college competition and inexperience in pro-style offense


I think there is a lot of overthinking going on and hyperanalysis.

VY has great stats, is a gamer and winner.
The facts say it and your eyes say it and the record says it.
He has done things that previous college QBs have not been able to do with such size and skill sets.
Maybe this suggests that the guy can just flat out play ball. Plain and simple. Why resist it? Why overanalyze it? Sometimes the thing that looks too good to be true is actually TRUE and not an illusion, you know what I'm sayin?

Maybe you can go into hyperflexive anti-VY mode as just a reaction to the hype and hyperbole that has been going on the other way, but it shouldn't cause you to overcompensate with your critiques.

I just bring up the actual facts to try to keep things reality based when people get a little loose with their opinions. I guess I'll keep posting them as long as people keep saying unsupported opinions.

tulexan
03-12-2006, 01:28 AM
Well obviously Vince isn't this once in a lifetime, too good to pass up talent who is going to revolutionize the game. If he was, his stock wouldn't be dropping like Enron in 2001.

And no, there isn't a grand conspiracy against Vince because the media hates Texas, or they are upset that Texas beat USC, or he is black, or any other outrageous claim some people on this message board are claiming.

Vince is a great player. He will probably be a good player several years from now once he sits, learns, and adapts his game to the NFL. The reason why he isn't a much better prospect than Vick or McNabb is because they were raw players too, but he is much more raw then they are. They also have much better mechanics than he do. Vince has a lot of potential, but also has a lot of risks. He could be a great player, he could be a perennial pro bowler, but he also could be an average QB or dare I say, a bust. Unbelievable, once in a life time prospects, aren't supposed to have more questions than positive notes about their game.

And surrounding talent is a major factor in a player's performance. I don't think that Vick or McNabb had the all world OL that Vince Young did. Neither team had the top ranked defense too. There is zero parity in the college game. You can and usually do, have teams that are bigger, faster, and stronger than their opponents (especially the Big 12 this year). Are you telling me that it isn't an advantage having a big WR who can literally jump over people for jump balls (like Texas had), or a great TE who can out muscle defenders and had great hands (like Texas had), or a stable of good RBs who are a threat during play actions (like Texas had and ran all the time), or an OL who will consistently give the QB 6, 7, and 8 seconds to decide what to do (like Texas had), or having a great defense that will give the offense great field position all of the time (like Texas had).

I'm not saying that McNabb and Vick had a bunch of scrubs around them, because both had some talented players on their teams, but there is a major difference in Texas getting a bunch of 5 star rated players every recruiting class and the rest being 4 star players and the occasional 3 star, and Virginia Tech being lucky to get one 5 star, and the rest being 4 star and below. I doubt that Syracuse had any 5 star players and was probably lucky to get a few 4 star players.

If you don't recognize that having a great supporting cast that is much better than the opponent's talent 90% of the time will greatly affect the performance and statistics of a QB then you are being delusional and blindly following Vince Young. But I know that you must be smarter than that and do recognize the affect that talent has on a team's performance in the college level.

DomDavis
03-12-2006, 01:51 AM
Well obviously Vince isn't this once in a lifetime, too good to pass up talent who is going to revolutionize the game. If he was, his stock wouldn't be dropping like Enron in 2001.

Who said it was? When he declared, most projected him at third overall. Many still project him there, and almost all mocks still have him top five. If there's a drop at all, it's an ever so slight drop, certainly not Enron in 2001. That's called hyperbole... or bias.

phan1
03-12-2006, 02:40 AM
VY falling to the 2nd round is just not possible IMO. While I don't see him going to the Titans like most people do (he'll slip down a little), there's just no way he falls to the 2nd round. Even as a pure freak of an athlete, he's a 1st rounder. Look at Matt Jones. And if he does fall there, we do pick this

infantrycak
03-12-2006, 08:54 AM
And I will just point that out again as the beyondo weak argument it is.

Better players around you usually means facing better quality opposition. Worse players around you usually means that you faced lower quality opposition...

I think I understand what you are saying here, but IMO you have overstated it so that this is off the mark. It is one thing to say McNair was not surrounded at Alcorn with great talent, but then again the talent he was playing against was not as high as what Vince Young faced. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is basically what you are getting at. Problem is it doesn't work for someone like say Reggie McNeal who definitely had less talent around him than VY, but played the same opposition as VY. In fact you could say McNeil played tougher competition because he had to face UT's D, while VY had to face A&M's D.

So much for good stats = good athletes around you, cuz that just doesn't follow.

You're right that there is no direct correlation to good stats equalling good athletes around you. On the other hand, it is
"beyondo weak" to act as if the surrounding context doesn't contribute to a player's success. The same RB will do better or worse depending on the quality of his OL. Every time you here a discussion of Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith it is noted that Sanders' accomplishments were behind a poor OL and Emmitt's were behind a great OL. For all VY's skill and leadership he wouldn't be the winner he is without a fantastic OL described as one of the top 2 in the country and a top D. That really is beyond refute and doesn't take anything at all away from VY. It is a team sport--if other parts of the team don't do as well, the team doesn't do as well. Looking at the team around a player is common sense.

Huge
03-12-2006, 09:04 AM
Since you have posted this several times, I will post my counter argument again.


Look at the respective talent surrounding all of those players. Vince had by far the best talent around him.
Look at the respective talent that Leinart and Bush have been surrounded with.

Has that been stopping all the Bush supporters from pointing out the number of 25+ yard plays, his yards per carry average, his all-purpose yards, etc.?

Can't have it both ways.

Coach C.
03-12-2006, 09:17 AM
why are you guys discussing VY. The guy is not coming here and will not come here till his plane lands or his new bentley drives him into the city limits from whatever team he lands with. Likely Oakland or Arizona. Dennis Green will have flashbacks of Randall Cunningham with this kid in two years.

swtbound07
03-12-2006, 09:36 AM
why are you guys discussing VY. The guy is not coming here and will not come here till his plane lands or his new bentley drives him into the city limits from whatever team he lands with. Likely Oakland or Arizona. Dennis Green will have flashbacks of Randall Cunningham with this kid in two years.


I hate to beat the dead horse that is my pet peeve, but what the heck do you know? Absolutely nothing more or less than the rest of us. You have no idea what the texans will or wont do. You dont work for them, and from everything we hear they have far from made up their minds. If you really had a handle on what was going on inside the organization, how come you werent touting the weaver signing weeks ago? Just stop speaking in absolutes about something that we really dont have a definitive answer about.

HomeBred_Texan
03-12-2006, 09:58 AM
AJ and D. Robinson are the only draft pick's that have been of value and they were a for sure can't miss draft pick, still not the caliber of V. Young but legit draft picks.
Are you kidding me? You need to lay off the booze and drugs. You need a reality check and get off of this Vince Young is God crap...

chuckm
03-12-2006, 10:20 AM
turp and monarch are the "are you crazy of course you draft Young!!!" new blood infusion that we need around here ... thunderkyss and big b 1 were starting to lose some momentum ...

disaacks3
03-12-2006, 10:20 AM
Look at the respective talent that Leinart and Bush have been surrounded with.

Has that been stopping all the Bush supporters from pointing out the number of 25+ yard plays, his yards per carry average, his all-purpose yards, etc.?

Can't have it both ways. You're right, they TOO were "surrounded" by talent on the Offensive side of the ball. Though more SKILL positions were stars in the USC system, whereas UT had a better LINE.

Despite that commonality....I don't hear many people claiming that Lineart is a "once in a lifetime" talent (despite a Heisman, despite playing for at least 1/2 a National Championship 3 years in a row). Nor do most think that Bush is ready to step in and take the full load away from DD yet.

Texans_Chick
03-12-2006, 11:04 AM
I think I understand what you are saying here, but IMO you have overstated it so that this is off the mark. It is one thing to say McNair was not surrounded at Alcorn with great talent, but then again the talent he was playing against was not as high as what Vince Young faced. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is basically what you are getting at. Problem is it doesn't work for someone like say Reggie McNeal who definitely had less talent around him than VY, but played the same opposition as VY. In fact you could say McNeil played tougher competition because he had to face UT's D, while VY had to face A&M's D.



You're right that there is no direct correlation to good stats equalling good athletes around you. On the other hand, it is
"beyondo weak" to act as if the surrounding context doesn't contribute to a player's success. The same RB will do better or worse depending on the quality of his OL. Every time you here a discussion of Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith it is noted that Sanders' accomplishments were behind a poor OL and Emmitt's were behind a great OL. For all VY's skill and leadership he wouldn't be the winner he is without a fantastic OL described as one of the top 2 in the country and a top D. That really is beyond refute and doesn't take anything at all away from VY. It is a team sport--if other parts of the team don't do as well, the team doesn't do as well. Looking at the team around a player is common sense.


Certainly the context of the players around a player matter, but to just to completely dismiss VYs astounding stats by just saying he has the best players around him is just weak, and that is all I was really intending to say.

I was just making the point that you can spin things anyway you want to if your intent is to slam a player. I just find it funny that people that would otherwise pay attention to various stats choose to completely ignore some pretty sick ones just because they don't suit their point of view.

Chris Simms had some pretty good teammates around him and these are his final year stats:

Chris Simms (last college season) drafted 3rd round, 6'4", 220 lbs

3207 passing yards
59.3 percent completion percentage
396 attempts, 235 completions, 8.1 yards per attempt
26 TDs, 12 INTs
70 rushes for -124 yards, -1.8 yard average, 4 TDs


And as it is a team game, and people keep on bringing up Texas' line, though the line was pretty good, it is also possible that a QB with VY's skill set made that line look better. Hard to all-out rush when you have to contain a guy who can get in the secondary as fast as VY can.

Personally, I do not think the Texans will take VY. But this is not to say that he isn't a remarkable prospect, and looking at his college stats, size and skill sets, it is really hard to compare him to anyone else. Whatever the draft boards say.

Personally, I find it amazing to see how much better VY's college stats were over other college QBs who were drafted high in previous drafts. Even though he was out of the 4th quarter of a lot of games.

Maybe I am just easy to impress or something.

Texans_Chick
03-12-2006, 11:16 AM
[B]Despite that commonality....I don't hear many people claiming that Lineart is a "once in a lifetime" talent (despite a Heisman, despite playing for at least 1/2 a National Championship 3 years in a row).

Because Leinart is a traditional pocket passer and doesn't have the gaudy running stats to go along with the solid passing stats. Carson Palmer, Part II. Not bad.

nunusguy
03-12-2006, 11:29 AM
You have no idea what the texans will or wont do. You dont work for them, and from everything we hear they have far from made up their minds.
Coach is obviously right on the money with these comments. My question is, why do you and your UT pals keep deluding your thoughts with these false hope about VY landing in Houston ?

Texans_Chick
03-12-2006, 11:35 AM
Coach is obviously right on the money with these comments. My question is, why do you and your UT pals keep deluding your thoughts with these false hope about VY landing in Houston ?

I don't think that VY will fall to the second round, nor do I think that the Texans will be choosing him, but really nobody knows.

swtbound07
03-12-2006, 11:41 AM
Coach is obviously right on the money with these comments. My question is, why do you and your UT pals keep deluding your thoughts with these false hope about VY landing in Houston ?


Im not a UT homer...i say much the same thing to anybody speaking of any player as an absolute, from reggie to vince to dbrick. He's not on the money with anything, he's just guessing like the rest of us. Its an unknown, why bash somebody for what they think will happen? Its all 50/50, and his opinion is no more valid than mine.

infantrycak
03-12-2006, 12:16 PM
Certainly the context of the players around a player matter, but to just to completely dismiss VYs astounding stats by just saying he has the best players around him is just weak, and that is all I was really intending to say.

Absolutely agree VY's stats should not be dismissed.

Because Leinart is a traditional pocket passer and doesn't have the gaudy running stats to go along with the solid passing stats. Carson Palmer, Part II. Not bad.

See, this is where things start sounding way overhyped for VY IMO. Leinart isn't in consideration because he is Carson Palmer, part II and therefore not bad but (by implication) no VY. Carson Palmer passed for 3800yds last year 38 TD's and a passer rating of 101--one of only two QB's (Manning is the other) with a QB rating over 100. That's way beyond not bad and if folks are having a real discussion of QB's, anyone who could be as not bad as Carson Palmer should be in the mix rather than dismissed out of hand.

stevo3883
03-12-2006, 03:31 PM
Absolutely agree VY's stats should not be dismissed.



See, this is where things start sounding way overhyped for VY IMO. Leinart isn't in consideration because he is Carson Palmer, part II and therefore not bad but (by implication) no VY. Carson Palmer passed for 3800yds last year 38 TD's and a passer rating of 101--one of only two QB's (Manning is the other) with a QB rating over 100. That's way beyond not bad and if folks are having a real discussion of QB's, anyone who could be as not bad as Carson Palmer should be in the mix rather than dismissed out of hand.

personally i dont think Palmer is a good comparison. Palmer has physical tools Leinart just will never have.

Leinart plays the game a lot like chad pennington. he has great accuracy, makes few mental mistakes. he manages games well and can find the holes. but I dont see the "throw for 300 & 4td's" aspect in him like in brady or palmer. that comparison isnt a knock though because pennington is a great qb.

Huge
03-12-2006, 03:58 PM
You're right, they TOO were "surrounded" by talent on the Offensive side of the ball. Though more SKILL positions were stars in the USC system, whereas UT had a better LINE.

Despite that commonality....I don't hear many people claiming that Lineart is a "once in a lifetime" talent (despite a Heisman, despite playing for at least 1/2 a National Championship 3 years in a row). Nor do most think that Bush is ready to step in and take the full load away from DD yet.
Texas had 2 players from their OL that are eligible for the draft (Scott and Allen). Scott now projects as a 2nd rounder. Allen might go 2nd day.

Justin Blalock will go 1st round in '07.
Kasey Studdard might go 1st day in '07.
Lyle Sendelein will probably go 2nd day in '07.

USC had 3 players from their OL that are eligible for the draft (Justice, Lutui, and Matua). Justice is projecting 1st round. Lutui is projected 1st day. Matua is projected 1st/2nd day.

Sam Baker will go 1st day in '07...first round '08.
Ryan Kalil will go 2nd day in '07.

I think there's an obvious gap between the talent at the skill positions. Are you telling me there's an equally obvious gap between the offensive lines? I don't see it.

Most have said Leinart would've gone #1 overall last year as a Jr. That's a pretty big compliment. He doesn't blow you away with his physical abilities but that doesn't detract what he brings to the table.

thunderkyss
03-12-2006, 04:33 PM
Absolutely agree VY's stats should not be dismissed.



See, this is where things start sounding way overhyped for VY IMO. Leinart isn't in consideration because he is Carson Palmer, part II and therefore not bad but (by implication) no VY. Carson Palmer passed for 3800yds last year 38 TD's and a passer rating of 101--one of only two QB's (Manning is the other) with a QB rating over 100. That's way beyond not bad and if folks are having a real discussion of QB's, anyone who could be as not bad as Carson Palmer should be in the mix rather than dismissed out of hand.


I worked the numbers a week or so ago. As good as you may think Lienart is, he looks more like a poor man's David Carr. If you extrapolate Vince's numbers to match Lienarts attempts, Vince would actually have come out better...... well for throwing yards his college season. I think it is reasonable to do so, since Vince did sit the 4th quarter of most of his games. Not because he couldn't handle it, but because he(and UT) blew opponents out.

3000/1000..... yes, it is once in a lifetime....... never been done before......


Is Vince coming to Houston.... I don't know....... really, I don't know. But I hope he does...

swtbound07
03-12-2006, 04:39 PM
I hope so too.....a poor man's david carr? man thats really poor. I think years from now, history will vindicate me in the vince young vs. reggie bush debate. And all of the David Carr fans will be saying "well, there is no way we could have known he wasnt the answer". Yes, you can. I know this now. I cant say it any plainer.....mark me down on the reggie bush-bust, vince young-superstar, david carr-already washed up board. Anybody wanna bet money?

Texans_Chick
03-12-2006, 05:37 PM
Absolutely agree VY's stats should not be dismissed.



See, this is where things start sounding way overhyped for VY IMO. Leinart isn't in consideration because he is Carson Palmer, part II and therefore not bad but (by implication) no VY. Carson Palmer passed for 3800yds last year 38 TD's and a passer rating of 101--one of only two QB's (Manning is the other) with a QB rating over 100. That's way beyond not bad and if folks are having a real discussion of QB's, anyone who could be as not bad as Carson Palmer should be in the mix rather than dismissed out of hand.


Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6 5 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Matt Leinart (last college season), Drafted ???? 6'5", 225 lbs

3815 passing yards
65.7 completion percentage
431 attempts for 283 completions, 13.5 av yards per attempt
28 passing TDs with 8 INTs
51 rushes for 36 yards, .7 av yards per attempt, 6 rushing TDs

Carlson Palmer (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6'6, 230 lbs

3942 passing yards
63.2% completion percentage
489 attempts for 309 completions, 8.06 av yards per attempt
33 passing TDs with 10 INTs
50 rushes for -122 yards, av -2.4 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs



Sorry I was a little flippant about my "not bad" comment. I can see Matt Leinart being Carson Palmer Part II--this, of course, would be most team's dreams.

Personally, the reason why I don't think that Leinart is part of the Texans conversation, other than the fact that we seemed to be hitched to the Carr train, is that he doesn't seem to offer anything more to the table than Carr does.

Very gaudy college pocket passer stats. Do I think he will be better than Carr--who knows, but statistically, their college stats are similar--fat completion percentages, lots of yards, not much rushing.

Carr has had to run in the NFL, not by design, but basically for his life.

VY, whether you think he would be a good fit for the Texans or not, has abilities that are measurably different than Leinart/Carr, crazy enough ones to maybe think that it might be worth chucking the time investment that you have in Carr's potential upside (and foregoing the opportunity costs of picking someone else).

Ronnie Brown was drafted second in last year's draft and was the first RB taken. In 2002, his greatest yard gaining year as a RB, he ran for 1008 yards in 175 attempts, averaging 5.8 yards per attempt and 8 TDs. VY as a QB ran for more yards, more TDs in less attempts AND had as a QB had the best regular season completion percentage. (Heck, VY had more rushing yards than Bush last yearm tho I don't want to :stirpot: because I think he will be a great player).

Do I think we will draft VY--no. But you asked why Leinart's name isn't being thrown around much as it relates to the Texans and I am thinking that it is: 1. He doesn't offer you anything different than what Carr brings*; 2. Obviously, there is the hometown connection that some of the general public fans care about.

There may be a debate about whether someone with VY's skill set can succeed in the NFL, a league that wants to plug and play their QBs. But certainly, there are not really good comparisons to VY, and it is hard to project someone who has sick QB stats and also stats that would make a lot of running backs green with envy.

It just should cause GMs in the league some pause if they pass this sort of player up. You just don't see this combo of size and skill sets. At least I haven't--with my eyes or checking out stats.







*Based on potential. Read Carr's old scouting reports before he was drafted.

HomeBred_Texan
03-12-2006, 06:15 PM
Look, I watched several UT games. Vince had a bad habit of lobbing the ball up for grabs and his RECEIVER made the plays. Not VY. Go back and watch the film if you dont beleive me. We should be trying to get UT's reciever, not Vince Young. He will warm a bench for 2 years before he is NFL caliber...:stirpot:

Huge
03-12-2006, 09:45 PM
Every QB lobs the ball up to his playmaking receivers. The only TD Leinart threw in the Rose Bowl was a jump ball to Jarrett which wasn't even in the endzone. Jarrett had to get the final few yards himself. If you have those players at your disposal, you'd be stupid not to take advantage of it.

Now if the majority of his passes were of this nature, then you'd have an argument. Unfortunately for those that think this, there's visual evidence that refutes that belief. Just ask...

Huge
03-12-2006, 09:49 PM
Almost forgot...

If he does warm the bench for two years before he's ready, I guess that'd put him in the same company with:
Steve Young
John Elway
Carson Palmer
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Rich Gannon

Among others.

Now some of those are merely Pro Bowlers. Others are Hall of Famers and Super Bowl MVP's.

kbourda
03-12-2006, 09:54 PM
Look at the respective talent that Leinart and Bush have been surrounded with.

Has that been stopping all the Bush supporters from pointing out the number of 25+ yard plays, his yards per carry average, his all-purpose yards, etc.?

Can't have it both ways.

Thank you for taking the words out of my mouth.

kbourda
03-12-2006, 09:56 PM
turp and monarch are the "are you crazy of course you draft Young!!!" new blood infusion that we need around here ... thunderkyss and big b 1 were starting to lose some momentum ...

I don't think they have lost any momentum. There are still Young supporters on this board. Believe it or not.

swtbound07
03-12-2006, 11:23 PM
I don't think they have lost any momentum. There are still Young supporters on this board. Believe it or not.


I believe it....my avatar isnt a coincidence

thunderkyss
03-12-2006, 11:36 PM
Almost forgot...

If he does warm the bench for two years before he's ready, I guess that'd put him in the same company with:
Steve Young
John Elway
Carson Palmer
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Rich Gannon

Among others.

Now some of those are merely Pro Bowlers. Others are Hall of Famers and Super Bowl MVP's.


Bret Favre...... you forgot Bret Favre...

I guess those guys weren't as NFL ready as Lienart......

stonedtexansfan
03-13-2006, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by Huge
Almost forgot...

If he does warm the bench for two years before he's ready, I guess that'd put him in the same company with:
Steve Young
John Elway
Carson Palmer
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Rich Gannon

Among others.

Now some of those are merely Pro Bowlers. Others are Hall of Famers and Super Bowl MVP's.

Bret Favre...... you forgot Bret Favre...

I guess those guys weren't as NFL ready as Lienart......

Bret Farve only sat for 1 year, before starting in his second. Same for Tom Brady. Peyton Manning took every snap in his rookie year, his brother started half way thro. Steve McNair sat behind Chris Chandler a few years. Mark Brunall sat behind Bret Farve, as did Matt Hassleback and Aaron Brooks. Mike Vick sat a while then started, while Troy Aikman took his licks his rookie year. Look at Big Ben who started as a rookie. You can argue sit vs. play for days and neither person get anywhere. VY will need to seat, but not on the Texans bench.

threetoedpete
03-13-2006, 01:35 AM
Second round? Strictly for arguments sake?

I would think about it. My biggest beef with drafting Young is that we drop that #1 pick and foolish #1 salary on him, with Carr already in place. Just bad business, no how matter how you want to dice it.

I still think we can use the #2 better elsewhere, but were it feasible that Young drop to Round 2 (without some *big* bomb coming out of nowhere that many of us probably wouldn't be prepared to deal with, I am talking Marcus Vick type stupidity) ... were it feasible? I would give it a lot of thought.

Agreed: I don't hate VY. I'm very grateful for the NC. However, it's going to take a LOT of hard work. He isn't ready yet. Anyone tellin you he is is full of dung. Look at the Balyor, OkSt. and Kansas games anyone can see it. He has the chance to something very special. It's just going to be aweful hard in the win now NFL for an organazation to plunk 70 mill down on a very polsihed maybe. However, a 2 and 10 mill, that's a little different. I'd take the gamble in the second. After we had one of the top five guys locked with the one. I'm not talkin' RB either. I'm talkin' a pro bowl type guy who will give the team a very high prfomance for many years...Brick, Hawk, I don't like Mario.., Huff, or Davis( anything that runs 4.38 IS your #2 WR and will absolutely kill Dungie's two deep zone) . Lot of very good football players between 32 and 60. I'd do it. But wouldn't surprise me if we passed on him in the second also.

threetoedpete
03-13-2006, 02:06 AM
Hmmm....I don't know McNair's college stats but they would be hard to properly compare anyways because of the college competition, however, though these stats aren't perfect, looking prospect to prospect, I think that VY compares very favorably to Vick and McNabb as a prospect (not to mention the intangibles of the championship and competitiveness).

I can understand why people might not want the Texans to take VY, but I don't understand why people think that VY should plummet in this draft given that his QB stats kick most college QBs stats, even of the players who ended up having remarkable pro careers, and VY's college career was beyond remarkable.

Ok,with guys running wide open he gets the ball there with very nice touch. Deep down the feild ect, ect... But, in the NFL there are not a lot of occasions that guys are wide open. Third and seven and you got to stick it in a one foot window, with a reciever bracketed front and back, within two point five seconds..., from under center, not the shotgun.... that's different. Vinny believes he's a lock to make the transition. And I'm saying Vinniy's full of it. So is McClain. And if it was their money, they'd pass the guy by also. VY delivery is so inconsistant that you never know from game to game when you're going to get one of his high and sailin' balls for the whole game. And that's not sometimes. It happens a lot. In college his legs got him though. But this ain't college. He's improved alot since his freshman year. But till he fixes his mechanics he'll be a loose canon. And no one in the NFL is going to pay 40 plus millon for a loose cannon. No One ! Especailly when the guy is saying publicly that his mechanics are fine. So what you got here is a guy who can run like a deer with a decent arm and absolutly horrible mechanics for a passer, who hasn't got a clue. There's a reason that little sheet in Green Bay from Mississippi has two supper bowl rings and all of those come back wins. His mechnics are perfect and he can knock a fly out of the air at seven yards. He can thread a ball between four guys at third and longwith people draped all over his reciever. VY may never be able to.

swtbound07
03-13-2006, 02:36 AM
Ok,with guys running wide open he gets the ball there with very nice touch. Deep down the feild ect, ect... But, in the NFL there are not a lot of occasions that guys are wide open. Third and seven and you got to stick it in a one foot window, with a reciever bracketed front and back, within two point five seconds..., from under center, not the shotgun.... that's different. Vinny believes he's a lock to make the transition. And I'm saying Vinniy's full of it. So is McClain. And if it was their money, they'd pass the guy by also. VY delivery is so inconsistant that you never know from game to game when you're going to get one of his high and sailin' balls for the whole game. And that's not sometimes. It happens a lot. In college his legs got him though. But this ain't college. He's improved alot since his freshman year. But till he fixes his mechanics he'll be a loose canon. And no one in the NFL is going to pay 40 plus millon for a loose cannon. No One ! Especailly when the guy is saying publicly that his mechanics are fine. So what you got here is a guy who can run like a deer with a decent arm and absolutly horrible mechanics for a passer, who hasn't got a clue. There's a reason that little sheet in Green Bay from Mississippi has two supper bowl rings and all of those come back wins. His mechnics are perfect and he can knock a fly out of the air at seven yards. He can thread a ball between four guys at third and longwith people draped all over his reciever. VY may never be able to.

Not a chance in the world. If it was my money, it wouldnt be going to david carr. It wouldnt go to reggie bust.

One small point...i BET somebody does give the man his 40 mill

Big B Texan Fan
03-13-2006, 02:56 AM
turp and monarch are the "are you crazy of course you draft Young!!!" new blood infusion that we need around here ... thunderkyss and big b 1 were starting to lose some momentum ...
Yeah, those guys got me fired up.
I'm back!!!
VY rocks!!
Carr Sucks!!!
:headbang:
Ha hahahahahahah.

I just read all the posts and found myself laughing at some, cringing at some others, and just flat-out skipping some after a few sentences (Morknolle). I mean threetoedpete said that B. Favre has 2 SB rings. Get it straight, he has 1 ring with another appearance.

TexansChick, keep up the stat work, I love reading it every time

chuckm, keep up the banter, I almost fell out of my chair whan I read your post.


Look guys, bottomline (how many times has someone said that:brickwall ), VY:
1. will not be a bust
2. will not need 2 1/2-3 seasons to develope
3. struggle with snaps from under center
4. be a loose cannon
5. have trouble with an NFL playbook

Just face it, this is the million dollar question right now. After Carrs, VY's, and Bush's career's are over with, we'll know the answer then.

To the VY fans. Do we really want him to play for this "deer in the headlights", losing oranization? I want him to from a selfish standpoint, but in all honesty......NO!!!! I'd much rather see him go to an organization with a winning tradition or one with with winning on their radar screen. I've heard AZ might take a gander his way if available and with Edge, Fitzgerald, Bolden, and Coach Green along with that new stadium and possibly new uniforms (same name though, rumored). That'd be cool. I've heard the Rams might be interested. The Greatest Show on Turf Part II......Could you imagine Steven Jackson, Holt, Bruce, Faulk, and VY.....Holy Playoffs Batman.

Come draft day, I'll be prepared for the worse but ready. And wherever he may land I'll become an automatic fan of that team. I'll still be a fan of the Texans, but I'll be the worst kind. I'll be the one you hate. The one that will point out all the bad things in this forum and on talk radio. It'll take a playoff season to get me to shut-up. Go ahead with your "you're not a true fan crap". So. The organization isn't a true fan of winning.

And yes jerek, I've got your $50 bucks in non-sequential bills ready along with some other swag that I may give you as well.

thunderkyss
03-13-2006, 08:24 AM
I'll still be a Texans fan, maybe not the worst kind, but pretty bad....

but when we're loosing games, and looking for a starting QB in two years...... I'll be the one saying, " I hate to say I told you so....... well, actually I don't hate it... but I told so"

And while it's hard for some of you to contemplate, I'm basing this on David Carr's play, not our 2-14 record. Watching Carr, and judging how he handled situations...... more often than not, he did exactly what you wouldn't expect a 4 year starter to do. It'd be nice, if NFL teams didn't blitz so well, but they do. Yeah, Manning got it handed to him..... so did Plummer. But you won't see too many teams trying that crap with Indy.... most teams aren't good enough to beat that line, and Manning. Manning will pick apart most NFL teams. He couldn't beat the SB Champs....... big deal.

Carr get's beat by the Rams..... the 49ers.... the worst teams(other than the Texans that is) in the league.

chuckm
03-13-2006, 09:24 AM
To the VY fans. Do we really want him to play for this "deer in the headlights", losing oranization? I want him to from a selfish standpoint, but in all honesty......NO!!!! I'd much rather see him go to an organization with a winning tradition or one with with winning on their radar screen. I've heard AZ might take a gander his way if available and with Edge, Fitzgerald, Bolden, and Coach Green along with that new stadium and possibly new uniforms (same name though, rumored). That'd be cool.


I just looked up "deer in the headlights, losing organization" in my dictionary and found a picture of Bill Bidwell ....

Texans_Chick
03-13-2006, 09:56 AM
I just looked up "deer in the headlights, losing organization" in my dictionary and found a picture of Bill Bidwell ....


LOL!!


To the VY fans. Do we really want him to play for this "deer in the headlights", losing oranization? I want him to from a selfish standpoint, but in all honesty......NO!!!! I'd much rather see him go to an organization with a winning tradition or one with with winning on their radar screen. I've heard AZ might take a gander his way if available and with Edge, Fitzgerald, Bolden, and Coach Green along with that new stadium and possibly new uniforms (same name though, rumored). That'd be cool. I've heard the Rams might be interested. The Greatest Show on Turf Part II......Could you imagine Steven Jackson, Holt, Bruce, Faulk, and VY.....Holy Playoffs Batman.

Come draft day, I'll be prepared for the worse but ready. And wherever he may land I'll become an automatic fan of that team. I'll still be a fan of the Texans, but I'll be the worst kind. I'll be the one you hate. The one that will point out all the bad things in this forum and on talk radio. It'll take a playoff season to get me to shut-up. Go ahead with your "you're not a true fan crap". So. The organization isn't a true fan of winning.

I like VY. I think he will be a great player. I will definitely keep an eye on his career.

That being said, life is too short to be just a toldyouso fan. For me at least, being a fan is giving up your heart to the team, even if it means it gets stomped on from time to time. But I guess people can be fans in different ways.

And BTW, it is quite possible that Bush has an amazing career with the Texans. So lets just go for a ride.

:texflag:

jerek
03-13-2006, 10:26 AM
I hate to beat the dead horse that is my pet peeve, but what the heck do you know? Absolutely nothing more or less than the rest of us. You have no idea what the texans will or wont do. You dont work for them, and from everything we hear they have far from made up their minds. If you really had a handle on what was going on inside the organization, how come you werent touting the weaver signing weeks ago? Just stop speaking in absolutes about something that we really dont have a definitive answer about.

I hope so too.....a poor man's david carr? man thats really poor. I think years from now, history will vindicate me in the vince young vs. reggie bush debate. And all of the David Carr fans will be saying "well, there is no way we could have known he wasnt the answer". Yes, you can. I know this now. I cant say it any plainer.....mark me down on the reggie bush-bust, vince young-superstar, david carr-already washed up board. Anybody wanna bet money?

How ironic what you "know" ... and yet all of these other "experts" out there are divided on the issue ... and then when Coach C tells you he "knows" we are not drafting Vince (which, IMO, is far more assured than the sort of "automatic" NFL success you and others ascribe to Vince) ... you throw a hissy fit.

And out of curiousity, how was he supposed to tout the Weaver signing weeks ago? They brought the guy in over the weekend, even if they had it scheduled weeks ago, there was nothing certain about his signing then, now was there? Esp with the ongoing CBA-talks? Coach C could be Charley's brother or he could be a librarian's aide, but way to attack his omniscience there, buddy.

Hypocrisy? Is that you?

Yeah, those guys got me fired up.

I'm back!!!
VY rocks!!
Carr Sucks!!!

Ha hahahahahahah.

I just read all the posts and found myself laughing at some, cringing at some others, and just flat-out skipping some after a few sentences (Morknolle). I mean threetoedpete said that B. Favre has 2 SB rings. Get it straight, he has 1 ring with another appearance.

TexansChick, keep up the stat work, I love reading it every time

chuckm, keep up the banter, I almost fell out of my chair whan I read your post.

Look guys, bottomline (how many times has someone said that ), VY:
1. will not be a bust
2. will not need 2 1/2-3 seasons to develope
3. struggle with snaps from under center
4. be a loose cannon
5. have trouble with an NFL playbook

Just face it, this is the million dollar question right now. After Carrs, VY's, and Bush's career's are over with, we'll know the answer then.

To the VY fans. Do we really want him to play for this "deer in the headlights", losing oranization? I want him to from a selfish standpoint, but in all honesty......NO!!!! I'd much rather see him go to an organization with a winning tradition or one with with winning on their radar screen. I've heard AZ might take a gander his way if available and with Edge, Fitzgerald, Bolden, and Coach Green along with that new stadium and possibly new uniforms (same name though, rumored). That'd be cool. I've heard the Rams might be interested. The Greatest Show on Turf Part II......Could you imagine Steven Jackson, Holt, Bruce, Faulk, and VY.....Holy Playoffs Batman.

Come draft day, I'll be prepared for the worse but ready. And wherever he may land I'll become an automatic fan of that team. I'll still be a fan of the Texans, but I'll be the worst kind. I'll be the one you hate. The one that will point out all the bad things in this forum and on talk radio. It'll take a playoff season to get me to shut-up. Go ahead with your "you're not a true fan crap". So. The organization isn't a true fan of winning.

And yes jerek, I've got your $50 bucks in non-sequential bills ready along with some other swag that I may give you as well.

At least you're honest. And I appreciate the timely payoff.

Big B Texan Fan
03-13-2006, 12:17 PM
How ironic what you "know" ... and yet all of these other "experts" out there are divided on the issue ... and then when Coach C tells you he "knows" we are not drafting Vince (which, IMO, is far more assured than the sort of "automatic" NFL success you and others ascribe to Vince) ... you throw a hissy fit.

And out of curiousity, how was he supposed to tout the Weaver signing weeks ago? They brought the guy in over the weekend, even if they had it scheduled weeks ago, there was nothing certain about his signing then, now was there? Esp with the ongoing CBA-talks? Coach C could be Charley's brother or he could be a librarian's aide, but way to attack his omniscience there, buddy.

Hypocrisy? Is that you?



At least you're honest. And I appreciate the timely payoff.
What about 5 rolls of quarters??

jerek
03-13-2006, 01:21 PM
What about 5 rolls of quarters??

If a bank will take them, I'm good.

100 rolls of pennies? That would be just hateful. :)

Dr. Toro
03-13-2006, 01:42 PM
There's a reason that little sheet in Green Bay from Mississippi has two supper bowl rings and all of those come back wins. His mechnics are perfect and he can knock a fly out of the air at seven yards. He can thread a ball between four guys at third and longwith people draped all over his reciever. VY may never be able to.

Favre is great, but that big arm ain't a be-all-end-all. It's gotten him into a lot of trouble, too. For every rocket armed great qb, there's a great who is accurate, makes the right decisions, and has great touch and vision. For some guys, 'weaknesses' can be strengths and 'tools' can create problems. It's all about how the athlete utilises the skills. The same can be said for VY's legs. Earlier in his career, that tool hindered his development as a QB... witness all the gaudy jukes and cutbacks to the middle from his fr. year. Now, he seldom goes down, gets to the corner, and runs out of bounds.

Let's not criticise VY for hitting wide open receivers, two things are happening there; a)his legs are helping guys get open b) he's spotting them. I think VY's vision is underrated. What impresses me about VY is how he has a) learned to efficiently utilise his legs b) improve his relative weaknesses, passing, decision making c) compensate for lack of a rocket favre-cutler-elway arm. Again, its nice to fit that ball into a tiny window, but it's equally important to create favorable down and distance situations and to create/find bigger windows. Those things aren't as easily measured and are generally underappreciated.

I think this talk about VY not fitting it into windows is a little overblown. I have never seen a college qb do a better job of placing the ball to the corner/sideline/endline of the redzone where only the receiver can get it. This is something he developed in 2005, and we are not talking aboout jump balls... perfect passes. Check out the prspect videos to see it. About 10 of his TD passes were like this... it's a trend, not an accident. He almost did it on that last rose bowl td drive

Certainly, guys like carr/cutler make some throws VY can't make, but he makes some throws that nobody else can make.

Huge
03-13-2006, 06:08 PM
Bret Farve only sat for 1 year, before starting in his second. Same for Tom Brady. Peyton Manning took every snap in his rookie year, his brother started half way thro. Steve McNair sat behind Chris Chandler a few years. Mark Brunall sat behind Bret Farve, as did Matt Hassleback and Aaron Brooks. Mike Vick sat a while then started, while Troy Aikman took his licks his rookie year. Look at Big Ben who started as a rookie. You can argue sit vs. play for days and neither person get anywhere. VY will need to seat, but not on the Texans bench.
Brett Favre's 2nd season statistics:
302/471, 3227 yards, 18 TDs, 13 INTs, 85.3 rating

He built on that glorious second season by following it up with this one...
318/522, 3303 yards, 19 TDs, 24 INTs, 72.2 rating

I think you're confusing "starting" with "being NFL ready". Just because you're doing one doesn't mean you're the other (see David Carr).

In other words, if a team draft Vince and starts him from day one, would you say that makes him "NFL ready" regardless of how he performs? Based on your criteria, he's "NFL ready"...right?

uhcougar08
03-13-2006, 06:24 PM
The bottom reason why I wouldnt take him at all is because of his inability to read defenses. This one point, I forgot where I read this, but I did. He struggled reading defenses between his Soph and Junior years, so Mack Brown made a great decision for the college game. He told Young he had three choices at the line.
1. Pass to his two given receivers.
2. Hand the ball off.
3. Run like an Elk.
This was very smart, and we can see the results. The fact of him not being able to read defenses, scares the crap out of me. For this reason, I would not take him with our 5th round pick. That's all I gotta say about that.

stonedtexansfan
03-13-2006, 11:40 PM
Brett Favre's 2nd season statistics:
302/471, 3227 yards, 18 TDs, 13 INTs, 85.3 rating

He built on that glorious second season by following it up with this one...
318/522, 3303 yards, 19 TDs, 24 INTs, 72.2 rating

I think you're confusing "starting" with "being NFL ready". Just because you're doing one doesn't mean you're the other (see David Carr).

In other words, if a team draft Vince and starts him from day one, would you say that makes him "NFL ready" regardless of how he performs? Based on your criteria, he's "NFL ready"...right?

I dont think he's NFL ready at this time. But his new coach/GM/owner might think he is and puts him out there. I was tryin to state that different QB's have been handled different ways and either they work out or bust. We wont know with with the QBs until the end of his career. And we dont really know if Carr was NFL ready or not since in his first season he got sacked more than any one else in NFL history. We'll just have to see how VY ends up.

infantrycak
03-14-2006, 12:28 AM
3000/1000..... yes, it is once in a lifetime....... never been done before......

I haven't done the research on this one, but this little stat may be a product of hype rather than reality. One of the guys on 610 am said that the comparison on this for everyone prior to VY was done without any post season. VY didn't reach either 3000 or 1000 during the regular season. They didn't seem to know if anyone had previously done it including their post-season as VY certainly did, but without knowing that the statement is apples and oranges. It is a fantastic achievement regardless of whether someone has done it before.

jerek
03-14-2006, 10:03 AM
Not a chance in the world. If it was my money, it wouldnt be going to david carr. It wouldnt go to reggie bust.

One small point...i BET somebody does give the man his 40 mill

Just for the record, I doubt it ... unless Vince goes to the Titans, he is falling to the Cardinals ... possibly the Raiders ... and in either case he won't command 40 mil.

jerek
03-14-2006, 10:51 AM
As far as the Titans, I spent some time browsing their boards (http://www.titansonline.com/fan_zone/message_board/index.php), and it is interesting to see that many (though certainly not all: I would guess that about half) of their fans are looking to replace McNair, either because they believe his game is finished or simply because they think he is getting old and it is time to groom the replacement.

That said, for all that has been made out of Vince's Rose Bowl performance, his relationship to Steve McNair, etc. etc. you would think that everyone on the Titans board would be all over his jock too, huh?

Not so. Vince certainly has contingent of support there, but you will see an awful lot of mention of Leinart, Cutler, or even Drew Brees as McNair's replacement to be. Interestingly I also saw a good bit on D'Brick and even Mario Williams as their first rounder this year ...

Things that make you go HMMMMM ... :stirpot:

EDIT: I know they're only Titans fans ... but you know ... I mean, come on. Just something to think about.

exclude
03-14-2006, 11:18 AM
I'm going to answer this like this. If Kubiak chooses Carr to be our QB, then it's a wasted pick in round 2. With that in mind, there is no way Young will fall out of the 1st round. The talent level between Young and Rodgers is quite large.

Yes this is so true.

I'm no VY hater, really I'm not, but at the moment, Aaron Rogers is so much better than VY, as far as looking like an NFL QB. I will get spammed for this I know.

Huge
03-14-2006, 11:34 AM
I dont think he's NFL ready at this time. But his new coach/GM/owner might think he is and puts him out there. I was tryin to state that different QB's have been handled different ways and either they work out or bust. We wont know with with the QBs until the end of his career. And we dont really know if Carr was NFL ready or not since in his first season he got sacked more than any one else in NFL history. We'll just have to see how VY ends up.
Point is, NO QB is "NFL ready" coming out of college. I don't care if Peyton Manning had spent 7 years at Tennessee...he wasn't going to be "NFL ready" coming out of college.

So for somebody to state that he's going to warm the bench for two years before he's ready and think it's coming across as an insult is pretty weak.

infantrycak
03-14-2006, 06:45 PM
Point is, NO QB is "NFL ready" coming out of college. I don't care if Peyton Manning had spent 7 years at Tennessee...he wasn't going to be "NFL ready" coming out of college.

So for somebody to state that he's going to warm the bench for two years before he's ready and think it's coming across as an insult is pretty weak.

None of them are NFL ready so they are all equally non-NFL ready, huh? Don't think so and there is no insult in trying to grade how much time it will take to develop any draft prospect.

Huge
03-14-2006, 08:05 PM
Ah yes, put words into another poster's mouth so that you come across as more intelligent (or did I miss the part where I said all QB's were equally unprepared for the NFL?).

disaacks3
03-14-2006, 08:27 PM
Ah yes, put words into another poster's mouth so that you come across as more intelligent (or did I miss the part where I said all QB's were equally unprepared for the NFL?).

I thought he was extrapolating from THIS comment...
So for somebody to state that he's going to warm the bench for two years before he's ready and think it's coming across as an insult is pretty weak.

Last time I checked, there were QBs that WERE ready before 2 years of 'ridin the pine'. It's hard to find QBs that were taken w/ the top pick staying on the bench that long.

It seems that 3 out of 5 posters on here think that the Texans would be stupid to pass on VY at pick #1. If he's not going to be NFL-ready for 2 years (as was implied), and the STANDARD for #1 picks is less than that, then it could easily be seen as an insult.

:twocents: For the record, I think Dan Marino WAS "NFL-Ready" coming out of college. It's a shame his receivers took awhile learning how to catch BULLETS. :)

infantrycak
03-14-2006, 09:17 PM
Ah yes, put words into another poster's mouth so that you come across as more intelligent (or did I miss the part where I said all QB's were equally unprepared for the NFL?).

Do you see the question mark in my post above? That solicited your clarification if my interpretation of what you were saying was incorrect. Guess my quest for an air of intellectual superiority distracted me from making that less ambiguous. In any event, the point was IMO the fact that no QB is NFL ready doesn't mean college QB's are not more or less NFL ready and that their readiness is not a legitimate factor in analyzing them as draft prospects.

Huge
03-14-2006, 10:23 PM
Last time I checked, there were QBs that WERE ready before 2 years of 'ridin the pine'. It's hard to find QBs that were taken w/ the top pick staying on the bench that long.
Would you say that more times than not, once they came off the bench they proved they were ready or did it take some struggling (even after sitting for a year...or longer) before they became effective QBs?

It seems that 3 out of 5 posters on here think that the Texans would be stupid to pass on VY at pick #1. If he's not going to be NFL-ready for 2 years (as was implied), and the STANDARD for #1 picks is less than that, then it could easily be seen as an insult.

For the record, I think Dan Marino WAS "NFL-Ready" coming out of college. It's a shame his receivers took awhile learning how to catch BULLETS.
Read the entire post (HomeBred_Texan's) from which I was replying to. This is where I was getting the "insult" tone from.

And yeah, Dan Marino was probably the best QB in the country his senior season in college...including NFL QB's. At least that's what Marino said in an interview before the '83 draft. :)

But seriously, Marino = exception...not the rule.

Do you see the question mark in my post above? That solicited your clarification if my interpretation of what you were saying was incorrect. Guess my quest for an air of intellectual superiority distracted me from making that less ambiguous. In any event, the point was IMO the fact that no QB is NFL ready doesn't mean college QB's are not more or less NFL ready and that their readiness is not a legitimate factor in analyzing them as draft prospects.
I did see the question mark. My interpretation of your question was you asking me why I would make such a statement when in fact I didn't. Since I have not stated that all QBs are equally/unequally prepared for the NFL coming out of college, then obviously we share the same viewpoint.

My statement that Vince having to prepare for a few years (the manner of which he prepares...sitting/playing...is irrelevent) puts him in the same company of some pretty successful QBs from the present/past. True/False?

Now if that wasn't meant as an insult, then that statement really doesn't jive with the previous statements from the same post (again, read the post I was replying to). Or at least it didn't by my comprehension.