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tulexan
03-09-2006, 01:53 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/060309


Whitlock makes some good points and some bad points. But he is right that Vince's decision making since the Rose Bowl haven't been very good.


Discuss...

Errant Hothy
03-09-2006, 02:00 PM
I've been saying that VY's management team has been teh biggest concern on him. He is making/being advised to some horrible decisions.

I think that if he had signed with a big name agent, which wouldn't have been that hard, he might truly be fighting for the first spot in the draft.

chuckm
03-09-2006, 02:13 PM
Wow ..... he does know that this is THE Vince Young he's talking about right?

The Dude Abides
03-09-2006, 02:49 PM
I'm surprised this hasn't started some type of backlash on the board yet.

tulexan
03-09-2006, 02:59 PM
I am too. I was a little hesitant in posting it because of the potential fire storm.

Vinny
03-09-2006, 03:00 PM
why? It's just the same tripe re-spewed. The piece says more about Whitlock than it does about Young.

chuckm
03-09-2006, 03:04 PM
why? It's just the same tripe re-spewed. The piece says more about Whitlock than it does about Young.


:rolleyes:

TexansFight
03-09-2006, 03:04 PM
Complete and utter bs article. Has Fatlock even talked to VY. This is what Tim Layden of SI had to say about VY after interviewing for 8 hours had this to say about VY:

He's a grownup. You interview enough college athletes, it gets pretty easy to discern which ones are really young men and which ones are 21 going on 15. I don't know whether Young liked me (don't care, either) or was flattered at being courted for Sports Illustrated's cover. I just know that he was a mature conversational partner, not a juvenile.

He's no fool. I talked with Young about football, college life, families, girlfriends and about more other subjects than I can remember without going back and listening to the tapes. He gave as good as he got. I don't care what he scored on a test or how he expresses himself; he's no fool.

Which opinion to you think is more valid, one by a fat *** with an axe to grind UT hater in Fatlock or a respected journalist who actually interviewed VY.

I am pissed off about this. ESPN has sunk to new lows with that. Can you believe they have this huge graphic castigating a guy who has been honorable and a champion:

http://espn.go.com/i/page2/topstory/060309_big.jpg

VY is going to be a star in this league. The Texans will use this bs spin to make the wrong move and pass on him. Casserly and the other asshats wil soon rue the day.

This was a stupid quote as well

Vince Young foolishly thinks that the Texas Longhorns and Mack Brown are more important than the Houston Texans and Gary Kubiak.

Though I am a Texans fan, I am much more a fan of the Horns. Years of history and love versus an expansion team is no contest. If it was between the Oilers and Horns now that would be close.

Vinny
03-09-2006, 03:05 PM
:rolleyes:It does. Whitlock is a race-baiter. That's why he sprinkles his commentary with passive-aggressive stereotype baiting...

Right now Young is proving that he doesn't have the necessary intangibles to thrive as a starting QB. He carries himself like a wide receiver.

Kaiser Toro
03-09-2006, 03:08 PM
It does. Whitlock is a race-baiter. That's why he sprinkles his commentary with passive-aggressive stereotype baiting...

Agreed. If you know JW then you know he is on island in KC. You can't get heard unless you stick your neck out.

Errant Hothy
03-09-2006, 03:08 PM
:rolleyes:

ditto.

VY's 6 on his first wunderlich proves it is an issue. Not with him as a player, but as him during the offseason, negotiation of the contract, how he allocates his time away from the practice feild (same is being said about Carr rigth now, also); and above all some of teh advice he is recieving.

I think Whitlock might have nailed VYs attitude, and I think draft day may be a wake up call for him.

I'm afraid the VY is starting down teh Ricky Williams path (man who had the worst rookie contract EVER!)

chuckm
03-09-2006, 03:11 PM
It does. Whitlock is a race-baiter. That's why he sprinkles his commentary with passive-aggressive stereotype baiting...


evidently he can't discuss Young either without being labelled a "hater" or "race-baiter" even though he's African-American ...

Vinny
03-09-2006, 03:12 PM
evidently he can't discuss Young either without being labelled a "hater" or "race-baiter" even though he's African-American ...If the shoe fits...

Texans_Chick
03-09-2006, 03:13 PM
John McClain's take on this, FWIW:

"Who wrote this? Most of it's a crock. I was with him on radio row. I've never heard of anyone called Black."

I am guessing if you want someone to read your stuff, you got to be a hater. I am not a big fan of VY's representation, but the conclusions that Whitlock draws from stuff are basically the worst way you could spin stuff.




What


ever.

:texflag:

travfrancis
03-09-2006, 03:21 PM
i love how he just assumes that vy has a poor work ethic and won't prepare for games, simply based off the fact that he didn't prepare for the wonderlic test.

Texans_Chick
03-09-2006, 03:34 PM
The Onion (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45976)


.....
The Wonderlic, a 12-minute, 50-question exam that evaluates a player's ability to learn on the job and solve complex problems, has become the centerpiece of the NFL scouting combine's player-evaluation process, especially at the quarterback position. Many teams, such as the New York Jets and San Francisco 49ers, all but ignore arm strength, field vision, attitude, and leadership ability, electing to use a player's Wonderlic score as the sole basis for choosing a quarterback on Draft Day.

"We originally thought quite highly of Young, who ran a seemingly complicated offense at Texas," said Houston Texans general manager Charley Casserly. "He had all the tools needed to score well on a standardized test in this league. Vince's completion percentage got higher every year, he was good at picking up the blitzes, and his ability to organize an audible at the line of scrimmage was unequaled in college ball. But his inability to answer story problems, diagram sentences, and solve simple geometric equations makes us wonder if he's really as smart on the field as he's been playing."
......
Houston, the team with the No. 1 pick in this year's draft, had been considering replacing quarterback David Carr with popular hometown hero Young. However, for all his problems on the field, Carr scored a 24 on his Wonderlic before being taken first overall in the 2002 draft.

"Let's face it—trading an untested 6 for a known 24 is a recipe for disaster," Casserly said. "If Vince Young can't tell us how many 29-cent loaves of bread can be purchased with the $3.49 in his pocket, how can we expect him to understand the two-minute drill—let alone his own quarterback rating?"

Texans owner Bob McNair was even more emphatic.

"Vince is definitely the sexy choice here," said McNair, who is reluctant to draft another "Wonderlic bust" such as 14-point-scoring washout Dan Marino. "He's a Houston native, he can make all the throws, has a great ability to see down the field, and there's no denying he brought the NCAA championship back to the great state of Texas. But at this club, we have high intellectual standards. We believe that the fans in Houston deserve someone who can at least match his jersey number on a problem-solving test."

Runner
03-09-2006, 03:40 PM
Oh-Oh.

You know, in about 4 months somebody's going to be bashing Casserly and referencing an article they saw once somewhere that said he relied heavily on the Wonderlic.

The Onion - The Onion - The Onion

Dr. Toro
03-09-2006, 04:00 PM
It's so funny how a guy can stick tight with his family and close friends and all of a sudden he's rolling with a posse. What Whitlock needs to understand is Vince is walking a very fine line, as all athletes are.

Not everybody can be Randy Moss and spend all his time alone, or spend all his time with the wife and kids. People like people, people want friends. It seems to me that Vince is simply being loyal to the people who have been there for him since he was in high school. He's surrounding himself with those who have earned his trust. Sure, they might want a buck too... whatever. What they are doing, which Whitlock neglects to mention, is keeping him away from people attracted to new, big money. So sure, it'd be great if he was just kicking it at IMG, ignoring his friends, and answering only his agent's calls... but that's not everybody's cup of tea, and obviously not Vince's. A more legitimate argument for Whitlock would be, why isn't VY changing, why isn't he succumbing to the every whim of a disingenuous media and scheming NFL "insiders"?

Whitlock makes it sound like he's rolling with a crew of gangsters... sure Adams seems a little over his head, but what happened to the mentoring of McNair and Jamail's oversight. Judging from Wonderlicgate, Mack Brown still has his back. And after being nationally humiliated by dubious reports about his intelligence, I imagine Vince is being more vigilant. But to make this predictable pre-draft breakdown into a deep character flaw is just ridiculous. Why is this a story now?

If this is worthy of a feature article, where are the blockbusters detailing Jay Cutler's freshman indiscretions, or the fact that Leinart dated that girl from Laguna Beach and rolls with Jessica Simpson's crew (surely he's not focused). I love how the friendly confines of Austin merit a wakeup call for VY, but the star-studded USC lovefest of the past three years means Leinart is ready for NFL pressure. VY handled a bit of adversity, Texas fans and coaches weren't always fawning over his play at QB, Saban thought he'd be an all time great... at receiver. From everything you read, you'd think VY was this fragile, coddled, helpless mass of fear... dude never looked like that when the game was on the line... never.

ToroFan
03-09-2006, 04:09 PM
Yeah Whitlock just rehashes whatever he feels like and tries to say whatever is sensational at the time. He seems like a two bit hack to me...Notice the inconsistencies below

Some quotes from an article he wrote prior that are inconsitent with what he just wrote...


"The inclination is to call Young the Muhammad Ali of Wednesday’s BCS title tilt. Young floated like a butterfly and stung like a bee, passing for 267 yards and running for 200 yards and three scores.

But the truth is he was Frazier, the underappreciated, talented superstar with something to prove. And just like Frazier, Young battered the team considered the “greatest of all time,” brought out the best in USC (and rival quarterback Matt Leinart), and the Texas QB shook up the world."

So his accomplishments in college football don't mean much...except he compares it to one of the greatest events in sports history in Ali-Frazier...huh?


"On a night filled with pressure, hype and anticipation, Young was about the only person involved in the game who didn’t crack in the first half."

So wait, this isn't a pressure packed situation or not?


The only complaint with college football and the BCS system Wednesday night was that Young and Leinart won’t be around to stage a trilogy. If there’s ever a rematch, it will be contested in some future NFL Super Bowl, and it’s highly unlikely Bush will play any role.

So let me get this straight... The guy goes from playing in a future Super Bowl to acting like a wide receiver based on a rumored Wonderlic test score, and a friend who owns a nightclub ?

And perhaps his best quote, and ultimate what makes Whitlock look like a complete moron...

"Yeah, Young was Joe Frazier in “The Fight of the Century,” the first Ali-Frazier clash. Frazier whipped the “people’s champion” after months of being disrespected by Ali and sports writers overly impressed with Ali’s flair and speed."

Hmmm sounds familiar...I wonder what sports writer would disrespect him based on appearances or perhaps "flair". I really wonder who...:ok:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/columnists/jason_whitlock/13551969.htm

travfrancis
03-09-2006, 04:27 PM
"Yeah, Young was Joe Frazier in “The Fight of the Century,” the first Ali-Frazier clash. Frazier whipped the “people’s champion” after months of being disrespected by Ali and sports writers overly impressed with Ali’s flair and speed."

wow, i actually like that quote

Rewsky
03-09-2006, 04:29 PM
Wow, I've read some pretty bad rants on this messageboard that were more insightful than that article.


Vince Young foolishly thinks that the Texas Longhorns and Mack Brown are more important than the Houston Texans and Gary Kubiak.

I don't recall Vince ever saying anything close to that. I think that Fatty is just pulling this info out of his a** (his head is probably up there too.:) )

:twocents:

Dr. Toro
03-09-2006, 04:33 PM
Does anyone have a good reason for ESPN.com having "Shut up, Vince" as the link? The article isn't related to anything like that at all. We aren't talking about T.O. here. That just seems like some really ridiculous hate. Why not "You're a jerk, Vince".

stevo3883
03-09-2006, 04:35 PM
ive never seen a prospect get ridiculed and torn apart like vince.

its gone way too far, there is something weird going on.

tulexan
03-09-2006, 04:51 PM
Are you insinuating that there is some sort of conspiracy against Vince going on?

Vince is being ridiculed because he is consistently making bad decisions. I believe that after the Rose Bowl, the only way he could go is down. He was as high as you can get, and the series of mistakes made his fall even faster. Are they completely justified? No, but that is the nature of the beast. When there is so much hype behind one player, people start looking for ways to bring them down. Other people can be convinced easily and start to agree with them.

stevo3883
03-09-2006, 05:01 PM
Are you insinuating that there is some sort of conspiracy against Vince going on?

Vince is being ridiculed because he is consistently making bad decisions. I believe that after the Rose Bowl, the only way he could go is down. He was as high as you can get, and the series of mistakes made his fall even faster. Are they completely justified? No, but that is the nature of the beast. When there is so much hype behind one player, people start looking for ways to bring them down. Other people can be convinced easily and start to agree with them.


no one knows what decisions he is making. no one knows if he studied for the test or not. no one knows why he picked the people for his team.

people just decide whatever reasons they want and just go from there. its so ridiculous.

dannyboy
03-09-2006, 05:03 PM
Does anyone have a good reason for ESPN.com having "Shut up, Vince" as the link?

Maybe they haven't gotten over having their "Are The 2005 USC Trojans The Greatest Team Ever" series and all the talk of the inevitable USC 3-peat rendered meaningless? Seems petty, but nobody likes being wrong.

CowboysTexansFan
03-09-2006, 06:17 PM
This was a stupid quote as well


Quote:
Vince Young foolishly thinks that the Texas Longhorns and Mack Brown are more important than the Houston Texans and Gary Kubiak.


Though I am a Texans fan, I am much more a fan of the Horns. Years of history and love versus an expansion team is no contest. If it was between the Oilers and Horns now that would be close.
_____

Heh. The Longhorns may very well be more important to UT grads than the Texans, but there is a large universe of Texans fans who did not go to UT and do not give a rat's @ss about UT. I am happily renewing my PSL seats at Reliant Stadium, whether or not VY is drafted by the Texans.

Huge
03-09-2006, 07:09 PM
Whitlock lost an assload of money betting on USC.

HoustonFrog
03-09-2006, 08:35 PM
Another bad sports reporter trying to make a name for himself by being crass. The bad part is he decided to do it at the expense of a good kid. Hope he felt like a man afterward. Some people are just sad.

thunderkyss
03-09-2006, 10:11 PM
SI:......about more other subjects than I can remember......


did he write ".....more other subjects...." or was that you??


Anyway, I didn't read the Whitlock article....... don't need to. If he is saying Vince screwed up, he's right....... the whole management thing right now seems to be hurting more than helping.


man if Jonny Cochran was a live...... that's who I'd want. (see the signature)

thunderkyss
03-09-2006, 10:28 PM
It's so funny how a guy can stick tight with his family and close friends and all of a sudden he's rolling with a posse.

You know there was another young up & coming athlete that rolled deep with His posse, after he started making big money, and got into the pros... Everywhere you'd go, you'd see them. & they weren't families....... thug gangsta... bad look'n sort. I had been a fan of his, since the first time I saw him play. I ain't never seen a guy his size move like that, handle the ball like that. I thought those thugs were going to be the end of him.

There were reports like everyother week, how he spent this much on his thug friend for this, that much for his thug friends that. He even started handing out jobs.... paying a fella thousands to open doors for him, or shop for his shoes, or something like that. It was bad enough dude didn't go to highschool. He was betting everything on his career, and he had all these beggars and hangers ons...

Dude was KG...... I've got nothing but mad respect for him. I followed those stories, & I let my opinion of the man be formed before I heard him speak. He did speak out on the subject... 20/20 or 60 minutes, or something like that. And he put it down. He spoke intelligently, he had a plan, and I felt like an **** for prejudging him. The way he spoke about his friends, and what they meant to him, you knew he wasn't being taken advantage of. He was remembering where he came from, and paying back the people that helped him get out.

BREAZE
03-10-2006, 12:12 AM
This article is funny, but nowhere near as funny as it will be 3-5 years from now.

Thow all the awards away Vince because everything you have done up until now according to this article proves one thing and one thing only, you are not anywhere near Chris Simms in ability.

This draft has become a political race and its going to get worse before it gets any better...

non natural texan
03-10-2006, 12:26 AM
This article does a great job putting into words what I've been thinking since the Rose Bowl.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/060309

travfrancis
03-10-2006, 12:26 AM
hahaha

non natural texan
03-10-2006, 12:30 AM
Pretty accurate if you ask me, though it does come from a writer that I personally don't like a whole lot.

He's been acting a little cocky and I can never remember a potential top draft pick behaving the same way he has.

phan1
03-10-2006, 03:24 AM
I think this article is way too harsh. I'm not really a Young supporter, but this article is way off base. The bad wonderlic score is so overblown and will not not affect his draft status at all. Ragging on him for his wonderlic score is just stupid. But I believe VY has not made the best decisions in promoting himself. Getting an agent would have been better for him obviously. As for VY and his "posse", I haven't seen any of that make any healines.

I just really hate how this writer presumes to know VY's character and work ethic (or lack thereof). He doesn't know squat about VY personnally and he should not presume that he does. This guy is another opinionated jackass writer that thinks he is the best sports analyst in the world.

That being said, it is glaringly obvious that he is very raw, especially compared to the other QBs in the draft (not even including Cutler and Lienhart). Yeah, he left school early, but teams aren't going to let that be an excuse. Right now, he has shown that he is absolutely not NFL ready in any way shape or form. And not getting an agent who understands this business has only set him back even more so. I think it was a bad move, especially given that he's surrounding himself with people that might not be condusive to his career.

I also don't think he interviewed well so far, something that really would have kept his stock from falling. I haven't really felt that NFL teams are falling in love with this guy, and I don't think he'll be a top 3 pick like most people are repoting. I'd put him at around 7-10. Despite the off-base remarks, this guy does have the point that VY is not NFL ready, even by rookie QB standards. His stock is slipping, even though it arguably shouldn't have been this high in the first place.

jerek
03-10-2006, 09:17 AM
no one knows what decisions he is making. no one knows if he studied for the test or not. no one knows why he picked the people for his team.

people just decide whatever reasons they want and just go from there. its so ridiculous.

Steve-O, this is pretty much the truth of the matter.

Whitlock's article contains some truth and a lot of speculation regarding Vince, though I believe he overemphasizes the impact it is going to have on his bottom line. Nothing about Vince's game has changed since the Rose Bowl - he is still the same exciting athlete with a lot of potential and a few serious question marks hanging over his head.

The MB discussion that was prompted by this somewhat factual, somewhat whimsical article has revealed far more "truth" about the status of fans on this board than it has anything about Vince or his game.

For months now, people have leveled criticism after criticism (many of them borderline or outright insults) at David Carr, the majority of this rhetoric being of equally baseless or speculative value as those Whitlock provides against Young. For instance, most recently: many of the pro-Vince crowd were resolute that Carr's teammates hated him, disrespected him, etc., that it was so "obvious" ... well, Steve McKinney gets on his radio show and says Carr is an alright kind of guy, and now, of course, he's just pumping up his teammate and hiding what he feels. Meanwhile, Huff comes out in support of Vince Young, and dear God, stop the presses, we need to add a new chapter to the Bible. People can speculate for days on end regarding Carr's practice habits and passion for winning and tout these mystical revelations as fact, but nooo ... who is Jason Whitlock to dare question Vince? Seriously, he is a "fat-***" and a "racist" (deep, by the way: that demonstrates a lot of class or intelligent thought on your part, and I am absolutely sick of the race card being played every time anyone says something negatively against a black guy) who should just keep his mouth shut, because if there is one thing you can say with certainty about Vince Young fans everywhere, is that they are all absolutely right.

For that matter (ignore this paragraph if you are already heatedly preparing your "homer" rant), many of the David Carr fan set have behaved similarly toward Vince, ignoring any of Carr's football deficiencies while attributing 100% of the blame for our 2-14 season to anybody but the man himself, while making much ado over almost nothing regarding such non-factors as Vince's Wonderlic score (even if he really did get a 6, does that mean he can't throw a football? I doubt it.) While Vince has made a handful of suspect decisions lately, his off-field "troubles" are hardly of the caliber of a Marcus Vick or Maurice Clarett. In the end, no matter how rocky his NFL start is shaping up to be, his game remains the same, and to the observer clinging to even a shred of objectivity, there is little reason to doubt he will have success -and quite possibly a high degree of it - at the pro level.

The bottom line is that most people will do or say just about anything to believe what they want to believe. That, unfortunately, has characterized too much of this Vince/Carr debate.

Read Whitlock for what he is worth, take what truth there is to be had, and ignore the fluffy stuff, "player-hating" if that's what you want to call it. Or better yet, meaningfully dissect his errors and talk about that. But as I read through the list of names that have so eagerly jumped to VY's defense, I can only shake my head in memory of some of what some of them have written against Carr and others, using precisely the same ambiguous and highly speculative, inflammatory style of rhetoric. To those posters, I say: it's cool to like Vince, it's great to support your guy, but stop talking as if their is some grand conspiracy against him, as if he is the only player on the face of this earth (or this board) to receive much undue criticism.

Then again, fire away, if that's what helps you to sleep at night. Just know your opinions for the foolishness they are.

jerek
03-10-2006, 09:31 AM
Does anyone have a good reason for ESPN.com having "Shut up, Vince" as the link? The article isn't related to anything like that at all. We aren't talking about T.O. here. That just seems like some really ridiculous hate. Why not "You're a jerk, Vince".

It's not as if this is new, the press being sensationalistic, and especially the writer of an ESPN Page 2 column.

Is it stupid? Yes.

But just understand that Vince is the flavor of the month right now and it is easy to criticize him based on some of these decisions (notice I said easy, not justified), and we are weeks from the Draft. Writers need stories and as much as a lot of people on this board would love to read about David Carr sucking, that just isn't going to generate as many hits on the ESPN page counters right now.

Fair? Probably not.

Maybe Vince is every bit the fool he is being made out to be, but I doubt it. He just makes for easy game right now.

Maddict5
03-10-2006, 09:34 AM
no one knows what decisions he is making. no one knows if he studied for the test or not. no one knows why he picked the people for his team.

people just decide whatever reasons they want and just go from there. its so ridiculous.

i think its fairly safe to assume he didnt study for it( not that you should have to)

yeah the article is overly critical imo, but he hasn't done many smart things the last few months.

and whoever said it was a racial thing is wrong- has any1 said anything about reggie, d'brick, or mario

pittbull
03-10-2006, 10:37 AM
Sometimes you really have to question the motive of writers. I can understand the valid points that Jason made regarding the legal representation of Vince Young, as I made mention of it since the beginning, that this would be his biggest issue. But, regarding the kid's character (AND I MAKE STRONG MENTION OF THE WORD "KID"), is a completely different ballgame. Here is a young man that has acted in nothing short of class, on and off the field. Can he appear a little immature at times, yes. Did any of us at age 21 or 22? I'm sure Jason made some stupid decisions at age 22. He wasn't always the lawbidding, never drink, never smoke, never make a wrong choice in life writer. Then again, I don't think Jason ever looked down the barrel of an opportunity to make millions and take care of his family for life and possibly close friends. In my opinion, maybe Jason doesn't understand the black community and how close it really is. That in the African-American community, when I rise, I have to take someone with me, even if it may not seem as conventional to the rest of the world. That if I can bless someone, maybe others will be blessed. Vince made his legal decision based solely on helping others. Will he learn a lesson, about a million dollar lesson, but if all are able to learn from the experience, how much more did Vince do for himself, his community, friends, and someone elses career, than just his own. Didn't he do the same at UT. His agent will become better. The "posse" will drop off. They always do fall off the great athletes. He talks of Vince as if he reps the thug life and that is completely false. It appears to me that Jason is looking to jump on the bandwagon of "mainstream white writers" to jump ahead himself in life and the corporate ladder........Why didn't he just genuinely ask Vince for help to become his private publicist..........Youngs boys did!:twocents:

uteric3232
03-10-2006, 10:43 AM
This guy has been bashing anything and everything UT since the formation of the Big 12......no big surprise.....he is an *****

tulexan
03-10-2006, 10:45 AM
I really don't think that Jason Whitlock (a black sportswriter) had any intention of making this a racial issue.

Like I said in the original post, there are some valid points and some bad points in this article. I believe that his decision making since the Rose Bowl has been terrible, starting with hiring an inexperienced agent and ending with the Wonderlic debacle. Whitlock is just trying to be a sensationalist like all writers, but he does make some good arguments.

jerek
03-10-2006, 10:54 AM
Sometimes you really have to question the motive of writers. I can understand the valid points that Jason made regarding the legal representation of Vince Young, as I made mention of it since the beginning, that this would be his biggest issue. But, regarding the kid's character (AND I MAKE STRONG MENTION OF THE WORD "KID"), is a completely different ballgame. Here is a young man that has acted in nothing short of class, on and off the field. Can he appear a little immature at times, yes. Did any of us at age 21 or 22? I'm sure Jason made some stupid decisions at age 22. He wasn't always the lawbidding, never drink, never smoke, never make a wrong choice in life writer. Then again, I don't think Jason ever looked down the barrel of an opportunity to make millions and take care of his family for life and possibly close friends. In my opinion, maybe Jason doesn't understand the black community and how close it really is. That in the African-American community, when I rise, I have to take someone with me, even if it may not seem as conventional to the rest of the world. That if I can bless someone, maybe others will be blessed. Vince made his legal decision based solely on helping others. Will he learn a lesson, about a million dollar lesson, but if all are able to learn from the experience, how much more did Vince do for himself, his community, friends, and someone elses career, than just his own. Didn't he do the same at UT. His agent will become better. The "posse" will drop off. They always do fall off the great athletes. He talks of Vince as if he reps the thug life and that is completely false. It appears to me that Jason is looking to jump on the bandwagon of "mainstream white writers" to jump ahead himself in life and the corporate ladder........Why didn't he just genuinely ask Vince for help to become his private publicist..........Youngs boys did!:twocents:

Eventually we will just go ahead and pull the race card from this deck. It is ironic especially in light of the fact that Whitlock is black ... well, if he doesn't understand "his own" community, then I guess that just makes him a "hater" or a "crab" or whatever other ***** label you want to give it, in an attempt to simply discredit the guy and make yourself feel good about your own position where apparently, you can't find a real counter argument for him. Or at least, haven't given one.

I'm not saying Whitlock is right about much of anything he said. To me, he engages exactly the same sort of brand of half-truth speculation that most of the posters on this board routinely build their own arguments on.

I very much doubt that Vince Young scoring a 6 on the Wunderlic or forgetting to wear a suit to the White House or hanging with a posse of his old friends or enrolling a lawyer with a dubious sports background will too much affect Young's success in this league. But you have to recognize that at least some of the above displays can reasonably cause reasonable people to ask questions about whether or not Vince Young's off-field life (even Vince leaves the stadium) is going to be a problem. Even when those questions are asked, I believe the answer stays the same: Vince can and should do well, perhaps spectacularly, at the pro level. But don't pretend as if questions don't exist or should not exist, as if no one in the history of sport has a right to question the guy. That is flat out crap, and for all we know about Vince Young, we know nothing about the agent that will be advising him and will truly be one of his closest confidants in the years to come. Should that scare us? Probably not, but I guarantee you it is an angle that every GM is going to consider and be aware of.

Give the "race" thing a rest. There is no disputing that racism is unfortunately alive and well in these United States today, but claiming it as a defense against any negative comment is too often a copout that is being increasingly - and unnecessarily - waved about this board. There are plenty of real holes in Whitlock's argument that could be attacked, so attack them already, without inventing your own highly-charged, untouchable side plot to the thing.

Kaiser Toro
03-10-2006, 10:59 AM
I have to break in to provide a community service announcement - Race and Sex sell in the US. We can't get enough of it.

Thank you.

jerek
03-10-2006, 11:11 AM
I have to break in to provide a community service announcement - Race and Sex sell in the US. We can't get enough of it.

Thank you.

For sure, I guess I was just hoping that the posters on this board could get past it. Then again, we clearly have our own steady band of sensationalist writers.

Huge
03-10-2006, 11:44 AM
Bad argument #1 - "Humility is the No. 1 ingredient (of what it takes to be an NFL QB)."

Horsepucky...right off the bat Whitlock trashes his credibility.

Bad argument #2 - "This isn't the NBA, and Young isn't Shaquille O'Neal. You don't get the first half of the season to play your way into shape. It's not Major League Baseball, and Young isn't Roger Clemens. You don't get to stay at home with your family on certain road trips."

That's nothing more than taking a shot at Vince...which further damages your credibilty by exposing the intent of your article. Otherwise, what is this based on? Vince's past history of not being in shape before the season started? Vince's request to not travel to road games?

Bad argument #3 - "This isn't the University of Texas, and Young is no longer able to rely on his superior athleticism and instincts to outduel his competitors."

But players like Reggie Bush won't find that there's an adjustment that will need to be made?

Bad argument #4 - "Young's success in the NFL will hinge almost exclusively on his willingness to prepare. And that's exactly what Young's Wonderlic score and other curious decisions call into question -- his will to prepare and his level of humility."

Yeah, because Vince's progression in the passing game over the past few years displays nothing of his willingness to prepare.

Bad argument #5 - "The fact that Young had to take the Wonderlic twice in order to score a 16 is an indication to me that Young did not prepare for the test, particularly the first time. That speaks to Young's arrogance."

Arrogance or ignorance? If he's working with inexperienced managment (obviously a bad call on Vince's part to hire him) and they didn't inform/prepare him for the Wonderlic, how is that arrogance? It's easy to write it up as arrogance as if Vince blew the test off because he figured he'd either ace it or didn't need to do well on it if you have a particular agenda you're writing for (as Whitlock as been exposed to doing so).

Bad argument #6 - "So does his choice in representation and his decision to visit the president and the White House sans sports coat and tie."

And Whitlock dares call Vince clueless?

Bad argument #7 - "A starting NFL quarterback is the face of a billion-dollar corporation. He is one of the three or four highest-profile individuals in his city and perhaps in his state. His every move is cussed, discussed and analyzed by millions of people who don't have a clue about playing the position."

Another face of a billion-dollar corporation that had the look, said all the right things, hired all the right people, wore all the right clothes, did all the right things, scored well on the Wonderlic...

http://espn.starwave.com/i/nfl/profiles/players/statsid/s5889.jpg

What's it gotten Detroit? Nothing.

Bad argument #8 - "Vince Young foolishly thinks that the Texas Longhorns and Mack Brown are more important than the Houston Texans and Gary Kubiak."

Moronic statement. On the same level of Matt Hayes declaring Vince should've been better than Reggie McNeal coming out of high school because Vince came from the Madison powerhouse while Reggie played at lowly Lufkin. These guys obviously are clueless about the pecking order of football in the state of Texas.

Bad argument #9 - "Just ask Ryan Leaf or countless other can't-miss prospects. Michael Vick is in the process of getting humbled. He was supposed to reinvent the position. I don't believe the position will ever be reinvented. The guys who have consistent success will always be the guys who prepare the hardest.

Before any NFL owner gives Young a bunch of guaranteed dollars, the general manager better make sure Young is going to hit the film room and practice field just as hard as Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb and Tom Brady. The GM also should make sure that the head coach and offensive coordinator -- not some let's-hit-the-strip-clubs posse member -- have the ear of the quarterback."

See previously stated point about Vince's progression in the passing game as a better example of his work ethic and preparing himself.

Bad argument #10 - "It's an honor. So far, Vince Young isn't treating it like an honor. He's treating it like it's his right, granted to him by an MVP performance in the Rose Bowl. You can be a fool and argue that Young proved all he needed to prove in Texas' upset of USC. Hmm. Didn't Redskins running back Tim Smith and Cowboys cornerback Larry Brown have big games on football's biggest stage and later prove to be frauds? And what don't people understand about the concept that NFL quarterbacks have to prove themselves week to week?"

Whitlock has gotten so desperate he's jumped in with the "one great game" crowd. Larry Brown had a solid career before winning MVP in Super Bowl XXX. Is he under the impression that the current crop of starting NFL QB's are proving themselves week to week? I can point out several examples of QB's proving the exact opposite if need be.

If he wants to point out Vince's bad decision of the hiring of his management, fine...I totally agree with him. But don't be an moron and say it's out of arrogance.

jerek
03-10-2006, 11:52 AM
Bad argument #1 - "Humility is the No. 1 ingredient (of what it takes to be an NFL QB)."

Horsepucky...right off the bat Whitlock trashes his credibility.

Bad argument #2 - "This isn't the NBA, and Young isn't Shaquille O'Neal. You don't get the first half of the season to play your way into shape. It's not Major League Baseball, and Young isn't Roger Clemens. You don't get to stay at home with your family on certain road trips."

That's nothing more than taking a shot at Vince...which further damages your credibilty by exposing the intent of your article. Otherwise, what is this based on? Vince's past history of not being in shape before the season started? Vince's request to not travel to road games?

Bad argument #3 - "This isn't the University of Texas, and Young is no longer able to rely on his superior athleticism and instincts to outduel his competitors."

But players like Reggie Bush won't find that there's an adjustment that will need to be made?

Bad argument #4 - "Young's success in the NFL will hinge almost exclusively on his willingness to prepare. And that's exactly what Young's Wonderlic score and other curious decisions call into question -- his will to prepare and his level of humility."

Yeah, because Vince's progression in the passing game over the past few years displays nothing of his willingness to prepare.

Bad argument #5 - "The fact that Young had to take the Wonderlic twice in order to score a 16 is an indication to me that Young did not prepare for the test, particularly the first time. That speaks to Young's arrogance."

Arrogance or ignorance? If he's working with inexperienced managment (obviously a bad call on Vince's part to hire him) and they didn't inform/prepare him for the Wonderlic, how is that arrogance? It's easy to write it up as arrogance as if Vince blew the test off because he figured he'd either ace it or didn't need to do well on it if you have a particular agenda you're writing for (as Whitlock as been exposed to doing so).

Bad argument #6 - "So does his choice in representation and his decision to visit the president and the White House sans sports coat and tie."

And Whitlock dares call Vince clueless?

Bad argument #7 - "A starting NFL quarterback is the face of a billion-dollar corporation. He is one of the three or four highest-profile individuals in his city and perhaps in his state. His every move is cussed, discussed and analyzed by millions of people who don't have a clue about playing the position."

Another face of a billion-dollar corporation that had the look, said all the right things, hired all the right people, wore all the right clothes, did all the right things, scored well on the Wonderlic...

http://espn.starwave.com/i/nfl/profiles/players/statsid/s5889.jpg

What's it gotten Detroit? Nothing.

Bad argument #8 - "Vince Young foolishly thinks that the Texas Longhorns and Mack Brown are more important than the Houston Texans and Gary Kubiak."

Moronic statement. On the same level of Matt Hayes declaring Vince should've been better than Reggie McNeal coming out of high school because Vince came from the Madison powerhouse while Reggie played at lowly Lufkin. These guys obviously are clueless about the pecking order of football in the state of Texas.

Bad argument #9 - "Just ask Ryan Leaf or countless other can't-miss prospects. Michael Vick is in the process of getting humbled. He was supposed to reinvent the position. I don't believe the position will ever be reinvented. The guys who have consistent success will always be the guys who prepare the hardest.

Before any NFL owner gives Young a bunch of guaranteed dollars, the general manager better make sure Young is going to hit the film room and practice field just as hard as Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb and Tom Brady. The GM also should make sure that the head coach and offensive coordinator -- not some let's-hit-the-strip-clubs posse member -- have the ear of the quarterback."

See previously stated point about Vince's progression in the passing game as a better example of his work ethic and preparing himself.

Bad argument #10 - "It's an honor. So far, Vince Young isn't treating it like an honor. He's treating it like it's his right, granted to him by an MVP performance in the Rose Bowl. You can be a fool and argue that Young proved all he needed to prove in Texas' upset of USC. Hmm. Didn't Redskins running back Tim Smith and Cowboys cornerback Larry Brown have big games on football's biggest stage and later prove to be frauds? And what don't people understand about the concept that NFL quarterbacks have to prove themselves week to week?"

Whitlock has gotten so desperate he's jumped in with the "one great game" crowd. Larry Brown had a solid career before winning MVP in Super Bowl XXX. Is he under the impression that the current crop of starting NFL QB's are proving themselves week to week? I can point out several examples of QB's proving the exact opposite if need be.

If he wants to point out Vince's bad decision of the hiring of his management, fine...I totally agree with him. But don't be an moron and say it's out of arrogance.

This is how it's done. I don't agree with every point, but I agree with most. Analyze a sensationalistic article and attack its many glaring holes. Don't cry and take your ball and go home and yell "racist" as you run away.

Props, Huge. I like this work.

Big B Texan Fan
03-10-2006, 12:43 PM
Bad argument #1 - "Humility is the No. 1 ingredient (of what it takes to be an NFL QB)."

Horsepucky...right off the bat Whitlock trashes his credibility.

Bad argument #2 - "This isn't the NBA, and Young isn't Shaquille O'Neal. You don't get the first half of the season to play your way into shape. It's not Major League Baseball, and Young isn't Roger Clemens. You don't get to stay at home with your family on certain road trips."

That's nothing more than taking a shot at Vince...which further damages your credibilty by exposing the intent of your article. Otherwise, what is this based on? Vince's past history of not being in shape before the season started? Vince's request to not travel to road games?

Bad argument #3 - "This isn't the University of Texas, and Young is no longer able to rely on his superior athleticism and instincts to outduel his competitors."

But players like Reggie Bush won't find that there's an adjustment that will need to be made?

Bad argument #4 - "Young's success in the NFL will hinge almost exclusively on his willingness to prepare. And that's exactly what Young's Wonderlic score and other curious decisions call into question -- his will to prepare and his level of humility."

Yeah, because Vince's progression in the passing game over the past few years displays nothing of his willingness to prepare.

Bad argument #5 - "The fact that Young had to take the Wonderlic twice in order to score a 16 is an indication to me that Young did not prepare for the test, particularly the first time. That speaks to Young's arrogance."

Arrogance or ignorance? If he's working with inexperienced managment (obviously a bad call on Vince's part to hire him) and they didn't inform/prepare him for the Wonderlic, how is that arrogance? It's easy to write it up as arrogance as if Vince blew the test off because he figured he'd either ace it or didn't need to do well on it if you have a particular agenda you're writing for (as Whitlock as been exposed to doing so).

Bad argument #6 - "So does his choice in representation and his decision to visit the president and the White House sans sports coat and tie."

And Whitlock dares call Vince clueless?

Bad argument #7 - "A starting NFL quarterback is the face of a billion-dollar corporation. He is one of the three or four highest-profile individuals in his city and perhaps in his state. His every move is cussed, discussed and analyzed by millions of people who don't have a clue about playing the position."

Another face of a billion-dollar corporation that had the look, said all the right things, hired all the right people, wore all the right clothes, did all the right things, scored well on the Wonderlic...

http://espn.starwave.com/i/nfl/profiles/players/statsid/s5889.jpg

What's it gotten Detroit? Nothing.

Bad argument #8 - "Vince Young foolishly thinks that the Texas Longhorns and Mack Brown are more important than the Houston Texans and Gary Kubiak."

Moronic statement. On the same level of Matt Hayes declaring Vince should've been better than Reggie McNeal coming out of high school because Vince came from the Madison powerhouse while Reggie played at lowly Lufkin. These guys obviously are clueless about the pecking order of football in the state of Texas.

Bad argument #9 - "Just ask Ryan Leaf or countless other can't-miss prospects. Michael Vick is in the process of getting humbled. He was supposed to reinvent the position. I don't believe the position will ever be reinvented. The guys who have consistent success will always be the guys who prepare the hardest.

Before any NFL owner gives Young a bunch of guaranteed dollars, the general manager better make sure Young is going to hit the film room and practice field just as hard as Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb and Tom Brady. The GM also should make sure that the head coach and offensive coordinator -- not some let's-hit-the-strip-clubs posse member -- have the ear of the quarterback."

See previously stated point about Vince's progression in the passing game as a better example of his work ethic and preparing himself.

Bad argument #10 - "It's an honor. So far, Vince Young isn't treating it like an honor. He's treating it like it's his right, granted to him by an MVP performance in the Rose Bowl. You can be a fool and argue that Young proved all he needed to prove in Texas' upset of USC. Hmm. Didn't Redskins running back Tim Smith and Cowboys cornerback Larry Brown have big games on football's biggest stage and later prove to be frauds? And what don't people understand about the concept that NFL quarterbacks have to prove themselves week to week?"

Whitlock has gotten so desperate he's jumped in with the "one great game" crowd. Larry Brown had a solid career before winning MVP in Super Bowl XXX. Is he under the impression that the current crop of starting NFL QB's are proving themselves week to week? I can point out several examples of QB's proving the exact opposite if need be.

If he wants to point out Vince's bad decision of the hiring of his management, fine...I totally agree with him. But don't be an moron and say it's out of arrogance.
Word.:ok:

pittbull
03-10-2006, 12:55 PM
The only race card being pulled is towards Jason Whitlock. Maybe I didn't present it well the first time I posted. I too, like Whitlock and many others have questioned Vince Young decisions, and agree with his lack of good judgment in the beginning of what will be a GREAT career. I also can see how many others on the outside can look at this and start questioning Vince. But did the same questions exist before the wonderlic? No. Before the Rose Bowl, no......At least not character and responsibility questions. Vince was being praise for his uncanny leadership ability, placing him in the ranks of the Brett Favre's and Mannings of the world, as soon as he is drafted. BUT, Whitlock makes no mention to the other side of the fence. He, as well as other African-American minorites understand the thought process of trust ouside of the community. Myself, far from racist (Multi-racial family) and if Vince would have gone with a white, mexican asian, etc... agent and had a multi-racial posse, the thought process is still engrained in blacks since birth, take someone with you. That is the whole idea of the posse. Not just to pay your friends to have a good time, but give them the same opportunities of a good life, like yourself. Basically, if anything, it is a lack of preparation by the entire Young camp, but to discredit a 22 year old Kid, is another issue. If Vince had been a 30yr old marketing exec, being hired by Nike, and pulled the antic, then judge him. But here is an individual who will learn the business on the fly, like ALL being drafted, including pick #1-"Mr. Irrelevant". Does anyone remember Ricky Williams? Everyone questioned his decision making with Master P. Came back to bite him in the butt. Did he learn a lesson? Obviously not. But let's give Vince a chance, his representation, and his past merit to show what team Young can do! Wait.....Doesn't Whitlock write a ton of article about African-American athletes, with such a negative spin.....Nah, couldn't be the same guy!:superman:

Hardcore Texan
03-10-2006, 01:36 PM
It seems like a pretty one-sided attack. I can see quesitoning some of his and his management team's decisions lately, but only time will tell.

I get sick of all the pre-judging that goes on, not just with Vince, but everywhere. OFF TOPIC, There are so many critics/posters ranting about what the Texans should and shouldn't do. It is unfair to continuley judge and negatively criticize a body of work that is yet to be complete, or even has quantifiable results. Let see the results and then make an honest assesment. The ending might suprise you.

Anyway, what is with insulting VY's work ethic, I think he has proven he is a hard worker, and his willingness to prepare...just a very cheap shot.

note: I like VY, I think he will be great in the NFL, but I am not for drafting him, we have more pressing needs IMO.

Texans86
03-10-2006, 04:15 PM
I read the article, and I'm pretty sure this has to be my favorite part of it:

"His every move is cussed, discussed and analyzed by millions of people who don't have a clue about playing the position."

Obiously this is a message board, but sometimes people take it a little too seriously.

Edit: spelling

Huge
03-10-2006, 04:52 PM
I read the article, and I'm pretty sure this has to be my favorite part of it:

"His every move is cussed, discussed and analyzed by millions of people who don't have a clue about playing the position."

Obiously this is a message board, but sometimes people take it a little too seriously.

Edit: spelling
Including the author of the article.

HoustonFrog
03-10-2006, 10:46 PM
I wrote Whitlock this. Sorry if you agree or not but I can't stand people of his kind. I've always read his stuff. I have never liked it. I'm white and am not going to pretend to understand alot of it but I think he throws out the same things that he abhors when it comes to race. Here was my e-mail to him. Some of this has been written here many times:

Jason Whitlock,

Why is it that sports writers these days feel the need to take cheap shots in order to try and make a name for themself?I'll start by making these statements: I didn't go to UT; I don't want the Texans to draft him and I have read every article concerning the guy..good and bad, here in Houston. Your column was irresponsible and was full of untruths in my opinion. I've already seen local hosts who have completely torn it to shreds, especially the talk of a man named "Black" and him being part of his "posse." Instead of being a man yourself, you tried to gain respect by tearing down a kid who is still learning and growing. Maybe his decisions haven't been the best but your statements about him being more of a receiver, etc have more backhanded racism than anything you ever preach about. You are a fraud. Stop taking out your own shortcomings on a good kid who is going to continue to show people how wrong they are. I'm ending this with a letter to the Houston Chronicle a few weeks back. This is one of many stories just like it. Instead of doing some research, a novel approach for National Enquirer type writers like yourself, you just showed your *** at the expense of a good kid who will always have more heart and class than anyone in your profession or you. Anything to get attention for your small ego. You could have written a responsible article about bad choices without tearing Vince Young apart. You are a sorry excuse.

"Houston is fortunate to have three major-league sports teams plus other outstanding athletes. Despite their tremendous abilities and their substantial salaries, rarely do they give back to the community in proportion to their wealth--either in funds or time

Vince Young lost the Heisman, but one day last week he won the hearts of many patients at the Texas Children's Hospital. Without an obvious agent, with absolutely no fee, he talked to the children, signed autographs, took pictures and generally endeared himself forever.

The athletes of my generation were our idols and generally good role models. Houston's superstars need to take lessons form a superstar of tomorrow."

--Milton Nirken, M.D."