PDA

View Full Version : Elite QBs.....


thunderkyss
03-06-2006, 08:06 AM
Just wondering. I know some of you will think I'm taking a shot at somebody, or that I'm pimping someone else, but it's not like that. This has nothing to do with the Texans(hence we ain't in the Bull Pen) and nothing to do with the draft(hence we ain't in the draft section).

But I got to thinking.......... we are running out of Elite QBs.... Here's My list

W-L doesn't matter.....

Peyton Manning will always be elite to me.
Leftwhich, I love the guy.
Culpepper.... he's a freak
McNabb..... he's got the arm, he makes good decisions...... mostly.. I just don't think He or Culpepper have the leadership skills.
Tom Brady...... he's got too many rings not to count him.
Rothlisberger.... Yep, I think he's elite.

and that's it..... Up and Comers..
Chris Simms..... he didn't look that good @ Texas.
Hasselback...... he needs to put up at least one more good year for me to call him elite.
Carson Palmer......... Like Hassleback...... I need to make sure he isn't a one year wonder.

In your Opinion, who do you consider to be Elite, at the end of the 2005 season??

Wharton
03-06-2006, 08:40 AM
Brees should be on the list somewhere.

I don't agree with Culpepper being elite. When he lost Moss, his game slide. Culpepper need to have another good year without Moss before he can be elite.

thunderkyss
03-06-2006, 08:44 AM
In your Opinion, who do you consider to be Elite, at the end of the 2005 season??

Why is that so hard to do?? Am I speaking Greek?? That's my list, it ain't changing.

You don't agree with it, post yours.

WWJD
03-06-2006, 08:53 AM
Elite: Manning
Brady
McNabb
Palmer

Everybody else is just sort of jumbled together to me.

Kaiser Toro
03-06-2006, 08:57 AM
Manning
Culpepper
Brady
McNabb
Roethlisberger

thunderkyss
03-06-2006, 09:03 AM
Thanks guys...

WWJD
03-06-2006, 09:05 AM
I'm torn on Big Ben. On the one hand he's done fantastic for a young QB and you have to hand that to him.

On the other hand he can play so poorly that he flat out stinks and his team still wins.

I'm just not sure about him being elite. But I get where people would think that.

GoPats
03-06-2006, 09:46 AM
I think the only two truly elite QBs in the NFL right now are Brady and Manning.

Who else?

McNabb? Maybe, but I still think he was all messed up at the end of the Super Bowl.

Culpepper? Not after last year.

Palmer, Roethlisberger? Not yet.

cuppacoffee
03-06-2006, 09:46 AM
Troy Brady?

Still looking for the stats....maybe a composite....Troy Aikman+Tom Brady?

Johnny Unitas
Bart Starr
Ken Stabler
Joe Namath
Dan Marino
George Blanda..and he could kick field goals or opposing players in the *** I've seen him do both...:)

That's my list and Im sticking to it. :D

:coffee:

Edit: Forgive me all Irish fans...I left Joe Montana off my list. Blasphemy, Joe definitely belongs on the list

Wharton
03-06-2006, 10:12 AM
Why is that so hard to do?? Am I speaking Greek?? That's my list, it ain't changing.

You don't agree with it, post yours.
Well now, aren’t you snotty!

:loser

TheOgre
03-06-2006, 10:58 AM
Why is that so hard to do?? Am I speaking Greek?? That's my list, it ain't changing.

You don't agree with it, post yours.

You don't have to act like a jerk. Learn to use some tact, man. :stirpot:

Kaiser Toro
03-06-2006, 10:59 AM
Let's get back on topic.

TheTim5125
03-06-2006, 11:15 AM
I used to think an elite QB was all about the stats.. I now think elite QBs are guys who can get the job done.. he can manage a game and makes good decisions.

Tom Brady- obviously
Peyton- the man knows what he's doing
Carson Palmer- this season got it done, he's only gonna get better
Brett Favre- tough, had a really bad supporting cast
Roethlisberger- He just manages the game and has a great supporting cast

these guys are elite because they can manage the game, make quick precise decisions, know how to win and can get the team in position to win every week.

jerek
03-06-2006, 11:19 AM
Elite:

P Manning (still a playoff choker, but a consummate gamer.)

D McNabb (still not completely sold on the guy, but he has established a pretty consistent winning tradition until this year.)

T Brady (all world supporting cast/coaches, but the guy delivers time and time again)

Up and Comers:

B Roethlisberger (has played some really good games and some really bad games, and he still has one hell of a team around him.)

D Brees (shows up big but still disappears at times)

B Leftwich (has always looked "slow" to me, but he gets the job done when he's in the game)

D Carr (I said it! And no, I don't think he has demonstrated it yet, but I think he can and I am even going to say will be elite some day. Call me blind, homer, whatever, but I said it.)

C Palmer (w/o a doubt, I think he is going to be a bigtime gamer soon)

My initial thoughts. I might add more later as it occurs to me.

V Man
03-06-2006, 11:37 AM
.. Here's My list

W-L doesn't matter.....

Peyton Manning will always be elite to me.
Leftwhich, I love the guy.
Culpepper.... he's a freak
McNabb..... he's got the arm, he makes good decisions...... mostly.. I just don't think He or Culpepper have the leadership skills.
Tom Brady...... he's got too many rings not to count him.
Rothlisberger.... Yep, I think he's elite.

and that's it..... Up and Comers..
Chris Simms..... he didn't look that good @ Texas.
Hasselback...... he needs to put up at least one more good year for me to call him elite.
Carson Palmer......... Like Hassleback...... I need to make sure he isn't a one year wonder.



Agree with most of your list. But not with two of them.

First One- Leftwhich, In my opinion he is a long way from elite status. He may not even be the best QB on his team. Bryan may be even less mobile than Manning, and as fragile as fine china. Garrard seems to be a more rounded QB, and if I remember right lead the team to several victories at the end of the season when Leftwhich was out.

Second One- Simms hasn't played enough to even be considered an up and comer. Needs at least one more season of starts like how he ended the season, and maybe he could be added to the list.:twocents:

thunderkyss
03-06-2006, 11:38 AM
I used to think an elite QB was all about the stats.. I now think elite QBs are guys who can get the job done.. he can manage a game and makes good decisions.



For me, an Elite QB brings his A game week in, and week out, for several seasons. They don't have to be in a row, but someone like Brees needs to show he can do it again. and again. Not just because his job is on the line.

I put Ben up there, because he plays at a pretty high level, he makes mistakes, but he's more good, than not, and that ring makes up for the years of experience.

I personally don't like Tom Brady(I don't know why I always want to call him Troy) but I have no good reason for that........ heck I don't even have a bad reason....

WWJD
03-06-2006, 12:15 PM
Tom Brady is elite, to me, because he rarely makes mistakes and is just money when it's on the line. Not flashy, not loud, not fun to watch like Favre is.

I'd put Steve McNair in this same group a few years ago until injuries got the best of him.

whiskeyrbl
03-06-2006, 12:26 PM
Only 3 on my list:
Brady
Favre
P. Manning
Year after year after year getting it done!!!:superman:

Huge
03-06-2006, 01:27 PM
Here's the problem I have with your list...

But I got to thinking.......... we are running out of Elite QBs.... Here's My list

W-L doesn't matter.....

Peyton Manning will always be elite to me.
Leftwhich, I love the guy.
Culpepper.... he's a freak
McNabb..... he's got the arm, he makes good decisions...... mostly.. I just don't think He or Culpepper have the leadership skills.
Tom Brady...... he's got too many rings not to count him.
Rothlisberger.... Yep, I think he's elite.

and that's it..... Up and Comers..
Chris Simms..... he didn't look that good @ Texas.
Hasselback...... he needs to put up at least one more good year for me to call him elite.
Carson Palmer......... Like Hassleback...... I need to make sure he isn't a one year wonder.
Roethlisberger makes it. Hasselbeck and Palmer are on the edge because they need to prove they're not a one year wonder.

Roethlisberger has been in the league for a whopping two years. Are you saying both years were great enough seasons to warrant him being elite?

My list is short:

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Carson Palmer

That's it.

Kaiser Toro
03-06-2006, 01:33 PM
Very surprised many are leaving off Culpepper and McNabb, but have Palmer installed.

DominickDavisFan76
03-06-2006, 01:40 PM
Dave Ragone
David Carr
Tony Banks.......


JK:)

prolly Peyton Manning and Tom Brady

but here is my sleeper, I hate him but o well

I think that if Peyton teaches his little brother how to throw the football Eli Manning should be good in a couple years.

yourfavoritetexan42
03-06-2006, 01:46 PM
Elite QBs:

Manning
McNabb
Brady
Maybe Vick


When I say elite qb, without them, their team would be horrible. Roethlisberger was good... but he was also on a great team with great WRs a good running game and an awesome defense.

Leftwich? Good player like him... but not elite
Brees? Great supporting class but still a good qb nothing special

The Dude Abides
03-06-2006, 02:45 PM
Elite.
Manning. Best QB in the league.
Brady. Wins games.
Favre. Except for last year.

Close to Elite
McNabb- If he gets a guy like T.O. he'll move up again.
Culpepper - See above.
Hasselback- Has put up two Solid years in a row. Needs more respect.
Brees - See above.
Palmer - Probably going to be the best of the 5 out of this group.

A little lower
Trent Green
Marc Bulger (Might be the offensive system)
McNair about 3 years ago
Big Ben - 2 years. Sure he wins, but he's ugly sometimes.

Wharton
03-06-2006, 03:45 PM
Elite:
Tom Brady: Being elite is about more then being good, its about winning. 3 rings and counting.

Close to Elite: Good quarterbacks, just not elite yet.
Peyton Manning: He has all the tools to be elite, but has to start winning big games (that’s plural) to become elite.
Ben Rothlisberger: If he wins another ring, I’ll say he’s elite.
Matt Hassleback: Embattled quarterback who is fighting his way up the ladder, not to mention putting his team on his back to win the NFC championship. You gotta like that.
Donovan McNabb: Strong quarterback but the whole TO thing has really lowered his status as a QB and leader. It’ll be interesting to see how he does next year.
Daunte Culpepper: His stock is falling, see earlier post. And, don’t forget the boat thing; leaders don’t get in this kind of trouble.
Mike Vick: Sick skills, but needs to become a student of the game.
Drew Brees: Another embattled quarterback who is fighting his way up the ladder.
Jake Delhomme: Solid quarterback in a run based offense.

Up and Comers:
Carson Palmer: Let see how he does after the knee surgery.
Byron Leftwhich: This guy has sick skills on a very young team. Look for him to have a breakout year.
Marc Bulger: Doing the best he can with declining team in allot of turmoil.

Guys with potential:
Eli Manning: Apparently breeding counts for something. Has the skills, needs the experience.
Chris Simms: Sitting out for a year and a half really helped Simms.
David Carr: David is embattled for sure, but I didn’t see much fight in him last year. I’m giving our new coaching staff a shot at giving him his potential back. This is his last chance.

Crafty Veterans: My favorite kind of Quarterback. Old guys who found their place.
Trent Green: Right man for the job in KC.
Brad Johnson: Brad did well in Tampa and did better then Culpepper last year too.

Kaiser Toro
03-06-2006, 04:01 PM
I just do not understand how McNabb falls out of the elite category due to him being injured this year or due to the TO effect where he only played in 2004. Prior to this year he had been to four consecutive NFC Championships and five playoff appearances.

Moreover -
The Eagles have made the plyoffs 18 years - 5 with McNabb

The Eagles have 9 division championships in their history - 4 with McNabb

Just don't get the hate especially when people are so quick to elevate Palmer.

Wharton
03-06-2006, 06:05 PM
McNabb doesn't make the Elite list for me because he's lost 3 out of 4 NFC championships and I was unimpressed with the Super Bowl game (sick or not, I was still unimpressed). I rated Rothlisburger and Hassleback higher then McNabb because of this past year’s performance. We'll see if they can continue their high performance level.

This is what Palmer's 3rd year???? He's looking real good, but there needs to be some longevity to his career and some big wins before he can be classified as a "Strong QB". After saying that, I'm moving Rothlisburger down to "Up and Coming". Obviously, he has the big wins, now he needs some longevity (without team leader Bettis now).

Huge
03-06-2006, 08:11 PM
I'm not as quick to give credit to the QB just because his team won a Super Bowl (Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Jeff Hostetler?). I'm especially not going to give much credit to Roethlisberger after his performance.

I leave McNabb off because I think he does lack leadership qualities. I put a lot of the TO drama on McNabb. If he calls you out, punch him in the mouth. Don't drag it out because you want to take the high road. If you're the leader of the team, you nip it in the bud with a quickness.

Culpepper has had it pretty easy his career. Playing in a pass oriented offense while having Randy Moss and Cris Carter to toss the ball to can't hurt. Whatever changed the team went through prior to the season starting didn't seem to have a negative effect on Brad Johnson. Gus Frerote had really good numbers when he backed up Culpepper. Jeff George before Culpepper. Randall Cunningham before George. So is it the QB or is it the system/talent? We'll find out if he's able to come back from that injury.

thunderkyss
03-06-2006, 08:36 PM
Wharton, thank you for contributing.

Just one question.... QBs like Jim Kelly, Dan Foust, Dan Marino, Warren Moon... do you not consider these guys elite??

infantrycak
03-06-2006, 08:38 PM
I just do not understand how McNabb falls out of the elite category due to him being injured this year or due to the TO effect where he only played in 2004. Prior to this year he had been to four consecutive NFC Championships and five playoff appearances.

I wouldn't include McNabb as elite either and I have him as my QB in a dynasty league. While he is flashy, he has only passed for more than 60% one time in his career and has only had a QB rating over 90 one time--both the year he had TO. He is certainly upper end, but can't quite get to elite IMO.

Kaiser Toro
03-06-2006, 08:44 PM
I wouldn't include McNabb as elite either and I have him as my QB in a dynasty league. While he is flashy, he has only passed for more than 60% one time in his career and has only had a QB rating over 90 one time--both the year he had TO. He is certainly upper end, but can't quite get to elite IMO.

I have him as an elite guy because he is top tier stat wise and top tier from leading his team to NFL's final four in four of his six seasons. Pretty compelling stuff when you look at the total picture. Jim Kelly did it the same way and was a no brainer HOFer. If he continues this way he may not be elite in this board's book, but he will make it to the HOF.

infantrycak
03-06-2006, 08:51 PM
I have him as an elite guy because he is top tier stat wise and top tier from leading his team to NFL's final four in four of his six seasons. Pretty compelling stuff when you look at the total picture. Jim Kelly did it the same way and was a no brainer HOFer. If he continues this way he may not be elite in this board's book, but he will make it to the HOF.

Jim Kelly took his team to 4 straight super bowls. McNabb has made it to one and arguably had a really bad game on the ultimate stage rather than Kelly's running into the steamroller known as the Cowboys, etc. What is McNabb elite at other than yards?--he has only had over 30 TD's once and 20 TD's 3 times. He doesn't have a phenominal TD to INT ratio. His QB rating is good but not great. I would certainly put him in top 10 current QB's, heck maybe top 5 but JMO elite is reserved for special players not really good ones.

Kaiser Toro
03-06-2006, 09:13 PM
heck maybe top 5 but JMO elite is reserved for special players not really good ones.

We're not far off. I had him at #4.

thunderkyss
03-06-2006, 09:22 PM
Jim Kelly took his team to 4 straight super bowls. McNabb has made it to one and arguably had a really bad game on the ultimate stage rather than Kelly's running into the steamroller known as the Cowboys, etc. What is McNabb elite at other than yards?--he has only had over 30 TD's once and 20 TD's 3 times. He doesn't have a phenominal TD to INT ratio. His QB rating is good but not great. I would certainly put him in top 10 current QB's, heck maybe top 5 but JMO elite is reserved for special players not really good ones.

This is where we get into teams...... I don't like McNabb that much.... I think he is sorely lacking in leadership skills, and I question his inner desire to win..... I definitely classify him as borderline PrimaDonna...
But Donovan hasn't really had any real stars on his team... that's why there was such a big deal about T.O. McNabb finally got a #1 reciever..... You can call Westbrook a star all you want, but he was more likely to be a no show, than a gamebreaker........ He had Duece Staley for a year, but that's about as far as that goes. I'm not saying it, but it could be argued Donovan got his team to three consecutive Divisional Championship games, all by himself. Just like Peyton, except Peyton does have the best WR in the league...... period... true probowl offensive linemen, a pro bowl T.E.(well he should be if he ain't) and the Edge......

McNabb may not be the traditional QB, but he does win, and he does carry that team(as opposed to leading)..... Michael Vick is in the same situtation....... Atlanta doesn't look like they really want to surround him with any talent... and Vick doesn't look like an NFL QB...... looks like he's playing 7 on 7, or in a sandlot somewhere.......... but when he plays, his team wins..... at the end of his carreer, if he has more wins than not as a starting QB, it's going to be hard to not call him elite..... I'm not calling him elite now, and I don't think he ever will be, because there's no way he can continue to take the beating he is taking.....

Now 'bout them bills........ they lost twice to the cowboys, once to the giants, and once to the redskins eh??

Wharton
03-07-2006, 12:25 AM
Nope, to me, being an elite QB is more about winning then it is about numbers. Each of these players mentioned above are good, solid quarterbacks and I would love for the Texans to have one of them. Each has the tools to become an elite player, but for some reason didn't. Jim Kelly is a perfect example of a hall of fame player, but the Bills were 0-4 in Super Bowls. Kelly was surrounded by some very good player, Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas, just to name a few.

Off the top of my head, I can think of the following Elite QBs:
Johnny Unitas
Joe Montana
Terry Bradshaw
Roger Stauback
Bart Starr
Joe Namath
Troy Aikman
I am sure there are more, I just can’t think of any.

I may be different then other people when it comes to QB, because I really could care less about the numbers. I consider Terry Bradshaw to be an Elite QB, but to look at his number, most folks wouldn’t. Bradshaw had a below average QB rating of 70.9 (never higher then 85), a 51.9% completion ration and an almost equal number of interceptions as TD passes. So why do I consider him elite? Because he won the big games consistently. Yes, back then the Steelers were a juggernaut with the vaulted Steel Curtain defense and more offensive weapons then you can shake a stick at. This shouldn’t belittle Bradshaw’s accomplishments though because when the game was on the line, it was Bradshaw that beat you. As support, here’s an excerpt from his hall of fame bio:
In the 1974 AFC Championship Game against Oakland, his fourth-quarter touchdown pass to Lynn Swann proved to be the winning score in a 24-7 victory. In the Steelers’ Super Bowl IX victory over Minnesota that followed, his fourth-quarter touchdown pass put the game out of reach. In Super Bowl X, Bradshaw again threw the winning touchdown pass on a 64-yard bomb to Swann. He was named the Most Valuable Player in both Super Bowl XIII (35-31 over Dallas) and Super Bowl XIV (31-19 over the Los Angeles Rams).
Bottom line, Elite QBs find a way to win. If a team can get an elite QB, it’s because of luck more then anything else. Who knew Tom Brady would become the player he is today? I bet the Patriots didn't think a 6th round pick would become an Elite QB. Even if you take a player first in the draft, the best you can hope for is a solid player.

PS: Sorry I snapped at you earlier. Peace.:respect:

Huge
03-07-2006, 07:25 AM
So in your opinion Dan Marino was not an elite QB?

thunderkyss
03-07-2006, 08:11 AM
Nope, to me, being an elite QB is more about winning then it is about numbers. Each of these players mentioned above are good, solid quarterbacks and I would love for the Texans to have one of them. Each has the tools to become an elite player, but for some reason didn't. Jim Kelly is a perfect example of a hall of fame player, but the Bills were 0-4 in Super Bowls. Kelly was surrounded by some very good player, Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas, just to name a few.
In two of the game winning touchdown passes, Bradshaw threw it to Lynn Swann. A hall of famer himself.... Lynn was a big part of that team...... So much so, that without him, There may not have been a superbowl in Pittsburgh until 2006, Steel Curtain and all.
Jim Kelly IMHO made Andre Reed....... don't get me wrong, he was a fine reciever, but may not get into the HOF.......... ever.

But that's fine, if that's how you see Elite, that's how you see elite...... you obviously have another category for Marino, Kelly, Moon, Faust...... etc. For me, there is Elite, average, and loser..... average would be for guys like JakePlummer, Mark Brunnel, Drew Bledsoe, Mark Rypien, etc.... they've got the talent to be elite, they just don't have the heart...

Loser..... Charlie Batch, Quincy Carter, Brad Johnson(I don't know, I just don't like him), Billy Joe Tolliver....



Peace.:respect:

I ain't mad atcha......

Texas_Thrill
03-07-2006, 08:30 AM
Elite:

1) Brady. Mr. Clutch.

2) Manning. If it wasn't for #1 he might have a few rings himself.

3) McNair. He's a Gamer. Always brings it. Age is catching up QUICK.

4) Favre. Tough as Iron and will give you his best.

Up & Comers

1) Palmer. The kids on FIRE. I hope he recovers from that injury.

2) Hasslebeck (sp.). He's really really on the cusp.

3) Leftwhich. A throwback to old leadfooters but a cannon and gamer.

4) Brees. Turned it around after being written off as a bust.

5) Manning Jr. Yea looks like he's for real. Nature v. Nurture...Is it the genes?

6) Roth-b. Great manager. Could be a Brady. Not great #'s. Just wins baby.

Going the WRONG-way

1) Vick. Is it the offense he's in or will he just never get it?

2) McNabb. Injuries and no T.O. really made hurt him. Is he a Choker?

3) Culpepper. See comments above and substitute in Moss.

4) Carr. Constant beating might have the confidence shook. Still young.

HeartofHouston
03-07-2006, 08:50 AM
Elite List
-----
P. Manning
Brady
McNabb
Rothelisberger

Up and Coming
------
Palmer
Hasslebeck
E. Manning
Garrard
Grossman

Napa Auto Parts
03-08-2006, 10:45 PM
Dont wantto sound like a homer but i think David Carr should be considered and elite QB.:sarcasm:


P Manning
C Palmer
D Carr

all the other Qb's in the league are servicable but not to the level of the qb's mentioned above.

infantrycak
03-08-2006, 10:58 PM
Dont wantto sound like a homer but i think David Carr should be considered and elite QB.:sarcasm:

Why not?--broken record doesn't seem to bother you.

Napa Auto Parts
03-09-2006, 12:13 AM
Why not?--broken record doesn't seem to bother you.

depends what the subject is and how many times some ModS guess who? try to tell me they will ban me for talking about some certain players thru pm:stirpot: :redtowel:

infantrycak
03-09-2006, 07:25 AM
depends what the subject is and how many times some ModS guess who? try to tell me they will ban me for talking about some certain players thru pm:stirpot: :redtowel:

Don't start lying to the MB--you have never been told what opinion to have about any player. You have been warned about off topic spamming.

BigBull17
03-09-2006, 08:12 AM
I could only put 2 current QBs on the elite list, Brady and Manning. For me its hard to put McNabb on the list because of the year he broke his leg. The Eagles hardly missed a beat and hosted another NFC championship game. They marched through the regular season withKoy, or Ty, or Bry, or Shy, or Sly, or whoever Detmer. Their run with McNabb was when the NFC east was the NFC easy, and once he East got back on track, the wheels fell off. Just my :twocents: