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Historyhorn
03-01-2006, 06:38 PM
Let me preface this by saying that I'm a season ticket holder. I haven't been one from day one, but I got there as soon as I could financially.

I'm truly worried about the long-term health of this franchise (wins & losses, standing in the community). Before you Bush and Young backers come in droves, this is not a Bush vs. Young thread.

I worry for the health of this franchise for the following:

1) McNairs choice in Casserly has a proven track record of failure with respect to evaluating and bringing in talent to build a successful team. His head scratching moves are long and are chronicled all throughout the pages of threads. He's still with the franchise in some capacity, even if it is as a stool pigeon to take a fall when the losing continues. We've shown a surprising inability to make more good decisions than bad ones with respect to personnel.

2) There is a growing unrest and general deterioration in the public's perception of the franchise in Houston, but also in Texas at large. The first year the Texans came into existence, there was a competing radio broadcast in my market (West Texas) to the Cowboys broadcast. Both games on different stations, with sold out advertising. This past year, no Texans radio broadcast, yet the Cowboys broadcast is as strong as ever. In addition, from the first year of the franchise's existence, the Texan games were always on TV on the AFC affiliate. That was the case up until about halfway through this past year. From about week 8 onward, the local CBS affiliate took whatever game seemed most appealing (Steelers, Bears, Colts, Tampa Bay, etc.) and the Texans were not on TV....period. Any way you slice it or dice it, that is a baaaad thing. That didn't even happen to the Oilers when they had some abysmal teams.

3) The Bush vs. Young thing threatens to split this franchise's waning fan base right apart. There is a large sentiment amongst the city as well as a sizable group of season ticket holders who are actively supporting Young as the Texans pick. Many are even staking their season tickets on whether he is picked or not. On the other side, you've got people who want Reggie Bush. Some of those folks may feel that way because of hype, some because they are Longhorn haters, and others simply think he'll help the team to win more immediately. Either way for the Texans it is a lose/lose situation. Take Young, create local buzz, but not be closer to building the pieces for a longer term success (winning is several years away). Take Bush and alienate a portion of your fanbase and possibly have Young go to a division rival with the potential to haunt you twice a year for a decade or so. Then there is the potential that Reggie will be a third down only back and simply not be value for the first pick and the money he'll draw. A pick of Bush with him turning out to be a bust is the worst possible case scenario. It would almost be better to have won the SF game and not have the first pick so the team would have some modicum of an "out".

I'm hoping for the best, but unfortunately, there seem to be clouds of the Tampa Buccaneer type futility on the horizon. We'll know a lot over the course of the next 11 months or so.

Go Texans

HomeBred_Texan
03-01-2006, 06:44 PM
3) The Bush vs. Young thing threatens to split this franchise's waning fan base right apart.
Go Texans
I thought you said in the beginning you didnt want this to be a Bush verses Young thread? But you put it out there just for that....

I disagree on this point totally with you. The fans are fans no matter who they draft, unless they go completely bonkers on us. But for those who say draft bush or else and those that say draft young or else, all I can say is fare well amigos. You were not a fan to start with. Don't let that door hit you in a rear end....

Historyhorn
03-01-2006, 06:49 PM
I see drafting either one as doing potential damage to the long term health of the franchise.

I was trying to capture the Catch 22 aspect of this year's draft.

If you don't see it as a danger, fine. But I think it has the potential to be harmful, unless you think all of this Bush vs. Young crap is really beneficial to the club and the club's image. Just witness your signature line as evidence to what I allude.

By the way, which type of Bush proponent are you?

Go Texans

HomeBred_Texan
03-01-2006, 06:51 PM
I see drafting either one as doing potential damage to the long term health of the franchise.

I was trying to capture the Catch 22 aspect of this year's draft.

If you don't see it as a danger, fine. But I think it has the potential to be harmful, unless you think all of this Bush vs. Young crap is really beneficial to the club and the club's image.

Go Texans
I havent seen this much buzz about the Texans from fans since years 1 and 2. I think someone is doing excellent PR work myself...

Historyhorn
03-01-2006, 06:53 PM
Problem is that it is not positive buzz.

Runner
03-01-2006, 06:54 PM
Winning cures everything. None of this matters if we become a team that consistently challenges for the play-offs and wins some play-offs games.

TexanBacker93
03-01-2006, 06:58 PM
While I agree that the Young vs. Bush stuff is mindless and *****ic, I don't think it will affect the longterm standing of the fanbase. Anyone who won't stay a fan of the team because the team won't pick a specific player isn't a true fan. Yes, Young would create some added interest from people who don't normally follow the Texans. A lot of the strong VY backers in the forums have member dates in January of 2006. While they might have been casual fans the thought of having VY stay home has made them even more interested in the team. However, no one player will keep the fan interest as much as winning will. If the team feels that the best way to create a winning organization is to go with Young or Bush or someone else and they do that, it won't matter to the largest part of the fan base. If Young comes back from Tennessee once a year the real fans will enjoy seeing him play, but will root for the Texans to beat them.

HomeBred_Texan
03-01-2006, 07:15 PM
By the way, which type of Bush proponent are you?

Go Texans
Well since you asked, I am for drafting smart. And Vince isnt smart.......

Why waste the first pick on a project like that. Total BS.....

edo783
03-01-2006, 07:26 PM
While I agree that the Young vs. Bush stuff is mindless and *****ic, I don't think it will affect the longterm standing of the fanbase. Anyone who won't stay a fan of the team because the team won't pick a specific player isn't a true fan. Yes, Young would create some added interest from people who don't normally follow the Texans. A lot of the strong VY backers in the forums have member dates in January of 2006. While they might have been casual fans the thought of having VY stay home has made them even more interested in the team. However, no one player will keep the fan interest as much as winning will. If the team feels that the best way to create a winning organization is to go with Young or Bush or someone else and they do that, it won't matter to the largest part of the fan base. If Young comes back from Tennessee once a year the real fans will enjoy seeing him play, but will root for the Texans to beat them.

Well said. A UT fan who is actually a real Texans fan and not just a VY fan. Your type seems to be few and far between these days. Thanks for being here.

Long-Spurs-Texan
03-01-2006, 07:34 PM
Well since you asked, I am for drafting smart. And Vince isnt smart.......

Why waste the first pick on a project like that. Total BS.....

He's probably smart enough not to pimp out a Ford Explorer. Just a guess...

Kaiser Toro
03-01-2006, 07:36 PM
Anyone who bases their fanaticism on an unproven rookie is more of a fan for that player's potential than the concept of rooting for a team. Every franchise has an ebb and flow of fans that come around when the team is winning, change of coach or in the spotlight due to a high draft pick. We are hitting two for three right now.

It is the die hards who believe in the franchise and painfully have to succumb to sophomoric banter that comes with being a losing franchise. But it is them who have realistic expectations or cautious optimism by wanting to debate on the merits of the current assets and dollars available for acquisition rather than a popularity contest as there have plenty of can't miss prospects miss. The die hards will get their day again when the NFL prom finishes in late April.

Carr Bombed
03-01-2006, 07:46 PM
Problem is that it is not positive buzz.

No positive Buzz :confused: We just hired a new coach who helped build one of the most successful football programs over the past decade and hired another former head coach who had consistent success until his team was decimated with injuries. Plus we have the #1 ovrl. pick and 4 picks in the top 70, but draft aside, the moves we have made already has made this a successful offseason.

What are you talking about no positive buzz.

As far as the Bush and Young debate, don't buy into what you read on this board, whoever we draft isn't going to send half the city jumping off a bridge. It is actually very small in the big scheme of things.

TEXANFAN23435
03-01-2006, 07:58 PM
HistoryHorn, you and all the UT fans are going to have to come to grips with the Texans not drafting VY. It's done, powers that be have proclaimed DC the man. It's a very simple decision for the Texans now that VY has slipped to the 3rd best QB available in this years draft behind JC. I mean, what sane football fan would demand that their team take the 3rd best player at their position with the 1st overall pick???

I will also add for good measure that RB is not the player we need. If we are hell bent on drafting a running back with our 1st pick, then trade down, stock additional picks and with our first pick, take DeAngelo Williams or LenDale White. These two guys represent the best 2 backs available in this years draft. Both could carry the ball between the T's, have the speed to take it outside, can deliver punishment at point of contact, have the size plus durability to carry the ball 20 to 30 times a game and like Eddie George gets stronger in the 3rd and 4th quarters. I'm sorry, RB is not this kind of back.

I'd like to see us nab a few of the Ohio St players and UT's DB. I really like that trio of LB's from OSU.

HomeBred_Texan
03-01-2006, 08:29 PM
He's probably smart enough not to pimp out a Ford Explorer. Just a guess...

If you call this pimping out....


http://www.explorerforum.com/data/502/21512Accident1.jpg

TexanSam
03-01-2006, 08:34 PM
Winning will solve all of our problems. Let's assume Young gets picked 3rd by the Titans. Now let's pretend Young becomes and awesome QB on a cruddy team. He's an MVP candidate year almost every year, but the Titans can't manage to win games. Now pretend we draft Reggie Bush and he becomes a decent back. Not a great one, but maybe 1100 yards a season. Not too shabby, but not what the expectactions were when he got drafted. But the Texans have a winning team year in and year out. Now if this happened, I don't think fans would care that we didn't draft Vince Young. Winning puts fans in the seats, not individual players.

keyfro
03-01-2006, 08:54 PM
there is reason to be worried about this franchise but it's not because of the draft it's because of the CBA and the players union...it's because the owners are divided and we're heading to a bad point in time for pro football...if there is no cap in 2007 it's going to get worse and worse...although with no cap this would be a league owned by the larger market teams which we are one...so there might be some upside to that...but a competitive NFL is what's fun to watch not like MLB where you are garenteed the yanks, sox, and braves are gonna be in the playoffs every year

Historyhorn
03-01-2006, 09:11 PM
For what it's worth. I am a Texas fan. I love what Vince has done for my college team. But I do not think he is the wise pick for the Texans, my professional football team.

The wise pick is to trade the hell out of number one. Draft OL and front 7 on the D. Pick up a back later in the draft if you're hell bent on getting one.

If you've got to have a new franchise QB, then Leinart is the man. He is the "safe" pick. He's the prototype NFL QB and will be the quickest of the top three to be ready to win.

Young has the most upside of the three top QB's, but he also entails risk that Leinart does not. I do not think Cutler will make a better NFL QB than Young over the long haul. He has Ryan Leaf written all over him in.

As to negative buzz. The damn Bush vs. Young debate is not the kind of publicity and buzz you'd want for the franchise.

New coaching staff, great. Several early picks, great. But most of that is being overshadowed by the bashing on both sides of the Young/Bush debate. See Explorer boy for the prime example.

Long term, it may be a mole-hill, but it is something that this franchise doesn't need right now.

As to the other issues for the health of the franchise, I think we've squandered an opportunity to win fans across the state. Winning does cure a lot, but don't think that this franchise has done itself any favors with respect to the long-term fanbase outside of the immediate Houston area, and even inside Harris County with the bumbling nature of the front office and prior coaching regime.

Go Texans

HomeBred_Texan
03-01-2006, 09:40 PM
See Explorer boy for the prime example.


Why get personal? I have said all along if we need a back, that Deangleo (sp?) from Memphis is the best choice and if we had to have a QB right now, Leinart is the best pick. I don't care if we trade completely out of the first round, I will still be in my seats watching them win or lose. But I got tired of all of the newbies coming in here after watching Texas beat USC and claiming they would leave the fan base if we did not draft Vince Young. It is only my opinion that he is not the best choice for us as a football team now because he needs time to develop and we need help now. But you made a statement about MY team and I replied. After the draft I will be glad to change my signature line to something else, but not until then......

And just for your information, I am not a kid...

HJam72
03-01-2006, 10:09 PM
I don't think too many people will stop being Texan fans if they don't get Bush. As far as the VY crowd goes, I suspect that many of them were not Texan fans until they started thinking we might get VY in the first place, so losing them would not be much of a loss really. I think that, no matter how you look at it, this team will start next season with more fans than it had late last year and that will definitely continue if they have a better season, which they surely will. Just bringing in Kubiak has ussured many that they are a franchise to root for.

I think most of the people who say they won't continue with this team if we don't do "X" have not been fans very long anyway. There are always exceptions of course.

Historyhorn
03-01-2006, 10:17 PM
Apologies. Shouldn't have called you out.

Go Texans

zeplin
03-01-2006, 11:02 PM
Let me preface this by saying that I'm a season ticket holder. I haven't been one from day one, but I got there as soon as I could financially.

I'm truly worried about the long-term health of this franchise (wins & losses, standing in the community). Before you Bush and Young backers come in droves, this is not a Bush vs. Young thread.

I worry for the health of this franchise for the following:

1) McNairs choice in Casserly has a proven track record of failure with respect to evaluating and bringing in talent to build a successful team. His head scratching moves are long and are chronicled all throughout the pages of threads. He's still with the franchise in some capacity, even if it is as a stool pigeon to take a fall when the losing continues. We've shown a surprising inability to make more good decisions than bad ones with respect to personnel.

2) There is a growing unrest and general deterioration in the public's perception of the franchise in Houston, but also in Texas at large. The first year the Texans came into existence, there was a competing radio broadcast in my market (West Texas) to the Cowboys broadcast. Both games on different stations, with sold out advertising. This past year, no Texans radio broadcast, yet the Cowboys broadcast is as strong as ever. In addition, from the first year of the franchise's existence, the Texan games were always on TV on the AFC affiliate. That was the case up until about halfway through this past year. From about week 8 onward, the local CBS affiliate took whatever game seemed most appealing (Steelers, Bears, Colts, Tampa Bay, etc.) and the Texans were not on TV....period. Any way you slice it or dice it, that is a baaaad thing. That didn't even happen to the Oilers when they had some abysmal teams.

3) The Bush vs. Young thing threatens to split this franchise's waning fan base right apart. There is a large sentiment amongst the city as well as a sizable group of season ticket holders who are actively supporting Young as the Texans pick. Many are even staking their season tickets on whether he is picked or not. On the other side, you've got people who want Reggie Bush. Some of those folks may feel that way because of hype, some because they are Longhorn haters, and others simply think he'll help the team to win more immediately. Either way for the Texans it is a lose/lose situation. Take Young, create local buzz, but not be closer to building the pieces for a longer term success (winning is several years away). Take Bush and alienate a portion of your fanbase and possibly have Young go to a division rival with the potential to haunt you twice a year for a decade or so. Then there is the potential that Reggie will be a third down only back and simply not be value for the first pick and the money he'll draw. A pick of Bush with him turning out to be a bust is the worst possible case scenario. It would almost be better to have won the SF game and not have the first pick so the team would have some modicum of an "out".

I'm hoping for the best, but unfortunately, there seem to be clouds of the Tampa Buccaneer type futility on the horizon. We'll know a lot over the course of the next 11 months or so.

Go Texans



Ah Geez. VY Vs RB thread in disguise. Come on lets give these guys a chance. I trust Kubiak
So far He has cut Walker,Banks, and Coleman all smart decisions.
We need to relax and let him run his show. As far as RB or VY I say trede down for d'brickshaw Fergusen and be done with all the BS.:homer:

Koolbrz
03-01-2006, 11:19 PM
Let me preface this by saying that I'm a season ticket holder. I haven't been one from day one, but I got there as soon as I could financially.

I'm truly worried about the long-term health of this franchise (wins & losses, standing in the community). Before you Bush and Young backers come in droves, this is not a Bush vs. Young thread.

I worry for the health of this franchise for the following:

1) McNairs choice in Casserly has a proven track record of failure with respect to evaluating and bringing in talent to build a successful team. His head scratching moves are long and are chronicled all throughout the pages of threads. He's still with the franchise in some capacity, even if it is as a stool pigeon to take a fall when the losing continues. We've shown a surprising inability to make more good decisions than bad ones with respect to personnel.

2) There is a growing unrest and general deterioration in the public's perception of the franchise in Houston, but also in Texas at large. The first year the Texans came into existence, there was a competing radio broadcast in my market (West Texas) to the Cowboys broadcast. Both games on different stations, with sold out advertising. This past year, no Texans radio broadcast, yet the Cowboys broadcast is as strong as ever. In addition, from the first year of the franchise's existence, the Texan games were always on TV on the AFC affiliate. That was the case up until about halfway through this past year. From about week 8 onward, the local CBS affiliate took whatever game seemed most appealing (Steelers, Bears, Colts, Tampa Bay, etc.) and the Texans were not on TV....period. Any way you slice it or dice it, that is a baaaad thing. That didn't even happen to the Oilers when they had some abysmal teams.

3) The Bush vs. Young thing threatens to split this franchise's waning fan base right apart. There is a large sentiment amongst the city as well as a sizable group of season ticket holders who are actively supporting Young as the Texans pick. Many are even staking their season tickets on whether he is picked or not. On the other side, you've got people who want Reggie Bush. Some of those folks may feel that way because of hype, some because they are Longhorn haters, and others simply think he'll help the team to win more immediately. Either way for the Texans it is a lose/lose situation. Take Young, create local buzz, but not be closer to building the pieces for a longer term success (winning is several years away). Take Bush and alienate a portion of your fanbase and possibly have Young go to a division rival with the potential to haunt you twice a year for a decade or so. Then there is the potential that Reggie will be a third down only back and simply not be value for the first pick and the money he'll draw. A pick of Bush with him turning out to be a bust is the worst possible case scenario. It would almost be better to have won the SF game and not have the first pick so the team would have some modicum of an "out".

I'm hoping for the best, but unfortunately, there seem to be clouds of the Tampa Buccaneer type futility on the horizon. We'll know a lot over the course of the next 11 months or so.

Go Texans


First of all, winning cures all. If we can put together some wins next yr. the fans will be back or should i say the so called fans. Me, i will be there from begining to end. I'm not goin to jump ship if they don't draft VY. Those of you that will, are not true Texan fans. All i can say is, Don't let the door hit you on the *** on your way out!!! We should just trust the people making the decisions and hope that things will be better next yr. I am. GO TEXANS!!!!:texflag:

HoustonFan
03-02-2006, 12:13 AM
First of all, winning cures all. If we can put together some wins next yr. the fans will be back or should i say the so called fans. Me, i will be there from begining to end. I'm not goin to jump ship if they don't draft VY. Those of you that will, are not true Texan fans. All i can say is, Don't let the door hit you on the *** on your way out!!! We should just trust the people making the decisions and hope that things will be better next yr. I am. GO TEXANS!!!!:texflag:

GO Texans!!! I'm in total agreement. When this team is winning, all of a sudden those that "should have been drafted" won't even matter. This team will be fine.

jacquescas
03-02-2006, 12:16 AM
a 2-14 team doesn't deserve to be on TV anywhere but their local market, and then only to punish the fans.

This is Texas and football is big, no matter what we do in the draft we are going to sell out games. You can give ur tickets up but someone else will take them

Bush, Young, Trade down, whatever winning will bring fans period. We could trade all our picks away but if we win 10+ games the fans will be estatic no matter who is doing what with the ball.

The CBA issue scares me more, i think a deal will be struck late, but i dont want an uncapped year cause i'm not sure how much McNair is willing to spend. I'd rather keep the status quo.

outofhnd
03-02-2006, 12:22 AM
NO CBA is not a big deal... owners that go out and spend money on high priced players have mediocre seasons...

See Dan Snyder & the redskins pre Joe Gibbs.
See Also Oakland Raiders after John Gruden.

Too many pricey players doesnt equal winning. Just get some pieces that we need and go from there.

swtbound07
03-02-2006, 12:31 AM
meh....0-16, 16-0, i'll be a fan

Reggie Bush, Vince Young, I'll be a fan

Mario Williams, Dbrick Ferguson, I'll be a fan

100 longhorns on our roster or 0, I'll be a fan.

You can change the players, but you cant change me as a fan...i've been here, i'm here now, i'll be here 20 years from now, god willing.

Marcus
03-02-2006, 07:43 AM
NO CBA is not a big deal... owners that go out and spend money on high priced players have mediocre seasons..
Yeah . . and on the other end of the scale, owners who are tight-wads will put their teams at a disadvantage also.

No CBA is a big deal . . more than this VY vs. Bush BS will ever be. No CBA and no salary cap will destroy competitive balance between the 32 teams. That is the only thing about the NFL and the Texans that is truly worth worrying about.

Vinny
03-02-2006, 11:39 AM
No CBA is a big deal . . more than this VY vs. Bush BS will ever be. No CBA and no salary cap will destroy competitive balance between the 32 teams. That is the only thing about the NFL and the Texans that is truly worth worrying about.I was a fan of the NFL way way way before the cap....it was a great league then too. I'm not worried one bit about this. I'm not worried about this franchise either...it's run by some pretty smart folks....they just need to get their on-field decisions tightened up a bit.

LBC_Justin
03-02-2006, 11:48 AM
I was a fan of the NFL way way way before the cap....it was a great league then too. I'm not worried one bit about this. I'm not worried about this franchise either...it's run by some pretty smart folks....they just need to get their on-field decisions tightened up a bit.Thank you for reminding people there was football before the cap.

Ummm...The Steelers(small market), Cowboys, Redskins, Packers(small market), 49er all had their great runs before the cap.

DRAMA
03-02-2006, 11:56 AM
Who cares about the arguing? When we see someone who needs to get over on the freeway, why don't we let them over and why do we speed up? Because we like confrontation. The bad news is that the arguing over the pick is over on May 1st - enjoy it for what it is...passion.

This is not the end of the world - it's just another day...let's just have fun with the debate.

Bobo
03-02-2006, 12:59 PM
I think their choice of an inexperienced coach who hired an inexperienced staff is more unsettling. Looks like 3-13/4-12 for years to come.

Historyhorn
03-02-2006, 03:15 PM
The thing that was different about the pre-salary cap NFL era that most people tend to miss is the fact that there was little to no free agency during those years.

The free agency and cap went into effect right after the very young Cowboys team won their '92? Super Bowl. They won two of the next three, but were torn apart by free agency, and had cap hell after the team was broken up, because of the way they structured their deals to keep their big 3 and others on the team.

With little to no free agency, the owners were able to generally keep a lid on player salaries. With an open free agency market, you'll see salaries for the top end players spike like you've never seen before.

Go Texans

Double Barrel
03-02-2006, 03:53 PM
meh....0-16, 16-0, i'll be a fan

Reggie Bush, Vince Young, I'll be a fan

Mario Williams, Dbrick Ferguson, I'll be a fan

100 longhorns on our roster or 0, I'll be a fan.

You can change the players, but you cant change me as a fan...i've been here, i'm here now, i'll be here 20 years from now, god willing.

Ditto, and well said. I agree completely.

As posters have already stated, winning cures all of these perceived problems. The only reason the Cowboys have such a large following (and regular broadcasts) is their winning tradition.

As far as fans that threaten to give up season tickets over one player, fine, give it up. There are many that will gladly take their place, and even more once we have a winning season. That's a bandwagon mentality, and there is no pleasing a fairweather fan (except winning, of course).

I was a fan of the NFL way way way before the cap....it was a great league then too. I'm not worried one bit about this. I'm not worried about this franchise either...it's run by some pretty smart folks....they just need to get their on-field decisions tightened up a bit.

Exactly. While I think the CBA has been great for the league, I don't think it's the end of the world without it. There will be some disparities and things to work out, but the NFL was pretty a powerful product before they made this agreement.

The Texans are going to be alright, ya' hear? It is a very young franchise, and the owner is learning things year by year. I have no doubt that he wants to win as much as, or even more, than any of us could imagine.

Marcus
03-02-2006, 04:24 PM
The thing that was different about the pre-salary cap NFL era that most people tend to miss is the fact that there was little to no free agency during those years.

The free agency and cap went into effect right after the very young Cowboys team won their '92? Super Bowl. They won two of the next three, but were torn apart by free agency, and had cap hell after the team was broken up, because of the way they structured their deals to keep their big 3 and others on the team.

With little to no free agency, the owners were able to generally keep a lid on player salaries. With an open free agency market, you'll see salaries for the top end players spike like you've never seen before.

You'd better believe it.

Hey . . . if you want to throw out the cap, throw out free agency along with it. . and I'm cool with it. I was a fan of the NFL before the cap too! It was a great league then. You didn't have to worry about your players jumping from team to team because they were moping that they weren't getting paid enough.

But you can't roll back the clock. Sorry about that! But now, you can't have one without the other.

Historyhorn
03-02-2006, 04:57 PM
MLB is the example of what you'd eventually have without a cap and no limits on free agency.

While the paradigms of the two games are different, I would contend that the NFL would begin to go the way of MLB in a business and competitive sense.

What is the point for the Royals to even field a team, other than to fill out the schedule for the other teams in the league. How about the Pirates or Devil Rays? As a fan you know your team has no chance of winning the championship.

The NFL's recipe for being the greatest sports league (and most lucrative) in the world is the parity of opportunity between all of the teams in the league. It doesn't mean your team won't suck (see Texans last year), but it does mean that you sucked because of the decisions your front office and ownership made. You have just as much chance as any other team in the league to win it all and be successful. The key is front office staff, coaching, and making good personnel decisions within the framework and rules of the league.

Go Texans

Kaiser Toro
03-02-2006, 05:05 PM
MLB is the example of what you'd eventually have without a cap and no limits on free agency.

While the paradigms of the two games are different, I would contend that the NFL would begin to go the way of MLB in a business and competitive sense.

What is the point for the Royals to even field a team, other than to fill out the schedule for the other teams in the league. How about the Pirates or Devil Rays? As a fan you know your team has no chance of winning the championship.

The NFL's recipe for being the greatest sports league (and most lucrative) in the world is the parity of opportunity between all of the teams in the league. It doesn't mean your team won't suck (see Texans last year), but it does mean that you sucked because of the decisions your front office and ownership made. You have just as much chance as any other team in the league to win it all and be successful. The key is front office staff, coaching, and making good personnel decisions within the framework and rules of the league.

Go Texans


I do agree with this assessment. There is a reason why the NFL and NBA have catapulted ahead of the MLB and the salary cap is a big reason why.

Erratic Assassin
03-02-2006, 07:47 PM
The first year the Texans came into existence, there was a competing radio broadcast in my market (West Texas) to the Cowboys broadcast. Both games on different stations, with sold out advertising. This past year, no Texans radio broadcast, yet the Cowboys broadcast is as strong as ever. In addition, from the first year of the franchise's existence, the Texan games were always on TV on the AFC affiliate. That was the case up until about halfway through this past year.

We were supposed to be a team on the rise and the Cowboys were supposed to be a team on the decline (they got beat by an expansion team playing their first game ever). It makes me sick that the opposite happened because we missed out on a golden opportunity. The lack of TV and radio coverage goes with the territory. To the winner goes the spoils. No one outside of Houston wants to see our sorry team.

Win consistently and the coverage will improve.

aj.
03-02-2006, 08:01 PM
... and the salary cap is a big reason why.

As is revenue sharing in the NFL, which is arguably a bigger reason and predates the cap by nearly three decades.

I think there's a lot of people out there who recall the pre-cap era. It's not like you have to go back to the days of Jim Brown to profess these 'good old days' ... the formative NFL years of Troy Aikman, yes ...

outofhnd
03-02-2006, 09:35 PM
Considering we are one of the Large Market Franchises, not to mention pretty much the only large market team in our division. Why should we worry about a capless season? I wouldnt mind seeing Free Agency go away.. Makes it easier to remember who plays for your team year in and year out. It also gives your more of a tie in with that player beyond the stats.. They become regulars around town, heros. Can you imagine seein brett favre in a jersey other than the packers? Or Troy Aikman in something other than silver and blue? Money has turned this game into something it shouldnt be. A Business. you cant call football these days a game because it is a business. Its like watching the stockmarket and argueing over trades... But it is a business.. There will be a CBA once both sides get over their initial greed, and actually try to work things out. So I wouldnt worry.

infantrycak
03-02-2006, 11:33 PM
I wouldnt mind seeing Free Agency go away..

But, uncapped and no free agency aren't synonymous. Just because the top is popped off the bottle cap-wise, doesn't mean you are stuffing the free agent genie back in the bottle.

Kaiser Toro
03-03-2006, 12:32 AM
As is revenue sharing in the NFL, which is arguably a bigger reason and predates the cap by nearly three decades.

I think there's a lot of people out there who recall the pre-cap era. It's not like you have to go back to the days of Jim Brown to profess these 'good old days' ... the formative NFL years of Troy Aikman, yes ...

I recall the pre cap era as well and have no qualms going back, but do indeed prefer the cap. However, I do realize that the cap would have a positive effect on the franchise moving forward.

michaelm
03-03-2006, 04:12 AM
I recall the pre cap era as well and have no qualms going back, but do indeed prefer the cap. However, I do realize that the cap would have a positive effect on the franchise moving forward.


At this point, the Texans could improve more quickly without a cap. Don't get me wrong, I am totally for having a cap, but if there were no cap considerations, McNair would bring in plenty of FAs IMO. You wouldn't hear a peep about any players not wanting to come here because we aren't contenders.
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Plus, the reputation of our organization is well respected and the facilities are first rate. Not to mention no state income tax. We'd be able to bring in plenty of talent quickly.

Another thing to consider is that IMO teams like ours would not fret so much about the age of the free agents we bring in. Currently, age is one of the top factors that we consider on these MBs when discussing FAs. But with no cap, you just sign who can help right now (with a practical contract fitting the players age) and if the guy breaks down, you just bring in another one... I'm sure McNair would pony up the jack, it would be a profitable investment. Broken down players don't create dead cap space without the cap.

Tha_Tinman
03-03-2006, 04:17 AM
At this point, the Texans could improve more quickly without a cap. Don't get me wrong, I am totally for having a cap, but if there were no cap considerations, McNair would bring in plenty of FAs IMO. You wouldn't hear a peep about any players not wanting to come here because we aren't contenders.
$
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Plus, the reputation of our organization is well respected and the facilities are first rate. Not to mention no state income tax. We'd be able to bring in plenty of talent quickly.


You just hit the nail on tha head. I've been monitoring that whole deal. I must admit that I've been silently cheering for a no cap season. If that happens, I'm going to the pawn shop with everything ...and I'm buying season tickets ...I don't care if the seats are in the bathroom.

Let's go McNair ...make it happen!

aj.
03-03-2006, 07:00 AM
However, I do realize that the cap would have a positive effect on the franchise moving forward.

On the contrary, I think the absence of a cap would help the Texans and the other "have's," rise to the top of the league, but I also think the absence of a cap in this day and age would have an overall negative effect on the league, even with continued revenue sharing.

Malloy
03-03-2006, 07:21 AM
Winning cures everything. None of this matters if we become a team that consistently challenges for the play-offs and wins some play-offs games.

I think this is the solution too, this is a new team and we need to get past that expansion-team hump. I know that we technically are past that point, but in the minds of most football viewers (not just "fans") we are still an expansion team because we more or less act like one.

Once we start showing teeth ( in my book, beating the Colts for the first time) then thing will change.

Kaiser Toro
03-03-2006, 08:45 AM
On the contrary, I think the absence of a cap would help the Texans and the other "have's," rise to the top of the league, but I also think the absence of a cap in this day and age would have an overall negative effect on the league, even with continued revenue sharing.

That is what I was trying to say. The word absence or lack would have helped.

cowbellm00
03-03-2006, 08:52 AM
Let me preface this by saying that I'm a season ticket holder. I haven't been one from day one, but I got there as soon as I could financially.

I'm truly worried about the long-term health of this franchise (wins & losses, standing in the community). Before you Bush and Young backers come in droves, this is not a Bush vs. Young thread.

I worry for the health of this franchise for the following:

1) McNairs choice in Casserly has a proven track record of failure with respect to evaluating and bringing in talent to build a successful team. His head scratching moves are long and are chronicled all throughout the pages of threads. He's still with the franchise in some capacity, even if it is as a stool pigeon to take a fall when the losing continues. We've shown a surprising inability to make more good decisions than bad ones with respect to personnel.

2) There is a growing unrest and general deterioration in the public's perception of the franchise in Houston, but also in Texas at large. The first year the Texans came into existence, there was a competing radio broadcast in my market (West Texas) to the Cowboys broadcast. Both games on different stations, with sold out advertising. This past year, no Texans radio broadcast, yet the Cowboys broadcast is as strong as ever. In addition, from the first year of the franchise's existence, the Texan games were always on TV on the AFC affiliate. That was the case up until about halfway through this past year. From about week 8 onward, the local CBS affiliate took whatever game seemed most appealing (Steelers, Bears, Colts, Tampa Bay, etc.) and the Texans were not on TV....period. Any way you slice it or dice it, that is a baaaad thing. That didn't even happen to the Oilers when they had some abysmal teams.

3) The Bush vs. Young thing threatens to split this franchise's waning fan base right apart. There is a large sentiment amongst the city as well as a sizable group of season ticket holders who are actively supporting Young as the Texans pick. Many are even staking their season tickets on whether he is picked or not. On the other side, you've got people who want Reggie Bush. Some of those folks may feel that way because of hype, some because they are Longhorn haters, and others simply think he'll help the team to win more immediately. Either way for the Texans it is a lose/lose situation. Take Young, create local buzz, but not be closer to building the pieces for a longer term success (winning is several years away). Take Bush and alienate a portion of your fanbase and possibly have Young go to a division rival with the potential to haunt you twice a year for a decade or so. Then there is the potential that Reggie will be a third down only back and simply not be value for the first pick and the money he'll draw. A pick of Bush with him turning out to be a bust is the worst possible case scenario. It would almost be better to have won the SF game and not have the first pick so the team would have some modicum of an "out".

I'm hoping for the best, but unfortunately, there seem to be clouds of the Tampa Buccaneer type futility on the horizon. We'll know a lot over the course of the next 11 months or so.

Go Texans


Drafting one man won't change the outcome of a "teams" performance. The key word is "team" from the coaches to the kickers and everyone in between. The Texans biggest problem up to this point has been coaching on all levels. Players are simply pawns. This is an elite league, and every player on that field is great. But there is no one player that we can draft , or let go, or keep that will carry much weight in our quest to victory. I feel the biggest problem has already been adressed with our coaching changes.
As for my pick...I do favor Bush as our pick. I think him, Davis, and Wells will turn us back into a "run first" team. Combined with a better blocking scheme will open the backfield for Carr. Defence going to a 4-3.....yeah, I'm happy with this new set up for my Texans! I've been a fan since day one and will be even if we're 1-15 again. One day it will turn around, and a true fan will pull for their team no matter what.
GO TEXANS!!!

profan
03-03-2006, 09:04 AM
Drafting one man won't change the outcome of a "teams" performance. The key word is "team" from the coaches to the kickers and everyone in between. The Texans biggest problem up to this point has been coaching on all levels. Players are simply pawns. This is an elite league, and every player on that field is great. But there is no one player that we can draft , or let go, or keep that will carry much weight in our quest to victory. I feel the biggest problem has already been adressed with our coaching changes.
As for my pick...I do favor Bush as our pick. I think him, Davis, and Wells will turn us back into a "run first" team. Combined with a better blocking scheme will open the backfield for Carr. Defence going to a 4-3.....yeah, I'm happy with this new set up for my Texans! I've been a fan since day one and will be even if we're 1-15 again. One day it will turn around, and a true fan will pull for their team no matter what.
GO TEXANS!!!
Think we have been a run first team all along. Remember one game last year where carr had like three pass attempts in the first half. How about a good "run first" team.

Big B Texan Fan
03-03-2006, 09:26 AM
Think we have been a run first team all along. Remember one game last year where carr had like three pass attempts in the first half. How about a good "run first" team.
1 for 3 w/2 sax and an int. :stirpot:

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 09:46 AM
1 for 3 w/2 sax and an int. :stirpot:

Or it would be more accurately described as:

Carr scrambling for 4 1st downs--34 yds total (hmmm, guess he wasn't running OB's at the line of scrimmage)
Carr sacked eight yards deep--Carr did have time on this play and held the ball too long
1 completion not for a 1st
1 completion for a 1st
1 completion for a TD
1 incomplete pass
1 interception--ball thrown to the right spot and Bradford fails to cut letting DB have it.

3 of 5 for 36 yds, 1 TD and 1 INT

Score 14-14 going into half-time.

The soup is much better when the pot is stirred properly.

DenverBorn
03-04-2006, 02:43 PM
I think it is very difficult for an expansion team to consistently win until most of the team's original players have moved on. The culture of an expansion team is "play well" not "win". Too many players on our team are still satisifed with mediocre performance, as long as the game is close, we're fine. Hey get to 6-10 this year, OK.

We have a few players who HAVE to win, and we need more. Dunta Robinson HAS to win. Andre Johnson HAS to win. David Carr, OTOH, doesn't HAVE to win. He just needs to play well enough to keep his job and have a respectable showing. That's not how to get to a Super Bowl

It's obviously a step in the right direction ridding the team of Walker and Coleman. Probably a few more to go but I won't cite any names.

TexansTrueFan
03-04-2006, 04:03 PM
i love this franchise.........

HomeBred_Texan
03-05-2006, 07:26 PM
why do some of you quote the ENTIRE 1st post?

and you say vincent young isn't smart, hmmmmm.

this franchise will lose a lot of season ticket holding fans looking for a reason to support them by not drafting young. i am not so familiar with the draft bush or i am out group.
I am a season ticket holder and will be there no matter who they draft, but we all know it wont be VY So get over it,,,

GP
03-05-2006, 08:24 PM
I'm not worried about this franchise.

They had dead weight in Dom Capers and basically the entire coaching staff except for Marciano who knows how to coach any group of talent that's placed in front of him. And McNair handled the coaching changes gracefully and tactfully, showing the league that we might not be winning NOW but that we're dedicated to treating our people fairly while they ARE here. That stuff doesn't win us more games last season, but it sure as heck goes a long way in drawing guys like Mike Sherman to this franchise, and it makes us a stronger attraction for top talent. Gotta' give it time guys...

If anything worries me, it's the whining about "drafting the home-town hero" that might take its toll on Mcnair and Casserly and thus leading them to seriously consider it as a very real option. Now that we're getting farther away from the Rose Bowl game, and the sensationalism for Young is fading away as time goes on, I think it's pretty obvious that Young's stock is dropping from being a possible No. 1 to more like a No. 5 or No. 6. :twocents:

If this team comes away with either Bush or trading down and grabbing 'Brick so a team can bump up and get Bush or Young (Jets, cough cough) and thus landing some extra picks, then I'm going to be happy about the direction of our franchise:

1. No Dom Capers and his "run, run, pass to the RB" style of football.
2. Kubiak and some fresh faces on the coaching staff
3. Bush or 'Brick (or Mario Williams or AJ Hawk)
4. More top picks in the first few rounds where talent is deep this year
5. And Houston pro football under the cap while the Titans cut more players

What's not to be happy about right now?

thunderkyss
03-05-2006, 09:35 PM
This is just off season talk, after a 2-14 season........ there's nothing to worry about. We're going to make a mistake in the 2006 draft, in FA, in TC, PreSeason, regular season, hopefully in the play-offs....... but that's the way things go. You can't make everybody happy, and Nobody should try. Vince, Reggie, D'Brick, Mario.... season ticket holders leaving.... whatever. I'm sure there are plenty of folks waiting for tickets now.

My votes for Vince....... I've tried to like David Carr, but I don't for whatever reason. I think Joey would've fit our team better. I think Vince will fit better. I like our backs, I like our recievers...... I like the 3-4, and I like Babin, Peak, Wong, Dunta, even Earl.

But I'm a Houston Texans' fan. One way or the other I'll find a way to enjoy watching them play on Sunday........ hopefully, they'll be begging us to play on Monday night one day. I'd love to watch them on a Saturday, Wildcard week perhaps?? I'd kill to watch them in February...

Kaiser Toro
03-05-2006, 09:44 PM
What's not to be happy about right now?

David Carr is my team's highest paid player. That at this moment is the only thing that makes me unhappy. Hopefully Kubiak will help me get over it.

ClintonPortis26
03-05-2006, 10:06 PM
Casserly is an awfull GM. Just thought id tell you...Look back at all those years when he was with Washington. Yea that bad...

Kaiser Toro
03-05-2006, 10:14 PM
Casserly is an awfull GM. Just thought id tell you...Look back at all those years when he was with Washington. Yea that bad...

We appreciate your promptness with that proclamation.

CajunTexan
03-05-2006, 10:39 PM
David Carr is my team's highest paid player. That at this moment is the only thing that makes me unhappy. Hopefully Kubiak will help me get over it.

K.T.....just curious, but on how many teams do you think the QB is the highest paid player? Whether they "deserve it" or not, many times with the position comes the big "coin".

Kaiser Toro
03-05-2006, 10:52 PM
K.T.....just curious, but on how many teams do you think the QB is the highest paid player? Whether they "deserve it" or not, many times with the position comes the big "coin".

I agree with that, but we had an option a month ago to correct that and we did not. It could very well be a great decision, but historicals don't support that optimism. Kubiak is a step in the right direction to allay that fear.

aj.
03-05-2006, 11:00 PM
... just curious, but on how many teams do you think the QB is the highest paid player?

In 2004, in terms of cap hit, the answer is four. Vick, Favre, Manning, and McNabb.

Kaiser Toro
03-05-2006, 11:01 PM
In 2004 (in terms of cap hit), the answer is four. Vick, Favre, Manning, and McNabb.

I did not think it would be that low. Interesting.

aj.
03-05-2006, 11:05 PM
Contract value - info I don't have readily available at the moment - is a better way to look at it, but the point is that QBs are not always the highest paid players on their teams in many, maybe even most cases, but of course they usually are among the highest.

Wolf
03-05-2006, 11:11 PM
this franchise will lose a lot of season ticket holding fans looking for a reason to support them by not drafting young. i am not so familiar with the draft bush or i am out group.

I imagine for every season ticket holding fan that gives up his tickets in April there are about 5-10 fans that would gladly take the tickets.

only way I see a statement like that halfway work would be if the Rockets lost Yao Ming.. the revenue of rocket's stuff or should I say ming would be missed (in china not houston) but in houston there still would be sell outs and VY doesn't have the fan base as ming

I have no statistics, but I imagine the rocket's sales in jerseys/memorabila over there has to be pretty good.

Yet, I maybe talking out of my piehole

tulexan
03-05-2006, 11:16 PM
VY doesn't have the fan base as ming


you are right... his 6 billion person fan base dwarfs the measly 1.3 billion that yao has.

ericdoesntcare
03-06-2006, 03:32 PM
McNair should have probably gotten rid of Casserly when he let Capers go. I think that would have been the best move to be made.

Historyhorn
03-07-2006, 01:17 PM
Those who are implying that there are lines of people waiting to buy season tickets are a little delusional.

While I still think there is demand for Texans tickets, it certainly is much softer than ever before. Take a look at the secondary market for PSL's and you'll find folks who would be happy just to recoup the initial PSL investment they paid to the team. Note: PSL's worth less than when originally purchased is a bad thing.

The cost for getting on the Texan's ticket waiting list disappeared, and then the list itself disappeared. It has reappeared this year, but rest assured, there won't be people on it who are told to wait until next year for seats.

Finally, they started selling season tickets in PSL's to people without the requirement to purchase a PSL. I'm not sure if the person has the option to renew next year or not. It may be a right of first refusal thing like they do in Seattle, where you can purchase the season tickets and have the option to continue purchasing until someone comes along and is willing to buy the PSL. At that point, you either pony up and buy the PSL yourself, or you forfeit the seats.

If we don't at least look to be turning the corner some next season, how long until there are local black-outs?

I respect those who say the pick should be Bush should be the pick, but disagree. I also respect those who say the pick should be Young but disagree. This franchise needs to win sooner rather than later. They can't afford to wait on Young to be a game changing NFL QB, which I think he will be eventually. They also can't afford to waste a number one pick on a 3rd down back who will get a dozen or so touches per game and who can't or won't run inside. Why spend a number one on a Bryant Westbrook type back.

A trade out of the number one pick is by far the wisest move and will do more to help build the team quickly. There will be suitors for the number one pick this year, unlike the Niners last year. It's the smart pick, but who says this organization has the capacity under Casserly to do the smart thing.

Go Texans Go

Double Barrel
03-07-2006, 01:34 PM
Those who are implying that there are lines of people waiting to buy season tickets are a little delusional.

I agree. A buddy of mine just got on the waiting list late last week, and the customer service agent said he'd definitely be getting tickets for the 2006 season.

Not much "wait" in that list, 'eh?

If we don't at least look to be turning the corner some next season, how long until there are local black-outs?

IIRC, the 2006 season is the last gauranteed sellout year, which Mr. McNair promised 5 years of sellouts as part of buying a new franchise.

So yeah, next season is make or break with regards to market share. If they tank this year, then 2007 will bring in the dreaded blackouts that we experienced way too many times with the Oilers back in the day.

Although I'm not worried because I'm [hopefully] renewing my season tickets for life.

DRAMA
03-07-2006, 01:36 PM
Reggie may only RUN the ball 15-18 times a agame but will also catch 3-6 balls a game as well...PLUS, he can take it to the house with that speed on any given play at any given time. He can and DOES run between the tackles but if you cut back and break outside, why the need to drop a shoulder just to hear people say, "Wow. He can really pound those 2 yarders." If you can run up the middle and be untouched, does that count as between the tackles? If you cut back and run to the left tackle instead of the right, does that count as between the tackles? Or MUST he get 3 yards and fall down so he can be called a pounder and a guy who 'runs between the tackles.

If Reggie was a Westbrook back, he'd be taken in the 4th round. Funny how no experts ever call him a scat back, they all call him the most dangerous threat to come out of college in recent memory.

I don't mind if we trade down if it's a GODFATHER deal only, but to call Bush a little scatback is silly....

........I know...I know...Barry Sanders never won a Superbowl. :brickwall

Kaiser Toro
03-07-2006, 01:41 PM
I am pretty darn critical of the team. I also have been a PSL owner since day one. I have been subject to four losing seasons. I have been subject to black outs in Austin. No matter what happens in the draft and FA it will not matter. I will still come to this board, I will still attend games and I will still wear the colors. I am a fan of this thing we call the Texans.

I suppose the business model that McNair crafted needs more than the demand of one fan such as myself, but hey what does he know as he has this awful team in the top 5 of NFL franchises for revenue. As I have stated before he has solidified the model to satisfy his VC's and now he is focused on the product.

I am in no matter if there is rain, sleet, sun, sacks or turnovers. :texans:

Historyhorn
03-07-2006, 02:04 PM
In watching Bush's games this season on tape, I can almost count the number of times that Bush ran anywhere other than the D gap on the number of digits I've got. Even if plays were designed to hit a B or C gap, he'd cut to D.

Any way you slice it or dice it, his proclivity is the D gap on both sides. My standard for running inside is not how far the yardage is, or taking a hit, or being wide open in the middle....it is what gap did the back run to. Second, what gap was the play designed to go to?

Reggie is a better player than Westbrook, that much is true, but he is the same type of player. He's more dangerous catching the ball and going to multiple sets out of the backfield than as a traditional running back. The scheme there is to put pressure on the opposing team's secondary by forcing them into a matchup that favors you somewhere. If they've got two corners that can cover, then a slot receiver to test the safety. If they've got a safety who can cover, then you look for a TE that can catch to put pressure on the LB. Finally, you've got a back who can catch the ball in space and then take advatage of the mismatches created by spreading the field elsewhere.

The key question is why spend a number one on a back that isn't "complete"? His role will be that of Westbrook for the Eagles. He'll have more speed and take it to the house threat, but that's still what he'll be. A third down back with breakaway speed. That's not value at the number one spot.

Go Texans

HardKnockTexan
03-07-2006, 02:34 PM
Bush has the potential the change the way that runningback is played. If we take Bush and keep DD then I can easily see Bush taking the field at the same time as DD. He can be used as our runningback, slot reciever or #2 reciever at any time. Someone that is this versatile is definentally worth a #1 selection. Now I'm not saying that we should or shouldnt draft Bush, I just wont be disapointed if we do.

In regards to him not hitting the holes that the plays are designed to go to, with us using zone blocking I think this is exactly the kind of back that would thrive in our new system. Zone blocking allows the runningback to improvise and pick where he thinks he should go.

My Top Texans draft board = Bush, Furguson, Williams, Hawk, Young

Historyhorn
03-07-2006, 03:24 PM
Versatility and speed are certainly the attributes that Reggie does have, but I'd take a more complete back any and every time.

With a zone blocking scheme, the back does indeed select the hole, but oftentimes that hole is back through the A, B, or C gaps on the backside. Reggie typically doesn't hit those cuts back through the middle, because that's where the meat-eaters live. He has a tendency to take a loss outside rather than cut back through the middle.

For the first pick in a draft that has the potential to have some franchise type players at several positions, if you take a back with the number one.....he better be a complete one. Not a situational back that shuttles in and out. It's just not good value for the pick.

LaDanian Tomlinson, Edgerrin James, Shaun Alexander, even Cadillac Williams types of guys are ones you spend a number one overral pick on.

Go Texans

TexanBacker93
03-07-2006, 03:47 PM
this franchise will lose a lot of season ticket holding fans looking for a reason to support them by not drafting young. i am not so familiar with the draft bush or i am out group.

Any season ticket holder that gives up their tickets because the team doesn't draft Vince Young is going to hate themselves in 3 years when there is a waiting list and they have to start in the 700s once they do get tickets. There won't be a lack of fans looking to fill those seats. I wonder how many of the people who think some season ticket holders are going to leave actually are season ticket holders. I'd bet it's a small percentage. Someone who has shelled out the PSL money isn't going to be as quick to dump those tickets.