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View Full Version : Ourlads take on Vince Young " If the Raiders don’t take him, he may free fall..."


gtexan02
02-28-2006, 08:57 PM
Al Davis is enamored with Young’s speed and athletic ability. The fact is, Vince Young is a development NFL quarterback prospect that rates as a second or third round selection. A rare athlete that makes plays with his legs. In the NFL you make plays as a QB with your arm. Young hasn’t demonstrated that he can read complex defenses or compete a pass through a small window of opportunity. Will a team invest an early pick and millions of dollars in a developmental quarterback that may not be ready until he is eligible for free agency? A top five athlete should not be confused with a top five position player. If the Raiders don’t take him, he may free fall out of the first round once the total evaluations are tabulated.

heres their full mock: http://www.ourlads.com/2006NFLMockDraft.html

gtexan02
02-28-2006, 09:00 PM
PS: This was pre-combine, results will shift significantly now.

cap1
02-28-2006, 09:00 PM
Al Davis is enamored with Young’s speed and athletic ability. The fact is, Vince Young is a development NFL quarterback prospect that rates as a second or third round selection. A rare athlete that makes plays with his legs. In the NFL you make plays as a QB with your arm. Young hasn’t demonstrated that he can read complex defenses or compete a pass through a small window of opportunity. Will a team invest an early pick and millions of dollars in a developmental quarterback that may not be ready until he is eligible for free agency? A top five athlete should not be confused with a top five position player. If the Raiders don’t take him, he may free fall out of the first round once the total evaluations are tabulated.

heres their full mock: http://www.ourlads.com/2006NFLMockDraft.html


Wow, Be ready for some backlash on this Message Board.

tulexan
02-28-2006, 09:01 PM
That is actually a fair assessment of him. He is a top 5 athlete, but not necessarily a top 5 position player.

Tulip
02-28-2006, 09:07 PM
So exactly which college defenses are considered "complex"?

tulexan
02-28-2006, 09:09 PM
LSU's defense when they won the National Championship was pretty complex.

gtexan02
02-28-2006, 09:11 PM
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the above, but I do think ourlads has been a consistently respectable scouting agency.

awtysst
02-28-2006, 09:12 PM
So exactly which college defenses are considered "complex"?

UGA typically runs a complex D.
I think THE Ohio State was also pretty complex in nature.

sprtsfanatic
02-28-2006, 09:25 PM
UGA typically runs a complex D.
I think THE Ohio State was also pretty complex in nature.


If that is so....didnt VY read and beat that defense with his arm??

Tulip
02-28-2006, 09:38 PM
If that is so....didnt VY read and beat that defense with his arm??

Passing

CMP/ATT/YDS/CMP%/LNG/TD/INT/RAT
18 /29 /270/ 62.1 /63/2 /2 /149.24

Rushing
ATT /YDS /AVG/LNG/TD
20 /76 /3.8 /32/0

Or in a word - yes.

Marcus
02-28-2006, 09:53 PM
Try to compare NFL type defenses with college defenses, and continue to kid yourselves if you think they are anything but day and night.

stevo3883
02-28-2006, 10:00 PM
Try to compare NFL type defenses with college defenses, and continue to kid yourselves if you think they are anything but day and night.


Ohio state had nfl draft picks all throughout their secondary.

their secondary had a probable 1st round cb and 2nd round safety.

their linebackers were amazing. hawk is top 5 caliber, carpernter 1st rounder, schlegel mid rounder.

one of their dlinemen just tied the record for reps on 225 at combine.

not as "night and day" as you make it out to be. their defense was just as talented as ours in the secondary and even more so at linebacker.

Tulip
02-28-2006, 10:21 PM
Try to compare NFL type defenses with college defenses, and continue to kid yourselves if you think they are anything but day and night.

My point was that no college player has ever had to read an NFL defense in a game situation. Young is no more behind-the-8-ball than any other college QB when it comes to "complex defenses". It's just one of those group-think generalizations that's really popular right now.

Dr. Toro
02-28-2006, 10:32 PM
My point was that no college player has ever had to read an NFL defense in a game situation. Young is no more behind-the-8-ball than any other college QB when it comes to "complex defenses". It's just one of those group-think generalizations that's really popular right now.

Jackpot.

Huge
02-28-2006, 10:54 PM
My point was that no college player has ever had to read an NFL defense in a game situation. Young is no more behind-the-8-ball than any other college QB when it comes to "complex defenses". It's just one of those group-think generalizations that's really popular right now.
Anybody that argues against this is going to look pretty stupid doing so.

For the record, I'm okay with Vince dropping. I'm actually hoping for it. Dallas sits at #18.

Hookem Horns
02-28-2006, 11:23 PM
Is ourlads.com affiliated with cracksmokers.com? Do these guy HONESTLY think VY is going to drop out of the 1st round? Does anyone on this board think so?

I would be shocked if he drops out of the top 10. There is NO way he falls below Dallas at 18.

thunderkyss
02-28-2006, 11:28 PM
Al Davis is enamored with Young’s speed and athletic ability. The fact is, Vince Young is a development NFL quarterback prospect that rates as a second or third round selection. A rare athlete that makes plays with his legs. In the NFL you make plays as a QB with your arm. Young hasn’t demonstrated that he can read complex defenses or compete a pass through a small window of opportunity. Will a team invest an early pick and millions of dollars in a developmental quarterback that may not be ready until he is eligible for free agency? A top five athlete should not be confused with a top five position player. If the Raiders don’t take him, he may free fall out of the first round once the total evaluations are tabulated.

heres their full mock: http://www.ourlads.com/2006NFLMockDraft.html

There appears to be a double standard. Not one college player has had to play against an NFL offense, or Defense....

Now we look at Vince's negatives, and say that he isn't a top ten pick, isn't a #1 overall kind of talent... that's just silly. "Young hasn't demonstrated that he can read complex defenses, or compete a pass through a small window of opportunity"....... just out of curiosity, has David Carr??
REggie Bush is the Consensus #1, even though he has none..... I repeat none of the characteristics of any running back taken with the number 1 overall..... in the history of the draft?? He's small, he doesn't run between the tackles, he hasn't shown that he can "carry the load"(#1 overall running backs carry the load)....... and he has to get to the corner. What he saw @ Texas is comparable to the worst defenses he can expect to see in the NFL. Reggie is most dangerous as a slot reciever, so... we want to spend the #1 overall on a slot reciever?? a #3 reciever??

Vince isn't perfect... I wouldn't start him right away, mainly because I think with David Carr, we can have a winning season next year....... but David has got to play at a level he hasn't played at for 16 games. If he can't do it, then I'd be more than willing to admit we are rebuilding, and put Vince in there.
I can understand if someone doesn't think Vince is a top 3 prospect...... but to say he won't go in the top ten???

StarStruck
03-01-2006, 12:46 AM
If the Raiders don’t take him, he may free fall out of the first round once the total evaluations are tabulated.

If VY free falls, I hope that he will land in Dallas.

YodAa
03-01-2006, 01:18 AM
Just to let you guys know how accurate that site is:
-They have Greenway over Hawk
-DeMeco Ryans, an LB thats no bigger than some NFL Safeties, going to the Browns 3-4 D
-TE Vernon Davis falls out of the Top 10 and gets drafted by the Eagles! WTF happened to LJ Smith? And on their explanation they list that RB White is also considered, ok wtf happened to Westbrook?
-They have the Falcons picking WR in the 1st Rd for a 3rd year in a row. Not only do they now know they suck at that but they've also seen that 3 WRs in the 1st won't win you games. Not to mention they've got greater needs on D.
-DeMario Minter in the 1st? OK, at least the know how to spell REACH.
-They say the Pats will make a huge reach and get a 3rd round corner in the 1st over any other LB which is what they really need.
-Mercedes Lewis to the Bengals! This guy is out of the 1st round folks.
-No way DeAngelo last until late 1st round
-No way Kelly Jennings makes it to the 1st round

Its ok when making a mock to throw in one of those unlikely but still possibly could happen, but don't make a mock with 25 of the picks being like that.

The point of making mocks isn't to be creative, its to put down what you truely think will happen, after analyzing team needs and the players available and all other varuables.

whoever brought up that site I'd suggest to stop going to it or you will be totally lost and confused, come late April.

jerek
03-01-2006, 01:21 AM
I don't hail Young as our savior, and I don't think he is necessarily better than Cutler or Leinart, but calling a guy with this much upside a 2nd or 3rd rounder seems kind of suspect to me.

ToroFan
03-01-2006, 01:36 AM
Al Davis is enamored with Young’s speed and athletic ability. The fact is, Vince Young is a development NFL quarterback prospect that rates as a second or third round selection. A rare athlete that makes plays with his legs. In the NFL you make plays as a QB with your arm. Young hasn’t demonstrated that he can read complex defenses or compete a pass through a small window of opportunity. Will a team invest an early pick and millions of dollars in a developmental quarterback that may not be ready until he is eligible for free agency? A top five athlete should not be confused with a top five position player. If the Raiders don’t take him, he may free fall out of the first round once the total evaluations are tabulated.

heres their full mock: http://www.ourlads.com/2006NFLMockDraft.html

I am wondering why there is a bias against Vince Young

A lot of people compare Vince Young and Michael Vick because of their running ability. How come VY is held to a different standard? Vick did not display nearly the accuracy that VY did at the same stage, nor did he seem to show the ability to read defenses.

How about the funky throwing motion? Well Phillip Rivers has a pretty funky throwing motion, why did the draft pundits call him a gamer who finds a way to get the ball into the hands of the receivers, while VY is just a "top athlete". You don't go 30-2 by accident.

How about the criticism of the system? Well if I recall, Alex Smith ran the spread offense at Utah, and beat such powerhouses as Pittsburgh. He definitely demonstrated the ability to read complex defenses in the shotgun offense there and it showed in his play this year...So how come Alex Smith got a free pass and VY does not?

Oh wait it must be that he gained a lot of his yards running the football and that he would not be able to adjust becoming a pocket passer? Yeah it's not like an option Qb from Syracuse can transform himself into a pocket passer and lead his team to the Super Bowl. Oh wait, Donovan McNabb did that....

In the past year, VY has taken down Ohio State, who made Brady Quinn (who ourlads would probably call a pure pocket passer) look mediocre. He also befuddled the likes of Bob Stoops and Pete Carroll (yeah they know nothing about defenses, considering that Stoops is the one that tormented Peyton Manning when he was in college, and Pete Carroll who used to design NFL style defenses and had 1 month to prepare for VY).

And apparently they are huge on Jay Cutler. But when Cutler is not playing the powerhouses known as Richmond and Kentucky, these are his numbers against division I teams over .500.

81-151 (53.6%) 6td's 6 int (12 sacks)

If Kyle Boller had a twin, I think his name is Jay Cutler...Remember the pundits on Kyle Boller...Suppodely great attitude (in the Brett Favre mold), great arm, did not have a lot of talent around him, but was a nfl combine wonder, which means that he will be an NFL superstar...Yeah sorry folks, I am still waiting on that one...

And for those of you who say that VY had more talent, then why does no one mention that VY had a higher passer rating than Matt Leinart, although Leinart had a heisman tropy rb behind him, and another first-round rb by his side in Lendale White. Not to even mention possible first rounders TE Byrd and WR Dwayne Jarrett (next year).

I'm not saying the Texans should draft VY, but the criticism of him is a bit tired..

dirty steve
03-01-2006, 02:01 AM
I am wondering why there is a bias against Vince Young

A lot of people compare Vince Young and Michael Vick because of their running ability. How come VY is held to a different standard? Vick did not display nearly the accuracy that VY did at the same stage, nor did he seem to show the ability to read defenses.



you watch alot of virginia tech football when vick was there? or is this another delusional VY generalization?

Vinny
03-01-2006, 02:17 AM
you watch alot of virginia tech football when vick was there? or is this another delusional VY generalization?Vick was in some really exciting games and lost his title game unlike Vince Young, who managed to take his team where Vick couldn't. Lots of people saw him play.

Huge
03-01-2006, 08:05 AM
Solid posts fellow VY supporters. Anti-Youngs are taking a beating. :D

Almost forgot...Vince has never (http://s88027846.onlinehome.us/Big12CG05-DavidThomas-TD-R2(DivX).avi) demonstrated that he can "compete" a pass through a small window.

Texans_Chick
03-01-2006, 09:27 AM
you watch alot of virginia tech football when vick was there? or is this another delusional VY generalization?


Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs


Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6’0”, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

thunderkyss
03-01-2006, 10:09 AM
You're right, Texans Chick....... it's not even close.

exclude
03-01-2006, 10:27 AM
[QUOTE=ToroFan]
How about the criticism of the system? Well if I recall, Alex Smith ran the spread offense at Utah, and beat such powerhouses as Pittsburgh. He definitely demonstrated the ability to read complex defenses in the shotgun offense there and it showed in his play this year...So how come Alex Smith got a free pass and VY does not?
QUOTE]

Well, I bet if San Fran had to do it all over again, they probably would've picked the guy who played in a pro-style system (Rogers) versus a guy like VY. Rogers is the answer long-term at QB and GB is probably set in the future when Favre retires.

Alex Smith, OTOH who is this year's Alex Smith with Lienart playing the Rogers role, has looked dreadful in his first season and while the questions of his hands and how small they are dominate the SanFran MB, I can't help but think that his development as an NFL player is greatly hindered by the fact that he played in a spread offense.

swtbound07
03-01-2006, 10:33 AM
Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs


Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6’0”, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs


I love it when this lady posts stats......killer. Spot freaking on.

chuckm
03-01-2006, 10:34 AM
I bet if San Fran had to do it all over again, they probably would've picked the guy who played in a pro-style system (Rogers) versus a guy like VY. Rogers is the answer long-term at QB and GB is probably set in the future when Favre retires.

Of course Smith looked terrible .... SF is terrible ..... Did Rogers take more than 10 snaps last season? So Smith played with a horrible team and looked equally bad and Rogers sat on the bench and suddenly Rogers is a better prospect?

ToroFan
03-01-2006, 11:08 AM
[QUOTE=ToroFan]
How about the criticism of the system? Well if I recall, Alex Smith ran the spread offense at Utah, and beat such powerhouses as Pittsburgh. He definitely demonstrated the ability to read complex defenses in the shotgun offense there and it showed in his play this year...So how come Alex Smith got a free pass and VY does not?
QUOTE]

Well, I bet if San Fran had to do it all over again, they probably would've picked the guy who played in a pro-style system (Rogers) versus a guy like VY. Rogers is the answer long-term at QB and GB is probably set in the future when Favre retires.

Alex Smith, OTOH who is this year's Alex Smith with Lienart playing the Rogers role, has looked dreadful in his first season and while the questions of his hands and how small they are dominate the SanFran MB, I can't help but think that his development as an NFL player is greatly hindered by the fact that he played in a spread offense.


My point was Alex Smith was supposed to be the "thinking man's QB" but he did not seem to grasp the SF offense very well this year. He was not nearly as criticized for the system he played in as VY.

I am wondering why Alex Smith was praised for being able to run and pass in that system against inferior competition, while VY gets criticized for succeeding in the same system against top level competition such as Ohio St., USC, and OU...

To address the poster earlier, yes I did watch a lot of Michael Vick's games...It's not like V.Tech was a Div III school that the networks never had on...

exclude
03-01-2006, 12:10 PM
Of course Smith looked terrible .... SF is terrible ..... Did Rogers take more than 10 snaps last season? So Smith played with a horrible team and looked equally bad and Rogers sat on the bench and suddenly Rogers is a better prospect?

My comparison was based on what each did during the preseason games. Limited info I know, but from what I saw Rogers impressed me more in the few highlights I saw of him during preseason, while Smith looked horrible, whether it was preseason and the regular season.

SF was not as bad as you think. Defensively they could hang with anyone, it was only the play at QB and RB that really sunk the ship, so to speak.

I mean Carr was put in the same position in his first year but he didn't stunk it up as badly as Smith.

slamdunc
03-01-2006, 02:33 PM
Yeah with a couple of picks

TreWardTxn
03-01-2006, 02:42 PM
My point was that no college player has ever had to read an NFL defense in a game situation. Young is no more behind-the-8-ball than any other college QB when it comes to "complex defenses". It's just one of those group-think generalizations that's really popular right now.

This may be a matter of semantics in what is meant by read an NFL defense? Undoubtedly, many major college teams run pro-style defenses, many of the coordinators/coaches fluctuate between the NFL and NCAA, Saban, Greg Robinson, Al Groh, Caroll. The #1 difference between the NCAA and NFL is flat out speed. Players are naturally faster, and react faster due to better understanding of the systems they play in. So, IMO; has any college QB had to read an NFL-type/complex D? Against certain teams. Has a college QB ever had to deal with a defense with the ability and knowledge of an NFL team? Seems rather impossible...

But I think the general point must be conceded that NFL D's are (Richie Smith, you listening?) more complex/harder to beat (playbooks just aren't as thick). Likewise, NFL offenses are more complex/harder to stop. So if a player is willing to put in the necessary time to understand what is going on around them (and has the ability operate/beat said systems) does it all cancel out?

(Somebody draw me up an algebraic equation for that last one...)

Vinny
03-01-2006, 02:45 PM
Likewise, NFL offenses are more complex/harder to stop. I assume you didn't catch any of our games last year huh?

TreWardTxn
03-01-2006, 02:48 PM
Yeah, I probly should have qualified that...

tulexan
03-01-2006, 03:02 PM
Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs


Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6’0”, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs


Could you also post the respective recruiting class ranks for each year while both QBs were playing? Because I think you will find that Vince Young's team was in the top 5 every single year while he was there while Michael Vick's team was probably lucky to crack the top 10.

Supporting casts makes a big difference in a QB's performance.

TreWardTxn
03-01-2006, 03:44 PM
Could you also post the respective recruiting class ranks for each year while both QBs were playing? Because I think you will find that Vince Young's team was in the top 5 every single year while he was there while Michael Vick's team was probably lucky to crack the top 10.

Supporting casts makes a big difference in a QB's performance.

That goes without saying, but if it is what makes the difference then why didn't Simms leave UT with any hardware and get top 5 pick buzz at any time? His supporting cast was unreal, especially for the collegiate level.

Virginia Tech had 7 players drafted (3 on offense) the year after he left for the NFL, so its not like he was working with a bunch of scrubs out there

The whole point of posting the stat comparison was to show that Vick and Young are not the same type of player; they weren't in college, and they won't be in the pros.

Dr. Toro
03-01-2006, 04:01 PM
Could you also post the respective recruiting class ranks for each year while both QBs were playing? Because I think you will find that Vince Young's team was in the top 5 every single year while he was there while Michael Vick's team was probably lucky to crack the top 10.

Supporting casts makes a big difference in a QB's performance.

A quick search had Texas at #8 in 2003, #10 in 2004, and #16 in 2005.

I couldn't find 2002, but I imagine they were top 3.

http://interact.cstv.com/recruiting/football.cfm

This was the first result I found, not trying to engineer any results here.
I'd like to see how VT compared.

tulexan
03-01-2006, 04:06 PM
2002 according to Rivals was #1

Dr. Toro
03-01-2006, 06:51 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/draft/2006-03-01-debate-young_x.htm

This is hot off the wire, with some really interesting quotes. Sounds like a lot of personnel people would beg to differ with Ourlads. I don't think he'll be a 2nd or 3rd rounder.

Long-Spurs-Texan
03-01-2006, 07:20 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/draft/2006-03-01-debate-young_x.htm

This is hot off the wire, with some really interesting quotes. Sounds like a lot of personnel people would beg to differ with Ourlads. I don't think he'll be a 2nd or 3rd rounder.

LOL, those NFL people don't know half of what our VY bashing fools here do. :drool:

Huge
03-01-2006, 07:23 PM
Could you also post the respective recruiting class ranks for each year while both QBs were playing? Because I think you will find that Vince Young's team was in the top 5 every single year while he was there while Michael Vick's team was probably lucky to crack the top 10.

Supporting casts makes a big difference in a QB's performance.
So then there's no doubt in your mind that DeAngelo Williams is a better RB than Reggie Bush...right?

Vinny
03-01-2006, 07:28 PM
Interesting comment by Casserly in that link. "Vince Young is in the mix for the first pick," Houston Texans general manager Charley Casserly says. "He's a special talent. He's a heck of an athlete, and he has the arm strength to make all the NFL throws.

"He has tremendous upside. He has unique running ability, and when he scrambles, he has ability to refocus and find a guy downfield. He does that as well as anybody I've ever seen.

edo783
03-01-2006, 09:50 PM
Watch the shinny watch spinning...you must trade up to get VY....you must trade up to get VY. Just Charlie doing his smoke and mirrors thing.