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View Full Version : How make all the fans hate you and win


Ibar_Harry
02-24-2006, 10:58 AM
Its simple. You trade down and then all of the BUSH - YOUNG fans will blow their cookies. Gets rid of the problem through. Actually the club might be forced to do that based on the nonsense on this board and assuming it represents a cross section of Houston fans who attend the games. Some time back I posted it was time for Carr to leave town and I continue to think that is the case. I simply say that because of what's being posted here as well as places like the Chronicle. I think David has been abused and used by the previous coaching staff along with every other player on the ball club. I believe, however, that the hostility he will receive during the regular season will be a real ongoing issue. There already have been a couple of incidences in the stands with his family and I have a feeling it can only get worse. Do we now have coaches who can make a difference - most definitely. However, had VY not come along then I think Carr would have had a chance to show that he is a lot better than people think. Is Carr top top tier talent, probably not, but he is potentially much better than average. As many know I do like Carr and think a lot of him, but I don't believe his future lies in Houston even though Bob inked the contract. I think Bob has made another one of his mistakes of liking someone personally and not facing reality as far as the situation is concerned. That's why he kept Capers far beyond his time. I hope I'm dead wrong about this, but I don't think so. I would add that it is the nature of some of the comments being made on this board that concerns me. I think everyone can read them for themselves and I believe you will come to the same conclusions. Yes, there are a number of people who think well of David, but there is a lot of venom out there as well. I would hate to see David and his family go through hell, simply because people believe in him. David has always been a company man and done what he was told to do. He is simply not the type of personality that will rock the boat. The boat should have been rocked long ago, but no one could because of McNair. That is his right and I understand how he felt. He is looking for a certain kind of person for any position in his organization. He felt, Capers, Carr and many others were the type of person he wanted regardless of what it ment on the field. McNair is a gentleman looking for gentlemen for his organization. Unfortunately not all fans and players are gentlemen or gentlewomen. Have at it...

Texans Pride
02-24-2006, 11:38 AM
. . . I believe, however, that the hostility he will receive during the regular season will be a real ongoing issue. There already have been a couple of incidences in the stands with his family and I have a feeling it can only get worse. ...

Ibar...you say a couple incidences in the stand regarding his family. . . I was only aware of one....What is the other?

P.S. You know Capers is gone now right? You can get rid of the pink soap!

profan
02-24-2006, 01:12 PM
Well, if david has some good games all will be well. He's going to have alot of pressure and if he struggles, the, fans are going to be all over him. He is not going to get a warm reception from everyone. There are alot of people in carrs corner and most of the fans have never been on this message board. The texans fans have been pretty good to carr and the situation would be alot worse in other nfl cities. The Houston fans have been pretty patient. I think the new coaches, along with Dan Reeves feel carr can do the job and that is why he will still be here, not because McNair likes him. If Reeves evaluation did not give carr any support and if Kubiak did not think he could win with carr, then carr would not be here. I still think there is a chance that the texans will take Young.

LBC_Justin
02-24-2006, 01:23 PM
Its simple. You trade down and then all of the BUSH - YOUNG fans will blow their cookies. Gets rid of the problem through. Actually the club might be forced to do that based on the nonsense on this board and assuming it represents a cross section of Houston fans who attend the games. Some time back I posted it was time for Carr to leave town and I continue to think that is the case. 1. I simply say that because of what's being posted here as well as places like the Chronicle. I think David has been abused and used by the previous coaching staff along with every other player on the ball club. I believe, however, that the hostility he will receive during the regular season will be a real ongoing issue. 2. There already have been a couple of incidences in the stands with his family and I have a feeling it can only get worse. Do we now have coaches who can make a difference - most definitely. However, had VY not come along then I think Carr would have had a chance to show that he is a lot better than people think. Is Carr top top tier talent, probably not, but he is potentially much better than average. As many know I do like Carr and think a lot of him, but I don't believe his future lies in Houston even though Bob inked the contract. I think Bob has made another one of his mistakes of liking someone personally and not facing reality as far as the situation is concerned. 3. That's why he kept Capers far beyond his time. I hope I'm dead wrong about this, but I don't think so. I would add that it is the nature of some of the comments being made on this board that concerns me. I think everyone can read them for themselves and I believe you will come to the same conclusions. Yes, there are a number of people who think well of David, but there is a lot of venom out there as well. 4. I would hate to see David and his family go through hell, simply because people believe in him. David has always been a company man and done what he was told to do. He is simply not the type of personality that will rock the boat. The boat should have been rocked long ago, but no one could because of McNair. That is his right and I understand how he felt. He is looking for a certain kind of person for any position in his organization. He felt, Capers, Carr and many others were the type of person he wanted regardless of what it ment on the field. McNair is a gentleman looking for gentlemen for his organization. Unfortunately not all fans and players are gentlemen or gentlewomen. Have at it...

1. John McClain is a huge Vince Young fan. He doesn't like David Carr. There are plenty of people who like Carr but McClain has the loudest voice there.

2. There has only been one incident that I know. It sounds to me like we have some crappy fans and they the fans are the problem and not the player in this case.

3. Kept Capers "far beyond" his time. Maybe that losing season seemed like an eternity but all three seasons before he had the team improving. As soon as the team regressed he was canned the day after the season. What did you want him canned after game five? Most coaches don't get the axe in the middle of the season. Atleast not many quality programs fire their coach in the middle of the season.

As far as Carr goes.....Yes there are a lot of people who believe in him. We as "Fans" should see that as a positive thing. Hey maybe we have a guy with talent who hasn't been give a chance to prove how good he is because he gets hit 2 seconds after he gets the ball.

As of right now, anyone that hopes that David Carr fails next year is not a Texans fan.

sangien
02-24-2006, 01:47 PM
My problem is not with carr but with the front office. Year 1 we did not need a franchise quarterback we needed to build a line on both sides of the ball in year 1 and 2. Then you start looking for a QB, its not glamorous but the rubber meets the road in the trenches. Carr shoulf have never been a Texan, but that is not his fault. He is gun shy and you cal look at the people in the front office for the blame. This year we do not need bush or young, we need still to build the lines but the fans and originization are blinded by the skill positions. We will never be more than mediocre until we build solid Oline and Dline.:brickwall

El Tejano
02-24-2006, 02:00 PM
Carr knows what lies ahead. I for one commend the way he has handled all this VY talk. He knows what the fans think, and he knows what kind of knife he will be under. Any other QB in his situation would ask not to be resigned or would've asked to be traded. Carr wants to see this thing through. I for one got the feeling that this dude is going to be on a mission this year from his press conference when we signed him. I think Kubiak has made it very known to him what he expects out of a QB and Carr was ready to go to work.

TheOgre
02-24-2006, 02:15 PM
No expansion team should ever draft a QB with its 1st selection. It is just a recipe for disaster. Get a foundation piece (O-line or front seven D) with that first selection and let some veteran journeyman QB take his lumps for the first couple of years.

Your O-line IS going to be bad to horrible, so why damage a young QB when you can get one year 2 or 3 and start him year 3?

Double Barrel
02-24-2006, 03:16 PM
No expansion team should ever draft a QB with its 1st selection. It is just a recipe for disaster. Get a foundation piece (O-line or front seven D) with that first selection and let some veteran journeyman QB take his lumps for the first couple of years.

Your O-line IS going to be bad to horrible, so why damage a young QB when you can get one year 2 or 3 and start him year 3?

I agree [again ;)]. I've always wondered about the decision to draft/start a rookie QB for a brand spanking new team with an untested o-line. The only answer that really makes sense to me is from a marketing perspective, the "face of the franchise" and all that jazz. But from a practical x's & o's pov, I just can't see the logic of letting your rookie set the NFL sack record in his first year of his career and of the franchise.

I hope people would rise above the pettiness once the season starts and root on DC irregardless of this off-season's results. But I know that's just wishful thinking, and once people get liquored up and he has a bad pass it'll come out in full force.

It could (and probably will) get ugly....very ugly....unfortunately.

Runner
02-24-2006, 04:32 PM
I hope people would rise above the pettiness once the season starts and root on DC irregardless of this off-season's results. But I know that's just wishful thinking, and once people get liquored up and he has a bad pass it'll come out in full force.

It could (and probably will) get ugly....very ugly....unfortunately.


It's too bad the fans don't hold themselves to the same high standards to which they hold the players.

Koolbrz
02-24-2006, 04:57 PM
Its simple. You trade down and then all of the BUSH - YOUNG fans will blow their cookies. Gets rid of the problem through. Actually the club might be forced to do that based on the nonsense on this board and assuming it represents a cross section of Houston fans who attend the games. Some time back I posted it was time for Carr to leave town and I continue to think that is the case. I simply say that because of what's being posted here as well as places like the Chronicle. I think David has been abused and used by the previous coaching staff along with every other player on the ball club. I believe, however, that the hostility he will receive during the regular season will be a real ongoing issue. There already have been a couple of incidences in the stands with his family and I have a feeling it can only get worse. Do we now have coaches who can make a difference - most definitely. However, had VY not come along then I think Carr would have had a chance to show that he is a lot better than people think. Is Carr top top tier talent, probably not, but he is potentially much better than average. As many know I do like Carr and think a lot of him, but I don't believe his future lies in Houston even though Bob inked the contract. I think Bob has made another one of his mistakes of liking someone personally and not facing reality as far as the situation is concerned. That's why he kept Capers far beyond his time. I hope I'm dead wrong about this, but I don't think so. I would add that it is the nature of some of the comments being made on this board that concerns me. I think everyone can read them for themselves and I believe you will come to the same conclusions. Yes, there are a number of people who think well of David, but there is a lot of venom out there as well. I would hate to see David and his family go through hell, simply because people believe in him. David has always been a company man and done what he was told to do. He is simply not the type of personality that will rock the boat. The boat should have been rocked long ago, but no one could because of McNair. That is his right and I understand how he felt. He is looking for a certain kind of person for any position in his organization. He felt, Capers, Carr and many others were the type of person he wanted regardless of what it ment on the field. McNair is a gentleman looking for gentlemen for his organization. Unfortunately not all fans and players are gentlemen or gentlewomen. Have at it...


Regardless of what everyone is saying about him and how everyone is talkin about VY, DC is taking things like a gentleman. He is a classy guy IMO. Along with the beatings he has endured the last 4 yrs. you would think he would be seeking a trade. Instead, the guy is willing to stick around for another 3yrs. He knows what is ahead of him and is going to come out on a mission to win back all of the fans that have turned on him within the last yr. Texan fans should respect the fact that the new coaches believe in his abilities, bein that they have tons more knowledge, have won a couple of SB's ( Kubiak, Reeves)and have played/coached one of the best QB's to ever play. They must see something in him that they really like. As far as his family being harrased by other fans. I really think that is ToroSheet. Its not the families fault the FO could not surround him with quality L-Men. Hopefully, he will not be walkin into a snake pit. Funny how at the end of 04' begining 05' everyone was talkin about he is going to take us to the playoffs. The whole team has a horrible yr. and now everyone wants to cut ties with the guy. Oh well, he has another 2 yrs to win back the fans that jumped ship. You know, the ones that call themselves True Texan Fans.

nunusguy
02-24-2006, 05:05 PM
I don't believe his future lies in Houston even though Bob inked the contract. I think Bob has made another one of his mistakes of liking someone personally and not facing reality as far as the situation is concerned. That's why he kept Capers far beyond his time.
IMO VYs coming out this year was one of the reasons McNair picked up Carr's option, gives him a very good excuse not to take VY. It wasn't the only reason for sure, but I doubt he wants to go thru the hassle again of having a
#1 overall going to a QB, especailly one who will be such a humongous project
and have such a steep downside. Not that VY doesn't have an upside, he has tremendous potential in the NFL, though I'm unsure at which position he'll
end up playing ?
As far as keeping Capers beyond his time, I don't know what that means unless you'd expect him to cut Capers lose in midseason. I think he handled
the Capers dismissal just right. Afterall, the team was progressing gradually thru its first 3 years, before the roof fell in this past season.

AustinJB
02-24-2006, 05:30 PM
No expansion team should ever draft a QB with its 1st selection. It is just a recipe for disaster. Get a foundation piece (O-line or front seven D) with that first selection and let some veteran journeyman QB take his lumps for the first couple of years.

Your O-line IS going to be bad to horrible, so why damage a young QB when you can get one year 2 or 3 and start him year 3?

I DO agree w/ you...but you seem to be forgetting one thing.

Remember that the Texans DID think they had a great LT in Boselli, so they didn't think they needed to draft one at that time. Of course, we all know how that turned out. While this is an example of putting all of your eggs in one basket, it is nonetheless what happened.

Now, why we haven't drafted better Olinemen since then, I couldn't tell you....except that Casserly and Capers are jackasses.

TexansTrueFan
02-24-2006, 05:34 PM
yeah give carr one solid year and all of those who feel that way will feel really different and talk about how great he is, its funny how fast the tide turns on people.

Big B Texan Fan
02-24-2006, 07:08 PM
As of right now, anyone that hopes that David Carr fails next year is not a Texans fan.
I'm not a Carr fan but I agree with you, if we keep him (which I'm sure we will) then I'll support him, just right now I want him gone.

angeltexus
02-24-2006, 09:15 PM
I'm not a Carr fan but I agree with you, if we keep him (which I'm sure we will) then I'll support him, just right now I want him gone.
I Still wear Carrs Jersey, but the Steeler, first Titan, and Cheif games when he dropped back and fumbled the ball for no apparent reason erases all this "its not his fault" talk. The guy had no pressure and for some reason he looks sloopy. 4 years has been too long and yall people are asking for another 4. I will be in the stands booing AGAIN at his mistakes and at the coaches for not putting in another quarterback when:rolleyes: we need one.

ojthecat
02-24-2006, 11:17 PM
This is a mute point. The fact is Satan himself could QB the team and if they win we will ALL support him. So if the Texans start to win games with Carr as QB we will support him and if we continue to loose then we won't.

:twocents:

Buffi2
02-25-2006, 12:37 AM
This is a mute point. The fact is Satan himself could QB the team and if they win we will ALL support him. So if the Texans start to win games with Carr as QB we will support him and if we continue to loose then we won't.

:twocents:
Exactly. I also think that even if we drafted God's gift to football and he didn't do very well, these true red and blue fans would be booing him and wondering why we didn't keep Carr. It is the nature of the average football fan.

If you are a true fan, you support your team...unless they go 2-14 and then you can grumble - but you still support them. That is the nature of a true football fan.

Ibar_Harry
02-25-2006, 02:23 AM
I'm certainly encouraged more by the thoughful reponses to this post. To me many of you are looking at it the way I do to a certain degree. I have felt that Kubiack and his coaches can do a lot with Carr and the Team as a whole. To me the only question is will the VY - Bush think create such a stir that Carr simply won't have a chance. Most of you have taken as it should be taken and I hope you are representative of the Texans fans. I really like what I have seen and heard from the new coaching staff and I'm very optomistic about what next season could be. The only caviat is the contraversy and whether that becomes a coaching nightmare. As I stated in the initial post it might be wise to trade down and solve a lot of problems including a possible contraversy. That way all the BUSH and VY fans are mad. It will be interesting to see what stragey they persue. I was impressed with D'Brick and some of the other O-line people. This is going to be a tough draft to evaluate and make decisions on. It will be very interesting to see which way the Texans go. You can make a case of each senario. Hopefully they figure out and take the one that gives the Texans the most promise for the future.

LBC_Justin
02-25-2006, 03:14 AM
My problem is not with carr but with the front office. Year 1 we did not need a franchise quarterback we needed to build a line on both sides of the ball in year 1 and 2. Then you start looking for a QB, its not glamorous but the rubber meets the road in the trenches. Carr shoulf have never been a Texan, but that is not his fault. He is gun shy and you cal look at the people in the front office for the blame. This year we do not need bush or young, we need still to build the lines but the fans and originization are blinded by the skill positions. We will never be more than mediocre until we build solid Oline and Dline.:brickwall
Year one David Carr seemed to be the obvious pick. No one even questioned the decision. (In hindsight, I'd take Peppers, hands down.). But Carr was a SICK NFL prospect at the time. Between his game film, his workouts, his stable background, his speed, his strength, his cannon arm, the guy had it all. At the time he was a no brainer. (Many smart NFL minds still think he has it all. A LOT of people outside of Houston are still high on the guy. If VY wasn't coming out this year a lot of people in Houston will still be high on him.)

Lets not forget that we picked up Boseli, who at the time was arguably one of the best LT in the league. We also got a few hot D-line guys, who have never played as well for us as they did with previous teams. So if you go back in time and you look at the information they had at the time, I don't think their decisions were all that bad. We got some good corners, Some good Linebackers, and some good D-line guys. We should have been set on Defense. But their was ZERO chemistry.

I agree getting D'Brick or Super Mario would be a smart choice for us. But you can't take either of those guys with the #1 pick. We would be laughed out of the league. We would need to trade down to 3-6 to grab one of those two guys and to do that someone has to agree to trade with us.

personally I don't care about the first pick as long as we can get O-lineman Eric Winston with our #33 pick.

Napa Auto Parts
02-25-2006, 03:30 AM
Carr was one of the top prospect but if you remember correctly david had a funny delivery and still to this date. i just think it was the wrong pick not only because he played in a weak conference but it was our 1st year david never really had a chance and now sad to say it david is mentally shot and i dont think thats some thing that can be corrected.:stirpot:

sax_49
02-25-2006, 06:33 AM
My take on this whole scenario is the former coaching staff totally blew it. Capers and Company put players in positions where they were doomed to fail. Instead of using the players strengths they tried to force them to adapt to their coaching schemes. I was never high on that coaching staff from the beginning. Carr has certainly made his mistakes, no doubt, but in the one half of the game against Arizona he showed me what he could accomplish. The coaching staff took off the handcuffs. He was allowed to audible how he wanted instead of having to audible from one running play to another running play. When the second half started the coaches took over and they almost lost that game. Kubiak and Company will put this team and players in situations where they will succeed. Carr will be a much better QB with this staff. Sure he will make mistakes, but even the so called great Favre still makes mistakes. Something like 29 interceptions this past year? All QB's and all players are going to make mistakes, but when they are giving their best effort trying to make plays, how can you not support your team?:twocents:

DenverBorn
02-25-2006, 10:34 AM
It's too bad the fans don't hold themselves to the same high standards to which they hold the players.

1. You have absolutely no clue to which standards any of us hold ourselves

2. When David started cashing his checks, he knew there would be pressure to go along with it. I spend a lot of money on tickets and have the right to hold him and everyone else to a high standard.

GP
02-25-2006, 02:44 PM
Players play for money, and David got fat coin a few weeks ago.

Is it because McNair gives "good" people the benfit of the doubt? Probably.

There's something to be said for McNair not axing Capers during the season--He knows a guy like Kubiak would not be interested in the same old type of NFL organization (like Detroit) who so quickly casts dead weight to the sea...after all, a guy like Kubiak isn't going to come to a place, even if it IS Houston, when he thinks he might get axed mid-season himself if things go bad. Funny thing: Players play for money. Coaches coach for the money, but more for pride--Take Sherman, for instance, who stepped down as a once-premiere HC for an assistant job he didn't even care to consider much because of the change of location and his family's potential feelings about the change, but he did it because of the pride issue. He wanted to go to a place where things are ran well and he'll have a chance to at least be coaching somewhere.

Players play for money and coaches coach for pride. And THAT'S why McNair drug his feet on axing Capers...to set up the hiring of Kubiak.

So I don't blame McNair for staying with Capers since the team was winning more games each season under his stewardship. I wanted the axe to fall early this past season, but in retrospect it was probably wisdom by McNair that kept it from happening when I wanted it to. It wasn't as if Capers really deserved to stay thorugh the season, but it at least showed the league and its players and coaches that we have a first-class owner who won't cave to the fans belly-aching and griping.

And so it will go with the draft. McNair is probably doing a 180 right now in terms of how he builds his team. I would suspect that Carr is the last remaining shard of his good will toward "good" people, and I think you'll see McNair avoid the whole "Young is a hometown hero" plea and go for the jugular in the draft by either acquiring Bush at No. 1 or trading down to take an OL. Carr is getting his last shot this coming year. Period.

And I think david knows it, too. But then again...david ain't the sharpest tool in the shed based on his comments to the media this past year.

David is the QB. He ain't running away. McNair ain't trading him. It's either Bush or OL. And I will be happy with either.

Runner
02-25-2006, 11:10 PM
1. You have absolutely no clue to which standards any of us hold ourselves

2. When David started cashing his checks, he knew there would be pressure to go along with it. I spend a lot of money on tickets and have the right to hold him and everyone else to a high standard.




1) As the mods here say "a person defines himself by his posts".

I see illiterate discussion, horrible spelling, spurious arguments, leaps of illogic, attacks on players with no basis but a "feeling" - all demanding perfection from others. That demonstrates the standards many people have for themselves.

2) I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't mean buying a ticket gives a fan the right to dump beer on a player's pregnant wife because he doesn't meet that fan's standards. We were discussing the fans who get "liquored up" and/or behave boorishly. Buying tickets and Texans gear shouldn't give a fan the right to verbally attack players' families or just ruin the experience (with foul language and poor behavior) for parents who try to bring their children to a game. We are trying to have a civilization here! I have no problem with fair criticism of players and holding them accountable for the large amounts of money they are making.

Ibar_Harry
02-27-2006, 02:04 AM
Looks like the Texans are starting to grease the skids for a trade down. Like I said get rid of the contraversy. When everything dies down they might reverse their decision. This will definitely be an interesting year.

Kaiser Toro
02-27-2006, 11:40 AM
What is sad is how DC performed in a contract year (team option). We should only expect worse given he has no incentive other than hope the team around him gets better. However, the guy is a true professional, but that is an overrated characteristic in my opinion as it does not help you in the win column and it does not provide any value to the fan who is going to the games.

We have an average QB signed for the next three years. If I were Kubiak I would exhaust all resources on the Oline and defense. By the time Carr's contract is up we resign him because the Kubiak effect has taken hold or we dump him with an in the trench mentality already in place. Investing anymore money in modding this Carr is not fiscally prudent in my opinion. In the salary cap era defenses win championships while their late round QB's go to Disneyland.

GP
02-27-2006, 01:29 PM
"What did he say last year that was not the truth?" -- Hulk75

------------------------------

You gotta' be kidding me.

Check with HookEm Horns on that one. Something along the lines of "...the next game is not a "must win" but is more of a a "must play well..." during the long losing skid at the first of the 2005 season. That was pretty badly-stated, you gotta' admit. If you're trying to sound smart to the media, just stick to the cliches and don't try to be a philosopher with something like that...it revealed a serious flaw in either his (a) thinking, or (b) how he communicates his thoughts. I would say we need to win, but that's just me...

This just in: Texans do not win, but they DO play well. Hopefully with their long streak of playing "well" they will make it into the playoffs with a season record of 2-14-12....two wins, 14 losses, and 12 "played well."

And his comment in the horrible pre-season Tampa Bay game, the one where he looked like he was throwing a whiffle ball, and he said after the game: "I will just be glad that we're now playing games that are for real..." in regards to the NUCLEAR BOMB of a game in Buffalo that might go down in history as one of the WORST NFL games in history. Yeah, Thanks David for being so grateful for playing a "meaningful game" and really pulling out the win in our first game of the 2005 season.

His strength is NOT in trying to impress anyone of either his thinking or his communication skills. Let's hope he has the ability to prove it's just the latter and not the former this next season. I have faith. But man, his gig is up in a couple of seasons if he can't field more than an 8-8 record at some point.

I have faith. Not much, but it's there. And that's far more than most fans are giving him at this point.

Double Barrel
02-27-2006, 02:49 PM
What is sad is how DC performed in a contract year (team option). We should only expect worse given he has no incentive other than hope the team around him gets better. However, the guy is a true professional, but that is an overrated characteristic in my opinion as it does not help you in the win column and it does not provide any value to the fan who is going to the games.

We have an average QB signed for the next three years. If I were Kubiak I would exhaust all resources on the Oline and defense. By the time Carr's contract is up we resign him because the Kubiak effect has taken hold or we dump him with an in the trench mentality already in place. Investing anymore money in modding this Carr is not fiscally prudent in my opinion. In the salary cap era defenses win championships while their late round QB's go to Disneyland.

Lots of players play great in non-contract years. I don't think it's quite fair to assess any player on that basis alone. The fact that DC had an alright year in 2004, but tanked (statistically) in 2005 should be revealing that maybe he's not just playing for money, but might, in fact, have a desire to actually win games. And I think it's putting too much emphasis on one position when the team is 2-14. He could be Tom Brady but still have failed miserably with the team we had last year. From top to bottom, the 2005 Texans just plain sucked.

Although I agree with you that at this point we have a mediocre QB signed for three years. Hopefully he'll prove us wrong this year with the mediocrity assessment, because obviously the coaching staff must think much higher of him than the common fan.