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Angry Texan!!
02-23-2006, 10:29 PM
im not trying to down reggie bush or anything, but just i don't understand. we're not going to get vince young because they see potential in david carr and they think maybe he'll be good behind a good line so instead they will draft reggie to replace domanick davis who has rushed for 1,000 yards in his first 2 years and 976 this previous year behind a "bad line". why get someone to replace/split time with someone that is already productive even with a weak o-line? i just don't get it :confused:

no offense to the carr lovers out there but i can't really see david carr taking the texans or any franchise to the superbowl.....ever. vince young on the other hand.............. :homer:

TMac48
02-23-2006, 10:51 PM
You can play two good running backs at the same time in this league. You can't really play two quarterbacks. Also, VY's QB style doesn't have a long history of success in the NFL. Now Reggie's style...(see Marshall Faulk, Barry Sanders, etc.)

jjcorvallis
02-23-2006, 11:15 PM
Why can't we trade Dacid Carr?
We need to draft Vince.
Reggie Bush might help us win 6 or 7 games but we won't make playoffs. Our O-line won't get fixed in 1 or 2 seasons and David Carr will obviously be a vegetable. And he will be worthless after 2 or 3 more seasons.

Let's draft Vince!!!!

Mathis13
02-23-2006, 11:26 PM
Why can't we trade Dacid Carr?
We need to draft Vince.
Reggie Bush might help us win 6 or 7 games but we won't make playoffs. Our O-line won't get fixed in 1 or 2 seasons and David Carr will obviously be a vegetable. And he will be worthless after 2 or 3 more seasons.

Let's draft Vince!!!!
No!!! If we trade david carr we're going to kill our cap space. hes got a huge contract. :tv:

Angry Texan!!
02-23-2006, 11:40 PM
You can play two good running backs at the same time in this league. You can't really play two quarterbacks. Also, VY's QB style doesn't have a long history of success in the NFL. Now Reggie's style...(see Marshall Faulk, Barry Sanders, etc.)

why is that??? cause their aren't many mobile qb's with superbowl rings?? because mobile qb's can't throw???? that's crap. are you basing this on mike vick? he's lead the falcons to the nfc champion game before.... and the falcons never really even had a superbowl caliber team built around vick. or how about philly? where were they without mcnabb?

we can still win games without carr. we have won games with tony banks in previous years come on.... all im really trying to say is if we really wanted to add another dimension to our offense i think we should get vy instead of reggie.........

Bubbajwp
02-23-2006, 11:49 PM
My god do you people not realize that there is a difference between run blocking and pass blocking. We have one of the worst pass blocking olines in the history of the nfl while are run blocking is about average. In the modern day nfl 1,000 rushing yards is not that great. DD is between average and above average. DD's biggest probelm is his speed. He cant brake a big run because as soon as he gets past the defenders they catch him from behind.

David Carr is no superstar but neither is DD.

Angry Texan!!
02-23-2006, 11:55 PM
My god do you people not realize that there is a difference between run blocking and pass blocking. We have one of the worst pass blocking olines in the history of the nfl while are run blocking is about average. In the modern day nfl 1,000 rushing yards is not that great. DD is between average and above average. DD's biggest probelm is his speed. He cant brake a big run because as soon as he gets past the defenders they catch him from behind.

David Carr is no superstar but neither is DD.


ummmmmmmmm ok...... so vy's speed wouldn't be an asset to the worse pass blocking o line in the history of the nfl?

Bubbajwp
02-23-2006, 11:58 PM
Is that what I said because im pretty sure its not.

Bubbajwp
02-24-2006, 12:00 AM
My point was DD didnt have a bad line. Our run blocking is actually pretty good and he still barely gets a thousand hards.

Angry Texan!!
02-24-2006, 12:08 AM
My point was DD didnt have a bad line. Our run blocking is actually pretty good and he still barely gets a thousand hards.

eh... DD proved himself by rushing 1188 and recieving 588 in 2004. he can play there is no doubt about that. carr has never wowed me ever since he was drafted. yes i know he never had a line but even in his "good" games he never impressed me.

TMac48
02-24-2006, 12:11 AM
are you basing this on mike vick?
No, I'm basing it on the history of the National Football League.

Angry Texan!!
02-24-2006, 12:13 AM
No, I'm basing it on the history of the National Football League.

steve young maybe? qb's that can run is a new breed... so how can there even really be a history

TMac48
02-24-2006, 12:27 AM
steve young maybe? qb's that can run is a new breed... so how can there even really be a history
If you want to compare QB rushing stats, DC is actually fits more into Steve Young's class than VY. VY would belong in the Michael Vick class and last time I checked, Michael Vick wasn't winning any superbowls, or staying healthy.

David Carr - Avg Rushing Attempts Per Season - 53.75
Steve Young - Avg Rushing Attempts Per Season - 48.1

tulexan
02-24-2006, 12:30 AM
I guess people forget that Carr had 3500 yards passing and 300 yards rushing 2 seasons ago.

Bubbajwp
02-24-2006, 12:33 AM
eh... DD proved himself by rushing 1188 and recieving 588 in 2004. he can play there is no doubt about that. carr has never wowed me ever since he was drafted. yes i know he never had a line but even in his "good" games he never impressed me.
Well David Carr had 3531 passing yards and 299 rushing yards in 2004. DD got a big majority of his recieving yards because Carr didnt have time to through down field so he dumped it to DD. Also could you please tell me when DD has wowed you and just to let you know DD was 11th in the league in rushing yards in 2004. David Carr was 12th in the league in passing yards. Im not trying to convince you that DC is a superstar im trying to show you that DD isnt one.

Bubbajwp
02-24-2006, 12:34 AM
I guess people forget that Carr had 3500 yards passing and 300 yards rushing 2 seasons ago.
Woops I guess you beat me to it.

thunderkyss
02-24-2006, 01:28 AM
My point was DD didnt have a bad line. Our run blocking is actually pretty good and he still barely gets a thousand hards.


I'm getting so sick and tired of this crap.

When has any team ever had an O-line that finised 16th in rushing, and dead llast in pass protection?? How can you be pretty good at run blocking, but totally suck at pass blocking?? I can understand being pretty good at runblocking, and so-so at pass blocking(but so-so will not get you 68 sacks) I can understand be fair pass blocking, and fair at run blocking(still won't get you 68 sacks). Now if they are fair to poor in both pass & run blocking, then that definitely shows you DD is better than average.

Now let's look at PittsBurgh's O-Line, Philly's, and Atlanta's. Of course they don't suck. but they're not that good. Evidence of that, is that their QBs leave the pocket often. Yeah, maybe the recievers just aren't getting open. Maybe teams like to blitz against them. Point is, you don't hear to much complaining about how their O Line needs a high first round draft pick, a quality FA, and a couple of years to gel. Why?? because they're quarterback get's the job done. People forget about the line breaking down, when plays are made, completions down the field, or first downs to keep drives alive.
Now, on a couple of those teams, the QB makes plays with his arm. Get's the team involved..... make big plays down the field.

We like to think of David Carr as the next Marino, or a poor man's Peyton, but in actuallity, he looks like a poor man's Vick. Outside the pocket, he's only good for running out of bounds.... if he get's the first, fine, if not..... oh well, David doesn't care. he'll just blame the O-line.

tulexan
02-24-2006, 01:39 AM
It's pretty simple, our line can block for 2 seconds. That is about all you need to get through the LOS. Anymore, sack time.

thunderkyss
02-24-2006, 10:50 AM
I understand the difference between pass blocking, and run blocking. If they are this poor at pass blocking, their run blocking can not be much better. Unless they just have it in for Carr.

So I'm left to believe, either the O-Line hates Carr, or DD is special. one or the other. If they don't hate Carr, and 2 seconds is the best they can do(what are people like that doing in the NFL...... and starting mind you), then the wholes they are making for DD can't be too big. Watch some tape, old games you've recorded, and see who is hitting DD. If any DLinemen touches DD, then our Olinemen ain't doing their job. The whole idea behind run blocking, is to keep the big guys off your little guy(the halfback). If they keep hitting him, it's going to be hard to get him through a whole season, which is the problem we have.

jerek
02-24-2006, 11:17 AM
I'm getting so sick and tired of this crap.

When has any team ever had an O-line that finised 16th in rushing, and dead llast in pass protection?? How can you be pretty good at run blocking, but totally suck at pass blocking?? I can understand being pretty good at runblocking, and so-so at pass blocking(but so-so will not get you 68 sacks) I can understand be fair pass blocking, and fair at run blocking(still won't get you 68 sacks). Now if they are fair to poor in both pass & run blocking, then that definitely shows you DD is better than average.

Now let's look at PittsBurgh's O-Line, Philly's, and Atlanta's. Of course they don't suck. but they're not that good. Evidence of that, is that their QBs leave the pocket often. Yeah, maybe the recievers just aren't getting open. Maybe teams like to blitz against them. Point is, you don't hear to much complaining about how their O Line needs a high first round draft pick, a quality FA, and a couple of years to gel. Why?? because they're quarterback get's the job done. People forget about the line breaking down, when plays are made, completions down the field, or first downs to keep drives alive.
Now, on a couple of those teams, the QB makes plays with his arm. Get's the team involved..... make big plays down the field.

We like to think of David Carr as the next Marino, or a poor man's Peyton, but in actuallity, he looks like a poor man's Vick. Outside the pocket, he's only good for running out of bounds.... if he get's the first, fine, if not..... oh well, David doesn't care. he'll just blame the O-line.

That's right, you know David Carr. Wait, you don't? You must know his teammates then. Still no? His coaches? How about the janitor?

Who does David Carr "blame" again?

That you just said Pittsburgh's O-line isn't good ... do you watch football? I wonder if Vick leaving the pocket has anything to do with the guy being a no-talent passer stuck in a scatback's body? McNabb can't scramble for **** either, clearly he leaves the pocket because Philly's two former Pro Bowl tackles just suck.

So. Throw a ***** fit about people claiming the line can't pass block, and then back it up with 100% baseless talk about David Carr "blaming" everyone else for "his" problems beside himself. Check.

Throw in loosely correlative but unrelated conjecture regarding scrambling QBs and their offensive lines. Check.

Wild trade rumor originating from some thirteen year old Madden play living in Sierra Leone, while giving not so subtle nod to Vince Young as the second coming of the Messiah. Hm, not here. Did you forget something?

Damn, the Vince Young crowd is really reaching these days.

Edit: I understand dogging on Carr, to a point. I like the guy, but he still hasn't lived up to his potential. Viewing game tape, a lot of what I see leads me to believe that the Texans have not given this quarterback - or any quarterback - the tools to succeed. Honestly tell me that you believe our pass blocking has been anything short of abysmal. Tell me that, and you are simply deluding yourself. DC has work to do, he has ground to cover before he is a great or even good quarterback, and I believe Kubiak is the man that is going to work with him and get him there. But you are reaching and it shows when you talk about Carr "blaming" people for the team's lack of success. It makes you look like you have a serious, increasingly blind agenda: which, in view of your post history, I guess you do. I would love to see the VY/DC/RB talk stay focused on fact or on actual knowledge of truth. Wouldn't you?

Xman
02-24-2006, 12:02 PM
That's right, you know David Carr. Wait, you don't? You must know his teammates then. Still no? His coaches? How about the janitor?

Who does David Carr "blame" again?

That you just said Pittsburgh's O-line isn't good ... do you watch football? I wonder if Vick leaving the pocket has anything to do with the guy being a no-talent passer stuck in a scatback's body? McNabb can't scramble for **** either, clearly he leaves the pocket because Philly's two former Pro Bowl tackles just suck.

So. Throw a ***** fit about people claiming the line can't pass block, and then back it up with 100% baseless talk about David Carr "blaming" everyone else for "his" problems beside himself. Check.

Throw in loosely correlative but unrelated conjecture regarding scrambling QBs and their offensive lines. Check.

Wild trade rumor originating from some thirteen year old Madden play living in Sierra Leone, while giving not so subtle nod to Vince Young as the second coming of the Messiah. Hm, not here. Did you forget something?

Damn, the Vince Young crowd is really reaching these days.

Edit: I understand dogging on Carr, to a point. I like the guy, but he still hasn't lived up to his potential. Viewing game tape, a lot of what I see leads me to believe that the Texans have not given this quarterback - or any quarterback - the tools to succeed. Honestly tell me that you believe our pass blocking has been anything short of abysmal. Tell me that, and you are simply deluding yourself. DC has work to do, he has ground to cover before he is a great or even good quarterback, and I believe Kubiak is the man that is going to work with him and get him there. But you are reaching and it shows when you talk about Carr "blaming" people for the team's lack of success. It makes you look like you have a serious, increasingly blind agenda: which, in view of your post history, I guess you do. I would love to see the VY/DC/RB talk stay focused on fact or on actual knowledge of truth. Wouldn't you?


I agree. I will go even further.
First - everyone forgets that Leinert actually threw for more yardage than VY in the Rose Bowl. Looking at strictly passing stats - VY is not a top 10 pick.
I think the odds are that VY fails. He might never be a starter. Why? Because he can't read and throw quickly. In fact, his running and scrambling ability has probably limited his need to improve his ability to make quick reads. Whenever his first read wasn't open, he could scramble and buy time (anyone remember the commentators discussing that was when he had most of his long passes?). In the NFL, I doubt he will be able to do that as much.
I do have to admit that there is a small chance that he becomes something never before seen in the modern NFL, a qb that can average 90 yards rushing a game and/or a qb that is such a good scrambler that he gets 10-12 seconds to throw. But I seriously doubt it. If this guy had gone to Michigan (really any school except UT), then this wouldn't even be an issue.

2005 - 285-182- 10, 2769 26 tds
2004 - 250-148-11, 1849, 12 tds
2003 - 84/143, 1,155 yards, 6 td, 7 int

thunderkyss
02-24-2006, 12:26 PM
Edit: I understand dogging on Carr, to a point. I like the guy, but he still hasn't lived up to his potential. Viewing game tape, a lot of what I see leads me to believe that the Texans have not given this quarterback - or any quarterback - the tools to succeed. Honestly tell me that you believe our pass blocking has been anything short of abysmal. Tell me that, and you are simply deluding yourself. DC has work to do, he has ground to cover before he is a great or even good quarterback, and I believe Kubiak is the man that is going to work with him and get him there. But you are reaching and it shows when you talk about Carr "blaming" people for the team's lack of success. It makes you look like you have a serious, increasingly blind agenda: which, in view of your post history, I guess you do. I would love to see the VY/DC/RB talk stay focused on fact or on actual knowledge of truth. Wouldn't you?

Ouch, I've been lambasted.......

First I didn't say that Carr is blaming anyone....... i said he could....

Secondly, you agree Carr needs work...... I'm just not as confident as you that he can be fixed...... after all, he wouldn't be the first #1 overall QB that was.

Thirdly my opinion of Carr isn't 100% bassed on our sack record....

I think Vince is going to be a great QB...... I'm not too sure David will be.... there have been many people who've questioned picking David Carr from the beggining. why is it odd to you, that there are people questioning him now?? Why is it odd, that there are more now that we see a Bonafide alternative that wants to play here??

thunderkyss
02-24-2006, 12:37 PM
I agree. I will go even further.
First - everyone forgets that Leinert actually threw for more yardage than VY in the Rose Bowl. Looking at strictly passing stats - VY is not a top 10 pick.
I think the odds are that VY fails.
After those last two statements, you do understand you've lost any credibility you thought you may have had right?? We don't need Vince, or David will win us a Superbowl...... are understandable arguments.... Bust?? not a top 10??

He might never be a starter. Why? Because he can't read and throw quickly. In fact, his running and scrambling ability has probably limited his need to improve his ability to make quick reads. Yep, you've managed to lose even more credibility.... you're in the negative numbers her fella.Everyone knows his passing improved greatly in just one year....... what 1300yards one year.... twice as much the next year... effieciency leader in the regular season...... YPA better than Leinart... etc.. etc..
And if the ability to read coverages quickly is really all that necessary, then you should be itching to replace Carr. We know he can't do it.
Whenever his first read wasn't open, he could scramble and buy time (anyone remember the commentators discussing that was when he had most of his long passes?). In the NFL, I doubt he will be able to do that as much. And you continue to drive into the negative... he'll make four reads before he gets to the line of scrimmage on a busted play.

I do have to admit that there is a small chance that he becomes something never before seen in the modern NFL, a qb that can average 90 yards rushing a game and/or a qb that is such a good scrambler that he gets 10-12 seconds to throw. But I seriously doubt it. If this guy had gone to Michigan (really any school except UT), then this wouldn't even be an issue. But he did go to UT........ sounds like fate to me....... don't want to upset the football gods y'know...


2005 - 285-182- 10, 2769 26 tds
2004 - 250-148-11, 1849, 12 tds
2003 - 84/143, 1,155 yards, 6 td, 7 int

This is from another thread...... just felt like throwing it in here...


Opinions are fine and dandy, but let's talk about numbers. I'm assuming superior to not just mean better, but far better.

Now, when I look at Matt Lienart: 3815yrds... and then look at Vince Young: 3036 yrds......... One could argue that is far better.
When looking at Matt Lienart: 65.7% comp percentage, then Vince Young: 65.2% completion percentage, I doubt many would say that is far better. Most will probably say they are darn near identicle(sp).
So, if you were to assume Vince completed 65.2% of the other 109 attempts that Matt had(Vince blew teams out, and therefore sat most of the 3rd & 4th quarters) @ Vince's avg 9.3ypa(Matt's is 8.85ypa by the way, definitely not superior) you'd get (109*0.625*9.3=)616 yards, bringing Vince to 3652 yards. Which 3815 isn't really far better than. Then, if you were to assume YPA means yards per attempt(which, I really don't know what it means) Vince would have (109*9.3+3036=)4049yrds passing....(pretty David Carr like)

Then you've got TD/Int..... Matt threw 2 more than TDs, and 2 less ints. Better, but not far better. We already covered Vince's better YPA, but Vince also has a better QB rating...... 163.95 vs 157.74(would that make vince the highest rated QB in the draft?? :sarcasm:)

Now, consider UT....... is not known for their QB production. Chris Simms didn't really light it up when he was at UT. I definitely credit the work he must have put in with his dad for his performance now, more than I give Mack Brown. UT doesn't build around QBs. They just don't. UT Olineman aren't generally drafted because of their superior(there's that word again) pass blocking techniques. UT builds teams to run. And they do that very well.

So personally, if every one says UT dumbed down their offense for Vince, because of Vince. I don't take it as a knock against Vince. I think it has more to do with the way the team was built, which is not to the advantage of the QB.

Rewsky
02-24-2006, 01:06 PM
First - everyone forgets that Leinert actually threw for more yardage than VY in the Rose Bowl. Looking at strictly passing stats - VY is not a top 10 pick.


If you're looking strictly at passing stats, then Timmy Chang should have been the first QB selected last year. What's your point?


I think the odds are that VY fails. He might never be a starter. Why? Because he can't read and throw quickly. In fact, his running and scrambling ability has probably limited his need to improve his ability to make quick reads. Whenever his first read wasn't open, he could scramble and buy time (anyone remember the commentators discussing that was when he had most of his long passes?). In the NFL, I doubt he will be able to do that as much.


What exactly are you basing that on? I assume you watched the Rose Bowl. On the last drive, Pete Carrol (hailed by many as one of the better defensive gurus in college FB) was throwing every kind of exotic blitz at VY. Each time he found the open man. Hell, on his winning TD play, VY said he went through 3 of his progressions before taking off and running.

If this guy had gone to Michigan (really any school except UT), then this wouldn't even be an issue.

Well, because he went to Texas, a lot of people down here got to see 100% of his games and base their opinions on that. Assuming he went to Michigan, many people would only see a couple of his games. There would still be VY homers, but they would probably be shouted down by the majority, saying we can't draft a player based on his one game at the Rose Bowl.


Just my opinion though:twocents:

DominickDavisFan76
02-24-2006, 03:00 PM
I dont understand the people that are bagging on David Carr, if we had not taking david carr we would be stuck with........Joey Harrington!!!
Maybe the worst QB bust(besides ryan leaf) I have ever seen. Joey harrington last year, had more interceptions then TDs with Roy Williams, and charles rogers at receiver, plus his line wasnt as bad as ours.

David Carr on the other hand, Has never thrown more INTs then TDs except for his Rookie year.

So give DC a better line and more time in the pocket= Playoffs:redtowel:

Plus we are going to get a better line and a better team next year, I cant wait for the draft:drool:

threetoedpete
02-24-2006, 04:04 PM
ummmmmmmmm ok...... so vy's speed wouldn't be an asset to the worse pass blocking o line in the history of the nfl?

The spread offense is not a good offense in the NFL. The Oilers tried it WITH two HOFER gaurds and a HOFER QB and never got a sniff. You can't run the spread and go to the Super Bowl. I don't know what is so hard about that fact that you cannot understand. What I saw of Palamalilua in the Pittsburg game, Hudini wouldn't of gotten away. Yes Dorthy, even superman is going to get killed behind this o-line. ALL scrambleing QBs coming into the NFL quickly learn that tucking the ball and running is not the best option. Most of them stop doing it after a couple of seasons. And I bet most of them still have trouble getting their pants on in the mornings, even today. Go ask Warren Moon.

Dr. Toro
02-24-2006, 04:22 PM
I dont understand the people that are bagging on David Carr, if we had not taking david carr we would be stuck with........Joey Harrington!!!
Maybe the worst QB bust(besides ryan leaf) I have ever seen. Joey harrington last year, had more interceptions then TDs with Roy Williams, and charles rogers at receiver, plus his line wasnt as bad as ours.

David Carr on the other hand, Has never thrown more INTs then TDs except for his Rookie year.


Funny. Harrington isn't any good, but his career TD/INT ratio is 60/62, which is better than Carr at 48/53. Harrington's line isn't good, and he has had one weapon (Roy Williams) just like Carr (Andre Johnson). Rogers has barely sniffed the field and had off the field problems. Kevin Jones hasn't been any better than DD, and Mike Williams had trouble cracking the lineup.

infantrycak
02-24-2006, 04:28 PM
Funny. Harrington isn't any good, but his career TD/INT ratio is 60/62, which is better than Carr at 48/53. Harrington's line isn't good, and he has had one weapon (Roy Williams) just like Carr (Andre Johnson). Rogers has barely sniffed the field and had off the field problems. Kevin Jones hasn't been any better than DD, and Mike Williams had trouble cracking the lineup.

Detroit has 7 1st rounders on O--4 of whom are top 10 picks, 2 on the OL--they also had an offensive guru as head coach. Carr is one of 2 1st rounders on O with a defensive minded coach. Detroit hasn't gotten full value from their picks, but they have put a ton more attention into trying to make things work for Harrington.

keyfro
02-24-2006, 04:40 PM
look you can throw all the stats you want...you can make cases for young, bush, hawk, ferguson, and mario williams to be our top pick...but what you have to look at is our situation...when you are drafting this high in the first round it is because you team has some issues...and because you have some serious needs...despite what ya'll think runningback and quarterback is not one of them...we have the depth at runningback to fit kubiak's system and we have a quarterback who has never been given a chance to succeed...what we need is better lineman, a starting TE, new DE's for the new defense, a true middle LB, and number 2 reciever and corner and better depth at both safty positions

i believe the texans will trade down and pick up either mario williams or ferguson in the first round...or we'll simply take ferguson number one overall if there isn't a good trade offer

Dr. Toro
02-24-2006, 04:48 PM
Detroit has 7 1st rounders on O--4 of whom are top 10 picks, 2 on the OL--they also had an offensive guru as head coach. Carr is one of 2 1st rounders on O with a defensive minded coach. Detroit hasn't gotten full value from their picks, but they have put a ton more attention into trying to make things work for Harrington.

Understood. They have made the effort that we haven't, but they have nothing to show for it, and that's not really Harrington's fault. Kevin Jones stunk this year, Charles Rogers and Mike Williams have been invisible. Sure, his line is a little better, but it isn't good. Harrington has never utilized those weapons because they haven't been on the field together. Between Roy Williams' ankles, Jones' injuries, Rogers collarbone and off the field stuff, and Mike Williams' rust, Joey might have been better off with AJ, Bradford, Gaffney, and DD.

Don't confuse me with someone that thinks Harrington is a good QB... he stinks. But the situation around him hasn't been markedly better than Carr's. I didn't make the initial comparison, and it's not a favorable one for DC. You don't say "Carr is good because Harrington is a bust and we could have ended up with him." Yes, Detroit has attempted to surround him with weapons, but they have failed to effectively do so, just like us.

thunderkyss
02-24-2006, 06:07 PM
Detroit has 7 1st rounders on O--4 of whom are top 10 picks, 2 on the OL--they also had an offensive guru as head coach. Carr is one of 2 1st rounders on O with a defensive minded coach. Detroit hasn't gotten full value from their picks, but they have put a ton more attention into trying to make things work for Harrington.


So what you're saying is that we aren't really garunteeing ourselves anything if we draft more offensive players in the first round??

Xman
02-24-2006, 06:17 PM
I stick with my opinion.

In the NFL, VY will have to throw in under 5.5 seconds (less if we drafted him). At UT, he had all day. True, a large part of that was due to his running ability - but I don't think that will transfer to the NFL(I am sure there will be an occasional wild scramble, but not for the most part). So, he will have to improve. I am not saying he can't do it - I am just saying he is not there yet - so there is a chance he never will be.

As far as the guy who threw in the Chang comment. Obviously QBs can be products of a system. And, they get the benefit of playing with superior talent or inferior opponents (and don't tell me UT had a hard schedule becuase it was softer than usual this year).

As far as the Rose Bowl comparison: Leinert threw for a hundred more yards against a studly UT defense. VY played against a mediocre USC defense. Big difference.

As far as saying I lose credibility because I think he could fail. You lose more credibility by saying he probably will succeed. QBs are a crapshoot. Non-standard QBs are even riskier. The odds are in my favor.

That being said, I like VY and will root for him. But, I think drafting him would be a mistake. First, its essentially a rebuild at that point. Second, every scout says he will need at least three years - so we will be rebuilding for another 4 years before we know if he is the guy - thats a lot of losing.

Maddict5
02-24-2006, 06:19 PM
After those last two statements, you do understand you've lost any credibility you thought you may have had right?? We don't need Vince, or David will win us a Superbowl...... are understandable arguments.... Bust?? not a top 10??

Yep, you've managed to lose even more credibility.... you're in the negative numbers her fella.Everyone knows his passing improved greatly in just one year....... what 1300yards one year.... twice as much the next year... effieciency leader in the regular season...... YPA better than Leinart... etc.. etc..
And if the ability to read coverages quickly is really all that necessary, then you should be itching to replace Carr. We know he can't do it.
And you continue to drive into the negative... he'll make four reads before he gets to the line of scrimmage on a busted play.
But he did go to UT........ sounds like fate to me....... don't want to upset the football gods y'know...



This is from another thread...... just felt like throwing it in here...

ok you cant say anything about credibility after saying the steelers and eagles o-lines suck. im not getting into another VY carr debate but i will answer your question about blocking. the texans o-line are generally big awkward guys so in passing plays they get beat quickly and regularly by de moves cos they are awkward(footwork etc). however they are big guys so in running plays they're able to overpower their assignments. pass blocking and run blocking are 2 entirely different things

thunderkyss
02-24-2006, 06:58 PM
ok you cant say anything about credibility after saying the steelers and eagles o-lines suck. im not getting into another VY carr debate but i will answer your question about blocking. the texans o-line are generally big awkward guys so in passing plays they get beat quickly and regularly by de moves cos they are awkward(footwork etc). however they are big guys so in running plays they're able to overpower their assignments. pass blocking and run blocking are 2 entirely different things

well, I didn't say they sucked. I said they aren't that good. protection breaks down on those two team, and it breaks down often. As far as I know, the only stat I'm hearing to prove our OLine sucks is the sack total... If you had Donovan, or Rothlisberger, there is good reason to believe we wouldn't have had as many sacks.

Before I accept your excuse for the OLine, can you find me another example, where the league leader in sacks allowed, had a running game better than half the league, in the same year...

big homey
02-24-2006, 07:07 PM
well, I didn't say they sucked. I said they aren't that good. protection breaks down on those two team, and it breaks down often. As far as I know, the only stat I'm hearing to prove our OLine sucks is the sack total... If you had Donovan, or Rothlisberger, there is good reason to believe we wouldn't have had as many sacks.

Before I accept your excuse for the OLine, can you find me another example, where the league leader in sacks allowed, had a running game better than half the league, in the same year...
I definitely disagree with you that the Steelers line is "not that good". They're one of the league's best. The Eagle's line does break down form time to time, but in juxtaposition with the Texans, there is no comparison. It's time to face it - our line is HORRIBLE at pass pro. Whether David has super-escapability or not isn't the issue here. There is no reason for our o-line to be this bad.

tex2theend
02-24-2006, 07:44 PM
The only thing good about the Texans getting a running quarterback would be that he could prolong the inevitable. "Without a OL, your quarterback will get killed." It doesn't matter how well you can run as a QB in the NFL. Unlike college, ALL LB's, DE's, and Safeties in the NFL are smart, take good angles and are FAST.

infantrycak
02-24-2006, 07:45 PM
The Eagles OL also breaks down in part because they have zero conventional running game. Folks can tee off on them virtually every play.

tex2theend
02-24-2006, 07:55 PM
At this point it doesn't really matter who we draft. VY and RB are both going to be good, maybe great, players. No on knows. Without a complete TEAM you will not do anything. The Ravens winning a SB with Trent Dilfer shows that you need a TEAM to win and not a superstar at qb. The steelers have a second year QB and win a SB, but have a complete TEAM. Either one of these guys will be a good choice but we will be arguing for a long time unless the front office starts manuvering better in FA and after the 1st round of the NFL Draft..

Bubbajwp
02-25-2006, 01:32 AM
well, I didn't say they sucked. I said they aren't that good. protection breaks down on those two team, and it breaks down often. As far as I know, the only stat I'm hearing to prove our OLine sucks is the sack total... If you had Donovan, or Rothlisberger, there is good reason to believe we wouldn't have had as many sacks.

Before I accept your excuse for the OLine, can you find me another example, where the league leader in sacks allowed, had a running game better than half the league, in the same year...
2004
M Vick Rushing yards 902 Sacks 46.0 second
2005
M Vick Rushing Yards 597 Sacks 33 fourth
2004
Daunte Culpepper Rushing Yards 406 Sacks 46 second

stonedtexansfan
02-25-2006, 02:03 AM
David Carr has not been the problem with the offense, the Oline has been a big problem, but the Offensive Co. has been the biggest problem. Every first and second down the would run against 8 men in the box. So its 3rd and 7 and the DEs and LBs pin their ears back and get to Carr before he makes his 3rd step in his drop. If we were to draft a QB to win right away, Leinart is the smart choice. DD has proven he is a above average back, with VM backin him up. With the new offense, id like to see how these players work out. D'Brick should be our choice, with or without trading down.

thunderkyss
02-25-2006, 10:47 AM
2004
M Vick Rushing yards 902 Sacks 46.0 second
2005
M Vick Rushing Yards 597 Sacks 33 fourth
2004
Daunte Culpepper Rushing Yards 406 Sacks 46 second

IN 2004, The Atlanta Falcons didn't lead the league in sacks... they were close, at 50, but they led the league in rushing........ those numbers are kinda misleading, because if I'm not mistaken, Vick was their leading rusher...... if he was or not, at 902 yards, you can see that isn't normal....

In 2004, the Vikings didn't lead the league in Sacks....... Once again, they got more offense from the QB, than what he could provide with his arm alone. Minnesota's was 18th in the league, in 2004, not better than half.

In 2004, Chicago led the league in sacks..... 66..... they were 25th in rushing.... looks like a bad offensive line...... equally bad at run blocking, and pass blocking.

In 2004, San Francisco was second in sacks......52.... they were 31st in the league in rushing...

In 2005, the Texans led the league in sacks........ odd thing is, they were actually 15 in rushing........

in 2005, Minnesota was second in sacks, but they were only 27th in rushing...... looks pretty bad on both sides of the ball.

in 2005, the jets gave up the third most sacks.. they were 31st in the league in rushing....

I can understand bad....... But if you're pretty good at one part of your job, you can only be sooo bad at the other.... if you're a pro bowl pass blocker, you're probably going to be so-so at run blocking.......... not totally suck........ not at the nfl level. If you're a so-so run blocker, and a piss-poor pass blocker, then what are you doing in the NFL??? surely there is someone better out there better who is at least so-so both ways...

Bubbajwp
02-25-2006, 11:55 AM
IN 2004, The Atlanta Falcons didn't lead the league in sacks... they were close, at 50, but they led the league in rushing........ those numbers are kinda misleading, because if I'm not mistaken, Vick was their leading rusher...... if he was or not, at 902 yards, you can see that isn't normal....

In 2004, the Vikings didn't lead the league in Sacks....... Once again, they got more offense from the QB, than what he could provide with his arm alone. Minnesota's was 18th in the league, in 2004, not better than half.

In 2004, Chicago led the league in sacks..... 66..... they were 25th in rushing.... looks like a bad offensive line...... equally bad at run blocking, and pass blocking.

In 2004, San Francisco was second in sacks......52.... they were 31st in the league in rushing...

In 2005, the Texans led the league in sacks........ odd thing is, they were actually 15 in rushing........

in 2005, Minnesota was second in sacks, but they were only 27th in rushing...... looks pretty bad on both sides of the ball.

in 2005, the jets gave up the third most sacks.. they were 31st in the league in rushing....

I can understand bad....... But if you're pretty good at one part of your job, you can only be sooo bad at the other.... if you're a pro bowl pass blocker, you're probably going to be so-so at run blocking.......... not totally suck........ not at the nfl level. If you're a so-so run blocker, and a piss-poor pass blocker, then what are you doing in the NFL??? surely there is someone better out there better who is at least so-so both ways...
I thought you were talking about the QBs rushing yards and sacks.

cuppacoffee
02-25-2006, 12:07 PM
I understand the difference between pass blocking, and run blocking. ....................... If they keep hitting him, it's going to be hard to get him through a whole season, which is the problem we have.

Couldn't the same thing be said about a running QB? VY to be more precise.:brickwall

whiskeyrbl
02-25-2006, 12:15 PM
The pass protection sucks because of our line and RB's inability to pick up the blitz.Now whether that is bad reads or bad blocking skills is anyones guess.

CITY CAT
02-25-2006, 03:38 PM
Everybody that is uneasy about picking Bush is a DD lover. But let me tell you guys that Kubiak likes to use multiple RBs like he did in Denver. Davis will not have a problem getting the ball in his hands. Let me say that I do like Bush, but I am to a Domanick Davis fan. He will get his carries and touches on the ball, unless he demands a trade or does something un-team spirit like.:brickwall

Vinny
02-25-2006, 03:48 PM
Everybody that is uneasy about picking Bush is a DD lover. But let me tell you guys that Kubiak likes to use multiple RBs like he did in Denver. Davis will not have a problem getting the ball in his hands. Let me say that I do like Bush, but I am to a Domanick Davis fan. He will get his carries and touches on the ball, unless he demands a trade or does something un-team spirit like.:brickwallI wouldn't say that. People just have to be realistic. The most 'Bush-like' runner that Denver has had, they traded for a cornerback in Portis. Being a cynic is just being thoughtful about all the angles in this case. Bush may or may not ever be a conventional running back. He may not have to be...or he could be the Desmond Howard of RB's. All the top guys have flaws and all of them do not make it each year. Dom has nothing to do with it.

CITY CAT
02-25-2006, 05:52 PM
I wouldn't say that. People just have to be realistic. The most 'Bush-like' runner that Denver has had, they traded for a cornerback in Portis. Being a cynic is just being thoughtful about all the angles in this case. Bush may or may not ever be a conventional running back. He may not have to be...or he could be the Desmond Howard of RB's. All the top guys have flaws and all of them do not make it each year. Dom has nothing to do with it.

All I am trying to say is that Kubiak will find some way to make Dom a usefull and vital part of the offense. He is a very good football player and it would be absolutely foolish to let his talent go to waste.

run-david-run
02-25-2006, 07:18 PM
ummmmmmmmm ok...... so vy's speed wouldn't be an asset to the worse pass blocking o line in the history of the nfl?
Yes, just like Mike Vick's speed was an asset to a below average pass-blocking line in Atlanta. Oh, wait, Vick is sacked about 45 times a year, good enough for 2nd place, behind our Texans. Speed is not the key to avoiding sacks, ussualy it helps to have a semblence of an o-line, then, the QB has to have pocket presence. This means being able to tell where the defenders are coming from, how to avoid them while not taking your eyes away from the receivers. Most people say this is one of DC's biggest weaknesses, however, because the line is so incositent, usually its more then just one guy getting beat ie: Wade wiffs a block on the outside while McKinney is getting pushed backwards into the pocket. There is nowhere for DC to go. Build a solid pass-blocking line, it dosnt have to spectacular, but it has to at least be average.