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View Full Version : If a running back can run, why can't a QB?


Nighthawk
02-22-2006, 04:39 AM
One of the main arguments against VY is that he won't be able to do in the NFL the things he did in college. Heretofore I just assumed this was correct--it's what is always said of running QBs. But tonight I started wondering--why exactly can't he run? A RB runs and takes hits and keeps playing. So who's to say that VY can't? He's bigger by a good margin than many if not most of the people who'll be hitting him, he's elusive (all you have to do is watch some of his runs in college to see that), he's fast AND quick, and he has moves to avoid the hits. All things you'd want in a running back, I imagine.

So without falling back on the assumed cliches, please explain why VY won't be able to run some in the NFL. I'm not saying run 25-30 times a game, but on broken plays, pass/run option plays, some designed plays, VY could be used as a runner, could he not?

I guess I'm saying he's a pretty good running back as a QB and I don't think the NFL defenses are going to shut him down as easily as some of the posters here seem to think. I don't think VY will run roughshod over the Steelers D, but I'm wondering if he couldn't do some occasional damage in a game AND take the hits he might have to take to get the yards.

Set me straight on this one, will you guys?

aj.
02-22-2006, 07:38 AM
Domanick Davis, Fred Taylor, and Chris Brown spent a combined 23 weeks on the injury report last season. Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell spent a combined 8 weeks on the injury report last season. It's pretty simple. The more you get hit as a runner, the higher the injury risk. If you take the risk, you better be willing to accept the consequences and have a backup plan in place in case the risk becomes reality. "In general," RBs are able to be replaced more easily with less net effect to the overall team performance - just by sheer numbers and depth on the roster - than a star QB

infantrycak
02-22-2006, 07:44 AM
So without falling back on the assumed cliches, please explain why VY won't be able to run some in the NFL.

He will be able to run some but (1) as aj points out it may not be the best overall choice for the team for him to do so and (2) it will predictably be less effective (not ineffective, less--probably still makes lots of the 5-20 yd plays but doesn't bust off the 200 yd rushing days) because the field stays the same size and everyone on the field are both better athletes and smarter about their play. His running ability, especially to the extent he can use it to buy time before throwing, will be a big asset in the NFL.

nunusguy
02-22-2006, 08:03 AM
I guess I'm saying he's a pretty good running back as a QB and I don't think the NFL defenses are going to shut him down as easily as some of the posters here seem to think. I don't think VY will run roughshod over the Steelers D, but I'm wondering if he couldn't do some occasional damage in a game AND take the hits he might have to take to get the yards.

Try this on for size, OK ? If a RB was a mediocre runner but a guy with a
great arm who was a tremendous passer, you'd make him a QB. Right ?

The Myth
02-22-2006, 08:05 AM
For the same reason Pitchers can't bat in AL Baseball. Just kidding. He won't run on NFL teams like he did against, say, OK State...but you realize that already.

I'll say this...VY may not be able to do some things he did in college but he is still going to be able to do more than most NFL QB's. I don't see any reason there shouldn't be a few designed running plays. If he runs he still isn't likely going to get hit as much as Carr behind the line of scrimage...lol.

Whoever takes him will try to turn him into more of a pocket passer...because that is what NFL teams do. Partially because that is what they want in their QB, that is the norm, and to protect their investment. I think this will only make VY a better all around QB because teams are not going to be able to ignore his gamebreaking ability and not let him take off every now and then.

thunderkyss
02-22-2006, 08:44 AM
I don't see any reason there shouldn't be a few designed running plays.
Because you'll be designing your failure..... at all cost, we have to protect the QB. This means not to throw him out there to get hit. More than any single player, on any team, however goes the QB, so goes the team. If he struggles, your team struggles. If he's successful, your team is successful.

Sure, you're going to have exceptions..... David Garrod looks like he is ready to be a starter now, where in the past he wasn't. Most teams aren't that fortunate. When the Back up goes in, everybody says...."Oh yeah, that's why he's the backup."

Whoever takes him will try to turn him into more of a pocket passer...because that is what NFL teams do. Partially because that is what they want in their QB, that is the norm, and to protect their investment. I think this will only make VY a better all around QB because teams are not going to be able to ignore his gamebreaking ability and not let him take off every now and then.Yes and no........

You have guys like Jake Plummer, who is actually better on the move. You also have offensive lines, like ours, like Jakes, that weren't built for a drop back passer. Smaller more athletic linemen tend to get over powered by defensive ends/tackles who were bred to run over 300+ pound offensive linemen. So teams like Denver move the pocket. Why we don't, I don't know.

But if I had Vince, on this team, we'd move the pocket to protect him. Vince is great at moving to his right, and looking down field. If the play is broken, I'll try to keep Vince behind the line of scrimmage, moving laterally towards the sideline. He can either find the open reiciever, throw the ball away to protect himself, or if he sees an easy ten yard pick-up, go ahead and take it. But I'll be in his ear, if he has to slide before the ten yards, or takes a hit, regardless of the yardage he picks up.

One more thing...... McNabb, Culpepper, McNair........ they all play hurt, most of the time. Imagine if they could stay healthy for a whole season..

JohnGalt
02-22-2006, 08:57 AM
VY's mobility will be an asset in the NFL, but he won't be as effective scrambling as he was in NCAA. Everybody is faster.

Also QB's are typically in for every offensive play and the timing of the offense is dependant on consistancy at QB. How many times have you seen the face of the team change for better or worse when a new QB in subbed in? Most teams platoon their RB's in some fashion, so if one a guy has sit for a bit to clear his head, someone else can fill in for a few plays without a big change to the gameplan.

I don't question any NFL player's toughness (except maybe some kickers), but the fact is, the only time a QB gets hit is in a game when something goes wrong. RB's are just better at taking a beating and getting back up. They are trained for it.

Frills
02-22-2006, 09:47 AM
The better runners are more often to get injured as well...they bounce off one hit then get wholloped again when they finally get tackled, so in 1 play they take 2-3 hits if not more depending.

TexanAddict
02-22-2006, 11:14 AM
RB's are just better at taking a beating and getting back up. They are trained for it.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. The fact is, when RBs run, they aren't trying to do anything else. They are focused on hitting a hole and avoiding tackles, Keeping their shoulders and head low, thereby reducing most of the big hits they might otherwise absorb. QBs on the other hand, are often trying to by time to make a throw, which means they're attention is focused elsewhere leaving them open to be caught in an ackward position to take a big hit. And even when it is a called run or blown pass play where VY has committed to the run, he doesn't run like a RB, he tends to still run a bit too upright which could lead to serious injury on the professional level if he was to take off on a regular basis.

SESupergenius
02-22-2006, 12:25 PM
My take is that those "running" QB's don't get the job done because they are not utilized to their talents. Take Vick for instance, they tried to make him a strictly west coast offensive QB, that worked horribly because that is not Vicks game and coaches have to much of an ego to adapt to a QB's style. I don't think that Kubiak and his staff are going to bring in years of experience that they've gathered to come to a new team, select a staff, and just wing it around a rookie talent whom they do not have experience in coaching and letting him do his thing. Mack actaully let that happen, but it's not going to happen too often in the NFL.

Double Barrel
02-22-2006, 12:34 PM
If these "running" QBs of today were smart (meaning long term thinking and career preservation), they'd use their natural running abilities to scramble instead of run.

When I see old clips of Fran Tarkenton or Roger Staubach, it amazes me because those guys were great runners, but they never went past the line of scrimmage. They'd run 30-50 yards behind the line until a WR got open, then pass the ball. They took less punishment than if they were trying to gain positive yardage with their feet, and throwing the ball will always be a more effective way to gain yards for a QB than running with it.

Of course, a scrambling QB still has to have a great arm and lots of patience. I'm not sure if some of the young running QBs of today have both of those traits (not speaking of anyone specifically, just in general).

jerek
02-22-2006, 01:06 PM
He will be able to run some but (1) as aj points out it may not be the best overall choice for the team for him to do so and (2) it will predictably be less effective (not ineffective, less--probably still makes lots of the 5-20 yd plays but doesn't bust off the 200 yd rushing days) because the field stays the same size and everyone on the field are both better athletes and smarter about their play. His running ability, especially to the extent he can use it to buy time before throwing, will be a big asset in the NFL.

This is what I will be interested to see. How quickly does Young adapt to NFL defenses as far as his scrambling/running goes? I do not think you will see "Vince Young run" plays called very much, if at all. As AJ and others have said, it is typically far more detrimental to your offense if your starting QB goes out than does your starting RB, and if Vince is deliberately running the ball, the simple truth is he is more exposed and more likely to take that killer blow. Even if he doesn't get KO'ed, he will still get tired quicker or pick up little nagging injuries. Sure, there will be times where he can just take off and go, but I wonder how long it will take him to get accustomed to the faster athletes/better pursuit angles.

Will be interesting to see.

stevo3883
02-22-2006, 06:50 PM
This is what I will be interested to see. How quickly does Young adapt to NFL defenses as far as his scrambling/running goes? I do not think you will see "Vince Young run" plays called very much, if at all. As AJ and others have said, it is typically far more detrimental to your offense if your starting QB goes out than does your starting RB, and if Vince is deliberately running the ball, the simple truth is he is more exposed and more likely to take that killer blow. Even if he doesn't get KO'ed, he will still get tired quicker or pick up little nagging injuries. Sure, there will be times where he can just take off and go, but I wonder how long it will take him to get accustomed to the faster athletes/better pursuit angles.

Will be interesting to see.


its weird, honestly I feel like if your mobile qb has good instincts as far as avoiding hits goes, hes fine. I would rather carr get tackled in the open field than to get blindsided in the pocket.

and one more note, I have never in my entire life seen VY tired, its really weird. i was talkin to my fiend about it a few weeks ago, and we both noticed we have never seen vince fatigued.

AustinJB
02-22-2006, 07:28 PM
and one more note, I have never in my entire life seen VY tired, its really weird. i was talkin to my fiend about it a few weeks ago, and we both noticed we have never seen vince fatigued.

I've noticed that too. That's just another example of his work ethic and conditioning.

Go back and look at the end of the USC game. Even after playing full-speed in a tight game all day and running for 200 yards, he still never looked fatigued during UT's last two drives. I have a pic of him running for the 80-yard TD against Oklahoma St.....there is a close-up of his head and if you didn't know any better, you'd think he was sitting on the sideline...no huffing,puffing, eyes open wide...nothing....just calm and effortless.

dat_boy_yec
02-22-2006, 08:16 PM
I think Young will be able to run and scramble at the next level. I just think it won't be as big a part of his game as it was in college. Alot of reasons have already been given as to why. So I'll just throw this one on top of those. A running back's main weapon are his legs. So he can lower his shoulder and take a lick, whereas the QB's greatest weapon is his arm, yes his legs can be a weapon but he needs to pass. So when he lowers his shoulders to take a hit especially his passing shoulder. There's always a risk he could injure it or wear it out.

Bubbajwp
02-22-2006, 08:20 PM
My only problem with running QBs is that they have a history of getting hurt in the pros and no modern day running QB has ever won a championship.

stevo3883
02-22-2006, 08:31 PM
My only problem with running QBs is that they have a history of getting hurt in the pros and no modern day running QB has ever won a championship.


there hadnt been one to win a national championship since tommy frazier, and he was an entirely running qb.


fact is there hasnt been a qb like Vince, vick wasnt in college long enough to reach the level where vince is.


its just so hard to find a guy whos athletic enough to beat a team on the ground, but smart enough to beat them through the air as well. A great true dual-threat qb is the hardest thing to find in football. People are always a lot better than one than the other. Vince showed a level of both that hasnt really ever been seen (3000 passing yards 26 td's nation leading qb efficiency rating, 1000 rushing yards 12 td's @ 7ypc)

there is Vick who is a fantastic runner, and a mediocre passer. and guys like mcnabb and culpepper who are fantastic passers and so-so runners.

I'd put vince in the good/great passer and fantastic runner.

stevo3883
02-22-2006, 08:32 PM
and just fyi there is a history of every kind of qb getting hurt in the pros. its rare for a player to not get hurt.

the fact that there are a lot more non-mobile qb's means that there will be more that don't end up injured than the few scrambling qb's.

Bubbajwp
02-22-2006, 08:37 PM
there hadnt been one to win a national championship since tommy frazier, and he was an entirely running qb.


fact is there hasnt been a qb like Vince, vick wasnt in college long enough to reach the level where vince is.


its just so hard to find a guy whos athletic enough to beat a team on the ground, but smart enough to beat them through the air as well. A great true dual-threat qb is the hardest thing to find in football. People are always a lot better than one than the other. Vince showed a level of both that hasnt really ever been seen (3000 passing yards 26 td's nation leading qb efficiency rating, 1000 rushing yards 12 td's @ 7ypc)

there is Vick who is a fantastic runner, and a mediocre passer. and guys like mcnabb and culpepper who are fantastic passers and so-so runners.

I'd put vince in the good/great passer and fantastic runner.
I agree I think Vince could easily be better than any of the QBs you mentioned.

Bubbajwp
02-22-2006, 08:41 PM
and just fyi there is a history of every kind of qb getting hurt in the pros. its rare for a player to not get hurt.

the fact that there are a lot more non-mobile qb's means that there will be more that don't end up injured than the few scrambling qb's.
You cant tell me that running QBs dont stand a better chance of getting hurt than a pocket QB considering Vick, McNabb, Culpepper, and McNair which is every starting runing QB all got hurt at some point during last season.

Wolf
02-22-2006, 08:42 PM
If teams were so high on running QB's ..a variation of the veer or wishbone offense would work in the NFL.. It doesn't

IMO goes along the same lines of the run and shoot offense normally (save ST.Louis that one year) ..don coryell all those high powered offenses usually get shut down...

stevo3883
02-22-2006, 08:45 PM
You cant tell me that running QBs dont stand a better chance of getting hurt than a pocket QB considering Vick, McNabb, Culpepper, and McNair which is every starting runing QB all got hurt at some point during last season.


mcnabb, culpepper, and mcnair aren't running qb's any more. perhaps you meant to say black qbs?

Carr runs more than all of them but vick.

Bubbajwp
02-22-2006, 08:46 PM
mcnabb, culpepper, and mcnair aren't running qb's any more. perhaps you meant to say black qbs?

Carr runs more than all of them but vick.
Nice try but no thats not what i meant.

AlbinoRat
02-22-2006, 08:46 PM
The main concern I have, not a problem, just a concern, is the beating he'll take scrambling. Although, David Carr takes a beating no matter what he's doing, so we might as well have someone who can run and get some yardage.

stevo3883
02-22-2006, 08:49 PM
Nice try but no thats not what i meant.


then please explain how they are the only running qbs in the league, when Carr runs more than all of them?

Bubbajwp
02-22-2006, 08:51 PM
Obviously every QB in the league runs. They are known for Running because there better than everybody else at doing it.

AlbinoRat
02-22-2006, 08:52 PM
mcnabb, culpepper, and mcnair aren't running qb's any more. perhaps you meant to say black qbs?

Carr runs more than all of them but vick.


Correction: David Carr doesn't run, he gets chased.

Bubbajwp
02-22-2006, 08:54 PM
Correction: David Carr doesn't run, he gets chased.
You could say he Runs for his life.

mexican_texan
02-22-2006, 09:49 PM
A quarterback is half as good as a halfback, which is half as good as a full back.

David Carr doesn't run, he just tries to make the sack more dramatic.

jerek
02-23-2006, 10:05 AM
when i saw Big Ben running in the super bowl, my first thought was.... OMG, Vince would shred and tear up that D.

why? because the D would either play like they did with big ben or they would be so worried about VY that he could hand off to a running back.

if big ben and even hasselback had several long runs, VY would make them look like, well, just like they were avg. qb's running. vy is amazing when he runs, he is rarely hit, if ever. what experts think he will take the hits in the nfl, he has instict of the game, carr doesn't, i see him taking some serious shots trying to run. he doesn't have the size of young, but even young knows better than to take those shots.

young is the GREATEST college player, for the Texans to pass on him will alienate many Houstonians.

Not this again. I thought we were finally clearing this off of the board.

What's amazing about Vince Young is that when he played in college he was rarely hit. What's weird about the pros is that there isn't a whole hell of a lot of resemblance to the college game. If you think Vince will be able to dance about like a gazelle in the pros, think again. Much faster athletes + much better pursuit angles - gimmick college defense = much less opportunity for In-Vince-Able to strut his way into the Hall of Fame before he has even taken a pro snap.

Vince will be able to run in the NFL. He will probably even be really good at it. But you are mistaken if you think NFL defenses are going to go USC on him. It flat out will not happen. The guy will have to learn to throw better and work a pro offense under center and fix his quirky mechanics. Can he do all of that? I say probably so, but get ready to watch him work at it.

If passing on Vince alienates silly opinions from the message board, then I say bring it on. Like the guy for what he is, even what he might do, but recognize the utter hyperbole in your statements.

HJam72
02-23-2006, 10:13 AM
We could take VY, make him a RB, and pay him less. Then, when he fails at that and Bush is a bust, we can bring in Bush and make them our 2 and 3 receivers. I'm kidding, but I really can see Young and Bush being the next Moss and Owens. I can see Young with the attitude too.

Vinny
02-23-2006, 10:33 AM
One of the main arguments against VY is that he won't be able to do in the NFL the things he did in college. Heretofore I just assumed this was correct--it's what is always said of running QBs. But tonight I started wondering--why exactly can't he run? A RB runs and takes hits and keeps playing. So who's to say that VY can't? He's bigger by a good margin than many if not most of the people who'll be hitting him, he's elusive (all you have to do is watch some of his runs in college to see that), he's fast AND quick, and he has moves to avoid the hits. All things you'd want in a running back, I imagine.

So without falling back on the assumed cliches, please explain why VY won't be able to run some in the NFL. I'm not saying run 25-30 times a game, but on broken plays, pass/run option plays, some designed plays, VY could be used as a runner, could he not?

I guess I'm saying he's a pretty good running back as a QB and I don't think the NFL defenses are going to shut him down as easily as some of the posters here seem to think. I don't think VY will run roughshod over the Steelers D, but I'm wondering if he couldn't do some occasional damage in a game AND take the hits he might have to take to get the yards.

Set me straight on this one, will you guys?There is more team speed in the NFL and as aj stated early on; the more hits you take the more risk you assume. There is a reason you do not see the big time running QB's in NCAA translate to the NFL. The Quarterback is the guy who distributes the ball so most teams would rather not have down time in a QB like they can handle at RB. Vince Young will not run like he did in College, but he will be a nightmare to contain in the red zone. He can make the accurate throw on the run and teams will have to dedicate a man to him from either out of coverage or out of the rush. Teams will have to dilute themselves in come critical area to stop a quick scamper in the red zone.

jerek
02-23-2006, 10:52 AM
There is more team speed in the NFL and as aj stated early on; the more hits you take the more risk you assume. There is a reason you do not see the big time running QB's in NCAA translate to the NFL. The Quarterback is the guy who distributes the ball so most teams would rather not have down time in a QB like they can handle at RB. Vince Young will not run like he did in College, but he will be a nightmare to contain in the red zone. He can make the accurate throw on the run and teams will have to dedicate a man to him from either out of coverage or out of the rush. Teams will have to dilute themselves in come critical area to stop a quick scamper in the red zone.

That is a true statement, I think. Should be one of his greatest pro strengths.

TJFord
02-23-2006, 01:43 PM
For the purposes of this thread I assume that those disparaging VY are in the RB corner (which may not be the case). Anyway, explain to me how there is a worry of Vince being hurt 5-10 times a game yet that is not as big a worry for RB running the ball 15-20 times? VY outweighs RB by more than 30 lbs!! We are talking about a guy the size of a linebacker, we aren't talking about the avergae QB.

HJam72
02-23-2006, 01:46 PM
For the purposes of this thread I assume that those disparaging VY are in the RB corner (which may not be the case). Anyway, explain to me how there is a worry of Vince being hurt 5-10 times a game yet that is not as big a worry for RB running the ball 15-20 times? VY outweighs RB by more than 30 lbs!! We are talking about a guy the size of a linebacker, we aren't talking about the avergae QB.

Good point. Let's not take either one. :twocents: I wanted to take Bush #1, but you talked me out of it. :ok:

JohnGalt
02-23-2006, 04:21 PM
For the purposes of this thread I assume that those disparaging VY are in the RB corner (which may not be the case). Anyway, explain to me how there is a worry of Vince being hurt 5-10 times a game yet that is not as big a worry for RB running the ball 15-20 times? VY outweighs RB by more than 30 lbs!! We are talking about a guy the size of a linebacker, we aren't talking about the avergae QB.

I feel the need to restate my earlier post...


VY's mobility will be an asset in the NFL, but he won't be as effective scrambling as he was in NCAA. Everybody is faster.

Also QB's are typically in for every offensive play and the timing of the offense is dependant on consistancy at QB. How many times have you seen the face of the team change for better or worse when a new QB in subbed in? Most teams platoon their RB's in some fashion, so if one a guy has sit for a bit to clear his head, someone else can fill in for a few plays without a big change to the gameplan.

I don't question any NFL player's toughness (except maybe some kickers), but the fact is, the only time a QB gets hit is in a game when something goes wrong. RB's are just better at taking a beating and getting back up. They are trained for it.

Plus Culpepper is listed as 260 lbs. He missed 9 games while little Tiki Barber can play all 16 games year after year.

All QB's (including VY) are not trained to take hits like a RB. It's a simple fact. He has the potential to be good mobile QB, but you're foolling yourself if you think an NFL coaching staff is going to design plays that set him up for a run.

stevo3883
02-23-2006, 05:18 PM
All QB's (including VY) are not trained to take hits like a RB. It's a simple fact. He has the potential to be good mobile QB, but you're foolling yourself if you think an NFL coaching staff is going to design plays that set him up for a run.

they would be stupid not to.

the guy had as many 200 yard games as reggie bush, and you don't think he will get any designed run plays?

give me a break

Waltman
02-23-2006, 05:23 PM
I can see Vince getting the occasional QB draw and being successful but not with anything else.:twocents:

infantrycak
02-23-2006, 05:49 PM
they would be stupid not to.

the guy had as many 200 yard games as reggie bush, and you don't think he will get any designed run plays?

give me a break

How many of Vick's 102 run plays last year were designed to be run 1st plays?--20-25 tops, probably less. VY's running ability and elusiveness are fantastic assets but he isn't going to be used as run 1st option in the NFL to any significant degree.

It is beyond silliness to act like the fact that both had 2 200+ yd games last year means they are anything similar as rushers. A QB rushes on broken plays/option plays for the most part, even VY at UT. That just isn't the same as getting a hand off and having to look down field and figure out how to get thru/past 11 guys as a RB.

stevo3883
02-23-2006, 06:39 PM
How many of Vick's 102 run plays last year were designed to be run 1st plays?--20-25 tops, probably less. VY's running ability and elusiveness are fantastic assets but he isn't going to be used as run 1st option in the NFL to any significant degree.

It is beyond silliness to act like the fact that both had 2 200+ yd games last year means they are anything similar as rushers. A QB rushes on broken plays/option plays for the most part, even VY at UT. That just isn't the same as getting a hand off and having to look down field and figure out how to get thru/past 11 guys as a RB.


pretty sure i didnt say they were similar runners. but instead that any coach would be stupid to not have designed run plays for a guy who averaged 7ypc in college.

neither you nor I know how he will be used, but stating that he *wont* be running designed run plays is "beyond silliness"

Koolbrz
02-23-2006, 06:47 PM
mcnabb, culpepper, and mcnair aren't running qb's any more. perhaps you meant to say black qbs?

Carr runs more than all of them but vick.


Why did the race card have to come up? They are about the only running QB's in the league. Along with Carr and Vick, and they did go down this season. Seems to me like running QB's are not going to be as effective as they used to be.

stevo3883
02-23-2006, 06:52 PM
Why did the race card have to come up? They are about the only running QB's in the league. Along with Carr and Vick, and they did go down this season. Seems to me like running QB's are not going to be as effective as they used to be.

the race card? im white...

but im not so dumb to think that all black qbs are running qbs.

Mcnair, Mcnabb, and Culpepper havent been running qbs foir a while. give me a break.

Koolbrz
02-23-2006, 07:00 PM
the race card? im white...

but im not so dumb to think that all black qbs are running qbs.

Mcnair, Mcnabb, and Culpepper havent been running qbs foir a while. give me a break.


Thats my point, you can't be a running QB in this league for too long. All you need is a good hit on one of them knees and your done for the yr. Even Vick is starting to have problems with injuries. Defenses are starting to contain them kinda like the run-n-shoot.

stevo3883
02-23-2006, 07:06 PM
Thats my point, you can't be a running QB in this league for too long. All you need is a good hit on one of them knees and your done for the yr. Even Vick is starting to have problems with injuries. Defenses are starting to contain them kinda like the run-n-shoot.


mcnabb and culpepper were never big time runners to begin with. they were just scramblers who have become elite passers.

vick is the only one with running back level skills, and a big reason hes got hurt is hes so small.

infantrycak
02-23-2006, 07:25 PM
vick is the only one with running back level skills, and a big reason hes got hurt is hes so small.

Size has to be one of the most overused determinants of injury out there, especially where height is ignored. Warrick Dunn as one of the smallest NFL RB's (180 lbs) has only missed significant playing time in 1 season of 9. Likewise Tony Dorsett, Emmitt Smith, Curtis Martin. On the flip side are big guys like Fred Taylor, Daunte Culpepper, etc. whose size has not saved them from injury. Luck and play style have more to do with injuries than size IMO. VY is less than 10% heavier than Vick (215 lbs vs. 233 lbs) and 5 inches taller--relatively speaking, they have the same build. Not saying VY will get injured, just that there is no reason to predict he will not if he tries to run as much as Vick based upon his size. Now Vick takes some huge hits because of his style which I have not seen VY have a propensity to take so the end result may very well be VY is injured less--frankly I don't see him running as much as Vick anyway.

phantom17
02-23-2006, 07:45 PM
Correction: David Carr doesn't run, he gets chased.

......then runs out of bounds for a sack!:spy:

Nighthawk
02-23-2006, 08:48 PM
Why did the race card have to come up? They are about the only running QB's in the league. Along with Carr and Vick, and they did go down this season. Seems to me like running QB's are not going to be as effective as they used to be.

Is somebody saying Carr is a "running QB"? That's silly. Carr runs mostly on screwed up plays and though he has a fair # of yards that's due largely to the number of screwed up plays not to any talent for running. He has none, make that NONE, of the skillset of a runner of any kind, either RB or running QB.

Wolf
02-23-2006, 08:51 PM
Is somebody saying Carr is a "running QB"? That's silly. Carr runs mostly on screwed up plays and though he has a fair # of yards that's due largely to the number of screwed up plays not to any talent for running. He has none, make that NONE, of the skillset of a runner of any kind, either RB or running QB.

so we can say that is why DD gets a bunch of passes in the flat ? ..because Aj is doubled and we have no TE and an inconsistant #2 WR??

stevo3883
02-23-2006, 09:02 PM
Size has to be one of the most overused determinants of injury out there, especially where height is ignored. Warrick Dunn as one of the smallest NFL RB's (180 lbs) has only missed significant playing time in 1 season of 9. Likewise Tony Dorsett, Emmitt Smith, Curtis Martin. On the flip side are big guys like Fred Taylor, Daunte Culpepper, etc. whose size has not saved them from injury. Luck and play style have more to do with injuries than size IMO. VY is less than 10% heavier than Vick (215 lbs vs. 233 lbs) and 5 inches taller--relatively speaking, they have the same build. Not saying VY will get injured, just that there is no reason to predict he will not if he tries to run as much as Vick based upon his size. Now Vick takes some huge hits because of his style which I have not seen VY have a propensity to take so the end result may very well be VY is injured less--frankly I don't see him running as much as Vick anyway.


size has a lot to do with injury.

i think u said u went to cal, so obviously you know about physics. so come on, you know a guy at 6'0 210 lbs body can't absorb as much force from a hit as a guy who is 6'5 235 lbs.

a big fast guy hitting a little fast guy is obviously going to spell doom for the little guy, he just can't match the force delivered.

a big fast guy hitting a guy just as big and fast is an even battle, and whoever used the better technique will usually come out on top.



and about vick having relatively the same build as vince...

vick has a perfect running back build
http://images.nfl.com/images/2002/vick_092202.jpg

vince has a nba small forward build http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/tim_layden/07/07/five.and.out/Vince-Young-7.6.jpg

stevo3883
02-23-2006, 09:04 PM
Is somebody saying Carr is a "running QB"? That's silly. Carr runs mostly on screwed up plays and though he has a fair # of yards that's due largely to the number of screwed up plays not to any talent for running. He has none, make that NONE, of the skillset of a runner of any kind, either RB or running QB.


if mcnabb, mcnair, and culpepper are "running qb's", then Carr must be as well. none of them have designed runs, and rarely scramble.

jgite
02-23-2006, 10:12 PM
Vince can have a few designed run plays (like draws & naked bootlegs) We've seen Carr run the naked boot adequately and I think Vince could flourish in them especially in the redzone. Carr runs the play-action good, but Vince could be a legitimate threat to run or past. DC has done roll-out plays but they haven't always worked as planned to no fault of his own. (No TE threat and #2 receiver). In the Kubiak offense VY could give you around 200 yards passing and maybe about 50-75 yards on the ground give or take some yards because we will get sacked in the beginning.

Besides alot the routes and some of the personnel that Texas used came from Indy. If you are looking for him to make the 3 & 5 step drop look at his high school videos. He did more under-the-center than shotgun formations.

P.S. Carr would make an excellent QB in the spread if it was popular when he was at Fresno. He has the speed for it.

Koolbrz
02-23-2006, 11:39 PM
Is somebody saying Carr is a "running QB"? That's silly. Carr runs mostly on screwed up plays and though he has a fair # of yards that's due largely to the number of screwed up plays not to any talent for running. He has none, make that NONE, of the skillset of a runner of any kind, either RB or running QB.


Okay, he is not a MV type runner, but you have to admit being chased or not the guy can run. Can you just imagine if he was a Vinny T. type QB. He would have been sacked more than 100 times this yr. Give the guy a lil bit of credit for something.

TreWardTxn
02-24-2006, 01:14 AM
What makes Young so special as a runner (and why I believe he has the ability to be a great running threat in the NFL) is that in addition to being able to see (and feel) all the running lanes around him, he also has the strength to pull away from arm tackles, even from DEs. It is next to impossible that Young will have a 200 yard rushing game in the NFL (probably a few 100 yard ones in his first few years starting), but he doesn't have to in order to have success. Offense is about moving the ball, picking up first downs long enough to wait for a breakdown in the defense. What D coordinator in his right mind would leave Young unspyed in a 3rd down situation? That alone frees up an extra man against what would likely be zone coverage, giving an opportunity for even marginal players to get good matchups. This is part of VY's on the field ability to make players around him better. Vick's scrambling style is too often frenetic in nature; McNabb and Culpepper do not possess the sheer athleticism that Young does, who could actually play another NFL skill position. If these weapons come together with an understanding of coverages and consistent accurarcy, he would be the single hardest player to defend in the NFL...

BTW...Carr is above-averagely mobile for an NFL QB, I think he could execute Kubiak's system of bootlegs and rollouts fairly well. I just think his on the run throwing is hit and miss. I have seen some bullets and I have seen some WTFs...

phan1
02-24-2006, 02:14 AM
I don't think having injuries will be that big of a worry with VY's scrambling skills. I've watched him play and he's pretty smart about not having to take the big hit if he doesn't have to (unlike Vick). He's just really good at knowing when to hold em and when to fold em in that reguard. He was a bit more reckless and got injured his Sophomore year, but I didn't see him take a big hit once his Junior year.

Big B Texan Fan
02-24-2006, 02:40 AM
I don't think having injuries will be that big of a worry with VY's scrambling skills. I've watched him play and he's pretty smart about not having to take the big hit if he doesn't have to (unlike Vick). He's just really good at knowing when to hold em and when to fold em in that reguard. He was a bit more reckless and got injured his Sophomore year, but I didn't see him take a big hit once his Junior year.
Mack Brown said he has never sustained an injury while at UT. He may have taken a play or 2 off but he has never been injured.

Nighthawk
02-24-2006, 03:03 AM
vince has a nba small forward build http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/tim_layden/07/07/five.and.out/Vince-Young-7.6.jpg

Why is Vince carrying those three guys around?

Nighthawk
02-24-2006, 03:04 AM
if mcnabb, mcnair, and culpepper are "running qb's", then Carr must be as well. none of them have designed runs, and rarely scramble.

I said he has none of the skillset of a runner, not that he didn't run. He did & does, badly, and to the detriment of the team.

jerek
02-24-2006, 10:17 AM
size has a lot to do with injury.

i think u said u went to cal, so obviously you know about physics. so come on, you know a guy at 6'0 210 lbs body can't absorb as much force from a hit as a guy who is 6'5 235 lbs.

a big fast guy hitting a little fast guy is obviously going to spell doom for the little guy, he just can't match the force delivered.

a big fast guy hitting a guy just as big and fast is an even battle, and whoever used the better technique will usually come out on top.



and about vick having relatively the same build as vince...

vick has a perfect running back build
http://images.nfl.com/images/2002/vick_092202.jpg

vince has a nba small forward build http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/tim_layden/07/07/five.and.out/Vince-Young-7.6.jpg

Nice nod to physics. What sucks for you is that you completely ignored the implications of physics while trying to make your rapidly failing point.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/physics-of-football4.htm

All other things being equal (leg strength, etc.) a guy like Vince Young is not only easier to tackle than is Mike Vick, but because of his higher center of gravity and increased weight, will fall harder for it.

The difficulty of applying physics is of course that every tackle is inherently a little different in terms of force/impulse/point of impact etc. etc. etc. Past this simple counter argument that I have offered, there are so many things that happen on any given tackle, there is truly a "luck" factor or a "bad luck" factor. Gang tackles increase risk of injury, knees twist in strange directions, and on many injuries, it is simply a case of weird **** happening. I would be interested to know the ratio of "heavy" guys to "light" guys that have gotten hurt in the NFL. I suspect that the heavies are holding a substantial lead.

Now, as infantry pointed out, Vick has shown a propensity for "dumber" runs, setting himself up to take big shots and not learning how to get down or out of bounds. Now here is a factor that might contribute toward Vick being more injury prone.

If you are going to argue against Vince getting injured vs Vick, you might try a heaping helping of knowing-just-wtf-you're-talking-about. Don't bring physics into the picture unless you can back it up with more than a ridiculously half-*** one-liner. If I am wrong and you have some kind of substantial formulaic approach to this latest theory you are popping, then by all means, share with the class: I'd like to learn.

infantrycak
02-24-2006, 11:04 AM
i think u said u went to cal, so obviously you know about physics. so come on, you know a guy at 6'0 210 lbs body can't absorb as much force from a hit as a guy who is 6'5 235 lbs.

Yup, went to Berkeley and let me check, yup that is a physics degree on the wall as a matter of fact. There are simply too many variables in the process of tackling to make the general statement you are trying to assert. Frankly, it is pretty obvious if you think about the majority of injuries each year and don't resort to a trite (not saying it doesn't have some facial appeal, but the empirical evidence doesn't meet the theory) recitation about weight, that most injuries are a result of unlucky falls/angles/impacts which weight clearly would not have made a difference on. Would Culpepper's knee last year or McGahee's knee a couple years ago not have blown out if they were 20 lbs heavier?--how about Wong last year or Sharper or Payne the year before in New Orleans? Very few guys come out of games going ooh my body just hurts--they come out as a result of a specific failure such as a knee, ankle, shoulder, etc.--think about what percentage of injuries are joints. That is getting hit at a bad angle, not a weight issue the vast majority of the time.

a big fast guy hitting a little fast guy is obviously going to spell doom for the little guy, he just can't match the force delivered.

Might want to send JJ Moses and Dante Hall a memo about this--they don't seem to know it. In any event, the issue isn't the smaller guy attempting to match the force delivered it is surviving it without injury. If the blow doesn't exceed the failure limit of some part on the players' body he is going to get up and keep playing.

and about vick having relatively the same build as vince...

They have almost exactly the same weight to height ratio. Compare with someone more thickly built like Donovan McNabb at 6' 2" 240 lbs--although that hasn't particularly protected him from injury.

cuppacoffee
02-24-2006, 11:36 AM
My take is that those "running" QB's don't get the job done because they are not utilized to their talents. Take Vick for instance, they tried to make him a strictly west coast offensive QB, that worked horribly because that is not Vicks game and coaches have to much of an ego to adapt to a QB's style. I don't think that Kubiak and his staff are going to bring in years of experience that they've gathered to come to a new team, select a staff, and just wing it around a rookie talent whom they do not have experience in coaching and letting him do his thing. Mack actaully let that happen, but it's not going to happen too often in the NFL.

Ses is right...
a small quote from an article on profootball.com about the Falcons trading Vick.

"Apart from the huge cap hit that the Falcons would take by moving Vick now, they'd have trouble finding someone to give up significant value for him. As we hear it, a lot of teams regard him as a pain in the *** -- and as a guy who will only be successful if an offense is specifically designed to enhance his strengths, and to conceal his weaknesses."


Article On Vick (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm)


:coffee:

stevo3883
02-24-2006, 12:16 PM
well i think we're talking about different kinds of injurys.

Im talking about impact injuries like bruises and breaks- thats what always happened to me playing football.

seems like yall are talking about twists and sprains. that never happened to me in football, but in wrestling... thats a whole other deal.


size matters a lot when it comes to bruises and impact injuries. when you're big you deliver the impact.

stevo3883
02-24-2006, 12:20 PM
They have almost exactly the same weight to height ratio. Compare with someone more thickly built like Donovan McNabb at 6' 2" 240 lbs--although that hasn't particularly protected him from injury.

meh as someone that wrestled their whole life, I can tell you height/weight ratio might be the worst possible way to measure someone.

bone density, muscle mass, any fat- you can see two people the same height and weight, with totally different builds. this is obvious with vick and vy.

thunderkyss
02-24-2006, 12:44 PM
Might want to send JJ Moses and Dante Hall a memo about this--they don't seem to know it. In any event, the issue isn't the smaller guy attempting to match the force delivered it is surviving it without injury. If the blow doesn't exceed the failure limit of some part on the players' body he is going to get up and keep playing.



Nio matter how many times I see it, I just can't accept it. those guys, and Warrick Dunn...... man I'm soooo worried about them taking a real lick.... honestly.. I don't know how they do what they do.... it baffles me.

infantrycak
02-24-2006, 12:51 PM
bone density, muscle mass, any fat- you can see two people the same height and weight, with totally different builds. this is obvious with vick and vy.

I agree with the first statement, but disagree with the 2nd. Young and Vick both appear very thin and similar for their heights IMO. Roethlisberger is the same height as VY and only 8 lbs heavier but looks very different. IMO VY looks like you proportionately increased everything on Vick while Roeth looks nothing like that. Doesn't mean I think VY is in any way similar as a runner to Vick. JMO, but VY is a whole lot closer to Vick in body type (although larger obviously) than he is to McNabb, Culpepper or Roethlisberger.

beerlover
02-24-2006, 01:08 PM
I agree with the first statement, but disagree with the 2nd. Young and Vick both appear very thin and similar for their heights IMO. Roethlisberger is the same height as VY and only 8 lbs heavier but looks very different. IMO VY looks like you proportionately increased everything on Vick while Roeth looks nothing like that. Doesn't mean I think VY is in any way similar as a runner to Vick. JMO, but VY is a whole lot closer to Vick in body type (although larger obviously) than he is to McNabb, Culpepper or Roethlisberger.


don't forget to include footspeed too, that VY is more similar to Vick except it just takes Vick twice as many steps to travel the same distance :wow:

CoastalTexan
02-24-2006, 01:18 PM
Even if he doesnt get injured (everyone does that runs alot). He will get shaken up and those bumps and bruises will distract him from his main job. Passing the ball to the open guy and being the brain of the offense. If your shaken up by a hit from a Sean Taylor or Roy Williams your not doin your primary job. Kinda like a WR who can run really fast but doesnt have the best of hands cough:bradford:cough. I hope that made sense.

utahmark
02-24-2006, 01:22 PM
Domanick Davis, Fred Taylor, and Chris Brown spent a combined 23 weeks on the injury report last season. Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell spent a combined 8 weeks on the injury report last season. It's pretty simple. The more you get hit as a runner, the higher the injury risk. If you take the risk, you better be willing to accept the consequences and have a backup plan in place in case the risk becomes reality. "In general," RBs are able to be replaced more easily with less net effect to the overall team performance - just by sheer numbers and depth on the roster - than a star QB


tell me again why we are drafting a rb with the overall #1 pick?

tulexan
02-24-2006, 01:26 PM
Because he is the consensus best player in the draft and the best running back prospect since Barry Sanders or Marshall Faulk.

Frills
02-24-2006, 01:44 PM
tell me again why we are drafting a rb with the overall #1 pick?

DD won't be getting hit as much in a RBBC set up, and when he does go down you have a backup option.

It also gives some versatility in schemes as well.

Course if we were to draft VY, he either be holding a clipboard, or lines up as a WR at least 4-5 plays a game.

swtbound07
02-24-2006, 03:00 PM
Because he is the consensus best player in the draft and the best running back prospect since Barry Sanders or Marshall Faulk.


Come on now...i was willing to stay out of it until you say consensus...there is most definitely not a consensus, otherwise 90 percent of the threads on this board wouldnt exist...we would have came up with a reggie bush theme song by now.

Bubbajwp
02-24-2006, 03:10 PM
Come on now...i was willing to stay out of it until you say consensus...there is most definitely not a consensus, otherwise 90 percent of the threads on this board wouldnt exist...we would have came up with a reggie bush theme song by now.
Thats because were in TEXAS.

swtbound07
02-24-2006, 04:44 PM
Thats because were in TEXAS.


Actually my friend, i live in clearwater florida. Next reason?

infantrycak
02-24-2006, 05:05 PM
Come on now...i was willing to stay out of it until you say consensus...there is most definitely not a consensus, otherwise 90 percent of the threads on this board wouldnt exist...we would have came up with a reggie bush theme song by now.

Got any sources other than this MB? Honest question. I have only seen 1 or 2 mock drafts which do not have the Texans taking Bush and only 1 or 2 who have Young being taken as the 1st QB. With hundreds of mock drafts around, that seems like a consensus. Doesn't mean the consensus is right, but it is a consensus. Seriously, you have to admit that other than on this MB, the vast majority of pundits whether right or wrong in their judgment have Bush going to the Texans.

Koolbrz
02-24-2006, 05:13 PM
Why is Vince carrying those three guys around?


Can you imagine if he was being held up like this by a couple of defensive backs and then here comes Roy Williams or B. Dawkins or maybe a hard hitting LB. Not a good thing for VY. We are talkin about, see you next yr buddy. Them knees have targets on them. Can you not see them?

thunderkyss
02-24-2006, 05:30 PM
All other things being equal (leg strength, etc.) a guy like Vince Young is not only easier to tackle than is Mike Vick, but because of his higher center of gravity and increased weight, will fall harder for it.

The fact is, that Vince runs darn near straight up. Vick, and Running backs don't. They run low to the ground, getting themselves ready to win in the leverage battle. They curl up in a little ball as they run, always bracing themselves for the next hit. Their thighs are about the size of beer Kegs, unlike those corn dogs Vince runs on.......

All that being said, The first time I saw Donavan and Dante play, I was amazed at how DBs and Linebakers couldn't bring them down. Corners bounce off those guys, and they appear to barely have noticed.

That being said, they, along with McNair, are always playing hurt. Always have nagging injuries, and always coming up short.

I would not be so stupid to design plays for Vick to run. other than naked bootlegs and QB sneaks. But I wouldn't keep him in the pocket either.

Let Vince Young play in Denver for a couple of years, and they will win a SuperBowl. They have the perfect system for him.

Now all you haters....... don't get too upset that I said Vince will win the SuperBowl in two years...... it's simply speculation on my part, and nothing more. Don't blow it out of proportion.

thunderkyss
02-24-2006, 05:37 PM
Can you imagine if he was being held up like this by a couple of defensive backs and then here comes Roy Williams or B. Dawkins or maybe a hard hitting LB. Not a good thing for VY. We are talkin about, see you next yr buddy. Them knees have targets on them. Can you not see them?


But big ole solid Reggie Bush doesn't have to worry about this right??
I know he's fast, and most teams don't have someone who can catch him from behind..... but he'll start every play infront of the defense, and he'll have to find his way around them.

TexansTrueFan
02-24-2006, 06:37 PM
cause a QB gets drafted mainly for the purpose of his arm, the legs are a bonus. i say pass before running. UNLESS you are M. Vick

swtbound07
02-24-2006, 07:15 PM
Got any sources other than this MB? Honest question. I have only seen 1 or 2 mock drafts which do not have the Texans taking Bush and only 1 or 2 who have Young being taken as the 1st QB. With hundreds of mock drafts around, that seems like a consensus. Doesn't mean the consensus is right, but it is a consensus. Seriously, you have to admit that other than on this MB, the vast majority of pundits whether right or wrong in their judgment have Bush going to the Texans.


thats not what i was saying....he said that bush was the consensus best player in this draft...im not debating that 90ish percent of the mocks have him coming here...im just saying that open and shut declaring him the best prospect is wrong...im sure you can find people who question his durability, size, etc... so thats where my arguement was coming from

infantrycak
02-24-2006, 07:49 PM
thats not what i was saying....he said that bush was the consensus best player in this draft...im not debating that 90ish percent of the mocks have him coming here...im just saying that open and shut declaring him the best prospect is wrong...im sure you can find people who question his durability, size, etc... so thats where my arguement was coming from

Well, slightly different but same result. Even on top prospect lists rather than mocks, other than this MB the majority of sites I have seen list Bush as the best prospect. Once again, that doesn't mean he actually is, but right now it seems to me Bush is the consensus #1 prospect.

Bubbajwp
02-25-2006, 01:14 AM
Well, slightly different but same result. Even on top prospect lists rather than mocks, other than this MB the majority of sites I have seen list Bush as the best prospect. Once again, that doesn't mean he actually is, but right now it seems to me Bush is the consensus #1 prospect.
Every were except Texas.

Koolbrz
02-25-2006, 02:18 AM
But big ole solid Reggie Bush doesn't have to worry about this right??
I know he's fast, and most teams don't have someone who can catch him from behind..... but he'll start every play infront of the defense, and he'll have to find his way around them.


I don't think RB is going to actually try and drag 3 guys around the field, besides if we can upgrade our o-line he should be able to get into the secondary. Maybe not all the time, but he will get into the secondary and when he does look out. Oh, by the way, Bush is only 5'11'' and should be able to get alot lower than VY before getting hit.