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Oilers/Texans
02-20-2006, 04:38 PM
Would there still be the lovefest for Vince Young if he had gone to OU or USC or any other college other than Texas?

SheTexan
02-20-2006, 04:44 PM
Would there still be the lovefest for Vince Young if he had gone to OU or USC or any other college other than Texas?

Easy answer! NO!!!!!!

TexanAddict
02-20-2006, 04:45 PM
Would there still be the lovefest for Vince Young if he had gone to OU or USC or any other college other than Texas?

No.

ThaShark316
02-20-2006, 04:47 PM
It wouldn't be as strong...but people would still lobby for him because he's from here.

The answer is NOT no, and anyone that says so it's sadly mistaken.

gwallaia
02-20-2006, 04:55 PM
Aahh Haaa! But what if Vince Young was an accountant from Houston? Would there be such a fuss over him?

axman40
02-20-2006, 04:58 PM
To me it does not matter the school , I would take VY #1 !

:stirpot:

AustinJB
02-20-2006, 05:20 PM
Would there still be the lovefest for Vince Young if he had gone to OU or USC or any other college other than Texas?

The answer is not "NO." There probably wouldn't be as MUCH hype in this area, but not for reasons that you think.

It's simple. If he wasn't playing his college ball only three hours from his hometown, not as many people from this area would have seen him play as much as they did (of course USC, Miami, etc are always on no matter where you are.)

I think that most of the VY advocates are obviously those that have seen him play most of his games (at least more than the Rose Bowl.) For the most part, the people that do not want VY are people that have not seen him play on a regular basis.

Of course a guy that is a hometown and state hero, just won the National Championship at a college three hours down the road, and his hometown holds the #1 pick in the draft...is going to get a lot of attention. But if the guy just did the same thing for OU (instead of Texas) against USC, it would still mean a lot b/c it would still upgrade a position where many think is a definite need. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.:cool:

DomDavis
02-20-2006, 05:26 PM
Vince could be from New York City and the starting quarterback for USC, and I'd still want to pick him. This is about his play on the football field. Period.

StarStruck
02-20-2006, 05:29 PM
For me, yes. Based on what I saw when he was in high school, I would have been watching regardless of where he attended college, as with Adrian Peterson.

dtran04
02-20-2006, 05:38 PM
Of course not. If Reggie and Vince switched hometowns and schools, there is no doubt there would be a huge following of Reggie fans. That's just how it is.

Fiddy
02-20-2006, 05:57 PM
But with the new team does VY have the same supporting cast??? If not, is it worse or better??? Same type of coaching??? A coach that didnt try to change him??? Same chance to show his big game skills???

Too many ifs...

swtbound07
02-20-2006, 06:11 PM
shrugs...i think im an exception to the vince young because he is from texas thing, and here is why......I love watching mike vick play football...to me the mobile quarterback is the most exciting player in football...if you have a talented one, i wouldnt care if he played in BF, Iowa. I wanted mike vick to be a texan.

ledzeppelin229
02-20-2006, 06:13 PM
For me, yes. Based on what I saw when he was in high school, I would have been watching regardless of where he attended college, as with Adrian Peterson.

But what if he went to HS in Philadelphia, or Greenville Alabama, or Omaha Nebraska? The point of this argument is solely about his college career.

Double Barrel
02-20-2006, 06:16 PM
Vince Young was the QB of a national champion, and the way they won that game was a direct result of his leadership and ability. He's been on the national stage for a couple of seasons, so people know who he is just like they know who Reggie Bush is, too.

yeah, I think people would still want him regardless of where he played if it was the same series of events (ie. Heisman nominated, winning a championship) but different school.

The dude has just got amazing upside and potential. I'm not even a Young homer/hater, but I'm amazed at his raw ability and obvious leadership traits. I'd be the first to jump on his bandwagon if he was drafted by the Texans, but it ain't gonna' happen.

infantrycak
02-20-2006, 06:20 PM
The answer is not "NO." There probably wouldn't be as MUCH hype in this area, but not for reasons that you think.

It's simple. If he wasn't playing his college ball only three hours from his hometown, not as many people from this area would have seen him play as much as they did (of course USC, Miami, etc are always on no matter where you are.)

I think that most of the VY advocates are obviously those that have seen him play most of his games (at least more than the Rose Bowl.) For the most part, the people that do not want VY are people that have not seen him play on a regular basis.

Of course a guy that is a hometown and state hero, just won the National Championship at a college three hours down the road, and his hometown holds the #1 pick in the draft...is going to get a lot of attention. But if the guy just did the same thing for OU (instead of Texas) against USC, it would still mean a lot b/c it would still upgrade a position where many think is a definite need. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.:cool:

That's a cute rationale and all, but it is still a rationale and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. VY absolutely deserves to be in the discussion of options for the Texans. He is the classic more raw with a higher upside prospect to contrast to Leinart. 99% of the national media/reporting scouting/draftniks have Leinart ranked as the #1 QB prospect, often with exactly that kind of caveat for Young--possibly higher upside, but raw and not as NFL ready. If folks around here weren't playing home town favorites and the QB was actually as bad as portrayed, there would at least be a legitimate debate on Leinart vs. Young. There isn't. There isn't a single MB poster who agrees with the vast majority of non-Houstonians and argues for Leinart. Is there a legitimate debate over who should be the #1 QB--absolutely. There isn't any debate in Houston--that spells homering for VY and to support that running down DC.

Nighthawk
02-20-2006, 06:20 PM
Would there still be the lovefest for Vince Young if he had gone to OU or USC or any other college other than Texas?

This is the stupidest question, but I'm glad it's been asked again.

NOBODY wants Vince Young because he went to UT. The people who want VY want him because they see in him a once in a lifetime talent, a QB who could actually LEAD THIS TEAM for the next decade or more, and who would probably bring championships with him. In other words, a VERY SPECIAL PLAYER, sort of like Big Ben, Favre, and Cunningham all wrapped up into a single player.

Wanting him has ZERO to do with UT.

infantrycak
02-20-2006, 06:23 PM
This is the stupidest question, but I'm glad it's been asked again.

NOBODY wants Vince Young because he went to UT. The people who want VY want him because they see in him a once in a lifetime talent, a QB who could actually LEAD THIS TEAM for the next decade or more, and who would probably bring championships with him. In other words, a VERY SPECIAL PLAYER, sort of like Big Ben, Favre, and Cunningham all wrapped up into a single player.

Wanting him has ZERO to do with UT.

That is complete and utter BS or there would be a debate over who to take Leinart vs. Young. Only in Houston is there not a debate. Matter of fact, only in Houston is Young treated like the consensus #1.

Bubbajwp
02-20-2006, 06:41 PM
This is the stupidest question, but I'm glad it's been asked again.

NOBODY wants Vince Young because he went to UT. The people who want VY want him because they see in him a once in a lifetime talent, a QB who could actually LEAD THIS TEAM for the next decade or more, and who would probably bring championships with him. In other words, a VERY SPECIAL PLAYER, sort of like Big Ben, Favre, and Cunningham all wrapped up into a single player.

Wanting him has ZERO to do with UT.
Speak for yourself.Thats kinda funny considering 90% of the people who want us to draft young are longhorn fans.

To me it does not matter the school , I would take VY #1 !

:stirpot:
Funny his location says Austin

The answer is not "NO." There probably wouldn't be as MUCH hype in this area, but not for reasons that you think.

It's simple. If he wasn't playing his college ball only three hours from his hometown, not as many people from this area would have seen him play as much as they did (of course USC, Miami, etc are always on no matter where you are.)

I think that most of the VY advocates are obviously those that have seen him play most of his games (at least more than the Rose Bowl.) For the most part, the people that do not want VY are people that have not seen him play on a regular basis.

Of course a guy that is a hometown and state hero, just won the National Championship at a college three hours down the road, and his hometown holds the #1 pick in the draft...is going to get a lot of attention. But if the guy just did the same thing for OU (instead of Texas) against USC, it would still mean a lot b/c it would still upgrade a position where many think is a definite need. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.:cool:
Same for any other prospect. If they had a great college career and you watch a big majority of their games then you are going to want that player more than another player that has the same amount of talent. If Bush or Lienart grew up in houston and went to UT you would barely evern hear youngs name.

Bubbajwp
02-20-2006, 06:43 PM
I have to admit if the Texans are going to take a QB in the first round I would want VY and im not afraid to admit that him being from houston has alot to do with it.

powerfuldragon
02-20-2006, 06:53 PM
...maybe if he went to A&M

Htown34s
02-20-2006, 07:02 PM
I was thinking the question should have been "Would you support the Texans drafting VY if he went to A&M?"

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at amount of UT haters on this board, Houston probrobly is 30% Longhorn, 30% Aggies, and 40% other/indifferent.

Another thing is that Longhorns really don't give a flip about Aggies, 90% of the rivalry smack is from the Aggies. So I guess thats why the anti-VY people are more vocal of this board.

stevo3883
02-20-2006, 07:08 PM
exactly, there are aggies that will be against ever drafting any player from ut. period.

FirstTexansFan
02-20-2006, 07:25 PM
Yep, it's a conspiracy. See, our educations are better, thus making we Aggies the leaders of every conspiracy against you tsippers. I've personaly been at bonfire meetings with President Bush, where we discussed keeping Longhorns out of the NFL period, but those danged Red Raiders keep butting their heads in on the matter, and prevent us from following through. We've got the support of the Sooners, and if the blasted Huskers would get their act together, we'd have a big enough majority to keep Longhorns out of everything. I personally supported keeping the Astros from acquiring Roger Clemens, but somehow he slipped through. It's only a matter of time until we have Governor Perry <A&M graduate> ban the color orange being displayed anywhere in OUR state. Gig'em Suckers! ;)

axman40
02-20-2006, 07:32 PM
Yep, it's a conspiracy. See, our educations are better, thus making we Aggies the leaders of every conspiracy against you tsippers. I've personaly been at bonfire meetings with President Bush, where we discussed keeping Longhorns out of the NFL period, but those danged Red Raiders keep butting their heads in on the matter, and prevent us from following through. We've got the support of the Sooners, and if the blasted Huskers would get their act together, we'd have a big enough majority to keep Longhorns out of everything. I personally supported keeping the Astros from acquiring Roger Clemens, but somehow he slipped through. It's only a matter of time until we have Governor Perry <A&M graduate> ban the color orange being displayed anywhere in OUR state. Gig'em Suckers! ;)

U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, and Gov. Rick Perry. Hutchison was a cheerleader at Texas when the Longhorns won the 1963 title, while Perry was a yell leader at rival Texas A&M when he was a student.

Perry, who wore a burnt orange shirt beneath his blazer, told the crowd that even an Aggie like him could be proud of the championship.
"University of Texas went to California and beat the hell out of Southern California," Perry said. "Mack Brown, you are the man."

I guess the Guv did not get the memo.

:thumbup

Dr. Toro
02-20-2006, 07:50 PM
This question has been answered in every iteration. If he were from USC, A&M, not from Houston, if we were all in Des Moines, etc. The furor for drafting Young has been stoked by his hometown, UT status, and heroics (which shouldn't be discounted)... but it's grounded in his ability.

Bottom line is this, the guy that came immediately before him with a similar game was Michael Vick. He's 4-5 inches shorter, 40 pounds lighter, had a MUCH lower yards per carry average than Young in college, wasn't 1/2 the passer Young proved to be (but had a cannon and a little better quickness), and fell short in winning a national championship. A team traded up to get him. He's gone to 3 Pro Bowls, I believe, has been an effective late game playmaker, and his team has been consistently successful. He has not been a very good passer, but has got the job done in his own way. Ask Atlanta, he was worth the #1 pick.

So this business that Young isn't a legit #1 candidate is a little silly, given the Vick Experience. That doesn't mean Leinart or Bush aren't worthy candidates as well, it just means Young has some very appealing skills and rare playmaking ability at the QB position. Unless that team with the #1 pick has a top 5, elite QB, they would be foolish not to consider him. Nobody rose as fast to the top of the board as Young, and the picking apart, tearing down, second guessing business is expected... just keep perspective. He's a heck of a lot better right now than a lot of guys were when they were drafted #1.

stevo3883
02-20-2006, 08:54 PM
See, our educations are better ;)


stopped reading right there: second rate university, second rate education, second rate athletics, first rate cult

StarStruck
02-20-2006, 08:55 PM
But what if he went to HS in Philadelphia, or Greenville Alabama, or Omaha Nebraska? The point of this argument is solely about his college career.

If I had the same information and an opportunity to see him in the same role that I have, my answer remains. McNair was from Mississippi and I was very hype about him coming to the Oilers. Probably in the minority of seeing him during his college career given the college that he attended.

BlueThunder
02-20-2006, 09:03 PM
The school makes no difference.The reason I like Young don't have anything to do with the school where he was born or any of that.


The only reason I think Vince snould be draft is because thats the only player in the draft I wouldn't want to face twice a year.


The guy is going to be unstopable,if you ask me.

All you have to do is watch film.He's faster then lineman and LBers seldem get a solid hit on him and he's to big to arm tackle.If you bring a safety up he will find his TE and if you don't you can't contain him.He's like a big Micheal Vick.He's a big solid guy like T.O.

I know the Texans probablly won't draft him because its not the most econmical fit but your going to regreat it..You can write that down.

aj.
02-20-2006, 09:11 PM
Four years ago I fully bought into and was totally excited about the selection of a relatively unknown (in these parts) QB who went to school in a dusty oil town called Bakersfield and played college ball in a second tier conference. I was excited about him even though he wouldn't come close to sniffing a Rose Bowl, much less lead his team to victory in two of them, or furthermore, win a national championship...so yeah, I guess if Vince went to OU or Georgia, or Purdue, or Arizona St., or Fresno, and he did what he did, I would probably have gotten on his bandwagon regardless.

I may be wrong but I see a new and improved version of Steve McNair in Vince. I'm not a Longhorns fan but I've watched football for a while and I sense greatness in this one.

AustinJB
02-20-2006, 11:18 PM
That's a cute rationale and all, but it is still a rationale and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. VY absolutely deserves to be in the discussion of options for the Texans. He is the classic more raw with a higher upside prospect to contrast to Leinart. 99% of the national media/reporting scouting/draftniks have Leinart ranked as the #1 QB prospect, often with exactly that kind of caveat for Young--possibly higher upside, but raw and not as NFL ready. If folks around here weren't playing home town favorites and the QB was actually as bad as portrayed, there would at least be a legitimate debate on Leinart vs. Young. There isn't. There isn't a single MB poster who agrees with the vast majority of non-Houstonians and argues for Leinart. Is there a legitimate debate over who should be the #1 QB--absolutely. There isn't any debate in Houston--that spells homering for VY and to support that running down DC.

Whatever....you obviously think that Carr will be a great QB and Leinart will be better than VY....that's great! I don't.

I don't have faith in Carr anymore (hope he proves me wrong *crossing fingers*) and I'm not overly impressed w/ Leinart. To me, Leinart is a slower version of Carr....and I see what that's like and have no interest in that whatsoever. In your cute little logic above, you failed to take this possibility into account. So...yes, I would rather have VY b/c I believe he brings more ability to the position and will be a great NFL quarterback IMO. And that is why I'm not debating whether we should take Leinart or VY...I clearly think VY has more potential.

That would be the same no matter where he went to school. But as I tried to originally explain, yes...his playing at a local university plays a role b/c you have more in-depth game analysis. Isn't that one of the advantages for local NFL teams...maybe they get to see more of a certain player than scouts/fans from across the country do. Acting like that is a negative and downing people for thinking that VY is great when they have come to that conclusion after personally seem him play, is ridiculous IMO.:ok:

swtbound07
02-20-2006, 11:34 PM
Here is why there is no Young vs. Leinart debate. I've raised this point several times. Its not a question of nfl ready vs. not nfl ready. Most reasonable people would admit that leinart is more polished at this stage of his career. Thats not really a point for debate. What most reasonable people would also admit that leinart is primarily a pocket passer. Other facts i would like to call to discussion.

1) David Carr gets sacked an exorbitant amount of times.
2) David Carr is primarily a pocket passer
3) The front office has failed over the entire course of franchise history to adequately address the o-line (obviously, see point #1)
4) It would be hard for a pocket passer to have much success here if the o-line wasnt completely revamped
5) Vince Young has a good deal of mobility as a quarterback.
6) Matt Leinart is not as mobile as vince young.
7) Matt Leinart brings no particular skill set to the table that is particularly distinguishable as an upgrade from david carr. (excepting of course, 4 less years of wear and tear)

All these points lead me to the conclusion that IF we were to draft a quarterback, leinart couldnt even be in serious consideration.

thetexanator
02-20-2006, 11:35 PM
if vince young wasnt a longhorn, he would have been a miami hurricane and would have won more than just one national championship. there would have been no brock berlin and he would be what the hurricanes have lacked these last 4 years, a good qb.

Napa Auto Parts
02-20-2006, 11:39 PM
I dont Care where VY went to school hell im not even from texas im from california im just ready for a change im tired of mediocre play from our field general i could have kitna hell even jesse palmer the bachelor anyone else someone with some fire.:ok:

AustinJB
02-20-2006, 11:40 PM
Funny his location says Austin


??!!

So? What does that have to do w/ it?

I guess that is supposed to imply that I'm a Homer and will support anything UT...right? I do live in Austin and am a UT fan, but that is not the only reason I advocate VY for the Texans.

I didn't then, and would never advocate Chris Simms for our team (I'd rather have Carr and that is saying a mouthful.) I think David Thomas is a good TE, but I'd rather the Texans pick up Leonard Pope or even Joe Klopfenstein. I think C.Griffin is a good CB and Huff is a good FS, but I'd still rather take Jonathan Joseph or Ko Simpson b/c I believe they'd be a better fit for the team. Point is...I like VY b/c I think he'd be better for the team than Carr, or Leinart for that matter....not b/c I'm a Homer.:ok:

BTW, just b/c someone lives in another city doesn't meant that they aren't Texan fans. In fact, I think Mr. McNair would love to hear of more fans that live outside the city limits. Your logic is faulty at best. Using your logic, I guess the fans in Houston that live closer to the stadium are greater fans than those that live farther away...right?:rolleyes:

Just remember, there are those of us that grew up in Houston, supporting all Houston sports teams that now live in other cities. We still follow the team just as much as you do and sometimes maybe more. We still pay for tickets to go to the games every year. We still have opinions on what we feel is best for the team.:cool:

Napa Auto Parts
02-20-2006, 11:46 PM
so to answer the question regarding to vince it doesnt matter to me where he played his college ball as long as it wasnt fresno state.:stirpot:

kastofsna
02-21-2006, 12:02 AM
if he wasn't on a team as talented as texas they wouldn't have gone too far and no one would care about him

Nighthawk
02-21-2006, 12:36 AM
All you have to do is watch film.He's faster then lineman and LBers seldem get a solid hit on him and he's to big to arm tackle.If you bring a safety up he will find his TE and if you don't you can't contain him.He's like a big Micheal Vick.He's a big solid guy like T.O.

Amen to that. Give them eyes so that they might see.

tulexan
02-21-2006, 12:57 AM
All you have to do is watch film.He's faster then lineman and LBers seldem get a solid hit on him and he's to big to arm tackle.If you bring a safety up he will find his TE and if you don't you can't contain him.He's like a big Micheal Vick.He's a big solid guy like T.O.


Against NCAA talent, yes you are right, but in the NFL he is not going to be able to rely strictly on his athleticism. He will be going up against DEs and LBs who can chase him down and tackle him. Vick has tried this and has had mixed results. Vick is also faster and more elusive than Young. Yes, Vick has been successful when he is healthy, but that is the catch, he hasn't been healthy because he is consistently taking big hits because he runs so much. All scrambling QB's must make the move from being a running QB to a pocket QB or they will have a short career and limited success. Look at Steve McNair, Daunte Culpepper, Donovan McNabb, and even Randall Cunningham. Cunningham had his most successful year when he had one of his lowest rushing totals.

We all know that Vince can run. He will have some success running the ball, but not as much as Michael Vick. If you are expecting him to put up 1000 yard rushing seasons then you are going to be waiting a long time because it isn't going to happen. Vick was able to get close because he has unbelievable speed that only few in the league can match. He will likely never get as close as he did again because he is slowing down each year and I predict that he will eventually become more of a pocket passer who has rushing abilities. Vince will probably get 600 or 700 yards rushing on a good year and I imagine that will probably be early in his career as well. He will realize that he can't keep on running so much if he wants to have a long career, so in the mid to late parts of his career he will probably average around 400 to 500 yards rushing and then 300 to 400 yards respectively. He is about as fast as McNabb, but McNabb has more muscle on him. Vince may be taller, but McNabb is bigger.

swtbound07
02-21-2006, 01:12 AM
Against NCAA talent, yes you are right, but in the NFL he is not going to be able to rely strictly on his athleticism. He will be going up against DEs and LBs who can chase him down and tackle him. Vick has tried this and has had mixed results. Vick is also faster and more elusive than Young. Yes, Vick has been successful when he is healthy, but that is the catch, he hasn't been healthy because he is consistently taking big hits because he runs so much. All scrambling QB's must make the move from being a running QB to a pocket QB or they will have a short career and limited success. Look at Steve McNair, Daunte Culpepper, Donovan McNabb, and even Randall Cunningham. Cunningham had his most successful year when he had one of his lowest rushing totals.

We all know that Vince can run. He will have some success running the ball, but not as much as Michael Vick. If you are expecting him to put up 1000 yard rushing seasons then you are going to be waiting a long time because it isn't going to happen. Vick was able to get close because he has unbelievable speed that only few in the league can match. He will likely never get as close as he did again because he is slowing down each year and I predict that he will eventually become more of a pocket passer who has rushing abilities. Vince will probably get 600 or 700 yards rushing on a good year and I imagine that will probably be early in his career as well. He will realize that he can't keep on running so much if he wants to have a long career, so in the mid to late parts of his career he will probably average around 400 to 500 yards rushing and then 300 to 400 yards respectively. He is about as fast as McNabb, but McNabb has more muscle on him. Vince may be taller, but McNabb is bigger.

You say michael vick is oft injured. Yes, but you have to remember, michael vick is much much smaller than vince young. Vince Young is built a lot more durably than a michael vick, so the traditional arguement about a mobile qb having to become a pocket qb for health reasons might not apply here. You also say vick has had mixed results.....well, he has gotten to the nfc championship game, which to me would generally be an indicator of success. He has 3 pro bowls, which some could argue is indicative of success. He also has one of the highest winning percentages of any starter in the nfl during his career....also an indicator of success to me. He wins games, he takes his team on his back, goes deep into the playoffs....so what cant he do? Nope, he doesnt put up the stats you would like. However, peyton is regarded on this board as the best qb in the nfl, and he has gotten only as far in the playoffs as vick. All you can do in football is win. If vince rushes for 75, throws for 148, and has 1 td, and we win....what do you care how we got there? would you prefer david carr throwing for 350 and us losing?

Wharton
02-21-2006, 01:17 AM
I've lived in Houston for about six years now and I have never understood how the rest of the nation seems to overlook this cities accomplishments. For instance, Houston was passed over for New York City by the Olympics. When the decision came from the Olympic Committee, Houston had a much better package to offer with a brand new football stadium, basketball stadium along with the old Astrodome (Renovated), and facilities at Rice. Personally, I thought the choice was obvious, but apparently I was wrong. Houston lost out to New York, which eventually lost out to London.
http://www.houstontx.gov/hr/savvypages/archives/Fall02/fall02_olympics.htm

Another good example is the Houston Texans. Two cities were competing for an NFL franchise at the time - Houston and LA. Houston had a solid owner and a stadium deal in place. LA had neither. Houston is a football town, La is not. Bob had to put up an extra $150 to $200 million to get the NFL to come to Houston. LA is still on the NFL most wanted list but all the people I know in LA could careless about football and the NFL.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/1999/1005/98576.html

I find it funny that Houston people would even consider drafting anyone other then Vince Young. Vince is allot like Houston in that people discount what he did for Texas last season. Many of the mock drafts I've seen have 5 USC players going in the first round (Bush, Leinart, White, Justice, Bing), while Texas is represented by 2 players (Young, Huff). Also, most of these mock drafts project Bush no. 1, Leinart no. 2, and Young no. 3. Its obvious USC was loaded with talent, but the Longhorns still won the national championship, mostly due to the play of one man, Vince Young. The City of Houston doesn't get any respect, and apparently, neither does their native sons.
http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sub/mockdraft.html

Do I want Vince Young to play for the Texans because he played for UT and because he's from Houston? Yep, that's one reason. Another reason is because he lead an undermanned, under coached team to the national championship! People follow leaders who have passion and desire. Vince has told anyone who will listen that he wants to play for the Texans. I think we should give him that chance.

Aggie Class of '96
:fans:

tulexan
02-21-2006, 01:39 AM
How am I wrong about Vick having mixed results?

First season as a starter = Playoffs
Second season as a starter = Injured for most of season and no playoffs
Third season as a starter = NFC Championship game
Fourth season as a starter = Injured and no playoffs

The only consistency that I see is inconsistency.

Next year he will probably make the playoffs and the year after that he will miss them again. Although, I believe the NFC South is going to be pretty good next year with the rise of the Panthers and the Bucs, so he might have trouble returning to the playoffs next year.

I realize that Vick is smaller than Young, but McNair has cut down his
running, McNabb has cut down his running, Culpepper has cut down his running, and all of those guys are of similar build to Vince Young. A few things happen to most scrambling QB's. They get slower because of age and getting hit, and they get a better understanding of the game and realize that they need to become pocket passers. Vince will be no different. He will have a few good rushing years early in his career and the numbers will gradually go down as his career goes on and his passing numbers should go up as he adapts to the NFL game. Rushing and Passing yards will have an inverse relationship.

tulexan
02-21-2006, 01:42 AM
Its obvious USC was loaded with talent, but the Longhorns still won the national championship, mostly due to the play of one man, Vince Young.


I must have missed Vince Young tackling LenDale White late in the fourth quarter on fourth down.

Listen, Vince is a great player, but give credit to the rest of the team. Texas had one of the best defenses, if not the best, in the NCAA last season.

kbourda
02-21-2006, 01:44 AM
99% of the national media/reporting scouting/draftniks have Leinart ranked as the #1 QB prospect, often with exactly that kind of caveat for Young--possibly higher upside, but raw and not as NFL ready.

So I guess you're saying that Matt Leinart is going to go to any team and make them an instant winner because he is "NFL Ready"? I'm not trying to be difficult but when has a college QB been "NFL Ready" coming out of college? Hell, we have a few QB's right now who still aren't (and that's another conversation) "NFL Ready". Really who are we kidding? What's the point of knocking VY? He is going to be who he is. Despite all of his flaws. Despite him not being the best prospect. Despite him not being "NFL Ready" (whatever that is). He's going to be a winner. By any means necessary.

kbourda
02-21-2006, 01:49 AM
How am I wrong about Vick having mixed results?

First season as a starter = Playoffs
Second season as a starter = Injured for most of season and no playoffs
Third season as a starter = NFC Championship game
Fourth season as a starter = Injured and no playoffs

The only consistency that I see is inconsistency.

Next year he will probably make the playoffs and the year after that he will miss them again. Although, I believe the NFC South is going to be pretty good next year with the rise of the Panthers and the Bucs, so he might have trouble returning to the playoffs next year.

I realize that Vick is smaller than Young, but McNair has cut down his
running, McNabb has cut down his running, Culpepper has cut down his running, and all of those guys are of similar build to Vince Young. A few things happen to most scrambling QB's. They get slower because of age and getting hit, and they get a better understanding of the game and realize that they need to become pocket passers. Vince will be no different. He will have a few good rushing years early in his career and the numbers will gradually go down as his career goes on and his passing numbers should go up as he adapts to the NFL game. Rushing and Passing yards will have an inverse relationship.

Wow, I guess going to the playoffs 2 out of 4 years is so terrible.

swtbound07
02-21-2006, 01:50 AM
Wow, I guess going to the playoffs 2 out of 4 years is so terrible.


No...but it apparently is inconsistent.....he prefers the david carr method....stay in the pocket, reach playoffs 0 of 4 years.

kbourda
02-21-2006, 01:51 AM
I must have missed Vince Young tackling LenDale White late in the fourth quarter on fourth down.

Listen, Vince is a great player, but give credit to the rest of the team. Texas had one of the best defenses, if not the best, in the NCAA last season.

Well you must have missed that the two heisman trophy winners got the ball back. They had their chance too. Actually, they had two chances plus a two touchdown lead with 6 minutes to go. And by the way, a point no one seems to mention, that was a home game for USC.

Napa Auto Parts
02-21-2006, 03:00 AM
No...but it apparently is inconsistent.....he prefers the david carr method....stay in the pocket, reach playoffs 0 of 4 years.




hahahaha man your killing me:rofl:

infantrycak
02-21-2006, 06:50 AM
So I guess you're saying that Matt Leinart is going to go to any team and make them an instant winner because he is "NFL Ready"? I'm not trying to be difficult but when has a college QB been "NFL Ready" coming out of college? Hell, we have a few QB's right now who still aren't (and that's another conversation) "NFL Ready". Really who are we kidding? What's the point of knocking VY? He is going to be who he is. Despite all of his flaws. Despite him not being the best prospect. Despite him not being "NFL Ready" (whatever that is). He's going to be a winner. By any means necessary.

People really need to read things for what they say and stop with the imagined slights to VY, etc. Look at the part of my post you quoted--it says 99% of scouts/media describe VY as not as NFL ready as Leinart. That isn't the same as Leinart is 100% NFL ready now. Frankly that is a pretty obvious conclusion due to the fact that Leinart has a year more experience, has been operating under center more and has been operating in a more pro-style offense. Doesn't mean Leinart will ultimately be better or VY will not be a hall of famer--just stick with what it says--Leinart should be more NFL ready.

The other thing folks (AutinJB) can't seem to wrap their arms around is another simple conclusion.

National folks--99% Leinart #1, VY #2
Houston folks--100% VY #1, Leinart who?

On an individual basis there are certainly reasons to prefer VY in a debate, but c'mon--as a group 100% of Houstonians are not in some unbiased way being smarter than a nation full of scouts. It's a close call and the collective thumb is coming down on the local guys' side. That's not a bad thing and between the two I would pick VY as well, but it is pretty silly to deny the phenomena.

Vinny
02-21-2006, 08:27 AM
Wow, I guess going to the playoffs 2 out of 4 years is so terrible.you miss his message. If it's about David Carr it's 100% team....no way it's David Carr's fault. If the player is Young or Vick then its 100% the Quarterbacks fault for not going to the playoffs 4 of 4 years. It was the team that took the Falcons to the playoffs in those two years...Vick screwed up the other two.:ok:

Wharton
02-21-2006, 09:45 AM
I must have missed Vince Young tackling LenDale White late in the fourth quarter on fourth down.

Listen, Vince is a great player, but give credit to the rest of the team. Texas had one of the best defenses, if not the best, in the NCAA last season.
I have seen this comment in the past and have ignored it but not this time.

To discount Vince Young’s performance with the above statement is just vulgar. USC had 595 yards of combined offense, were 8 of 14 on third down conversion and had two turnovers. At best, the Texas defense had an average game. Yes, the defense stopped them when they had to, but without Young’s performance, the defense would have never gotten the opportunity.

Vince Young accounted for 463 of 583 yards (200 rushing, 283 receiving). The second leading rusher on Texas had 45 yards. The ball was distributed to seven different receivers with the best performance coming from Thomas at 88 yards, a solid game, but nothing spectacular.

I understand this is a team game, but I cannot think of any other quarterback who could have lead Texas to a victory in the Rose Bowl. With Carr at QB, would Texas have even made it to the Rose Bowl? Would Texas have won the Rose Bowl if David Carr was their quarterback? I think the answer is no to both questions.

kbourda
02-21-2006, 09:50 AM
you miss his message. If it's about David Carr it's 100% team....no way it's David Carr's fault. If the player is Young or Vick then its 100% the Quarterbacks fault for not going to the playoffs 4 of 4 years. It was the team that took the Falcons to the playoffs in those two years...Vick screwed up the other two.:ok:

Love the response. I see the light now. Thanks.

kbourda
02-21-2006, 10:10 AM
People really need to read things for what they say and stop with the imagined slights to VY, etc. Look at the part of my post you quoted--it says 99% of scouts/media describe VY as not as NFL ready as Leinart. That isn't the same as Leinart is 100% NFL ready now. Frankly that is a pretty obvious conclusion due to the fact that Leinart has a year more experience, has been operating under center more and has been operating in a more pro-style offense. Doesn't mean Leinart will ultimately be better or VY will not be a hall of famer--just stick with what it says--Leinart should be more NFL ready.

The other thing folks (AutinJB) can't seem to wrap their arms around is another simple conclusion.

National folks--99% Leinart #1, VY #2
Houston folks--100% VY #1, Leinart who?

On an individual basis there are certainly reasons to prefer VY in a debate, but c'mon--as a group 100% of Houstonians are not in some unbiased way being smarter than a nation full of scouts. It's a close call and the collective thumb is coming down on the local guys' side. That's not a bad thing and between the two I would pick VY as well, but it is pretty silly to deny the phenomena.

"National Folks" said Texas had no chance to win due to the great team that USC had. I believe that was most of the country too, right? "National Folks" said VY would have a terrible game too, right? "National Folks" gave (that's right I said it gave) Bush the Heisman based on one game (500 yard effort), right? "National Folks" had they been given the opportunity would have recalled their Heisman vote, book it. "National Folks" said VY couldn't pass and win at Ohio State, right?

I could go on and on and you and most posters would probably miss the entire point about VY. The point is this the guy is a gamer. He see a challenge (on and off the field) and rises to the occasion. That is stuff you can't teach. Yeah, he's a born Houstonian but that has nothing to do with it. Will the Texans draft him? No way in Hell. But that might be good for him. If you or anyone reading this has a chance. Look at the Heisman Trophy Presentation this past year with Young, Bush, and Leinart there. I want any of you to look at his face when they gave his Heisman to Bush. I knew right then and there that he was going to will the team to a Rose Bowl victory. Just imagine what he'll do when his home city selects the guy he lost the Heisman to.

Htown34s
02-21-2006, 10:15 AM
Nice post Wharton.

VY has tremendous skills and will be a star in the NFL. But besides his UT connection, Texan fans should want him because he is a huge proponent of the city of Houston. From what he has said about the city multiple times on national TV in the last month, I'd say he is currently its biggest ambassador.

Even if you don't want to draft a QB, VY does not deserve all of the flack he has gotten on this board.

TheOgre
02-21-2006, 10:26 AM
If Young wasn't a Longhorn, he would still be big on the list because he is from Houston. Now if you were asking if he wasn't from Texas and didn't play for Texas, that is a different question.

infantrycak
02-21-2006, 10:55 AM
"National Folks" said Texas had no chance to win due to the great team that USC had. I believe that was most of the country too, right? "National Folks" said VY would have a terrible game too, right? "National Folks" gave (that's right I said it gave) Bush the Heisman based on one game (500 yard effort), right? "National Folks" had they been given the opportunity would have recalled their Heisman vote, book it. "National Folks" said VY couldn't pass and win at Ohio State, right?

Nice completely unrealistic recap. USC had a one TD betting line on what was basically a home game and plenty (not a majority, but a significant number) were predicting UT to win. Everyone was expecting a great game rather than the disrespect to UT you imply. Didn't hear a single person predict a horrible Rose Bowl for VY--maybe someone did, but it certainly was not anything like a consensus. Even assuming your little Heisman rant was correct, it omits the fact from this discussion that the other QB in question actually won the Heisman already so it isn't like winning the Heisman would distinguish VY from Leinart. You're way off on the Ohio St. game since Ohio St. wasn't even favored at home for that game and VY was plainly the pony UT was going to ride to victory.

I could go on and on and you and most posters would probably miss the entire point about VY. The point is this the guy is a gamer.

No, haven't missed that point at all--VY is a gamer, got it, not an issue. Winner who looks like a fantastic QB candidate for the NFL--as aj said, possibly an improved McNair. That's great, but it doesn't change the fact that there is another QB prospect out there who has won a national championship (some would say two), has a Heisman, and is a proven winner as well and if there wasn't a Houston/Texas/UT bias going on he would at least be in the discussion. Since this can't seem to be made clear enough--having a bias for a Houston/Texas/UT guy where the candidates are not clearly unequal is just fine (and using it as a tiebreaker takes nothing, zilch, nada away from VY), but it is absurd to deny its existence.

Actually never mind--I have changed my opinion. VY is clearly head and shoulders a better candidate than Leinart and the only reason anyone in the rest of the country rates Leinart higher is because of a nationwide conspiracy against Texas out of a jealousy against everything Texan.

swtbound07
02-21-2006, 11:06 AM
Nice completely unrealistic recap. USC had a one TD betting line on what was basically a home game and plenty (not a majority, but a significant number) were predicting UT to win. Everyone was expecting a great game rather than the disrespect to UT you imply. Didn't hear a single person predict a horrible Rose Bowl for VY--maybe someone did, but it certainly was not anything like a consensus. Even assuming your little Heisman rant was correct, it omits the fact from this discussion that the other QB in question actually won the Heisman already so it isn't like winning the Heisman would distinguish VY from Leinart. You're way off on the Ohio St. game since Ohio St. wasn't even favored at home for that game and VY was plainly the pony UT was going to ride to victory.



No, haven't missed that point at all--VY is a gamer, got it, not an issue. Winner who looks like a fantastic QB candidate for the NFL--as aj said, possibly an improved McNair. That's great, but it doesn't change the fact that there is another QB prospect out there who has one a national championship (some would say two), has a Heisman, and is a proven winner as well and if there wasn't a Houston/Texas/UT bias going on he would at least be in the discussion. Since this can't seem to be made clear enough--having a bias for a Houston/Texas/UT guy where the candidates are not clearly unequal is just fine (and using it as a tiebreaker takes nothing, zilch, nada away from VY), but it is absurd to deny its existence.


I hate to be contrary, but from what i remember, I was sickened by the coverage on MOST (i wont say all, but 90 percent) of the major networks....where does USC rank among all time dynastys, could 2005 USC beat 01 miami, should texas even bother to show up, how will texas stop reggie bush....i could go on and on, but dont try to tell me that plenty of people were picking texas...most people were saying close game, but USC takes it down handily. I've made this point about why matt leinart isnt in the discussion, and i will make it again. Matt Leinart has nothing in his skill set that is noticeably better or different then david carr. Its a lateral move. Your trying to plug another pocket passer into a team that cant make a pocket. Like i said earlier, personally im a fan of the mobile quarterback, and if leinart was the vick equivalent i would want him...i dont do the hometown thing...if you recall, last year i wanted carlos rogers over DJ.

jerek
02-21-2006, 11:15 AM
Nice completely unrealistic recap. USC had a one TD betting line on what was basically a home game and plenty (not a majority, but a significant number) were predicting UT to win. Everyone was expecting a great game rather than the disrespect to UT you imply. Didn't hear a single person predict a horrible Rose Bowl for VY--maybe someone did, but it certainly was not anything like a consensus. Even assuming your little Heisman rant was correct, it omits the fact from this discussion that the other QB in question actually won the Heisman already so it isn't like winning the Heisman would distinguish VY from Leinart. You're way off on the Ohio St. game since Ohio St. wasn't even favored at home for that game and VY was plainly the pony UT was going to ride to victory.

No, haven't missed that point at all--VY is a gamer, got it, not an issue. Winner who looks like a fantastic QB candidate for the NFL--as aj said, possibly an improved McNair. That's great, but it doesn't change the fact that there is another QB prospect out there who has one a national championship (some would say two), has a Heisman, and is a proven winner as well and if there wasn't a Houston/Texas/UT bias going on he would at least be in the discussion. Since this can't seem to be made clear enough--having a bias for a Houston/Texas/UT guy where the candidates are not clearly unequal is just fine (and using it as a tiebreaker takes nothing, zilch, nada away from VY), but it is absurd to deny its existence.

Actually never mind--I have changed my opinion. VY is clearly head and shoulders a better candidate than Leinart and the only reason anyone in the rest of the country rates Leinart higher is because of a nationwide conspiracy against Texas out of a jealousy against everything Texan.

Now you're catching on :hmmm:

Seriously, though. As if Leinart were the next Alex Smith - a winner by default because the real competition never showed up. At least guys like Big B (in another thread) are finally owning up to this being about dislike for Carr/UT homerism more than a true, pure search for the right quarterback of this team. If you think Carr sucks, so be it. If you think Young really is hands down the best quarterback for this team, so be it. But don't parrot on as if you've weighed all of the options and evaluated the big picture if/when you haven't.

Huge
02-21-2006, 11:36 AM
Lovefest? No.

Tremendous respect for his ability? Yes.

Example - See Adrian Peterson, Roy Williams, Mark Clayton, etc.

infantrycak
02-21-2006, 11:39 AM
I hate to be contrary, but from what i remember, I was sickened by the coverage on MOST (i wont say all, but 90 percent) of the major networks....where does USC rank among all time dynastys, could 2005 USC beat 01 miami, should texas even bother to show up, how will texas stop reggie bush....i could go on and on, but dont try to tell me that plenty of people were picking texas...most people were saying close game, but USC takes it down handily.

Last point on this as there is no point arguing over what is plenty--was the attention given to USC really disrespect to UT at all much less specifically to VY? Seems to me that is an overly sensitive position. USC was arguably going for their 3rd straight national championship. There was similar hype when the Patriots were going for 3 out of 4 SB's. For the record, the last thing I want to do is plug USC. As a Berkeley grad, the University for Spoiled Children is 2nd only to the largest Taco Bell stand in the world, otherwise known as Stanford, as a team I like to see go down in flames.

Matt Leinart has nothing in his skill set that is noticeably better or different then david carr. Its a lateral move.

If the skill set is defined as describing them as pocket passers then OK--otherwise there are tons of things said about Young as improvements over Carr which apply equally if not more strongly to Leinart. Young is a leader while Carr is not--Leinart is clearly a leader on his team. Young is a winner while Carr is not--Leinart has as good a winning % if not better than Young's. Other criticisms of Carr's intangibles also could favor Leinart as well--field vision, progressions, pocket presence, judgment, dedication, adaptability/picking up new O's and schemes, reading D's.

TheOgre
02-21-2006, 11:47 AM
As a Berkeley grad, the University for Spoiled Children is 2nd only to the largest Taco Bell stand in the world, otherwise known as Stanford, as a team I like to see go down in flames.

Wow I bet you get more pleasure out of the Stanford band game than anyone. I wouldn't doubt if that was your favorite Cal win of all time.

infantrycak
02-21-2006, 11:50 AM
Wow I bet you get more pleasure out of the Stanford band game than anyone. I wouldn't doubt if that was your favorite Cal win of all time.

That one and the game where the Stanford mascot said something which po'd the Cal Bear and the Bear decked the Tree and not in jest. Too bad he couldn't lift a leg on him.

tulexan
02-21-2006, 01:27 PM
Actually Vinny, you missed the point as well. I'm not saying that Vick is a bad player, I'm saying that he is good when healthy, but can't stay healthy because he runs so much. I don't care if Vince Young is 5 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, if you run that much you are going to get injured.

Vick's inability to stay healthy has resulted in inconsistent performance by the Falcons.

Texans_Chick
02-21-2006, 01:37 PM
If the skill set is defined as describing them as pocket passers then OK--otherwise there are tons of things said about Young as improvements over Carr which apply equally if not more strongly to Leinart. Young is a leader while Carr is not--Leinart is clearly a leader on his team. Young is a winner while Carr is not--Leinart has as good a winning % if not better than Young's. Other criticisms of Carr's intangibles also could favor Leinart as well--field vision, progressions, pocket presence, judgment, dedication, adaptability/picking up new O's and schemes, reading D's.


Personally, one reason why I do not think he is a good fit for Houston is no matter what your criticism of Carr is, everyone can agree he is durable and has OK wheels. I'm not sure that a pocket passer like Leinart with recent arm surgery and a knee brace on doesn't seem to be somebody that would be a good fit here.

infantrycak
02-21-2006, 01:44 PM
Personally, one reason why I do not think he is a good fit for Houston is no matter what your criticism of Carr is, everyone can agree he is durable and has OK wheels. I'm not sure that a pocket passer like Leinart with recent arm surgery and a knee brace on doesn't seem to be somebody that would be a good fit here.

I certainly see that point, but on the other hand I expect the new coaching staff to be planning on a future where the pass protection is at least NFL average which means the point is temporary at best--they darn well better not be planning on the problem continuing no matter who the QB is (according to some there is no pass protection problem and over 50% of the sacks are on DC so any QB will solve the problem). By the way--don't know it for a fact, but saw it stated somewhere that the knee brace is purely for protection and isn't a result of a past injury.

thunderkyss
02-21-2006, 02:47 PM
That's a cute rationale and all, but it is still a rationale and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. VY absolutely deserves to be in the discussion of options for the Texans. He is the classic more raw with a higher upside prospect to contrast to Leinart. 99% of the national media/reporting scouting/draftniks have Leinart ranked as the #1 QB prospect, often with exactly that kind of caveat for Young--possibly higher upside, but raw and not as NFL ready. If folks around here weren't playing home town favorites and the QB was actually as bad as portrayed, there would at least be a legitimate debate on Leinart vs. Young. There isn't. There isn't a single MB poster who agrees with the vast majority of non-Houstonians and argues for Leinart. Is there a legitimate debate over who should be the #1 QB--absolutely. There isn't any debate in Houston--that spells homering for VY and to support that running down DC.

there isn't a serious thread for D'angelo either....... even though he is a more traditional Runningback....... Does that mean the Reggis Bush guys are just following the hype, and the flash??

Everyone has their idea of what a Runningback is supposed to be........ everyone has their idea of what a Quarterback is supposed to be....... David Carr is not what many of us would like to see in a quarterback........ Vince is. It's that simple........ really.

thunderkyss
02-21-2006, 02:53 PM
I certainly see that point, but on the other hand I expect the new coaching staff to be planning on a future where the pass protection is at least NFL average which means the point is temporary at best--they darn well better not be planning on the problem continuing no matter who the QB is (according to some there is no pass protection problem and over 50% of the sacks are on DC so any QB will solve the problem). By the way--don't know it for a fact, but saw it stated somewhere that the knee brace is purely for protection and isn't a result of a past injury.

So the knee brace is a new fad?? everyone will be wearing them soon?? doubt it.

Do a poll. I doubt you'll find 2 people on this forum, who think we don't have pass protection issues. But what does the QB do when the protection passes down??

A good QB will make a decent WR look like a probowler......... a good QB can take sooooo much pressure off a RB to make him look like the next Gayle sayers. A good QB, can make a poor offensive line look decent....... or at least serviceable.

A decent QB can make a poor offensive line look like a poor offensive line.

El Tejano
02-21-2006, 02:57 PM
Even if he didn't come from UT but came from Houston and won the national championship, we would all be going crazy for him still.

rmartin65
02-21-2006, 03:05 PM
I dont think he would be this hyped. People would still want him, but not this crazy.

Texans_Chick
02-21-2006, 03:14 PM
don't know it for a fact, but saw it stated somewhere that the knee brace is purely for protection and isn't a result of a past injury.

Weird.

I can't imagine playing with one of those things on without actually needing it. For one knee???

Texans_Chick
02-21-2006, 03:30 PM
And there is this explanation:

8:23 -- Funny shot of Leinart warming up and wearing a conspicuous knee brace. After the Saints locked up the No. 2 pick, do you think Leinart went to USC's doctor and asked, "Can you give me the biggest, scariest looking knee brace you can find?"

Link (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:9UHMEfZZtegJ:sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story%3Fpage%3Dsimmons/060105+coach+fredo&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1)

infantrycak
02-21-2006, 04:03 PM
Weird.

I can't imagine playing with one of those things on without actually needing it. For one knee???

As I recall the explanation, some QB's are starting to wear them on their off-side (front when throwing) leg so it doesn't get rolled up by pass rushers.

swtbound07
02-21-2006, 05:03 PM
I certainly see that point, but on the other hand I expect the new coaching staff to be planning on a future where the pass protection is at least NFL average which means the point is temporary at best--they darn well better not be planning on the problem continuing no matter who the QB is (according to some there is no pass protection problem and over 50% of the sacks are on DC so any QB will solve the problem). By the way--don't know it for a fact, but saw it stated somewhere that the knee brace is purely for protection and isn't a result of a past injury.

I hope like hell you are right.....But after 4 years of nothing, i cant walk into any offseason under the assumption the o-line will finally be fixed. Its like the elephant in the room thats being ignored. I hope no matter who we have at qb, they have comfortable 5 second pockets....but god knows i dont expect it.

kastofsna
02-21-2006, 05:04 PM
norm chow made all his QBs wear knee braces as protection. nothing to do with a past injury

thunderkyss
02-21-2006, 05:31 PM
I hope like hell you are right.....But after 4 years of nothing, i cant walk into any offseason under the assumption the o-line will finally be fixed. Its like the elephant in the room thats being ignored. I hope no matter who we have at qb, they have comfortable 5 second pockets....but god knows i dont expect it.

When you say ignored.............. what exactly do you mean by ignored?? You mean not drafting any Offensive linemen in the past 4 years?? No FA signings?? Or just the fact that they do not appear to perform better??

Nighthawk
02-21-2006, 05:50 PM
No, haven't missed that point at all--VY is a gamer, got it, not an issue. Winner who looks like a fantastic QB candidate for the NFL--as aj said, possibly an improved McNair. That's great, but it doesn't change the fact that there is another QB prospect out there who has won a national championship (some would say two), has a Heisman, and is a proven winner as well and if there wasn't a Houston/Texas/UT bias going on he would at least be in the discussion. Since this can't seem to be made clear enough--having a bias for a Houston/Texas/UT guy where the candidates are not clearly unequal is just fine (and using it as a tiebreaker takes nothing, zilch, nada away from VY), but it is absurd to deny its existence.

Actually never mind--I have changed my opinion. VY is clearly head and shoulders a better candidate than Leinart and the only reason anyone in the rest of the country rates Leinart higher is because of a nationwide conspiracy against Texas out of a jealousy against everything Texan.

Dear McSnide--THe deal is, as has been amply repeated here on this board, that your hero USC QB is an excellent NFL prospect with, in a generous way, about 1/2 the upside of Vince Young. THAT'S the reason nobody's talking about him for the Texans.

If the two were exactly the same, and Young played in Florida, born in Florida, etc., won the games he won for Florida, YOU WOULD SEE EXACTLY THE SAME RIOT OF SUPPORT FOR Young as you see now, although I'll grant you it might be turned down a notch or two in volume. But the preference for Young, and the exclusion of Line Art would be exactly the same.

Line Art is only a slightly better David Carr.

Young is a whole different thing entirely. Another universe of discourse. The people who believe in Young believe he's Michael Jordan. Get THAT idea and you'll have the difference and WHY so many are stuck on Young and nobody wants to give you a dime for Line Art.

chuckm
02-21-2006, 07:19 PM
That's a cute rationale and all, but it is still a rationale and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. VY absolutely deserves to be in the discussion of options for the Texans. He is the classic more raw with a higher upside prospect to contrast to Leinart. 99% of the national media/reporting scouting/draftniks have Leinart ranked as the #1 QB prospect, often with exactly that kind of caveat for Young--possibly higher upside, but raw and not as NFL ready. If folks around here weren't playing home town favorites and the QB was actually as bad as portrayed, there would at least be a legitimate debate on Leinart vs. Young. There isn't. There isn't a single MB poster who agrees with the vast majority of non-Houstonians and argues for Leinart. Is there a legitimate debate over who should be the #1 QB--absolutely. There isn't any debate in Houston--that spells homering for VY and to support that running down DC.

I read this post last night and my first reaction was along the lines of "yea that makes sense" .... but the more I think about it, the more I believe that this post is as close as any I've seen to capturing the essence of the VY tidal wave.

Quite a few posters have carried out an incessant barrage on Carr (somewhat deserved and somewhat not IMO) as evidence that the Texans should draft VY ...... but if the Texans need a change in QB, then according to a disproportionate amount of draft/talent pundits (outside of Southeast Texas) it should be Leinhart NOT Young ....

chuckm
02-21-2006, 07:22 PM
If the two were exactly the same, and Young played in Florida, born in Florida, etc., won the games he won for Florida, YOU WOULD SEE EXACTLY THE SAME RIOT OF SUPPORT FOR Young as you see now, although I'll grant you it might be turned down a notch or two in volume. But the preference for Young, and the exclusion of Line Art would be exactly the same.

I can't fathom how anyone could reasonably say this with conviction (other than in the realm of VY mania) ...

infantrycak
02-21-2006, 07:27 PM
I can't fathom how anyone could reasonably say this with conviction (other than in the realm of VY mania) ...

Nah--he is right, if we were on the Miami Dolphins MB.

kastofsna
02-21-2006, 08:18 PM
Line Art is only a slightly better David Carr.

Young is a whole different thing entirely. Another universe of discourse. The people who believe in Young believe he's Michael Jordan. Get THAT idea and you'll have the difference and WHY so many are stuck on Young and nobody wants to give you a dime for Line Art.
yawwwwwn. you know nothing about what makes a great quarterback. comparing leinart to carr is absurd

aj.
02-21-2006, 08:27 PM
I have a feeling that one has the potential to be another Carson Palmer while the other has the potential to be a new and improved Steve McNair. In so many of these arguments, people make it sound as if one is going to the HOF and the other will suck and that's what makes me lose interest so quickly as I scroll....

chuckm
02-21-2006, 08:49 PM
unfortunately the Carr/VY debate has been a zero sum game since the Rose Bowl ...

Wolf
02-21-2006, 08:52 PM
unfortunately the Carr/VY debate has been a zero sum game since the Rose Bowl ...


yep.. this is why I hope we go ugly on the 1st round.. Every year threads pop up about getting the flashy pick (and basically we have except for TJ) and during the season we (us in the MB) are complaining about not having a line to protect or a line to get after the QB

thunderkyss
02-21-2006, 11:01 PM
I have a feeling that one has the potential to be another Carson Palmer while the other has the potential to be a new and improved Steve McNair. In so many of these arguments, people make it sound as if one is going to the HOF and the other will suck and that's what makes me lose interest so quickly as I scroll....


Okay....... you tell me. Name one thing Leinart has that David Carr doesn't. If everything goes right, and Matt goes on to be the best he could be, who would be his closest comparison?? Same scenario for Carr....... if things go as best as it can for Carr now on, where would Carr end up?? For both guys, I'm thinking Peyton Manning..... Dan Marino. Somewhere in that range...

Vince Young, I'm thinking Montana..... Favre.... Elway........ YOung... something along those lines.......

Both have greatness in them........ we've got the Peyton/Marino thing..... we'd rather have the Montana/Young thing...

For the most part, even though we are ragging on Carr.... most of us will be here hoping the best For David, if we do in fact pass on Vince. We're tired of waiting for him to do something. You guys have patience, and can wait for him to make himself look better.... we think he should be at the point now, where he makes the rest of his team look better. He should be making the line look better.... but when he runs out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage with the ball, he makes them look worse. When he runs from a perfectly good pocket, it makes the line look worse. When the left side breaks down, and he runs to the left,



........ it makes the line look worse.

Marcus
02-22-2006, 07:52 AM
Even if you don't want to draft a QB, VY does not deserve all of the flack he has gotten on this board.

I regret sounding like a broken record, but y'all brought this on yourselves with the persistant "if you don't draft VY, you're stupid" rant.

If you plant the seed, don't whine if you have to harvest it later.

chuckm
02-22-2006, 08:23 AM
Another opinion ....


http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9254669

Big B Texan Fan
02-22-2006, 08:42 AM
Another opinion ....


http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9254669
I like the last sentence:

12. Vince Young, QB, Texas -- His Rose Bowl performance has his stock soaring. But there are still teams worried about his passing. He has a funky motion and he doesn't have a great arm. It's good, not great. But he is special when it comes to moving outside the pocket. Hard to grade since he's unlike any quarterbacks we've seen.

This guys board is whack anyways. He prefaces' it by saying that Bush is a better RB than Leinert is a QB. So in his opinion Huff is a better S than Young is a QB?

chuckm-
There hasn't been a workout yet. Like many drafts in the past, guys move up and down these boards like a see-saw around the middle of March or sooner depending on when their pro-day is.
ie.-Rogers was ahead of Smith last year, team preference is what had the Colts take Manning over Leaf.
I do have to say that your desire to find those nuggets of info that have VY rated low is admirable, yet it is noted that you do think he'll a great NFL talent, just that you don't want him on this team. Fair enough. I'm just bangin' the drum for a QB change, I'd prefer VY but will take whatever we get if it's anything at all.

chuckm
02-22-2006, 08:52 AM
chuckm-
There hasn't been a workout yet. Like many drafts in the past, guys move up and down these boards like a see-saw around the middle of March or sooner depending on when their pro-day is.
ie.-Rogers was ahead of Smith last year, team preference is what had the Colts take Manning over Leaf.


so you're expecting Young's stock to rise after his workout? It could happen I guess but it won't go any higher than it was on Jan 5th


chuckm-
I do have to say that your desire to find those nuggets of info that have VY rated low is admirable, yet it is noted that you do think he'll a great NFL talent, just that you don't want him on this team. Fair enough. I'm just bangin' the drum for a QB change, I'd prefer VY but will take whatever we get if it's anything at all.

I found the link to that article on

http://www.draftdaddy.com/blog/blog.cfm

so it's not like I went into Google and searched for "Vince Young unflattering rankings NFL draft"

chuckm
02-22-2006, 08:56 AM
I found the link to that article on

http://www.draftdaddy.com/blog/blog.cfm

so it's not like I went into Google and searched for "Vince Young unflattering rankings NFL draft"



but since you mentioned it and I went back to the page to look for the link, here's another blurb on that same page ....



Mayock on Matt Leinart: “He has tremendous accuracy and touch. I question his arm strength. He has good mechanics, although he has a long motion. But better than any quarterback in the draft, he understands when and where to throw the football, and that’s criteria No. 1 to be a successful NFL quarterback.”

Mayock on Vince Young: “Vince Young is the major question mark in this draft. I think now that all the excitement from the national championship game has calmed down, that more and more football guys are stepping back and saying, ‘He might be the best athlete to ever come out in the draft, given his size, height, weight and speed. But how much do we want to modify our offense to accommodate this young man? … If I’m a GM and I’ve got to guarantee millions of dollars at that level, my personal opinion is I would go in a different direction.”

chuckm
02-22-2006, 09:01 AM
chuckm-
I do have to say that your desire to find those nuggets of info that have VY rated low is admirable, yet it is noted that you do think he'll a great NFL talent, just that you don't want him on this team. Fair enough. I'm just bangin' the drum for a QB change, I'd prefer VY but will take whatever we get if it's anything at all.

and just for good measure, here's one that has Young ahead of Leinhart ...


http://www.draftinsiders.com/7.html

kastofsna
02-22-2006, 10:11 AM
i keep hearing from various "good sources" that young will slip pretty fall after the titans draft cutler. this one guy said a full week before last year's draft that the niners were taking alex smith and that rodgers would fall to the packers. of course, no one believed him then either...

Rewsky
02-22-2006, 11:19 AM
I regret sounding like a broken record, but y'all brought this on yourselves with the persistant "if you don't draft VY, you're stupid" rant.

If you plant the seed, don't whine if you have to harvest it later.


Surely you don't think that the "you're stupid" rants are made only by VY fans. I've seen plenty of "if you want to draft VY, you don't know anything about football" rants. I just wish that people would bash him because of his football abilities and not because some VY fan is calling people stupid for not agreeing with them.

I agree though that those "you're stupid" posts are annoying and don't really add anything to the discussion. I try and skip them when I can.:redtowel:

infantrycak
02-24-2006, 01:01 PM
FWIW--some outside perspective:

Excluding Savage and Chow, a poll of four personnel men and two offensive assistants (all from different teams) revealed a strong lean toward Leinart. Only one assistant thought Young was the best quarterback prospect in this draft. Two of the six thought both Leinart and Cutler ranked ahead of Young.

Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AkR17TqE_8VthTOsOVCl6YtDubYF?slug=cr-combine022306&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Lance Zerlein said something similar the other day--he had talked to scouts from 7 teams and 6 had Leinart rated above Young. He didn't seem to have asked about Cutler.

Savage's explanation makes sense for some of the difference between teams and fans:

"You're probably going to hit a double every time with [USC quarterback Matt Leinart]. With [Young], you're going to strike out or hit a home run," said Cleveland Browns general manager Phil Savage, who rated Leinart as the safer pick at this point. "When you're talking about $40-, $50- and $60-million contracts, you might be better off taking the double. But there's always a team or two that's willing to take that chance.

It isn't the fans' money so they will often favor the homerun where the guys spending the money will often prefer the safe investment.

And for an off-topic bonus quote on Bush, here is one from his old OC with a tough analysis on his shift to the NFL:

One of the most interesting comments about Bush came from former USC offensive coordinator Norm Chow. Chow said he believes Bush has the ability to be successful in the NFL, but added that he will have plenty of significant hurdles to clear.

"They're huge," Chow said. "Pass protection, blocking, running pass routes. He's played in a good system with a good staff, but the speed of the game – they're all going to be as fast as he is, you know?"