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cuppacoffee
02-17-2006, 11:07 AM
I think it is safe to say that some of our players have been severly under-coached.

Which player do you think will improve under a new coaching staff, and if you have a reason to think so.

Such as:

Seth Wand...

Players cannot fool the other players. When Boselli was here he stated that Wand had the skills and would be a good player. It was too long ago for me to locate a link but it has been discussed here in the past.
The first time Wand was given a chance at LT he played very well (again going by memory, was it against Miami? ). It appeared to me that for some reason Wand got into Pendrys doghouse and was relegated to the bench. Wand is still here and Pendry is gone, that should tell us something.

David Carr...

Really receiving a lot of abuse on the MBs lately.

It has been hashed and re-hashed but IMO Carr has never been in a situation where he could succeed. Sure, he has not progressed as far as we had hoped when he was drafted, but sooner or later self preservation sets in.
Here's hoping that Kubiak proves out to be the QB tutor we think he is.

Tony Hollings...

Again, another player who has not been put in a position to succeed. When has he ever played except behind our third string O line.

Dave Ragone

Same as Hollings

These are just my opinions. We all have one or two of those. :cool:


:coffee:

infantrycak
02-17-2006, 11:10 AM
As I recall, Boselli said something to the effect that Wand was the quickest study he had ever worked with which kind of contradicted the reports of his having a learning disability. Don't remember Boselli saying Wand was a physical beast or anything. Pitts played LT in 2003 against Miami. Wand started at LT in 2004 which opened with San Diego.

HoustonFrog
02-17-2006, 11:34 AM
Whomever is our starting tailback will benefit most.

Runner
02-17-2006, 11:37 AM
As I recall, Boselli said something to the effect that Wand was the quickest study he had ever worked with which kind of contradicted the reports of his having a learning disability. Don't remember Boselli saying Wand was a physical beast or anything. Pitts played LT in 2003 against Miami. Wand started at LT in 2004 which opened with San Diego.

Learning disability is a misunderstood term. Did you know that to meet the national standard for being "learning disabled" (which is there for funding purposes), you have to be at least of average IQ to be considered learning disabled? Learning disabled can mean you think or learn differently - it doesn't mean stupid. The currently popular left-brain vs. right-brain theories are a good example of this. Do a quick google search on that if you are interested. In summary (and I'm talking in general, not about a specific person), some kids are visually oriented and don't do rote memorization and step-by-step processes well. Do you know some people who thrived in algebra and hated geometry? Others who thrived in geometry and struggled with algebra? The latter type may be right brained and may be considered learning disabled even though they can develop complex proofs in their heads. They may even get good grades overall because they have a high IQ and are overcoming the learning challenge just because they are smarter than most.

To tie that back to football:

*****Start pure speculative fiction used as an example******

If a team has a player who is visually oriented this could occur:

The coach screams at the player a series of commands: "keep better balance", "play with your feet close together", "Dammit I said balance", etc. The player doesn't get any better so the coach thinks he's worthless.

Same player then gets a new coach who for purposes of this example used to play the same position. The new coach says "here, let me show you how to maintain better balance" and let's the player watch him demonstrate. The visually oriented player thinks "OH! Like that! I can do that!" and improves.

*****End pure speculative fiction used as an example******


I know this is a cop out on the original question, but I think almost all of our players will improve due to the coaching. I think very few of them have reached their potential. Some on your list - Ragone leaps to mind - haven't had much of a chance to even show what they have.

infantrycak
02-17-2006, 12:47 PM
Learning disability is a misunderstood term. Did you know that to meet the national standard for being "learning disabled" (which is there for funding purposes), you have to be at least of average IQ to be considered learning disabled?

I wasn't attempting to call him dumb or anything. Just pointing out what I remember hearing--he was supposedly very coachable despite his learning disability.

Big B Texan Fan
02-17-2006, 12:54 PM
I think they'll all improve but not until the Staff gets past the new job jitters

HJam72
02-17-2006, 12:58 PM
So....if I had a learning disability, I wouldn't be so stupid. :ok:

Runner
02-17-2006, 01:03 PM
I wasn't attempting to call him dumb or anything. Just pointing out what I remember hearing--he was supposedly very coachable despite his learning disability.


I know you weren't. I don't even know what "learning disabled" means in his case. I've seen the same thing a few times, and I thought it might be very misleading.

I recently had cause to look into visual-spatial thinking and was pretty shocked - I thought that usually learning disabled = not too bright. I've probably made some unfair assumptions about people in the past.

I just re-read my post - "The did you know" part was addressed at the global you.

I am very optimistic about the new coaching staff and the methods that have been used in the past at Denver to make sure the team understands and plays within the system. I thought our players across the board showed a lack of understanding of whatever system Capers/Palmer/Pendry have tried to install. That is why I think almost all of our players can and will reach a higher level next season. I'm hoping that the new coaches really can teach for a change.

Runner
02-17-2006, 01:05 PM
So....if I had a learning disability, I wouldn't be so stupid. :ok:

No if someone is stupid they aren't learning disabled. Just stupid.

Note I said "someone".

HJam72
02-17-2006, 01:49 PM
No if someone is stupid they aren't learning disabled. Just stupid.

Note I said "someone".

I don't get it. :confused:

AustinJB
02-17-2006, 04:15 PM
I think it is safe to say that some of our players have been severly under-coached.

Which player do you think will improve under a new coaching staff, and if you have a reason to think so.


At the risk of listing every player on the team, this is what I think:

Will show significant improvement

OLINE-the entire unit should look like a legitimate line

BABIN-I believe that he usually played "solid" at the linebacker spot, but was never the "outstanding" player that we expected to see since he was taken in the 1st round. I think moving him back to DE will give him confidence and we should at least see flashes of what we originally expected out of him.

PEEK-Whether at DE or LB, he will get better coaching (and disipline) to go along w/ his undeniable speed and athleticism.

GAFFNEY-Never a superstar (which many probably expected) but a reliable receiver. I think this staff will utilize him in the correct way and he will be a very good option for us.

GLENN EARL-Any player that has had to fight back from an injury and still play as solid as he did, even w/ all the horrible coaching, should greatly benefit from the new staff.

ORR-Showed good promise at the end of last year. Again, IMO, any player that played decent under that horrible coaching staff, could be very good w/ proper coaching, technique, etc.


The players that are already "good", but should excel

AJ-Should be a beast once he knows what he's supposed to do and has a coach that knows how to get the ball in his hands. A future regular at the Pro-Bowl.

DD-Already a reliable (barring injuries) 1,000 yd back, he should benefit from Kubes offensive scheme...not to mention the fact that they'll regularly sub in/out other backs to spell him.

DROB-My favorite player on the team...I expect him to blossom into the ferocious hitter/shutdown corner that he has the potential to be. Another future regular at the Pro-Bowl IMO.


Who knows b/c we haven't seen them on the field

ARMSTRONG-Reported to have the best hands on the team, I'm anxious to see if he'll see significant PT this yr...and what he'll do w/ it once he gets it.

MATHIS-While we do know that he's a great kick returner, I'd like to see him improve as a pass receiver and develop better techniques.


Players that I'm crossing my fingers for and hoping for the best

CARR-While he hasn't had a supporting cast, I still believe we should have seen more improvement out of him at this point. As a #1 pick, I want to see him be a leader, make better decisions, etc.....

PBURNT-Undeniable speed and athleticism; hopefully he'll start acting like he actually cares about playing football and for the love of all god....TACKLE!!

bdiddy
02-17-2006, 04:54 PM
Seth Wand by far!

Mark it down he will be our starting right tackle next season.

Pendry felt the need to bring in huge lineman to play in his version of the zone blocking scheme. He wanted mashers, lineman that can just push you out of the way. While Wand is not a small lineman, he is more of a technique player, who has less than average strength for an NFL lineman. This being said, Kubiak/Denver's zone blocking scheme is much more about proper technique, good feet, and angles. Seth Wand is suited for this offense, he will thrive. I believe he and Pitts are more than adequate to hold down the tackle positions.

David Carr is a close second. He is going to get a top-fligth mentor that will demand everything out of him. Palmer was a reasonable QB coach, but he was soft and did not command the players respect. Pendry was loud and in your face, but his scheme was vanilla. Kubiak is a mixture of Palmer's ingenuity, with Pendry intensity minus the yelling.

Tony Hollins is a bust, sorry - it is everything to do with his head and nothing to do with his physical skills.

cuppacoffee
02-17-2006, 05:50 PM
"Tony Hollins is a bust, sorry - it is everything to do with his head and nothing to do with his physical skills."


I must have missed something: could you elaborate ?..

Big B Texan Fan
02-17-2006, 05:55 PM
"Tony Hollins is a bust, sorry - it is everything to do with his head and nothing to do with his physical skills."


I must have missed something: could you elaborate ?..
I agree with you coffee.

He was a SS turned RB. Had 4 great games against those non-conference teams that most big programs froth over. Then once the regular conference got started, he got injured. Then we use a high 2nd rd'r on him in a Supp Draft. That Vintage Casserly at his finest.

Coach C.
02-17-2006, 06:21 PM
It is said that Philly is interested in Mr. Armstrong. They think he can be that reliable guy. Just an interesting stat about him he catches 76% of all balls thrown his way. got that from foxsports.com

aj.
02-17-2006, 06:39 PM
Don't look now but the Texans need help at WR.

AJ and Mathis are the only two under contract. Gaffney is a UFA. Armstrong is a RFA. Bradford is Bradford.

Gaffney's agent is Drew R and even if they can't get it, they will be looking for something stupid.

If Armstrong gets anything less than the mid-level tender, he's gone. We will know this in 12 days max.

I think only one of the two (Gaffney or Armstrong) will be on this squad next season. My money is on Armstrong.

nunusguy
02-17-2006, 10:20 PM
Seth Wand by far!
Mark it down he will be our starting right tackle next season.
Pendry felt the need to bring in huge lineman to play in his version of the zone blocking scheme. He wanted mashers, lineman that can just push you out of the way. While Wand is not a small lineman, he is more of a technique player, who has less than average strength for an NFL lineman. This being said, Kubiak/Denver's zone blocking scheme is much more about proper technique, good feet, and angles. Seth Wand is suited for this offense, he will thrive. I believe he and Pitts are more than adequate to hold down the tackle positions.

Interesting analysis Bdiddy, I appreciated it and I hope you're prediction about
Wand being our guy at RT holds true.
I think another beneficiary of the reorganization will be 2005s top Draft pick, Travis Johnson. He is much more suited to be a DT in the 4-3 than a Dlineman
in the 3-4.

The Dude Abides
02-17-2006, 10:27 PM
Don't look now but the Texans need help at WR.

AJ and Mathis are the only two under contract. Gaffney is a UFA. Armstrong is a RFA. Bradford is Bradford.

Gaffney's agent is Drew R and even if they can't get it, they will be looking for something stupid.

If Armstrong gets anything less than the mid-level tender, he's gone. We will know this in 12 days max.

I think only one of the two (Gaffney or Armstrong) will be on this squad next season. My money is on Armstrong.

"Bradford is Bradford" God that is the most true statement I've seen on here. I can't wait to be rid of him next year. Well, I can always hope.

The Dude Abides
02-17-2006, 10:28 PM
what is da deal with wand why is everybody talking aobut him this offseason:confused:

dont you remember how bad he did the few times we saw him this past season?

Don't you remember how bad our ENTIRE offensive line was ALL season?

JohnGalt
02-18-2006, 07:13 AM
what is da deal with wand why is everybody talking aobut him this offseason:confused:

dont you remember how bad he did the few times we saw him this past season?

Because I think many of us feel that he was one of the most under-coached players on the team. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but it seems his scouting reports and the comments from people in the league point to tremendous potential.

phan1
02-19-2006, 12:44 AM
Sorry, but I don't understand all this Wand loving either. And the few times he's been in there, it's not like he's been great either. If anything, he's looked just as bad as the rest of our Oline. How are we supposed to hype a guy who is never on the field! The only thing I remember about him is him totally stinking it up on the Oline during the closing secounds of our loss to the Bengals.

I would love to get excited about him, but I don't really understand why I would. The only good things I hear about Wand is rumors and gossip. Show it on the field dammit!

texan279
02-19-2006, 01:04 AM
Sorry, but I don't understand all this Wand loving either. And the few times he's been in there, it's not like he's been great either. If anything, he's looked just as bad as the rest of our Oline. How are we supposed to hype a guy who is never on the field! The only thing I remember about him is him totally stinking it up on the Oline during the closing secounds of our loss to the Bengals.

I would love to get excited about him, but I don't really understand why I would. The only good things I hear about Wand is rumors and gossip. Show it on the field dammit!

When Wand started all 16 games last season at LT, he had 3 penalties and allowed 12.5 sacks. Compare that to say Alex Barron, who some here wanted us to draft last year who was penalized 16 times and allowed 5.75 sacks in 11 games started or Jammal Brown who was penalized 8 times and allowed 3.5 sacks this past season in 13 games started, and both of those guys played at the RT spot. The 12.5 sacks Wand allowed may seem like a lot, but he was playing at the LT spot not the RT spot. And I am not saying "I love" Wand, but he did play pretty well at the LT spot for the entire season he did start.

mexican_texan
02-19-2006, 01:10 AM
Sorry, but I don't understand all this Wand loving either. And the few times he's been in there, it's not like he's been great either. If anything, he's looked just as bad as the rest of our Oline. How are we supposed to hype a guy who is never on the field! The only thing I remember about him is him totally stinking it up on the Oline during the closing secounds of our loss to the Bengals.

I would love to get excited about him, but I don't really understand why I would. The only good things I hear about Wand is rumors and gossip. Show it on the field dammit!
He was benched in favor of Victor Riley more than once.

Runner
02-19-2006, 02:39 AM
He was benched in favor of Victor Riley more than once.

And the offense really took off after that.

CoachJim
02-19-2006, 06:40 AM
... and both of those guys played at the RT spot. The 12.5 sacks Wand allowed may seem like a lot, but he was playing at the LT spot not the RT spot. And I am not saying "I love" Wand, but he did play pretty well at the LT spot for the entire season he did start.

Exactly ... To me, playin the RT spot is much easier cuz 80% of the time it's not the QBs blindside cuz he's right-handed and he can see'em comin most of the time, hence the ability to get rid of the ball. I prolly just stated the obvoius but it's 6 in the AM & I just woke up too. Just my miserable :twocents:

cuppacoffee
02-19-2006, 01:45 PM
He was benched in favor of Victor Riley more than once.

True but Riley and Pendry are gone thank goodness........and Wand is still here. I think just maybe stupid? ole Cass knew that Wand was better than he was allowed to be. JMHO

HJam72
02-19-2006, 01:52 PM
Exactly ... To me, playin the RT spot is much easier cuz 80% of the time it's not the QBs blindside cuz he's right-handed and he can see'em comin most of the time, hence the ability to get rid of the ball. I prolly just stated the obvoius but it's 6 in the AM & I just woke up too. Just my miserable :twocents:

The RT also gets occasional help from the TE, whereas the LT does not.

phan1
02-19-2006, 03:09 PM
It's just amazing to me that if Wand was that good and had a decent campaign 2 years ago, he would be in the "Pendry Doghouse" and not start last season. Especially after the season we just had. Just amazing. We than put Pitts at LT mid-season and our line is suddenly playing twice as well (after 1 or 2 games of transitioning). It's really amazing how we had a pretty average Oline the whole time and than made it the worst in the NFL by not putting in the 5 best players on the field.

It really is just incomparable, and all signs point to Pendry being totally incompetent. You know your Oline stinks, and your job is in jeopardy, and you can't even put together your 5 best Olineman on the field? :confused: I really don't get how people can screw up a team with at least average talent.

And don't even get me started on Casserly and what he did to us last season.

bigTEXan8
02-19-2006, 04:00 PM
Three people I think benefit the most:

1. DC: Kubiak is going to be very hands on with Carr, and I think everyone will finally understand why Carr was drafted 1st overall in 2002. It's quite unfortunate that it will have taken 4 years, but sometimes that's what happens when you have lousy coaching and piss-a** game-planning. Carr has too strong of an arm, to much go in him to be held back by coaching and managment.

2. Babin: I swear, this guy is a stud who has been playing the wrong position. I know you can convert some players into different positions, but this guy was meant to be a DE. I think it was unfair for Babin to be asked to drop back in coverage, because he's just not a coverage player. Babin will cause some real havoc...JM:twocents:.

3. Greenwood: I just have a feeling about his guy. I could be totally wrong, but I think this guy is gonna go back to the position to which he's comfortable, I believe WSLB, and he's gonna flourish. I think he'll be much improved with the 4-3 scheme. He's just not a good MLB in the 3-4.

Runner
02-19-2006, 04:17 PM
2. Babin: I swear, this guy is a stud who has been playing the wrong position. I know you can convert some players into different positions, but this guy was meant to be a DE. I think it was unfair for Babin to be asked to drop back in coverage, because he's just not a coverage player. Babin will cause some real havoc...JM:twocents:.



I hope Babin can do the job if used differently. I wonder though where he would have been picked in the draft as a defensive end. He may have been rated higher as a converted 3-4 olb than as a 4-3 defensive end.

None of that is his fault though; I hope he can perform well enough, even if he never reaches the value of what we gave up for him.

AustinJB
02-19-2006, 04:30 PM
I hope Babin can do the job if used differently. I wonder though where he would have been picked in the draft as a defensive end. He may have been rated higher as a converted 3-4 olb than as a 4-3 defensive end.

None of that is his fault though; I hope he can perform well enough, even if he never reaches the value of what we gave up for him.

Babin was listed by most scouting notes as the 4th-best DE prospect in the draft behind Kenechi Udeze, Will Smith, and Antwan Odom.

I tend to agree w/ BigTexan8 on this one...I'm expecting great things out of Babin as a DE. I think that playing his natural position, he'll be a very different player for the better (although it may take a few games for him to reaquaint himself w/ the position.)

As a DE, Babin would probably have been a mid-2nd round pick IMO (instead of the 1st that we used on him.) However, non of that is his fault. We have him now and I think we'll be more pleased w/ him after this coming season.:twocents: