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Matt_Alkire
02-13-2006, 02:31 PM
As mentioned, I wanted to stop over and post our newest mock draft.

Our site is www.scoutsnotebook.com. If you do register remember that there is a small membership fee. Viewing the mock drafts and rankings are free as always.


Round 1

1. Houston- Reggie Bush, RB USC
2. New Orleans- Matt Leinart, QB USC
3. Tennessee- Vince Young, QB Texas
4. NY Jets- D'Brickashaw Ferguson, OT Virginia
5. Green Bay- Mario Williams, DE NC State
6. Oakland- AJ Hawk, OLB Ohio State
7. San Francisco- Tye Hill, CB Clemson
8. Buffalo- Haloti Ngata, DT Oregon
9. Detroit- Chad Greenway, OLB Iowa
10. Arizona- Michael Huff, DB Texas
11. St.Louis- Vernon Davis, TE Maryland
12. Cleveland- Santonio Holmes, WR Ohio State
13. Baltimore- DeAngelo Williams, RB Memphis
14. Philadelphia- Mathias Kiwanuka, DE Boston College
15. Atlanta- Jimmy Williams, CB VaTech
16. Miami- Jay Cutler, QB Vanderbilt
17. Minnesota- Bobby Carpenter, OLB Ohio State
18. Dallas- Marcus McNeill, OT Auburn
19. San Diego- DeMeco Ryans, ILB Alabama
20. Kansas City- Jonathan Scott, OT Texas
21. New England- LenDale White, RB USC
22. Denver(f/Was)- Brodrick Bunkley, DT Florida State
23. Tampa Bay- Ernie Sims, OLB Florida State
24. Cincinnati- Tamba Hali, DE Penn State
25. NY Giants- Ashton Youboty, CB Ohio State
26. Chicago- Anthony Fasano, TE Notre Dame
27. Carolina- Claude Wroten, DT LSU
28. Jacksonville- Laurence Maroney, RB Minnesota
29. Denver- Darnell Bing, S USC
30. Indianapolis- Brian Calhoun, RB Wisconsin
31. Seattle- Jonathan McCargo, DT NC State
32. Pittsburgh- Chad Jackson, WR Florida

Round 2

33. Houston- Eric Winston, OT Miami
34. New Orleans- D'Qwell Jackson, MLB Maryland
35. NY Jets- Manny Lawson, DE/OLB NC State
36. Green Bay- Nick Mangold, C Ohio State
37. San Francisco- Ko Simpson, FS South Carolina
38. Oakland- Gabe Watson, DT Michigan
39. Tennessee- Winston Justice, OT USC
40. Detroit- Darryl Tapp, DE VaTech
41. Arizona- Daryn Colledge, OT Boise State
42. Buffalo- Maurice Stovall, WR Notre Dame
43. Cleveland- Kamerion Wimbley, OLB Florida State
44. Baltimore- Kelly Jennings, CB Miami
45. Philadelphia- Marcedes Lewis, TE UCLA
46. St.Louis- Thomas Howard, OLB UTEP
47. Atlanta- Daniel Bullocks, S Nebraska
48. Minnesota- Leonard Pope, TE Georgia
49. Dallas- Donte Whitner, S Ohio State
50. San Diego- Charles Gordon, CB Kansas
51. Miami- Cedric Griffin, CB Texas
52. Kansas City- Sinorice Moss, WR Miami
53. New England- Alan Zemaitis, CB Penn State
54. Washington- Abdul Hodge, MLB Iowa
55. Tampa Bay- Stanley McClover, DE Auburn
56. Carolina- Derek Hagan, WR Arizona State
57. Chicago- Antonio Cromartie, CB Florida State
58. Cincinnati- Jonathan Lewis, DT VaTech
59. NY Giants- Jeremy Trueblood, OT Boston College
60. Jacksonville- DeMario Minter, CB Texas
61. Denver- Parys Haralson, DE Tennessee
62. Indianapolis- Davin Joseph, OG Oklahoma
63. Seattle- Joseph Addai, RB LSU
64. Pittsburgh- Gerald Riggs Jr, RB Tennessee

Round 3

65. Houston- Elvis Dumervil, DE Louisville
66. Houston(f/NO)- Mark Setterstrom, OG Minnesota
67. Green Bay- Charles Spencer, OG Pittsburgh
68. San Francisco- Dominique Byrd, TE USC
69. Oakland- Anthony Smith, S Syracuse
70. Buffalo(f/Ten)- Dee Webb, CB Florida
71. NY Jets- Rob Sims, OG Ohio State
72. Arizona- Babatunde Oshinowo, DT Stanford
73. Buffalo- Andrew Whitworth, LT LSU
74. Detroit- Ryan O'Callaghan, OT California
75. New England(f/Bal)- Kai Parham, ILB Virginia
76. Philadelphia- Jesse Mahelona, DT Tennessee
77. St.Louis- Jonathan Joseph, CB South Carolina
78. Cleveland- Max Jean-Gilles, OG Georgia
79. Atlanta- Mark Anderson, DE Alabama
80. Dallas- Taitusi Lutui, OG USC
81. San Diego- Jahmile Addae, S WVU
82. Miami- Rocky McIntosh, OLB Miami
83. Minnesota- Maurice Drew, RB UCLA
84. Kansas City- Charlie Whitehurst, CB Clemson
85. New England- Cory Rodgers, WR TCU
86. Washington- Greg Blue, SS Georgia
87. Tampa Bay- Travis Wilson, WR Oklahoma
88. Chicago- Pat Watkins, S Florida State
89. Carolina- Nate Salley, S Ohio State
90. Cincinnati- Dwayne Slay, SS Texas Tech
91. NY Giants- Orien Harris, DT Miami
92. Jacksonville- Jason Allen, CB Tennessee
93. Denver- Demetrius Williams, WR Oregon
94. Indianapolis- Kevin Simon, OLB Tennessee
95. Seattle- Kevin Boothe, OG Cornell
96. Pittsburgh- Rod Wright, DE Texas

Round 4

97. Houston- Will Blackmon, CB Boston College
98. New Orleans- David Pittman, CB Northwestern State
99. Green Bay- Kyle Williams, DT LSU
100. Oakland- AJ Nicholson, OLB Florida State
101. San Francisco- Victor Adeyanju, DE Indiana
102. Tennessee- Ryan Cook, C New Mexico
103. NY Jets- Brody Croyle, QB Alabama
104. Buffalo- Bernard Pollard, S Purdue
105. New England(f/Det)- Chris Gocong, ILB Cal Poly
106. Arizona- TJ Williams, TE NC State
107. St.Louis- Frostee Rucker, DE USC
108. Cleveland- Ray Edwards, DE Purdue
109. Baltimore- Dusty Dvoracek, DT Oklahoma
110. Philadelphia- Devin Hester, ATH Miami
111. Atlanta- Joe Toledo, OT Washington
112. Miami- Skyler Green, WR LSU
113. Minnesota- Jason Spitz, OG Louisville
114. Philadelphia(f/Dal)- Anthony Schlegel, MLB Ohio State
115. San Diego- Jabari Levey, OT South Carolina
116. NY Jets(f/KC)- Terrence Whitehead, RB Oregon
117. New England- Danieal Manning, CB Abilene-Christian
118. Denver(f/Wash)- Greg Eslinger, C Minnesota
119. Tampa Bay- Richard Marshall, CB Fresno State
120. Cincinnati- Joel Klopfenstein, TE Colorado
121. NY Giants- Greg Lee, WR Pittsburgh
122. Chicago- Martin Nance, WR Miami(OH)
123. Carolina- Taurean Henderson, RB Texas Tech
124. Jacksonville- Brandon Williams, WR Wisconsin
125. Denver- Darrell Hackney, QB UAB
126. Philadelphia(f/Indy)- Eric Henderson, DE Georgia Tech
127. Seattle- Matt Bernstein, FB Wisconsin
128. Pittsburgh- Michael Robinson, ATH Penn State

Round 5

129. Houston- Mike Hass, WR Oregon State
130. New Orleans- Montavious Stanley, DT Louisville
131. Green Bay- Lawrence Vickers, FB Colorado
132. NY Jets- Greg Jennings, WR Western Michigan
133. Tennessee- Darrell Hunter, CB Miami(OH)
134. San Francisco- Ryan LaCasse, OLB Syracuse
135. New England(f/Oak)- Tim Dobbins, ILB Iowa State
136. Buffalo- Andre Hall, RB South Florida
137. Detroit- Drew Olson, QB UCLA
138. Arizona- Omar Jacobs, QB Bowling Green
139. St.Louis- Fred Matua, OG USC
140. Cleveland- Steve Fifita, NT Utah
141. Baltimore- Freddie Roach, MLB Alabama
142. Philadelphia- Cedric Humes, RB VaTech
143. Atlanta- Jerome Harrison, RB Washington State
144. Miami- Manuel Wright, DT USC (Supplemental Draft)
145. Minnesota- Clint Ingram, OLB Nebraska
146. Dallas- Jason Avant, WR Michigan
147. San Diego- JD Runnels, FB Oklahoma
148. Kansas City- James Wyche, DE Syracuse
149. Cleveland(f/NE)- Dale Robinson, ILB Arizona State
150. Washington- Cody Douglas, OG Tennessee
151. Tampa Bay- Paul McQuistan, OT Weber State
152. Cincinnati- Manase Hopoi, DT Washington
153. NY Giants- Travis Williams, OLB Auburn
154. Chicago- Spencer Havner, OLB UCLA
155. Carolina- Mike Degory, C Florida
156. Jacksonville- Brian Iwuh, OLB Colorado
157. Denver- Mike Bell, RB Arizona
158. Indianapolis- Willie Evans, DE Mississippi State
159. Seattle- Jovon Bouknight, WR Wyoming
160. Pittsburgh- Roman Harper, S Alabama

Round 6

161. Houston- Tim Day, TE Oregon
162. New Orleans- Jon Alston, OLB Stanford
163. Tennessee- Hank Baskett, WR New Mexico
164. NY Jets- LeKevin Smith, DT Nebraska
165. Green Bay- DonTrell Moore, RB New Mexico
166. Oakland- Dan Stevenson, OG Notre Dame
167. San Francisco- Garrett Mills, FB Tulsa
168. Buffalo- Mike Kudla, DE Ohio State
169. Detroit- Michael Toudouze, OT TCU
170. Arizona- Gerris Wilkinson, LB Georgia Tech
171. St.Louis- Tim McGarigle, MLB Northwestern
172. Cleveland- Jonathan Orr, WR Wisconsin
173. Baltimore- Bruce Gradkowski, QB Toledo
174. Dallas(f/Phi)- Gerrick McPhearson, CB Maryland
175. Atlanta- Keon Jackson, S Toledo
176. San Diego(f/Mia)- Cameron Vaughn, ILB LSU
177. San Diego(f/Min)- Todd Watkins, WR BYU
178. Kansas City(f/Dal)- Na'Shan Goddard, OG South Carolina
179. San Diego- Brett Basanez, QB Northwestern
180. Kansas City- Tim Jennings, CB Georgia
181. New England- Willie Reid, WR Florida State
182. Washington- Johnny Jolly, DT Texas A&M
183. San Francisco(f/TB)- Reggie McNeal, ATH Texas A&M
184. Cincinnati- Paul Pinegar, QB Fresno State
185. NY Giants- Marcus Hudson, DB NC State
186. Chicago- Adam Stenavich, OT Michigan
187. Washington(f/Car)- Charles Sharon, WR Bowling Green
188. Jacksonville- Melvin Oliver, DE LSU
189. Denver- James Anderson, OLB VaTech
190. Indianapolis- Terna Nande, OLB Miami(OH)
191. Seattle- Quincy Butler, CB TCU
192. Pittsburgh- Marvin Philip, C California

Round 7

193. Houston- Donovan Raiola, C Wisconsin
194. Miami(f/NO)- Gerald Anderson, DT Georgia
195. Tennessee- Brandon Johnson, OLB Louisville
196. NY Jets- Anwar Phillips, CB Penn State
197. Green Bay- Trent Bray, OLB Oregon State
198. Oakland- Marcus Maxey, CB Miami
199. San Francisco- Omar Gaither, OLB Tennessee
200. Buffalo- Mark LeVoir, OT Notre Dame
201. Detroit- Leon Washington, RB Florida State
202. Arizona- Damien Rhodes, RB Syracuse
203. St.Louis- Jarvis Herring, S Florida
204. Cleveland- Travis Leffew, OT Louisville
205. Baltimore- Antarrious Williams, OLB Auburn
206. Philadelphia- Scott Paxson, DT Penn State
207. Atlanta- David Anderson, WR Colorado State
208. Miami- Aaron Harris, MLB Texas
209. Minnesota- DJ Shockley, QB Georgia
210. Dallas- Nick Leaders, DE Iowa State
211. San Diego- Will Allen, OG Texas
212. Kansas City- Justin Holland, QB Colorado State
213. New England- Wali Lundy, RB Virginia
214. Washington- Matt Lentz, OG Michigan
215. Tampa Bay- Rashad Butler, OT Miami
216. Cincinnati- Jamar Williams, OLB Arizona State
217. NY Giants- Jerious Norwood, RB Mississippi State
218. Chicago- Troy Bienemann, TE Washington State
219. Carolina- Anthony Mix, WR Auburn
220. Jacksonville- Randy Hand, OT Florida
221. Carolina(f/Den)- Albert Toeaina, OT Tennessee
222. Indianapolis- Pat Ross, C Boston College
223. Seattle- Tony Palmer, OG Missouri
224. Pittsburgh- Tyler Everett, CB Ohio State

Matt_Alkire
02-13-2006, 02:31 PM
Team by team selections....

AFC EAST

New York Jets

4. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, OT Virginia
35. Manny Lawson, DE/OLB NC State
71. Rob Sims, OG Ohio State
103. Brodie Croyle, QB Alabama
116. Terrence Whitehead, RB Oregon
132. Greg Jennings, WR Western Michigan
164. LeKevin Smith, DT Nebraska
196. Anwar Phillips, CB Penn State

Buffalo Bills

8. Haloti Ngata, DT Oregon
42. Maurice Stovall, WR Notre Dame
70. (f/Ten)- Dee Webb, CB Florida
73. Andrew Whitworth, OT LSU
104. Bernard Pollard, SS Purdue
136. Andre Hall, RB South Florida
168. Mike Kudla, DE Ohio State
200. Mark LeVoir, OT Notre Dame

Miami Dolphins

16. Jay Cutler, QB Vanderbilt
51. Cedric Griffin, CB Texas
82. Rocky McIntosh, OLB Miami
112. Skyler Green, WR LSU
144. Manuel Wright, DT USC (Supplemental Draft)
194. Gerald Anderson, NT Georgia
208. Aaron Harris, MLB Texas

New England Patriots

21. LenDale White, RB USC
53. Alan Zemaitis, CB Penn State
75. (f/Bal)- Kai Parham, ILB Virginia
85. Cory Rodgers, WR TCU
105. Chris Gocong, LB Cal Poly
117. Danieal Manning, DB Abilene Christrine
135. Tim Dobbins, LB Iowa St.
181. Willie Reid, WR Florida State
213. Wali Lundy, RB Virginia

AFC NORTH

Cleveland Browns

12. Santonio Holmes, WR Ohio State
43. Kamerion Wimbley, OLB Florida State
78. Max Jean-Gilles, OG Georgia
108. Ray Edwards, DE Purdue
140. Steve Fifita, DT Utah
149. Dale Robinson, ILB Arizona State
172. Jonathan Orr, WR Wisconsin
204. Travis Leffew, OT Louisville

Baltimore Ravens

13. DeAngelo Williams, RB Memphis
44. Kelly Jennings, CB Miami
109. Dusty Dvoracek, DT Oklahoma
141. Freddie Roach, LB Alabama
173. Bruce Gradkowski, QB Toledo
205. Antarrious Williams, OLB Auburn

Cincinnati Bengals

24. Tamba Hali, DE Penn State
58. Jonathan Lewis, DT VaTech
90. Dwayne Slay, SS Texas Tech
120. Joel Klopfenstein, TE Colorado St.
152. Manase Hopoi, DT Washington
184. Paul Pinegar, QB Fresno State
216. Jamar Williams, OLB Arizona State

Pittsburgh Steelers

32. Chad Jackson, WR Florida
64. Gerald Riggs Jr, RB Tennessee
96. Rod Wright, DE Texas
128. Michael Robinson, ATH Penn St.
160. Roman Harper, S Alabama
192. Marvin Philip, C California
224. Tyler Everett, CB Ohio State

AFC SOUTH

Houston Texans

1. Reggie Bush, RB USC
33. Eric Winston, OT Miami
65. Elvis Dumervil, DE Louisville
66. (f/NO)- Mark Setterstrom, OG Minnesota
97. Will Blackmon CB Boston College
129. Mike Hass, WR Oregon St.
161. Tim Day, TE Oregon
193. Donovan Raiola, C Wisconsin

Tennessee Titans

3. Vince Young, QB Texas
39. Winston Justice, OT USC
102. Ryan Cook, C New Mexico
133. Darrel Hunter, CB Miami (OH)
163. Hank Baskett, WR New Mexico
195. Brandon Johnson, OLB Louisville

Jacksonville Jaguars

28. Laurence Maroney, RB Minnesota
60. DeMario Minter, CB Texas
92. Jason Allen, CB Tennessee
124. Brandon Williams, WR Wisconsin
156. Brian Iwuh, OLB Colorado
188. Melvin Oliver, DE LSU
220. Randy Hand, OT Florida

Indianapolis Colts

30. Brian Calhoun, RB Wisconsin
62. Davin Joseph, OG Oklahoma
94. Kevin Simon, OLB Tennessee
158. Willie Evans, DE Mississippi State
190. Terna Nande, OLB Miami(OH)
222. Pat Ross, C Boston College

AFC WEST

Oakland Raiders

6. AJ Hawk, OLB Ohio State
38. Gabe Watson, DT Michigan
69. Anthony Smith, S Syracuse
100. AJ Nicholson, OLB Florida St.
166. Dan Stevenson, OG Notre Dame
198. Marcus Maxey, CB Miami

San Diego Chargers

19. DeMeco Ryans, ILB Alabama
50. Charles Gordon, CB Kansas
81. Jahmile Addae, S WVU
115. Jabari Levey, OT South Carolina
147. JD Runnels, FB Oklahoma
176. Cameron Vaughn, ILB LSU
177. Todd Watkins, WR BYU
179. Brett Basanez, QB Northwestern
211. Will Allen, OG Texas

Kansas City Chiefs

20. Jonathan Scott, OT Texas
52. Sinorice Moss, WR Miami
84. Charlie Whitehurst, QB Clemson
148. James Wyche, DE Syracuse
178. Na'Shan Goddard, OG South Carolina
180. Tim Jennings, CB Georgia
212. Justin Holland, QB Colorado State

Denver Broncos

22. (f/Was)- Brodrick Bunkley, DT Florida State
29. Darnell Bing, S USC
61. Parys Haralson, DE Tennessee
93. Demetrius Williams, WR Oregon
118. Greg Eslinger, C Minnesota
125. Darrell Hackney, QB Alabama Birmingham
157. Mike Bell, RB Arizona
189. James Anderson, OLB VaTech

NFC EAST

Philadelphia Eagles

14. Mathias Kiwanuka, DE Boston College
45. Marcedes Lewis, TE UCLA
76. Jesse Mahelona, DT Tennessee
110. Devin Hester, ATH Miami
114. Anthony Schlegel, MLB Ohio St.
126. Eric Henderson, DE Georgia Tech
142. Cedric Humes, RB Virginia Tech
206. Scott Paxson, DT Penn State

Dallas Cowboys

18. Marcus McNeill, OT Auburn
49. Donte Whitner, S Ohio State
80. Taitusi Lutui, OG USC
146. Jason Avant, WR Michigan
174. Gerrick McPhearson, CB Maryland
210. Nick Leaders, DE Iowa State

Washington Redskins

54. Abdul Hodge, MLB Iowa
86. Greg Blue, SS Georgia
150. Cody Douglas, OG Tennessee
182. Johnny Jolly, DT Texas A&M
187. Charles Sharon, WR Bowling Green
214. Matt Lentz, OG Michigan

New York Giants

25. Ashton Youboty, CB Ohio State
59. Jeremy Trueblood, OT Boston College
91. Orien Harris, DT Miami
121. Greg Lee, WR Pittsburgh
153. Travis Williams, OLB Auburn
185. Marcus Hudson, DB NC State
217. Jerious Norwood, RB Mississippi State

NFC NORTH

Green Bay Packers

5. Mario Williams, DE NC State
36. Nick Mangold, C Ohio State
67. Charles Spencer, OG Pittsburgh
99. Kyle Williams, DT LSU
131. Lawrence Vickers, FB Colorado
165. DonTrell Moore, RB New Mexico
197. Trent Bray, OLB Oregon State

Detroit Lions

9. Chad Greenway, OLB Iowa
40. Darryl Tapp, DE VaTech
74. Ryan O'Callaghan, OT California
137. Drew Olsen, QB UCLA
169. Michael Toudouze, OT TCU
201. Leon Washington, RB Florida State

Minnesota Vikings

17. Bobby Carpenter, OLB Ohio State
48. Leonard Pope, TE Georgia
83. Maurice Drew, RB UCLA
113. Jason Spitz, OG Louisville
145. Clint Ingram, LB Oklahoma
209. DJ Shockley, QB Georgia

Chicago Bears

26. Anthony Fasano, TE Notre Dame
57. Antonio Cromartie, CB Florida State
88. Pat Watkins, S Florida State
122. Martin Nance, WR Miami (OH)
154. Spencer Havner, OLB UCLA
186. Adam Stenavich, OT Michigan
218. Troy Bienemann, TE Washington State

NFC SOUTH

New Orleans Saints

2. Matt Leinart, QB USC
34. D'Qwell Jackson, MLB Maryland
98. David Pittman, CB Northwestern State
130. Montavious Stanley, DT Louisville
162. Jon Alston, OLB Stanford

Atlanta Falcons

15. Jimmy Williams, CB VaTech
47. Daniel Bullocks, S Nebraska
79. Mark Anderson, DE Alabama
111. Joe Toledo, OT Washington
143. Jerome Harrison, RB Washington St.
175. Keon Jackson, S Toledo
207. David Anderson, WR Colorado State

Tampa Bay Buccaneers

23. Ernie Sims, OLB Florida State
55. Stanley McClover, DE Auburn
87. Travis Wilson, WR Oklahoma
119. Richard Marshall, CB Fresno St.
151. Paul McQuistan, OT Weber State
215. Rashad Butler, OT Miami

Carolina Panthers

27. Claude Wroten, DT LSU
56. Derek Hagan, WR Arizona State
89. Nate Salley, S Ohio State
123. Taurean Henderson, RB Texas Tech
155. Mike Degory, C Florida
219. Anthony Mix, WR Auburn
221. Albert Toeaina, OT Tennessee

NFC WEST

San Francisco 49ers

7. Tye Hill, CB Clemson
37. Ko Simpson, FS South Carolina
68. Dominique Byrd, TE USC
101. Victor Adeyanju, DE Indiana
134. Ryan LaCasse, DE/OLB Syracuse
167. Garrett Mills, FB Tulsa
183. Reggie McNeal, ATH Texas A&M
199. Omar Gaither, OLB Tennessee

Arizona Cardinals

10. Michael Huff, DB Texas
41. Daryn Colledge, OT Boise State
72. Babatunde Oshinowo, DT Stanford
106. TJ Williams, TE North Carolina St.
138. Omar Jacobs, QB Bowling Green
170. Gerris Wilkinson, OLB Georgia Tech
202. Damien Rhodes, RB Syracuse

St. Louis Rams

11. Vernon Davis, TE Maryland
46. Thomas Howard, OLB UTEP
77. Jonathan Joseph, CB South Carolina
107. Frostee Rucker, DE USC
139. Fred Matua, OG USC
171. Tim McGarigle, MLB Northwestern
203. Jarvis Herring, S Florida

Seattle Seahawks

31. Jonathan McCargo, DT NC State
63. Joseph Addai, RB LSU
95. Kevin Boothe, OG Cornell
127. Matt Bernstein, FB Wisconsin
159. Jovon Bouknight, WR Wyoming
191. Quincy Butler, CB TCU
223. Tony Palmer, OG Missouri

Matt_Alkire
02-13-2006, 02:37 PM
By the way, a quote from our board that Tommy Lawlor heard on the radio concerning Casserly and the Texans....

I heard Texans GM Charley Casserly on the radio this morning. He said that he's already gotten a call from one team inquiring about the #1 pick. He had promised the team not to mention their name. I found this interesting because normally teams will wait to open these types of talks at the Combine. Maybe someone was just getting idea of what the pick would cost or maybe a team was really interested and wanted to get the ball rolling early.

Charley did say he would trade the pick for the right offer. One of the keys would be to only fall back a few spots. I don't think he'd want to go below pick 6, but that's just a guess on my part.

The Preacher
02-13-2006, 04:57 PM
Wow if Tennessee gets Winston Justice in the second I would be amazed. With his athleticism I would almost want a second trade down to 13-18 and grab him plus an extra 2nd. I don't know what the local o-line gurus think about Justice but if he could net an extra 2nd it might be worth it.

jgl35
02-13-2006, 05:07 PM
NDIRISH,Why Kiwa over Hali for the birds?

Matt_Alkire
02-13-2006, 05:58 PM
NDIRISH,Why Kiwa over Hali for the birds?

Whoa, pulling out my EMB name...:)

Who are ya?

I think Hali fits what we like at RDE more to be honest however, I don't see him being worth the 14th pick. We typically go for the Jerome McDougle, Hugh Douglas types. Kiwi obviously isn't that. So, the reason would simply be that Mathias is more talented with better upside. Could eventually take over for Kearse on the left side.

Matt_Alkire
02-13-2006, 06:01 PM
Wow if Tennessee gets Winston Justice in the second I would be amazed. With his athleticism I would almost want a second trade down to 13-18 and grab him plus an extra 2nd. I don't know what the local o-line gurus think about Justice but if he could net an extra 2nd it might be worth it.

I actually thought Justice looked bad at times this season at RT, but only because he looks to be better fit for LT. That's a good reason to look rough.

I think he needs to get and play stronger at the next level. Not a really physical guy. Not much of a hand punch. In the run game I see him as a guy who will need to work on awareness in the open field when trying to locate defenders. Often I thought he looked confused at the second level. I like my OLine with a nasty streak. I haven't seen that out of Winston.

Much rather have Eric Winston then Winston Justice if I were the Texans. Just my opinion though.

jgl35
02-13-2006, 06:35 PM
Whoa, pulling out my EMB name...:)

Who are ya?

I think Hali fits what we like at RDE more to be honest however, I don't see him being worth the 14th pick. We typically go for the Jerome McDougle, Hugh Douglas types. Kiwi obviously isn't that. So, the reason would simply be that Mathias is more talented with better upside. Could eventually take over for Kearse on the left side.
Just read, but never post on the EMB, thought I am an Eagles fan in Pa. This board is much more friendly, so I hang out here. No TATERS over here. Texas friendly is a fact. Thanks for your insight, and hang around here, they have some good people.

beerlover
02-13-2006, 08:39 PM
your work on this board alone is worth the $5 :money:

one thing that really strikes me are two things, the top of the board is light, meaning top 10 picks are worth their weight in gold and two there is alot of talent spread even into the 5th round, maybe not starter material but future players in the league.

makes the option of trading down for the Texans tempting but also dangerous :twocents:

kastofsna
02-13-2006, 09:08 PM
that'd be a helluva draft for houston. and a great one for new england, too

Matt_Alkire
02-13-2006, 09:14 PM
your work on this board alone is worth the $5 :money:

one thing that really strikes me are two things, the top of the board is light, meaning top 10 picks are worth their weight in gold and two there is alot of talent spread even into the 5th round, maybe not starter material but future players in the league.

makes the option of trading down for the Texans tempting but also dangerous :twocents:

Thanks for the kind words.:)

I've heard alot of people say the Texans need to rebuild. I disagree heavily.

I look at that team and you have a promising young QB, a solid RB, a future stud at WR, a dynamic young return specialist. Add a solid offensive line and another playmaker to the offense and it's playoff quality once the chemistry gets going in my opinion.

The defense is a question mark for me. We'll need to see the shakeout once it goes into a 43. Obviously the DT position is strong. Need to add some pass rushers at DE although, I do think Babin and Peek could edgerush while having Gary Walker as a run stopping LDE. I would imagine Kailee Wong would play MIKE, Greenwood at WIL and Orr/Peek at SAM? I can't say I'm really familiar with the LB crew as much as I should be. Dunta is a promising young player. Add some strength to that secondary.

I am of the firm belief that the Texans could have a .500 team with good offseason moves. That may seem overly optimistic, but I just remember what they were a few years ago before the bottom out. 8-8 in the AFC South is impressive for a young team in my opinion. It's not as if they're in the NFC North.

Matt_Alkire
02-13-2006, 09:16 PM
that'd be a helluva draft for houston. and a great one for new england, too

How did you feel about the Fins draft? I may be in the minority, but I'd go something other then QB in the 1st round if I were the Dolphins. Perhaps get myself a player like Tye Hill or Jimmy Williams if I could. Address QB in free agency. Select a LT to get Damien McIntosh back on the bench where he belongs if there was a player there I liked.

Just not a big fan of Jay Cutler to be honest. Think the kid is a bit...well....whiny.

Xman
02-13-2006, 09:49 PM
By the way, a quote from our board that Tommy Lawlor heard on the radio concerning Casserly and the Texans....

I heard Texans GM Charley Casserly on the radio this morning. He said that he's already gotten a call from one team inquiring about the #1 pick. He had promised the team not to mention their name. I found this interesting because normally teams will wait to open these types of talks at the Combine. Maybe someone was just getting idea of what the pick would cost or maybe a team was really interested and wanted to get the ball rolling early.

Charley did say he would trade the pick for the right offer. One of the keys would be to only fall back a few spots. I don't think he'd want to go below pick 6, but that's just a guess on my part.

I heard that also.
I think it would be hard to trade down more than 5 spots because of the cost to the other team (basically all their picks plus picks next year according to the draft point chart). But, if I didn't have a player targeted (Brick/Mario/Hawk) in that range, I would keep moving down. We have enough holes to get value anywhere in the first - and a few more 2nd round picks (and 3rds or future picks) would help fill a few of the holes.

Personally, I would love to get Huff in the 10-15 range. If he is gone, then that stud TE, Davis. Otherwise I would move down to the bottom of the first if I could. After the top 10 (and Huff/Davis), I would prefer to see who drops and snap them up around pick 25 - CB/S/DE/LB.

Denver's 22 & 29 are close to equal value for the 7th or 8th pick. If we dealt down to the 4-10, then add or get picks to make it even, I would love to do that. (even with the top 10 and Huff/Davis gone, there will be talent there)

Matt_Alkire
02-13-2006, 11:25 PM
The way I see it for the Texans they're going to want to come away with Bush, Williams or Ferguson. Either of those 3 give them an elite player that they could really use. I wrote an article for our site about Reggie Bush and marketing. I'll post it here.

Matt_Alkire
02-13-2006, 11:26 PM
Article I wrote for our site a while back....

When talking around the water cooler with your buddies about what player your local team will draft this coming April one thing I wanted to point out to keep in mind while looking over 40 times, bench reps and your team's specific needs is that the NFL is a business and money is the bottom line in a league that has a total value of over 20 billion dollars. I'm talking about the marketability of player that's available and how that can effect how a team will look at a particular prospect. While talent and potential are two of the most important things to consider when evaluating an NFL prospect, while teams will look for that next stud to send them flying into the playoffs, they will also have to keep in mind that a certain player could put butts in the seats and jerseys on their fans backs.

Don't believe it has anything to do with it? Keep an open mind and think about it. In 2004 most would agree that the top three Quarterback prospects in the draft were Phillip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger and Eli Manning. All three of them were talented and if you asked 10 qualified people who the best of the three was you'd get a pretty equal number of votes for each player. One however, became worth it for the New York Giants to trade away two first round picks for. That player was Eli Manning. Now Eli was certainly a great QB at the collegiate level and had the pedigree to boot with a brother and father with NFL experience however, after watching all three prospects I couldn't say with a good conscience that Eli Manning was a full first round's pick more valuable then either player on skillset alone. Infact, I woudl have argued that he wasn't the best prospect of the three. In the media driven jungles of New York, Philadelphia and Washington high profile players become the faces of not only a football team, but an entire city. Some will say that the Giants were more inclined to Manning because of Ernie Accorsi's relationship with Archie Manning. Maybe so but, I've never had a family friend invest $50 million in me because my Dad let's them cheat in golf on Saturdays. The Giants secured themselves a Manning. The kid brother of NFL superstar Peyton Manning and the son of the heralded Archie Manning. The secured themselves the biggest name in the draft and whether or not Eli turns out to be a great player or not, they secured themselves at least the perception that "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree". Most of all, they excited a fan base in a city with a population of over 8 million people. 8 million potential fans that buy jerseys, season tickets, beer cozies, bumper stickers, shirts, and just about anything else with the Big Blue logo on it. They not only selected their future franchise QB but, a player who promotes himself by merely last name and family reputation alone. ESPN doesn't do specials on Ben and Ken Roethlisberger throwing the pigskin around on Sundays. They do however, fill your TV screen with Peyton, Eli and Archie reflecting on backyard BBQs around the family coffee table. Eli Manning was one of the more marketable players to enter the draft in years and the Giants pounced on him. Whether or not you think it was a great move to trade the picks they did for him is certainly a valid question however, you cannot question that Eli took a franchise that was in the basement and brought it to the forefront of the national media whether or not their record immediately reflected it.

Fast forward to the 2006 draft. This is a draft that will feature on of the most talented players to have ever played a snap of football at the collegiate level. He's electric, he's exciting, he's Reggie Bush. You here all of the comparisons. Sayers, Sweetness, Faulk, heck I'm pretty sure some of the Fresno State players may think he's Jesus Christ after the 500+ total yards he put up on them this season. My favorite quote about Reggie Bush was from Washington State Head Coach Bill Doba who said, "If you've got a linebacker covering him you might as well start singing their fight song." Bush isn't a RB, he's a weapon. He's agile, versatile and simply put, amazing. I'll stop there as you've heard enough about him this year I'm sure. That's my point actually. The media hype surround not only Reggie's amazing play but, USC's quest for a threepeat was overwhelming this year. ESPN had a daily segment on USC, an interactive television/web poll of the greatest teams in the history of the game and how they'd be smacked around by these Trojans, it was USCPN this year. Many argue that Ricky Williams had simliar hype entering the draft in 1999. I can't agree with that and don't think it's close in fact. USC hype is Reggie Bush hype and vice versa.

The team that selects Bush in April will have one of the most exciting players to ever touch a football on their team. They'll have lightning in a bottle. I'm a "point of attack" type of guy. Meaning, my belief is that you need to be solid on both sides of your line in order to win. While a player like D'Brickshaw Ferguson and his awesome pass protection would excite me, I would never be able to pass up on Bush. People don't buy offensive line jerseys, they buy Michael Vick jerseys. They'll buy Reggie Bush jerseys. They come to the games to see Peyton Manning. They'll buy season tickets to see Reggie Bush. Add all that talent to the marketing explosion he would create and he's a can't miss prospect. So, if a GM is willing to pass on a prospect with Hall of Fame potential and that can excite your fanbase (and their wallet hands) this coming April then so be it but, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the GM to do it.

-Matt Alkire

texman8
02-14-2006, 12:32 AM
Great insight,Matt. Very good mock for Texans....would like to get a LB somewhere in draft. We have alot of square pegs at LB that don't fit our round holes (4-3)

kastofsna
02-14-2006, 01:04 PM
How did you feel about the Fins draft? I may be in the minority, but I'd go something other then QB in the 1st round if I were the Dolphins. Perhaps get myself a player like Tye Hill or Jimmy Williams if I could. Address QB in free agency. Select a LT to get Damien McIntosh back on the bench where he belongs if there was a player there I liked.

Just not a big fan of Jay Cutler to be honest. Think the kid is a bit...well....whiny.
i'm tired of addressing QB in free agency. time to draft one. if cutler is there you take him (unless huff is there). tye hill is good, but he doesn't fit nick saban's brand of big physical corners at all. jimmy williams would be great, but antonio cromartie would be perfect. hope he's healthty. mcintosh sucks, and i'd have no problem starting a rookie LT over there. winston justice is a possibility (although it's tough to guage how he'd perform when moved over to the left side--still, miami has the best o-line coach in the league, i think he can coach him right). we drafted anthony alabi in the 5th round last year, and i think he can play, as reports are the staff likes him

how is cutler whiny?

Matt_Alkire
02-14-2006, 01:29 PM
how is cutler whiny?

Nearly every Vanderbilt game I saw this season seemed to be a soap opera in regards to Jay and his parents, particularly his father. Last year his father apparently walked into the coach's office at Vandy and demanded that they stop running Jay so much because of a lack of protection on his offensive line. This year, they changed the offense and kept him in the pocket more. Jay actually sent in a request last year to the draft committee to see where he would be selected and was given a 4th or 5th round grade which is the only reason he stayed in school from reports I've heard from numberous sources. His father was shown whining and screaming constantly in games when Jay was hit or sacked and just seems to be a pompous ***. In the Florida game you can watch him taunting the crowd late in the game by doing the Gator Chomp at the crowd from his seat. Very mature for an Indiana State Trooper. Jay comes off as a clown to me at times. Just watching his Senior Bowl interview struck me funny. Seemed disengenuious during the interview. He just strikes me the wrong way at all times. I can't say I'd want him on my team. The last QB I got this feeling from was JP Losman.

Scooter
02-14-2006, 01:40 PM
maybe i just missed him, but do you not have david thomas (TE Texas) making it before the supplimental picks? it's a little favoritism because they're texas guys, but i'd like to see thomas & dwayne slay here. they compare favorably to the styles of lynch & putzier, who are key assets in denver that kubiak's familiar with. great day for the texans though, despite me being an adamant trade downer, and great job putting it together.

also, very well written article. i truely hate that it's accurate because we saw last season that just because we've got 2 top three picks who sell jerseys, they alone doesnt fill the seats or quiet the boos on a losing team. i would like to point out however, that during the first couple seasons i actually did see lots of folks with boselli jerseys.

Great insight,Matt. Very good mock for Texans....would like to get a LB somewhere in draft. We have alot of square pegs at LB that don't fit our round holes (4-3)

another reason to look more heavily at trading down. to find a starting lb (sims, carpenter, etc), we'd really need an available pick in the late first or early second rounds. something that would be difficult to do if the lone pick we have in that area is already spoken for (O-Line).

travfrancis
02-14-2006, 01:47 PM
while Bush is extremely marketable, there is no question that VY is even more so for the Houston Texans.

MorKnolle
02-14-2006, 02:14 PM
while Bush is extremely marketable, there is no question that VY is even more so for the Houston Texans.

There is no question that Vince is currently more marketable in the Houston area and maybe Texas as a whole, but on a national scale I would not say Vince is more marketable than Reggie, probably the other way around if anything.

travfrancis
02-14-2006, 02:15 PM
^ I would agree with that (although i would exclude the "maybe" before "..Texas as a whole")

MorKnolle
02-14-2006, 02:31 PM
*Edited

There is no question that Vince is currently more marketable in the Houston area and probably Texas as a whole (especially the corridor between Houston/San Antonio/Austin/Dallas), but on a national scale I would not say Vince is more marketable than Reggie, probably the other way around if anything.

Matt_Alkire
02-14-2006, 02:44 PM
@Scooter-

David Thomas is a horrible blocker. I hate being so drastic to one side or another talking about skillsets, but he's brutal. Does alot of other things very well and could certainly be drafted, but his blocking scares the hell out of me. I don't see the Putzier comparison at all with Thomas to be honest.

Slay is a guy I had going to the Texans in our last mock. I do agree with the Lynch comparison. They do have some similiarities.

@travfrancis-

While I agree Vince Young's marketability would also be high for the Texans I don't see him as near the prospect that Reggie Bush is. A player like Reggie doesn't come along often. While Vince Young is a great athlete he leaves alot to be desired with the passing aspect of his game. I don't see anyway the Texans draft him after paying out the roster bonus to David Carr. At this point I don't see QB as an option for them. On a national scale I don't think Young is nearly as marketable as Bush regardless of how great a talent he is. Obviously in Texas that's not going to be the case.

powerfuldragon
02-14-2006, 02:50 PM
While I agree Vince Young's marketability would also be high for the Texans I don't see him as near the prospect that Reggie Bush is. A player like Reggie doesn't come along often. While Vince Young is a great athlete he leaves alot to be desired with the passing aspect of his game. I don't see anyway the Texans draft him after paying out the roster bonus to David Carr. At this point I don't see QB as an option for them. On a national scale I don't think Young is nearly as marketable as Bush regardless of how great a talent he is. Obviously in Texas that's not going to be the case.


Wow... thats the first unbiased opinion on the bush/young drama i've heard all day.

travfrancis
02-14-2006, 02:54 PM
I don't see him as near the prospect that Reggie Bush is. A player like Reggie doesn't come along often. While Vince Young is a great athlete he leaves alot to be desired with the passing aspect of his game.

and a player like vince young does? how many 6-5 233lb qbs that run a 4.42, have a strong and accurate arm, and unmatched intangibles (desire to be a winner/work ethic/leadership skills/clutchness/character) have you seen? we've never seen a prospect like vince young enter the draft.

and he does not leave a lot to be desired with the passing aspect of his game. he was the best passer in the nation last year, and like i said before his arm is strong and accurate.

you mentioned bush's 500 yard performance vs fresno state, but i guess vince's 500 yard game vs oklahoma st does nothing for you? what about his 467 yards vs USC in the national championship game? what about being the first qb in the history of college football to throw for 3000 yards and rush for 1000 yards in the same season?

Vinny
02-14-2006, 02:55 PM
While I agree Vince Young's marketability would also be high for the Texans I don't see him as near the prospect that Reggie Bush is. A player like Reggie doesn't come along often. While Vince Young is a great athlete he leaves alot to be desired with the passing aspect of his game. I don't see anyway the Texans draft him after paying out the roster bonus to David Carr. At this point I don't see QB as an option for them. On a national scale I don't think Young is nearly as marketable as Bush regardless of how great a talent he is. Obviously in Texas that's not going to be the case.It's what you do in the NFL that matters...and superstar QB's market better than superstar RB's if they both reach their potential. I'd equate it to LaDanian and Vick. Vick has gotten more exposure as a NFL QB than LaDanian gets as a NFL running back even with Tomlinson being better at his position than Vick is at his. Young is a more refined passer than Vick coming out of College, and Tomlinson is a dominant running back...something Bush will become as well most likely. What these guys did in College will only take them so far....but if all things are equal, Young will be the bigger media superstar long term.

F-minus67
02-14-2006, 02:58 PM
Wow, I love this draft. It fills in a lot of problems and has us grabing some good players.

Matt_Alkire
02-14-2006, 04:06 PM
Double post

Matt_Alkire
02-14-2006, 04:07 PM
and a player like vince young does? how many 6-5 233lb qbs that run a 4.42, have a strong and accurate arm, and unmatched intangibles (desire to be a winner/work ethic/leadership skills/clutchness/character) have you seen? we've never seen a prospect like vince young enter the draft.

and he does not leave a lot to be desired with the passing aspect of his game. he was the best passer in the nation last year, and like i said before his arm is strong and accurate.

you mentioned bush's 500 yard performance vs fresno state, but i guess vince's 500 yard game vs oklahoma st does nothing for you? what about his 467 yards vs USC in the national championship game? what about being the first qb in the history of college football to throw for 3000 yards and rush for 1000 yards in the same season?

First of all, there's no reason to get touchy about it. I sense a whole lot of angst in your post. I have no vested interest in either Vince Young or Reggie Bush and think they're both great prospects.:)

If Vince Young runs a 4.42 I'd be very surprised. Since he won't be running, throwing or doing anything at the combine from what we've heard we'll never know as Pro Day numbers aren't as accurate as an electronically timed 40 yard dash. Vince is a bit of a long strider. Picks up a ton of yards when he gets in the open field, but certainly doesn't have the agility to make people miss like Michael Vick does. Of course, he does have the strength to run over them though.

I'd agree that Young is a unique prospect. For all of his awesome athletic ability you can raise question marks as well though. He runs a spread option attack and takes 99% of his snaps in shotgun. That's not something that he'll do in the NFL often. He's got a bit of a sidearm delivery. He drops his arm before release and carries at his hips at times. His mechanics leave alot to be desired. His numbers suggest great accuracy, but the offense he runs doesn't call for alot of difficult reads. The point is that while all correctable, he's got alot of things he'll need to work on at the next level. He won't be able to out-athlete everyone.

I heavily disagree he was the best passer in the country last year. Leinart is clearly a better pure passer then Young. Vince was certainly very, very effecient, but there is a big difference between effeciency and excellence.

Vince's performance against Oklahoma State doesn't do anything for me. It's Oklahoma State. His performances against USC and Michigan were mind boggling though. He's a leader, seems to have a great personality and is a clutch player. Those intangibles are very underrated.

In the intangible department I'd actually take Vince over Matt Leinart. Athleticism obviously wouldn't be a contest either.:)

Matt_Alkire
02-14-2006, 04:09 PM
It's what you do in the NFL that matters...and superstar QB's market better than superstar RB's if they both reach their potential. I'd equate it to LaDanian and Vick. Vick has gotten more exposure as a NFL QB than LaDanian gets as a NFL running back even with Tomlinson being better at his position than Vick is at his. Young is a more refined passer than Vick coming out of College, and Tomlinson is a dominant running back...something Bush will become as well most likely. What these guys did in College will only take them so far....but if all things are equal, Young will be the bigger media superstar long term.

All true. There are alot of ways to look at it.

My one bit of input here is that Tomlinson never had the amount of popularity at the collegiate level that Reggie Bush did.

travfrancis
02-14-2006, 05:41 PM
He runs a spread option attack and takes 99% of his snaps in shotgun. That's not something that he'll do in the NFL often

so did a lot of other successful qbs in the nfl. steve mcnair and ben roethlisberger played in a spread offense in college. i'm sure there are a lot of other examples as well, i really just don't see this being an issue. i mean seriously how many times have you ever head of a qb in the nfl having problems under center, because he took most of his snaps in college out of the gun? i've never heard it once.

i got the 4.42 number from vince, he said thats what he runs, i think its pretty clear he has 4.4 speed.

Matt_Alkire
02-14-2006, 10:23 PM
@travfrancis-

I watched the Air McNair show quite often. Good memories.

Moving from shotgun to under center is certainly a big issue. As far as you not ever hearing of it being a problem I don't want to be callous, but I've never not heard of it being a concern. I don't know if you ever played QB (I was a TE and DE myself), but ask any QB and they'll tell you the incredible difference between the two. Different mechanics, different reads, different footwork, different timing, the game becomes faster, things are more hectic. Just a world of difference. Can it be done? Of course. You're certainly correct that alot of players do it. Again, I think you're being a bit defensive. I'm not saying Vince can't or won't. I'm saying there will be an adjustment period for him.

Playing in a shotgun simplifies things for a QB. You have extra time to make reads. You don't have the timing that you have dropping back. Learning to take a 5 step drop and throw a timing route is a difficult process. Getting a snap exchange is just the surface of it. QBs coming out of shotgun typically display mechanical and footwork problems. That's well documented. These are things they need to unlearn and then be taught to do properly in the NFL.

NFL scouts and personnel people do the same thing I was taught to do. "Write what you see". There are no assumptions. Michael Vick doesn't run a 4.34 40 yard dash until they see him do it. Donovan McNabb doesn't have a strong arm until they see him throw that 60 yard fade route. Chester Pitts doesn't have a strong hand punch until they see him show it. So on and so forth.

Take Alex Smith last year for example. Alex and Aaron Rodgers were battling for the top QB spot before the draft. Alot of concern with Alex is whether or not he could throw and operate from under center. He had a brilliant Pro Day and his stock flew up. At that point just about anyone had him as their top QB prospect. Still, Alex struggled this year. Here's a quote from San Francisco's player personnel VP:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_52_229/ai_n15981949#continue


What's more, the league can't look to colleges for immediate help; too many schools are using spread formations with quarterbacks working from the shotgun instead of from behind center, which drastically inhibits their readiness for the NFL From the current crop of draftable quarterbacks, seniors Matt Leinart of USC and Jay Cutler of Vanderbilt are solid NFL prospects. After that, it's bleak.

"If we think we are going to find a lot of replacements from college, we are fooling ourselves," says Scot McCloughan, the 49ers' vice president of player personnel. "Colleges are putting athletes at quarterback who can run and scramble and make plays from the spread look, not dropback passers. So these guys are not being polished. When they get with us, they need more training, and that takes time."

That's what San Francisco has discovered about Smith, the top pick in last April's draft who worked from Utah's spread offense. The 49ers still believe Smith will be a standout, but his rookie season has been a disaster. His development stalled by a knee injury, he has made five starts and has not thrown a touchdown pass but has 10 interceptions and a horrid 26.6 rating. It's difficult for him to progress quickly considering he entered training camp still uncomfortable behind center.

Byron Leftwich was another player who recently had alot of trouble making the adjustment to playing under center. The list goes on and on and on. Again, alot of players make this transition and become great NFL QBs eventually, but there is a learning curve. While a QB who took snaps under center may take a year to develop a guy who was in shotgun may take two.

I look at Vince Young and I see an awesome athlete with great size. He's got a strong arm, he's been an efficient QB, he's got intangibles and his upside is tremendous. However, he'll have a tough transition (as do all collegiate QBs) to play at the next level. On top of that, he'll need to be broken down and re-built with alot of his mechanics.

Mack Brown made a statement in an interview this year that the difference between Vince "then and now" was that they "gave up with him and let him play his game". I don't want to read into that, but what did they give up on? Did they give up on trying to better his mechanics? Did they give up on trying to teach him to make better reads? I can't really answer that. Mack obviously didn't mean it in a detrimental way, but the statement bears some question.

As far as Vince's speed goes, I could careless. As I mentioned, I don't think he runs a 4.4. However, if he runs a 4.16 it doesn't change my opinion on him. If he runs a 4.6 it doesn't change my opinion of him. I've seen what he can do and it's awesome. Timed speed means very little to me and frankly, means even less in regards to a QB. Donovan McNabb ran a 4.6 and is an excellent scrambler. Michael Vick ran a 4.3 and is an excellent scrambler.

I've seen what Vince can do with his legs. That's not a concern of mine. What I want to see is what he can do with his arm playing under center. His ProDay will answer alot of questions with him. I do think it's a poor decision he's made not to throw at the NFL Combine. That puts alot of pressure on his ProDay. Just don't understand why alot of kids do that. If you screw up at the combine you get a "make up test" at your ProDay. If you screw up at your ProDay, you're in a bit more of a drastic situation.

If he has a ProDay where he looks great under center I think it will do alot for his stock come April.

All this said, for me he's the #2 QB prospect in the class. That's not saying he won't be a better QB then Matt Leinart as he certainly has much more upside, but I write what I see. That's the way I was taught by people who have been doing this for a looong time.

Dunta_23
02-14-2006, 10:46 PM
Great Post ^

Matt_Alkire
02-14-2006, 11:59 PM
Great Post ^

Thank you.

kastofsna
02-15-2006, 10:47 AM
Nearly every Vanderbilt game I saw this season seemed to be a soap opera in regards to Jay and his parents, particularly his father. Last year his father apparently walked into the coach's office at Vandy and demanded that they stop running Jay so much because of a lack of protection on his offensive line. This year, they changed the offense and kept him in the pocket more. Jay actually sent in a request last year to the draft committee to see where he would be selected and was given a 4th or 5th round grade which is the only reason he stayed in school from reports I've heard from numberous sources. His father was shown whining and screaming constantly in games when Jay was hit or sacked and just seems to be a pompous ***. In the Florida game you can watch him taunting the crowd late in the game by doing the Gator Chomp at the crowd from his seat. Very mature for an Indiana State Trooper. Jay comes off as a clown to me at times. Just watching his Senior Bowl interview struck me funny. Seemed disengenuious during the interview. He just strikes me the wrong way at all times. I can't say I'd want him on my team. The last QB I got this feeling from was JP Losman.
personally i love it that his father did the gator chomp. and although HE may be too whiny, i haven't seen that from cutler. there's no doubt he's cocky; every division 1A school wanted him to play safety, but he wanted to be a quarterback (exact same story for brett favre). roethlisberger is pretty cocky as well. i agree that losman comes off as sort of inhuman, but i haven't seen this from cutler.

Vinny
02-15-2006, 11:06 AM
Vince can play under center (http://jcdenton.unmatchedmedia.com/UTvUM04-TonyJeffrey-Catch(DivX).avi) (you will need divx), and this clip shows him dropping back, checking down, then passing up the easy dump option (cough, cough, *david carr would have hit the dump pass* cough) hitting the mid range WR in coverage with a laser. Sure, there will be an adjustment period...but it's wildly overstated. I've probably seen 30 of his 32 games and you just don't need to throw the ball much with huge leads (The Vince led Texas offense averaged 50 points a game), so there just isn't all that much data on him having to put the ball up in pressure situations...I think he blows them away in his workouts.

MorKnolle
02-15-2006, 11:23 AM
Vince played under center for maybe 10% of his college snaps. He had some success with it but he had problems with it too. Either way, this thread appears to have gotten off topic.

MorKnolle
02-15-2006, 11:25 AM
First of all, there's no reason to get touchy about it. I sense a whole lot of angst in your post. I have no vested interest in either Vince Young or Reggie Bush and think they're both great prospects.:)

If Vince Young runs a 4.42 I'd be very surprised. Since he won't be running, throwing or doing anything at the combine from what we've heard we'll never know as Pro Day numbers aren't as accurate as an electronically timed 40 yard dash. Vince is a bit of a long strider. Picks up a ton of yards when he gets in the open field, but certainly doesn't have the agility to make people miss like Michael Vick does. Of course, he does have the strength to run over them though.

I'd agree that Young is a unique prospect. For all of his awesome athletic ability you can raise question marks as well though. He runs a spread option attack and takes 99% of his snaps in shotgun. That's not something that he'll do in the NFL often. He's got a bit of a sidearm delivery. He drops his arm before release and carries at his hips at times. His mechanics leave alot to be desired. His numbers suggest great accuracy, but the offense he runs doesn't call for alot of difficult reads. The point is that while all correctable, he's got alot of things he'll need to work on at the next level. He won't be able to out-athlete everyone.

I heavily disagree he was the best passer in the country last year. Leinart is clearly a better pure passer then Young. Vince was certainly very, very effecient, but there is a big difference between effeciency and excellence.

Vince's performance against Oklahoma State doesn't do anything for me. It's Oklahoma State. His performances against USC and Michigan were mind boggling though. He's a leader, seems to have a great personality and is a clutch player. Those intangibles are very underrated.

In the intangible department I'd actually take Vince over Matt Leinart. Athleticism obviously wouldn't be a contest either.:)

I like this bolded statement, especially the part I underlined on it. Very true of football players and athletes in most sports.

Great posts btw, somehow I hadn't read thru your couple long ones on here until just now and you seem to know football quite well and it's nice having someone from outside the Vince/Reggie debate come in and give a well-educated, unbiased opinion.

LBC_Justin
02-15-2006, 12:24 PM
The way I see it for the Texans they're going to want to come away with Bush, Williams or Ferguson. Either of those 3 give them an elite player that they could really use. I wrote an article for our site about Reggie Bush and marketing. I'll post it here.I agree 100% with this post.

Matt, Welcome. I hope you stick around for a while. Nice the read stuff from people who actually know the game.

Matt_Alkire
02-15-2006, 01:12 PM
Vince can play under center (http://jcdenton.unmatchedmedia.com/UTvUM04-TonyJeffrey-Catch(DivX).avi) (you will need divx), and this clip shows him dropping back, checking down, then passing up the easy dump option (cough, cough, *david carr would have hit the dump pass* cough) hitting the mid range WR in coverage with a laser. Sure, there will be an adjustment period...but it's wildly overstated. I've probably seen 30 of his 32 games and you just don't need to throw the ball much with huge leads (The Vince led Texas offense averaged 50 points a game), so there just isn't all that much data on him having to put the ball up in pressure situations...I think he blows them away in his workouts.

I understand he can play under center. I don't feel it's "wildly overstated". Again, I'm going from the perspective of someone who does this for a living. Don't take that as a condescending remark, but moreso that it is a common concern among scouts and personnel guys alike in regards to all spread QBs.

Steve Spurrier's offenses punished people on a consistent basis for years using a spread. His QBs never did anything in the NFL. Points per game mean absolutely little to me when evaluating a QB. What I see him do does.

He could blow the scouts away in his private workouts. That still doesn't mean a whole lot. He'll need to prove he can do it in a game situation. Again, Alex Smith had a great workout and we saw how that turned out this season. Of course, that doesn't mean a whole lot as I'm sure he'll improve.

I'm not worried about Vince in pressure situations at all. He's proven he's money in the clutch. He took the Longhorns on his shoulder and won games often for them. That intangible he definitely has.

Matt_Alkire
02-15-2006, 01:13 PM
Either way, this thread appears to have gotten off topic.

Yeah, it has. To be frank, this is the only board I've ever seen people so touchy about Vince Young. Wonder why?:)

Vinny
02-15-2006, 01:18 PM
Yeah, it has. To be frank, this is the only board I've ever seen people so touchy about Vince Young. Wonder why?:)Most of it has to do with wanting to replace David Carr....but I can't speak for anyone but myself.

Matt_Alkire
02-15-2006, 02:46 PM
Most of it has to do with wanting to replace David Carr....but I can't speak for anyone but myself.

Ah, I thought it was some major home cookin' with Longhorn fans.

Vinny
02-15-2006, 04:58 PM
Ah, I thought it was some major home cookin' with Longhorn fans.I'm not a horn...but have been on the Vince wagon from before the Rose Bowl. Perhaps Carr comes around with great coaching and Vince becomes the first small forward to wash out of the NFL....I've seen a ton of drafts and it all comes out in the wash (field of play) soon enough. We do have a ton of homer posts though. No doubt about it. Good stuff Matt...

getting back to the mock...do you really think Cleveland goes WR again with Santonio Holmes in the first with the Lioins first round draft model sitting there a looking them in the mug?

Matt_Alkire
02-15-2006, 06:59 PM
I'm not a horn...but have been on the Vince wagon from before the Rose Bowl. Perhaps Carr comes around with great coaching and Vince becomes the first small forward to wash out of the NFL....I've seen a ton of drafts and it all comes out in the wash (field of play) soon enough. We do have a ton of homer posts though. No doubt about it. Good stuff Matt...

getting back to the mock...do you really think Cleveland goes WR again with Santonio Holmes in the first with the Lioins first round draft model sitting there a looking them in the mug?

Cleveland is an interesting situation. Don't know if you've heard, but apparently they don't think Braylon Edwards will be ready by next season and from some reports could miss it entirely. While I doubt that even if he's out until November that still leaves them with their wangs in their hands. Antonio Bryant is gone in free agency and they really don't have much behind him. Frisman Jackson did some things this year and Dennis Northcutt is...well, Dennis Northcutt.

Also, remember Phil Savage is now in Cleveland. I believe the Raven's personnel department was the best in the NFL since their start. Amazing job in the 1st round especially. McAllister, Ogden, Ray Lewis, Jamal Lewis, Heap, Suggs. Just ridiculously impressive. All Pro Bowlers.

Phil always talks about how much importance they put on what they see on the field rather then the combine and so forth. I'll excuse them for Kyle Boller.:confused:

I think they could look a number of different ways. If McNeill's back checks out they could look there. Could look CB. Could look WR. Could look LB. Never know with a new front office. If you look at it in terms of building for Charlie Frye you would have a great one two punch with Edwards and Holmes. Northcutt would be a nice 3rd option. Then of course you have Winslow if the ***** ever gets back on the field. (Not a Winslow fan. Would have instructed any team to pass on him and take Ben Watson)

threetoedpete
02-18-2006, 05:13 PM
Great Job Matt. Best thread in here in a long long time. Loved the mock ...after the third round. Winston fits perfectly. Another banged up guy
we hope will come around. We've got a collection of them one more won't hurt much.