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expwrlifter
02-11-2006, 01:52 PM
Hey,

can someone tell me how the press conference went yesterday. I live in Dallas and had to read about the horrible news that DC got his extension. Another sad day for the Texans. ... Did anyone ask the question about VY? And before I get the oh.. DC doenst have this and he doesnt have this... Well guys let inform of you something. I am a football coach by profession and I watched DC in action even before he touched the field as a Texan when he was at FSU.. Even when I learned the Texans were going to draft him I questioned that decision, now I really dont understand why they are doing what they are doing again. I hate to inform you but VY is a better player not just as a QB but as a player overall. I actually have seen him play in person and must say he is a natural. There is a saying "that no matter what sport you play if you are an athlete you will adjust to it and produce". Guys its a no brainer here DC is not a great QB and neither is VY at the Pro Level but give him his chance he has excelled in the other levels.. Let him sit and learn. ( Which is not bad considering you are going to pay RB the same amount if you draft him first and he wont get the same amount of touches that VY will get when he gets his turn) You are going to pay RB tons of money to get 15 carries a game and play in a rotation, what sense does that make? RB is more like a Marshall Faulk guy. He isnt a every down back and RB has been supspect to pass blocking. If he does go out in the slot or as a third receiver the NFL secondary will be able to bang him at the line or as we call combo him in cover 2 which makes it hard for him to get the ball. If he tries to go inside the LBS will hit him harder than he is felt before because he is not used to getting hit head on. Dont get me wrong I think RB is a great player but he doenst scare me as much as VY, because he (RB) can be contained as one guy where VY offers the pass as well as the run. You will hear people say you cant run the option in the NFL which is true, but its not the option he will need its the versatility he brings to the table. As a LB you cant come running at him because of his height he can drop it over your head to a Running Back and if you wait too long to attack him he will get yards on you because of his long strides. It just makes you a little more worried because you have to pick your poison. At least VY will learn and then touch the ball alot more than that. DC is in a no win situation all the way around. He will now have to be a superstar QB to live up to the extension. For all you VY haters you have no idea what you will be missing if he does not come to Houston. Again being a coach by profession having to prepare for him is harder than preparing for DC.. He is a dual threat and DC is not. It takes more time to prepare as well as change schemes for him. Its not as easy as you people think to prepare for teams each week. Alot of time goes into the games and its not XBOX or MADDEN, its real out there. And again VY is more of a threat than DC will ever be. Overall VY is just harder to prepare for and dont worry I dont like UT but VY just makes people around him better, something DC has never done in his four years. I know I will get plenty of feedback on this but trust me on this one... I hope the Texans have something up there sleeve because its not looking good ..... AGAIN

Tale Gator
02-11-2006, 01:58 PM
For the love of God -- paragraphs my man - paragraphs... :shocked

Darporini
02-11-2006, 02:05 PM
Did anyone ask the question about VY?AGAIN

Bob McNair said he was keeping all options open. He even alluded to San Diego's situation of having two top QBs (Brees and Rivers). So, who knows what is going to happen at the end of April!!

expwrlifter
02-11-2006, 02:06 PM
sorry new to the posting..:ok:

bigTEXan8
02-11-2006, 02:22 PM
Oh boy...
Another "I hate DC, VY can do no wrong" thread. I thought they were starting to die down, but silly me, I was wrong. :brickwall

expwrlifter
02-11-2006, 02:29 PM
No I dont hate DC as a person I just dont like him as our QB... he is not capable of being what you people think he will be. He didnt play very many good teams in college and had great stats but so did my college QB who plays in the league now (Tim Rattay). Pretty similiar stats actually. They even played in the same conference. (WAC).. Heck Timmy Chang played in the WAC and got all those records last year.. A

And as for VY he can do wrong and will when he first starts out. If you read in the post it states that he will learn like he did in HS and colllege. All players will adapt to there situation, and DC has had four years and still hasnt. He is not a horrible player (DC) I just think he needs a new start and Houston will not be the place because he will be under the microscope. Its not fair to him..

Nighthawk
02-11-2006, 02:36 PM
There is a saying "that no matter what sport you play if you are an athlete you will adjust to it and produce".

Good post. Hard to understand the Young-haters here. They seem to have the man-crush problem on Carr and any mention of replacing him with a better player riles them up. I'll be very sorry to see VY go to the Titans, but he will be a great player to watch in furture years.

texan279
02-11-2006, 02:39 PM
Good post. Hard to understand the Young-haters here. They seem to have the man-crush problem on Carr and any mention of replacing him with a better player riles them up. I'll be very sorry to see VY go to the Titans, but he will be a great player to watch in furture years.

How can you say Young is a better player than Carr when Young hasn't even stepped foot onto an NFL field?

Wolf
02-11-2006, 02:42 PM
If RB or VY is so great.. well they ought to "help" this team alot IF we try to trade down.. we should command a lot of picks for one of them. If TJ can net us an extra 3rd by moving down last year, I wonder what we could get for RB and VY moving off of the top spot

:stirpot:

FTR...I think both guys (RB/VY) are great athletes, but this team needs so such help on both sides of the ball that we all wouldn't have thought that 4 years later we are still looking for depth.

expwrlifter
02-11-2006, 02:45 PM
I agree with you on that.. what might make more sense if RB is a lock then we can trade down and get an extra pick and then probably choose 3rd or 4th.. I hear NO wants ML and the NYJ want RB so we can pick up another pick and then still get VY.

bigTEXan8
02-11-2006, 02:47 PM
No I dont hate DC as a person I just 1. dont like him as our QB... he is not capable of being what you people think he will be. He 2. didnt play very many good teams in college and had great stats but so did my college QB who plays in the league now (Tim Rattay). Pretty similiar stats actually. They even played in the same conference. (WAC).. Heck Timmy Chang played in the WAC and got all those records last year.. A

And as for VY he can do wrong and will when he first starts out. If you read in the post it states that he will learn like he did in HS and colllege. All players will adapt to there situation, and DC has had four years and still hasnt. He is not a horrible player (DC) 3. I just think he needs a new start and Houston will not be the place because he will be under the microscope. Its not fair to him..

1. That's what I'm talking about...sorry.

2. Niether did VY this year...he played in the overrated Big 12...OOOHHH.

3. I agree and disagree with you at the same time. I think that maybe a fresh start for DC would be a good thing, and tha'ts the part I agree with you with. But at the same time, is it wise to get rid of a player you have no clue about, which is what the Texans have in Carr? That's where I disagree. Also, no matter where DC plays, he'll always be under a microscope. Every player is under a microscope, that's how they keep or don't keep their job.

Wolf
02-11-2006, 02:52 PM
If we trade down and gain an extra pick next season.. I'd like to have this guy.(sorry for the highjack) if I am not mistaken he is like 6'2 220 lbs or so and runs 4.4

http://www.adpeterson.com/images/2005/games/09-03-05/ad_09_03_05_06.jpg


http://www.adpeterson.com/index.html


back to topic.. problem I have with RB is, yes he is a homerun hit, yet if we can't get DD enough push to get the 3rd and 1's or on the goal line get that extra yard. How is Bush going to do it???

LBC_Justin
02-11-2006, 03:03 PM
Hey,

can someone tell me how the press conference went yesterday. I live in Dallas and had to read about the horrible news that DC got his extension. Another sad day for the Texans. ... Did anyone ask the question about VY? And before I get the oh.. DC doenst have this and he doesnt have this... Well guys let inform of you something. 1. I am a football coach by profession and I watched DC in action even before he touched the field as a Texan when he was at FSU.. Even when I learned the Texans were going to draft him I questioned that decision, now I really dont understand why they are doing what they are doing again. I hate to inform you but VY is a better player not just as a QB but as a player overall. I actually have seen him play in person and must say he is a natural. There is a saying "that no matter what sport you play if you are an athlete you will adjust to it and produce". Guys its a no brainer here DC is not a great QB and neither is VY at the Pro Level but give him his chance he has excelled in the other levels.. Let him sit and learn. ( 2. Which is not bad considering you are going to pay RB the same amount if you draft him first and he wont get the same amount of touches that VY will get when he gets his turn) You are going to pay RB tons of money to get 15 carries a game and play in a rotation, what sense does that make? 3. RB is more like a Marshall Faulk guy. He isnt a every down back and RB has been supspect to pass blocking. If he does go out in the slot or as a third receiver the NFL secondary will be able to bang him at the line or as we call combo him in cover 2 which makes it hard for him to get the ball. If he tries to go inside the LBS will hit him harder than he is felt before because he is not used to getting hit head on. Dont get me wrong I think RB is a great player but he doenst scare me as much as VY, because he (RB) can be contained as one guy where VY offers the pass as well as the run. You will hear people say you cant run the option in the NFL which is true, but its not the option he will need its the versatility he brings to the table. As a LB you cant come running at him because of his height he can drop it over your head to a Running Back and if you wait too long to attack him he will get yards on you because of his long strides. It just makes you a little more worried because you have to pick your poison. At least VY will learn and then touch the ball alot more than that. DC is in a no win situation all the way around. He will now have to be a superstar QB to live up to the extension. 4. For all you VY haters you have no idea what you will be missing if he does not come to Houston. Again being a coach by profession having to prepare for him is harder than preparing for DC.. 5. He is a dual threat and DC is not. It takes more time to prepare as well as change schemes for him. Its not as easy as you people think to prepare for teams each week. Alot of time goes into the games and its not XBOX or MADDEN, its real out there. 6. And again VY is more of a threat than DC will ever be. Overall VY is just harder to prepare for and 7. dont worry I dont like UT but VY just makes people around him better, something DC has never done in his four years. I know I will get plenty of feedback on this but trust me on this one... I hope the Texans have something up there sleeve because its not looking good ..... AGAIN
Don't sell Carr short and don't over hype VY just yet.

1. Did you see David Carr's college stats they were amazing. He was the fastest QB, the strongest QB, had the best arm in the draft.

2. Running Backs don't get Quarterback money. Regardless of what position they are drafted in.

3. Marshal Faulk is an NFL MVP, took his team to TWO Superbowls (won 1), and was a big part of the his team being the #1 offense for three straight years. (If Reggie Bush is like that.....I'll take him in a heart beat.)

4. We also don't know what we are getting. No one knows how Vince Young will do in the NFL. He is a unique talent and is going to be asked to do A LOT of things he rarely or has NEVER done before. He is there for a Big Risk!! He is a great pick with the #3, #4 or #5 pick. But is not worth the #1 or #2 pick. Otherwise you would hear about how he is going to the Saints and not to the Titians.

5. Michael Vick and Michael Brooks are the only two QBs that are faster than David Carr currently starting in the NFL. You right DC is not as big of a dual threat as VY or those other two guys but the guy has wheels. You could even argue that VY isn't a great of a passer so he isn't that much of a dual threat. Yes he can pass but if you really watched him play his passing got results but they didn't look pretty.

6. The problem with a running QB is they only get slower as they get older. They are more likely to get injured. VY is a good passer but based on his passing ability alone he is not a Top QB prospect. Sorry.

7. I love UT. I even went to the Rosebowl. It was awesome.

GO TEXANS.

texarg
02-11-2006, 03:06 PM
How can you say Young is a better player than Carr when Young hasn't even stepped foot onto an NFL field?

excelente question.

stevo3883
02-11-2006, 03:35 PM
2. Niether did VY this year...he played in the overrated Big 12...OOOHHH.

.

Vince played and beat 2 teams in the top 4. including usc with a 34 game winning streak. wtf are you talking about trying to compare their college comp? did Carr even play a ranked team? did he win?

Wolf
02-11-2006, 03:51 PM
I thought fresno went on a run as "giant killers" on Carrs last season.. I maybe wrong though

Texans86
02-11-2006, 03:59 PM
Vince played and beat 2 teams in the top 4. including usc with a 34 game winning streak. wtf are you talking about trying to compare their college comp? did Carr even play a ranked team? did he win?

Yes Texas beat two of the top four teams this year (two of the best games I've ever seen. two hundred college kids in a dark room watching Vince toss a touchdown with 2 minutes left. Wow) However, no one can deny that the Big 12 had a bad season. OU was not as dominant as in the past for most of the season, and A&M got off to a bad start. Baylor and OSU weren't great either. The Big 12 was just weaker than is has been in recent years. Next year I expect OU and A&M to be back to normal, along with Baylor improving under their Moriss. But yea, this year, the Big 12 wasn't up to par.

Jack Bauer
02-11-2006, 04:02 PM
I am a football coach by profession

Uh, yeah...

Jack Bauer
02-11-2006, 04:07 PM
if we can't get DD enough push to get the 3rd and 1's or on the goal line get that extra yard. How is Bush going to do it???

Why do people think we have a problem running the ball? Our offensive line is effective at run blocking. We do not have a problem running the ball. Kubiak likes using RBC and having a three-headed monster in Bush, DD and Morency is a good thing.

stevo3883
02-11-2006, 04:07 PM
Yes Texas beat two of the top four teams this year (two of the best games I've ever seen. two hundred college kids in a dark room watching Vince toss a touchdown with 2 minutes left. Wow) However, no one can deny that the Big 12 had a bad season. OU was not as dominant as in the past for most of the season, and A&M got off to a bad start. Baylor and OSU weren't great either. The Big 12 was just weaker than is has been in recent years. Next year I expect OU and A&M to be back to normal, along with Baylor improving under their Moriss. But yea, this year, the Big 12 wasn't up to par.


yeah, but trying to act like VY got his numbers against a bunch of nobodies is very very unfair to vince. He had fantastic games against 2 of the best teams in the country, both on the road.

Texans86
02-11-2006, 04:12 PM
yeah, but trying to act like VY got his numbers against a bunch of nobodies is very very unfair to vince. He had fantastic games against 2 of the best teams in the country, both on the road.

No doubt. I attend the University and am very proud of his accomplishments. Considering he sat out a total of nearly 2 games because we were ahead by so much in the 4th quarter all season does give leverage to his stats. I simply was expanding on an arguement that started:

Person 1: Carr didn't play anyone his senior season, that's why his stats were inflated.
Person 2: The Big 12 is was an overrated division, so Vince's stats are also inflated.

I was simply talking about the conference this year, not anything about VY.

Wolf
02-11-2006, 04:15 PM
Why do people think we have a problem running the ball? Our offensive line is effective at run blocking. We do not have a problem running the ball. Kubiak likes using RBC and having a three-headed monster in Bush, DD and Morency is a good thing.

we can run the ball but not on shortage situations

bigTEXan8
02-11-2006, 04:17 PM
No doubt. I attend the University and am very proud of his accomplishments. Considering he sat out a total of nearly 2 games because we were ahead by so much in the 4th quarter all season does give leverage to his stats. I simply was expanding on an arguement that started:

Person 1: Carr didn't play anyone his senior season, that's why his stats were inflated.
Person 2: The Big 12 is was an overrated division, so Vince's stats are also inflated.

I was simply talking about the conference this year, not anything about VY.

Carr and the Bulldogs beat Wisconson, Oregon St., and Colorado that year. All were ranked in the top 25 when the 'Dogs played them. So no, they did play somebody.

Jack Bauer
02-11-2006, 04:18 PM
yeah, but trying to act like VY got his numbers against a bunch of nobodies is very very unfair to vince. He had fantastic games against 2 of the best teams in the country, both on the road.

I have to put a disclaimer in here everytime - I think Vince will excel in the NFL, but Vince got his numbers against a good Ohio State defense and a very average USC defense.

stevo3883
02-11-2006, 04:21 PM
4. We also don't know what we are getting. No one knows how Vince Young will do in the NFL. He is a unique talent and is going to be asked to do A LOT of things he rarely or has NEVER done before. He is there for a Big Risk!! He is a great pick with the #3, #4 or #5 pick. But is not worth the #1 or #2 pick. Otherwise you would hear about how he is going to the Saints and not to the Titians. like what? what is he going to be asked to do he has never done before?? punt the ball? we have covered why the saints wouldnt take him, they have weapons ready and just need a basic pocket qb to get the ball to these weapons

5. Michael Vick and Michael Brooks are the only two QBs that are faster than David Carr currently starting in the NFL. You right DC is not as big of a dual threat as VY or those other two guys but the guy has wheels. You could even argue that VY isn't a great of a passer so he isn't that much of a dual threat. Yes he can pass but if you really watched him play his passing got results but they didn't look pretty. ok carr is a good athlete but he is not the 3rd fasest in the league, thats ridiculous. Culpepper, McNabb, Mcnair, Vick, Brooks, Plummer(4.6), josh McCown(4.59) are all faster than Carr and his 4.67 40. just because they dont run and choose to pass doesnt mean they arent as fast or faster. and vince isnt really a dual-threat? what? hes the only 3000/1000 qb in NCAA history- ie the most complete dual-threat qb EVER.. you're obviously a texas fan with all of these constant disses on his game...

6. The problem with a running QB is they only get slower as they get older. They are more likely to get injured. VY is a good passer but based on his passing ability alone he is not a Top QB prospect. Sorry. they are not more likely to get injured. running can save you from injury. its a lot worse to be hit blindisde in the pocket than tackled while scrambling. VY put up passing numbers equal to leinart, yet you say he can't pass, right....

7. I love UT. I even went to the Rosebowl. It was awesome.sure you are, thats why you constantly degrade vy's skills. calling him a run-only qb who cant pass... right

GO TEXANS.i can agree with that

not so good

stevo3883
02-11-2006, 04:23 PM
I have to put a disclaimer in here everytime - I think Vince will excel in the NFL, but Vince got his numbers against a good Ohio State defense and a very average USC defense.


osu had arguably the best defense in the nation.

and before the rose bowl USC had "the most underrated D in the nation" and once Vince torches them for his 2nd best game of the year, they are average. The defense had a nfl-coach w/1 month to plan for VY, they also led the nation in forced turnovers, and vince didnt turn it over once.

Texans86
02-11-2006, 04:24 PM
Carr and the Bulldogs beat Wisconson, Oregon St., and Colorado that year. All were ranked in the top 25 when the 'Dogs played them. So no, they did play somebody.

As I stated in the post, I was just adding to another discussion in this thread. One person says one thing. Another person says another thing. I add my two cents. And we all go home happy. I don't know much about Carr's opponents his senior year, I just know he had a lot of touchdowns, only a few ints, and a rocket for an arm.

stevo3883
02-11-2006, 04:24 PM
Carr and the Bulldogs beat Wisconson, Oregon St., and Colorado that year. All were ranked in the top 25 when the 'Dogs played them. So no, they did play somebody.


did they finish ranked?

it doesnt matter if they were ranked when they played... they could start ranked top 25 and lost 10 games, thats not a good team.

Jack Bauer
02-11-2006, 04:27 PM
osu had arguably the best defense in the nation.

and before the rose bowl USC had "the most underrated D in the nation" and once Vince torches them for his 2nd best game of the year, they are average. The defense had a nfl-coach w/1 month to plan for VY, they also led the nation in forced turnovers, and vince didnt turn it over once.

I said OSU had a good defense. Just because I don't sensationalize like everyone else seems to, doesn't mean you can argue about it. Fact: USC had the 39th ranked defense in the country and Fresno State torched them for 42 points. Should we draft a Fresno State player with the first pick in the draft???

Jack Bauer
02-11-2006, 04:29 PM
did they finish ranked?

it doesnt matter if they were ranked when they played... they could start ranked top 25 and lost 10 games, thats not a good team.

When Texas played Ohio State they should NOT have been a top 25 team. They were only ranked as high as they were because of PRESEASON rankings. It was only later in the season that they started playing like a top 10 team. So should we discount that victory?

Sportsfan
02-11-2006, 04:29 PM
How can you say Young is a better player than Carr when Young hasn't even stepped foot onto an NFL field?

Owned.

Wolf
02-11-2006, 04:32 PM
on that note.. lets take Peyton Mannings stats and put an asterisk by it.. because he inflated his stats (and the Colts) for playing us twice a year and heck he had to play the Titans twice a year..

seriously.. what is funny is any argument about VY or RB ... turns into a "didn't play anyone"

when can we agree they were really good college football players that in the right system can flourish at the NFL level

As much as Carr bashing goes.. why can't he succeed in Kubiaks system? Why don't we give him a chance because Capers system had bad results with 2 expansion QB's.. Well at least Carr (that we know of) didn't take up drinking and he has had it worse than what Collins had..

oh yeah and Fangio's system did wonders for Foley.

Maddict5
02-11-2006, 04:38 PM
Hey,

can someone tell me how the press conference went yesterday. I live in Dallas and had to read about the horrible news that DC got his extension. Another sad day for the Texans. ... Did anyone ask the question about VY? And before I get the oh.. DC doenst have this and he doesnt have this... Well guys let inform of you something. I am a football coach by profession and I watched DC in action even before he touched the field as a Texan when he was at FSU.. Even when I learned the Texans were going to draft him I questioned that decision, now I really dont understand why they are doing what they are doing again. I hate to inform you but VY is a better player not just as a QB but as a player overall

What? pee-wee footbal. seriously though i just read the part ive quoted and stopped cos when carr was coming out he was a unanomous pick for us (although peppers was good we needed a qb and he was the best 1 there) so why did you question it. that makes no sense. No1 can say VY is a better qb-they can next year if he throws 3000+ yards and generally looks amazing.and if hes soooooo great why is it generally considered that he wont be the first qb taken so thats my opinion and I should know im a NFL head coach-what? seriously i am

stevo3883
02-11-2006, 04:44 PM
When Texas played Ohio State they should NOT have been a top 25 team. They were only ranked as high as they were because of PRESEASON rankings. It was only later in the season that they started playing like a top 10 team. So should we discount that victory?


are you serious?

they started ranked 5th, and ended up 4th. and you want to DISCOUNT Texas' victory over them.

most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, makes absolutely no sense.

bigTEXan8
02-11-2006, 04:50 PM
did they finish ranked?

it doesnt matter if they were ranked when they played... they could start ranked top 25 and lost 10 games, thats not a good team.

I believe WISC and OR St. were...dunno about COL. I'll see if I can find something.

expwrlifter
02-11-2006, 05:11 PM
You were impressed with Carr coming out of college... are you serious? Did you see any of his games? And to answer your question yes I am a coach and no not a pee wee coach. I actually teach as well as coach so I spend alot more time working then typing on this board like some of you that continue to bash VY and want DC. You VY haters have a lot of hatered toward him which I cant figure out. I dont have any hate toward DC just stating he needs a new start because he will be watched even more closely now... He will get booed second guessed, its endless... I even said it wasnt fair for him..

And if you know a coach you should know that there is alot of time put into a weeks game .. but of course you know that because you are probably a pee wee coach's wife...

Whats sad is this board turns into a punching bag among the posters because everyone has different views on the issue. Most of the people from the WC love DC and they have a right too, same as the people who reside in Houston want VY.. only makes sense. Heck DC even stated he understands why people want VY.. You posters shouldnt be upset or bash on people of houston because they want there hometown guy.. You should be happy for them that they want someone from there city and not trying to move them out.. Its rare for this city to have someone like this take the national spotlight.

It took the astros almost twenty years to get there hometown guy while he posted Cy Young numbers everywhere else. People should quit taking stabs at each other and try to understand if you had a guy from your hometown wanting to come home you would be excited too. All the people are doing is trying to get their voices heard to the people who make the decisions. Because the last four years they havent and you seen where it has got us.:brickwall

sprtsfanatic
02-11-2006, 07:27 PM
You were impressed with Carr coming out of college... are you serious? Did you see any of his games? And to answer your question yes I am a coach and no not a pee wee coach. I actually teach as well as coach so I spend alot more time working then typing on this board like some of you that continue to bash VY and want DC. You VY haters have a lot of hatered toward him which I cant figure out. I dont have any hate toward DC just stating he needs a new start because he will be watched even more closely now... He will get booed second guessed, its endless... I even said it wasnt fair for him..

And if you know a coach you should know that there is alot of time put into a weeks game .. but of course you know that because you are probably a pee wee coach's wife...

Whats sad is this board turns into a punching bag among the posters because everyone has different views on the issue. Most of the people from the WC love DC and they have a right too, same as the people who reside in Houston want VY.. only makes sense. Heck DC even stated he understands why people want VY.. You posters shouldnt be upset or bash on people of houston because they want there hometown guy.. You should be happy for them that they want someone from there city and not trying to move them out.. Its rare for this city to have someone like this take the national spotlight.

It took the astros almost twenty years to get there hometown guy while he posted Cy Young numbers everywhere else. People should quit taking stabs at each other and try to understand if you had a guy from your hometown wanting to come home you would be excited too. All the people are doing is trying to get their voices heard to the people who make the decisions. Because the last four years they havent and you seen where it has got us.:brickwall

AMEN!

dat_boy_yec
02-11-2006, 07:36 PM
You were impressed with Carr coming out of college... are you serious? Did you see any of his games? And to answer your question yes I am a coach and no not a pee wee coach. I actually teach as well as coach so I spend alot more time working then typing on this board like some of you that continue to bash VY and want DC. 1You VY haters have a lot of hatered toward him which I cant figure out. I dont have any hate toward DC 2just stating he needs a new start because he will be watched even more closely now... He will get booed second guessed, its endless... I even said it wasnt fair for him..

And if you know a coach you should know that there is alot of time put into a weeks game .. but of course you know that because you are probably a pee wee coach's wife...

Whats sad is this board turns into a punching bag among the posters because everyone has different views on the issue. Most of the people from the WC love DC and they have a right too, same as the people who reside in Houston want VY.. only makes sense. Heck DC even stated he understands why people want VY.. You posters shouldnt be upset or bash on people of houston because they want there hometown guy.. You should be happy for them that they want someone from there city and not trying to move them out.. 3 Its rare for this city to have someone like this take the national spotlight.

It took the astros almost twenty years to get there hometown guy while he posted Cy Young numbers everywhere else. People should quit taking stabs at each other and try to understand if you had a guy from your hometown wanting to come home you would be excited too. All the people are doing is trying to get their voices heard to the people who make the decisions. Because the last four years they havent and you seen where it has got us.:brickwall

1. I am starting to hate VY because everybody is blowing him out of proportion. All I see on these boards now are VY threads. Nothing major about Free Agency, or what Free Agents we should sign. It's all about how Young can do no wrong. Well guess what he is just a player with flaws and imperfections just like every other player.

2. Carr is getting a fresh start, as far as the playcalling goes and people that will be surrounding him. That should be as fresh a start as anybody needs. You know who will be the ones who don't give him the fresh start. VY fans, not saying all of them, but those who will resent the team if their player isn't taken. To say he will be under scrutiny is a joke because he is and always has been under scrutiny.

3. All the big names come from somewhere and more often than not that place has a team they could go to. The Rockets could have had Studemaire or Rashard Lewis, but they didn't take those guys. Pittsburg could have had Marino. The question is would those guys have left the same impressions they leave had they played for their hometown team.

I can understand wanting a homer. What I can't stand is when people try to convince others of the perceived greatness in a player. You who are a coach should understand better than anybody the intricate workings of a team. For you to say that one player will fit in better than another shows that you are not looking at the situation with a clear head. Talent does not always translate to a cohesive unit. Carr may not have grown up here, but for the last four yrs. this has been his home. Vince may have grown up in Houston, but last I checked he wasn't going to school here. There alot of subjects which haven't even been discussed and I'm not one to bring them up because I am tired of hearing about Young. Everyone just needs to calm down on this and try to look at the situation with a clear head.

007
02-11-2006, 08:14 PM
DC is, and will never be more, than a good QB. If he had 21 all pros around him, he might be able to get to and maybe win the SB, but that's what it will take for him to reach those heights. He's no better than the other QB, who interestingly was his mentor, who came from Fresno. The guy was horrible at TB, but did win a SB with a team that had one of the best defenses of all time. He lasted one year, when the blackbirds decided he was not good enough to keep them winning longterm.

DC's so called strong arm continues to throw balls into the ground with wide open receivers and runs into sacks. He can run, but he runs a lot like Regina at A$M: scared and staight. He has no wiggle or escapeability. He's not even in the same zipcode as VY when it comes to talent and ability. Frankly, he was the best QB in the draft the year the Texans had the first pick and the guy who thought that the trade with Oakland last year for their undesirable DB was a good deal, thought he was a good fit, and he was if you take only that draft and that upcoming season into account.

If the Texans and CC don't take VY with their first pick and trade DC for a couple of mid round picks....that's if, they could even get that....then they need to trade the pick and pick up depth. Reggie Bush will never be more than a receiver/3rd down back. He will never be an every down back. Furthermore, he's not as fast as his hype. If you want evidence, look at the RB and the play when he was on the go route matched up against a UT freshman linebacker. Unlike the slow Pac 10 linebackers he was consistenly matched up against, this kid ran stride for stride for him and picked off the pass. He's not the Texans answer short term, and certainly is not the answer long term.

Let's just hope the Texans and our new coach finally get a clue. If they don't, the curse of baby blue might be on us once again.

00

TexanSam
02-11-2006, 10:20 PM
I'll comment on two things:

First, about McNair saying all the options are still open, I believe that's a just a way to make Texans fans hope that there still is a chance we will draft Vince Young. With Carr getting the extension, that chance has minimized drastically. That's my opinion though. Hopefully the Texans don't prove me wrong on this one.

Second, there is absolutely no guarantee Vince Young will succeed in the pros. Same with Reggie Bush. David Carr isn't the 2nd coming of Joe Montana, but to say he's a bad QB is stupid, IMO. Look at who he's had to play with. Andre Johnson can't catch all the balls, and taking a 2 step drop and throwing a screen pass just so he won't be sacked probably will you tell something about our offensive line and their pass protection. QB is not our biggest need. It's not even a priority. Neither is running back, but if we had to choose which one we need an upgrade at it would be running back. Domanick Davis was injured for a good part of the season last year, and the year before that, although he only missed one game, it seemed like he was injured a lot more than the average football player. Having Reggie Bush and Domanick Davis in the backfield will give us much more explosiveness in the backfield. I'm not a Young hater, but I don't think the Texans need him. Let's say Vince Young does live up to all his hype and is an amzing QB, but let's also say Bush turns into a Marshall Faulk/Barry Sanders type of running back. Will we still regret the decision? I believe not.

LBC_Justin
02-12-2006, 12:30 AM
4. We also don't know what we are getting. No one knows how Vince Young will do in the NFL. He is a unique talent and is going to be asked to do A LOT of things he rarely or has NEVER done before. He is there for a Big Risk!! He is a great pick with the #3, #4 or #5 pick. But is not worth the #1 or #2 pick. Otherwise you would hear about how he is going to the Saints and not to the Titians. like what? stevo3883 - what is he going to be asked to do he has never done before?? punt the ball? we have covered why the saints wouldnt take him, they have weapons ready and just need a basic pocket qb to get the ball to these weapons
Ummm try reading a defense from behind center and not in shotgun. Try taking a 5 step drop or a 3 step drop. Not running the option. If Vince Young goes top 3: Try not being behind a dominating Offensive line. Try not having a good tight end. I could go on but hopefully you get the point.

5. Michael Vick and Michael Brooks are the only two QBs that are faster than David Carr currently starting in the NFL. You right DC is not as big of a dual threat as VY or those other two guys but the guy has wheels. You could even argue that VY isn't a great of a passer so he isn't that much of a dual threat. Yes he can pass but if you really watched him play his passing got results but they didn't look pretty. stevo3883 - ok carr is a good athlete but he is not the 3rd fasest in the league, thats ridiculous. Culpepper, McNabb, Mcnair, Vick, Brooks, Plummer(4.6), josh McCown(4.59) are all faster than Carr and his 4.67 40. just because they dont run and choose to pass doesnt mean they arent as fast or faster. and vince isnt really a dual-threat? what? hes the only 3000/1000 qb in NCAA history- ie the most complete dual-threat qb EVER.. you're obviously a texas fan with all of these constant disses on his game...
Your right he is not a clear #3 in speed but McNair, McNabb and Culpepper are not faster than David Carr is right now. All three have put on weight and moved away from being Mobile QB's. That is the main reason they have had success. A mobile QB must eventually become a good pocket passer or they become Kordell Stewart. The fact remains Carr is one of the faster elusive QB's in the league.

6. The problem with a running QB is they only get slower as they get older. They are more likely to get injured. VY is a good passer but based on his passing ability alone he is not a Top QB prospect. Sorry. they are not more likely to get injured. stevo3883 - running can save you from injury. its a lot worse to be hit blindisde in the pocket than tackled while scrambling. VY put up passing numbers equal to leinart, yet you say he can't pass, right....
Running QB's take more hits. They also get sacked more (see Vick & Randall Cunningham). A good pocket QB like Peyton Manning won't lose his career if he can't run very fast. Carson Palmer's injury even if it slows him down won't make him that much less effective because he has a golden arm. As soon and Michael Vick can't run...he is done.
Also he didn't put up passing numbers that similar to Matt Leinart.
- In Leinarts worst year he pass for more yards than VY did in his best year.
- In Leinarts worst year he pass for more touchdowns than VY did in his best year.
- In Leinarts worst year he pass for less interceptions than VY did in his best year.
No this is not me HATING on Vince Young. These are facts not opinions.


7. I love UT. I even went to the Rosebowl. It was awesome.stevo3883 - sure you are, thats why you constantly degrade vy's skills. calling him a run-only qb who cant pass... right.
As far as being a Texas fan, being critical of a player does not make me less of a fan, I am a fan of the team first, not of individual players,...plus the emotion has worn off. This is the Business season of the NFL. I don't like losing, in fact I hate it. Anyone who thinks VY is our savior is wearing their heart on their sleeve and not their brain. I am a HUGE texas fan, but I am a thinking man. I am not going to jepordize the future of this franchise by using the #1 pick on someone who is not a sure thing. Yes Vince Young has a TON of upside but there is a TON of risk. In my opinion the #1 overall pick is not used on a risky pick. VY is a great player but he is not worth trading David Carr and Reggie Bush to get.(That is what we would be doing.). Why is there ZERO talk about a team wanting to trade up to the #1 or #2 spot to get Vince Young before the Titans do? Why are both Cutler & Leinart rated higher than Vince Young by about half the scounts in the NFL? A #1 overall pick should be the head and shoulders above the rest of the pack. He isn't close to that. Bottomline is if Florida State had won the National Title with Vince Young, then we would not be having this conversation, it is the "Hometown Hero Syndrome", maybe I am less effected by it since I don't get pounded daily by the local media.


GO TEXANS.stevo3883 - i can agree with that Sweet!

My response is in green.

Big B Texan Fan
02-12-2006, 12:47 AM
First, about McNair saying all the options are still open, I believe that's a just a way to make Texans fans hope that there still is a chance we will draft Vince Young. With Carr getting the extension, that chance has minimized drastically. That's my opinion though. Hopefully the Texans don't prove me wrong on this one.
I believe he said that to make sure season ticket holders pony up on paying. Word is that the Texans are wanting more up front this year to get them guaranteed to you than in years past. Like 40% more. If true, I'd say the same things. Especially if I expected many fans to drop off (not the fandom, just spending money on a bad product) because of a single draft choice.

LBC_Justin
02-12-2006, 12:54 AM
DC is, and will never be more, than a good QB. If he had 21 all pros around him, he might be able to get to and maybe win the SB, but that's what it will take for him to reach those heights. He's no better than the other QB, who interestingly was his mentor, who came from Fresno. The guy was horrible at TB, but did win a SB with a team that had one of the best defenses of all time. He lasted one year, when the blackbirds decided he was not good enough to keep them winning longterm.

DC's so called strong arm continues to throw balls into the ground with wide open receivers and runs into sacks. He can run, but he runs a lot like Regina at A$M: scared and staight. He has no wiggle or escapeability. He's not even in the same zipcode as VY when it comes to talent and ability. Frankly, he was the best QB in the draft the year the Texans had the first pick and the guy who thought that the trade with Oakland last year for their undesirable DB was a good deal, thought he was a good fit, and he was if you take only that draft and that upcoming season into account.

If the Texans and CC don't take VY with their first pick and trade DC for a couple of mid round picks....that's if, they could even get that....then they need to trade the pick and pick up depth. Reggie Bush will never be more than a receiver/3rd down back. He will never be an every down back. Furthermore, he's not as fast as his hype. If you want evidence, look at the RB and the play when he was on the go route matched up against a UT freshman linebacker. Unlike the slow Pac 10 linebackers he was consistenly matched up against, this kid ran stride for stride for him and picked off the pass. He's not the Texans answer short term, and certainly is not the answer long term.

Let's just hope the Texans and our new coach finally get a clue. If they don't, the curse of baby blue might be on us once again.

00
I have a big problem with posts like this. Because they use inconsistent logic.
Casserly is an ***** and a bad judge of talent because he traded for P-Buc. Lets forget the fact that last year with a single 4th round pick he got us a pro-bowler, and we ended up the the #2 special teams in the NFL because of that pick. Lets forget the fact that he grabbed DD with a late round pick. Lets forget the extra picks he got us with the Drew Henson trade. Lets forget the fact that he has built a team that has won a superbowl. (For the record I am not a big fan of Casserly but he is the guy in the saddle right now so I am going to support him, and pray for the sake of all Texans fans that it was the coaching that didn't work for us in the past and not him.)

Casserly, Reeves, and Kubiak all seem to think Carr has what it takes. They also have all won Superbowl Rings. Not to question the great evaluation skills of 007 but I seem to trust them a little more that I trust you. (Also most of the Scouts in the NFL are still high on David Carr.)

Again poor logic with your argument.
You are projecting greatness on Vince Young because of his college performance but are projecting failure onto Reggie Bush when he had one of the BEST careers in the history of his postion. Makes ZERO sense.

Using your logic. One could easily say Reggie Bush will lead this team to be one of the best Offenses of all time like Marshal Faulk did with the Rams and that Vince Young will be the next Kordell Stewart (I mean did you see how bad VY played against Texas A&M with their below average defense.)

stevo3883
02-12-2006, 01:06 AM
Lets forget the fact that last year with a single 4th round pick he got us a pro-bowler- at kick returner... and this is his second pro-bowler in 4 seasons.

Again poor logic with your argument.
You are projecting greatness on Vince Young because of his college performance but are projecting failure onto Reggie Bush when he had one of the BEST careers in the history of his postion. Makes ZERO sense.Vince Young finished with nearly as many rushing yards in his career as RB. RB didnt have a great career, he had a fantastic year.

Using your logic. One could easily say Reggie Bush will lead this team to be one of the best Offenses of all time like Marshal Faulk did with the Rams and that Vince Young will be the next Kordell Stewart (I mean did you see how bad VY played against Texas A&M with their below average defense.)or i could say reggie will play every game like he did against washington- ie disappearing.

i have a problem with posts that bash VY

LBC_Justin
02-12-2006, 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by LBC_Justin
Lets forget the fact that last year with a single 4th round pick he got us a pro-bowler- stevo3883 - at kick returner... and this is his second pro-bowler in 4 seasons.Well Dunta Robinson should have been a pro bowler his rookie year but he didn't make it. So was he a bad pick? Did you expect Travis Johnson to be a probowler his first year? Serious question..(I don't know the answer to this but would be curious to find out)..How do the Texans rank compared to other teams in drafting Pro Bowl players in the last 4 drafts? I could be wrong but I would guess we aren't doing that bad.

Again poor logic with your argument.
You are projecting greatness on Vince Young because of his college performance but are projecting failure onto Reggie Bush when he had one of the BEST careers in the history of his postion. stevo3883 - Makes ZERO sense.Vince Young finished with nearly as many rushing yards in his career as RB. RB didnt have a great career, he had a fantastic year. Oh yeah well....well...Reggie Bush had a higher career passer rating than Vince Young(LOL he does.:yap). Seriously Vince Young is probably the best running college QB of all time and has more rushing attempts than Reggie Bush but still didn't run for more yards than Reggie. Oh and don't forget about the 95 passes for 1301 yards Reggie caught.(he had a better Junior year catching passes.) Or the Kick return/Punt return yards. The reason Reggie won the heisman and is sloted as the #1 pick is that he is a play maker in many areas. LOL I have spent the last few months defending VY over Reggie Bush against my USC friends so I know most of these arguments.) Trust me I would love to see VY come here and have a great career, but in my opinion it isn't the smart decison, it is the emotional one.

Using your logic. One could easily say Reggie Bush will lead this team to be one of the best Offenses of all time like Marshal Faulk did with the Rams and that Vince Young will be the next Kordell Stewart (I mean did you see how bad VY played against Texas A&M with their below average defense.)stevo3883 - or i could say reggie will play every game like he did against washington- ie disappearing.
LOL sorry but you clearly didn't watch the Washington game. (I did as I am force fed USC games where I currently live.)
Matt Leinart was lighting it up, neither of USC's running back saw a lot of action.
Reggie Bush had 8 carries for 51 <-- 6.4 yards per carry(that is a great average)
LenDale White had 16 carries for 56 <-- 3.5 yards per carry

Reggie Bush scored on a 84 yard punt return.
2 catches for 18 yards
8 carries for 51 yards, 1 touchdown
1 punt return for 84 yards, 1 touchdown
----------------------------------------
11 touches, 153 yards, 2 touchdowns. <--Just imagine what this guy can do in the games that he isn't "Disappearing".:yahoo:

I hope we draft Reggie Bush and he does play every game like he did against Washington.


enjoy

:redtowel: GO TEXANS :redtowel:

LBC_Justin
02-12-2006, 03:15 AM
Oh and just for the record.
I am not "pro-Reggie Bush". I like the guy and think he is worthy of the #1 pick but I would be just as happy if we traded down and picked up D'Brick or Super Mario if the deal was right.

I would even be happy if we traded down and picked up Vince Young if the deal was right.

I would be one of the first people in line to get a VY Texans jersey. Heck the thought of him being on our team is getting me pumped up.

Jack Bauer
02-12-2006, 10:57 AM
are you serious?

they started ranked 5th, and ended up 4th. and you want to DISCOUNT Texas' victory over them.

most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, makes absolutely no sense.

No, I am not serious. I was trying to make a point that you obviously did not get. What I was saying is that Ohio State was not as good of a team early in the season. If Troy Smith would have played the whole game, I think the outcome would have been different. And I am not trying to bash Texas or anyone. I am trying to show you that your arguments are just as weak as what you saw in my previous post. You can always say, "if this" or "if that". Makes for a weak argument.

bckey
02-12-2006, 11:32 AM
It seems like these bbs have been taken over by a bunch of kids and new members that have picked sides and want to argue and sling insults if anyone disagrees with them. It is getting tiresome to wade through the garbage all the time. I see that a lot of the members that have been around for a while rarely post these days. These boards are in the sadest shape that I have ever seen them. Sean Taylor and DJ don't even compare to the fueding of the Vince Young and Reggie Bush crowds.

stevo3883
02-12-2006, 11:33 AM
No, I am not serious. I was trying to make a point that you obviously did not get. What I was saying is that Ohio State was not as good of a team early in the season. If Troy Smith would have played the whole game, I think the outcome would have been different. And I am not trying to bash Texas or anyone. I am trying to show you that your arguments are just as weak as what you saw in my previous post. You can always say, "if this" or "if that". Makes for a weak argument.

i never said "if" anything.

Ohio state was ranked 5th when they played texas, obviously there were a good team when they played texas

oh and btw, troy smith didnt do anything against texas, i doubt him playing the hwole game wouldve mattered at all.

Jack Bauer
02-12-2006, 11:47 AM
It took the astros almost twenty years to get there hometown guy while he posted Cy Young numbers everywhere else. People should quit taking stabs at each other and try to understand if you had a guy from your hometown wanting to come home you would be excited too.

I want to draft the best player available. I couldn't care less where the player is from. This comes from a coach? Yeah, okay.

tulexan
02-12-2006, 11:55 AM
I don't know, that Ohio State team in the Fiesta Bowl looked a lot better than the one that lost to Texas. Saying that Troy Smith wouldn't have made a difference is a bit of a stretch. Zwick was terrible, and there is a reason why after that Texas game he didn't play the rest of the season in meaningful minutes. Smith was coming off of a suspension and had yet to play all season before taking over in the middle of the game. I'm not even sure if he practiced with the team.

Jack Bauer
02-12-2006, 11:58 AM
i never said "if" anything.

Ohio state was ranked 5th when they played texas, obviously there were a good team when they played texas

oh and btw, troy smith didnt do anything against texas, i doubt him playing the hwole game wouldve mattered at all.

You don't have to say "if" to actually make an "if this or if that" argument:

The point is that Ohio State was not as good as advertised at the beginning of the year. Read your own post concerning being ranked at the beginning of the season:

did they finish ranked?

it doesnt matter if they were ranked when they played... they could start ranked top 25 and lost 10 games, thats not a good team.

The flaw in this thinking is assuming that if they finish the year in the same area that they started the season that the team was that good for the entire year. FALSE!

Yes, Ohio State did finish the year ranked in the same vicinity at the beginning and the end of the year. Does that mean they were as good at the beginning of the year? No. Their ranking at the beginning of the year was based on preseason speculation. The switch to Troy Smith as the full-time starter is what saved OSU's season and top 25 ranking.

Again, the ranking at the beginning of the season is not related to the ranking at the end of the season. :ok: Get it? If not, good luck because I am done with this.

Mr. White
02-12-2006, 12:34 PM
I am very aware mam of how much time Football eats up. Time away from my Wife and Kids.

.....time away from the Message Boards?

expwrlifter
02-12-2006, 01:59 PM
Well as i can see some of you guys still take punches at other people and again its the West Coast taking punches at the Houston natives. WC people understand why we want VY.. its nothing personal against DC.. Heck if you like him that punch starting writing letters to Al Davis and ask him to trade for him. You got a great deal last year for PB...

And to answer that question about taking the best player in the draft...well that is VY people will say BPA.... and to answer the question about the QB fitting into the system. well VY does fit better into our system instead of DC.

Reason-- We have a horrible line and VY is more mobile opens up more lanes to pass as well as run. You have to check at the line of scrimmage and read the defense, which DC is not good at from previous years. Kubiak loves to use different RBs and we have tons of those, even paid a good almost above avg Rb in DD. AJ needs to get open with VY is helps a little because you have to respect his running ability which wont happen like in college but he does offer that threat like M. Vick. VY can operate from under center..he did it in HS just ask his coach from Madison... of course you WC people wouldnt know this because you only saw him on TV.. And that goes back to my saying an athlete will adapt and produce.

VY can and will have faults...trust me any QB will at first... just takes time to adapt and we have time because Kubes has a five year deal. It wont take VY that long to adapt and learn the system. I would make him sit one year watch DC or the veteran you bring in and let him learn. He will learn as he has done in his previous years. And I am not saying he is Superman because I know he is not... not even close but he is a QB that has intangibles...leadership, able to make big plays.. these things are not taught they either have them or not. They make the people around them better...

Again DC just needs a new start he has had a bad time here and just needs somewhere where the people wont criticize him for every move. You know how people in houston are and they dont take there sports lightly. When you make a bad decision they will never let you live it down...Nolan Ryan, Houston Oilers.... We love our sport teams and want them to produce...

DC just hasnt done that and we just want a new start ..like a new HC which we got.. thats why we want VY ..a new start....

And before I get the you hate DC... you love VY... he is a superhero...

I dont for either..I am just looking at down the road and what will make this team better... If you take RB and keep DC you have no lineman... If you take VY trade DC for lineman you still have above avg RBs in DD, Vorency, JW and our lineman were great for the run but couldnt do anything for the pass. Well thats Kubes type of offense... run the ball to set up the pass. So from the QB that fits thats why I see it as VY not DC... you are giving up too much to take RB and keep DC because we have no money to get lineman so we will still be 5-11 or 4-12. Not saying we will tons better with VY but it gives a chance to get lineman. If you take RB we dont have anything or anybody to trade... Dont say DD he is injury prone and nobody will take him for a lineman...And before you say you said DD is a good Rb he is just if he gets hurt its okay in Kubes offense we have others to fill in.. Tatum Bell, Mike Anderson, Griffith... <- Bronco RBs....

Hopefully this makes some sense...:ok:

LBC_Justin
02-12-2006, 03:29 PM
Well as i can see some of you guys still take punches at other people and again its the West Coast taking punches at the Houston natives. WC people understand why we want VY.. its nothing personal against DC.. Heck if you like him that punch starting writing letters to Al Davis and ask him to trade for him. You got a great deal last year for PB...

And to answer that question about taking the best player in the draft...well that is VY people will say BPA.... and to answer the question about the QB fitting into the system. well VY does fit better into our system instead of DC.

Reason-- We have a horrible line and VY is more mobile opens up more lanes to pass as well as run. You have to check at the line of scrimmage and read the defense, which DC is not good at from previous years. Kubiak loves to use different RBs and we have tons of those, even paid a good almost above avg Rb in DD. AJ needs to get open with VY is helps a little because you have to respect his running ability which wont happen like in college but he does offer that threat like M. Vick. VY can operate from under center..he did it in HS just ask his coach from Madison... of course you WC people wouldnt know this because you only saw him on TV.. And that goes back to my saying an athlete will adapt and produce.

VY can and will have faults...trust me any QB will at first... just takes time to adapt and we have time because Kubes has a five year deal. It wont take VY that long to adapt and learn the system. I would make him sit one year watch DC or the veteran you bring in and let him learn. He will learn as he has done in his previous years. And I am not saying he is Superman because I know he is not... not even close but he is a QB that has intangibles...leadership, able to make big plays.. these things are not taught they either have them or not. They make the people around them better...

Again DC just needs a new start he has had a bad time here and just needs somewhere where the people wont criticize him for every move. You know how people in houston are and they dont take there sports lightly. When you make a bad decision they will never let you live it down...Nolan Ryan, Houston Oilers.... We love our sport teams and want them to produce...

DC just hasnt done that and we just want a new start ..like a new HC which we got.. thats why we want VY ..a new start....

And before I get the you hate DC... you love VY... he is a superhero...

I dont for either..I am just looking at down the road and what will make this team better... If you take RB and keep DC you have no lineman... If you take VY trade DC for lineman you still have above avg RBs in DD, Vorency, JW and our lineman were great for the run but couldnt do anything for the pass. Well thats Kubes type of offense... run the ball to set up the pass. So from the QB that fits thats why I see it as VY not DC... you are giving up too much to take RB and keep DC because we have no money to get lineman so we will still be 5-11 or 4-12. Not saying we will tons better with VY but it gives a chance to get lineman. If you take RB we dont have anything or anybody to trade... Dont say DD he is injury prone and nobody will take him for a lineman...And before you say you said DD is a good Rb he is just if he gets hurt its okay in Kubes offense we have others to fill in.. Tatum Bell, Mike Anderson, Griffith... <- Bronco RBs....

Hopefully this makes some sense...:ok:
Umm... I don't think you exactly understand how NFL football works. Picking VY is not going to help us get lineman. Oh man I could spend all day breaking up your post, there are a thousand holes. No offense but I no longer believe you are a Football Coach.

oh and if you are bundling me in with the "West Coasters" don't, I was born and raised in Houston and have only been on the West Coast for 3 years. I am as Houston as it comes.

Carr Bombed
02-12-2006, 03:47 PM
Hey I'm a football coach, I led my Madden team to 4 straight superbowls. :stirpot:

bigTEXan8
02-12-2006, 04:19 PM
Hey I'm a football coach, I led my Madden team to 4 straight superbowls. :stirpot:

You got me beat...I've only lead mine to three, but I am in my fourth season.

expwrlifter
02-12-2006, 04:24 PM
its called salary cap issues... we will only have 9 million left to get some lineman. last time i checked good lineman dont come cheap.

and as for the guy movin to the WC i am glad that you are from here and you stayed a Texan fan.. at least shows you are not a fair weather fan and I appreaciate that.:ok:

GoBlue
02-12-2006, 04:32 PM
Even if VY turns out to be as good as the best athletic QB in the league (McNabb and Vick) it will not translate into wins for the Texans. Look at what happened to McNabb when T.O. wigged out on him. and Mike Vick was totally ineffective this year without a receiving corps and a mediocre offensive line. The reason why we shouldn't take VY is that we can't afford to- too much money would need to be paid out and we have already invested too much in Carr. I don't think Carr will ever get to the ProBowl, but he certainly may get to the superbowl, if we draft smart and build a team around the QB we have.

If may seem ridiculous but its like if you're married for 4 years and you've lost some of the intial excitement with your current wife (Carr). You find out the most perfect woman in the world (VY) wants to join your, er team. Do you divorce your wife, leave your kids and start over? Of course not. You buy a fast sports car (Reggie Bush) to bring some zip back in your life and you make it work with the wife you got. You could also buy a bunch of smaller gifts for yourself to spice things up (TRADE DOWN).

Hope that puts things into perspective for some of you.

TexanBacker93
02-12-2006, 05:13 PM
Good post. Hard to understand the Young-haters here. They seem to have the man-crush problem on Carr and any mention of replacing him with a better player riles them up. I'll be very sorry to see VY go to the Titans, but he will be a great player to watch in furture years.


Young may very well end up being better than Carr. Most experts had and scouts in America had Carr as the top rated player coming out of college. Has he performed as well as expected? It depends on what your expectations were. Most people, myself included, feel he hasn't lived up to the #1 pick billing. The question the team faces is how much of this is his fault and how much is not getting the help needed to be successful? Right now, it looks like they feel that he's still potentially the player they drafted. Only time will tell, but I would take Kubiak's opinion over someone on this board.

I don't think the team should take Young, but it's not because I am a hater. I do think he'll take a couple of years to develop, though. I think the team has holes that are more important to fill. I don't think Bush is that player either. I'd rather have him than Young on the current team, though. I think they would be better sooner. I think the Texans need to look at getting an extra couple of high picks and move down to take Mario Williams or D'Brickashaw Ferguson. This isn't a knock on Young or Bush, but they are players that the team needs now.

As far as the Titans taking Young, I've gone to their boards a couple of times and it seems their fans prefer trading down to get picks to fill holes as well. With McNair coming back and Volek on the bench, it's not a given that the Titans take VY. I think the Saints should take him over Leinart, though.

dat_boy_yec
02-12-2006, 07:28 PM
its called salary cap issues... we will only have 9 million left to get some lineman. last time i checked good lineman dont come cheap.

and as for the guy movin to the WC i am glad that you are from here and you stayed a Texan fan.. at least shows you are not a fair weather fan and I appreaciate that.:ok:

Considering you are a coach and should know this. In drafting Young we would be drafting the highest paid position. We already extended Carr so even if we traded him we would take a nice cap hit. Whoever we draft will be a cap hit, however Young has two things going against him.
1. He would create the biggest cap hit unless he and his relative agent took a Huge discount.
2. He will have no immediate impact, everyone, even you, knows this.

So tell me with VY chewing up so much cap space how will we afford those high dollar linemen you were talking about?

thunderkyss
02-12-2006, 08:23 PM
Don't sell Carr short and don't over hype VY just yet.

1. Did you see David Carr's college stats they were amazing. He was the fastest QB, the strongest QB, had the best arm in the draft.

2. Running Backs don't get Quarterback money. Regardless of what position they are drafted in.

3. Marshal Faulk is an NFL MVP, took his team to TWO Superbowls (won 1), and was a big part of the his team being the #1 offense for three straight years. (If Reggie Bush is like that.....I'll take him in a heart beat.)
Are you sure that had nothing to do with Kurt Warner?? No Kurt, No SuperBowl. Marshall was a big part of that, but he didn't bring that kinda play to Indy, and you haven't seen anything like it since Kurt Left.

4. We also don't know what we are getting. No one knows how David Carr will do in the NFL. He is a unique talent and is going to be asked to do A LOT of things he rarely or has NEVER done before. He is there for a Big Risk!! He is a great pick with the #3, #4 or #5 pick. But is not worth the #1 or #2 pick. Otherwise you would hear about how he is going to the Saints and not to the Titians.
Every thing here is true about David Carr, four years into the league. The word unique, however, doesn't mean the same thing in reference to Carr.

5. Michael Vick and Michael Brooks are the only two QBs that are faster than David Carr currently starting in the NFL. You right DC is not as big of a dual threat as VY or those other two guys but the guy has wheels. You could even argue that VY isn't a great of a passer so he isn't that much of a dual threat. Yes he can pass but if you really watched him play his passing got results but they didn't look pretty.
If Vince was my QB, I would try my best to keep him behind the line of scrimmage. Not so far as to ruin his game, but I want him to understand that I need him to throw the ball. I need to get him out of the pocket when the line collapses..... But I need him to make plays behind the line of scrimmage... that's what seperates McNabb/Culpepper from Vick. Vince by the way is a better passer than Dante & Donovan.

6. The problem with a running QB is they only get slower as they get older. They are more likely to get injured. VY is a good passer but based on his passing ability alone he is not a Top QB prospect. Sorry.

7. I love UT. I even went to the Rosebowl. It was awesome.

GO TEXANS.

If you saw Vince in person, then you know he is more than just a running QB. If I had seen anything to make me think David had what it takes to raise the confidence level of his teammates......... then I would think he might be something special.

McNair's got it...... Brady, Peyton.... Big Ben.. yep he's got it.... Delhomme... got it........ Favre.... he's got so much, it spills over to the fans thinking they are better than what they are......

Vince has got it....

Carr, nope........ Bledsoe... un-un..... Moon......... no.... Brad Johnson doesn't have it(ring or no)....... Marino.. unfortunately didn't have it.... Randall Cuningham doesn't have it either....

Brad Johnosn illustrates that "it" isn't necessary to win a superbowl.... McNair, Peyton... illustrate that it doesn't garrantee a SuperBowl either....

But I would love to have a QB like that.

LBC_Justin
02-12-2006, 09:23 PM
If you saw Vince in person, then you know he is more than just a running QB. If I had seen anything to make me think David had what it takes to raise the confidence level of his teammates......... then I would think he might be something special.

McNair's got it...... Brady, Peyton.... Big Ben.. yep he's got it.... Delhomme... got it........ Favre.... he's got so much, it spills over to the fans thinking they are better than what they are......

Vince has got it....

Carr, nope........ Bledsoe... un-un..... Moon......... no.... Brad Johnson doesn't have it(ring or no)....... Marino.. unfortunately didn't have it.... Randall Cuningham doesn't have it either....

Brad Johnosn illustrates that "it" isn't necessary to win a superbowl.... McNair, Peyton... illustrate that it doesn't garrantee a SuperBowl either....

But I would love to have a QB like that.
You know what the Rose Bowl showed me. Matt Leinart is going to be a good QB in the NFL. The Texas Defense looked very fast and on top of things and he had no problem picking them apart in the second half.
Vince was great but he has some athletic WRs that made some athletic plays. It was very clear to me that Vince Young had a much easier task facing a much weaker USC defense, than Leinart did, because the Texas defense was very impressive.

Don't get me wrong I think Vince Young is GREAT. I don't want that to get lost in this post. But what we are talking about is this......Is Vince Young the BEST player in the entire draft? Is Vince Young the smart pick given our situation? I have to say no to both. If we needed a QB and we were in a situation where our salary cap and contract situation was QB friendly then I would be all for it, but I would want us to take a long hard look at Matt Leinart too. You can't say he has any less of the "IT" factor than Vince Young and he has been playing under a lot of pressure being the defending National Champs and totally in the spot light all season long. Plus he has been playing in a NFL style offense, but he isn't as exciting to watch and he isn't from Texas, so that is two strikes against him.

If we use the #1 pick I think it has to be on Reggie Bush. But every single day I am leaning more and more towards Trading down.

Oh and Warren Moon had it. Every year in the playoffs his defense clapsed on him. Almost every playoffs we were one defesive play away from moving closer to the superbowl. But alas this is the ULTIMATE TEAM SPORT, and one player regardless of how good he is can't always get it done. Moon was a winner, after all he did win FIVE Grey Cups playing in Canada.

expwrlifter
02-12-2006, 10:11 PM
I think people should read the post more clearly... I never said that VY would be an instant impact i said let him sit and learn and then give him his chance. Why not it will create competition with DC and then we can see if he is really worth all that money..

And as for the salary cap i think i read somewhere he is only counted toward 2 mil this year so why couldnt we trade him? As for RB if he is drafted #1 then you think he isnt going to want some of that money.... I am sure VY would probably make his contract with incentives like Ricky Williams did his first year in the league.

Come on people especially you VY haters... give the guy a chance and open at least one of your eyes and see how good of an athlete he is...

As for your WC guys if you really think DC is that good ask Al Davis to trade for him... another thing DC was the best QB available that year in the draft and that is not saying much from that year.. And if I remember right The Texans were hoping that M Vick would go back to VT his sr year so they could draft him...

Hope you guys have a great week and maybe The Texans will do something this week that will give us some hope that they are thinking right for once. :superman:

Jack Bauer
02-12-2006, 11:12 PM
And as for the salary cap i think i read somewhere he is only counted toward 2 mil this year so why couldnt we trade him?

Try the accelerated bonus if he is traded. :)

Carr Bombed
02-12-2006, 11:58 PM
As for RB if he is drafted #1 then you think he isnt going to want some of that money.... I am sure VY would probably make his contract with incentives like Ricky Williams did his first year in the league.
How is it that all the Vincers can read the future, so Bush is a money hungry Ahole, but Young is going to hire Master P as his agent.....yeah I didn't think so either.

Come on people especially you VY haters... give the guy a chance and open at least one of your eyes and see how good of an athlete he is...

Your right Vince is one hellava athlete, which is why he was a great college quarterback, (at the pro level everybody is one hellava athlete, a coach would know that) however, my eyes are open and I see all colors (not just burnt orange) and all possibilities, example, if we're having a QB dabate then all the top QBs should be included in the discussion, not just the hometown guy, especially when he isn't even the highest rated player at his position. Which is another reason why I don't believe you are a coach. I was raised by a coach and a coach believes in a scheme not a player, especially when the player didn't even play in a pro style offense and is a project at best at the next level. BTW who exactly do you coach and on what level and what is you coaching philosophy ?...That is something you've failed to tell us

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 12:19 AM
If Young was on the bench while Carr was on the field, Carr couldn't sneeze without hearing it from the Longhorn faithful. Drafting Young will force their hand to trade Carr and they won't get value out of him. Teams would know the Texans want to move him and offer little. It's not worth the $8 million cap hit they would take to move him.

Williams made a mistake for that contract and no agent will ever allow a player of that level to do something like that again. Young is not going to take less money than is his due. In part, it's his obligation to other players to take the best deal he can get.

Carr wasn't just the highest rated QB, he was the highest rated player. Well, he and Julius Peppers were neck and neck. Peppers could have made a great OLB in a 3-4, but I doubt they would use a #1 overall on that.

I don't know if anyone here is really a VY hater. I think the people for VY are Carr haters, but those that think they should stick with Carr respect VY and understand he is a phenomenal talent. At least from what I have read that's what I see. Just because someone doesn't think the team would be best served taking a certain player doesn't mean they don't like the guy. Teams pass on great players every year. Teams that have no holes can take the best available player. Teams that take the BPA when they have other needs frequently pick in the same spot each year. I'm thinking about the Lions specifically.

The Texans aren't in a position to draft in a position that they already have a suitable player. Is Carr a HOF player? It's too early in his career to tell, but I would say no. He'll probably have some very good seasons and earn a Pro Bowl appearance or more. Young has the abilities of being a HOF player. Is it a guarantee? No matter how many times anyone has watched him play they can't say for sure. There are no guarantees in the NFL.

thunderkyss
02-13-2006, 08:48 AM
If Young was on the bench while Carr was on the field, Carr couldn't sneeze without hearing it from the Longhorn faithful. Drafting Young will force their hand to trade Carr and they won't get value out of him. Teams would know the Texans want to move him and offer little. It's not worth the $8 million cap hit they would take to move him. You think that, because that is the way it worked out for Montana when Young started?? or Trent, when Warner started?? or Brees, after they drafted Rivers?? or Cunningham after Culpepper started?? or Bledsoe when Brady took over?? hmmmmm

Carr wasn't just the highest rated QB, he was the highest rated player. Well, he and Julius Peppers were neck and neck. Peppers could have made a great OLB in a 3-4, but I doubt they would use a #1 overall on that. Has any of the QBs from that draft done anything worth talking about??

I don't know if anyone here is really a VY hater. I think the people for VY are Carr haters, but those that think they should stick with Carr respect VY and understand he is a phenomenal talent. At least from what I have read that's what I see. Just because someone doesn't think the team would be best served taking a certain player doesn't mean they don't like the guy. Teams pass on great players every year. Teams that have no holes can take the best available player. Teams that take the BPA when they have other needs frequently pick in the same spot each year. I'm thinking about the Lions specifically. I'm not a David Carr hater...... at the same time, I can't say he is a phenomenal talent either. If any of us could say that, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I do believe Carr is talented enough to play in the NFL. But I think the same is true for Kyle Boller, Steve Bulger, Vinny Testeverde, and a number of others. I think it was a mistake to have drafted Carr #1 overall. If we didn't have the #1 overall this year, I'd be thinking Jay Cutler if Vince doesn't drop to us.... If Vince went back to school, I'd be fighting for us to trade-down, and try to get Jay Cutler. Draft, and free agency...... I always think teams should be working towards making there team better. If you have an opportunity to take a BPA, you do. Detroit has got it all messed up, they've been taking the best WR three years running, and that isn't the same as BPA. I don't agree with the way they've been picking. I don't think it compares to what we've been doing, or with wanting to take Vince this year.

The Texans aren't in a position to draft in a position that they already have a suitable player. Is Carr a HOF player? It's too early in his career to tell, but I would say no. He'll probably have some very good seasons and earn a Pro Bowl appearance or more. Young has the abilities of being a HOF player. Is it a guarantee? No matter how many times anyone has watched him play they can't say for sure. There are no guarantees in the NFL.
But I think it would be a safe bet that Vince will make more pro-bowls than Carr. And when I say suitable, it is like the words Stop-Gap. Carr is good enough to hold the starting Position, until you find your Franchise guy.

If I thought we needed three OLmen, then yeah..... trade down. But I'd also admit that we are rebuilding, if you're going to scratch 3/5ths of your line, your tight end, and throw in another running back. Not to even mention the three players we need on defense.

Vinny
02-13-2006, 09:38 AM
Carr wasn't just the highest rated QB, he was the highest rated player. Well, he and Julius Peppers were neck and neck.

That's just not accurate at all. Peppers had a higher grade in that draft from both the scouting services.

kbourda
02-13-2006, 09:50 AM
Even if VY turns out to be as good as the best athletic QB in the league (McNabb and Vick) it will not translate into wins for the Texans. Look at what happened to McNabb when T.O. wigged out on him. and Mike Vick was totally ineffective this year without a receiving corps and a mediocre offensive line. The reason why we shouldn't take VY is that we can't afford to- too much money would need to be paid out and we have already invested too much in Carr.

Are you watching what you type? Don't you check what you have said afterwards? If not, let me hip you to a couple of things. McNabb and Vick during Carr's career here have made it to the playoffs several times. If you equate their success to VY, how is that a bad thing? McNabb did as well as you could with a hernia. When did Vick have a receiving corps to begin with? And I guess paying whomever with the #1 pick would be cheaper to sign than VY, right? Maybe this is just me but the #1 pick (that Carr is) should have high expectations than so-so. You didn't say he was so-so, I did. But when you don't see that a #1 pick isn't Pro_Bowl caliber and may never be, how can that be ok with you? That time I checked the Texans are paying Carr Pro Bowl money. Not Tony Banks money.

DRAMA
02-13-2006, 10:06 AM
Michael Vick won because he had good coaching and great players...wr's aside. Either way, IMO Vick's average at the absolute best. 5'10", can't throw (Yes, I know he has a pretty spiral), can't read D's, makes terrible decisions, and is close to being a qb that runs every now and then. If Vick didn't run, we wouldn't trade Carr for that guy!

He runs and looks good running so he's a star. Otherwise, Vick is average at BEST! VY will be much better than Vick, IMHO!

Frills
02-13-2006, 10:15 AM
If we trade down and gain an extra pick next season.. I'd like to have this guy.(sorry for the highjack) if I am not mistaken he is like 6'2 220 lbs or so and runs 4.4

http://www.adpeterson.com/images/2005/games/09-03-05/ad_09_03_05_06.jpg


http://www.adpeterson.com/index.html


back to topic.. problem I have with RB is, yes he is a homerun hit, yet if we can't get DD enough push to get the 3rd and 1's or on the goal line get that extra yard. How is Bush going to do it???

OU's O-line >>>>>>>>>>>Texans O-line

But its a damn good idea.

Texans draft Brick, let DD wear out some more

Texans draft AD to replace DD

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 10:16 AM
I would like to retract my generalization statement. I don't think VY fans are necessarily Carr haters. There are a larger majority of the Carr haters that are VY fans than not, though.

I think the Montana/Young, Green/Warner situations were different. First off, Montana was already a Super Bowl winning QB at that point and Young wasn't a hometown kid. I think the main problem Carr would face is because Young is a hometown kid. Warner was a new addition to the roster and Green was hurt in the preseason. By the time he was healthy, Warner had led the Rams to a Super Bowl win.

Vinny, I double checked and you are correct. However, they were a few points off in the grading (one that I can think of right now with out looking had Peppers at 4.88 and Carr at 4.86). Both were pictured as Quality players that could probably see a few pro bowls. Unfortunately for that draft year it was weak as far as a top of the draft goes. He was considered the franchise QB prospect and was the smarter pick then. If the team could go back they might draft differently.

Vince Young, no matter how many diseases he has cured, no matter how many seas he has parted is not a guarantee. I think he will be a great QB, but it's not a lock. Reggie Bush is not a guarantee. D'Brickashaw is not a guarantee. There are no guarantees at this level. The team has more needs than a QB that may or may not be the greatest ever. If he was from any other school in America this wouldn't be a question. The NFL doesn't need to rely on local kids. Put a good product on the field and the fans could care less about where the player came from. The NFL is about the team. They don't promote the individuals like the NBA or MLB does.

I grant that I feel Young is an upgrade over Carr. Bush is an upgrade over Davis. D'Brickashaw is a big upgrade over Pitts because then Pitts is also an upgrade over Wade if he moves to RT. Williams is a huge upgrade over Babin or Peek or whoever else the team wants to play at DE. If you have an average power forward, an average point guard, and a poor shooting guard, and a poor center you don't draft the point guard that is the best player in the draft if there is a center that is right below him as far as talent, but improves your team more.

thunderkyss
02-13-2006, 10:36 AM
Vince Young, no matter how many diseases he has cured, no matter how many seas he has parted is not a guarantee. I think he will be a great QB, but it's not a lock.
Carr isn't a lock.

If he was from any other school in America this wouldn't be a question. The NFL doesn't need to rely on local kids. if he wasn't from Houston, you guys would be missing one arguing point.


I grant that I feel Young is an upgrade over Carr. Bush is an upgrade over Davis. D'Brickashaw is a big upgrade over Pitts because then Pitts is also an upgrade over Wade if he moves to RT. Williams is a huge upgrade over Babin or Peek or whoever else the team wants to play at DE. If you have an average power forward, an average point guard, and a poor shooting guard, and a poor center you don't draft the point guard that is the best player in the draft if there is a center that is right below him as far as talent, but improves your team more.
It depends. In Basketball, one man makes a huge difference. You can be like the sixers, and build your team around an undersized gaurd, or you can build around a 7' forward..... The Sixers have, and will have trouble winning the Championship, even though there are few talented gaurds as tough as Iverson. The Spurs on the other hand can take journeymen and high energy players like Ginobli, Parker, and Horry and win championships. I don't think you'd know those names if they weren't playing for Paupovich, with Tim Duncan(Horry excluded).

TheOgre
02-13-2006, 10:47 AM
I don't think this thread starter is a coach. His phrasing and takes on the situation seem more like that of a high school or college student than that of an experienced coach.

vtech9
02-13-2006, 10:50 AM
I would like to retract my generalization statement. I don't think VY fans are necessarily Carr haters. There are a larger majority of the Carr haters that are VY fans than not, though.

I think the Montana/Young, Green/Warner situations were different. First off, Montana was already a Super Bowl winning QB at that point and Young wasn't a hometown kid. I think the main problem Carr would face is because Young is a hometown kid. Warner was a new addition to the roster and Green was hurt in the preseason. By the time he was healthy, Warner had led the Rams to a Super Bowl win.

Vinny, I double checked and you are correct. However, they were a few points off in the grading (one that I can think of right now with out looking had Peppers at 4.88 and Carr at 4.86). Both were pictured as Quality players that could probably see a few pro bowls. Unfortunately for that draft year it was weak as far as a top of the draft goes. He was considered the franchise QB prospect and was the smarter pick then. If the team could go back they might draft differently.

Vince Young, no matter how many diseases he has cured, no matter how many seas he has parted is not a guarantee. I think he will be a great QB, but it's not a lock. Reggie Bush is not a guarantee. D'Brickashaw is not a guarantee. There are no guarantees at this level. The team has more needs than a QB that may or may not be the greatest ever. If he was from any other school in America this wouldn't be a question. The NFL doesn't need to rely on local kids. Put a good product on the field and the fans could care less about where the player came from. The NFL is about the team. They don't promote the individuals like the NBA or MLB does.

I grant that I feel Young is an upgrade over Carr. Bush is an upgrade over Davis. D'Brickashaw is a big upgrade over Pitts because then Pitts is also an upgrade over Wade if he moves to RT. Williams is a huge upgrade over Babin or Peek or whoever else the team wants to play at DE. If you have an average power forward, an average point guard, and a poor shooting guard, and a poor center you don't draft the point guard that is the best player in the draft if there is a center that is right below him as far as talent, but improves your team more.
For me personally, I don't particularly like the 'Horns, so Young coming from that school has nothing to do with it. The same goes for the reason I thought Ben Roethlesberger was the best QB coming out that year. I felt that Ben had better intangibles than either Rivers and Eli. I thought he showed better pocket presence, better leadership, and more confidence, than the other two. Right now I would say that Matt L. is more polished and ready for the NFL than Vince Y. is, but I also feel that Vince Y. has a much higher ceiling. I'm not against taking Matt L. or Vince Y., or even trading down. I think Matt will be the better choice in the short term, but I think Vince is by far the better choice in the long run because he has much more potential. That's the scary thing about Vince though, because Carr had so much potential.

Right now, David is equivalent to a Rookie IMHO. He still has to be taught how to be an NFL QB, he has to learn a new system, and he has to earn the respect of his teammates as well as prove that he is worth the money. The difference between a Rookie QB coming in and Carr, is that the fans won't give Carr the leeway to make mistakes and grow. Like Texans Chic said, Carr has lost the initial goodwill of the fans.

HoustonFrog
02-13-2006, 10:51 AM
These threads are actually making me change my idea of drafting Bush and instead trading down for Defense. You get a guy who is a stud in Williams or the LBs like Hawk, you get extra picks to use on O-lineman that fit the zone scheme and TEs and not one Bush fan or VY fan can talk...lol.:ok:

MorKnolle
02-13-2006, 10:52 AM
its called salary cap issues... we will only have 9 million left to get some lineman. last time i checked good lineman dont come cheap.

and as for the guy movin to the WC i am glad that you are from here and you stayed a Texan fan.. at least shows you are not a fair weather fan and I appreaciate that.:ok:

And drafting Vince and trading Carr will free up cap room? Vince will cost more than Bush and trading Carr is another $8 million off the cap.

Carr Bombed
02-13-2006, 10:54 AM
These threads are actually making me change my idea of drafting Bush and instead trading down for Defense. You get a guy who is a stud in Williams or the LBs like Hawk, you get extra picks to use on O-lineman that fit the zone scheme and TEs and not one Bush fan or VY fan can talk...lol.:ok: Even though I've blasted them before, (The trade downers), I'm starting to lean that way also. After almost two months of VY vs Reggie I'm getting tired of hearing about both. Trading down is starting to sound like the smart thing to do.

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 11:18 AM
I admit that I was originally a Draft Bush guy. After I've done a more thorough look at the team I think trading down, getting extra picks, and improving the weakest areas of the team, O-Line and defense is the best option.

MorKnolle
02-13-2006, 11:21 AM
Are you sure that had nothing to do with Kurt Warner?? No Kurt, No SuperBowl. Marshall was a big part of that, but he didn't bring that kinda play to Indy, and you haven't seen anything like it since Kurt Left.

Kurt Warner definitely had a big part in the Super Bowl runs, but I think Trent Green could have done about the same while Marshall was the guy that really kept that offense going as a running threat and a receiving threat out of the backfield (1381 rushing, 1048 receiving yards and 12 total TDs in 1999, his first year in St. Louis and the year they finally won the Super Bowl, 1359 rushing, 830 receiving yards, and 26 total TDs in 14 games in 2000, 1382 rushing, 765 receiving yards, and 21 total TDs in 14 games in 2001 and a Super Bowl loss that year).

Every thing here is true about David Carr, four years into the league. The word unique, however, doesn't mean the same thing in reference to Carr.

All players are technically unique, not sure where this one was going.

If Vince was my QB, I would try my best to keep him behind the line of scrimmage. Not so far as to ruin his game, but I want him to understand that I need him to throw the ball. I need to get him out of the pocket when the line collapses..... But I need him to make plays behind the line of scrimmage... that's what seperates McNabb/Culpepper from Vick. Vince by the way is a better passer than Dante & Donovan.

OK, so you would keep Vince behind the LOS as much as possible, therefore negating his most of his running skills, then he has to rely on his passing skills that are not anything great right now. Sure most people think he can improve his passing skills, but it's not that easy, otherwise Michael Vick would be a great passing QB now too. Keeping VY behind the LOS most of the time, as you want to do, basically makes him a bigger version of Michael Vick that may or may not be able to increase his passing abilities to make him a worthwhile pick. Funny how it used to be that Vince is a necessary pick because he can run all over the place, and now his wings are being clipped on that aspect of his game so what's left? As for him being better passers than Daunte Culpepper or Donovan McNabb right now, that is so far from being an accurate statement. In 3-5 years I can see Vince putting up numbers like McNabb did his 2nd and 3rd years in the league (58% completions, 3300 yards, 22 TDs, 13 INTS, 550 rushing yards) if he has a similar team to what McNabb had, but a year like McNabb had in 2004 (64% completions, 3875 yards, 31 TDs, 8 INTs, 104.7 rating)? I don't think so. McNabb started out as a running QB like VY will, but it took him six years, good coaching, and a great surrounding team to turn him into an efficient passing QB. As for Culpepper comparisons, I don't see VY having #s like Culpepper did in 2000 (63% completions, 3937 yards, 33 TDs, 16 INTs, 98.0 rating, 470 rushing yards) for a long time, or especially what Culpepper did in 2004 (69% completions, 4717 yards, 39 TDs, 11 INTs, 110.9 rating, 406 rushing yards). I don't see another season like Culpepper had in 2004 coming along again for a long, long time from anyone.

If you saw Vince in person, then you know he is more than just a running QB. If I had seen anything to make me think David had what it takes to raise the confidence level of his teammates......... then I would think he might be something special.

I don't know how seeing him in person alters any opinions on this, I'd prefer to see him in a game on TV or on actual game tape.

McNair's got it...... Brady, Peyton.... Big Ben.. yep he's got it.... Delhomme... got it........ Favre.... he's got so much, it spills over to the fans thinking they are better than what they are......

Vince has got it....

Carr, nope........ Bledsoe... un-un..... Moon......... no.... Brad Johnson doesn't have it(ring or no)....... Marino.. unfortunately didn't have it.... Randall Cuningham doesn't have it either....

Brad Johnosn illustrates that "it" isn't necessary to win a superbowl.... McNair, Peyton... illustrate that it doesn't garrantee a SuperBowl either....

But I would love to have a QB like that.

Back to the old ambiguous "IT" argument. I had a feeling it would resurface sometime soon.

HoustonFrog
02-13-2006, 11:23 AM
Even though I've blasted them before, (The trade downers), I'm starting to lean that way also. After almost two months of VY vs Reggie I'm getting tired of hearing about both. Trading down is starting to sound like the smart thing to do.

Yeah I won't want O-line with the trade down Top 5'er but that stud D player would make me happy. I think the extra picks and along with already having 3 more in the Top 66 can fill some holes and we can find O-lineman to fit the new scheme. I still am not fond of the RB/QB combo we have but it may be best.

Toxicology
02-13-2006, 11:25 AM
I'm going to assume that Kubiak gets to make the call on the first pick. With that, we need to peer into his mindset. I think there's a lot more downside with him staying with Carr over Young.

1. If he stays with Carr - he better be right and they need to win quickly. Expectations will be a 7-9 season or so. Bush better not be a bust. After all, it was the coaches fault that we slid to 2-14. With Carr being coached up, and with 4 draft picks in the first 66, we should be able to get back to 7-9. Those will be the expectations, fair or not. After that, we better be in the playoff hunt. (nevermind what things would be like if VY goes nuts for the Titans)

2. If he goes with VY, the pressure's off. Expectations will be measured and we're basically starting over. Since the selection would be VY, the fans will be kind enough to give a "new honeymoon period." Enthusias will be at a new high - like when we did the expansion draft. VY won't be expected to do much until the 2nd half of 2006-2007 season, at the earlist. He takes the helm in 2007 full time . . . after we have completed the painful transition into a 4-3 defense.

In short, Kubiak will decide what he thinks is best for the team. But I submit that there's a strong incentive for him to choose VY, an incentive that is best for him.

Now, if Kubiak decides that VY is the right choice, can he sell McNair on it? I have to think that McNair didn't hire Kubiak only to tell him what to do with the most important decision.

SESupergenius
02-13-2006, 11:30 AM
Alot of time goes into the games and its not XBOX or MADDEN, its real out there. And again VY is more of a threat than DC will ever be. Overall VY is just harder to prepare for and dont worry I dont like UT but VY just makes people around him better, something DC has never done in his four years. I know I will get plenty of feedback on this but trust me on this one... I hope the Texans have something up there sleeve because its not looking good ..... AGAIN
Casserly is an NFL GM, I don't think he is very good, so I am supposed take what you give as the gospel just because you say you are a coach. Um...no thanks. Kijana Carter was the next best think to Dickerson according to a lot of coaches. So much for that being an absolute.

MorKnolle
02-13-2006, 11:34 AM
I'm going to assume that Kubiak gets to make the call on the first pick. With that, we need to peer into his mindset. I think there's a lot more downside with him staying with Carr over Young.

1. If he stays with Carr - he better be right and they need to win quickly. Expectations will be a 7-9 season or so. Bush better not be a bust. After all, it was the coaches fault that we slid to 2-14. With Carr being coached up, and with 4 draft picks in the first 66, we should be able to get back to 7-9. Those will be the expectations, fair or not. After that, we better be in the playoff hunt. (nevermind what things would be like if VY goes nuts for the Titans)

2. If he goes with VY, the pressure's off. Expectations will be measured and we're basically starting over. Since the selection would be VY, the fans will be kind enough to give a "new honeymoon period." Enthusias will be at a new high - like when we did the expansion draft. VY won't be expected to do much until the 2nd half of 2006-2007 season, at the earlist. He takes the helm in 2007 full time . . . after we have completed the painful transition into a 4-3 defense.

In short, Kubiak will decide what he thinks is best for the team. But I submit that there's a strong incentive for him to choose VY, an incentive that is best for him.

Now, if Kubiak decides that VY is the right choice, can he sell McNair on it? I have to think that McNair didn't hire Kubiak only to tell him what to do with the most important decision.

Can we drop this argument already? VY is not going to "go nuts" with the Titans this coming season for a number of reasons, so that whole argument on how that could help sway our decision should be thrown out.

1) The Titans have Steve McNair, Vince is not about to start over him this year, probably not in 2007.

2) The Titans are almost as lousy of a team as us. McNair only managed 3160 yards, 16 TDs, and 11 INTs (82.4 rating) for them this year, so Vince isn't going to somehow do that much better if he even gets to play significant time.

3) The Titans for at least the 2nd year in a row are in major slary cap trouble. They are going to have to make widespread cuts and restructurings like they did last year, which will cut away at what little talent they do have (FYI Drew Bennett and Tyrone Calico are their top two receiving threats right now and are not any better than Andre and Mathis).

There are probably some other valid reasons I can think of, but for now I'll leave it at this. I agree that if we pass on Vince (or should I say after we do) that many fans will have less patience if Carr doesn't step up immediately (some of that impatience is justified, but at the same time the entire team is learning a new system not just our QB, so a little adjustment time will likely be necessary), but can we throw out this added argument of Vince maybe/likely going "nuts" somewhere else? That much isn't going to happen on almost any team, especially the Titans.

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 11:36 AM
I'm going to assume that Kubiak gets to make the call on the first pick. With that, we need to peer into his mindset. I think there's a lot more downside with him staying with Carr over Young.

2. If he goes with VY, the pressure's off. Expectations will be measured and we're basically starting over. Since the selection would be VY, the fans will be kind enough to give a "new honeymoon period." Enthusias will be at a new high - like when we did the expansion draft. VY won't be expected to do much until the 2nd half of 2006-2007 season, at the earlist. He takes the helm in 2007 full time . . . after we have completed the painful transition into a 4-3 defense.

The pressure won't be off for long. Young would be sitting on the bench the first season (hopefully) to learn and grow. The team would be awful again and have a low pick next season. Meanwhile the stadium was once again half empty because the fans aren't going to go watch a lousy team even if Young is on the team. They would need to win big that next season. If they aren't in the playoffs by 2007 the team will see a GM change and then probably a coaching change again.

Enthusiasm is bred by winning. Adding a playmaker of Young's talent won't help in the long run if they don't win.

Toxicology
02-13-2006, 12:18 PM
Can we drop this argument already? VY is not going to "go nuts" with the Titans this coming season for a number of reasons, so that whole argument on how that could help sway our decision should be thrown out.

. . .

I agree that if we pass on Vince (or should I say after we do) that many fans will have less patience if Carr doesn't step up immediately (some of that impatience is justified, but at the same time the entire team is learning a new system not just our QB, so a little adjustment time will likely be necessary),

the Vy going nuts was an aside (thus in parenthesis). Agreed, it's unlikely that he'll do anything fantastic in 2006-7. My point should have been phrased more like - fans will be wondering what might be if VY were here. Nevermind that VY isn't likely to do anything in 2006-7. Fans will be rumbling if we don't do decently with Carr.

Your comment re patience with Carr is what I'm more interested in discussing. The precise point I'm trying to explore is whether Kubiak will consider this in his decision making. I have to believe that it will be a factor.

Toxicology
02-13-2006, 12:20 PM
The pressure won't be off for long. Young would be sitting on the bench the first season (hopefully) to learn and grow. The team would be awful again and have a low pick next season. Meanwhile the stadium was once again half empty because the fans aren't going to go watch a lousy team even if Young is on the team. They would need to win big that next season. If they aren't in the playoffs by 2007 the team will see a GM change and then probably a coaching change again.

Enthusiasm is bred by winning. Adding a playmaker of Young's talent won't help in the long run if they don't win.

I agree generally, but I think fans will be patient in VY's first year as QB. Fans won't be expecting all that much in 2007-2008. Toward the back half of that season, we would hear some grubling if he looks clueless.

It seems you discount "fan expectations" as part of Kubiak's decisionmaking process. I think it's highly relevant.

jerek
02-13-2006, 12:28 PM
I agree generally, but I think fans will be patient in VY's first year as QB. Fans won't be expecting all that much in 2007-2008. Toward the back half of that season, we would hear some grubling if he looks clueless.

It seems you discount "fan expectations" as part of Kubiak's decisionmaking process. I think it's highly relevant.

Fans? Or Vince Young fans?

Don't get me wrong. Texans blue all the way. But if I have to watch Vince hack his way through his first two seasons ... I have sat through bad coaching for four years, I don't want to sit through a rookie QB for another 2-3.

That is the difference between two fans (you and I) ... but don't start saying "fans" regarding patience for Young, as if there is one and only one category of them. According to the David Carr poll posted not long back, Vincers are 4:1 underdogs right now, and this on a MB that is decidedly far more generous to Vince and his place on this team than the national media/anaylsts.

billtxus
02-13-2006, 12:40 PM
While it is more likely they will draft RB over VY, I think they had to pay DC just to get anything from should someday they wish to trade him.

While I like VY, to me if they draft him its like starting over from scratch. We will have to wait a year, two, maybe longer for VY to learn the pro game, so he could even start. With David the team could easily be an above .500 team next year.

My concerns about VY are these. In college he was a man among boys. Whenever he got in trouble he could run, and it would take more than one guy to bring him down. I saw McNabb the first few years, and Vick, everytime they went back to pass the first option was run. For Vick this still goes one, McNabb has finally turned into a decent QB, but it took 6-7 years?

VY didn't have to read defenses, he didn't have to play a pro-style offense where he dropped back, and he played on a team which other than a couple of games a year completely overmatched its opponents. Playing against teams like North Texas State, or SW Lousiana St, even the Big 12 wasn't much this past year.

Whenever I've seen college players who were men among boys go to the pros, the dropoff has been very significant. They are used to bullying their way around and can't do that in the pros. The have to learn the fundementals of the game. Not saying VY can't or won't learn them, just wondering how long it will take.

So my question to you would be how long will it take VY to be a pro-bowl QB?

Texans_Chick
02-13-2006, 12:56 PM
There are probably some other valid reasons I can think of, but for now I'll leave it at this. I agree that if we pass on Vince (or should I say after we do) that many fans will have less patience if Carr doesn't step up immediately (some of that impatience is justified, but at the same time the entire team is learning a new system not just our QB, so a little adjustment time will likely be necessary), but can we throw out this added argument of Vince maybe/likely going "nuts" somewhere else? That much isn't going to happen on almost any team, especially the Titans.


Whether it is fair or not, the fans have very little patience with David Carr left. You come to a team with a reserve of good will, and over time it erodes if people aren't seeing good play.

Learning a new system takes time, but I believe people are sick of the recurrent is this David Carr's break out year question. I like him more than many, but he has become a national punchline--not just another QB with promise. Some of the ugliniest things I've heard about DC have been just in the tailgate. With new coaching, if things don't get better fast, it will be bigtime ugly. Fair or unfair, it is just the way it will be.

If VY gets on to the team, though people expect great things from him, he is not expected to learn everything immediately. With the general populace sorta fans, they are willing to wait to see him progress.

But whether or not he can immediately make an impact with the Titans, there is no doubt that there will be some angry Texans fans about that. It is just human nature and you can try to ignore that, but it just is what it is.

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 01:10 PM
texan chick i like that last post. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about DC is a good QB but he just needs a different place to start. Steve Young did it and so did Brett Favre.

As for you guys that keep questioning my coaching profession which is normal because heck you guys question the NFL coaches on Sunday...:yahoo: and dont say you dont because you do...
YOu have to adjust your offense to any personnel and dont say you dont because any coach will tell you have to adjust your defense (cowboys) and offense to your personnel.. If you dont have good WRs you modify your offense to fit your best personnel...which maybe RBs...If you dont have enough LBs then you go to be a 4-3 or enough DE you go to a 3-4. Thats why Babin wasnt any good because he never was a LB in college he played a DE in the 4-3. As for VY they used his strength while he was at UT just like they did when he was at Madison HS.. but he didnt start out this way at Madison. They had to adjust the offense to get the best use out of the QB. For example The Redskins did the same this year and went to a shotgun formation to help Brunnell get better numbers.. JAX did the same with Leftwich.. Last time i checked these two teams went to the playoffs.
Heck two years ago when ATL made it to the playoffs with Mora and his first year he said he was going to allow MV to be MV and it paid off. This year was bad due to alot of injuries and no WR's.

Its that way all the way around and if you try to say you dont change schemes then you really dont know football.. And im sure I will get questioned again and its okay Im used to it... its normal in my profession.. dont you think you get questioned in yours...:ok:

Toxicology
02-13-2006, 01:12 PM
Fans? Or Vince Young fans?

Don't get me wrong. Texans blue all the way. But if I have to watch Vince hack his way through his first two seasons ... I have sat through bad coaching for four years, I don't want to sit through a rookie QB for another 2-3.

That is the difference between two fans (you and I) ... but don't start saying "fans" regarding patience for Young, as if there is one and only one category of them. According to the David Carr poll posted not long back, Vincers are 4:1 underdogs right now, and this on a MB that is decidedly far more generous to Vince and his place on this team than the national media/anaylsts.

You make a good point - there are probably several pockets or subgroups of "fans" that have different patience levels. But is that fact relevant to Kubiak's decisionmaking process? I think Kubiak gets that some "more educated" fans understand that the transition to the 4-3 and new offensive scheme will hinder progress and should temper expectations. But that's the brain talking. Fan patience is also emotional and like it or not, if Kubes keeps Carr, patience will run thin if we don't start next season well. And he knows that.

By the way, as between you and I - I don't know what you favor but I am a proponent of drafting VY. It's quite odd. I have followed pro football for 25 years. I am categorically against "run first" quarterbacks. Philosophically, I think you should have a pocket passer with some mobility in today's game. Not the other way around.

But Vince Young makes me want to chuck my belief system in football. I don't know how else to explain it. As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination. He is truly off the charts. I think VY will be no worse than steve mcnair. I think he will probably be a donovan McNabb once he learns that his legs will make plays, but his mind and arm will win games. I think there's a good chance that he could become the best QB in the league. For those that like math, I'd say there's 15% chance that VY will be a bust (for a #1 pick, that means no better than Mike Vick); 40% chance he'll be like Steve McNair; 30% chance he'll be like Donovan McNabb (league mvp); 15% chance he'll be the best QB in the league. I can mess with the numbers a bit, but that's close to my thinking.

Toxicology
02-13-2006, 01:14 PM
McNabb has finally turned into a decent QB, but it took 6-7 years?


So my question to you would be how long will it take VY to be a pro-bowl QB?

McNabb is a perennial league MVP candidate. Not a "decent QB." And the fans booed the hell out of that selection.

I think VY's progression will take something like McNabb's. If that's what I'd get by taking him, I do it in a heartbeat.

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 01:19 PM
orginally posted by:Toxicology

As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination.

Cant coach that... you either have it or you dont...:redtowel:

thunderkyss
02-13-2006, 01:23 PM
Kurt Warner definitely had a big part in the Super Bowl runs, but I think Trent Green could have done about the same while Marshall was the guy that really kept that offense going as a running threat and a receiving threat out of the backfield.
OK...... & your point??

All players are technically unique, not sure where this one was going.


OK, so you would keep Vince behind the LOS as much as possible, therefore negating his most of his running skills, then he has to rely on his passing skills that are not anything great right now. Sure most people think he can improve his passing skills, but it's not that easy, otherwise Michael Vick would be a great passing QB now too. Keeping VY behind the LOS most of the time, as you want to do, basically makes him a bigger version of Michael Vick that may or may not be able to increase his passing abilities to make him a worthwhile pick. Funny how it used to be that Vince is a necessary pick because he can run all over the place, and now his wings are being clipped on that aspect of his game so what's left? As for him being better passers than Daunte Culpepper or Donovan McNabb right now, that is so far from being an accurate statement. In 3-5 years I can see Vince putting up numbers like McNabb did his 2nd and 3rd years in the league (58% completions, 3300 yards, 22 TDs, 13 INTS, 550 rushing yards) if he has a similar team to what McNabb had, but a year like McNabb had in 2004 (64% completions, 3875 yards, 31 TDs, 8 INTs, 104.7 rating)? I don't think so. McNabb started out as a running QB like VY will, but it took him six years, good coaching, and a great surrounding team to turn him into an efficient passing QB. As for Culpepper comparisons, I don't see VY having #s like Culpepper did in 2000 (63% completions, 3937 yards, 33 TDs, 16 INTs, 98.0 rating, 470 rushing yards) for a long time, or especially what Culpepper did in 2004 (69% completions, 4717 yards, 39 TDs, 11 INTs, 110.9 rating, 406 rushing yards). I don't see another season like Culpepper had in 2004 coming along again for a long, long time from anyone.
I've never said that Vince's rushing ability was a big reason I wanted to draft him. I've never compared Vince to Vick. I've always compared him to McNabb & Culpepper. Both who makes plays behind the line of scrimmage. Which, isn't the same thing as staying in the pocket. I like Vince because of his ability to make plays when the plays breakdown, for whatever reason. Having Wheels, is a big part of that. But I've always said that his play from Center to sideline is what attracts me to him, and that he plays that game better than Carr. He looks down field when he runs.. sometimes still looking at multiple recievers. He pump fakes, he jukes, he freezes the defense, and he throws better on the run than David. If I said he's a better passer than McNabb & Culpepper now, then I messed up. I do believe he is a better passer than Vick now, and better than Culpepper/McNabb, when they came out of college.


I don't know how seeing him in person alters any opinions on this, I'd prefer to see him in a game on TV or on actual game tape. I'd just imagine that you could feel the "it" if you were in the crowd. That, and I hear TV doesn't capture the Halo effect emmitted from his greatness.

Back to the old ambiguous "IT" argument. I had a feeling it would resurface sometime soon.

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 01:24 PM
I agree generally, but I think fans will be patient in VY's first year as QB. Fans won't be expecting all that much in 2007-2008. Toward the back half of that season, we would hear some grubling if he looks clueless.

It seems you discount "fan expectations" as part of Kubiak's decisionmaking process. I think it's highly relevant.

I'm not discounting fan expectations at all. You are blinded if you think the fans will sit and be content with a subpar team over the next few years. There are a lot more non-UT Texans fans than UT Texans fans. Those UT fans are the ones that might patiently wait for the team to blossom over the next 4 years with Young. The majority of the fans are going to expect to see results sooner. McNair has said this as well. If you want to win sooner you don't draft a rookie QB onto a team with a lot of holes. Roethlisberger stepped into a team that had everything it needed but a QB. Young would not be stepping into that situation here.

infantrycak
02-13-2006, 01:25 PM
Thats why Babin wasnt any good because he never was a LB in college he played a DE in the 4-3.

That really doesn't seem like a statement a coach would make or heck even a long time NFL observer. Most OLB's in a 3-4 were DE's in college, such as:

Clark Haggans, Joey Porter, Roosevelt Colvin, Tully Banta Cain, Monty Beisel, Kailee Wong, Charlie Anderson, Antwan Peek,Teddy Brushci, Demarcus Ware, Shaun Merriman, Willie McGinist, etc.

tulexan
02-13-2006, 01:25 PM
orginally posted by:Toxicology

As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination.

Cant coach that... you either have it or you dont...:redtowel:


Vince Lombardi would disagree with you.

jerek
02-13-2006, 01:27 PM
texan chick i like that last post. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about DC is a good QB but he just needs a different place to start. Steve Young did it and so did Brett Favre.

As for you guys that keep questioning my coaching profession which is normal because heck you guys question the NFL coaches on Sunday...:yahoo: and dont say you dont because you do...
YOu have to adjust your offense to any personnel and dont say you dont because any coach will tell you have to adjust your defense (cowboys) and offense to your personnel.. If you dont have good WRs you modify your offense to fit your best personnel...which maybe RBs...If you dont have enough LBs then you go to be a 4-3 or enough DE you go to a 3-4. Thats why Babin wasnt any good because he never was a LB in college he played a DE in the 4-3. As for VY they used his strength while he was at UT just like they did when he was at Madison HS.. but he didnt start out this way at Madison. They had to adjust the offense to get the best use out of the QB. For example The Redskins did the same this year and went to a shotgun formation to help Brunnell get better numbers.. JAX did the same with Leftwich.. Last time i checked these two teams went to the playoffs.
Heck two years ago when ATL made it to the playoffs with Mora and his first year he said he was going to allow MV to be MV and it paid off. This year was bad due to alot of injuries and no WR's.

Its that way all the way around and if you try to say you dont change schemes then you really dont know football.. And im sure I will get questioned again and its okay Im used to it... its normal in my profession.. dont you think you get questioned in yours...:ok:

Exp, I don't agree with your stance on VY, but truth be told you are dead on about the necessity of being a coach and adjusting your game. Many if not all of the consistently elite coaches adjust their game, sometimes season by season, based on the personnel they have. Coach K at Duke is famous for this; read his book sometime, I highly recommend it. He spends page after page describing how he successfully tailored the Duke game to each class's players' strengths, and yes, their weaknesses too. In my own coaching experiences, even at the lower levels, that has been very necessary.

There is a difference between coaching junior high and NFL, no doubt, but there are still many constants between the two and I believe that a key ingredient of leadership is utilizing your players to their utmost in designing for their individual strengths, while minimizing their reliance on weak aspects of their individual games. It has been one of the utmost keys to my own coaching successes at this point in my life.

As for Vince, it is not that I do not believe he won't be a good NFL player - I believe he will. He has shown a lot of skills and some solid intangibles as well, and giving him time to polish his stuff under pro conditions, I believe he will be a good, possibly great, pro quarterback. However, I still believe that Carr can and will get it done in Houston, with Kubiak, and being that we have Carr who is at worst serviceable and at best good, I think we need to use the pick elsewhere (and I don't necessarily mean Bush: I would like us to trade the pick if we can secure a good deal and use the extra draft real estate wisely.)

While I am not convinced that DC is a first-ballot HOFer, the next Elway, or what have you, I have seen Super Bowls won on the shoulders of average quarterbacks who played for outstanding coaching staffs who built an all-round, good team. I know that DC can be average, and I do firmly believe that he has the potential to be much better. I appreciate the staggering team aspect to this game of football and believe that DC is a hard-working guy with sufficient talent to get it done, quite possibly at a high level, and I would like to use the #1 to address other, worse needs on our team. That is my basis for not drafting Vince.

Long story short, I agree with your stance on coaching to the strengths of your personnel, and just wanted to add to it.

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 01:29 PM
texan chick i like that last post. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about DC is a good QB but he just needs a different place to start. Steve Young did it and so did Brett Favre.
:

Favre didn't have to go somewhere else to get another shot. He needed to go somewhere to get a shot. There is a difference. Maybe that's what you meant, but Favre's situation was different. Young's was a little more similar, but I can't remember the scenario with his departure from Tampa Bay.

thunderkyss
02-13-2006, 01:30 PM
2) The Titans are almost as lousy of a team as us. McNair only managed 3160 yards, 16 TDs, and 11 INTs (82.4 rating) for them this year, so Vince isn't going to somehow do that much better if he even gets to play significant time.


This, is a better-than-good Quarterback on a bad team.

tulexan
02-13-2006, 01:33 PM
I never agree with statements like "X player is good, he just needs to go somewhere else to succeed". If Carr is good, then we should try to get him to be successful on our team with the new system, not ship him off to Miami, Oakland, or some other team to watch him lead them to the playoffs and Super Bowl.

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 01:36 PM
Its that way all the way around and if you try to say you dont change schemes then you really dont know football.. And im sure I will get questioned again and its okay Im used to it... its normal in my profession.. dont you think you get questioned in yours...:ok:

As for coaching philosophies, you can change your philosophy to fit the players you have, you can change the players to fit your philosophy, or you can force players to fit into your philosophy. I guess you could also change the players and bring in the wrong ones, but that's still about the same as the last option. I think the Texans did a lot more of the last two options and not enough of the first.

There is nothing wrong with getting players to fit your scheme. If they aren't the player you need you get someone different. The Broncos have kept the same blocking scheme for years. They went out and found the players to make it work. Are you suggesting Shanahan has done it wrong? He should have changed his scheme to fit the players that they could have had? If you do your homework and draft guys that fit into your plans you won't have that problem.

Plus, this isn't Madden. There are a lot of differences between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE. You can't just change your Defensive scheme because you have too many of one position. Babin could play DE in a 4-3 on the weakside. Babin could not play DE in a 3-4.

Toxicology
02-13-2006, 01:36 PM
I'm not discounting fan expectations at all. You are blinded if you think the fans will sit and be content with a subpar team over the next few years. .

Let's take "other fans." (I'm assuming you're not a UT fan). If we took VY, and you thought it was a mistake, would you really be upset by the end of next year if we go 4-12 and have only seen a bit of VY? Would you be thinking that we're a .500 club with Carr and Bush or multiple picks?

How about the 2007-8 season? Would you be upset if VY shows skills/development of a Carson Palmer but the team is just pushing 6-7 wins?

I think the progression of this team with going the VY route should be measured against the progression of the Bengals with Carson Palmer. And I'd be happy with that type of progress and building. Those guys have a shot at something special, in no small part b/c they have a franchise QB to build around.

So, tracking back to the original point, I do think the pressure will be a bit less for Kubes in the first 2 years. But things do have to progress like Cincy. If he does that, I suspect the vast majority of fans would be very happy with the direction of the franchise. Turning things around in that way does not have to take a 4 year of suckdom path like some are making it out to be.

HoustonFrog
02-13-2006, 01:42 PM
I too agree with Texan Chicks thread. In all reality if Carr went somewhere else people would already think he was the stud they needed and he could get some benefit of the doubt. Our fans would do the same with a new QB learning a new system..to an extent. So there can be a case made for the split. I just don't see it happening.

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 01:45 PM
Let's take "other fans." (I'm assuming you're not a UT fan). If we took VY, and you thought it was a mistake, would you really be upset by the end of next year if we go 4-12 and have only seen a bit of VY? Would you be thinking that we're a .500 club with Carr and Bush or multiple picks?

How about the 2007-8 season? Would you be upset if VY shows skills/development of a Carson Palmer but the team is just pushing 6-7 wins?

I think the progression of this team with going the VY route should be measured against the progression of the Bengals with Carson Palmer. And I'd be happy with that type of progress and building. Those guys have a shot at something special, in no small part b/c they have a franchise QB to build around.

So, tracking back to the original point, I do think the pressure will be a bit less for Kubes in the first 2 years. But things do have to progress like Cincy. If he does that, I suspect the vast majority of fans would be very happy with the direction of the franchise. Turning things around in that way does not have to take a 4 year of suckdom path like some are making it out to be.

I root for the Longhorns, but since I'm not from Texas I can't fully consider myself a tried and true UT fan. I enjoy college football and like to watch very good teams play.

I still think the fans and McNair expect significant progress this year. If Kubiak thinks they can be 8-8 with Young on the roster that could be the ticket. I think that's the mark they need to shoot for this year. Whoever they add needs to help them get back to .500 this season and set them up for a playoff run the following year. If they don't think Young can get them there this year they shouldn't take him.

If they come out and stink I'll still go to games, but I won't be content with a 4-12 record next season. They go out the next season and discover that Young's game doesn't translate to the NFL as easily as they thought and they go 3-13 under him the following season. Maybe by the 3rd year they get to 7-9. It could be that in 2007 he leads them to 8-8. There is no way of knowing at this time. I think there are some fans that will be willing to give them a little more time, but there are less of them than there are that want some improvements next year.

LBC_Justin
02-13-2006, 01:47 PM
orginally posted by:Toxicology

As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination.

Cant coach that... you either have it or you dont...:redtowel:
The problem is we aren't choosing between drafting Vince Young or David Carr.

We are choosing between Vince Young, Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, and others. You could easily make the case that Bush and Leinart have as much poise, leadership, toughness and determination as Vince Young plus you could make the case that both of them are more NFL ready and less of a risky pick.

MorKnolle
02-13-2006, 02:21 PM
Let's try this and see if it makes sense. Are we all in agreement that Vince should see the field very sparingly if at all during his rookie year? Whether that be because his skills are not ready to be an NFL QB, you think he game is ready but you want him to sit for a year to get used to the speed of the game, or you just want someone else to be the whipping stick behind our OLine in a new offensive system that everyone will be trying to learn, whatever the reason, does everyone agree Vince should not really play this year unless it's at the end of a blowout game or he has just remarkable progression in his game?

That said, of course the fans patience with Carr is growing thin, I can understand to a certain point why it would be, but their impatience is going to be 10x worse with Vince here next year than without him. If Vince isn't here, if Carr and the offense don't have immediate success then people will be grumbling about it, but they won't have had a chance to see Vince in action at whatever team he ends up going to, so they won't have anything out of Vince to show that he is some great QB and their only options for running the offense will be continue with Carr or put in Dave Ragone. The impatience will be there, but no worse than this year.

If the Texans do draft Vince, every single incomplete pass that Carr throws will have a lot of fans booing and calling for Vince, which will either undermine what little support the fans do have for Carr and draw them away from the games, or it will force the Texans to put Vince into the game long before he is ready to. The fans will have so much less patience for Carr and be calling for his removal from the lineup long before he should be removed, and will hold Carr and the rest of the team to much higher expectations than they otherwise would. I think much of the problems that would be happening would be everyone else on offense adjusting to the new system as much as it is Carr's fault, and when Vince steps in personally underprepared and with an offense that still isn't running our system correctly, that will only make things worse with the team. Many fans that didn't overly want Vince to begin with will be upset at the decision, and many of the fans that did want Vince will just accept it as part of his learning process and be content with our team going 2-14 again because at least Vince is getting his time, and Vince will be thrown to the wolves before he is ready and probably slow his progression as well.

Now what happens if Carr ends up turning it around and thrives in our new offense? Carr keeps rolling, the offense is putting up a lot of yards and points, team is playing well and winning. Then we have to make a decision about the future QB situation of our team. Either we are going to have to trade Vince Young, lose out on the $20+ million bonus and $6 million annual salary we've already paid him to do nothing for us and take an additional cap hit for trading him, or else we're going to have to move Carr and start our offense over again with a new QB. This is a lose-lose situation for both QBs.


Going back to the original premise that Young should not be playing much if at all during his rookie year, for this next year alone, drafting him adds nothing to our team. We have the #1 pick in the draft, and we add nothing that helps our team improve for the upcoming season other than a backup plan at QB. Then since we have Vince, people are going to demand that Carr leads the team to an 8-8 record (or some other arbitrary lofty goal) and puts up X stats or else they are going to complain and boo and demand that Vince get put in. So rather than helping Carr improve and better his chances of providing a winning product with the top pick in the draft, we add nothing that helps him along this path, and if anything the fans scrutinize him more severly for any mistakes that he makes along the way and it diminishes from their support of him. Many of these people would probably still complain at Carr if he put up numbers like Matt Hasselbeck did this year (3459 yards, 24 TDs, 9 INTs) in a Pro-Bowl year, because they demand so much more out of him in order to keep him in front of Vince.

I think this creates a situation that will leave many fans unsatisfied no matter how well Carr and the Texans do until Vince gets on the field, and if Vince does see playing time then they'll be happy with less-than-mediocre play because it's their hometown hero Vince out there. They will demand so much more out of Carr to be happy with the team than what they'd demand out of Vince and likely create unrealistic goals for the team in order to not be disgruntled with it. In my opinion, this is setting Carr up for a failure, whether it truly be a failure on the field or just in the minds of some fans that want to see Vince no matter how much Carr produces. I don't see drafting Vince as being a good situation for the team, it doesn't help the team get better around Carr, it creates a rift between many "fans" and the team, and it sets Carr up for failure (moreso in the minds of the fans rather than on the field, but lack of support and criticism will eventually impact his play on the field) and in turn sets Vince up for the same failure (more of actual failure to produce on the field as he's put into games too early in his career), and it absorbs a lot of money that could be used to improve some other area of the team while not adding anything to the existing offense (or defense) to make those better.

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 02:25 PM
Jerek,

Thanks for the support. I wish everyone else would understand what I am trying to say. .. Its not saying trade your whole scheme but adjust to our personnel.. there is a difference..:brickwall

kbourda
02-13-2006, 02:32 PM
Let's try this and see if it makes sense. Are we all in agreement that Vince should see the field very sparingly if at all during his rookie year? Whether that be because his skills are not ready to be an NFL QB, you think he game is ready but you want him to sit for a year to get used to the speed of the game, or you just want someone else to be the whipping stick behind our OLine in a new offensive system that everyone will be trying to learn, whatever the reason, does everyone agree Vince should not really play this year unless it's at the end of a blowout game or he has just remarkable progression in his game?

That said, of course the fans patience with Carr is growing thin, I can understand to a certain point why it would be, but their impatience is going to be 10x worse with Vince here next year than without him. If Vince isn't here, if Carr and the offense don't have immediate success then people will be grumbling about it, but they won't have had a chance to see Vince in action at whatever team he ends up going to, so they won't have anything out of Vince to show that he is some great QB and their only options for running the offense will be continue with Carr or put in Dave Ragone. The impatience will be there, but no worse than this year.

If the Texans do draft Vince, every single incomplete pass that Carr throws will have a lot of fans booing and calling for Vince, which will either undermine what little support the fans do have for Carr and draw them away from the games, or it will force the Texans to put Vince into the game long before he is ready to. The fans will have so much less patience for Carr and be calling for his removal from the lineup long before he should be removed, and will hold Carr and the rest of the team to much higher expectations than they otherwise would. I think much of the problems that would be happening would be everyone else on offense adjusting to the new system as much as it is Carr's fault, and when Vince steps in personally underprepared and with an offense that still isn't running our system correctly, that will only make things worse with the team. Many fans that didn't overly want Vince to begin with will be upset at the decision, and many of the fans that did want Vince will just accept it as part of his learning process and be content with our team going 2-14 again because at least Vince is getting his time, and Vince will be thrown to the wolves before he is ready and probably slow his progression as well.

Now what happens if Carr ends up turning it around and thrives in our new offense? Carr keeps rolling, the offense is putting up a lot of yards and points, team is playing well and winning. Then we have to make a decision about the future QB situation of our team. Either we are going to have to trade Vince Young, lose out on the $20+ million bonus and $6 million annual salary we've already paid him to do nothing for us and take an additional cap hit for trading him, or else we're going to have to move Carr and start our offense over again with a new QB. This is a lose-lose situation for both QBs.


Going back to the original premise that Young should not be playing much if at all during his rookie year, for this next year alone, drafting him adds nothing to our team. We have the #1 pick in the draft, and we add nothing that helps our team improve for the upcoming season other than a backup plan at QB. Then since we have Vince, people are going to demand that Carr leads the team to an 8-8 record (or some other arbitrary lofty goal) and puts up X stats or else they are going to complain and boo and demand that Vince get put in. So rather than helping Carr improve and better his chances of providing a winning product with the top pick in the draft, we add nothing that helps him along this path, and if anything the fans scrutinize him more severly for any mistakes that he makes along the way and it diminishes from their support of him. Many of these people would probably still complain at Carr if he put up numbers like Matt Hasselbeck did this year (3459 yards, 24 TDs, 9 INTs) in a Pro-Bowl year, because they demand so much more out of him in order to keep him in front of Vince.

I think this creates a situation that will leave many fans unsatisfied no matter how well Carr and the Texans do until Vince gets on the field, and if Vince does see playing time then they'll be happy with less-than-mediocre play because it's their hometown hero Vince out there. They will demand so much more out of Carr to be happy with the team than what they'd demand out of Vince and likely create unrealistic goals for the team in order to not be disgruntled with it. In my opinion, this is setting Carr up for a failure, whether it truly be a failure on the field or just in the minds of some fans that want to see Vince no matter how much Carr produces. I don't see drafting Vince as being a good situation for the team, it doesn't help the team get better around Carr, it creates a rift between many "fans" and the team, and it sets Carr up for failure (moreso in the minds of the fans rather than on the field, but lack of support and criticism will eventually impact his play on the field) and in turn sets Vince up for the same failure (more of actual failure to produce on the field as he's put into games too early in his career), and it absorbs a lot of money that could be used to improve some other area of the team while not adding anything to the existing offense (or defense) to make those better.

Good points, MorKnolle. Carr is in a really tough spot period. He's almost at a point to where he has to perform. There will be no curve for Carr whatsoever. Like Jimmy Johnson always said, the cream will always rise to the top. So all we can say is that we'll see.

jerek
02-13-2006, 02:50 PM
Let's try this and see if it makes sense. Are we all in agreement that Vince should see the field very sparingly if at all during his rookie year? Whether that be because his skills are not ready to be an NFL QB, you think he game is ready but you want him to sit for a year to get used to the speed of the game, or you just want someone else to be the whipping stick behind our OLine in a new offensive system that everyone will be trying to learn, whatever the reason, does everyone agree Vince should not really play this year unless it's at the end of a blowout game or he has just remarkable progression in his game?

That said, of course the fans patience with Carr is growing thin, I can understand to a certain point why it would be, but their impatience is going to be 10x worse with Vince here next year than without him. If Vince isn't here, if Carr and the offense don't have immediate success then people will be grumbling about it, but they won't have had a chance to see Vince in action at whatever team he ends up going to, so they won't have anything out of Vince to show that he is some great QB and their only options for running the offense will be continue with Carr or put in Dave Ragone. The impatience will be there, but no worse than this year.

If the Texans do draft Vince, every single incomplete pass that Carr throws will have a lot of fans booing and calling for Vince, which will either undermine what little support the fans do have for Carr and draw them away from the games, or it will force the Texans to put Vince into the game long before he is ready to. The fans will have so much less patience for Carr and be calling for his removal from the lineup long before he should be removed, and will hold Carr and the rest of the team to much higher expectations than they otherwise would. I think much of the problems that would be happening would be everyone else on offense adjusting to the new system as much as it is Carr's fault, and when Vince steps in personally underprepared and with an offense that still isn't running our system correctly, that will only make things worse with the team. Many fans that didn't overly want Vince to begin with will be upset at the decision, and many of the fans that did want Vince will just accept it as part of his learning process and be content with our team going 2-14 again because at least Vince is getting his time, and Vince will be thrown to the wolves before he is ready and probably slow his progression as well.

Now what happens if Carr ends up turning it around and thrives in our new offense? Carr keeps rolling, the offense is putting up a lot of yards and points, team is playing well and winning. Then we have to make a decision about the future QB situation of our team. Either we are going to have to trade Vince Young, lose out on the $20+ million bonus and $6 million annual salary we've already paid him to do nothing for us and take an additional cap hit for trading him, or else we're going to have to move Carr and start our offense over again with a new QB. This is a lose-lose situation for both QBs.


Going back to the original premise that Young should not be playing much if at all during his rookie year, for this next year alone, drafting him adds nothing to our team. We have the #1 pick in the draft, and we add nothing that helps our team improve for the upcoming season other than a backup plan at QB. Then since we have Vince, people are going to demand that Carr leads the team to an 8-8 record (or some other arbitrary lofty goal) and puts up X stats or else they are going to complain and boo and demand that Vince get put in. So rather than helping Carr improve and better his chances of providing a winning product with the top pick in the draft, we add nothing that helps him along this path, and if anything the fans scrutinize him more severly for any mistakes that he makes along the way and it diminishes from their support of him. Many of these people would probably still complain at Carr if he put up numbers like Matt Hasselbeck did this year (3459 yards, 24 TDs, 9 INTs) in a Pro-Bowl year, because they demand so much more out of him in order to keep him in front of Vince.

I think this creates a situation that will leave many fans unsatisfied no matter how well Carr and the Texans do until Vince gets on the field, and if Vince does see playing time then they'll be happy with less-than-mediocre play because it's their hometown hero Vince out there. They will demand so much more out of Carr to be happy with the team than what they'd demand out of Vince and likely create unrealistic goals for the team in order to not be disgruntled with it. In my opinion, this is setting Carr up for a failure, whether it truly be a failure on the field or just in the minds of some fans that want to see Vince no matter how much Carr produces. I don't see drafting Vince as being a good situation for the team, it doesn't help the team get better around Carr, it creates a rift between many "fans" and the team, and it sets Carr up for failure (moreso in the minds of the fans rather than on the field, but lack of support and criticism will eventually impact his play on the field) and in turn sets Vince up for the same failure (more of actual failure to produce on the field as he's put into games too early in his career), and it absorbs a lot of money that could be used to improve some other area of the team while not adding anything to the existing offense (or defense) to make those better.

But ... but ... but ... VINCE NEVER LOSES. AT ANYTHING. :rolleyes:

Great post Mork, if the reader takes the time to consider everything and not blindly scream for their favorite player, in light of the obvious big picture and other scenarios and situations at work here.

jerek
02-13-2006, 03:04 PM
You make a good point - there are probably several pockets or subgroups of "fans" that have different patience levels. But is that fact relevant to Kubiak's decisionmaking process? I think Kubiak gets that some "more educated" fans understand that the transition to the 4-3 and new offensive scheme will hinder progress and should temper expectations. But that's the brain talking. Fan patience is also emotional and like it or not, if Kubes keeps Carr, patience will run thin if we don't start next season well. And he knows that.

By the way, as between you and I - I don't know what you favor but I am a proponent of drafting VY. It's quite odd. I have followed pro football for 25 years. I am categorically against "run first" quarterbacks. Philosophically, I think you should have a pocket passer with some mobility in today's game. Not the other way around.

But Vince Young makes me want to chuck my belief system in football. I don't know how else to explain it. As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination. He is truly off the charts. I think VY will be no worse than steve mcnair. I think he will probably be a donovan McNabb once he learns that his legs will make plays, but his mind and arm will win games. I think there's a good chance that he could become the best QB in the league. For those that like math, I'd say there's 15% chance that VY will be a bust (for a #1 pick, that means no better than Mike Vick); 40% chance he'll be like Steve McNair; 30% chance he'll be like Donovan McNabb (league mvp); 15% chance he'll be the best QB in the league. I can mess with the numbers a bit, but that's close to my thinking.

I was with you up until the chucking of your belief system. I would say Vince is not particularly likely to be a bust (maybe in that 15-20% range), but as far as "league MVP" caliber, I am not so sure. As well, people forget that McNabb was "league MVP" caliber when he was surrounded by a "league MVP" caliber team. The Eagles were ravaged by injuries and T.O.'s disappearing act this year, and they looked awful, even before McNabb took the rest of the year off. Prior to this season, they had a stout team on both sides of the ball, and as has been pointed out, McNabb took six seasons to become much more than a novelty "dual-threat." Chicken or egg, I know, but as much as McNabb is a good QB, he looked ridiculous playing this year with the guys he had around him. Add to that Reid and his staff on their worst day one-upping Capers and Co. on their best ... are you starting to see the rest of the magic picture here?

If you think Vince will be McNabb-esque, I might be inclined to agree with you. Trouble is, the Texans don't have the Eagles' squad of McNabb's glory years to this point. We could take a big step towards building that with this year's draft/FA, and rather than starting over with a rookie QB, I propose we keep DC - a league average QB on the worst team in football, who can only get better - and look elsewhere.

texarg
02-13-2006, 03:07 PM
But ... but ... but ... VINCE NEVER LOSES. AT ANYTHING. :rolleyes:

Great post Mork, if the reader takes the time to consider everything and not blindly scream for their favorite player, in light of the obvious big picture and other scenarios and situations at work here.

yes great post! but to add another thing to this please check this stats from 2 Qbs in their last college year:

COMP Att. TD Int Yds. Pct. LG RAT
CARR(2001) 344 533 46 9 4,839 64.5 79 166.70
YOUNG(2005) 212 325 26 10 3,036 65.2 75 163.95

VY only adv DC in the "where are you from?" column.
of course this dont incluide the running game, remember that is not a rb comp., leadership cap, etc. etc., just passing ability.

travfrancis
02-13-2006, 03:17 PM
I believe he will be a good, possibly great, pro quarterback. However, I still believe that Carr can and will get it done in Houston, with Kubiak, and being that we have Carr who is at worst serviceable and at best good

i guess you'd take a avg-good qb/great rb over a great qb/good rb :challenge

I have seen Super Bowls won on the shoulders of average quarterbacks who played for outstanding coaching staffs who built an all-round, good team. I know that DC can be average, and I do firmly believe that he has the potential to be much better.

yeah, all those average qbs who have won super bowls have one thing in common - a great defense. we have ZERO reason to believe that our defense will be GREAT anytime soon.

Toxicology
02-13-2006, 03:18 PM
The problem is we aren't choosing between drafting Vince Young or David Carr.

We are choosing between Vince Young, Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, and others. You could easily make the case that Bush and Leinart have as much poise, leadership, toughness and determination as Vince Young plus you could make the case that both of them are more NFL ready and less of a risky pick.

I agree you could make the case and be pursuasive. Personally, I have never liked the idea of selecting Bush. As for Leinart, I think there is a case for him to be the No 1 selection. I like Young a bit more than Leinart b/c higher upside and more intangibles (IMO). I think Leinart is less risk, less upside.

Toxicology
02-13-2006, 03:20 PM
Let's try this and see if it makes sense. . . . .

Agreed. That's why I'd not have Carr and Young on the same team.

Toxicology
02-13-2006, 03:24 PM
McNabb took six seasons to become much more than a novelty "dual-threat." . . . Chicken or egg, I know, but as much as McNabb is a good QB, he looked ridiculous playing this year with the guys he had around him. . . .

If you think Vince will be McNabb-esque, I might be inclined to agree with you. Trouble is, the Texans don't have the Eagles' squad of McNabb's glory years to this point. .

I think McNabb took the Eagles to 3 straight NFC championship games, 2002, 2003 and 2004. I think he was a 3rd year Qb in 2002, mebbe 4th year. I agree, McNabb had a great team around him. But it's easier to put those pieces together than to get a McNabb. IMO and I believe the O's of most GM's.

HoustonFrog
02-13-2006, 04:27 PM
yes great post! but to add another thing to this please check this stats from 2 Qbs in their last college year:

COMP Att. TD Int Yds. Pct. LG RAT
CARR(2001) 344 533 46 9 4,839 64.5 79 166.70
YOUNG(2005) 212 325 26 10 3,036 65.2 75 163.95

VY only adv DC in the "where are you from?" column.
of course this dont incluide the running game, remember that is not a rb comp., leadership cap, etc. etc., just passing ability.

Against the WAC conference and they sure didn't win the National Title. Not a VY drafter just saying, there is a huge difference.

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 05:09 PM
yeah and did you see timmy chang's numbers in that conference... talk about outstanding....:ok:

I think we are getting some progress on this post and I dont see as much mud slinging... I agree with that guy that I know VY wont play much his first year and dont expect him too... He has to learn the system like he did at UT his freshman year.. As for DC he is in a no win situation and people will have little patience with him...

Is there anything wrong with competition? I mean DC was handed the job without having to compete.. Dont you think it might make him try a little harder that what he has done the last few years. Correct me if I am wrong but didtn they say he goes home early and doenst take extra time after practice...Heck the competition worked for Troy Aikman and Drew Brees...

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 06:07 PM
hey hulk,

didnt mean to step on your toes... I did say correct me if I am wrong... But I dont think McClain just said this ... it has come from other sources as well. Again I dont hate the guy just thinks he needs a change of scenery..

Heck you seem to be his biggest supporter and I see you are from the WC petition for him and maybe he can come back home..

And I have noticed you seem to be the guy that bashes other people because they dont agree with you... "Let me go power lift"... how old are we again?...

You peope in houston if you can keep me updated on any changes or rumors you hear on the radio.. dont get it here in dal

infantrycak
02-13-2006, 06:11 PM
Against the WAC conference and they sure didn't win the National Title. Not a VY drafter just saying, there is a huge difference.

Well there is a difference--then again the statistical difference is very much in DC's favor and how many 1st day draft picks was Carr playing with?--the only 1 I can think of is Bernard Berrian a mid-3rd (he played one year with Mankins in Mankins 1st year so you could say 2). VY was part of a team that won the NC--a team with 3-6 other potential 1st day picks on O. Not taking anything at all away from VY--really just from this argument about the WAC. Yes Carr faced an inferior WAC, but he did so with an inferior WAC team. McNair came from Alcorn--you can't just discount everything based on the conference.

stevo3883
02-13-2006, 06:17 PM
Well there is a difference--then again the statistical difference is very much in DC's favor and how many 1st day draft picks was Carr playing with?--the only 1 I can think of is Bernard Berrian a mid-3rd (he played one year with Mankins in Mankins 1st year so you could say 2). VY was part of a team that won the NC--a team with 3-6 other potential 1st day picks on O. Not taking anything at all away from VY--really just from this argument about the WAC. Yes Carr faced an inferior WAC, but he did so with an inferior WAC team. McNair came from Alcorn--you can't just discount everything based on the conference.

very much in DC's favor?

VY had 4000 total yards with 38 td's
dc had 4800 yards with 48 td's
not quite as big a gap when you factor in vince's 1000 rushing yards

Vince only played more than one series in the second half 3 times, his stats couldve easily been much higher. sorry, but Carr was 5th in heisman voting for a reason (lack of competition)

infantrycak
02-13-2006, 06:18 PM
Is there anything wrong with competition? I mean DC was handed the job without having to compete.. Dont you think it might make him try a little harder that what he has done the last few years.

This gets repeated a lot because they never benched Carr, but IMO that isn't really true. Banks has been here the entire time as a veteran QB. At least according to some reports it was the Texans' intention to start the vet not Carr, but they decided Carr gave them a better chance to win from game #1. I didn't see any of the practices before 2002 but have regularly attended the training camps since that time and Carr has been decidedly better than Banks & Ragone in that time. Probably the Texans should have brought someone better in to compete with Carr, but from what I saw Carr won the competition against everyone on the roster.

Correct me if I am wrong but didtn they say he goes home early and doenst take extra time after practice...

I love propagation of rumor on the internet. McClain and Justice have talked about Carr not staying late on a regular basis. That has in internet fashion turned into saying Carr goes home early. Both have acknowledged Carr takes film home to study, but of course, noone but Carr knows how much time he spends on that. Funny, Ray Lewis and Ed Reed are known as some of the best prepared, most extra working players out there--and it is a reputation built on watching game film at Lewis' house.

infantrycak
02-13-2006, 06:24 PM
very much in DC's favor?

VY had 4000 total yards with 38 td's
dc had 4800 yards with 48 td's
not quite as big a gap when you factor in vince's 1000 rushing yards

Vince only played more than one series in the second half 3 times, his stats couldve easily been much higher. sorry, but Carr was 5th in heisman voting for a reason (lack of competition)

Nice apples and oranges--you include VY's rushing yds and TD's, but not DC's and you don't include VY's fumbles. The point of my statement was as a QB/passer if I wasn't clear--there the advantage is clear.

Farough
02-13-2006, 06:36 PM
Nice apples and oranges--you include VY's rushing yds and TD's, but not DC's and you don't include VY's fumbles. The point of my statement was as a QB/passer if I wasn't clear--there the advantage is clear.

Also Vince Young threw 208 less passes and threw 1 more INT then Carr has. Do we need more turnovers this year?

Wolf
02-13-2006, 06:40 PM
what did Vince do with Roy Williams at WR and Cedrick Benson in the backfield??

was a national championship won?

let me look up who was on defense too..(top of my head Nathen Vasher was drafted later in the draft and .....)

not bashing VY but he did a lot more with less talent on the Offense.. they just changed the scheme around "HIM"

stevo3883
02-13-2006, 06:45 PM
Nice apples and oranges--you include VY's rushing yds and TD's, but not DC's and you don't include VY's fumbles. The point of my statement was as a QB/passer if I wasn't clear--there the advantage is clear.


apples and oranges? I was just responding to another one of your anti-Vy posts. I dont have any agenda here, I dont care who they draft, its just that people liek you who do nothing but degrade VY and what hes done are so old. im sorry, David Carr's college career doesnt compare to Vince's. I cant believe I have to even say that, it should be common sense. Vince is the best longhorn ever, come on.

Do you consider the Ttech qb's some of the best ever? they piled stats just like carr, and they didnt have many good offensive players with them.

btw Carr had 67 yards on 94 carries (0.7 avg)

stevo3883
02-13-2006, 06:47 PM
what did Vince do with Roy Williams at WR and Cedrick Benson in the backfield??

was a national championship won?




he was a freshman who took over after like 5 games.

Wolf
02-13-2006, 06:49 PM
he was a freshman who took over after like 5 games.
that is right.. they split with ....chance mock (if memory serves)

stevo3883
02-13-2006, 06:54 PM
that is right.. they split with ....chance mock (if memory serves)


correct, mock started the OU game played badly and Vince came in and ran for like 120 yards (with one run where he broke i think 14 tackles and went around 60 yards, one of the best runs ive ever seen. and yes it was something around 14 the DC was quoted as saying a few guys missed him twice)

bigTEXan8
02-13-2006, 07:27 PM
I don't really care if if VY started every game and won every game he played in college. That doesn't prove he can play in the NFL. It's another beast, another game.

stevo3883
02-13-2006, 07:31 PM
I don't really care if if VY started every game and won every game he played in college. That doesn't prove he can play in the NFL. It's another beast, another game.

im pretty sure its still football. And playing very well in college, is usually a pretty good indicator of being good in the NFL. its not foolproof, and you can usually tell who wont do anything, but its not as vast a difference as you make it out to be.

bigTEXan8
02-13-2006, 07:37 PM
im pretty sure its still football. And playing very well in college, is usually a pretty good indicator of being good in the NFL. its not foolproof, and you can usually tell who wont do anything, but its not as vast a difference as you make it out to be.

There has been a bunch of great, solid, college players that have never made it into the NFL, so just because VY played well doesn't mean he's gonna be God's gift to football the way people have made him.

infantrycak
02-13-2006, 07:42 PM
apples and oranges? I was just responding to another one of your anti-Vy posts. I dont have any agenda here, I dont care who they draft, its just that people liek you who do nothing but degrade VY and what hes done are so old.

No what is old is folks who think anyone who doesn't believe Vince Young is actually part of the holy trinity are anti-VY. He has every potential to be a fantastic NFL QB and I will not be upset if he is taken by the Texans but recognizing twice as many TD's with less INT's and over 60% more passing yds as better stats is not degrading VY.

And yes, even a pre-schooler would recognize mixing in passing and rushing yds and scores for one QB and not for the other and not including fumbles if you are going to include rushing TD's is both giving an incomplete picture and is comparing apples and oranges.

stevo3883
02-13-2006, 07:43 PM
There has been a bunch of great, solid, college players that have never made it into the NFL, so just because VY played well doesn't mean he's gonna be God's gift to football the way people have made him.


yes, everyone is calling him "gods gift to football" :rolleyes:

there have been like 5 posters who have gone overboard on the comparisons, but in general people just think he will be a very very good qb.

for every "VY is amazing" post, there are 10 posts from people like you saying he sucks or will be a bust. and honestly the first seems more likely than him being some horrible bust.

please stop the hyperboles.

stevo3883
02-13-2006, 07:48 PM
No what is old is folks who think anyone who doesn't believe Vince Young is actually part of the holy trinity are anti-VY.

this is exactly what im talking about, stop the freaking hyperboles!

Me and everyone else who supports him think he will be a fantastic qb in the NFL who will do great things.

you and jerek are the worst with that stupid "VY can do no wrong with you blah blah blah" crap. its childish and a lame attempt to degrade our opinion.

Texans2005
02-13-2006, 07:49 PM
http://badblocks.biz/~jcdenton/VinceYoung(Twisted3434).wmv

TEXANS FANS: Copy and Paste the link above into your address bar to see Vince Young in Action. Turn up the volume on your computer. Let me know what you think. GO TEXANS! :redtowel:

bckey
02-13-2006, 07:55 PM
This gets repeated a lot because they never benched Carr, but IMO that isn't really true. Banks has been here the entire time as a veteran QB. At least according to some reports it was the Texans' intention to start the vet not Carr, but they decided Carr gave them a better chance to win from game #1. I didn't see any of the practices before 2002 but have regularly attended the training camps since that time and Carr has been decidedly better than Banks & Ragone in that time. Probably the Texans should have brought someone better in to compete with Carr, but from what I saw Carr won the competition against everyone on the roster.

Banks is sorry and was never competition for Carr. We all know the story how he couldn't even make the Cowboys roster. Please, Banks isn't and never has been competition. Tim Couch could beat out Banks. I don't think anyone would even want Banks if we cut him. Carr has been GIVEN the starting job from day 1.

stevo3883
02-13-2006, 08:00 PM
And yes, even a pre-schooler would recognize mixing in passing and rushing yds and scores for one QB and not for the other and not including fumbles if you are going to include rushing TD's is both giving an incomplete picture and is comparing apples and oranges.


why would i mention david carr's 67 rushing yards on 94 carries? its not llike i was trying to make DC look bad, he just didnt have any yards to add.

btw- Vince had 155 carries for 1050 yards and 12 td's and he lost 2 fumbles all year. 1 against A&M and 1 against Okst.

Im sure Carr had some fumbles as well but i dont know where to find his complete college stats.

its an oranges to oranges comparison. VY- 4050 yards(3000 passing 163 QB rating 1050 rushing @6.8ypc) 28 td's 12 int's, 12 rushing tds 2 fumbles while only playing over 35 minutes of a game 3 times.

David Carr 4860 yards(4800 passing 166 qb rating 60 rushing @0.7ypc) 46 td's 10 ints 5 rushing td's unknown fumbles

factor in the level of competition, and playing time, and it is in no way as slanted as you make it out to be.

but even a preschooler can see that

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 08:00 PM
Must say quite amazing... And I am sure you are going to get alot of messages that say it was college....wont do it in the NFL.. but alot of this is true... but just imagine if some of that will happen in the NFL.. It was also nice to see someone 6'5 throwing downfield and I mean down instead of side ways or into linemans heads..

I will say this I hope someone comes up with a RB highlight video and a DC video so we can see all of them in action... And I dont mean that sarcastically I am being serious..

Again Nice Video..:redtowel:

Nighthawk
02-13-2006, 08:05 PM
Don't get me wrong. Texans blue all the way. But if I have to watch Vince hack his way through his first two seasons ... I have sat through bad coaching for four years, I don't want to sit through a rookie QB for another 2-3.

Yeah, it was awful when Earl campbell came into the league, too. That first year was all about watching him hack his way through the season.

Dear True Texan Fan:

Have a little bit of imagination, please. If Vince is a special player it will show up somewhere about midyear in his 1st year in the league. If he's an ordinary QB (albeit substantially better than Carr) it'll show up at the start of the 2nd year. If he's a real bust (worse than Carr?) that'll be clear in the second year, too.

But he won't be showing all this for the Texans. He might well be doing it in Tennessee.

Clearly Carr will improve next year. With as much padding and special attention as he'll get in the offseason you or I could play the position. The question is how good can he get? If they de-emphasize the QB role in the Denver mode, and they stop Carr from throwing INTs, he could be as good as Plummmmer. He's got a stronger arm, I think, but much less field awareness and he far less instinctual in his play (could be a good thing in this type of offense).

Of course, if they de-emphasize the QB role, they don't even need Carr to run the offense. Which is another topic altogether.

Basically, you're going to watch Carr hack his way through next season, getting better as he does less and less, as the offense is built around the run and the dink/dunk, with occasional airouts. We win maybe 5 games next year. Maybe even 6.

In the Vince Young scenario you don't build a Denver offense because you ascertain early on that you're better off building around Vince. So you build the Colts offense (ostensibly what the UT offense was patterned after).

The tripwire is this: Kubiak. His entire experience is the Denver show. So that's what he'll do. It's already decided. We're a conservative team with a conservative owner and conservative old coaches who have been replaced with conservative new coaches. They're shooting for respectability. The Titans, on the other hand, are already respectable as a franchise, and might be willing to take the risk of building around Vince Young.

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 08:12 PM
Nighthawk..

Who would rather see behind the LOS?

If you gave VY the time to learn how many wins do you think he will have in his second year?

Would you have more patience with VY instead of DC?

Who are we kidding....we are in a rebuilding year...:crying:

New coach new system... so why not new QB

Heck they would be learning at the same time..(DC and VY)

Maddict5
02-13-2006, 08:16 PM
You were impressed with Carr coming out of college... are you serious? Did you see any of his games? And to answer your question yes I am a coach and no not a pee wee coach. I actually teach as well as coach so I spend alot more time working then typing on this board like some of you that continue to bash VY and want DC. You VY haters have a lot of hatered toward him which I cant figure out. I dont have any hate toward DC just stating he needs a new start because he will be watched even more closely now... He will get booed second guessed, its endless... I even said it wasnt fair for him..

And if you know a coach you should know that there is alot of time put into a weeks game .. but of course you know that because you are probably a pee wee coach's wife...

Whats sad is this board turns into a punching bag among the posters because everyone has different views on the issue. Most of the people from the WC love DC and they have a right too, same as the people who reside in Houston want VY.. only makes sense. Heck DC even stated he understands why people want VY.. You posters shouldnt be upset or bash on people of houston because they want there hometown guy.. You should be happy for them that they want someone from there city and not trying to move them out.. Its rare for this city to have someone like this take the national spotlight.

It took the astros almost twenty years to get there hometown guy while he posted Cy Young numbers everywhere else. People should quit taking stabs at each other and try to understand if you had a guy from your hometown wanting to come home you would be excited too. All the people are doing is trying to get their voices heard to the people who make the decisions. Because the last four years they havent and you seen where it has got us.:brickwall

im not a VY hater- i just dont like the way alot of people from houston are overhyping him- he does have flaws(like every rookie) but they just dont seem to understand that. im in favour of taking d'brick @#4 if possible but wouldnt mind bush or young but taking young now isnt realistic...as a (supposed) football coach i thought you'd be in favour of d'brick aswell as its the smart football move to make- yeah its not the sexy qb,rb pick but it will help us out more-both in the short and long term and gives us the best chance to win. i think carr can turn it around if he gets a decent line. #
heres a q. coach-if we draft VY how will it help when he'll only get 1-2 secs to throw it cos if you havent realised-tom brady he ain't

Koolbrz
02-13-2006, 08:17 PM
yes, everyone is calling him "gods gift to football" :rolleyes:

there have been like 5 posters who have gone overboard on the comparisons, but in general people just think he will be a very very good qb.

for every "VY is amazing" post, there are 10 posts from people like you saying he sucks or will be a bust. and honestly the first seems more likely than him being some horrible bust.

please stop the hyperboles.



I'm not saying the guy sux, He is a great athlete. Only problem i have with the Texans drafting him is that he more than likely will be another M. Vick type QB. Someone that will run for 100 yds and throw for 100 yds. That is not the kind fo Qb that will get you to the SB or the kind of QB that we need. If they want a QB i would rather them take Leinart or Cutler. Just feel that VY will be a really good NFL QB, not a great one. How many running QB's have been too and won the SB. By running i mean someone like Vick, Young, Cunningham, Stewart, Brooks. Not one. Try and look at this with an open mind. I'm not dogging the guy okay, just my opinion on the sub.

Texans_Chick
02-13-2006, 08:23 PM
But Vince Young makes me want to chuck my belief system in football. I don't know how else to explain it. As I get older, I place more importance in leadership, toughness and determination. He is truly off the charts. I think VY will be no worse than steve mcnair. I think he will probably be a donovan McNabb once he learns that his legs will make plays, but his mind and arm will win games. I think there's a good chance that he could become the best QB in the league. For those that like math, I'd say there's 15% chance that VY will be a bust (for a #1 pick, that means no better than Mike Vick); 40% chance he'll be like Steve McNair; 30% chance he'll be like Donovan McNabb (league mvp); 15% chance he'll be the best QB in the league. I can mess with the numbers a bit, but that's close to my thinking.

Interesting post.

I think I know what you mean. I was thinking about that stuff the other day, and tried to figure out why I felt that way. And I started to think about highlight films. And I guess the thing that blows me away about VY is that generally speaking, running back highlight films are much more interesting than QB highlight films. But not with VY. And VY has just done some stuff on the football field that I have never seen a QB of that size do. Not even close. Not just the amazing runs, but a lot of it is his football sense, and how he is hard to tackle. It is beyond what would be believable in a movie--it is more like freaky video game stuff. And it isn't just highlight films--you wanted to watch every snap because you had no idea what cool stuff you could see.

He is just does everything so smooth and easy. It is like he doesn't use any effort at all--when people are trying to tackle him while he is throwing, or just watching him run--it is crazy. It makes me think my eyes are playing tricks on me.

I know these sorts of comments make the non-VY fans upset, but when my eyes say what they are telling me and the stats say what they say-it does make you want to believe he is going to do some spectacular things. You know, it makes your spider sense go off.

I know that the Texans situation makes it unlikely that he will be drafted. But there is still that part of me that wants some sort of draft day miracle of cap fluffery and trades and sneaky GM tricks and whatnot that will make it make sense.

And when we don't draft him, I will remain a crazed Texans fan and will be the biggest fans of who we pick and who we keep, because they will have to be the bombdiggity. They will just have to. I will feel bad for how good they will have to play to please the fans. VY whereever he goes, will be the cache of potential until he gets his playing time, and for whatever that time of unknown is, the players we take instead will just have to be spectacular.

There would be nothing that would make me happier than seeing Carr finally succeed as a Texan. It would be a great story. (Good guy goes through adversity and helps an expansion team flourish). But it would be terribly ugly if we ended up getting him more tools, and still saw a lot of the same poor play.

As someone who is known as a bigtime Texans fan, I get a lot casual fans wanting to talk to me about the team. Nobody likes Carr as a QB. It's sad how badly folks have written him off. Or as they say on sportstalk, Carr has replaced Bagwell as the #1 Houston talk radio whipping boy. And the hard part is that nobody can say for sure if Carr is gonna be good or gonna be non-good or somewhere in between. After 4 years.

But at the end of the day, I try to keep my optimism hat on, try not to think of more ugliness and just hope for whatever to happen that is best for the team.

:texflag:

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 08:24 PM
Mad,
I will have to break it down in a later post maybe tomorrow but as a defense minded coach he versatility scares me more than anything... He does have less time to make something happen but the time got smaller from HS to college and he was able to adapt. USC made the wrong decision in blitzing him on the goal line.. well I take that back they would have had him but the SS made the wrong fit when he was coming up the gap.. He made it easy for the OL to push him out the way when VY scored on the last touchdown. If you replay that down and watch it, watch the SS coming up the C gap instead of the D gap like he is supposed to. If he does he makes the tackle on VY.. Again that goes back to saying I know and everyone else knows he is not SUPERMAN.. but he makes plays and makes people around him better..

Just give him a chance like we gave DC in the last four years.. maybe that will explain why people are hollering for the Texans to draft him... DC has just worn out his welcome like TEXAN CHICK said earlier.. he is in a no win situation... no offense..

stevo3883
02-13-2006, 08:25 PM
I'm not saying the guy sux, He is a great athlete. Only problem i have with the Texans drafting him is that he more than likely will be another M. Vick type QB. Someone that will run for 100 yds and throw for 100 yds. That is not the kind fo Qb that will get you to the SB or the kind of QB that we need. If they want a QB i would rather them take Leinart or Cutler. Just feel that VY will be a really good NFL QB, not a great one. How many running QB's have been too and won the SB. By running i mean someone like Vick, Young, Cunningham, Stewart, Brooks. Not one. Try and look at this with an open mind. I'm not dogging the guy okay, just my opinion on the sub.


an open mind... you say to use an open mind then go on to say vince wont do good because no other running qbs have won a super bowl........

forget the fact that none of those quarterbacks were comparable as passers OR runners coming out of college.

heck, vick only had 550 yards rushing and like 1800 passing at vtech.

Maddict5
02-13-2006, 08:26 PM
Clearly Carr will improve next year. With as much padding and special attention as he'll get in the offseason you or I could play the position. The question is how good can he get? If they de-emphasize the QB role in the Denver mode, and they stop Carr from throwing INTs, he could be as good as Plummmmer. He's got a stronger arm, I think, but much less field awareness and he far less instinctual in his play (could be a good thing in this type of offense).

Of course, if they de-emphasize the QB role, they don't even need Carr to run the offense. Which is another topic altogether.

Basically, you're going to watch Carr hack his way through next season, getting better as he does less and less, as the offense is built around the run and the dink/dunk, with occasional airouts. We win maybe 5 games next year. Maybe even 6.

In the Vince Young scenario you don't build a Denver offense because you ascertain early on that you're better off building around Vince. So you build the Colts offense (ostensibly what the UT offense was patterned after).

The tripwire is this: Kubiak. His entire experience is the Denver show. So that's what he'll do. It's already decided. We're a conservative team with a conservative owner and conservative old coaches who have been replaced with conservative new coaches. They're shooting for respectability. The Titans, on the other hand, are already respectable as a franchise, and might be willing to take the risk of building around Vince Young.

see coach- this is the crap im talking about-this is a hater. he also thinks carr will improve but his VY goggles are already making him put carr down so he can still think he was right about young. if respectability is 2 SB then i think most of us would take that-great point:rolleyes:

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 08:31 PM
I can understand where you are coming from Mad and maybe you can see where the VY people are coming from when they bash VY...

But let me ask you and the DC followers: what makes you think DC can lead us the promise land... and please dont give me the GM and HC think he can... I want an honest answer like the VY followers give... I will keep an open mind and I am sure the VY followers will too.. Heck we have had an open mind for DC the last fours years so why not continue...:redtowel:

Maddict5
02-13-2006, 08:33 PM
Mad,
I will have to break it down in a later post maybe tomorrow but as a defense minded coach he versatility scares me more than anything... He does have less time to make something happen but the time got smaller from HS to college and he was able to adapt. USC made the wrong decision in blitzing him on the goal line.. well I take that back they would have had him but the SS made the wrong fit when he was coming up the gap.. He made it easy for the OL to push him out the way when VY scored on the last touchdown. If you replay that down and watch it, watch the SS coming up the C gap instead of the D gap like he is supposed to. If he does he makes the tackle on VY.. Again that goes back to saying I know and everyone else knows he is not SUPERMAN.. but he makes plays and makes people around him better..
Just give him a chance like we gave DC in the last four years.. maybe that will explain why people are hollering for the Texans to draft him... DC has just worn out his welcome like TEXAN CHICK said earlier.. he is in a no win situation... no offense..

1-DC or VY have absolutely no chance if we dont put anything else around them- why dont we give DC a real chance with a half-decent ol and >1 target
2-do you think something like that would happen in the nfl(like v usc). i think any1 can see a good few teams have learned how to contain Vick this season so its not like no1 will know how to try and stop VY.

Koolbrz
02-13-2006, 08:37 PM
an open mind... you say to use an open mind then go on to say vince wont do good because no other running qbs have won a super bowl........

forget the fact that none of those quarterbacks were comparable as passers OR runners coming out of college.

heck, vick only had 550 yards rushing and like 1800 passing at vtech.


I looked at Vy with an open mind and i will tell you what i saw. Alot of poor tackling in the ncaa. Something that will not happen in the NFL. His knees are inviting targets, He has a decent arm, and will be looking to run. Ala Micheal Vick. Just my opinion

infantrycak
02-13-2006, 08:38 PM
this is exactly what im talking about, stop the freaking hyperboles!

Me and everyone else who supports him think he will be a fantastic qb in the NFL who will do great things.

you and jerek are the worst with that stupid "VY can do no wrong with you blah blah blah" crap. its childish and a lame attempt to degrade our opinion.

Geez this is friggin ridiculous that having 60% more yards, almost twice the TD's and less INT's can't be described as better statistically. Nothing in my post said VY sucked, wouldn't be good, wouldn't be better than Carr, etc. Get over yourself and this revisionist crud. Step 1--I made a comment to another MB poster about level of competition faced by DC and VY and that it wasn't entirely correct to completely discount the WAC and DC's performance there. Nothing in the post was in any way degrading to VY or anti-VY. Step 2--You jumped in with an apples and oranges correction to which my only response was your comparison was apples and oranges and made clear my original post was specific to passing if it hadn't been clear already. Step 3--you started slinging around accusations of anti-VY and degrading VY (by the way, try quoting something in this thread or from another which is actively anti-VY by me). Being as sensitive as you have in this transaction about VY is exactly why people mock some of the VY advocacy on here.

Maddict5
02-13-2006, 08:42 PM
I can understand where you are coming from Mad and maybe you can see where the VY people are coming from when they bash VY...

But let me ask you and the DC followers: what makes you think DC can lead us the promise land... and please dont give me the GM and HC think he can... I want an honest answer like the VY followers give... I will keep an open mind and I am sure the VY followers will too.. Heck we have had an open mind for DC the last fours years so why not continue...:redtowel:

i dont know how you got it into your head that im a DC followers- all im saying is if we give him a decent chance-o-line and a few targets then we'll know 1 way or the other. also why isnt the fact that reeves and kubiak,-1 a HoF coach and the other a guy who's won 2 SB's and is a qb coach, both think that he can. they know alot more about DC than you and me. why isnt that as good a reason as any in your opinion. plus i still havent read any reason from VY fans which makes me think we would be better with him

Texans_Chick
02-13-2006, 08:46 PM
heck, vick only had 550 yards rushing and like 1800 passing at vtech.


And was drafted first.

And isn't VY's size.

Just sayin.

Koolbrz
02-13-2006, 08:54 PM
And was drafted first.

And isn't VY's size.

Just sayin.



You forgot to mention defenses have his number and will have VY's... all 6'5''. This is the NFL baby, not a bunch of 18-20 yr olds running around trying to tackle. I will say though, there are a few that can really hit. :cool:

stevo3883
02-13-2006, 08:55 PM
You forgot to mention defenses have his number and will have VY's... all 6'5''. This is the NFL baby, not a bunch of 18-20 yr olds running around trying to tackle. I will say though, there are a few that can really hit. :cool:


yeah, he wont be lucky enough to play defenses with bobby carpernter and AJ hawk every week in the nfl!

oh wait, those two guys are probably better than any linebacker on OUR defense..

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 08:55 PM
Mad,
I agree with both of your posts and you are right in the fact NFL will learn how to contain him but it makes you think twice as hard to gameplan for him... He is a dual threat not as bad as he was in college or HS but its still there no matter how you slice or dice it...

As for the reason why DC should be the leader... sorry if i mistakened you for a DC follower.. i just want to hear from the people why he should be the leader well should i say continue to be our leader.... he hasnt done a great job so far and i know he has many of reasons why he faulted but a glisp of hope would be nice...As for the coaches and GM saying all those things kind of makes me wonder...kind of like selling a used car... you know the A/C works, the Heat works, the engine only has 30,000 miles.. just something weird about all that ... and no guys not tryin to hype up VY... just funny to me thats all..

dat_boy_yec
02-13-2006, 08:59 PM
Mad,
I will have to break it down in a later post maybe tomorrow but as a defense minded coach he versatility scares me more than anything... He does have less time to make something happen but the time got smaller from HS to college and he was able to adapt. USC made the wrong decision in blitzing him on the goal line.. well I take that back they would have had him but the SS made the wrong fit when he was coming up the gap.. He made it easy for the OL to push him out the way when VY scored on the last touchdown. If you replay that down and watch it, watch the SS coming up the C gap instead of the D gap like he is supposed to. If he does he makes the tackle on VY.. Again that goes back to saying I know and everyone else knows he is not SUPERMAN.. but he makes plays and makes people around him better..

Just give him a chance like we gave DC in the last four years.. maybe that will explain why people are hollering for the Texans to draft him... DC has just worn out his welcome like TEXAN CHICK said earlier.. he is in a no win situation... no offense..

You talk about Young's versatility, but what about Bush. He is a versitile player as well and moreso than Young in some aspects. Young for all he can do always has to do so from under center or in the shotgun position. I am not going to knock Young, but it is not that difficult to gameplan against any player if you identify his tendencies and take them away. As good as Vick is the Panthers were able to hold him to 0 rushing yds. and next yr. they will keep negating him because they have learned his tendencies. To me the way I see it is Young is slower than Vick and he's a bigger target. So he won't be able to be as elusive as Vick and like Vick he will be forced to improve his passing. Again I'm not knocking him this is just the way I see it.

Now what do you think about Bush? To me he is the harder one to gameplan for. He has the reputation for being a burner and cutting to the edges, so say you plan to contain him by cutting off the outside game. Well when Texas tried this strategy White hurt them up the middle, do you commit to guarding the outside and have him run up the gut. Remember he is a threat once he gets to the second level so what do you have your linebackers do. If they commit to the outside they will be blocked and a lane will open up on the inside so Bush wouldn't really have to fight that hard to get to the second level. Considering the speed he has running to the outside him hitting the hole down hill would be a major concern. However what do you do when he slides from the backfield to the slot, what, do you play pass or worry about a reverse. Either one can be dangerous. Then you have to figure out how to play the situation in an instant. The most dangerous part would be if Carr can in fact read the defense because then he could audible into a play in which you can't account for everybody without there being a mismatch. There are so many variables that Bush brings to the table by himself that it will make the Texans a very dangerous team. Add to that that Bush is not the only weapon, how will you game plan for that.

Koolbrz
02-13-2006, 09:05 PM
yeah, he wont be lucky enough to play defenses with bobby carpernter and AJ hawk every week in the nfl!

oh wait, those two guys are probably better than any linebacker on OUR defense..


They are the few that can hit. I did say that, didn't i? A.J. looked kinda lost in a few of his games this last yr. though. Don't know what that was all about. :)

dat_boy_yec
02-13-2006, 09:12 PM
I will say this, which Young supporters will probably agree with. Young has a lot of potential, but the QB I would compare him to is Doug Williams of the Redskins. Some of the runs Williams broke were mind boggling, but he also had a great sense of leadership, and his passing was superb. (Vince has a great work ethic and I think his passing can greatly improve.) However Williams was not a running QB. Like Vince he could run, but he could also hurt you with the pass and the way he mixed them was more dangerous than most other running QB's usually mentioned because he excelled at both. One last comment is that Williams did win a superbowl. What I think is that Young has great running ability, but his passing needs work. If he improved I could see him more in the Williams mold than in any other QB's mold to which he has always been compared to.

texarg
02-13-2006, 09:29 PM
yeah and did you see timmy chang's numbers in that conference... talk about outstanding....:ok:

I think we are getting some progress on this post and I dont see as much mud slinging... I agree with that guy that I know VY wont play much his first year and dont expect him too... He has to learn the system like he did at UT his freshman year.. As for DC he is in a no win situation and people will have little patience with him...

Is there anything wrong with competition? I mean DC was handed the job without having to compete.. Dont you think it might make him try a little harder that what he has done the last few years. Correct me if I am wrong but didtn they say he goes home early and doenst take extra time after practice...Heck the competition worked for Troy Aikman and Drew Brees...


nothing wrong with competition but take a qb with pick 1 just for that???
Brees plays with LD....Aikman with Emmit...Carr with David/Wells???
there are a lot of holes to fill before this Qbs job competition arrive to houston.
if cant trade down for more picks, bush can fill one of the biggers holes.

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 09:29 PM
Heck the competition worked for Troy Aikman and Drew Brees...


You are suggesting Vince Young is no better than Steve Walsh??
He's much better than that.

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 09:55 PM
im pretty sure its still football. And playing very well in college, is usually a pretty good indicator of being good in the NFL. its not foolproof, and you can usually tell who wont do anything, but its not as vast a difference as you make it out to be.


You can look back at every draft and find 2 to 3 of the top 10 picks that were either an outright bust or significantly performed below their "projected" abilities.
1999 - Tim Couch #1, Akili Smith #3, David Boston #8, Chris Claiborne #9
2000 - Courtney Brown #1 overall, Peter Warrick #4 overall, Travis Taylor #10 overall.
2001 - Gerard Warren #3, David Terrell #8, Jamal Reynolds #10
2002 - David Carr #1, Joey Harrington #3, Mike Williams #4, Quentin Jammer #5, Ryan Sims #6, Levi Jones #10
2003 - Charles Rogers #2, Johnathan Sullivan #6

I realize some of these players are solid. Some are still (hopefully) progressing. A player that is drafted in the top 10 should not be a complimentary player. That guy should be a player that makes things happen. In college every player drafted in the 1st couple of rounds was THE man on his team. They were men among boys. In the NFL the game is the same, but the competition is tougher. Instead of having the North Iowa A&Ms to beat up on, they play against top tier players every week. Some players don't have what it takes. Some get paid and lose interest. Some get hurt. It's very rare for a player that didn't perform well in college to come into the pros and become a stud. Gates is one I can think of and he didn't play college football. Who knew? Every draft will have busts. Statistics show that 1 of Bush, Young and Leinart will not be a superstar. I hope all 3 make it. Even if none play for Houston.

As for the specific years chosen, I didn't use the previous 2 years because it's too soon for sure. I could have gone further back than 1999, but I hope I made my point. Yeah, right now I include Carr on the list. He hasn't played up to the #1 overall pick level yet. Overall, that has to be the worst top 10 in a long while. Only Peppers and Roy Williams can be considered superstars. Henderson is great. McKinnie is very good.

expwrlifter
02-13-2006, 09:58 PM
no sorry you took that the wrong way... he is better than walsh but what I am saying is create competition.. Heck that is what are nation is built upon always trying to out do the other person.. As one post stated DC was GIVEN the job from Day 1...

And for the guy that states about DC and Davis/Wells?.. You act like DD is chop liver... the guy has run for two straight 1000 yard seasons... and hasnt played all 16 games.. Give DD a better line and watch the zone scheme make him an even better back and maybe he wont take such a pounding... Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..QB

As for RB and gameplanning him,anyone will tell you that you can not run outside in the NFL...its a north and south game and you have to be a brusier to get through there... Thats why LJ is good from KC because he is a bigger back and uses the zone scheme well.. Thats why I think DD will flourish in the zone scheme with Kubes. As for guarding RB in the slot you can combo coverage him and bang him at the line and have help underneath.. He will catch balls as any receiving back will but dont see him doing it very much .. like I stated in an earlier post he is a Marshall Faulk guy and it helped MF that he had a good passing QB in Kurt Warner and two great WR's in Bruce and Holt. I agree with you in that RB will be a good RB and will take nothing away from him.. but I dont see him running wild in the NFL just like I dont see VY running wild either..

I just think VY fits our scheme better with the bootleg action and the play action that Kubes has in his schemes... You cant honestly say you woudnt be excited to see VY take off on a bootleg and see what happens...:drool:

ANd I know it wont happen like in college or HS but just imagine what could happen...

TexanSam
02-13-2006, 10:27 PM
As for RB and gameplanning him,anyone will tell you that you can not run outside in the NFL...its a north and south game and you have to be a brusier to get through there... Thats why LJ is good from KC because he is a bigger back and uses the zone scheme well.. Thats why I think DD will flourish in the zone scheme with Kubes. As for guarding RB in the slot you can combo coverage him and bang him at the line and have help underneath.. He will catch balls as any receiving back will but dont see him doing it very much .. like I stated in an earlier post he is a Marshall Faulk guy and it helped MF that he had a good passing QB in Kurt Warner and two great WR's in Bruce and Holt. I agree with you in that RB will be a good RB and will take nothing away from him.. but I dont see him running wild in the NFL just like I dont see VY running wild either..



I believe Reggie Bush can and will be a north/south guy in the NFL. And I believe Davis and Bush will be much, much more productive than Davis and Wells. I posted this before in another thread and I'll do it again.

Here's Tatum Bells and Mike Anderson's carries and yards in 2005:

Tatum Bell - 175 carries; 921 yards; 5.3 avg
Mike Anderson - 239 carries; 1014 yards; 4.2 avg

Combined they rushed for 1935 yards on 414 carries for a 4.6 avg. That's basically having a 2 headed monster in your backfield. I can see Davis and Bush doing even better than Bell and Anderson. First, Bush is supremely more talented than Tatum Bell and Davis is younger and more explosive than Anderson (Anderson used to be a fullback). Bush/Davis can probably total over 2100 yards in season in RUSHING yards alone. The difference comes in Bush's catching ability. Bell had 18 catches for 104 yards last year. Bush can definately catch at least between 30-40 catches a season for around 300-400 yards. Combined that would be 2500 total yards. Bush would help us immediately and would have a tremendous impact. Not even Vince Young will be able to have this much of an impact on our offense this early. I vote Bush.

Koolbrz
02-13-2006, 10:30 PM
no sorry you took that the wrong way... he is better than walsh but what I am saying is create competition.. Heck that is what are nation is built upon always trying to out do the other person.. As one post stated DC was GIVEN the job from Day 1...

And for the guy that states about DC and Davis/Wells?.. You act like DD is chop liver... the guy has run for two straight 1000 yard seasons... and hasnt played all 16 games.. Give DD a better line and watch the zone scheme make him an even better back and maybe he wont take such a pounding... Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..QB

As for RB and gameplanning him,anyone will tell you that you can not run outside in the NFL...its a north and south game and you have to be a brusier to get through there... Thats why LJ is good from KC because he is a bigger back and uses the zone scheme well.. Thats why I think DD will flourish in the zone scheme with Kubes. As for guarding RB in the slot you can combo coverage him and bang him at the line and have help underneath.. He will catch balls as any receiving back will but dont see him doing it very much .. like I stated in an earlier post he is a Marshall Faulk guy and it helped MF that he had a good passing QB in Kurt Warner and two great WR's in Bruce and Holt. I agree with you in that RB will be a good RB and will take nothing away from him.. but I dont see him running wild in the NFL just like I dont see VY running wild either..

I just think VY fits our scheme better with the bootleg action and the play action that Kubes has in his schemes... You cant honestly say you woudnt be excited to see VY take off on a bootleg and see what happens...:drool:

ANd I know it wont happen like in college or HS but just imagine what could happen...



First of all, you can't say that RB will not be able to go north and south. We don't know that. I know that size at the rb position is great if you want a bruiser for rb. What houston needs is a GAMEBREAKER!!! Someone that can go the distance. Look at Tiki Barber. He is what 5'9''-5'10'' 200lbs. Warrick Dunn is what 5'7'' 180lbs. They can sure go north and south. Can also break the long runs that we are lacking. They are not getting caught from behind either. DD is a great rb. Runs with some power. I agree. He's just not a gamebreaker. He was caught from behind what 4-5 times this yr. Thats 4-5 possible TD's we did not get. RB is the gamebreaker we need. He will be difficult to defend. I believe he will be more of a nightmare for defensive co-ordinaters than what you think. You just never know what will happen with DD and Bush on the field at the same time. Young is great. I just don't see him being the gamebreaker Bush can be, for the simple reason that defense's have been facing Vick for a few yrs now and have begun to slow him down. They will do the same thing to VY. I don't think that defense's will combo cover RB either because of the speed they have at the wideout pos. Don't forget AJ and Mathis. I do think he, (Mathis), will be in the starting lineup. Dude, this lineup has lots of potential and a ton of speed. There is only so much you can do with a running QB. With Kubiaks knowledge and a back like Reggie the sky is the limit, because you will be able to move him around. He will not be under center or in shotgun form. all the time.Just think of all the possibilities...:whoohoo:

Napa Auto Parts
02-14-2006, 01:15 AM
DC and VY are you guys serious it is clear to everyone that David is better i mean look at his pro career up to date Dan marino like. and when it comes to college david played in a tradition filled program playing team of immense tradition like san jose state the utah aggies.:stirpot:

Big B Texan Fan
02-14-2006, 01:27 AM
You forgot to mention defenses have his number and will have VY's... all 6'5''. This is the NFL baby,
Just like they already have Carrs' #.

Big B Texan Fan
02-14-2006, 01:41 AM
Carr scares no one, with or w/out Bush in the backfield.

Young will scare people, with or w/out __________ (fill in the blank)

You gameplan against Bush just like you'd gameplan against Fred Taylor, same change of direction ability, same hands out of backfield, similar speed, same attempt to avoid contact.

I guess you could gameplan against Young like you would against Vick. Only thing is what if just sits back there and pix you apart with minimal running?

thunderkyss
02-14-2006, 08:33 AM
i dont know how you got it into your head that im a DC followers- all im saying is if we give him a decent chance-o-line and a few targets then we'll know 1 way or the other. also why isnt the fact that reeves and kubiak,-1 a HoF coach and the other a guy who's won 2 SB's and is a qb coach, both think that he can. they know alot more about DC than you and me. why isnt that as good a reason as any in your opinion. plus i still havent read any reason from VY fans which makes me think we would be better with him


What if it's Bob McNair?? What if Caper's folley, was that he had to put together a winning team built around David Carr?? What if Caper's found out the hardway, that it can't be done?? Now we are sending more sheep to the wolves??

McNair(who loves Carr) has not wanted to protect him over the last 4 years?? That doesn't make sense.

Casserly(who loves Carr) & has some history of putting together talented football teams, has not wanted to protect Carr for the Last 4 years??
That doesn't make sense.

Capers....... football coach..... knows that winning puts food on the table, has not wanted to protect Carr over the last four years??
That doesn't make sense.

Palmer..... a quarterbacks best friend..... has not wanted to protect Carr over the last 4 years??
That doesn't make sense.

These 4 guys, along with who knows how many behind the scenes scouts, who judge talent on a daily basis, are the same bunch of guys that gave us Domonick, Dunta, Peek, Babin, Andre, Gafney, Bradford, Armstrong, Mathis, Coleman, Faggins, payne, Walker, Wells, Morency, Billy Miller, Glenn, Sharper, etc... Yet they can't put together a half decent offensive line?? They set a record for sacks their first year?? come close to breaking it their fourth??

Something isn't adding up here.

I've been a good fan for the last 4 years. I've defended Carr, for 4 years. I used the same tired excuse that you guys have for 4 years. He has no time. No one could do better. blah, blah, blah........... bleh, bleh, bleh.... bloo, bloo, bloo....... Now I see someone in the Draft, who is dynamic...... who doesn't give up on a play, who wins, because he wants to.... I see someone, that could possibly be the envy of the league given time. He could possibly be a first ballot Hall of famer...

Could possibly be. If everything happens right... he could be. If everything happens right for Carr, I think he can be Brad Johnson'ish, or Bledsoe'ish... which isn't bad... Bledsoe might get into the HOF.... it would help if he could win a Lombardy.... BJ...... probably not, ring or not.

I also don't see what advantage Carr's four years of experience give him over Vince as far as starting in the NFL...
Playing under center...... Carr hasn't shown that he can do it correctly, unless he is handing the ball to DD or JW....

Reading NFL defenses......... I don't think it is a skill Carr has mastered yet.

Throwing Motion...... Carr's is a little better.... but they both look awkward to me.

Float..... OK..... David wins that one. Especially on the Deep ones..... but if you don't have time to take three steps, no one is getting down field fast enough..... Vince kinda throws a few ducks out there.

Complicated offense..... I may be mistaken, but we've dumbed down our offense over the last three years.... for whatever reason, the Texans doesn't run a complicated WCO... 1 read, dump... I think Vince can handle that.

texarg
02-14-2006, 08:36 AM
no sorry you took that the wrong way... he is better than walsh but what I am saying is create competition.. Heck that is what are nation is built upon always trying to out do the other person.. As one post stated DC was GIVEN the job from Day 1...

And for the guy that states about DC and Davis/Wells?.. You act like DD is chop liver... the guy has run for two straight 1000 yard seasons... and hasnt played all 16 games.. Give DD a better line and watch the zone scheme make him an even better back and maybe he wont take such a pounding... Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..QB

As for RB and gameplanning him,anyone will tell you that you can not run outside in the NFL...its a north and south game and you have to be a brusier to get through there... Thats why LJ is good from KC because he is a bigger back and uses the zone scheme well.. Thats why I think DD will flourish in the zone scheme with Kubes. As for guarding RB in the slot you can combo coverage him and bang him at the line and have help underneath.. He will catch balls as any receiving back will but dont see him doing it very much .. like I stated in an earlier post he is a Marshall Faulk guy and it helped MF that he had a good passing QB in Kurt Warner and two great WR's in Bruce and Holt. I agree with you in that RB will be a good RB and will take nothing away from him.. but I dont see him running wild in the NFL just like I dont see VY running wild either..

I just think VY fits our scheme better with the bootleg action and the play action that Kubes has in his schemes... You cant honestly say you woudnt be excited to see VY take off on a bootleg and see what happens...:drool:

ANd I know it wont happen like in college or HS but just imagine what could happen...

sorry i didnt realice that Carr has a diference line. maybe the OL works only for carr and not for davis.....
and "Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..QB"...nonsense, works too in the other way for Carr: "Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..RB and OL".
not a solid arguments againts carr.
btw: what do you think VY can do with THIS O line and RBs???? much more than Carr??? (remeber he will be a rookie in the NFL).

"I just think VY fits our scheme better with the bootleg action and the play action that Kubes has in his schemes..."

what ????? VY fits and Carr doesnt? ...maybe Kubes dont know and thats why he say 3/4 days ago: "David Carr is the texans QB" (in others words: c extention).

"just like I dont see VY running wild either.." so if dont like Carr, take Leinart: 100% passer Qb but not VY.

"You cant honestly say you woudnt be excited to see VY take off on a bootleg and see what happens"

could be, but dont going to happend in houston.

texarg
02-14-2006, 08:54 AM
I believe Reggie Bush can and will be a north/south guy in the NFL. And I believe Davis and Bush will be much, much more productive than Davis and Wells. I posted this before in another thread and I'll do it again.

Here's Tatum Bells and Mike Anderson's carries and yards in 2005:

Tatum Bell - 175 carries; 921 yards; 5.3 avg
Mike Anderson - 239 carries; 1014 yards; 4.2 avg

Combined they rushed for 1935 yards on 414 carries for a 4.6 avg. That's basically having a 2 headed monster in your backfield. I can see Davis and Bush doing even better than Bell and Anderson. First, Bush is supremely more talented than Tatum Bell and Davis is younger and more explosive than Anderson (Anderson used to be a fullback). Bush/Davis can probably total over 2100 yards in season in RUSHING yards alone. The difference comes in Bush's catching ability. Bell had 18 catches for 104 yards last year. Bush can definately catch at least between 30-40 catches a season for around 300-400 yards. Combined that would be 2500 total yards. Bush would help us immediately and would have a tremendous impact. Not even Vince Young will be able to have this much of an impact on our offense this early. I vote Bush.

:ok: 100% agree

infantrycak
02-14-2006, 09:01 AM
McNair(who loves Carr) has not wanted to protect him over the last 4 years?? That doesn't make sense.

Casserly(who loves Carr) & has some history of putting together talented football teams, has not wanted to protect Carr for the Last 4 years??
That doesn't make sense.

Capers....... football coach..... knows that winning puts food on the table, has not wanted to protect Carr over the last four years??
That doesn't make sense.

Palmer..... a quarterbacks best friend..... has not wanted to protect Carr over the last 4 years??
That doesn't make sense.

These 4 guys, along with who knows how many behind the scenes scouts, who judge talent on a daily basis, are the same bunch of guys that gave us Domonick, Dunta, Peek, Babin, Andre, Gafney, Bradford, Armstrong, Mathis, Coleman, Faggins, payne, Walker, Wells, Morency, Billy Miller, Glenn, Sharper, etc... Yet they can't put together a half decent offensive line?? They set a record for sacks their first year?? come close to breaking it their fourth??

Something isn't adding up here.

Are you seriously arguing Carr has been given anything but miserable pass protection so far? Did McNair, Casserly, Capers and Palmer want to give him good pass protection?--well of course. Did they get it done?--any answer other than no is ridiculous. I mean wow ridiculous. Geez we have hit the stage where Carr is so horrible that he actually made Victor Riley (the last significant move to give him good pass protection) look bad somehow. You're right, that just doesn't add up.

MorKnolle
02-14-2006, 09:15 AM
sorry i didnt realice that Carr has a diference line. maybe the OL works only for carr and not for davis.....
and "Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..QB"...nonsense, works too in the other way for Carr: "Have you ever thought he took more of a pounding because of his ..RB and OL".
not a solid arguments againts carr.
btw: what do you think VY can do with THIS O line and RBs???? much more than Carr??? (remeber he will be a rookie in the NFL).

"I just think VY fits our scheme better with the bootleg action and the play action that Kubes has in his schemes..."

what ????? VY fits and Carr doesnt? ...maybe Kubes dont know and thats why he say 3/4 days ago: "David Carr is the texans QB" (in others words: c extention).

"just like I dont see VY running wild either.." so if dont like Carr, take Leinart: 100% passer Qb but not VY.

"You cant honestly say you woudnt be excited to see VY take off on a bootleg and see what happens"

could be, but dont going to happend in houston.

I agree with your points, and another thing to add to the one I've underlined, we've all seen Michael Vick scrambling for five years now and taking over a few games with his legs, and he's a better runner than Vince Young so it's not going to be anything new or better than what we've seen out of Vick.

thunderkyss
02-14-2006, 10:34 AM
The difference comes in Bush's catching ability. Bell had 18 catches for 104 yards last year. Bush can definately catch at least between 30-40 catches a season for around 300-400 yards. Combined that would be 2500 total yards. Bush would help us immediately and would have a tremendous impact. Not even Vince Young will be able to have this much of an impact on our offense this early. I vote Bush.

Are you saying Tatum bell dropped 10-20 balls?? If not, you're talking about throwing the ball to your running back 10-20 more times than they did in Denver's system.... which, in my mind, is silly. Now if you're telling me he'll gain an extra 50-100 yards on those same catches, I can buy that as a good argument, and something to consider adding to my offense. But if you want me to dump down to my RB 10-20 times more, I'm just not going to do it. & if that's the difference Reggie is going to make in the NFL, then he really needs to go to a more traditional WCO.

thunderkyss
02-14-2006, 10:48 AM
Are you seriously arguing Carr has been given anything but miserable pass protection so far? Did McNair, Casserly, Capers and Palmer want to give him good pass protection?--well of course. Did they get it done?--any answer other than no is ridiculous. I mean wow ridiculous. Geez we have hit the stage where Carr is so horrible that he actually made Victor Riley (the last significant move to give him good pass protection) look bad somehow. You're right, that just doesn't add up.

So what you are saying is that none of those guys can judge talent worth a crap, when it comes to the O-line?? They can build NFL teams minus an O-Line?? I should take their word on QBs, but don't listen to a word they have to say about Offensive Line?? They were able to pick a SuperBowl winning Quarterback with their very first pick ever, but cann't seem to put a line together to afford a 3 second drop??

Tell me how that is possible??

thunderkyss
02-14-2006, 10:52 AM
I agree with your points, and another thing to add to the one I've underlined, we've all seen Michael Vick scrambling for five years now and taking over a few games with his legs, and he's a better runner than Vince Young so it's not going to be anything new or better than what we've seen out of Vick.


That's funny....... Michael Vick did get his team to the NFC championship... heck he played against a team whose running QB got them there 3 years running.... or is it 4 years running?? I remember Culpepper getting his team to the NFC championship game.... Mcnabb & McNair getting to the SuperBowl.......


Vince Young has the ability to be better than all those guys.

David Carr has the ability to be......... Jake Plummer....


hmmmm...

infantrycak
02-14-2006, 10:57 AM
So what you are saying is that none of those guys can judge talent worth a crap, when it comes to the O-line?? They can build NFL teams minus an O-Line?? I should take their word on QBs, but don't listen to a word they have to say about Offensive Line?? They were able to pick a SuperBowl winning Quarterback with their very first pick ever, but cann't seem to put a line together to afford a 3 second drop??

Tell me how that is possible??

Answer my question and I will answer yours--are you really contending Carr has gotten good or even decent pass protection the past 4 years? Whether it is a talent issue or a coaching issue it is blatantly obvious the protection has been miserable. This whole argument is silly as you are putting 4 guys on a pedestal as proof of what we have no idea (implicitly that we really have a good OL) when 1 is the owner and not a talent scout, 2 were fired for not doing their jobs well and the 4th appears to have lost much of his authority for decision making on talent. Your QB argument is nonsensical--no one is arguing McNair, Capers, Palmer and Casserly said Carr is good so he must be good.

Please tell the MB that your 4 guys proved they were doing their best or even a moderately competent job when they started Riley last year at LT.

expwrlifter
02-14-2006, 12:44 PM
The FO general hasnt done its job up to par. We have had more misses than hits... Thats why it is hard to believe DC is a hit.. I think a early post stated that the class of 2002 was the worst Top 10 in this decade...There wasnt much competition in that class, the only person to come out of the TOP 10 was Julius Peppers.. Maybe Quentin Jammer but I played HS ball with him..

TexanBacker93
02-14-2006, 12:58 PM
The FO general hasnt done its job up to par. We have had more misses than hits... Thats why it is hard to believe DC is a hit.. I think a early post stated that the class of 2002 was the worst Top 10 in this decade...There wasnt much competition in that class, the only person to come out of the TOP 10 was Julius Peppers.. Maybe Quentin Jammer but I played HS ball with him..

Jammer has been a bust. Well, he hasn't been the shutdown cover corner that the Chargers were drafting. He's a good 2nd corner, but he has not lived up to the #5 pick that he was drafted at. I don't see Carr as a hit. I don't know if he is a miss yet. With some of those players in that draft you've never seen anything to say he could turn out to be great. Carr has had some great moments. Look at the first half of the Rams game, when they let him call his own plays and opened up the offense. Look at the last Jags game when they let him throw something other than outs into the flat.

I'd just like to see what he can do with some coaching and a real chance to shine. He might not be great, but if he does turn out great and the #1 pick is turned into a Franchise LT or a freak DE then the Texans are on their way to great things because they've been able to surround him with great players.

How good would San Diego look with Roy Williams lining up on the outside with Antonio Gates at TE? What if they had D'Angelo Hall or Dunta Robinson at CB? They already had a QB that had shown some life, but had a down year. They gave up on him and used that 1st pick to get another QB. Brees has been great/very good over the past 2 years and Rivers hasn't seen the light of day. Plus, with that deal down they got Shawne Merriman.

The Texans have that same opportunity. Every couple of years brings about a "never seen before" type of player. This year there are 2. That means the ability to trade down is hightened. The Texans can get a Ferguson or Williams plus a good draft pick next year. Yes, I realize how good Young might be, but Young alone won't make the defense better. Young won't make the O-Line better. QBs take a few years to develop. No matter who they are. I believe the Texans will be a better team over the next 5 seasons by adding multiple picks and upgrading at the positions that matter most.

thunderkyss
02-14-2006, 01:16 PM
Answer my question and I will answer yours--are you really contending Carr has gotten good or even decent pass protection the past 4 years?
Please tell the MB that your 4 guys proved they were doing their best or even a moderately competent job when they started Riley last year at LT.

No, I'm not saying David has had good protection. I'm saying our GM, who is still our GM, who still heads our scouting department, our personnell department, is still going to be involved with our next bunch of picks. You're going to tell me Carr is the right pick, based on his opinion, and Reeves, and Kubiak, when they all answer to the same man. That man may very well be more medling than you and I both know. For all I know, he said we've got to make Carr work, and Capers..... who has had success with an expansion team, couldn't make it work. Everybody can look at Carr, and say yeah he's got the talent to accomplish what you want MR Mcnair. But as been stated in the many anti VY posts, talent isn't even half the equation.

Personally, I think our offense has been modelled after the Denver offense. But I've got to wonder why we don't move the pocket...... our Lineman are agile enough to pull it off, why don't we do it?? Instead of movng the pocket, Capers and Palmer chose to get the ball out quicker.

So I've answered your question. Answer mine. They can pick Pro Bowl recievers & punt returners.... they can find great value in RBs..... they picked a great Corner, and Buchanan may pay off. Talent wise, the team isn't really bad... but we've missed 5 out of 5 on the O-line?? even 1 out of 5 doesn't make sense.


Edited.....

Oh yeah, I forgot to add they picked a possible Pro Bowler in Carr??

travfrancis
02-14-2006, 01:24 PM
I believe the Texans will be a better team over the next 5 seasons by adding multiple picks and upgrading at the positions that matter most.

the position that matters most is QB.

infantrycak
02-14-2006, 01:45 PM
I'm saying our GM, who is still our GM, who still heads our scouting department, our personnell department, is still going to be involved with our next bunch of picks. You're going to tell me Carr is the right pick, based on his opinion, and Reeves, and Kubiak, when they all answer to the same man.

Well now you have changed the question (now McNair, Casserly, Kubiak and Reeves) since your first one (McNair, Casserly, Capers and Palmer) didn't work--of course the new form doesn't work since two of the four haven't drafted anyone or worked on the OL.

In any event, there is zero logic in the connection you are trying to make. Basically your assertion is either everything must be a success on draft picks and building every unit of a team, particularly the OL (and FA's and coaching--since that is what a good OL takes) or they must all be failures. It is just silly to assert that if the OL is bad, Carr must be also or that if Carr is good, the OL must be also just because the same GM and coaches were involved. You have watched the NFL for long enough to have noticed how not every piece to the team may perform equally like say for example Indy having a great O and suck D (despite Dungy's strength being D, or the opposite in Baltimore where Billick's strength is O)? What you have tried to twist is a simple statement by some folks--the fact that Kubiak and Reeves (new guys who neither picked Carr nor built the old OL), two guys with a ton of NFL experience and a heavy emphasis on QB's, appear to have confidence that David Carr can be a successful QB and live up to the potential from when he was drafted gives some people comfort. It's fine if it doesn't give you any comfort because you don't want to hear anything about Carr other than the door hitting him in the butt on the way out, but your purported connection between the OL's success in the past and Carr's in the future is just goofy.

So I've answered your question. Answer mine. They can pick Pro Bowl recievers & punt returners.... they can find great value in RBs..... they picked a great Corner, and Buchanan may pay off. Talent wise, the team isn't really bad... but we've missed 5 out of 5 on the O-line?? even 1 out of 5 doesn't make sense.

Well how about it seems pretty clear Reeves and McNair believe the coaches in place were not capable of using the talent they were provided, hence Casserly stayed and Capers, Palmer and Pendry are gone. Have you missed that part of what has gone on here? We will have a lot better idea of what Casserly's track record on the talent is when we see what Kubiak/Sherman/Reeves put together--do they make it out of parts in the bin or go back to the shop. Right now they have all five OL draft picks the Texans have ever made, Pitts, Weary, Brown, Hodgdon and Wand to work with.

FYI--if you want to look at failed drafting in a unit, try pointing to the DL--Charles Hill, Howard Green, Ahmad Miller, Keith Wright--seen any of those guys around lately?

thunderkyss
02-14-2006, 01:45 PM
the position that matters most is QB.


Only if he is the field general...... if he's supposed to be a don't-screw-it-up QB like Trent Dilfer, then it don't matter. David will fit that role fine.

A Texan
02-14-2006, 03:05 PM
6. The problem with a running QB is they only get slower as they get older. They are more likely to get injured. VY is a good passer but based on his passing ability alone he is not a Top QB prospect. Sorry.

GO TEXANS.

Not really. QB's worse injuries happen (especially the concussions that have shortened many a QB's career in the NFL) when they are hit in the backfield by 300-pound plus linemen. The more mobile a QB is the more able he is to avoid such hits.

TexanBacker93
02-14-2006, 03:14 PM
the position that matters most is QB.

It depends on how the team is structured. A good QB or at least a QB that can manage a gameplan well is needed. On this current team with huge problems on the line and absolutely no pass rush I think they are more important positions to improving the team. I'll try to be more clear in the future.

texarg
02-14-2006, 03:16 PM
That's funny....... Michael Vick did get his team to the NFC championship... heck he played against a team whose running QB got them there 3 years running.... or is it 4 years running?? I remember Culpepper getting his team to the NFC championship game.... Mcnabb & McNair getting to the SuperBowl.......


Vince Young has the ability to be better than all those guys.

David Carr has the ability to be......... Jake Plummer....

hmmmm...

Vick + McNabb + McNair = 0 SB!!!

why we should think VY "stile" can win the big one when all this NFL stars fell short??? and this comparation isnt fair...McNabb and McNair have lost SBs , VY hasn t a single snap in the NFL.

And compare Carr with Plummer...i take that like a joke...Plummer plays in Denver and remember the supporting cast he has around (Anderson, Smith, an OL, good def.)...this Carr=Plummer isnt serious.

Vinny
02-14-2006, 03:17 PM
Vick + McNabb + McNair = 0 SB!!!
Vick + McNabb + McNair = 7 Conference Championship games (off the top of my head...plus or minus one either way).

texarg
02-14-2006, 03:26 PM
So what you are saying is that none of those guys can judge talent worth a crap, when it comes to the O-line?? They can build NFL teams minus an O-Line?? I should take their word on QBs, but don't listen to a word they have to say about Offensive Line?? They were able to pick a SuperBowl winning Quarterback with their very first pick ever, but cann't seem to put a line together to afford a 3 second drop??

Tell me how that is possible??


:hmmm:
bad coachs, bad luck or maybe because they are humans been and not madden players...yeap...its easy in madden!

texarg
02-14-2006, 03:31 PM
Vick + McNabb + McNair = 7 Conference Championship games (off the top of my head...plus or minus one either way).

7 confenece champinships , 0 SuperBowls....conclussion: you are right.....if only wants to play a conf. champinship (not win one, just play it) and never won a SuperBowl: pick a running QB.

To win a SB play with a passer QB (Montana, Brady, Aikman...Big Ben...: 11 SB with this 4)

TexanBacker93
02-14-2006, 03:41 PM
7 confenece champinships , 0 SuperBowls....conclussion: you are right.....if only wants to play a conf. champinship (not win one, just play it) and never won a SuperBowl: pick a running QB.

To win a SB play with a passer QB (Montana, Brady, Aikman...Big Ben...: 11 SB with this 4)

Someone else on this board a few weeks ago suggested that the fans in Houston would prefer a VY led team that makes the playoffs most of the time but never wins to a Carr led team that wins a couple of Super Bowls. I guess if you want a run first QB you can expect to be good, but never great. If you want a chance to be great you need a traditional QB.

Texans_Chick
02-14-2006, 03:53 PM
7 confenece champinships , 0 SuperBowls....conclussion: you are right.....if only wants to play a conf. champinship (not win one, just play it) and never won a SuperBowl: pick a running QB.

To win a SB play with a passer QB (Montana, Brady, Aikman...Big Ben...: 11 SB with this 4)


In the history of the NFL, there have been lots of fungible pocket passers. Some of those are good, some of those are non good, and many in the middle.

In the history of the NFL, relatively speaking, there have been few QBs that have a combination of mobility and throwing accuracy.

You would expect more of the fungible pocket passers to have success because there is just more of them. It is amazing how much success the more mobile QBs have had given how few of them there are relatively speaking.

But personally, I am not about generalizations and more about looking at the specific attributes of players. BTW, Vick is not the same player as VY--different size, different abilities.

thunderkyss
02-14-2006, 05:39 PM
Well now you have changed the question (now McNair, Casserly, Kubiak and Reeves) since your first one (McNair, Casserly, Capers and Palmer) didn't work--of course the new form doesn't work since two of the four haven't drafted anyone or worked on the OL.

That isn't even a question.... the part you quoted.... wasn't even a question.

So I've answered your question. Answer mine. They can pick Pro Bowl recievers & punt returners.... they can find great value in RBs..... they picked a great Corner, and Buchanan may pay off. Talent wise, the team isn't really bad... but we've missed 5 out of 5 on the O-line?? even 1 out of 5 doesn't make sense.


Edited.....

Oh yeah, I forgot to add they picked a possible Pro Bowler in Carr??

That's the same question I asked before. Casserly, Capers et.. al... can make good picks at all spots, other than offensive line... how does that make sense??

In any event, there is zero logic in the connection you are trying to make. Basically your assertion is either everything must be a success on draft picks and building every unit of a team, particularly the OL (and FA's and coaching--since that is what a good OL takes) or they must all be failures. It is just silly to assert that if the OL is bad, Carr must be also or that if Carr is good, the OL must be also just because the same GM and coaches were involved. You have watched the NFL for long enough to have noticed how not every piece to the team may perform equally like say for example Indy having a great O and suck D (despite Dungy's strength being D, or the opposite in Baltimore where Billick's strength is O)? What you have tried to twist is a simple statement by some folks--the fact that Kubiak and Reeves (new guys who neither picked Carr nor built the old OL), two guys with a ton of NFL experience and a heavy emphasis on QB's, appear to have confidence that David Carr can be a successful QB and live up to the potential from when he was drafted gives some people comfort. It's fine if it doesn't give you any comfort because you don't want to hear anything about Carr other than the door hitting him in the butt on the way out, but your purported connection between the OL's success in the past and Carr's in the future is just goofy.

What?? I'm getting Dizzy. I can't even remember what I was saying.


Well how about it seems pretty clear Reeves and McNair believe the coaches in place were not capable of using the talent they were provided, hence Casserly stayed and Capers, Palmer and Pendry are gone. Have you missed that part of what has gone on here?
This is the kind of statement my first reply was addressing. Basically, I said what if it is McNair that is the problem. mandating that Carr starts, and Capers finds a way to make it happen. Capers couldn't do it, so he's gone. McNair still wants Carr to succeed, so he finds the people who say they can do it....

I'm saying it doesn't make sense, that Capers, Palmer, and Pendry just ignored the offensive line. Everybody knew Carr needed more protection. But in Four years, the people that brought us good talent at other positions, couldn't find the talent to protect Carr??

I'm saying either the Offensive linemen just didn't like Carr, or David is a bigger part of the problem, than a lot of people want to let on.

We will have a lot better idea of what Casserly's track record on the talent is when we see what Kubiak/Sherman/Reeves put together--do they make it out of parts in the bin or go back to the shop. Right now they have all five OL draft picks the Texans have ever made, Pitts, Weary, Brown, Hodgdon and Wand to work with.

FYI--if you want to look at failed drafting in a unit, try pointing to the DL--Charles Hill, Howard Green, Ahmad Miller, Keith Wright--seen any of those guys around lately?

And here, it looks like you are saying the Deffensive line is a failure, since we have none of our picks on the current roster. The O-Line, has all 5 picks we ever drafted, hence it appears Casserly, Capers, Palmer, and Pendry were succesful in drafting O-Linemen.

And looking at the St Louis game, were no one has answered my question about that.... The O-Line gave Carr the time to do what he can do in the first half, but not the second. David must have said something to really upset those guys...... if he didn't then you tell me why they failed to protect him in the second half, and not the first.

thunderkyss
02-14-2006, 05:46 PM
:hmmm:
bad coachs, bad luck or maybe because they are humans been and not madden players...yeap...its easy in madden!


So if all we need is coaching, why do we need D'brickshaw?? or Mario?? why do we need anything??


Just take the BPA, and be done with it. Vince... Bush... Vince... Bush... well, since we don't really need anything, and the Houston fans want Vince..

thunderkyss
02-14-2006, 05:49 PM
7 confenece champinships , 0 SuperBowls....conclussion: you are right.....if only wants to play a conf. champinship (not win one, just play it) and never won a SuperBowl: pick a running QB.

To win a SB play with a passer QB (Montana, Brady, Aikman...Big Ben...: 11 SB with this 4)


And which one do you think Carr resembles the most?? Big Ben?? Aikman?? Brady?? not Montana....

So what have we got?? Jake Plummer= 0 conference championships, 0 superbowls.....

TexanBacker93
02-14-2006, 05:57 PM
So if all we need is coaching, why do we need D'brickshaw?? or Mario?? why do we need anything??


Just take the BPA, and be done with it. Vince... Bush... Vince... Bush... well, since we don't really need anything, and the Houston fans want Vince..


Some Houston fans want Vince. Some want Bush. Some want Mario. Some want D'Brick. Just because the proVince fans are the loudest doesn't mean there are more of them.

stevo3883
02-14-2006, 06:07 PM
Some Houston fans want Vince. Some want Bush. Some want Mario. Some want D'Brick. Just because the proVince fans are the loudest doesn't mean there are more of them.


umm, in houston, i would be willing to bet there are quite a bit more that want Vince than Dbrick or Mario.


doesn't mean im saying theyre right, but acting like its only just a few vocal UT fans is misguided. A lot of people with no connecton to UT want vince.

texarg
02-14-2006, 07:07 PM
In the history of the NFL, there have been lots of fungible pocket passers. Some of those are good, some of those are non good, and many in the middle.

In the history of the NFL, relatively speaking, there have been few QBs that have a combination of mobility and throwing accuracy.

You would expect more of the fungible pocket passers to have success because there is just more of them. It is amazing how much success the more mobile QBs have had given how few of them there are relatively speaking.

But personally, I am not about generalizations and more about looking at the specific attributes of players. BTW, Vick is not the same player as VY--different size, different abilities.

There are/were more pocket passers because this is the way it works to win.
The same reason why there are/were so fews mobiles Qbs: few chance to succes in or to reach the final game (maybe just to a conf champ. game).
Excep: Steve Young (only 1 SB) , cant remember other right now.

Texans_Chick
02-14-2006, 08:05 PM
There are/were more pocket passers because this is the way it works to win.
The same reason why there are/were so fews mobiles Qbs: few chance to succes in or to reach the final game (maybe just to a conf champ. game).
Excep: Steve Young (only 1 SB) , cant remember other right now.


You do not know that pocket passers = wins or mobile QBs = no Super Bowl. You haven't got a large enough sample to make such a conclusion, and even if you had a huge sample, that sorta reasoning doesn't take into account individual talent differences between players that defy categorization.

It just so happens that most great QBs in NFL history are pocket passers and most of the atrocious QBs in NFL history are pocket passers. You can't draw any conclusion from that, other than surmising that most NFL QBs are pocket passers.

I kinda like this logic fallacy.

David Carr is better than nothing.
Nothing is better than God.
Therefore David Carr is better than God.

(cue lightning bolt).

:cool:

Maddict5
02-14-2006, 08:22 PM
You can look back at every draft and find 2 to 3 of the top 10 picks that were either an outright bust or significantly performed below their "projected" abilities.
2002 - David Carr #1, Joey Harrington #3, Mike Williams #4, Quentin Jammer #5, Ryan Sims #6, Levi Jones #10


McKinnie is very good.

are you havin a laugh-levi jones is in the top 5 lt's in the nfl- mckinnie is the 1 performing significantly below his projected ability

Maddict5
02-14-2006, 08:29 PM
Vince Young has the ability to be better than all those guys.

David Carr has the ability to be......... Jake Plummer....


hmmmm...

yeah that dumb...i could go into a long post about how you know what players will amount to but just couldn't be bothered arguing with some1 that posts something as retarded as that

TexanBacker93
02-14-2006, 08:33 PM
umm, in houston, i would be willing to bet there are quite a bit more that want Vince than Dbrick or Mario.


doesn't mean im saying theyre right, but acting like its only just a few vocal UT fans is misguided. A lot of people with no connecton to UT want vince.

Houston Texans fans aren't all from this city. Even fans living here didn't all originate here. I would bet if they could poll every Texans fan living in the city as many would want Bush, Brick, or Mario than want Young.

I know UT fans that don't want Vince. I know non-UT fans that do want him. It's not just a few, but they are the loudest.

Maddict5
02-14-2006, 08:33 PM
The FO general hasnt done its job up to par. We have had more misses than hits... Thats why it is hard to believe DC is a hit.. I think a early post stated that the class of 2002 was the worst Top 10 in this decade...There wasnt much competition in that class, the only person to come out of the TOP 10 was Julius Peppers.. Maybe Quentin Jammer but I played HS ball with him..

id agree with you if casserly was making the decision on his own but kubiak and reeves have also seen something in carr that they like so il give them the benefit of the doubt

Wolf
02-14-2006, 08:34 PM
I kinda like this logic fallacy.

David Carr is better than nothing.
Nothing is better than God.
Therefore David Carr is better than God.

(cue lightning bolt).

:cool:

funny!! ..
I like this one

If practice makes perfect.. and noone is perfect.. why practice? :heh:

TexanBacker93
02-14-2006, 08:42 PM
are you havin a laugh-levi jones is in the top 5 lt's in the nfl- mckinnie is the 1 performing significantly below his projected ability


I was thinking of L.J. Shelton when I saw Levi Jones. I know the names aren't the same, but that's who I was thinking of. I don't consider Jones a bust. He is one of the top LTs. McKinnie is too, though.

Koolbrz
02-14-2006, 08:45 PM
Just like they already have Carrs' #.


They don't have his #. Our team just sucked last yr. DC is not looking to run and has a better arm than VY. Damn, everyone was all up on DC's wagon in 04. Talkin about next yr he will take us to the playoffs. Now everyone wants his head on a silver platter. Honestly, if the play calling would have been better, instead of the run, run, pass gig they had going all yr, better o-line, better team all around no one would be DC hating so much. Come on now, am i not telling the truth. Did you even know that they had switched up the offensve scheme for the begining of the yr. Then after the 2nd game tried to go back to the offense they ran the yr. before. That is after running the new offensive scheme all preseason long and first 2 games of season.

Wolf
02-14-2006, 08:53 PM
funny how people on here get blinders on (or should I say tunnel vision) and it is easy to twist things around about this guy didn't get to the superbowl or that guy so they must be bad


For some reason we relate whether ONE player can carry a team to a championship

I see no Michael Jordan -equivalent in the NFL.. where one player can carry a team (Jordan about the only player)

If that is the case. Peyton, Marino, Barry Sanders,Bo Jackson,Randy Moss , Earl Campbell, (just naming alllstars here) would have some SuperBowl wins and not people like Larry Brown,Trent Dilfer (just trying to think of some skill position non all-stars)

In all sports it is a team effort and destiny has a way.. I mean would would have thought Robert Horry or John Salley has numerous NBA titles over someone like Barkley

or back to football .. someone had a quote about .. "the only reason Emmitt Smith was a Cowboy is because Blair Thomas was taken" or something to that effect..

Carr is far from being "great" but I feel he hasn't been in a position to grow. (if he can grow)
2002.. OL stunk...yet Palmer had to run a vanilla offense (hitches and predictable runs up the middle on passing downs) just to keep him from getting knocked around.

2003.. we saw about the same..
2004 protection was better and we got AJ the ball on quick slants and AJ made Carr look great because he could break one (don't reacall his YAC offhand)
2005 protection went south and AJ couldn't get the slants and stats fell..

Carr has confidence problems IMO.. maybe not in himself, but with the system that we ran and confidence in his OL

As with the grumbling on the defense .. same scenario..

Good QB's when rushed... look downfield and "feel" the pressure... Carr still looks at the Pressure and "feels" the turf (whether it is the defense coming on him or like Vinny said.. curls up) and hopefully coaching can straighten him out mentally
anyway end rant.. :spy:

Koolbrz
02-14-2006, 08:53 PM
That's funny....... Michael Vick did get his team to the NFC championship... heck he played against a team whose running QB got them there 3 years running.... or is it 4 years running?? I remember Culpepper getting his team to the NFC championship game.... Mcnabb & McNair getting to the SuperBowl.......


Vince Young has the ability to be better than all those guys.

David Carr has the ability to be......... Jake Plummer....


hmmmm...

McNabb, McNair, Culpepper have one thing that Vick and VY don't have. Ready for this....A GREAT ARM!!!:)

Maddict5
02-14-2006, 08:56 PM
I've been a good fan for the last 4 years. I've defended Carr, for 4 years. I used the same tired excuse that you guys have for 4 years. He has no time. No one could do better. blah, blah, blah........... bleh, bleh, bleh.... bloo, bloo, bloo....... Now I see someone in the Draft, who is dynamic...... who doesn't give up on a play, who wins, because he wants to.... I see someone, that could possibly be the envy of the league given time. He could possibly be a first ballot Hall of famer...
Complicated offense..... I may be mistaken, but we've dumbed down our offense over the last three years.... for whatever reason, the Texans doesn't run a complicated WCO... 1 read, dump... I think Vince can handle that.

1- have these 'excuses' been discredited-has it been shown that in fact DC has loads of time in the pocket- please explain what you expect VY to do if he has no o-line
2-what is it with all the 'VY could be...' any player in the draft 'could be'...a HoF....a bust....no1 ever knows
3- correct me if im wrong, but i havent heard Kubiak sayin he'll run the Dom Capers style of offence:rolleyes:

Koolbrz
02-14-2006, 08:57 PM
That's funny....... Michael Vick did get his team to the NFC championship... heck he played against a team whose running QB got them there 3 years running.... or is it 4 years running?? I remember Culpepper getting his team to the NFC championship game.... Mcnabb & McNair getting to the SuperBowl.......


Vince Young has the ability to be better than all those guys.

David Carr has the ability to be......... Jake Plummer....


hmmmm...


And they still have not won a SUPERBOWL

Maddict5
02-14-2006, 08:58 PM
Vick has a great arm he just isnt very accurate(although he somehow managed to beat manning in the qb accuracy comp in hawaii lol)

Maddict5
02-14-2006, 09:03 PM
I was thinking of L.J. Shelton when I saw Levi Jones. I know the names aren't the same, but that's who I was thinking of. I don't consider Jones a bust. He is one of the top LTs. McKinnie is too, though.

ok fair enough..all the other o-line 'busts' you named were spot on so i accept it was a slip..still think mckinnie is way overrated..id regard him as average at best at pass protection and for some1 his size you'd think he would be a better run-blocker

texarg
02-14-2006, 10:42 PM
You do not know that pocket passers = wins or mobile QBs = no Super Bowl. You haven't got a large enough sample to make such a conclusion, and even if you had a huge sample, that sorta reasoning doesn't take into account individual talent differences between players that defy categorization.

It just so happens that most great QBs in NFL history are pocket passers and most of the atrocious QBs in NFL history are pocket passers. You can't draw any conclusion from that, other than surmising that most NFL QBs are pocket passers.

I kinda like this logic fallacy.

David Carr is better than nothing.
Nothing is better than God.
Therefore David Carr is better than God.

(cue lightning bolt).

:cool:

The sample is in the statics and the list of QBs SuperBolw winners. +/- 37 of 40.

funny logic you post...but not really accurated.
its more like the Darwin´s theory : natural selection makes passer QBs win SB (if not, mobile QB could win a SB too), so a "new" QB, would like to be a winner tipe or a loser...been a passer a Qb has a chance , been a mobile hasnt....so thats why there are (much) more passer than mobile Qbs, because a MOBILE QB NO WINS SB.

BTW: Nothing is better than God???:hmmm:

Nighthawk
02-14-2006, 11:56 PM
1- have these 'excuses' been discredited-has it been shown that in fact DC has loads of time in the pocket- please explain what you expect VY to do if he has no o-line
2-what is it with all the 'VY could be...' any player in the draft 'could be'...a HoF....a bust....no1 ever knows
3- correct me if im wrong, but i havent heard Kubiak sayin he'll run the Dom Capers style of offence:rolleyes:



1. WWVYD? Move, something Carr can't do except (a) into a sack, or (b) toward the sidelines
2. VY has a career at prior levels that show him to be well above most other players at those levels, thus it is reasonable to infer that he has a good chance of being well above average at the next level.
3. K will, we all assume, run Denver's offense, or some variant thereof.

thunderkyss
02-15-2006, 07:23 AM
funny how people on here get blinders on (or should I say tunnel vision) and it is easy to twist things around about this guy didn't get to the superbowl or that guy so they must be bad


For some reason we relate whether ONE player can carry a team to a championship

I see no Michael Jordan -equivalent in the NFL.. where one player can carry a team (Jordan about the only player)

If that is the case. Peyton, Marino, Barry Sanders,Bo Jackson,Randy Moss , Earl Campbell, (just naming alllstars here) would have some SuperBowl wins and not people like Larry Brown,Trent Dilfer (just trying to think of some skill position non all-stars)

In all sports it is a team effort and destiny has a way.. I mean would would have thought Robert Horry or John Salley has numerous NBA titles over someone like Barkley

:spy:

Good post alltogether. But.........

Not everybody here thought Carr would take us to the playoffs. I thought we'd get there, but not all of us thought Carr would take us.

Barkley...... Stockton...... Malone.... Iverson......... all great players. Great Talent. Michael Jordan had that extra something. If you can't see that, I understand how you don't understand.

At least you acknowledge that Carr has problems. You want to fix him. I don't. Well, I would if I didn't see Vince Young being much more than what Carr could be. That's why I could care less for Matt Lienart...... I doubt he is going to be much more than the best David Can be. Even Cutler...... from what I've seen, I'd love him to be on this team. I think he's got that competitive edge in him, that goes beyond his talent.

1- have these 'excuses' been discredited-has it been shown that in fact DC has loads of time in the pocket- please explain what you expect VY to do if he has no o-line
2-what is it with all the 'VY could be...' any player in the draft 'could be'...a HoF....a bust....no1 ever knows
3- correct me if im wrong, but i havent heard Kubiak sayin he'll run the Dom Capers style of offence:rolleyes:


1: Throw the Ball...... Not to him.... those are the words that I screamed at my poor TV, as I saw How David handled himself out of the pocket..... yeah, that was a first down, but look he was open.. or he was open...., or don't run that way...... What are you doing...

2: There's got to be a reason you rank players coming out of college. Some players are projected to have better careers than others........... I'm not the only one who does this. You do it too. You just don't project Vince as highly as I do. That's ok.

3: You're not wrong about Kubiak's anouncing his offensive plans, however, your conclusion from my statement is wrong. It's a nock against Vince, because he ran a simple offense......... it's not David's fault, that he ran a simple offense. We'll take a step back drafting Vince, because he'll have to learn the offense. But we won't take a step back with David, who didn't run any offense at all for the last 4 years.....

thunderkyss
02-15-2006, 07:38 AM
And they still have not won a SUPERBOWL


Were's the "it's a team game" mentallity?? If we want to go there, David still hasn't won three in a row. How many games has he thrown more than two touchdowns?? Pro-Bowls?? Offensive MVP-of-the-week?? has he even won one of Howie Long's tough man awards?? Phil Simms' Iron man awards?? a John Madden Turduckin leg?? anything??

MorKnolle
02-15-2006, 09:00 AM
Vick has a great arm he just isnt very accurate(although he somehow managed to beat manning in the qb accuracy comp in hawaii lol)

Vick does have one of the 5 strongest arms in the league, and I think he is getting more accurate than people realize. I think a lot of his accuracy problems can be attributed to the fact that he never has a consistent receiving core (Crumpler is the only decent receiver that has been with the team for more than two years outside of Brian Finneran. His receiving core keeps changing and it naturally takes both the QB and WRs time to adjust to each other. I think he also has a problem that Favre used to have with many of receivers that he can throw the ball pretty accurately when he guns it, but many of his guys have trouble catching passes that are thrown that hard, so he either needs to learn to put a little more of a soft touch on it or his receivers have to learn to catch his throws. His completion percentages are always pretty low, but he does take care of the ball and has never thrown more INTs than TDs after his rookie year (49-36 since then, which isn't a bad ratio).

bklatch
02-15-2006, 11:43 AM
How can you say Young is a better player than Carr when Young hasn't even stepped foot onto an NFL field?


Because if DC and VY had been the QB's this year at UT, DC would not have started. Face it guys and gals DC played in the WAC. DC was a great QB in that league, but he has had 4 years and that is plenty. If he was so fast and so good he would have been able to make things happen for the Texans. In stead he suffered with brain lock and got sacked a lot. I agree with the coach VY will make things happen at the next level. We can either watch him do it on our team or watch him beat us playing for someone else.

MorKnolle
02-15-2006, 11:49 AM
Because if DC and VY had been the QB's this year at UT, DC would not have started. Face it guys and gals DC played in the WAC. DC was a great QB in that league, but he has had 4 years and that is plenty. If he was so fast and so good he would have been able to make things happen for the Texans. In stead he suffered with brain lock and got sacked a lot. I agree with the coach VY will make things happen at the next level. We can either watch him do it on our team or watch him beat us playing for someone else.

If UT had more of a pure QB like David Carr there with Vince, they would have moved Vince over to WR earlier in his career there and we wouldn't even be talking about him as a QB right now.

thunderkyss
02-15-2006, 11:59 AM
If UT had more of a pure QB like David Carr there with Vince, they would have moved Vince over to WR earlier in his career there and we wouldn't even be talking about him as a QB right now.

If I remember correctly, Vince was showing flashes of brilliance when Mock and crew were starting. People were wanting to start Vince, and Mack was dealing with his can't win the big one troubles.

You may very well be right, but I think starting Vince came at a time when Mack understood he needed to do something different...

bigTEXan8
02-15-2006, 11:59 AM
If UT had more of a pure QB like David Carr there with Vince, they would have moved Vince over to WR earlier in his career there and we wouldn't even be talking about him as a QB right now.

Good, solid point and post.

WE DON'T NEED VY...WE NEED PROTECTION

stevo3883
02-15-2006, 12:36 PM
If UT had more of a pure QB like David Carr there with Vince, they would have moved Vince over to WR earlier in his career there and we wouldn't even be talking about him as a QB right now.


lol... Vince took over his FRESHMAN year over pure pocket junior qb chance mock.

man you really don't know much about vince, why act like an expert?

infantrycak
02-15-2006, 12:39 PM
lol... Vince took over his FRESHMAN year over pure pocket junior qb chance mock.

man you really don't know much about vince, why act like an expert?

You mean the Chance Mock who won't ever play in the NFL and wasn't even drafted. Yup, that is pretty much the same question as any other pocket passer going up against him, much less someone who garnered a #1 overall pick. C'mon--that isn't in the same ball park--didn't really need to know much about VY to know that was silly.

thunderkyss
02-15-2006, 01:19 PM
You mean the Chance Mock who won't ever play in the NFL and wasn't even drafted. Yup, that is pretty much the same question as any other pocket passer going up against him, much less someone who garnered a #1 overall pick. C'mon--that isn't in the same ball park--didn't really need to know much about VY to know that was silly.


So you guys don't see the comparison between McNabb and Culpepper??

bklatch
02-15-2006, 01:25 PM
Good, solid point and post.

WE DON'T NEED VY...WE NEED PROTECTION


I see why you have a mancrush for DC being from Fresno, but if you opened up your eyes you would see that protection would not help DC. He is not all that!

stevo3883
02-15-2006, 01:32 PM
You mean the Chance Mock who won't ever play in the NFL and wasn't even drafted. Yup, that is pretty much the same question as any other pocket passer going up against him, much less someone who garnered a #1 overall pick. C'mon--that isn't in the same ball park--didn't really need to know much about VY to know that was silly.


what?

He said if they had a qb like Carr. i figured that meant a pocket passer. Chance Mock was i think the #3 qb recruit in the nation.

He suggested that if Texas had a pocket passing qb, that VY wouldve been moved to WR. except texas did have a more than capable junior pocket passing qb, and vince jumped him on the depth chart as a freshman.

just because he isnt in the nfl doesnt mean he wasn't any good.

MorKnolle
02-15-2006, 01:53 PM
lol... Vince took over his FRESHMAN year over pure pocket junior qb chance mock.

man you really don't know much about vince, why act like an expert?

Chance Mock sure is a great QB, Carr was much better in college (and now) than Mock, and Mack Brown showed that he wanted to play a traditional QB rather than an athlete there so Carr most likely would have been given the starting spot and never had it taken from him and Vince would likely be a WR right now.

MorKnolle
02-15-2006, 01:55 PM
So you guys don't see the comparison between McNabb and Culpepper??

What comparison between McNabb and Culpepper?

texarg
02-15-2006, 01:57 PM
funny how people on here get blinders on (or should I say tunnel vision) and it is easy to twist things around about this guy didn't get to the superbowl or that guy so they must be bad


For some reason we relate whether ONE player can carry a team to a championship
I see no Michael Jordan -equivalent in the NFL.. where one player can carry a team (Jordan about the only player)

If that is the case. Peyton, Marino, Barry Sanders,Bo Jackson,Randy Moss , Earl Campbell, (just naming alllstars here) would have some SuperBowl wins and not people like Larry Brown,Trent Dilfer (just trying to think of some skill position non all-stars)

In all sports it is a team effort and destiny has a way.. I mean would would have thought Robert Horry or John Salley has numerous NBA titles over someone like Barkley

or back to football .. someone had a quote about .. "the only reason Emmitt Smith was a Cowboy is because Blair Thomas was taken" or something to that effect..

Carr is far from being "great" but I feel he hasn't been in a position to grow. (if he can grow)
2002.. OL stunk...yet Palmer had to run a vanilla offense (hitches and predictable runs up the middle on passing downs) just to keep him from getting knocked around.

2003.. we saw about the same..
2004 protection was better and we got AJ the ball on quick slants and AJ made Carr look great because he could break one (don't reacall his YAC offhand)
2005 protection went south and AJ couldn't get the slants and stats fell..

Carr has confidence problems IMO.. maybe not in himself, but with the system that we ran and confidence in his OL

As with the grumbling on the defense .. same scenario..

Good QB's when rushed... look downfield and "feel" the pressure... Carr still looks at the Pressure and "feels" the turf (whether it is the defense coming on him or like Vinny said.. curls up) and hopefully coaching can straighten him out mentallyanyway end rant.. :spy:


:ok: exactly...and thats why we shouldnt draf VY.

infantrycak
02-15-2006, 03:07 PM
what?

He said if they had a qb like Carr. i figured that meant a pocket passer. Chance Mock was i think the #3 qb recruit in the nation.

He suggested that if Texas had a pocket passing qb, that VY wouldve been moved to WR. except texas did have a more than capable junior pocket passing qb, and vince jumped him on the depth chart as a freshman.

just because he isnt in the nfl doesnt mean he wasn't any good.

This really is simple--just because VY beat out one pocket passer doesn't mean he would have beat out every pocket passer--also known as every pocket passer is not created equal. Applying those to this scenario, sorry but no there is no comparison between someone who may have been just fine in college but who the entire NFL rejected and someone who was universally viewed as a 1st round pick. I am not saying Young would not have beaten out Carr. All I am saying is Young beating out Mock has zilch to do with whether he would have been able to beat out Carr.

bigTEXan8
02-15-2006, 03:34 PM
I see why you have a mancrush for DC being from Fresno, but if you opened up your eyes you would see that protection would not help DC. He is not all that!

And I can see by only your 2nd post, you already know my exact position about Carr. I am from Fresno yes, but that doesn't mean I am blind to what is obvious. So, to inform you, to preven future rush of judgement, my opinion about Carr:

He is perfect...believe me, I'm not blind. I just credit his lack of production to lousy coaching, lack of production, lack of supporting cast. Appparently, I'm not the only one either. A majority of people in the NFL think that DC can succeed, provided he is given the benefit almost every other QB in the NFL has been given. Has Carr made mistakes, yeah, ones that drove me bonkers. But he has shown he can compete in the NFL legitimately.

thunderkyss
02-15-2006, 04:07 PM
And I can see by only your 2nd post, you already know my exact position about Carr. I am from Fresno yes, but that doesn't mean I am blind to what is obvious. So, to inform you, to preven future rush of judgement, my opinion about Carr:

He is perfect...believe me, I'm not blind. I just credit his lack of production to lousy coaching, lack of production, lack of supporting cast. Appparently, I'm not the only one either. A majority of people in the NFL think that DC can succeed, provided he is given the benefit almost every other QB in the NFL has been given. Has Carr made mistakes, yeah, ones that drove me bonkers. But he has shown he can compete in the NFL legitimately.


a majority of the people thought Couch was the right pick. They thought Ryan Leaf would be an NFL Star. A lot of people thought Indy would win the SuperBowl in 2005.

chuckm
02-15-2006, 04:11 PM
a majority of the people thought Couch was the right pick. They thought Ryan Leaf would be an NFL Star. A lot of people thought Indy would win the SuperBowl in 2005.


and these same people probably think VY will be an awesome NFL QB .......

TheOgre
02-15-2006, 04:14 PM
That's funny....... Michael Vick did get his team to the NFC championship... heck he played against a team whose running QB got them there 3 years running.... or is it 4 years running?? I remember Culpepper getting his team to the NFC championship game.... Mcnabb & McNair getting to the SuperBowl.......


Vince Young has the ability to be better than all those guys.

David Carr has the ability to be......... Jake Plummer....


hmmmm...

I would not consider McNair a running QB. Plummer is more of a running QB than McNair. You could even make the argument that McNabb wins with his arm, not his legs too. Michael Vick is really the only starting QB in the league that tries to win primarily with his legs, not his arm.

texarg
02-15-2006, 04:14 PM
Because if DC and VY had been the QB's this year at UT, DC would not have started. Face it guys and gals DC played in the WAC. DC was a great QB in that league, but he has had 4 years and that is plenty. If he was so fast and so good he would have been able to make things happen for the Texans. In stead he suffered with brain lock and got sacked a lot. I agree with the coach VY will make things happen at the next level. We can either watch him do it on our team or watch him beat us playing for someone else.

So, if M. Leinart and VY had been the QB's this year at UT (or USC), VY would not have started....(?).
If DC and VY were availables in the same draft, who do you think would be the nr 1? impossible to know. You can say the WAC is weak and UT is in a more competitive league...but that include that VY has a better suporting cast that Carr so is logic to think that is more difficult to put good numbers in Fresno. The league doesnt mean much in this (DC vs VY).
Check the stats of their last year at college and wait for the result of the scouting combine for a fair comp.

BTW : ML is the best QB available in this draft (check the stats...3 Nat Champ games, 2 wins...etc etc).

TheOgre
02-15-2006, 04:16 PM
a majority of the people thought Couch was the right pick. They thought Ryan Leaf would be an NFL Star. A lot of people thought Indy would win the SuperBowl in 2005.

A ton of people have picked Atlanta to go to the Super Bowl the past two years too....

thunderkyss
02-15-2006, 04:17 PM
I would not consider McNair a running QB. Plummer is more of a running QB than McNair. You could even make the argument that McNabb wins with his arm, not his legs too. Michael Vick is really the only starting QB in the league that tries to win primarily with his legs, not his arm.


Exactly, & I see Vince more along the mold of McNabb, than Vick. I think most people are. Hence the reason many people were saying he is what Mike Vick will be.

texarg
02-15-2006, 04:46 PM
Exactly, & I see Vince more along the mold of McNabb, than Vick. I think most people are. Hence the reason many people were saying he is what Mike Vick will be.


I read a lot of "pro VY" posts but this is really strange...

You see Vince along the mold of McNabb???

College stats:
McNabb in 4 years : 1561 running yards and 8389 pass yards.
Young in 3 years : 3127 running yards and 6040 pass yards.
M. Vick in 2 years : 1202 running yards and 3074 pass yards.

As you can see, Young and Vick have a 1/3 Run/pass yard ratio, and McNabb 1/6 (half than VY and MV)......so how can you say that VY is more like McNabb than Vick????

McNabb is a passer Qb with very good legs.
Vick and Young are running QB with averages/good arms.

If you like VY its ok, but dont expect to see him like Mcnabb couse he isnt.

thunderkyss
02-15-2006, 04:58 PM
Check out this thread Texans_Chick's Research (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=17246&highlight=McNabb)

Lots of arguments left and right trying to compare Reggie Bush and Vince Young to a lot of different people.
Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 6’’2” 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs


Daunte Culpepper (last college season) Drafted 11th, 6’4”. 264 lbs:

3690 passing yards
73.63 completion percentage
402 attempts for 296 completions, 9.2 av yards per attempt
28 passing TDs with 7 INTs
141 rushes for 463 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Against the following opponents:

at Louisiana Tech
Eastern Illinois
at Purdue
at Bowling Green
at Toledo
Northern Illinois
at SW Louisiana
Youngstown St.
at Auburn
Ball St.
New Mexico

There were a lot of questions about his development because of his competition--which partially explains his draft position. IIRC, some people thought that the Vikings were reaching picking a QB in the first round because they already had Jeff George and Randall Cunningham.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo.../12/culpepper/

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6’0”, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Akili Smith (last college season), Drafted 3rd, 6’3”, 220 lbs

3763 passing yards
57.95 completion percentage
371 attempts for 215 completion , 10.1 av yards per attempt
32 passing TDs with 9 INTs
82 rushes for 184 yards, 2.2 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

texarg
02-15-2006, 05:03 PM
Check out this thread Texans_Chick's Research (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=17246&highlight=McNabb)

Explain your point...

(....all of this Qbs have something in common: 0 SB!)

CarrIsFine
02-15-2006, 05:16 PM
Dave Landry just said for the NFL he would draft Leinart and Cutler ahead of VY. He said if he was starting a college team he would draft VY first.

A lot of people don't seem to understand that the NFL really is different than college. A players strength that made him a stud in college may not be a critical success factor in the NFL. Bottom line is VY won't be able to shred defenses by himself running, so passing becomes the critical success factor. On that basis Leinart and Cutler are better choices. It will take VY a year just to get used to taking regular snaps/drops.

David Carr was picked number one because he can make all of the throws. Yes, he has other issues to work out, but number one an NFL QB has to be able to make all of the throws.

stevo3883
02-15-2006, 05:27 PM
Dave Landry just said for the NFL he would draft Leinart and Cutler ahead of VY. He said if he was starting a college team he would draft VY first.

A lot of people don't seem to understand that the NFL really is different than college. A players strength that made him a stud in college may not be a critical success factor in the NFL. Bottom line is VY won't be able to shred defenses by himself running, so passing becomes the critical success factor. On that basis Leinart and Cutler are better choices. It will take VY a year just to get used to taking regular snaps/drops.

David Carr was picked number one because he can make all of the throws. Yes, he has other issues to work out, but number one an NFL QB has to be able to make all of the throws.


what if I don't agree that he won't be able to be a very effective runner in the nfl?

and a year just to get used to taking snaps? are you serious? he's been a qb for what 8 years, he knows how to take a freaking snap.


and saying Cutler is a better passer is debateable, and frankly i don't think jay cutler should be in the same breath as leinart or VY as they are two of the best college qb's ive ever seen.

CarrIsFine
02-15-2006, 06:08 PM
what if I don't agree that he won't be able to be a very effective runner in the nfl?

and a year just to get used to taking snaps? are you serious? he's been a qb for what 8 years, he knows how to take a freaking snap.


and saying Cutler is a better passer is debateable, and frankly i don't think jay cutler should be in the same breath as leinart or VY as they are two of the best college qb's ive ever seen.
Well, that is your opinion, and the other is that of a veteran NFL scout that now consults NFL teams/colleges. I don't really know your credentials, so I'll leave it at that.

Yes, I was exaggerating about a year to learn to snap, but the main point is he didn't play in a pro-style offense (see Alex Smith).

stevo3883
02-15-2006, 06:12 PM
Well, that is your opinion, and the other is that of a veteran NFL scout that now consults NFL teams/colleges. I don't really know your credentials, so I'll leave it at that.

Yes, I was exaggerating about a year to learn to snap, but the main point is he didn't play in a pro-style offense (see Alex Smith).


yeah, when I think of pro-style offenses, I think of vanderbilt.

and who is this scout that has Cutler ahead of Young?

CarrIsFine
02-15-2006, 06:34 PM
My bad, the name is Chris Landry. Dave Landry is the stock market guy.

kingdee09
02-15-2006, 07:22 PM
How can you say Young is a better player than Carr when Young hasn't even stepped foot onto an NFL field?

Young produced so much more than Carr in college, Carr only had a few good games in college. VY has taken a team to two championships...VY is a leader and thats exactly what DC isnt. DC has been given 4 years to prove himself as a franchise QB and it still hasnt happend..how long does houston have to wait for him to improve?

Overall VY is a better player than DC whether hes steped on an NFL field or not....VY is the furture for the Texans somethin that DC cant be

Koolbrz
02-15-2006, 08:36 PM
Were's the "it's a team game" mentallity?? If we want to go there, David still hasn't won three in a row. How many games has he thrown more than two touchdowns?? Pro-Bowls?? Offensive MVP-of-the-week?? has he even won one of Howie Long's tough man awards?? Phil Simms' Iron man awards?? a John Madden Turduckin leg?? anything??


Ask me these same questions in about 2-3 yrs. Then i will be able to give you an answer. That is, now that he is going to have much better coaching, better line, possibly a GAMEBREAKER in RB, and an improved defense. You know a defense that will not blow a lead in the last couple of min. of a game. Oh one more thing, I have been saying that it is a team game since i became a member of this MB. Everyone else seems to think that it is DC's fault that we sux, and that VY alone can get us to the superbowl...LMAO...Yeah right!!!

thunderkyss
02-15-2006, 08:52 PM
Explain your point...

(....all of this Qbs have something in common: 0 SB!)

Well, First:

Exactly, & I see Vince more along the mold of McNabb, than Vick. I think most people are. Hence the reason many people were saying he is what Mike Vick will be.

I read a lot of "pro VY" posts but this is really strange...

You see Vince along the mold of McNabb???

College stats:
McNabb in 4 years : 1561 running yards and 8389 pass yards.
Young in 3 years : 3127 running yards and 6040 pass yards.
M. Vick in 2 years : 1202 running yards and 3074 pass yards.

As you can see, Young and Vick have a 1/3 Run/pass yard ratio, and McNabb 1/6 (half than VY and MV)......so how can you say that VY is more like McNabb than Vick????

McNabb is a passer Qb with very good legs.
Vick and Young are running QB with averages/good arms.

If you like VY its ok, but dont expect to see him like Mcnabb couse he isnt.

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 6’’2” 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs

Vince improved, and changed his game...... he became more of a passer, than a runner. He did this by working with McNair in the offseason. I agree he still has problems with his game. I agree he should sit out his first year. But I think he is mature enough, and bright enough to play through it. Yes there will be some losses, but you'll still be able to see his potential everygame.

kingdee09
02-15-2006, 08:58 PM
Ask me these same questions in about 2-3 yrs. Then i will be able to give you an answer. That is, now that he is going to have much better coaching, better line, possibly a GAMEBREAKER in RB, and an improved defense. You know a defense that will not blow a lead in the last couple of min. of a game. Oh one more thing, I have been saying that it is a team game since i became a member of this MB. Everyone else seems to think that it is DC's fault that we sux, and that VY alone can get us to the superbowl...LMAO...Yeah right!!!

VY would probly get us to a super bowl quicker than DC will. Im not saying its 100% DC's fault we suck but it is at least 75-80% why we do. DC has no leadership cant carry the texans to a 3 game win streak he barely got his 2 game winners.

It takes at least 2-3 years for a QB to improve from the start of his rookie season. DC is a 4 year experienced QB that shows no sign of improvment and is a defences favorite target. VY is a leader his teamates trust him and believe in him he can put this team back together plus he can take over a game at all cost. 2 4th quarter comebacks in 2 championship games. VY has probly experienced more than DC has ever had and VY isnt even a pro yet.

So check back with me in 2-3 years when DC is on the bench watching VY take the team to a SB. DC taking Texans to the SB...LMAO...YEAH RIGHT!!!!!