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dat_boy_yec
02-15-2006, 09:18 PM
Young produced so much more than Carr in college, Carr only had a few good games in college. VY has taken a team to two championships...VY is a leader and thats exactly what DC isnt. DC has been given 4 years to prove himself as a franchise QB and it still hasnt happend..how long does houston have to wait for him to improve?

Overall VY is a better player than DC whether hes steped on an NFL field or not....VY is the furture for the Texans somethin that DC cant be

Where's your proof Young produced more than Carr in college. I'm using these stats from Texanchicks research.

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

So excuse my math, but Carr had 4904 total yds. and Young had 4086 total yds. So I don't know where your logic comes from but it would appear Carr produced more than Young. Also if you see the parentheses on Carr he too led a team to a bowl game. Now you don't even know what will happen when Vince hits the field but you're saying he's already better than a four yr. veteran who holds the record for sacks (that's toughness) came in second in rushing for QB's behind only Vick 2 yrs. running (guy can run 2) and keeps coming back for more (that's called commitment) Now is it just me or does anybody see this logic as a little bit flawed.

Koolbrz
02-15-2006, 09:19 PM
VY would probly get us to a super bowl quicker than DC will. Im not saying its 100% DC's fault we suck but it is at least 75-80% why we do. DC has no leadership cant carry the texans to a 3 game win streak he barely got his 2 game winners.

It takes at least 2-3 years for a QB to improve from the start of his rookie season. DC is a 4 year experienced QB that shows no sign of improvment and is a defences favorite target. VY is a leader his teamates trust him and believe in him he can put this team back together plus he can take over a game at all cost. 2 4th quarter comebacks in 2 championship games. VY has probly experienced more than DC has ever had and VY isnt even a pro yet.

So check back with me in 2-3 years when DC is on the bench watching VY take the team to a SB. DC taking Texans to the SB...LMAO...YEAH RIGHT!!!!!


Show me where i said that DC would take us to the superbowl. Second it will take 3-4 yrs for VY to learn how to be an NFL QB. Learn how to read a defense, develop that avg. arm, and we still have to see how he is going to take the pounding NFL defenses are going to put on him. These guys are not 18-20 yr. olds trying to tackle. His teammates are still in school and is going to have to gain his new teammates trust all over again. You can not expect him to do in the NFL what he did in college. At least not right away. You think DC is a target, VY will be more of a target. Simple reason for me saying this. He is a big guy that likes to run ala M. Vick. You see what defense's did to MV this yr. They will pretty much play VY the same way. So if your still around in 2-3 yrs. i will ask you what you think about VY and i will also tell you what i think about DC. In all honesty i would rather face VY 2 times a yr. than have to face RB 2 times a yr. Enough said

Wolf
02-15-2006, 09:21 PM
It is humous the am't of threads on this board that already have either Bush or Young pencilled in as 1) either getting a Super Bowl win within a few years ..or 2) already getting fitted for the HOF

:brickwall

I guess optimism is great...yet if you feel they are going to get one, that means the Texans aren't getting a Super Bowl win..:rolleyes:

Texans_Chick
02-15-2006, 09:30 PM
He is a big guy that likes to run ala M. Vick. You see what defense's did to MV this yr. They will pretty much play VY the same way. So if your still around in 2-3 yrs. i will ask you what you think about VY and i will also tell you what i think about DC. In all honesty i would rather face VY 2 times a yr. than have to face RB 2 times a yr. Enough said

Statistically, VY was a much better passer than MV was in college, and this also considering that he didn't play the 4th quarter of many games.

I researched the stats of various college QBs because people on the MB were blindly throwing up comparisons that I didn't think were terribly apt. Personally, my eyes and the stats tell me that VY is not very similar to any QB that we have seen before. 3000/1000 is sick.

Saw this quote today, and though I am not sure how completely fair this is, I thought it was kinda funny as one of many outta control analogies:

Shannon Sharpe may not be Emeril, but he had food on his mind when discussing the merits of Reggie Bush and Vince Young in the coming NFL draft.

Speaking on his Sirius Satellite Radio show, Sharpe said: "Reggie Bush is a TV dinner. He's already prepared. Just warm him up and let him go.

"Vince Young is a Thanksgiving dinner. You've got to prepare it. Now, when he's prepared? Ooh, boy, are you going to have something nice."

And for the general manager who makes the wrong choice? Heartburn.


Link (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-sp.flipside15feb15,0,7991935.story?coll=bal-sports-featured)

Anyone that says that they know for sure what is gonna happen with these players should be playing the stock market and making big money instead of wasting their time goofing off on a MB. We don't know how they are gonna be for sure in the NFL, we can only postulate outta our posteriors, as we have a great deal of expertise at that particular pastime. Not an insult, just an observation.

:texflag:

Koolbrz
02-15-2006, 09:32 PM
It is humous the am't of threads on this board that already have either Bush or Young pencilled in as 1) either getting a Super Bowl win within a few years ..or 2) already getting fitted for the HOF

:brickwall

I guess optimism is great...yet if you feel they are going to get one, that means the Texans aren't getting a Super Bowl win..:rolleyes:


I'm not putting anyone in the SB or HOF. That is something that they are going to have to earn. For all we know they both blow out there knees and never reach there potential.

Wolf
02-15-2006, 09:38 PM
I'm not putting anyone in the SB or HOF. That is something that they are going to have to earn. For all we know they both blow out there knees and never reach there potential.

oh I wasn't singling you out, just stating general..

Personally I feel If VY were to get drafted.. his development would be stalled in Houston... Why? we dont' have the OL ,TE and #2 WR .. and far from a defense to help carry him to the playoffs ... maybe in 4 years now

Bush.. we have a Run blocking line but teams are going to overload us again with 8 in the box, bush would get yards cuts out Bush's effectiveness (see above)

The Texans made their bed and have to sleep on it... (with the OL and defense in the shape it is in)... will I be happy if we get a sweet deal to trade down.. heck yeah... would I be happy if we took VY or RB... yes, I feel there wasn't a deal good enough for a trade down (I'd want a SD-Giants type deal at least for these hyped up players)

texarg
02-15-2006, 09:45 PM
Overall VY is a better player than DC whether hes steped on an NFL field or not....VY is the furture for the Texans somethin that DC cant be

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:



VY is the furture for the Texans somethin that DC cant be

maybe kubiak doesnt think the same way and give carr a 3 years ext...
and maybe carr still can be the future of texans and VY can be the future of .....(fill in the blank whit any other team).

Koolbrz
02-15-2006, 09:47 PM
Statistically, VY was a much better passer than MV was in college, and this also considering that he didn't play the 4th quarter of many games.

I researched the stats of various college QBs because people on the MB were blindly throwing up comparisons that I didn't think were terribly apt. Personally, my eyes and the stats tell me that VY is not very similar to any QB that we have seen before. 3000/1000 is sick.

Saw this quote today, and though I am not sure how completely fair this is, I thought it was kinda funny as one of many outta control analogies:



Link (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-sp.flipside15feb15,0,7991935.story?coll=bal-sports-featured)

Anyone that says that they know for sure what is gonna happen with these players should be playing the stock market and making big money instead of wasting their time goofing off on a MB. We don't know how they are gonna be for sure in the NFL, we can only postulate outta our posteriors, as we have a great deal of expertise at that particular pastime. Not an insult, just an observation.

:texflag:


You keep comparing college stats. Honestly, what does that mean in the NFL? Nothing. Its a whole different ballgame now. Once they hit the field all those college stats are out the window. The only reason i compare VY to MV is because they are the same type of player. They can both make big plays with there legs and have decent arms. MV's big plays are now few and far between. Defenses have faced him for a few yrs and are containing him now. So when VY hits the field they will more than likely play him the same way. True, we don't know what is going to happen. One thing is for sure though defenses will be ready for him.

Koolbrz
02-15-2006, 10:01 PM
oh I wasn't singling you out, just stating general..

Personally I feel If VY were to get drafted.. his development would be stalled in Houston... Why? we dont' have the OL ,TE and #2 WR .. and far from a defense to help carry him to the playoffs ... maybe in 4 years now

Bush.. we have a Run blocking line but teams are going to overload us again with 8 in the box, bush would get yards cuts out Bush's effectiveness (see above)

The Texans made their bed and have to sleep on it... (with the OL and defense in the shape it is in)... will I be happy if we get a sweet deal to trade down.. heck yeah... would I be happy if we took VY or RB... yes, I feel there wasn't a deal good enough for a trade down (I'd want a SD-Giants type deal at least for these hyped up players)


I agree with most of what you said. I just feel that if we do draft Bush we can use him in more ways than one. You more than likely have heard it all. You know the many ways he can be used. Now, add DD into the mix and i honestly believe that defenses will back off. Hopefully Mathis will get some playing time in the slot along with AJ and if we are lucky, we can maybe add a rookie by the name of Moss. IMO he is very fast and kinda reminds me of S. Smith. Not as strong, but has the big play potential. Now do you really think defenses will stack the line with all that speed on the field. Let me know what you think.

TreWardTxn
02-15-2006, 10:01 PM
If UT had more of a pure QB like David Carr there with Vince, they would have moved Vince over to WR earlier in his career there and we wouldn't even be talking about him as a QB right now.

This is just flat out wrong. You have to remember that they guy redshirted and he practiced during the spring at the position he was slated to play, which was always QB, even when Simms was the starter and Mock looked to be next in line. If Mack did not assure Vince of keeping him at QB during recruitment he would have never committed to Texas, and Bobby Bowden would have (at least) one more NC ring...

texarg
02-15-2006, 10:06 PM
Well, First:


Vince improved, and changed his game...... he became more of a passer, than a runner. He did this by working with McNair in the offseason. I agree he still has problems with his game. I agree he should sit out his first year. But I think he is mature enough, and bright enough to play through it. Yes there will be some losses, but you'll still be able to see his potential everygame.




Personally, I was hoping Vince would make himself eligible for this draft, when you guys were screaming Reggie Bowl.

To me, David Carr is the perfect Quarterback for the Texans. Just like Quincy was perfect for the Cowboys. Talented, mobile, and exciting enough, to keep the fans interested, and happy..... that is until that special QB comes along, and we don't have to give up an arm and a leg to get him. Well, that QB is Vince... Matt's good, but he ain't no Peyton........ not even close, I don't care how NFL ready he is.

Vince, is McNabb, Montana, Bret Favre all rolled into one.

Now, I know some of you hate when we project what we think Vince is going to do in the NFL....... especially, when we say it like it's a fore gone conclussion........

so I'll say it again.

Vince iis McNabb, Montana, & Bret Favre all rolled into one.



interesting but...

McNabb pick 2, Favre 33, Montana 82...
McNabb 0 SB, Favre 1, Montana 4...

maybe we should take a QB in a late round (4 or higher) and Bush with the firts...just an stadistics tough.


if you use the trigonomic function to extract the cosine of the square root of those numbers, mutliplied by each players carrer points, wins, and completion percentage..... it will equal #1 overall.


i did it, and the answer was : never take a QB with the first!...ok i dont like mathematics and maybe its not the correct answer...

but all i say is what stadistics shows : "only" elway and aikman formers QBs picks "1" won a SB...neither montana (#82), favre (#33) or even brady (# 199 overall!!!) was top prospect in their drafts and have GREATS carrers.

if VY became a Texans would be great, he is a great player (no doubt), but its a huge risk take a QB with nr. 1, give him a huge contract and...and we already know whats happens, DC was former nr. 1 , top prospect bla bla bla...and here we are again: with the 1st = the worst team in the league.
We allready have a decent Qb, build something good around him a make a "winner team" not just a winner Qb


As long as your idea doesn't include drafting Bush, I'm with you.



allready have this conversation before... why the change now??


and i still think that if we dont trade down, reggie will be the best player for texans situation right now.

texarg
02-15-2006, 10:21 PM
Anyone that says that they know for sure what is gonna happen with these players should be playing the stock market and making big money instead of wasting their time goofing off on a MB. We don't know how they are gonna be for sure in the NFL, we can only postulate outta our posteriors, as we have a great deal of expertise at that particular pastime. Not an insult, just an observation.

:texflag:

anyone cant talk with yesterday newspaper...its funniest to talk about the future!! :party:

Texans_Chick
02-15-2006, 10:43 PM
You keep comparing college stats. Honestly, what does that mean in the NFL? Nothing. Its a whole different ballgame now. Once they hit the field all those college stats are out the window. The only reason i compare VY to MV is because they are the same type of player. They can both make big plays with there legs and have decent arms. MV's big plays are now few and far between. Defenses have faced him for a few yrs and are containing him now. So when VY hits the field they will more than likely play him the same way. True, we don't know what is going to happen. One thing is for sure though defenses will be ready for him.


All I can do for VY is to quote college stats and try to make projections from that. It is imprecise, to be sure, and stats don't mean everything, but at least from those metrics, Vick and Young don't seem to be the same player.

Young's college stats were much better than Vick's. Notably his throwing stats were better than his.

Young is a bigger player and his running style is much different than Vicks.

I guess you can say that they are comparable because they have more melanin than some.

But I've made a case for why that Vince may project to be a different player than Vick, and you have just repeated what your opinion is by saying that they both can run. That and a nickle will get you laughed out of Starbucks.

I guess because Vick has had a down year, no QB who can throw and run will have success. My logic gland just exploded. :bomb:

TreWardTxn
02-15-2006, 10:48 PM
So, if M. Leinart and VY had been the QB's this year at UT (or USC), VY would not have started....(?).
If DC and VY were availables in the same draft, who do you think would be the nr 1? impossible to know. You can say the WAC is weak and UT is in a more competitive league...but that include that VY has a better suporting cast that Carr so is logic to think that is more difficult to put good numbers in Fresno. The league doesnt mean much in this (DC vs VY).
Check the stats of their last year at college and wait for the result of the scouting combine for a fair comp.

BTW : ML is the best QB available in this draft (check the stats...3 Nat Champ games, 2 wins...etc etc).

People tend to misinterpret the talent situation, so I hope this one brings some clarity to the situation. Everything is relative. It is easy to put up huge numbers with lesser offensive talent against sub-par defensive talent because offense always has the advantage in knowing the play and those (slower) defensive players do not have the ability to disrupt plays as regularly. As far as DC and VY are concerned, VY saw about as many NFL quality defensive players playing against OU the past 2-3 years than DC saw his entire collegiate career. Games against OSU, USC, even A&M and T Tech clearly push him over the top. We constantly hear that the hardest thing about adjusting to the NFL is the speed, and it is undeniable that the Big 12 showcases faster, stronger, quicker, and more complex defenses than the WAC did, regardless of offensive talent...

tsip
02-15-2006, 10:54 PM
If UT had more of a pure QB like David Carr there with Vince, they would have moved Vince over to WR earlier in his career there and we wouldn't even be talking about him as a QB right now.

...your posts always astound me!!...but that's what the future is for, no BS there!!! I'm just wait'in for Carr to show up

TreWardTxn
02-15-2006, 11:10 PM
Where's your proof Young produced more than Carr in college. I'm using these stats from Texanchicks research.

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

So excuse my math, but Carr had 4904 total yds. and Young had 4086 total yds. So I don't know where your logic comes from but it would appear Carr produced more than Young. Also if you see the parentheses on Carr he too led a team to a bowl game. Now you don't even know what will happen when Vince hits the field but you're saying he's already better than a four yr. veteran who holds the record for sacks (that's toughness) came in second in rushing for QB's behind only Vick 2 yrs. running (guy can run 2) and keeps coming back for more (that's called commitment) Now is it just me or does anybody see this logic as a little bit flawed.

I don't mean to be a stickler, but factor in all snaps Young sat out as a result of blowing teams out in the 2nd half and the OC calling nothing but running plays to grind the game out, and you can kinda see the point dude was trying to make...Personally, I think all the talk about numbers makes no sense, because in the end, no one will care what you did in college. This is more about playing style and will to win; I like the guy who turns negative plays to positive and average players to gamers, that's who I want heading my team...

Big B Texan Fan
02-16-2006, 12:39 AM
Holy cow....this thread has like 14 pages.

Nighthawk
02-16-2006, 01:18 AM
I know that DC can be average,

Can he get an Amen? Amen. Of course, DC has a ways to go yet before he gets to average.

Nighthawk
02-16-2006, 01:22 AM
All I can do for VY is to quote college stats and try to make projections from that. It is imprecise, to be sure, and stats don't mean everything, but at least from those metrics, Vick and Young don't seem to be the same player.

Young's college stats were much better than Vick's. Notably his throwing stats were better than his.

Young is a bigger player and his running style is much different than Vicks.

I guess you can say that they are comparable because they have more melanin than some.

But I've made a case for why that Vince may project to be a different player than Vick, and you have just repeated what your opinion is by saying that they both can run. That and a nickle will get you laughed out of Starbucks.

I guess because Vick has had a down year, no QB who can throw and run will have success. My logic gland just exploded. :bomb:

Young is a cross between Big Ben, Favre, Cunningham, and somebody else who doesn't go down easy even when hit by linebackers.

thunderkyss
02-16-2006, 07:09 AM
allready have this conversation before... why the change now??


and i still think that if we dont trade down, reggie will be the best player for texans situation right now.


What change?? I'm still saying take Vince...... but it is hard to argue, when you bring up the facts about other #1 overall QBs... especially this one:

te:
Originally Posted by texarg
and we already know whats happens, DC was former nr. 1 , top prospect bla bla bla...and here we are again: with the 1st = the worst team in the league.


New England also had a "decent" QB...... the dynamics of the team changed when their QB changed.... that's all I'm saying.

Dean 74
02-16-2006, 07:34 AM
did you see the teaser during nbc olympic coverage on the shroud of turin where you can see a faint outline of a #10 jersey?

expwrlifter
02-16-2006, 10:53 AM
Wow,

alot of pages written about this topic.. Whats funny is we have people who say college stats matter and then the dont. The one that is funny is about DC in college and how he would start over VY... Sorry guys dont think he would have... Chance Mock was a great HS QB and was highly recruited. VY outplayed him and the only reason he didnt start ahead of Mock his second year was because he hadnt fine tuned his passing skills. But after talking to alot of coaches there at the spring scrimmage they said it would only be a matter of time before he took over as QB.. VY has the tools to get it done just give him a chance. Also VY throws down hill because he is 6'5. He sees the whole field and not just one guy like some other guy we know of..

As for the stats.. DC played in WAC... look at the record books for QB's and find out who has the QB records for passing... last time I knew of off the top of my head it would be the.... WAC QB's.. and one other guy named.... Klinger... from U of H... and remember he was a hit in college with all those passing stats but remember he played in an offense that made him excel such as the TT QB's... Its crazy to say that DC would have played QB and VY a WR... guys he committed to UT because they gave him the chance to play QB and he beat a pocket QB...

Answer this guys... VY and DC start out as Rookie QB's ... who would you build your team around? Remember DC is going to learn a new offense such as VY will...:spy:

bigTEXan8
02-16-2006, 11:16 AM
Answer this guys... VY and DC start out as Rookie QB's ... who would you build your team around? Remember DC is going to learn a new offense such as VY will...:spy:

I'll sound like a :homer: , but I don't care. I would take Carr, because I would rather have a pocket QB than a scrambler. Not only is VY a scrambler QB, but he's also a zone-read QB, and I just don't think that translates well into the NFL.

tsip
02-16-2006, 11:19 AM
"rather have a pocket QB "

Carr has no clue how to use the pocket!

texarg
02-16-2006, 11:24 AM
Answer this guys... VY and DC start out as Rookie QB's ... who would you build your team around? Remember DC is going to learn a new offense such as VY will...:spy:

no doubt: MATT LEINART

powerfuldragon
02-16-2006, 11:27 AM
"rather have a pocket QB "

Carr has no clue how to use the pocket!

what pocket has he had?

texarg
02-16-2006, 11:29 AM
People tend to misinterpret the talent situation, so I hope this one brings some clarity to the situation. Everything is relative. It is easy to put up huge numbers with lesser offensive talent against sub-par defensive talent because offense always has the advantage in knowing the play and those (slower) defensive players do not have the ability to disrupt plays as regularly. As far as DC and VY are concerned, VY saw about as many NFL quality defensive players playing against OU the past 2-3 years than DC saw his entire collegiate career. Games against OSU, USC, even A&M and T Tech clearly push him over the top. We constantly hear that the hardest thing about adjusting to the NFL is the speed, and it is undeniable that the Big 12 showcases faster, stronger, quicker, and more complex defenses than the WAC did, regardless of offensive talent...


:sarcasm:

again: ML is the best QB available in this draft

texarg
02-16-2006, 11:41 AM
What change?? I'm still saying take Vince...... but it is hard to argue, when you bring up the facts about other #1 overall QBs... especially this one:

Originally Posted by texarg
and we already know whats happens, DC was former nr. 1 , top prospect bla bla bla...and here we are again: with the 1st = the worst team in the league.



New England also had a "decent" QB...... the dynamics of the team changed when their QB changed.... that's all I'm saying.


this means: isnt enough with a QB pick 1 to win games (not to talk about SB). Carr cant do it, VY cant do it, any QB cant. Only Elway and Aikman (formers "qb 1") won a SB and only after they had a great sup cast(def, off, s.teams)

New england change their qb (Drew B) for another taken whit the #199 (Brady) and before this qb change, they build a "team" (solid defense, great specials teams, good OL-WR). they didnt start whit a new qb.

Vinny
02-16-2006, 11:47 AM
this means: isnt enough with a QB pick 1 to win games (not to talk about SB). Carr cant do it, VY cant do it, any QB cant. Only Elway and Aikman (formers "qb 1") won a SB and only after they had a great sup cast(def, off, s.teams) Elway won two Super Bowls in his last years because the team was good enough by then. On the way to those titles he took them to the Super Bowl in his 4th, 5th and 7th seasons....mostly on his back.

New england change their qb (Drew B) for another taken whit the #199 (Brady) and before this qb change, they build a "team" (solid defense, great specials teams, good OL-WR). they didnt start whit a new qb.They tried to from what I can see. They drafted Drew Bledsoe first overall. He never lived up to his pick and when Brady took over it was all over for Drew in NE.

bigTEXan8
02-16-2006, 11:52 AM
"rather have a pocket QB "

Carr has no clue how to use the pocket!

Not after fours years of having his *** handed to him and no team to help him. DC would have been "pocket QB" if it wasn't for the lack a team, but I still think that DC could be a "pocket QB." Besides, that's not the question. If both DC and VY came up at the same time, I'd take DC since that I think he has a stronger arm, would be a better leader. This decision has nothing to do with what Carr has done so far into his career, but looking at what DC and VY have done in their college careers and coming out at the same time, I would still select DC.

CarrIsFine
02-16-2006, 11:53 AM
People tend to misinterpret the talent situation, so I hope this one brings some clarity to the situation. Everything is relative. It is easy to put up huge numbers with lesser offensive talent against sub-par defensive talent because offense always has the advantage in knowing the play and those (slower) defensive players do not have the ability to disrupt plays as regularly. As far as DC and VY are concerned, VY saw about as many NFL quality defensive players playing against OU the past 2-3 years than DC saw his entire collegiate career. Games against OSU, USC, even A&M and T Tech clearly push him over the top. We constantly hear that the hardest thing about adjusting to the NFL is the speed, and it is undeniable that the Big 12 showcases faster, stronger, quicker, and more complex defenses than the WAC did, regardless of offensive talent...
I would rather not harp on college stats, but since you don't care to do any research, here are two interesting games from Carr's senior year against the 13th and 14th rated pass defenses in the country:

Oregon State: 340 yds, 4 TD, 0 INT

Michigan State: 531 yds, 4 TD, 2 INT

870 YDS & 8 TDs against 2 top 15 passing defenses? Doesn't seem to agree with your theory.

OzzO
02-16-2006, 12:04 PM
Can he get an Amen? Amen. Of course, DC has a ways to go yet before he gets to average.

2005 - 20th in passer rating (http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2005/regular)
2004 - 16th in passer rating (http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2004/regular)
2003 - 29th in passer rating (http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2003/regular)

So, yeah - stats can mislead and don't tell the whole story.... and not sure what average he needs to get to, but he was in the average range of passer rating in 2004 so, he "got there" with that. Interesting he was closer to the middle in the '05 year than '03.

Anyway.

expwrlifter
02-16-2006, 12:56 PM
BigTexan,
Hey to tell you this but you said VY is a zone-read QB...

What do you think Cover 2 is...it is a zone coverage.. most teams play these when they are not blitzing and then when they do they go to Man or Cover 1 as we call it.. Why do you think the Cowboys get burnt all the time they play cover 2 alot. (Redskin Game MNF).

Can someone find out who the Oilers had to choose from in the "Air" McNair Draft? If I am not mistaken I think everyone in houston was excited about having that Different style QB..:redtowel:

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 01:20 PM
The one that is funny is about DC in college and how he would start over VY... Sorry guys dont think he would have...

I can see someone thinking either way. People shouldn't treat it as fact either way though.

Chance Mock was a great HS QB and was highly recruited.

And he was a mediocre college QB so how highly recruited he was is irrelevant.

VY outplayed him and the only reason he didnt start ahead of Mock his second year was because he hadnt fine tuned his passing skills.

Translation for those not trying to give benefit to VY--VY would have started over Mock his second year but the coaches didn't think his passing was good enough yet, i.e. he hadn't overall outplayed Mock yet.

But after talking to alot of coaches there at the spring scrimmage they said it would only be a matter of time before he took over as QB.

Relative merits for who is a better pro-prospect now aside, I find that to be a dubious assertion. Can you think of any college QB's running on pace for nearly 5000 yds of passing 48 TD's and 9 INT's that have ever been benched? I am not even saying by this that VY would not have been a better QB at that point--just that the natural inclination of most coaches is (a) toward a pocket passer and (b) to ride the pony they are on unless it is kicking them off. Mack Brown's actions as you describe them in keeping an out played Mock starting and trying to fit him originally to a different O system support those points. Many a better QB has sat on the bench behind someone they are better than--recent examples Roethlisberger on the bench until Maddox injured, Brady on the bench until Bledsoe injured. Read this how it is intended, as a reality check, not as a knock on VY at all.

thunderkyss
02-16-2006, 01:32 PM
this means: isnt enough with a QB pick 1 to win games (not to talk about SB). Carr cant do it, VY cant do it, any QB cant. Only Elway and Aikman (formers "qb 1") won a SB and only after they had a great sup cast(def, off, s.teams)

New england change their qb (Drew B) for another taken whit the #199 (Brady) and before this qb change, they build a "team" (solid defense, great specials teams, good OL-WR). they didnt start whit a new qb.

What point are you trying to argue??

I'm not saying Draft Vince, becuase he'll take us to the superbowl. I'm saying Draft Vince, because I want to build around Vince. David Carr was not the guy I wanted Houston to draft........ I've supported him through his first four years, I even have a Carr Jersey... But, I'd rather have Vince Young as the quarterback for this team, than David Carr.

& FYI, Brady was sacked 41 times in 2001, in 14 games
31 times in 2002, in 16 games
32 times in 2003, in 16 games
26 times in 2004, in 16 games
26 times in 2005, in 16 games
so it's not like they had a good O-Line, and just plugged Brady in there... I'm pretty sure, they had no idea he would take them to the SuperBowl that year, and I seriously doubt he was brought in to replace Bledsoe.

As another FYI..... in the two games Bledsoe played in 2001, he was sacked 5 times....... about 2.5 times per game. Brady got sacked 2.9 times per game, so it's not like the team all of a sudden got better....... he was just able to get better results with the same team that Drew couldn't.

and something I thought interesting....... they finished 5-11 in 2000.

they won the SuperBowl in 2001.

expwrlifter
02-16-2006, 02:03 PM
infant,
to answer your question...lets see...

T. Chang (Haw) Wac
T. Rattay (LT) Wac
same conference as DC

D. Klinger (UH)
K. Klingsbury (TT)
B.J. Symmons (TT)-> think he had a tryout with the TEXANS
C. Redman
M. Applewhite
A. Smith
R. Leaf-> he was a winner projected better than Manning even think he had better stats then Manning... but I think he lacked what people called leadership qualities...They kept saying though he would turn it around because he had the skills for what it took ...:ok:

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 03:01 PM
infant,

Pathetic buddy, really pathetic.

to answer your question...lets see...

Try going back and reading the question more slowly--you might even follow along with your finger while you sound it out--the question asked for guys who were BENCHED while on pace for a season as described.

Got that now? :ok:

stevo3883
02-16-2006, 03:26 PM
If UT had more of a pure QB like David Carr there with Vince, they would have moved Vince over to WR earlier in his career there and we wouldn't even be talking about him as a QB right now.

infantrycat-

is this the question you're still referencing ?

he said if texas had a "pure qb like carr" as in pocket passer during vince's redshirt year, the horns wouldve moved vy to wr.

and i said they DID have a "pure qb", Chance Mock, during vys redshirt freshman year, and mock started the first 4 games and finished the season with 1300 yards 15 td's 2 ints. hardly "mediocre" as you put it.

and vince showed enough to be put in the starting lineup as a freshman- i dont know where you got the "2nd year" stuff from, this was his first eligible year.

so either I'm really confused or you're misreading mork's statement. i must be missing something here

texarg
02-16-2006, 03:30 PM
What point are you trying to argue??

I'm not saying Draft Vince, becuase he'll take us to the superbowl. I'm saying Draft Vince, because I want to build around Vince. David Carr was not the guy I wanted Houston to draft........ I've supported him through his first four years, I even have a Carr Jersey... But, I'd rather have Vince Young as the quarterback for this team, than David Carr.

& FYI, Brady was sacked 41 times in 2001, in 14 games
31 times in 2002, in 16 games
32 times in 2003, in 16 games
26 times in 2004, in 16 games
26 times in 2005, in 16 games
so it's not like they had a good O-Line, and just plugged Brady in there... I'm pretty sure, they had no idea he would take them to the SuperBowl that year, and I seriously doubt he was brought in to replace Bledsoe.

As another FYI..... in the two games Bledsoe played in 2001, he was sacked 5 times....... about 2.5 times per game. Brady got sacked 2.9 times per game, so it's not like the team all of a sudden got better....... he was just able to get better results with the same team that Drew couldn't.

and something I thought interesting....... they finished 5-11 in 2000.

they won the SuperBowl in 2001.

Like i said: they didnt start whit a new qb....


"...Texans were one of only six teams last season to boast a 3,000-yard passer, 1,000-yard rusher and 1,000-yard receiver. But Houston also allowed 49 sacks in 2004 behind a revamped offensive line."

(http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=1769)

"Carr was supposed to have endured the worst of the punishment at the hands of defensive linemen in his rookie season, when a patchwork line allowed a league-record 76 sacks. The O-line did make strides in 2003, allowing less than half as many sacks as it had the previous season. But personnel types around the AFC generally believed it to be a weak unit still in need of plenty of work."
(http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/AFC/AFC+South/Houston/Features/2004/wilkening111804.htm)

"...the Texans have surrendered a league-worst 55 sacks. Last year, they were 26th in the NFL with 49 sacks allowed. Houston already has a good young back in Dominick Davis, and a solid 26 year old quarterback David Carr, who'd be able to help the team even more if he wasn't on his back every other play. ." (" (http://blogs.foxsports.com/JordanSchwartz/2005/12/11/Texans_Dont_Need_Bush)


This are just three of many reports about the same...and makes your comp. Brady´s OL vs Carr´OL nonsense.

If you supported Carr without an OL for 4 years, then in 4 years your post will be : " VY was not the guy I wanted Houston to draft........ I've supported him through his first four years, I even have a VY Jersey... But bla bla bla"
becouse without a decent OL there is no QB who can play in the NFL.

And thats extacly my point. Build and OL whit Carr, he cant prove his value couse he hasnt the chance to do it...so trade down or draft Bush not a QB.

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 03:51 PM
infantrycat-

is this the question you're still referencing ?

so either I'm really confused or you're misreading mork's statement. i must be missing something here

Your confused and I am referencing my question above in relation to expwrlifter's assertion that VY would have beat DC out of a starting job.

bklatch
02-16-2006, 04:08 PM
Ok guys and gals again David Carr would have never started ahead of Vince at any level. David Carr is not 1/10 the athlete that Vince Young is and David Carr might have found himself as a WR had they ever been on the same team.

I was a college coach in another life and the difference in playing for a WAC team vs one of the major conferences is night and day. Very rarely does a player come out of one of the minor conferences and have success at QB in the NFL.

David has done a good job in kicking off the team, but he is not the answer and never will be. In saying that I don't mean he does not have talent. He does and deserves to be in the NFL. What I am saying is the VY has special talent and hopefully talent that take the Texans to another level.

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 05:28 PM
I was a college coach in another life and the difference in playing for a WAC team vs one of the major conferences is night and day. Very rarely does a player come out of one of the minor conferences and have success at QB in the NFL.

Really? Maybe it is just you consider everything except the WAC a major conference.

Signed,
Ben Roethlisberger--MAC (Miami (OH))
Matt Hasselbeck--ACC (Boston College)
Mark Bulger--Big East (West Virginia)
Byron Leftwich--Conference USA (Marshall)
Jake Delhomme--Sun Belt (LA-Lafayette)
Kurt Warner--? (Northern Iowa)
Kelly Holcomb--Sun Belt (Middle TN State)
Donovan McNabb--Big East (Syracuse)
Steve McNair--? (Alcorn)
Brett Favre--Conference USA (Southern Miss)

stevo3883
02-16-2006, 06:30 PM
Really? Maybe it is just you consider everything except the WAC a major conference.

Signed,
Ben Roethlisberger--MAC (Miami (OH))
Matt Hasselbeck--ACC (Boston College)
Mark Bulger--Big East (West Virginia)
Byron Leftwich--Conference USA (Marshall)
Jake Delhomme--Sun Belt (LA-Lafayette)
Kurt Warner--? (Northern Iowa)
Kelly Holcomb--Sun Belt (Middle TN State)
Donovan McNabb--Big East (Syracuse)
Steve McNair--? (Alcorn)
Brett Favre--Conference USA (Southern Miss)

the big east and the acc are bcs conferences. teams like miami, florida state, vatech...

Maddict5
02-16-2006, 06:31 PM
and with that-all went quiet on the southern front

expwrlifter
02-16-2006, 08:01 PM
Mad,
Do you think DC would start over VY if they were at the same college?

And to infantry didnt mean to type infant and mean it that way was trying to type fast.. WHy do you think DC will be the leader of this team? To me he kind of reminds me of Ryan Leaf..

bklatch
02-16-2006, 08:06 PM
Really? Maybe it is just you consider everything except the WAC a major conference.

Signed,
Ben Roethlisberger--MAC (Miami (OH))
Matt Hasselbeck--ACC (Boston College)
Mark Bulger--Big East (West Virginia)
Byron Leftwich--Conference USA (Marshall)
Jake Delhomme--Sun Belt (LA-Lafayette)
Kurt Warner--? (Northern Iowa)
Kelly Holcomb--Sun Belt (Middle TN State)
Donovan McNabb--Big East (Syracuse)
Steve McNair--? (Alcorn)
Brett Favre--Conference USA (Southern Miss)

Well Mister smartry at least mine is an educated opinion rather than a reactionary comment. Ok let's look at the list above. 5 of them played in 2nd tier conferences and went to the Super Bowl. Of all the teams in the NFL that is a very low percentage considering that they all went there over many years. My argument stands that very few second tier conference guys actually excel in the NFL. David had his chance and is not the answer.

Why not cut our losses now and build a team around a winner and a leader? Teams follow leaders and we need one.

bklatch
02-16-2006, 08:10 PM
Mad,
Do you think DC would start over VY if they were at the same college?

And to infantry didnt mean to type infant and mean it that way was trying to type fast.. WHy do you think DC will be the leader of this team? To me he kind of reminds me of Ryan Leaf..

Of course he would not have. I have never seen so many uneducated football fans in one place in my life. David carr would not have beaten out Major Applewhite. Big Boy football is hard!!

expwrlifter
02-16-2006, 08:12 PM
bk
i agree with you in DC had his chance even though he didnt have the right tools around him if he was a great player like he was supposed to be then he could have gotten us somewhere ....

People still have answered this question in why dont we see this team as rebuilding and what is the difference in having DC and VY learn the same system at the same time... Even read somewhere today that the Texans are considering it..

bklatch
02-16-2006, 08:28 PM
bk
i agree with you in DC had his chance even though he didnt have the right tools around him if he was a great player like he was supposed to be then he could have gotten us somewhere ....

People still have answered this question in why dont we see this team as rebuilding and what is the difference in having DC and VY learn the same system at the same time... Even read somewhere today that the Texans are considering it..


The answer is you are correct. Why not let VY learn the new system. He is someone who will work harder and make everyone around him better just as he has all his life. DC is all about DC. VY is all about the W's he is all about winning and will do what it takes to get there.

Can you guys imagine someone giving you the keys to the most incredible car you could ever imagine? The only problem is that if you take it, your every move will be watched. If you so much as scratch it you will be chastized for even thinking you could drive such a car.

That is what it is like to be a NFL QB especially in your home town. DC has wrecked the car. VY would win the race.

It is all about having "IT" and VY has "IT"

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 08:31 PM
Well Mister smartry at least mine is an educated opinion rather than a reactionary comment.

Your missing an un--take a guess where it goes.

Ok let's look at the list above. 5 of them played in 2nd tier conferences and went to the Super Bowl. Of all the teams in the NFL that is a very low percentage considering that they all went there over many years. My argument stands that very few second tier conference guys actually excel in the NFL.

You do realize only 25 QB's ever have won SB's right? In just recent years they include Favre, Roethlisberger and Warner, heck lets throw in Dilfer since that is your definition of success (where'd he go to school--c'mon you can say it) with SB losers including Gannon, Delhomme, McNair (league MVP) and McNabb. Let's see in the past 10 SB's 4 QB's from lessor conferences have won and 3 have won from top tier conferences. Nope, still looks like you need the un.

This is a classic example of making something up to deride someone on behalf of a replacement. Fine VY is great and would be good with the Texans. There is no reason to make up silly stuff to run down DC--there are plenty of legitimate reasons to critique him.

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 08:34 PM
the big east and the acc are bcs conferences. teams like miami, florida state, vatech...

So BCS conference membership is the definition of a major conference. Glad we got that cleared up so now we know both DC and VY played in major conferences (WAC is a BCS conference by the way).

bklatch
02-16-2006, 08:39 PM
Your missing an un--take a guess where it goes.



You do realize only 25 QB's ever have won SB's right? In just recent years they include Favre, Roethlisberger and Warner, heck lets throw in Dilfer since that is your definition of success (where'd he go to school--c'mon you can say it) with SB losers including Gannon, Delhomme, McNair (league MVP) and McNabb. Let's see in the past 10 SB's 4 QB's from lessor conferences have won and 3 have won from top tier conferences. Nope, still looks like you need the un.

That is a great diatribe. Based on all the QB's that have excelled in the league a very low percentage have come from tier 2 conferences. DC has not been a winner at this level and he won't be a winner at this level. It sucks but it is true. The Texans made a mistake. Let it go man and you will sleep better.

Did you ever play the game or are you a book worm full of stats and other usless information?

stevo3883
02-16-2006, 08:43 PM
So BCS conference membership is the definition of a major conference. Glad we got that cleared up so now we know both DC and VY played in major conferences (WAC is a BCS conference by the way).


lol no it isnt

Runner
02-16-2006, 08:44 PM
Diatribe? Talk about projection!

bklatch
02-16-2006, 08:45 PM
So BCS conference membership is the definition of a major conference. Glad we got that cleared up so now we know both DC and VY played in major conferences (WAC is a BCS conference by the way).

The WAC is a tier 2 conference! I never said anything about the BSC.

stevo3883
02-16-2006, 08:47 PM
A bcs conference is a conf in which a team is guranteed a BCS bowl by being named the champ of that conference.

Rose- big 10 vs pac-10
fiesta- big XII
orange- ACC
sugar- SEC
Big-East champ counts as an at-large

Kaiser Toro
02-16-2006, 08:47 PM
Based on all the QB's that have excelled in the league a very low percentage have come from tier 2 conferences.

We either are going to need you to qualify this or provide some data to support these statements. I will be on your side all day long about Carr, but give us something to base these claims.

Kaiser Toro
02-16-2006, 08:49 PM
A bcs conference is a conf in which a team is guranteed a BCS bowl by being named the champ of that conference.

Rose- big 10 vs pac-10
fiesta- big XII
orange- ACC
sugar- SEC
Big-East champ counts as an at-large

What about Notre Dame?

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 08:49 PM
A bcs conference is a conf in which a team is guranteed a BCS bowl by being named the champ of that conference.

Rose- big 10 vs pac-10
fiesta- big XII
orange- ACC
sugar- SEC
Big-East champ counts as an at-large

Funny, the people at the BCS think it is. Maybe you can find an e-mail to correct them here: BCS (http://www.bcsfootball.org/index2.cfm?page=conferences) I understand the definition you are running off of though. Realistically, even the BCS conferences as you define them are not all equal so it really doesn't identify what qualifies as a major or minor conference.

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 08:51 PM
The WAC is a tier 2 conference! I never said anything about the BSC.

Check back on my post about the BCS and you will find it was quoting and responding to stevo.

expwrlifter
02-16-2006, 08:52 PM
believe it or not Notre Dame is considered a Big East at times for Bowls..Weird I must say..

stevo3883
02-16-2006, 08:53 PM
Funny, the people at the BCS think it is. Maybe you can find an e-mail to correct them here: BCS (http://www.bcsfootball.org/index2.cfm?page=conferences)


"The BCS, which runs through the 2005 regular season and 2006 bowl season, consists of the Rose Bowl, Nokia Sugar Bowl, FedEx Orange Bowl and the Tostitos Fiesta Bowl. Conferences with automatic berths include the Atlantic Coast, Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-10 and the Southeastern Conferences."

http://espn.go.com/abcsports/bcs/about/

Runner
02-16-2006, 08:54 PM
Funny, the people at the BCS think it is. Maybe you can find an e-mail to correct them here: BCS (http://www.bcsfootball.org/index2.cfm?page=conferences)

Wow man, you got that bogus web site up fast! It almost looks official! Will you stop at nothing to prove your point? :highfive:

stevo3883
02-16-2006, 08:54 PM
Funny, the people at the BCS think it is. Maybe you can find an e-mail to correct them here: BCS (http://www.bcsfootball.org/index2.cfm?page=conferences)


that is the only website you will find that says the WAC is a bcs conference. that site also says the sun belt and MAC are bcs conferences as well.

im sorry but they arent a part of the "bowl championship series" their conf winner is not guranteed a bowl game

bklatch
02-16-2006, 08:55 PM
[QUOTE=bklatch]Based on all the QB's that have excelled in the league a very low percentage have come from tier 2 conferences. QUOTE]

We either are going to need you to qualify this or provide some data to support these statements. I will be on your side all day long about Carr, but give us something to base these claims.


It is very simple. Of all the QB's that have played in the NFL a very low percentage has come from the tier 2 conferences. If you read my posts, my point was that DC came from a tier 2 conference. He had his chance and now it is time to move on.

Kaiser Toro
02-16-2006, 08:55 PM
believe it or not Notre Dame is considered a Big East at times for Bowls..Weird I must say..

Not in football, but yes in basketball.

BCS, Notre Dame retool deal Irish will be treated more like any other school

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/0428bcsirish0428.html

stevo3883
02-16-2006, 08:56 PM
Not in football, but yes in basketball.

BCS, Notre Dame retool deal Irish will be treated more like any other school

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/0428bcsirish0428.html

its kind of screwy because notre dame gets put first in line for the 4 "at-large" births.if they meet their criteria (i think its ranked in the top 10 or something like that) they automatically make a bcs bowl.

what can i say, they really like notre dame

Kaiser Toro
02-16-2006, 08:58 PM
It is very simple. Of all the QB's that have played in the NFL a very low percentage has come from the tier 2 conferences. If you read my posts, my point was that DC came from a tier 2 conference. He had his chance and now it is time to move on.

I understand that you believe that. How did you come to that conclusion?

Once again I agree that DC should have been moved, but I am stuck with what we got.

stevo3883
02-16-2006, 09:01 PM
Wow man, you got that bogus web site up fast! It almost looks official! Will you stop at nothing to prove your point? :highfive:


its not bogus but its deceiving. Those conferences receive a portion of the money collected by the whole BCS system, but they arent a part of the bowl championship series.

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 09:03 PM
that is the only website you will find that says the WAC is a bcs conference. that site also says the sun belt and MAC are bcs conferences as well.

im sorry but they arent a part of the "bowl championship series" their conf winner is not guranteed a bowl game

stevo--I think we are hung up on a nomenclature thing. The conferences you are talking about have automatic bowl spots and are commonly referred to as the BCS conferences, but there are other conferences which are BCS conferences as stated on their website. It really doesn't matter anyway--the issue is picking some arbitrary 1st tier and 2nd tier criteria for the other discussion.

bklatch
02-16-2006, 09:04 PM
its kind of screwy because notre dame gets put first in line for the 4 "at-large" births.if they meet their criteria (i think its ranked in the top 10 or something like that) they automatically make a bcs bowl.

what can i say, they really like notre dame


Let me end this nonesense with this. VY beat Michigan, OU, Ohio State at night in the shoe and USC in the Rose Bowl. DC beat Wyoming! Wow who would you rather have leading your team? Vince beat the best Carr did not even beat the rest.

Big Boy Football takes leaders VY is a leader.

Runner
02-16-2006, 09:05 PM
its not bogus but its deceiving. Those conferences receive a portion of the money collected by the whole BCS system, but they arent a part of the bowl championship series.

I didn't look this up, but I think if a team from one of these conferences qualifies with a good enough record, etc, then they could play in a BCS Bowl game. I think people are thinking that a conference having an automatic berth is the sole definition of a BCS conference.

bklatch
02-16-2006, 09:05 PM
I understand that you believe that. How did you come to that conclusion?

Once again I agree that DC should have been moved, but I am stuck with what we got.


look it up if i am wrong I will say i am, but i don't think i will have to..

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 09:07 PM
bklatch--to make myself clear, I am not arguing with your opinion or conclusion on DC as to what the Texans should do. IMO your assertion about non-major conferences not yielding successful NFL QB's is however in error. Saying that doesn't make DC any better a QB--they are or should be two separate subjects. In other words I disagree with your general rule. If you specifically don't like one non-major QB, DC, that's fine.

stevo3883
02-16-2006, 09:07 PM
I didn't look this up, but I think if a team from one of these conferences qualifies with a good enough record, etc, then they could play in a BCS Bowl game. I think people are thinking that a conference having an automatic berth is the sole definition of a BCS conference.


its based on ranking, thats how Utah managed to make it in. and Utah is the only non-bcs team to make a bcs game.

thunderkyss
02-16-2006, 09:13 PM
Like i said: they didnt start whit a new qb....


"...Texans were one of only six teams last season to boast a 3,000-yard passer, 1,000-yard rusher and 1,000-yard receiver. But Houston also allowed 49 sacks in 2004 behind a revamped offensive line."

Last year, they were 26th in the NFL with 49 sacks allowed. Houston already has a good young back in Dominick Davis, and a solid 26 year old quarterback David Carr, who'd be able to help the team even more if he wasn't on his back every other play. ."


This are just three of many reports about the same...and makes your comp. Brady´s OL vs Carr´OL nonsense.


And thats extacly my point. Build and OL whit Carr, he cant prove his value couse he hasnt the chance to do it...so trade down or draft Bush not a QB.


Are you reading this stuff as you type?? Houston 26th in the league, giving up 49 sacks doesn't compare to New England who gave up 46 sacks(Bledsoe 5, Brady 41) the year they won the super bowl??


You can't see the comparison there??

expwrlifter
02-16-2006, 09:18 PM
Did anyone read the article Richard Justice wrote today? It said that he is hearing they might draft VY over RB..

DO you honestly think the FO will turn on the fans...knowing this city wants a change... heck look at Steve Franchise.. he was supposed to be the next superstar and he needed a change.. Thats what I think DC needs a change..

One thing about the article I noticed though is that they say they will keep DC and get his trade value up which makes sense.. and let him groom VY..It may even turn up the heat on DC.. he needs something because he has gotten too comfortable..

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 09:29 PM
This was Justice's opinion on that:

This would be the worst of all possible decisions. Take Reggie. Take Vince. But if you take Vince, don't subject to David Carr to what would come after that.

From his blog (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2006/02/i_have_opinions.html)

thunderkyss
02-16-2006, 09:41 PM
I know chances are slimmer than slim, that Houston will draft Vince....

But having him here @ the same time as Carr, doesn't mean Carr will be Grooming him. Carr can't groom anyone at this point. That's part of the problem. He has nothing to teach anyone.

Kubiak & Sherman will be doing the Grooming.

TreWardTxn
02-16-2006, 09:45 PM
Elway won two Super Bowls in his last years because the team was good enough by then. On the way to those titles he took them to the Super Bowl in his 4th, 5th and 7th seasons....mostly on his back.

They tried to from what I can see. They drafted Drew Bledsoe first overall. He never lived up to his pick and when Brady took over it was all over for Drew in NE.

Man, people forget so quickly...Bledose did go to a Superbowl, he did have a few double digit win seasons as a QB before he was wrecked and replaced by Brady. He had certainly lost a lot of his luster by then and was never able to reguide his team deep into the playoffs, but the point is that once that other guy came off the bench, for whatever reason the line somehow managed to block "better", the running backs averaged more yards, receivers caught more passes, and the defense was able to squeeze teams once they got the lead. That had nothing to do with coaching, it was having the right guy leading the system that gained the trust and confidence of his teammates by being able to engineer positive plays. At the end of the day, that is what offensive football is about, moving the ball; I don't care if it's from a pocket, or not, as long as the job gets done...

Kaiser Toro
02-16-2006, 09:47 PM
Man, people forget so quickly...Bledose did go to a Superbowl, he did have a few double digit win seasons as a QB before he was wrecked and replaced by Brady. He had certainly lost a lot of his luster by then and was never able to reguide his team deep into the playoffs, but the point is that once that other guy came off the bench, for whatever reason the line somehow managed to block "better", the running backs averaged more yards, receivers caught more passes, and the defense was able to squeeze teams once they got the lead. That had nothing to do with coaching, it was having the right guy leading the system that gained the trust and confidence of his teammates by being able to engineer positive plays. At the end of the day, that is what offensive football is about, moving the ball; I don't care if it's from a pocket, or not, as long as the job gets done...

Now that is a quality post in an awful thread. You are the thread slayer, bringing light when there was none. :superman:

TreWardTxn
02-16-2006, 09:52 PM
I would rather not harp on college stats, but since you don't care to do any research, here are two interesting games from Carr's senior year against the 13th and 14th rated pass defenses in the country:

Oregon State: 340 yds, 4 TD, 0 INT

Michigan State: 531 yds, 4 TD, 2 INT

870 YDS & 8 TDs against 2 top 15 passing defenses? Doesn't seem to agree with your theory.

I didn't say anything about him not playing against top 20 defenses, remember the conversation was never about stats; I said he didn't play against any bonafide NFL talent, and if you can find the guys on either of those teams that gets any PT in the League, I'd like you to post them up for me...

thunderkyss
02-16-2006, 09:53 PM
Man, people forget so quickly...Bledose did go to a Superbowl, he did have a few double digit win seasons as a QB before he was wrecked and replaced by Brady. He had certainly lost a lot of his luster by then and was never able to reguide his team deep into the playoffs, but the point is that once that other guy came off the bench, for whatever reason the line somehow managed to block "better", the running backs averaged more yards, receivers caught more passes, and the defense was able to squeeze teams once they got the lead. That had nothing to do with coaching, it was having the right guy leading the system that gained the trust and confidence of his teammates by being able to engineer positive plays. At the end of the day, that is what offensive football is about, moving the ball; I don't care if it's from a pocket, or not, as long as the job gets done...


Also, Bledsoe was sitting pretty, waiting to retire in New England. Tom Brady wasn't brought in to replace Drew, he got his shot when Drew got hurt. If drew never got hurt, we'd never know who Tom Brady was.

Runner
02-16-2006, 10:02 PM
its based on ranking, thats how Utah managed to make it in. and Utah is the only non-bcs team to make a bcs game.

Utah was who I was thinking of - but if they are non-BCS, how were they allowed in the bowl?

I really don't care that much - it was just an interesting debate that caught my eye.

Big B Texan Fan
02-16-2006, 10:21 PM
Also, Bledsoe was sitting pretty, waiting to retire in New England. Tom Brady wasn't brought in to replace Drew, he got his shot when Drew got hurt. If drew never got hurt, we'd never know who Tom Brady was.
On another note with Brady and Bledsoe. The same O-line that sent Bledsoe to the ER with bleeding in his lungs (giving up sax) as well as got the Pats to a 1-4 start was the same O-line that sent Brady, Pats to the Super Bowl in the same season.

TreWardTxn
02-16-2006, 10:22 PM
Really? Maybe it is just you consider everything except the WAC a major conference.

Signed,
Ben Roethlisberger--MAC (Miami (OH))
Matt Hasselbeck--ACC (Boston College)
Mark Bulger--Big East (West Virginia)
Byron Leftwich--Conference USA (Marshall)
Jake Delhomme--Sun Belt (LA-Lafayette)
Kurt Warner--? (Northern Iowa)
Kelly Holcomb--Sun Belt (Middle TN State)
Donovan McNabb--Big East (Syracuse)
Steve McNair--? (Alcorn)
Brett Favre--Conference USA (Southern Miss)

You know what? Let's take your list, and I'll even concede the point that small conference guys can have success, in fact, you left Chad Pennington out of there, he was a good QB before his shoulder was shredded...But the one thing that is almost for certain on that list is that, by those guys 4th years in the league they had been pegged as absolute team leaders, Ben and Leftwich are the only ones who haven't been in the league that long, but we have already seen the IT from both of them, Leftwich showed it all the way from college, displaying that kind of heart does[I] matter. Every guy on that list was/is pegged as a leader; Delhomme was handpicked by John Fox because he saw his fire and passion for winning at NO, even though he was a backup. Holcomb replaced Tim Couch (former top pick) in Cleveland, and the general feeling was that he had won the locker room before ever winning the starting spot. I think Bulger just got the nod over Warner because he was younger, uninjured and Martz's pet project, but Favre, McNabb, and Big Ben? Even if they didn't have great stats, they were all undisputed leaders of their teams [I]early in their careers, and it is simply disturbing that after four years in the league, I can not say that (no one can) about Carr; it is the missing element of his game that there is no coaching or acquisitional remedy for...

thunderkyss
02-16-2006, 10:25 PM
Bulger doesn't have it....... Kurt lost it, but Bulger ain't got it..... he ain't going nowhere with that team.




Mark my word.

Big B Texan Fan
02-16-2006, 10:27 PM
You know what? Let's take your list, and I'll even concede the point that small conference guys can have success, in fact, you left Chad Pennington out of there, he was a good QB before his shoulder was shredded...But the one thing that is almost for certain on that list is that, by those guys 4th years in the league they had been pegged as absolute team leaders, Ben and Leftwich are the only ones who haven't been in the league that long, but we have already seen the IT from both of them, Leftwich showed it all the way from college, displaying that kind of heart does[I] matter. Every guy on that list was/is pegged as a leader; Delhomme was handpicked by John Fox because he saw his fire and passion for winning at NO, even though he was a backup. Holcomb replaced Tim Couch (former top pick) in Cleveland, and the general feeling was that he had won the locker room before ever winning the starting spot. I think Bulger just got the nod over Warner because he was younger, uninjured and Martz's pet project, but Favre, McNabb, and Big Ben? Even if they didn't have great stats, they were all undisputed leaders of their teams [I]early in their careers, and it is simply disturbing that after four years in the league, I can not say that (no one can) about Carr; it is the missing element of his game that there is no coaching or acquisitional remedy for...
Well put:ok:

TreWardTxn
02-16-2006, 10:43 PM
On another note with Brady and Bledsoe. The same O-line that sent Bledsoe to the ER with bleeding in his lungs (giving up sax) as well as got the Pats to a 1-4 start was the same O-line that sent Brady, Pats to the Super Bowl in the same season.

In the O-line's defense, it was Bledose who decided he didn't want to slide and took the sideline hit from Mo Lewis, line had nothing to do with it. If Bledsoe had any kind of moves whatsoever, he could have shifted and took a glancing blow, rather than getting hammered dead-on like he did. That play was a prime example of a player forcing the action and not playing within his abilities...

TreWardTxn
02-16-2006, 10:46 PM
Bulger doesn't have it....... Kurt lost it, but Bulger ain't got it..... he ain't going nowhere with that team.




Mark my word.

I don't think he will either and that Kurt will be back in the playoffs first with Anquan and Fitz...

infantrycak
02-16-2006, 11:04 PM
You know what? Let's take your list, and I'll even concede the point that small conference guys can have success, in fact, you left Chad Pennington out of there, he was a good QB before his shoulder was shredded...

Thanks for pointing out Pennington. I also forgot Daunte Culpepper from the Atlantic Sun Conference. This above is the only part responsive to anything I was saying. There is no validity to the asserted proposition that non-major conferences don't develop successful NFL QB's. By my count, that is at least 13 QB's who were set to be starters for their teams at the beginning of last season. Almost seems like guys who have never played big boy football are taking over the place.

jerek
02-16-2006, 11:53 PM
Thanks for pointing out Pennington. I also forgot Daunte Culpepper from the Atlantic Sun Conference. This above is the only part responsive to anything I was saying. There is no validity to the asserted proposition that non-major conferences don't develop successful NFL QB's. By my count, that is at least 13 QB's who were set to be starters for their teams at the beginning of last season. Almost seems like guys who have never played big boy football are taking over the place.

The assertion was another thinly veiled vote for "grab Vince, Carr blows," and much like all of the bullspit about Carr being GQ and a preacher and the joke of the lockerroom, it was pulled out of the poster's ***.

With all of the "haters" on this board (with people in support of Carr "hating" Young by proximity and vice versa), it is a wonder people can discuss a player's game based on real observations of football.

TreWardTxn
02-17-2006, 12:21 AM
The assertion was another thinly veiled vote for "grab Vince, Carr blows," and much like all of the bullspit about Carr being GQ and a preacher and the joke of the lockerroom, it was pulled out of the poster's ***.

With all of the "haters" on this board (with people in support of Carr "hating" Young by proximity and vice versa), it is a wonder people can discuss a player's game based on real observations of football.

What kind of action you want on which QB will win a playoff game first?

bklatch
02-17-2006, 09:25 AM
What kind of action you want on which QB will win a playoff game first?

That is a bet I'll take. I have no reason to take a sucker bet like the one offered above. But I will bet a $100.00 on Vince reaching the playoffs before Carr does.

TexanBacker93
02-17-2006, 01:58 PM
That is a bet I'll take. I have no reason to take a sucker bet like the one offered above. But I will bet a $100.00 on Vince reaching the playoffs before Carr does.


VY could get drafted by a playoff ready team, sit the bench for 2 years, and reach the playoffs without touching the field. I think a more fair bet would be which QB will lead his team to the playoffs.

thunderkyss
02-17-2006, 02:45 PM
VY could get drafted by a playoff ready team, sit the bench for 2 years, and reach the playoffs without touching the field. I think a more fair bet would be which QB will lead his team to the playoffs.


Even giving Carr a 2 year headstart, doesn't make this any more fair.

Maddict5
02-17-2006, 08:01 PM
Mad,
Do you think DC would start over VY if they were at the same college?



in all fairness how can i answer that reasonably- is it based on DC now or when he was in college- also it depends on what kind of system a college uses. if its was a pro style offence (not many options etc.), i think carr would've had a better than 50/50 shot @ being the starting qb but theres so many 'ifs' in the question. also Houston texans arent a college team with a starter and trying to recruit a HS qb- this is the pro's. things are different. VY may have had a better college history but that doesnt mean he'll be a superstar qb in the nfl.

Now heres my question for you-with the jets possibly becoming interested in the #1 pick-and that indirectly affecting teams like the dolphins(maybe)- what do you think is the reasonable amount of picks necessary for us to trade with (lets say) the jets

Riley
02-17-2006, 09:44 PM
in all fairness how can i answer that reasonably- is it based on DC now or when he was in college- also it depends on what kind of system a college uses. if its was a pro style offence (not many options etc.), i think carr would've had a better than 50/50 shot @ being the starting qb but theres so many 'ifs' in the question. also Houston texans arent a college team with a starter and trying to recruit a HS qb- this is the pro's. things are different. VY may have had a better college history but that doesnt mean he'll be a superstar qb in the nfl.

Now heres my question for you-with the jets possibly becoming interested in the #1 pick-and that indirectly affecting teams like the dolphins(maybe)- what do you think is the reasonable amount of picks necessary for us to trade with (lets say) the jets

MAD,

It does not matter what system they played in. Vy would beat DC in any system. Face it DC is not good.

Riley
02-17-2006, 09:49 PM
VY could get drafted by a playoff ready team, sit the bench for 2 years, and reach the playoffs without touching the field. I think a more fair bet would be which QB will lead his team to the playoffs.


Ok then let's change the bet. Since I think you misunderstood what BK was betting on. I will bet you $200.00 that DC will never lead a team to the playoffs and VY will. This pains me to say this, because GK is a friend of mine and if DC ends up being his choice for the QB here, he won't be very successful.

TreWardTxn
02-18-2006, 01:04 AM
in all fairness how can i answer that reasonably- is it based on DC now or when he was in college- also it depends on what kind of system a college uses. if its was a pro style offence (not many options etc.), i think carr would've had a better than 50/50 shot @ being the starting qb but theres so many 'ifs' in the question. also Houston texans arent a college team with a starter and trying to recruit a HS qb- this is the pro's. things are different. VY may have had a better college history but that doesnt mean he'll be a superstar qb in the nfl.

Now heres my question for you-with the jets possibly becoming interested in the #1 pick-and that indirectly affecting teams like the dolphins(maybe)- what do you think is the reasonable amount of picks necessary for us to trade with (lets say) the jets

What is this insanity? Vince Young was one of the top players recruited in 2002, and a top QB. Carr wouldn't have started over Reggie McNeal if they were at the same school. Carr was highly recruited though, and decided to go to...Fresno State? Talk about scared to compete and taking on new challenges...If any Carr supporters don't want to hear that, then I suggest they give up this notion that Young is "scared" to throw at the combine and afraid of competition...

bigTEXan8
02-18-2006, 09:42 AM
What is this insanity? Vince Young was one of the top players recruited in 2002, and a top QB. Carr wouldn't have started over Reggie McNeal if they were at the same school. Carr was highly recruited though, and decided to go to...Fresno State? Talk about scared to compete and taking on new challenges...If any Carr supporters don't want to hear that, then I suggest they give up this notion that Young is "scared" to throw at the combine and afraid of competition...

Carr went to FS because he had been a fan since he was a kid. It had been a dream of his since he started playing football, since it was the closest Div I college to Bakersfield. "Scared to compete and take on new challenges" = "I have Vince-goggles on." VY doesn't want to throw in the combine because of his low release point in comparison to most QBs in the NFL. Maybe he can't get the same zip on the ball from where he throws it now...I don't know. The thing was, Carr had to change his basic throwing motion to have that higher release point, and it's just my thinking that maybe VY can't adjust. Of course, Alex Smith wowed everyone at the combine last year throwing the ball, and look how well that turned out.

Wolf
02-18-2006, 10:21 AM
Ok then let's change the bet. Since I think you misunderstood what BK was betting on. I will bet you $200.00 that DC will never lead a team to the playoffs and VY will. This pains me to say this, because GK is a friend of mine and if DC ends up being his choice for the QB here, he won't be very successful.


Wouldn't that mean the Kuiak didn't do his job also?

and that would be 1) getting the Texans to the playoffs and 2) Reprogram Carr mind on how to think in the pocket

let me add a 3rd on there... get an OL that can pass block (or scheme)

one thing with Capers he is perfect on his system ruining young QB's (Collings and Carr)

HJam72
02-18-2006, 10:35 AM
I think David Carr is going to wind up remembering Capers as the worst thing that ever happended to him (in football, I mean).

TreWardTxn
02-18-2006, 05:17 PM
Carr went to FS because he had been a fan since he was a kid. It had been a dream of his since he started playing football, since it was the closest Div I college to Bakersfield. "Scared to compete and take on new challenges" = "I have Vince-goggles on." VY doesn't want to throw in the combine because of his low release point in comparison to most QBs in the NFL. Maybe he can't get the same zip on the ball from where he throws it now...I don't know. The thing was, Carr had to change his basic throwing motion to have that higher release point, and it's just my thinking that maybe VY can't adjust. Of course, Alex Smith wowed everyone at the combine last year throwing the ball, and look how well that turned out.

Thank you for pointing out exactly what I was getting at, which is the QB part of the combine is worthless. Scouts already know he has a low release point, anad unless they plan to put an 8 1/2ft. fence in front of him, studying the film of actual games against D-linemen would be more beneficial than seeing him at the combine. Nobody gets to throw against air in the NFL like at the combine, and to argue that Vince is "scared" to do so, is just as ridiculous to say that DC was scared to go to a powerhouse 1A college. However, some people on this board have expressed frustration with the fact that Carr has never had to truly compete for the Texans job, and it is simply interesting to note, that he didn't have to do that at the collegiate level either...

Wolf
02-18-2006, 05:58 PM
Thank you for pointing out exactly what I was getting at, which is the QB part of the combine is worthless. Scouts already know he has a low release point, anad unless they plan to put an 8 1/2ft. fence in front of him, studying the film of actual games against D-linemen would be more beneficial than seeing him at the combine. Nobody gets to throw against air in the NFL like at the combine, and to argue that Vince is "scared" to do so, is just as ridiculous to say that DC was scared to go to a powerhouse 1A college. However, some people on this board have expressed frustration with the fact that Carr has never had to truly compete for the Texans job, and it is simply interesting to note, that he didn't have to do that at the collegiate level either...

not sure about that.. if I am not mistaken Carr struggled and got reshirted for a season then after that he came back and played well... (from what I remember and someone can correct me if I am wrong on that)

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/2002-08-01-texans-carr_x.htm

expwrlifter
02-18-2006, 06:21 PM
Mad,
Depends on what we are giving up and what are we getting in return. If you have a chance to get some OL and still stay in the top 3 picks.. then I would probably do it.

Maddict5
02-18-2006, 06:39 PM
no players just picks- i think we should definitely stay in the top 3/4 whatever happens- once we have a shot at either d'brick and mario i would take the trade down with 2nd and 3rds-and a future 1/2 rounder.

i think the chad pennington/steve mc nair situation is helping us as the jets may look to trade up now, which might make the titans make a move aswell. anyway il stop speculating and just see what happens.

Napa Auto Parts
02-18-2006, 07:34 PM
the decision to go play for fresno state was the fact that david wasnt as highly recruited as some people would like to think we all know that he did have a few offers but he was not in any mean of the word a cant miss prospect that why he played for fresno state. it's just sad to me when your not even the best QB to come out fresno state. and i know this is going to hurt some people "Homers" and ill get some negative rating for this i dont care it s the truth.

TreWardTxn
02-18-2006, 07:35 PM
not sure about that.. if I am not mistaken Carr struggled and got reshirted for a season then after that he came back and played well... (from what I remember and someone can correct me if I am wrong on that)

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/2002-08-01-texans-carr_x.htm

Well, if he ever needed to draw from that experience, then the time is now...

jerek
02-20-2006, 09:10 AM
Thank you for pointing out exactly what I was getting at, which is the QB part of the combine is worthless. Scouts already know he has a low release point, anad unless they plan to put an 8 1/2ft. fence in front of him, studying the film of actual games against D-linemen would be more beneficial than seeing him at the combine. Nobody gets to throw against air in the NFL like at the combine, and to argue that Vince is "scared" to do so, is just as ridiculous to say that DC was scared to go to a powerhouse 1A college. However, some people on this board have expressed frustration with the fact that Carr has never had to truly compete for the Texans job, and it is simply interesting to note, that he didn't have to do that at the collegiate level either...

As bad as Banks and Ragone are, they are little better or worse than most NFL backup QBs. People assume - for whatever reason, probably because it is convenient to assume when you are trying to further an agenda - that Carr has "never had to compete." The reason he has started on this team since Day 1 is because he is hands down the best QB on the squad, and demonstrates that day in and day out in practice.

Most teams do not have two clear starting caliber QBs (ala the Carr/Young works because Brees/Rivers has worked argument, looking only at the W column and ignoring the other far-reaching consequences of the deal), primarily for reasons of cost. Most NFL starting QBs are not under the constant "threat" of being benched.

I understand that Carr has not yet performed to expectations (mine either, really, for that matter), but it is reaching to say that he has "never had to compete for his job."

What kind of action you want on which QB will win a playoff game first?

I will not make that bet until I see what team Vince goes to. There is a hell of a lot more to winning games than filling one position on the field. Of course, that is conveniently ignored by many posters on this MB who suppose Vince single-handedly won the Rose Bowl and every other game he has played in for that matter. To many, you could have put ten cardboard boxes out there on the field with him and he still would have inspired them to victory. Great players do make everyone around them better, but this is football, and I am not going to bet against Vince just to have him step onto some team waiting in the wings for that last piece or two while the Texans spend the first half of this year gelling under Kubiak.

Long story short, not until I see who drafts him. Talk about a "sucker" bet. Yeesh.

Big B Texan Fan
02-20-2006, 09:48 AM
not sure about that.. if I am not mistaken Carr struggled and got reshirted for a season then after that he came back and played well... (from what I remember and someone can correct me if I am wrong on that)

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/2002-08-01-texans-carr_x.htm
His first year after that redshirt year (his 3rd year in college) was suspect at best. It was that "sell your soul" type of season in his 5th year.

Big B Texan Fan
02-20-2006, 09:49 AM
As bad as Banks and Ragone are, they are little better or worse than most NFL backup QBs. People assume - for whatever reason, probably because it is convenient to assume when you are trying to further an agenda - that Carr has "never had to compete." The reason he has started on this team since Day 1 is because he is hands down the best QB on the squad, and demonstrates that day in and day out in practice.

Most teams do not have two clear starting caliber QBs (ala the Carr/Young works because Brees/Rivers has worked argument, looking only at the W column and ignoring the other far-reaching consequences of the deal), primarily for reasons of cost. Most NFL starting QBs are not under the constant "threat" of being benched.

I understand that Carr has not yet performed to expectations (mine either, really, for that matter), but it is reaching to say that he has "never had to compete for his job."



I will not make that bet until I see what team Vince goes to. There is a hell of a lot more to winning games than filling one position on the field. Of course, that is conveniently ignored by many posters on this MB who suppose Vince single-handedly won the Rose Bowl and every other game he has played in for that matter. To many, you could have put ten cardboard boxes out there on the field with him and he still would have inspired them to victory. Great players do make everyone around them better, but this is football, and I am not going to bet against Vince just to have him step onto some team waiting in the wings for that last piece or two while the Texans spend the first half of this year gelling under Kubiak.

Long story short, not until I see who drafts him. Talk about a "sucker" bet. Yeesh.
Jerek-

Am I the only one who you have a bet with?

jerek
02-20-2006, 10:20 AM
Jerek-

Am I the only one who you have a bet with?

So far, I think so. Anyone I am missing, feel free to correct me.

expwrlifter
02-20-2006, 10:34 AM
Is it me or did I read right that VY was apart of the NBA All-star events. I dont mean he participated in them but was involved with them. I also read that he went out and braved the cold this weekend to work on his throwing skills. EVen the QB coach he has been in the league 30+ years said he wouldnt change anything about VY. Said he was a great athlete and something special... Intresting that comes from another coach....:ok:

Even read this morning that people are hearing from inside sources that DC may have some trade value left in him... What I dont understand is why are people on this board afraid to draft VY? Can we honestly say we are one player away from being good.... to me "NO" and im sure some will agree and disagree. But I dont honestly think RB will be able to endure the 15 + carries people expect him too. He wont be able to run to the outside. Too much speed in NFL around the corner and people play alot of Cover 2 so corners are waiting for you.. ITs a rebuilding year... let VY learn and compete with DC to make DC earn his job... because it was given to him whether you believe that or not... he was... They will be both learning the same system at the same time... let them compete for it... and it will shut all of us up.. dont you agree...:redtowel:

jerek
02-20-2006, 10:34 AM
And let me reiterate for the cameras, I think Vince will be a fine NFL QB. I think that Carr is the better QB right now, but give Vince a year or two and hopefully good coaching and a good supporting cast, and I think the guy will do really well in this league. If he improves his arm and works on his game there is nothing saying he can't or won't become a better QB than Carr some day. And finally, if Banks was our starting QB, I would love to draft Vince: I would be all about it.

But we have Carr, we have other, far more pressing holes to fill, and my stance is that the Texans team - at this point in time and all things considered, including salary cap implications and our roster as it stands - should not draft Young. We are not "one player away," but we are not necessarily "rebuilding" either, and you don't fix what isn't broke. There are too many other pieces to the puzzle we can fill in, rather than drafting a $55M somewhat-project QB over Carr, who is at least functionally decent and might well be great in a new system. You only get one offseason every year, and you can only cover so much ground, and we would be maximizing our offseason this year in keeping the "veteran" Carr and drafting/signing intelligently outside of the QB position.

My :twocents:

bigTEXan8
02-20-2006, 10:36 AM
So far, I think so. Anyone I am missing, feel free to correct me.

Wo...what's the bet. Maybe I want to get in on this action.

jerek
02-20-2006, 10:41 AM
Wo...what's the bet. Maybe I want to get in on this action.

Read the sig :cool:

bigTEXan8
02-20-2006, 10:53 AM
I so want in on this...who wants some?

TreWardTxn
02-20-2006, 10:57 AM
As bad as Banks and Ragone are, they are little better or worse than most NFL backup QBs. People assume - for whatever reason, probably because it is convenient to assume when you are trying to further an agenda - that Carr has "never had to compete." The reason he has started on this team since Day 1 is because he is hands down the best QB on the squad, and demonstrates that day in and day out in practice.

Most teams do not have two clear starting caliber QBs (ala the Carr/Young works because Brees/Rivers has worked argument, looking only at the W column and ignoring the other far-reaching consequences of the deal), primarily for reasons of cost. Most NFL starting QBs are not under the constant "threat" of being benched.

I understand that Carr has not yet performed to expectations (mine either, really, for that matter), but it is reaching to say that he has "never had to compete for his job."

BTW...that other bet is a joke, the players have no control over who drafts them...


I will not make that bet until I see what team Vince goes to. There is a hell of a lot more to winning games than filling one position on the field. Of course, that is conveniently ignored by many posters on this MB who suppose Vince single-handedly won the Rose Bowl and every other game he has played in for that matter. To many, you could have put ten cardboard boxes out there on the field with him and he still would have inspired them to victory. Great players do make everyone around them better, but this is football, and I am not going to bet against Vince just to have him step onto some team waiting in the wings for that last piece or two while the Texans spend the first half of this year gelling under Kubiak.

Long story short, not until I see who drafts him. Talk about a "sucker" bet. Yeesh.

When this franchise started the Texans brought in Kent Graham and Mike Quinn to "compete" for the starting job. Ever since that opening day win, Carr has been living off of his potential. Even though we have seen flashes from Tony Banks, the Texans org. has decided to sink or swim with Carr, and understandably so, due to the monetary investment and his potential. As far as the bet goes, the action was on who would win a playoff game first, a team's defense can get them to the playoffs, but once there, the QB has to make plays. We know he's going to a crap team, NO or TN are both lookin at QBs and are not preseason playoff contenders. In today's NFL of free agency, you can turn a loser into a playoff contender in 2-3 years, and I would bet 95% of posters wholly expect the Texans to be in the playoffs by 2008 (a lot by '07). So the bet basically translates into, '2-3 years from now, will an incoming rookie QB be further along and more accomplished in his career than a present day 5th year player'? Now that you better understand me, what you think?

BTW...that other bet is a joke, the players have no control over who drafts them...

TreWardTxn
02-20-2006, 11:00 AM
(repost)

El Tejano
02-20-2006, 11:09 AM
And let me reiterate for the cameras, I think Vince will be a fine NFL QB. I think that Carr is the better QB right now, but give Vince a year or two and hopefully good coaching and a good supporting cast, and I think the guy will do really well in this league. If he improves his arm and works on his game there is nothing saying he can't or won't become a better QB than Carr some day. And finally, if Banks was our starting QB, I would love to draft Vince: I would be all about it.

But we have Carr, we have other, far more pressing holes to fill, and my stance is that the Texans team - at this point in time and all things considered, including salary cap implications and our roster as it stands - should not draft Young. We are not "one player away," but we are not necessarily "rebuilding" either, and you don't fix what isn't broke. There are too many other pieces to the puzzle we can fill in, rather than drafting a $55M somewhat-project QB over Carr, who is at least functionally decent and might well be great in a new system. You only get one offseason every year, and you can only cover so much ground, and we would be maximizing our offseason this year in keeping the "veteran" Carr and drafting/signing intelligently outside of the QB position.

My :twocents:
This type of quote is one of the exact reasons I come to this board everyday. So that I can find a reason to not draft Vince. Your reasoning just makes sense overall. Truthfully if Vince didn't come from UT and Houston I doubt many of us would be wanting him. Also, this serves all the people right who wanted us to lose so we could get the first pick and draft Reggie.

travfrancis
02-20-2006, 11:26 AM
LOL at jerek and bigTEX, if yall are so confident why don't yall atleast give some odds? come on now, yall arent being as bold as you think you are.

This type of quote is one of the exact reasons I come to this board everyday. So that I can find a reason to not draft Vince.

you come to the board everyday to convince yourself that we shouldn't draft vince? don't really know what to think of that, but seems a little bit weird.

infantrycak
02-20-2006, 11:34 AM
I didn't say anything about him not playing against top 20 defenses, remember the conversation was never about stats; I said he didn't play against any bonafide NFL talent, and if you can find the guys on either of those teams that gets any PT in the League, I'd like you to post them up for me...

You mean other than:

Chad Johnson WR Bengals
TJ Houshmanzadeh WR Bengals
Nick Barnett LB Green Bay
Steven Jackson RB St. Louis
TJ Duckett RB Atlanta
Charles Rogers WR Detroit
Dwan Edwards DT Baltimore
Delawrence Grant LB Oakland
Dennis Weathersby CB (would have been an NFL player but for being shot)

Not sure all of them were there for the games DC played in but those teams do field NFL talent. Really, does it matter if any of the players went on to the NFL if the unit as a whole played well together? Doesn't it prove more to perform well against a top 20 D with no names than to do well against an 80-100 D with 2 guys who get drafted on the 1st day? I'll take the former.

jerek
02-20-2006, 11:53 AM
LOL at jerek and bigTEX, if yall are so confident why don't yall atleast give some odds? come on now, yall arent being as bold as you think you are.



you come to the board everyday to convince yourself that we shouldn't draft vince? don't really know what to think of that, but seems a little bit weird.

Then why don't you take the bet?

And to TreWard, of course players don't choose where they are drafted. The bet was started a few weeks back when everyone and their mother was shrieking for joy because they were so convinced that the Texans would draft Young, no way, no how, couldn't possibly, not-even-if-you-put-a-gun-to-their-head would they ever pass on him (i.e. Big B).

You want action? Okay, same 50 I will be taking off Big B and any one else stupid enough to take my original bet, I will put on DC winning a playoff game before Vince does. Sound good?

infantrycak
02-20-2006, 12:00 PM
You want action? Okay, same 50 I will be taking off Big B and any one else stupid enough to take my original bet, I will put on DC winning a playoff game before Vince does. Sound good?

Better qualify that he has to be the starting QB. If he goes to TN he could be on a winning play-off team watching Steve McNair from the sidelines 2-3 years down the road.

jerek
02-20-2006, 12:07 PM
Better qualify that he has to be the starting QB. If he goes to TN he could be on a winning play-off team watching Steve McNair from the sidelines 2-3 years down the road.

Good point and that is what I meant to infer. Guy must start throughout the majority (12+ games?) of the regular season and in the playoff game.

Though as an aside, I have to believe McNair is on his way out of the NFL. You think he's got enough juice left in him to make it that far?

infantrycak
02-20-2006, 12:18 PM
Though as an aside, I have to believe McNair is on his way out of the NFL. You think he's got enough juice left in him to make it that far?

He just turned 33. He had a young/injured surrounding cast last year. If he has faith in the direction of the team and likes Chow, I'd bet is he is going to sign a contract and try to make one more run at the playoffs with an eye toward playing 2-3 more years. I just don't see him signing on to a 4-12 team with the intention of sticking around just one more year.

TexanFanInCC
02-20-2006, 12:35 PM
2. Niether did VY this year...he played in the overrated Big 12...OOOHHH.



oh come on! anytime u beat a team that didnt lose a game in 2 seasons (winner of a share of a nat. title and another the next yr.) prior to the nat. champ game and beat an excellent ohio state team in columbus, then u dont deserve to be a victim of this comment. sorry. the big 12 was overrated, but to use that against young is plain stupid. young wins on the biggest stages. what more can u ask of him? look at his winning precentage as a starter...

bigTEXan8
02-20-2006, 02:54 PM
oh come on! anytime u beat a team that didnt lose a game in 2 seasons (winner of a share of a nat. title and another the next yr.) prior to the nat. champ game and beat an excellent ohio state team in columbus, then u dont deserve to be a victim of this comment. sorry. the big 12 was overrated, but to use that against young is plain stupid. young wins on the biggest stages. what more can u ask of him? look at his winning precentage as a starter...

Jeez...how long ago did I write that. Look, it is my opinion that the Big12 was overrated this year. VY never beat a solid, put together team. Don't get me wrong, "Thee" Ohio St. was a good team, and USC had a great offense. But, for the most part, I wasn't impressed by what VY did against the rest of the competition he played against this year. Beating teams like Baylor, TT, and Colorado (x2) isn't impressive.

Rewsky
02-20-2006, 03:42 PM
Jeez...how long ago did I write that. Look, it is my opinion that the Big12 was overrated this year. VY never beat a solid, put together team. Don't get me wrong, "Thee" Ohio St. was a good team, and USC had a great offense. But, for the most part, I wasn't impressed by what VY did against the rest of the competition he played against this year. Beating teams like Baylor, TT, and Colorado (x2) isn't impressive.


Those teams aren't as bad as you think. It's not like VY played against WAC teams.

VY never beat a solid, put together team????:confused:

Well, why don't you enlighten us with some examples of "solid, put together" college teams. If Ohio St. & USC aren't solid, who is?

bigTEXan8
02-20-2006, 03:45 PM
Those teams aren't as bad as you think. It's not like VY played against WAC teams.

VY never beat a solid, put together team????:confused:

Well, why don't you enlighten us with some examples of "solid, put together" college teams. If Ohio St. & USC aren't solid, who is?

Try and read the entire post. Here...I'll bold out the part where I say that USC and Ohio St are solid teams, except I use the word good.

Jeez...how long ago did I write that. Look, it is my opinion that the Big12 was overrated this year. VY never beat a solid, put together team. Don't get me wrong, "Thee" Ohio St. was a good team, and USC had a great offense. But, for the most part, I wasn't impressed by what VY did against the rest of the competition he played against this year. Beating teams like Baylor, TT, and Colorado (x2) isn't impressive.

Rewsky
02-20-2006, 04:02 PM
Try and read the entire post. Here...I'll bold out the part where I say that USC and Ohio St are solid teams, except I use the word good.


So in one sentence you say VY hasn't beaten a solid team, and in the very next sentence you say he has (Ohio St. & USC). :ok: Why even post the first sentence when it contradicts the 2nd.


I agree that the Big 12 was down this year. However, to act like the other teams in the Big 12 are chopped liver is foolish, IMO. Typically all the major conferences are relatively equal. I think it just cycles every year as to which conference is the strongest.:twocents:

bigTEXan8
02-20-2006, 04:41 PM
So in one sentence you say VY hasn't beaten a solid team, and in the very next sentence you say he has (Ohio St. & USC). :ok: Why even post the first sentence when it contradicts the 2nd.


I agree that the Big 12 was down this year. However, to act like the other teams in the Big 12 are chopped liver is foolish, IMO. Typically all the major conferences are relatively equal. I think it just cycles every year as to which conference is the strongest.:twocents:

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt with Ohio St. & USC. I've never once said that VY sucks, I just don't think he's the savior everybody is making him out to be.

travfrancis
02-20-2006, 05:13 PM
^ well if he isn't it certianly isn't from the reasons you are stating.

TreWardTxn
02-20-2006, 05:29 PM
You mean other than:

Chad Johnson WR Bengals
TJ Houshmanzadeh WR Bengals
Nick Barnett LB Green Bay
Steven Jackson RB St. Louis
TJ Duckett RB Atlanta
Charles Rogers WR Detroit
Dwan Edwards DT Baltimore
Delawrence Grant LB Oakland
Dennis Weathersby CB (would have been an NFL player but for being shot)

Not sure all of them were there for the games DC played in but those teams do field NFL talent. Really, does it matter if any of the players went on to the NFL if the unit as a whole played well together? Doesn't it prove more to perform well against a top 20 D with no names than to do well against an 80-100 D with 2 guys who get drafted on the 1st day? I'll take the former.

That would make sense and be true if it weren't for the fact that college defenses with 1st day NFL talent are invariably better. Having NFL quality players on your college defense makes it better, and in fact, the more NFL ready players, the better. Second of all, I standy by what I said in that Young played against more NFL quality players in one game than Carr did his entire college career (BTW...that's means defense only, he didn't have to beat Chad Johnson in coverage). The only guy he played against in college who plays in the league today is Nick Barnett (Grant too early, Edwards too late), and it does matter, because it deals with the speed of the game, which he has certainly struggled to adjust to. Against the 2004 OU team alone, Young played against Dan Cody, Antonio Perkins and Brodney Poole. So like I said, I don't care about stats, give me the guy who battled against superior talent, who likewise, had better stats. Just to hammer this home, judging a defense by yards is misleading, as teams who are behind need to throw a lot to catch up, who cares if they pick up a 15 yd gain if they have to make up 4 scores?

TreWardTxn
02-20-2006, 06:02 PM
And let me reiterate for the cameras, I think Vince will be a fine NFL QB. I think that Carr is the better QB right now, but give Vince a year or two and hopefully good coaching and a good supporting cast, and I think the guy will do really well in this league. If he improves his arm and works on his game there is nothing saying he can't or won't become a better QB than Carr some day. And finally, if Banks was our starting QB, I would love to draft Vince: I would be all about it.

But we have Carr, we have other, far more pressing holes to fill, and my stance is that the Texans team - at this point in time and all things considered, including salary cap implications and our roster as it stands - should not draft Young. We are not "one player away," but we are not necessarily "rebuilding" either, and you don't fix what isn't broke. There are too many other pieces to the puzzle we can fill in, rather than drafting a $55M somewhat-project QB over Carr, who is at least functionally decent and might well be great in a new system. You only get one offseason every year, and you can only cover so much ground, and we would be maximizing our offseason this year in keeping the "veteran" Carr and drafting/signing intelligently outside of the QB position.

My :twocents:

OK, people are applauding this as being the practical, sensible approach to this entire situation, when the fact of the matter is, resigning Carr is as much a dice roll as anything else. After 4 years in the league the only irrefutable compliments anyone can pay him (about his performance on field) is that, he has elite arm strength, has endured a lot of sacks without completely blowing his top, and that he is fairly mobile by NFL standards. After 4 years, he is playing on the same potential that got him drafted #1. People want this thing to be plain and simple, they want Carr to pull a Ryan Leaf or go ballistic after every sack before it is decided the franchise needs a change. Well, that won't happen, Carr is not Akili Smith (might be a more mellow Jeff George though) and will always be able to play in this league, because he looks too good throwing the ball in practice. Just because a guy is not a complete washout doesn't mean he isn't a bust. Your post says "we have Carr", like that translates into "proven NFL starter", well it doesn't, and for the Texans or anyone else to believe that it does, is just misguided...

infantrycak
02-20-2006, 06:31 PM
That would make sense and be true if it weren't for the fact that college defenses with 1st day NFL talent are invariably better.

That would be a nice theory and all if it wasn't demonstrably wrong. Both those teams were in the top 20 on D at the time Fresno played them. There were plenty of teams who had NFL talent on them at the same time and were lower ranked--thus invariably is wrong. Psst--Darnell Bing is NFL talent and his D was bad--just a recent example.

Texans_Chick
02-20-2006, 08:08 PM
OK, people are applauding this as being the practical, sensible approach to this entire situation, when the fact of the matter is, resigning Carr is as much a dice roll as anything else. After 4 years in the league the only irrefutable compliments anyone can pay him (about his performance on field) is that, he has elite arm strength, has endured a lot of sacks without completely blowing his top, and that he is fairly mobile by NFL standards. After 4 years, he is playing on the same potential that got him drafted #1. People want this thing to be plain and simple, they want Carr to pull a Ryan Leaf or go ballistic after every sack before it is decided the franchise needs a change. Well, that won't happen, Carr is not Akili Smith (might be a more mellow Jeff George though) and will always be able to play in this league, because he looks too good throwing the ball in practice. Just because a guy is not a complete washout doesn't mean he isn't a bust. Your post says "we have Carr", like that translates into "proven NFL starter", well it doesn't, and for the Texans or anyone else to believe that it does, is just misguided...

Well put. It is the Forrest Gump Box of Chocolate's view of our QB position--you never know what you are gonna get.

I hope the best for Carr, I hope that the experts are right, I hope that if we go with him, that the fan base will give him some time to learn the new system, I hope more tools and protection will do the trick, I hope year 5 shows us the goods, and I hope he has success.

But all that hope doesn't translate to complete confidence that this is gonna work. I can't wrap my mind around what our next year is gonna look like--vast improvement or horrible abomination or somewheres in the middle. Were the training wheels the coachs had on them last year holding them back, or were they necessary because the team woulda looked even worse? It is easier to think of it as entirely a coaching thing because coaches are easier to replace. At this point, I will stop thinking on paper, as I am unnerving myself.

Just wait and see.

jerek
02-20-2006, 08:35 PM
OK, people are applauding this as being the practical, sensible approach to this entire situation, when the fact of the matter is, resigning Carr is as much a dice roll as anything else. After 4 years in the league the only irrefutable compliments anyone can pay him (about his performance on field) is that, he has elite arm strength, has endured a lot of sacks without completely blowing his top, and that he is fairly mobile by NFL standards. After 4 years, he is playing on the same potential that got him drafted #1. People want this thing to be plain and simple, they want Carr to pull a Ryan Leaf or go ballistic after every sack before it is decided the franchise needs a change. Well, that won't happen, Carr is not Akili Smith (might be a more mellow Jeff George though) and will always be able to play in this league, because he looks too good throwing the ball in practice. Just because a guy is not a complete washout doesn't mean he isn't a bust. Your post says "we have Carr", like that translates into "proven NFL starter", well it doesn't, and for the Texans or anyone else to believe that it does, is just misguided...

Yes and no. You are still ignoring the driving point: virtually anybody you ask will admit that Carr is decent. Whether or not they think he will be good, great, or what have you, and whether or not they think Vince will be better, Carr has been and will always continue to be at least decent.

We are rolling the dice on Vince being better than Carr on this Texans franchise. It is a coin flip at best: all but the most diehard UT homer will acknowledge this as well. Vince has tremendous upside, but if it had been Vince fresh out of college vs DC fresh out of college these past four years, he would have suffered similarly. We may have picked up a few extra wins, even, if you think Vince would have been done better, but you are lying to yourself if you propose we would have been substantially better (> 2 wins per season, and that is pretty generous.) Our defense was habitually blown out of games, we have no established #2 receiving threat, our line is the perennial joke of the leage (and yes, Carr is responsible for some of those sacks, but the O-line is far and away the worst in the NFL) and our very good but injury riddled RB has yet to play a full season.

So now we have by far the most valuable draft real estate in this short franchise's history. More valuable than our expansion draft, because we have four years of personnel and at least some idea of how they will perform at the professional level, albeit skewed at least somewhat by our bumbling ex coaches.

Do we spend this valuable pick on what will be at best a moderate upgrade to the QB position - a player that comes with his own set of whens and ifs - or do we bite the bullet, do the unfashionable, and trade down, cover some serious ground on one or more of the other twenty-one positions on the field? Again, Carr has been at least decent. He may, I say will, but even at that, let's just say he may get better, but he has been decent. Plenty of decent QBs have won Super Bowls, and plenty of great QBs have not. Do we even know that Vince will be great?

It comes down to what will be the most valuable to the team, again, all things considered. My take: trade that pick = most value.

TreWardTxn
02-20-2006, 09:03 PM
That would be a nice theory and all if it wasn't demonstrably wrong. Both those teams were in the top 20 on D at the time Fresno played them. There were plenty of teams who had NFL talent on them at the same time and were lower ranked--thus invariably is wrong. Psst--Darnell Bing is NFL talent and his D was bad--just a recent example.

First of all, if we are talking about the 2001 football season, which was Carr's senior year (correct?) then OSU was the first team they played, so yeah, they were top 20 cause they hadn't played anyone yet. The other team (Michigan State) had 5 losses during the 2001 season. Are you truly trying to argue that they were a formidable college defense with 5 losses on the season? I don't care what their ranking was (which couldn't have been top 20) but if they had 5 losses, they weren't that good.
Stats, especially mid-season stats mean nothing. USC was a far superior defense, even with all its shortcomings, than that Oregon State D or MSU D. This is what trips me out, the same people that try to down Young for what he did on the field statistically, will turn around and pull out some meaningless stat like this in order to try (quite ineffectually) to prove a point. I stand by my statement, which is incoming college players are better off for having played against NFL and top flight quality opposition in college, than for having played against a "top 20" defense during week four of a season. How is it possible to rationalize against this?

Texans_Chick
02-20-2006, 09:05 PM
Yes and no. You are still ignoring the driving point: virtually anybody you ask will admit that Carr is decent. Whether or not they think he will be good, great, or what have you, and whether or not they think Vince will be better, Carr has been and will always continue to be at least decent.

We are rolling the dice on Vince being better than Carr on this Texans franchise. It is a coin flip at best: all but the most diehard UT homer will acknowledge this as well. Vince has tremendous upside, but if it had been Vince fresh out of college vs DC fresh out of college these past four years, he would have suffered similarly. We may have picked up a few extra wins, even, if you think Vince would have been done better, but you are lying to yourself if you propose we would have been substantially better (> 2 wins per season, and that is pretty generous.) Our defense was habitually blown out of games, we have no established #2 receiving threat, our line is the perennial joke of the leage (and yes, Carr is responsible for some of those sacks, but the O-line is far and away the worst in the NFL) and our very good but injury riddled RB has yet to play a full season.



Though I am not one of them, I am sure that there are a number of people on the MB and otherwise, that think DC is not "at least decent" but rather affirmatively bad.

As Carr took most of the snaps last season, we really do not know how much of it was him, and how much of it was everyone else.

How do you know we wouldn't have an established #2 receiving threat?

How do you know whether our Oline would look better with a different QB back there?

The hypothetical you set up is something we could never know. I do not know what sort of QB Carr is, so comparing him to a hypothetical VY in the NFL starting for a baby expansion team is even more muddled. Obviously, taking the reins of an expansion team as a rookie can't be easy for anyone, but I still don't have a sense of how much of this is on Carr and how much of this is on everyone else. And whether just this last four year experience has ruint him some.

There are too many variables, and that is what makes evaluating Carr extry difficult.

But as I said, I am hoping he is a good one. :texflag:

TreWardTxn
02-20-2006, 09:32 PM
Yes and no. You are still ignoring the driving point: virtually anybody you ask will admit that Carr is decent. Whether or not they think he will be good, great, or what have you, and whether or not they think Vince will be better, Carr has been and will always continue to be at least decent.

We are rolling the dice on Vince being better than Carr on this Texans franchise. It is a coin flip at best: all but the most diehard UT homer will acknowledge this as well. Vince has tremendous upside, but if it had been Vince fresh out of college vs DC fresh out of college these past four years, he would have suffered similarly. We may have picked up a few extra wins, even, if you think Vince would have been done better, but you are lying to yourself if you propose we would have been substantially better (> 2 wins per season, and that is pretty generous.) Our defense was habitually blown out of games, we have no established #2 receiving threat, our line is the perennial joke of the leage (and yes, Carr is responsible for some of those sacks, but the O-line is far and away the worst in the NFL) and our very good but injury riddled RB has yet to play a full season.

So now we have by far the most valuable draft real estate in this short franchise's history. More valuable than our expansion draft, because we have four years of personnel and at least some idea of how they will perform at the professional level, albeit skewed at least somewhat by our bumbling ex coaches.

Do we spend this valuable pick on what will be at best a moderate upgrade to the QB position - a player that comes with his own set of whens and ifs - or do we bite the bullet, do the unfashionable, and trade down, cover some serious ground on one or more of the other twenty-one positions on the field? Again, Carr has been at least decent. He may, I say will, but even at that, let's just say he may get better, but he has been decent. Plenty of decent QBs have won Super Bowls, and plenty of great QBs have not. Do we even know that Vince will be great?

It comes down to what will be the most valuable to the team, again, all things considered. My take: trade that pick = most value.

I understood that point quite well, especially when I mentioned the part about him always being able to find a team because he will look too good in practice, some guys are meant to hold a clip board (NOT saying Carr is that guy) and other guys are meant to be on the field. No analysts will badmouth Carr because he's young, healthy, and has great arm strength. I haven't heard any of these guys say it's time for Harrington to be canned yet, they think he should be brought back into their new scheme under new OC Martz. Anyone in the NFL will tell you, in the way of talent, across the board, there is little difference, meaning only a couple of standout talents at every position. There isn't a QB in the league that can't make the throws, or they wouldn't have a job. That alone makes them "decent".

I agree with you, that the least risky move the Texans can make is to trade down and accumulate picks (that means an extra 1 and 2, not just a swap and one 2), but are any of the guys on the board the most intriguing/talented prospect at their position in the last 10, 15, 25+ years? In one or two years we will be raving about another player just like them. No. This is as cliche as it gets, but you do not pass on potential this great (Bush or Young), especially when you are in the process of building a winning team, meaning, no chance of playoffs next year. To me, it is simply unwise to committ so greatly to an NFL "veteran" who we have little idea as to what kind of success he will have, and then shun the chance to take one of the most promising QB prospects ever.

You're right, I don't know what kind of success VY would have had if he came out in 2002, and became a Texan (he probably would have won two extra games a year on his running ability alone), but I'm pretty resolute in the belief that only a small fraction of fans would point the finger at the QB as to what was wrong...

big homey
02-20-2006, 10:11 PM
I understood that point quite well, especially when I mentioned the part about him always being able to find a team because he will look too good in practice, some guys are meant to hold a clip board (NOT saying Carr is that guy) and other guys are meant to be on the field. No analysts will badmouth Carr because he's young, healthy, and has great arm strength. I haven't heard any of these guys say it's time for Harrington to be canned yet, they think he should be brought back into their new scheme under new OC Martz. Anyone in the NFL will tell you, in the way of talent, across the board, there is little difference, meaning only a couple of standout talents at every position. There isn't a QB in the league that can't make the throws, or they wouldn't have a job. That alone makes them "decent".

I agree with you, that the least risky move the Texans can make is to trade down and accumulate picks (that means an extra 1 and 2, not just a swap and one 2), but are any of the guys on the board the most intriguing/talented prospect at their position in the last 10, 15, 25+ years? In one or two years we will be raving about another player just like them. No. This is as cliche as it gets, but you do not pass on potential this great (Bush or Young), especially when you are in the process of building a winning team, meaning, no chance of playoffs next year. To me, it is simply unwise to committ so greatly to an NFL "veteran" who we have little idea as to what kind of success he will have, and then shun the chance to take one of the most promising QB prospects ever.

You're right, I don't know what kind of success VY would have had if he came out in 2002, and became a Texan (he probably would have won two extra games a year on his running ability alone), but I'm pretty resolute in the belief that only a small fraction of fans would point the finger at the QB as to what was wrong...
So your rationale for drafting VY is that the team is in full rebuilding mode. That makes sense if you belive that, but I, as well as most other trade down/D'Brick guys, belive that the team isn't all that far from success.

We are going through a major transition, with a new coaching regime and new schemes and philosophies on both sides of the ball, but from a talent standpoint the team underachieved this past season. Just in '04 the team went 7-9, and most of us were shouting playoffs in '05. Capers & Co. tried to implement a system to reduce the sacks on offense, and for a while it worked (well actually, just the Bengals game), but it quickly proved an ineffective system, and coupled with Caper's/Pendry's conservative philosophies, the offense had trouble functioning. Worst of all, Carr's sack numbers went UP from '04.

Capers then ejected Sharper and Glenn in favor of younger, faster, more athletic guys. It sounded great at the time, and Sharper and Glenn were in the down of their careers, but the new guys (Buchanon & Greenwood) disappointed. Greenwood wasn't big or physical enough for the 3-4, and P-Buch couldn't handle the complex zone scheme and the lack of safety support from Coleman.

Kubiak is good at tailoring his scheme to his talent (tosses for Terrell Davis, cut running for Portis, play-action and bootlegs for Plummer) and is capable of bringing out the best on the offense, and his assistants on D will likely do the same. With upgrades at several postions, we could explode this coming season.

Oh and, D'Brick is being talked about as a rare type of talent, one who wasn't available last year or next year. We have an opportunity to address one of our actual needs with an elite prospect, rather than succumbing to flash and fluff.

powerfuldragon
02-20-2006, 10:19 PM
We are not in a rebuilding mode, we are in a REFRESHED mode and this is going to be the greatest year this franchise has ever had.
i'm gonna hold you to that statement.

tulexan
02-21-2006, 12:37 AM
Next year you are going to have Brady Quinn (the next Tom Brady), two years from now you are going to have Brian Brohm (the next Peyton Manning), three years from now you are going to have Ryan Perilloux (a better Vince Young), four years from now you are going to have Jimmy Clausen (the best QB prospect in decades). If Carr turns out to be a bust over the next few years, we will have no problem getting the next transcendent QB of the NFL.

swtbound07
02-21-2006, 12:46 AM
We are in rebuilding mode....teams that go 2-14 arent one or two players away...we arent reloading...we are starting from scratch and realizing the plan we had didnt work. Consider the few decent pieces we have (mathis, andre, dunta robinson, travis johnson) the equivalent of our expansion draft, and proceed from there. We WERENT better than our record indicated...if we go 4-12 next year are you going to claim it was because of the players adjusting to a new coach? Come on now, admit that its basically year one again. we did 4-12 our first first year, its feasible we do that again.

jerek
02-21-2006, 12:55 AM
We are in rebuilding mode....teams that go 2-14 arent one or two players away...we arent reloading...we are starting from scratch and realizing the plan we had didnt work. Consider the few decent pieces we have (mathis, andre, dunta robinson, travis johnson) the equivalent of our expansion draft, and proceed from there. We WERENT better than our record indicated...if we go 4-12 next year are you going to claim it was because of the players adjusting to a new coach? Come on now, admit that its basically year one again. we did 4-12 our first first year, its feasible we do that again.

That you would list Travis Johnson as a "piece" should be cause to question all of your opinions. What - other than his ridiculous track record as a half-asser, at both FSU and with the Texans - has caused you to think that he is a piece to anything? Please let me know.

Big B Texan Fan
02-21-2006, 12:56 AM
Plenty of decent QBs have won Super Bowls, and plenty of great QBs have not. Do we even know that Vince will be great?

It comes down to what will be the most valuable to the team, again, all things considered. My take: trade that pick = most value.
10 of the last 15 Super Bowl winning QB's have been considered "Great" while the other 5 have been only "Decent".
Can Carr be Brad Johnson "Decent".........NO! Not mistake-free enough.
Can Carr be Kurt Warner "Decent"..........NO! Not highly accurate enough.
Can Carr be Ben R-Berger "Decent"........Doubt it. We'll have to let the WR's throw the TD's too in our Super Bowl if we make it.
Can Carr be Mark Rypien "Decent".........Maybe, I don't know enough about the guy.
Can Carr be Trent Dilfer "Decent"...........Yes! Now all we have to do is construct the one of the best, if not the best, defenses.

So IMHO, he barely stacks up against 1 or 2 of those guys. Maybe he has a 20%-40% chance of capturing lightning in a bottle and riding the coattails of his teammates (like Ben and Trent truely did) in a Super Bowl victory. And that is with him compared to the bottom 1/3 of the Super Bowl winning QB's.

Don't even get me started on his (non) comparisons to Elway, Montana, Farvre, S.Young, Aikman, and Brady. All these guys with the exception of S.Young led their team to multiple Super Bowls and all the others have 2 or more Rings except for Favre. I like those odds better. 2/3's of a chance compared to 1/3's of a chance.

Now I'm not saying VY is the answer. If some of you may have noticed I've kept the VY man-crush a little quiet cuz even I noticed how ridiculous I was sounding but.....I definately advocate us drafting VY but more importantly want a change at the QB position irregardless. Carr ain't got what it takes to even be second or third fiddle on this team even if we do manage string together a few wins with or without our QB even being "Decent".

Big B Texan Fan
02-21-2006, 12:58 AM
Next year you are going to have Brady Quinn (the next Tom Brady), two years from now you are going to have Brian Brohm (the next Peyton Manning), three years from now you are going to have Ryan Perilloux (a better Vince Young), four years from now you are going to have Jimmy Clausen (the best QB prospect in decades). If Carr turns out to be a bust over the next few years, we will have no problem getting the next transcendent QB of the NFL.
Why wait?

kbourda
02-21-2006, 01:09 AM
Why wait?

Because it just makes more sense to start over then!:sarcasm:

kbourda
02-21-2006, 01:13 AM
We are not in a rebuilding mode, we are in a REFRESHED mode and this is going to be the greatest year this franchise has ever had.

Refreshed?!?! By saying that you, like myself, are expecting the Texans to make the playoffs with the addition of Reggie Bush and a new coaching staff. There's no reason for them not to though, right?

swtbound07
02-21-2006, 01:15 AM
That you would list Travis Johnson as a "piece" should be cause to question all of your opinions. What - other than his ridiculous track record as a half-asser, at both FSU and with the Texans - has caused you to think that he is a piece to anything? Please let me know.


He is a young, healthy starter on the defensive line...i didnt say he was a superstar, but was trying to say that he is a piece that can stand as is and not need to be immediately addressed. Also, its a bit unfair to judge him on one nfl season...it took dewayne robertson 3 to become the DT he is right now....im not saying he is all world, but he isn't chopping block fodder (buchanon)

tulexan
02-21-2006, 01:15 AM
We are in rebuilding mode....teams that go 2-14 arent one or two players away...we arent reloading...we are starting from scratch and realizing the plan we had didnt work. Consider the few decent pieces we have (mathis, andre, dunta robinson, travis johnson) the equivalent of our expansion draft, and proceed from there. We WERENT better than our record indicated...if we go 4-12 next year are you going to claim it was because of the players adjusting to a new coach? Come on now, admit that its basically year one again. we did 4-12 our first first year, its feasible we do that again.


If we were getting consistently blown out last year then I would agree with you. But we lost several games by touchdown or less and that was with horrendous play calling and unmotivated players. And why is this a total rebuilding mode? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Panthers went to the Super Bowl two seasons after going 1-15 and the Chargers went from 4-12 to 12-4 in one season. With the parity of the NFL, going from last place to the playoffs in a season or two is not a ludicrous notion. You can have a great team become a bad team in one season and a bad team become a great team in one season. The Bears were a bad team for the last few years and they earned a first round bye in the playoffs this year. The Eagles were in the Super Bowl last year and finished last in their division this year. Things were bad this year, really bad, but with good coaching and a few good draft picks and free agent signings, who knows what this team could do. Could they go 4-12 next year? Sure. Could they go 12-4 next year? Sure. The Texans are a Peyton Manning injury away from being competitive in the AFC South next year. You never know what will happen every season. If you did, then you would be a very rich man. It would be like having tomorrow's Wall Street Journal.

Have you ever seen those NFL Network commercials where its set in the preseason and you have people saying stuff like "The Bears will be lucky to win 4 games this year" or "T.O. is a team player"? What makes those funny is that its so true. Every year most fans expect one thing and get something completely different. Eagles fans probably thought that they were a lock to get back to the Super Bowl, Bears fans probably thought that they would be looking at another top draft pick. Half of our fans believe that we will be a bad team next year and the other half believes that we will be a decent or good team. One will be right, one will be wrong. Just like every season.

swtbound07
02-21-2006, 01:18 AM
If we were getting consistently blown out last year then I would agree with you. But we lost several games by touchdown or less and that was with horrendous play calling and unmotivated players. And why is this a total rebuilding mode? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Panthers went to the Super Bowl two seasons after going 1-15 and the Chargers went from 4-12 to 12-4 in one season. With the parity of the NFL, going from last place to the playoffs in a season or two is not a ludicrous notion. You can have a great team become a bad team in one season and a bad team become a great team in one season. The Bears were a bad team for the last few years and they earned a first round bye in the playoffs this year. The Eagles were in the Super Bowl last year and finished last in their division this year. Things were bad this year, really bad, but with good coaching and a few good draft picks and free agent signings, who knows what this team could do. Could they go 4-12 next year? Sure. Could they go 12-4 next year? Sure. The Texans are a Peyton Manning injury away from being competitive in the AFC South next year. You never know what will happen every season. If you did, then you would be a very rich man. It would be like having tomorrow's Wall Street Journal.

Have you ever seen those NFL Network commercials where its set in the preseason and you have people saying stuff like "The Bears will be lucky to win 4 games this year" or "T.O. is a team player"? What makes those funny is that its so true. Every year most fans expect one thing and get something completely different. Eagles fans probably thought that they were a lock to get back to the Super Bowl, Bears fans probably thought that they would be looking at another top draft pick. Half of our fans believe that we will be a bad team next year and the other half believes that we will be a decent or good team. One will be right, one will be wrong. Just like every season.


Fair enough, but right now my glass is half empty. Im not saying we are doomed to be cellar dwellers for years, im simply saying that next year probably wont be much better than this. To me, all of the games we lost (save for st. louis), we truely were outplayed in. heck, we didnt even look good enough to win in san francisco. I hope im wrong and we go 12-4..... Im just saying, new coach, new regime, first overall pick, atrocious last season, myriad of holes to fill....the writing on the wall says rebuilding to me.

Big B Texan Fan
02-21-2006, 01:21 AM
Because it just makes more sense to start over then!:sarcasm:
I feel the sarcasm.
But for real. Here's our big chance to nab either VY (who I prefer) or Leinert. 2 guys who've proved it. The past 2 season they have a combined 2 losses and no injuries and Championships and Heiman Candidacy and trophies and a Brinks truck of other trophies and the uncanny knack to win for extended periods of time as well as the ability to get your teammates to follow them. Carr had that 1 "Sold his Soul to the Devil" type season and we keep handing him the keys.....Carr wreck after Carr wreck (sorry, I coudn't help myself).

There is even less of a guarantee that the guys Tulexan mentioned (I like he mentioned Periloux is a "better VY", hmmm, a little homestate love for his boy....huh.....that's what I thought Tulexan) will be 1/2 as decorated and 1/2 as non-injured as Leinert and VY.

travfrancis
02-21-2006, 01:53 AM
three years from now you are going to have Ryan Perilloux (a better Vince Young)

i'm speechless.

swtbound07
02-21-2006, 01:57 AM
i'm speechless.


so thats what they mean by "shock and awe'

Big B Texan Fan
02-21-2006, 02:06 AM
so thats what they mean by "shock and awe'
No the true meaning will be newly defined if we draft Bush.

The "shock" is Bush breaking a great run and getting us into the red-zone. The "awe" is for "aw shucks" when Carr then takes us out of field-goal range with 3 straight sacks.

SESupergenius
02-21-2006, 10:17 AM
Refreshed?!?! By saying that you, like myself, are expecting the Texans to make the playoffs with the addition of Reggie Bush and a new coaching staff. There's no reason for them not to though, right?A team can go back to 7-9 from a 2-14 season just as easily as a 7-9 team can go 2-14. Capers had this team rise up in wins every years except for last year, there is not pattern there. The only pattern that was obvious was that we didn't bring in talent from Free Agency or the Draft to get us to the next level and wasted picks actually set us back.

Kaiser Toro
02-21-2006, 10:52 AM
The only pattern that was obvious was that we didn't bring in talent from Free Agency or the Draft to get us to the next level and wasted picks actually set us back.

Agreed, but I would also say that development of current players has been following a flatline as well.

tulexan
02-21-2006, 01:35 PM
i'm speechless.


Why are you so speechless? Perrilloux was just as highly recruited as Vince Young was. He is as fast or faster, has a stronger arm, is more accurate, and is only a few inches shorter than him.

And I'm not giving love to "my hometown boy" because I could care less about LSU. If I was giving love to "my hometown boy" I would be talking about Lester Ricard.

Vinny
02-21-2006, 01:47 PM
Perrilloux is a legend in his own mind. Spoiled arrogant and loud mouthed kid who is his own biggest fan.

stevo3883
02-21-2006, 01:48 PM
its gonna be Perri-who for the next 4 years.

self-proclaimed 2006 heisman trophy winner!

TreWardTxn
02-21-2006, 03:05 PM
So your rationale for drafting VY is that the team is in full rebuilding mode. That makes sense if you belive that, but I, as well as most other trade down/D'Brick guys, belive that the team isn't all that far from success.

We are going through a major transition, with a new coaching regime and new schemes and philosophies on both sides of the ball, but from a talent standpoint the team underachieved this past season. Just in '04 the team went 7-9, and most of us were shouting playoffs in '05. Capers & Co. tried to implement a system to reduce the sacks on offense, and for a while it worked (well actually, just the Bengals game), but it quickly proved an ineffective system, and coupled with Caper's/Pendry's conservative philosophies, the offense had trouble functioning. Worst of all, Carr's sack numbers went UP from '04.

Capers then ejected Sharper and Glenn in favor of younger, faster, more athletic guys. It sounded great at the time, and Sharper and Glenn were in the down of their careers, but the new guys (Buchanon & Greenwood) disappointed. Greenwood wasn't big or physical enough for the 3-4, and P-Buch couldn't handle the complex zone scheme and the lack of safety support from Coleman.

Kubiak is good at tailoring his scheme to his talent (tosses for Terrell Davis, cut running for Portis, play-action and bootlegs for Plummer) and is capable of bringing out the best on the offense, and his assistants on D will likely do the same. With upgrades at several postions, we could explode this coming season.

Oh and, D'Brick is being talked about as a rare type of talent, one who wasn't available last year or next year. We have an opportunity to address one of our actual needs with an elite prospect, rather than succumbing to flash and fluff.

D'Brick is a great takcle prospect, but two years ago scouts hailed Robert Gallery as the next coming of Lincoln Kennedy, and he very well might be, but he has not shown it yet. And even though I can't give you a name, I'm very certain there will be a great OL prospect in the top 5 within the next 2-3 years of the draft (hopefully we won't need him by then). Admittedly, this is a clash of football philosophies as much as anything. I do think the men upfront are the most important assest to any team, but I also believe a large part of O-line success is cohesiveness and familiarity; once Kubiak gets the guys at the positions they need to be, the O-line will have a chance to gel. It also seems to me that in this system, the center and guard positions are most important, as they do the bulk of the work to create room for the running game. The way we protect Carr (or any QB) is by using run-action against the D to freeze onrushing DEs and LBs. Plus, my argument wasn't just for taking Young, I said I think the Texans need to take one of these "generational" talents because we are not going to make the playoffs next year, we will challenge hopefully. I think to place any further expectations on Kubiak and his young staff and players is pretty unfair. Jim Mora did go to an NFC championship his first year, but he has a guy who, when healthy, is the most dynamic single threat in football. I think this is the Texan's chance to get a player that brings that type of dimension to this team. It comes as no surprise to me that Vick was hurt and Atlanta was horrible, he comes back and they make the playoffs, this year, he wasn't as good, and they missed the playoffs against improved competition.

But yeah, I think Young is more that guy than Bush...

TreWardTxn
02-21-2006, 03:25 PM
Next year you are going to have Brady Quinn (the next Tom Brady), two years from now you are going to have Brian Brohm (the next Peyton Manning), three years from now you are going to have Ryan Perilloux (a better Vince Young), four years from now you are going to have Jimmy Clausen (the best QB prospect in decades). If Carr turns out to be a bust over the next few years, we will have no problem getting the next transcendent QB of the NFL.

Ok, I haven't seen this guy's game yet, but he is not the combination of size, speed, and strength (on paper) that Young offers, and none of those other QBs are even capable of having the complete skill set that Young does. The closest thing might be Omar Jacobs and he has all the question marks Young does (throwing motion, throwing off balance) and the knock that he hasn't played against very talented defenses. I would throw Brad Smith in there, but he is going to a receiver in the NFL. So, although there are guys at the QB position who scouts are going to tell us how great they are, none of them have the innate ability, skills, and potential that Young does...

tulexan
02-21-2006, 03:42 PM
I realize that all of those QB's are different from Vince, but the point of the post was that each of the next four years, we are going to be hearing about the next great QB who has the potential to be the greatest of all time (in the eyes of the media). And Quinn and Brohm are going to be seasoned QBs with experience in a pro-style offense. If Clausen goes to USC, which I think he will because he is from SoCal, he will be another great QB with experience in a pro-style QB.

It's not like its Vince or no good QB ever again. If Carr still struggles (I don't think he will), then we will have a few years to pick our next franchise QB because there will be a plethora of great QB's available in the coming years.

TreWardTxn
02-21-2006, 03:53 PM
If we were getting consistently blown out last year then I would agree with you. But we lost several games by touchdown or less and that was with horrendous play calling and unmotivated players. And why is this a total rebuilding mode? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Panthers went to the Super Bowl two seasons after going 1-15 and the Chargers went from 4-12 to 12-4 in one season. With the parity of the NFL, going from last place to the playoffs in a season or two is not a ludicrous notion. You can have a great team become a bad team in one season and a bad team become a great team in one season. The Bears were a bad team for the last few years and they earned a first round bye in the playoffs this year. The Eagles were in the Super Bowl last year and finished last in their division this year. Things were bad this year, really bad, but with good coaching and a few good draft picks and free agent signings, who knows what this team could do. Could they go 4-12 next year? Sure. Could they go 12-4 next year? Sure. The Texans are a Peyton Manning injury away from being competitive in the AFC South next year. You never know what will happen every season. If you did, then you would be a very rich man. It would be like having tomorrow's Wall Street Journal.

Have you ever seen those NFL Network commercials where its set in the preseason and you have people saying stuff like "The Bears will be lucky to win 4 games this year" or "T.O. is a team player"? What makes those funny is that its so true. Every year most fans expect one thing and get something completely different. Eagles fans probably thought that they were a lock to get back to the Super Bowl, Bears fans probably thought that they would be looking at another top draft pick. Half of our fans believe that we will be a bad team next year and the other half believes that we will be a decent or good team. One will be right, one will be wrong. Just like every season.

Ok, the Texans lost 6 games by 7 points or less last year, one to basement mate San Fran. If we somehow manage to win all those games, we're back at 8 and 8 respectability, but in the loaded AFC that means no playoffs. Don't see any of the AFC playoffs teams getting worse this year, or teams in our division for that matter. The Texans were not injury plauged last year, we didn't have the year like the Charger's did when they lost 8 games by 4 points or less. Whatever the case, the Texans are more than one year away, and I don't think it's right to hold Kubiak and the new staff to that standard yet.

tulexan
02-21-2006, 04:12 PM
You never know what will happen to teams next year. There is an equal chance of this years AFC playoff teams not making the playoffs as there is that they will. Look at the NFC this year, there was 1 team that was in the playoffs both this year and last year.

stevo3883
02-21-2006, 04:24 PM
Ok, I haven't seen this guy's game yet, but he is not the combination of size, speed, and strength (on paper) that Young offers, and none of those other QBs are even capable of having the complete skill set that Young does. The closest thing might be Omar Jacobs and he has all the question marks Young does (throwing motion, throwing off balance) and the knock that he hasn't played against very talented defenses. I would throw Brad Smith in there, but he is going to a receiver in the NFL. So, although there are guys at the QB position who scouts are going to tell us how great they are, none of them have the innate ability, skills, and potential that Young does...

lol the reason you havent seen perri-who's game is because he's the third-string QB @ LSU.

swtbound07
02-21-2006, 05:01 PM
I realize that all of those QB's are different from Vince, but the point of the post was that each of the next four years, we are going to be hearing about the next great QB who has the potential to be the greatest of all time (in the eyes of the media). And Quinn and Brohm are going to be seasoned QBs with experience in a pro-style offense. If Clausen goes to USC, which I think he will because he is from SoCal, he will be another great QB with experience in a pro-style QB.

It's not like its Vince or no good QB ever again. If Carr still struggles (I don't think he will), then we will have a few years to pick our next franchise QB because there will be a plethora of great QB's available in the coming years.

How many years do you give him to struggle? Also....Are you hoping we will be high enough in a future draft to select a brady quinn?

thunderkyss
02-21-2006, 05:10 PM
So your rationale for drafting VY is that the team is in full rebuilding mode. That makes sense if you belive that, but I, as well as most other trade down/D'Brick guys, belive that the team isn't all that far from success.
Then there are some of us who think while the QB isn't a need, an upgrade would sure be welcomed.

Worst of all, Carr's sack numbers went UP from '04.
Something smells fishy........ we address this problem year, after year. Maybe... just maybe we are working on the wrong end of the problem.


Oh and, D'Brick is being talked about as a rare type of talent, one who wasn't available last year or next year. We have an opportunity to address one of our actual needs with an elite prospect, rather than succumbing to flash and fluff.

Just like David Carr. We have to let Kubiak do his job, and let him determine just how bad our need at Oline is. Does he have the people now, to work in his system. If he thinks we need to pass on the #1 overall, and trade down, so be it..... If he thinks it is a good idea to have a good plan B in place....

So be it.

thunderkyss
02-21-2006, 05:20 PM
It's not like its Vince or no good QB ever again. If Carr still struggles (I don't think he will), then we will have a few years to pick our next franchise QB because there will be a plethora of great QB's available in the coming years.

He more than likely won't struggle next year. He'd have to be quite dumb not to understand that he has to put on his best show in 2006. 2007 though... he'll more than likely flop around in the backfield again.

I personally would rather have a guy I trained myself, ready to go in that situation, than to just throw away the rest of that year, and hope to draft someone, or get someone in FA......

and while Brady Quinn will be coming out next year, and there might be someone as dynamic, as Vince, what would we have to give then, to get him??

kbourda
02-21-2006, 11:55 PM
How many years do you give him to struggle? Also....Are you hoping we will be high enough in a future draft to select a brady quinn?

On the for real, I think that's the plan.

TreWardTxn
02-22-2006, 01:51 AM
lol the reason you havent seen perri-who's game is because he's the third-string QB @ LSU.

Yeah, can you believe that somebody actually posted that this guy was the next, great thing coming? I don't care how big, fast, strong, or accurate he is; only a first class lame would ask a coach to guarantee his starting position over Vince Young. I thought sports were about competition. So he decides to go to LSU because he thinks he'll slab Russell, and oh, surprise, he ends up sitting on the bench. He might want to consider injuring himself in some not-too-serious way so he can take an extra medical redshirt year, then maybe he'll get some PT...

TreWardTxn
02-22-2006, 01:59 AM
I realize that all of those QB's are different from Vince, but the point of the post was that each of the next four years, we are going to be hearing about the next great QB who has the potential to be the greatest of all time (in the eyes of the media). And Quinn and Brohm are going to be seasoned QBs with experience in a pro-style offense. If Clausen goes to USC, which I think he will because he is from SoCal, he will be another great QB with experience in a pro-style QB.

It's not like its Vince or no good QB ever again. If Carr still struggles (I don't think he will), then we will have a few years to pick our next franchise QB because there will be a plethora of great QB's available in the coming years.

And I'm telling you that by then, we will look at what we coulda had, and we will cry...
Straight up, any of those guys could be great (who knows), what I'm saying is that they don't bring the skills and abilities to the table that Young does; talents, determination, football instinct. Sure those guys will all have their own package, but none of them will be this intriguing.

Oh yeah, any out there who believe Young is trash and don't think he has any talent viable at the next level, then you were not the intended audience for this post. Only people who have pondered the thought that he could be good...

tulexan
02-22-2006, 10:08 AM
Actually by then, Young will have had at most 1 season of playing and will probably still be struggling because of inexperience like every other rookie QB in the NFL.

jerek
02-22-2006, 11:09 AM
He is a young, healthy starter on the defensive line...i didnt say he was a superstar, but was trying to say that he is a piece that can stand as is and not need to be immediately addressed. Also, its a bit unfair to judge him on one nfl season...it took dewayne robertson 3 to become the DT he is right now....im not saying he is all world, but he isn't chopping block fodder (buchanon)

Travis Johnson was thrown out of practice/weight room on more than one occasion this year for half-assing it. If Capers and Co. threw a guy out of practice, how bad do you suppose he really is? Don't ask for my source because you won't get it, but my guy was there, he saw it, he calls it like it is, and no, he is not making up the story just so I can get on an anonymous message board and shoot down this particular opinion of yours.

Bottom line TJ was a lazy, hot-headed, me-first joke of a player at FSU and he is exactly that same player here in Houston, and whoever it was that plugged him for our draft should be fired for it (not saying it was Cass, since I don't know exactly where that call came from.) I hated the pick then, I hate it now that it has proven to be pretty much thoroughly predictable in terms of success or lack thereof, and I especially hate that Derrick Johnson rang up a modest 90+ tackles linebacking for KC while we are certain to capitalize on that big third rounder this year (sarcasm intended.) And take note, all of you Young bandwaggoners, I said it: I wanted Derrick Johnson last year, all the way. A UT guy. Sorry, I guess I'm not a closet Aggie after all.

Not saying TJ is beyond salvage - well, actually, I pretty much am - but he is hardly a piece of the solution to anything.

infantrycak
02-22-2006, 11:17 AM
Travis Johnson was thrown out of practice/weight room on more than one occasion this year for half-assing it. If Capers and Co. threw a guy out of practice, how bad do you suppose he really is?

Putting aside any source issues, that doesn't speak well of the former coaching staff's motivation skills IMO. So let's see, you are unhappy with someone only putting half-effort in so the response is take some time off? Guess those guys are the anti-drill sergeants. If his effort is in doubt, a better response would be more Parcell like and involve extra work, not less.

jerek
02-22-2006, 11:51 AM
Putting aside any source issues, that doesn't speak well of the former coaching staff's motivation skills IMO. So let's see, you are unhappy with someone only putting half-effort in so the response is take some time off? Guess those guys are the anti-drill sergeants. If his effort is in doubt, a better response would be more Parcell like and involve extra work, not less.

Absolutely agreed, but I think it was no secret that Capers and Co. were lacking in the motivational departments. I can't say that throwing him out was the wrong move - every player is different, sometimes tailoring discipline can be a good thing - but I suspect it had little or no impact.

TJ's attitude and moreso their response to it was just one more symptom of an ugly disease. Mind you that is only one small chapter of the story - I have no idea how they did or did not deal with him throughout the course of the season - but my point was that Travis Johnson allegedly had a history of attitude problems in Florida St, and if we decided we were going to draft him in spite of that, there should have been a solid plan in place. Better yet, we should have passed on him and picked up one of the best linebacking prospects in recent years, being that we run a 3-4 around the likes of Kailee Wong (good guy, smart player, but athletically nothing special) and Morlon Greenwood (overpaid, period.)

bigTEXan8
02-22-2006, 12:11 PM
His first year after that redshirt year (his 3rd year in college) was suspect at best. It was that "sell your soul" type of season in his 5th year.

No...Pat Hill has been doing this for a while. He usually sits his QBs till they are juniors, redshirting them the year before. He likes to have them see the game from the sidelines before they get onto the field. He did it with Volek, Carr. Planned on doing it with Pinegar, but that didn't quite work out. I think he's doing it that with Brandstater this year.

TreWardTxn
02-22-2006, 01:18 PM
Absolutely agreed, but I think it was no secret that Capers and Co. were lacking in the motivational departments. I can't say that throwing him out was the wrong move - every player is different, sometimes tailoring discipline can be a good thing - but I suspect it had little or no impact.

TJ's attitude and moreso their response to it was just one more symptom of an ugly disease. Mind you that is only one small chapter of the story - I have no idea how they did or did not deal with him throughout the course of the season - but my point was that Travis Johnson allegedly had a history of attitude problems in Florida St, and if we decided we were going to draft him in spite of that, there should have been a solid plan in place. Better yet, we should have passed on him and picked up one of the best linebacking prospects in recent years, being that we run a 3-4 around the likes of Kailee Wong (good guy, smart player, but athletically nothing special) and Morlon Greenwood (overpaid, period.)

The one thing that Capers gets credit for around the league is being a big motivational guy. I'm pretty sure that's one reason McNair brought him in as the inaugural coach, because he knew he would be working with a lot of young guys (and he started the Carolina franchise, albeit with veterans). Obviously, all motivation went out the window by week 3 2005, but during the 7-9 season, he was able to rally the troops a bit. Capers may not be a great coach, but you can't bring in a defensive minded guy and then not give him the tools to get the job done; honestly, Matt Stevens and Eric Brown were playing at one time I believe (I've tried to do my best to forget). And then when Capers actually had veteran leadership on the defense, we ship those guys off. Either way, what I'm saying is, we either had a coach who couldn't get effort (his rep doesn't support this), players who won't give effort (even worse, 'cause we're stuck with some), or both. Now, as far as offense is concerned, the staff was pretty much inept, which was kind of expected the first two years as an expansion team...

infantrycak
02-22-2006, 01:37 PM
Capers may not be a great coach, but you can't bring in a defensive minded guy and then not give him the tools to get the job done; honestly, Matt Stevens and Eric Brown were playing at one time I believe (I've tried to do my best to forget).

Yup, and despite being unfit for the NFL except as scrubs (let's also not forget couch sitter Jay Foreman) the unit was the 16th ranked D. Somehow last year the coaches managed to take their chosen upgrades to a 31st ranked D. JMO but the single greatest failure on D has already left the building--Fangio, with Capers in 2nd only because he let Fangio in the door and left him in control.

jerek
02-22-2006, 03:08 PM
The one thing that Capers gets credit for around the league is being a big motivational guy. I'm pretty sure that's one reason McNair brought him in as the inaugural coach, because he knew he would be working with a lot of young guys (and he started the Carolina franchise, albeit with veterans). Obviously, all motivation went out the window by week 3 2005, but during the 7-9 season, he was able to rally the troops a bit. Capers may not be a great coach, but you can't bring in a defensive minded guy and then not give him the tools to get the job done; honestly, Matt Stevens and Eric Brown were playing at one time I believe (I've tried to do my best to forget). And then when Capers actually had veteran leadership on the defense, we ship those guys off. Either way, what I'm saying is, we either had a coach who couldn't get effort (his rep doesn't support this), players who won't give effort (even worse, 'cause we're stuck with some), or both. Now, as far as offense is concerned, the staff was pretty much inept, which was kind of expected the first two years as an expansion team...

You may be right about the motivational aspect: there are other facets of coaching to blame besides being able to light a fire under the guys. Fangio's D was horrific from the word go. I would have killed to have Romeo Crennel running our defense.

In either case, Travis came with a serious set of "ifs" that our then staff either managed to stumble through obliviously, or has otherwise avoided dealing with.

TreWardTxn
02-22-2006, 03:47 PM
You may be right about the motivational aspect: there are other facets of coaching to blame besides being able to light a fire under the guys. Fangio's D was horrific from the word go. I would have killed to have Romeo Crennel running our defense.

In either case, Travis came with a serious set of "ifs" that our then staff either managed to stumble through obliviously, or has otherwise avoided dealing with.

There's no possible way to argue against that. I didn't even think the guy was that great at FSU, especially to be a top 20 pick? I hope the franchise doesn't continue with this propensity towards "do-over" drafts...

BMT Texan
02-22-2006, 11:52 PM
I think Carr "IS" a good qb,and Chris Palmer is mostly to blame for the weak offence with the weak ***** plays he called. However I feel Vince would be the better qb for us, that is unless we can trade down for D'brick or Mario to get more picks in this years draft aswell as a high pick next year with :drool: Adriean Peterson :drool: looming.

But back to my main point, Carr in Miami would be a good place for him start over, I think David can be a soild player ,it's just his upside is not as high as Vince's

Napa Auto Parts
02-23-2006, 12:39 AM
I think Carr "IS" a good qb,and Chris Palmer is mostly to blame for the weak offence with the weak ***** plays he called. However I feel Vince would be the better qb for us, that is unless we can trade down for D'brick or Mario to get more picks in this years draft aswell as a high pick next year with :drool: Adriean Peterson :drool: looming.

But back to my main point, Carr in Miami would be a good place for him start over, I think David can be a soild player ,it's just his upside is not as high as Vince's



i dounbt miami would want any piece of Carr miami could go after Drew Brees a real QB or josh mccown with out a doubt a better qb that carr at this time.

BMT Texan
02-23-2006, 01:56 AM
Although Brees will get alot of propective buyers he's coming off an injury, like Culpepper. David is young and healthy an if not in Miami there would be plenty of interest in him in other places like Oakland or any of many teams with poor qbs.......and he's better than Mccown...:ninja:

bklatch
02-23-2006, 12:53 PM
said who?

Anybody that knows football. DC could not hold Vince's jock.