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Grndzro
02-10-2006, 04:07 PM
I wanted to offer a perspective to everyone on the boards and try to get everyone to understand how the talent level on the team overall effects a quarterbacks play. So I decided to do some research and compare the first four years of David Carr’s career to Hall of Famer Troy Aikman. Since Carr started with an expansion team and in Aikman’s first year the team was 1-15. Good starting point for both I think. So I will list the first four years and the statistics and then go into more detail on the 4th year. Since everyone expects a quarterback to be at their potential at that point.

1st Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int sacks/Yds
Carr 16 233 444 52.5 2592 9/15 N/A
Aikman 11 155 293 52.9 1749 9/18 N/A

2nd Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int Sacks/Yds
Carr 12 167 295 56.6 2013 9/13 N/A
Aikman 15 226 399 56.6 2579 11/18 N/A

3rd Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int Sacks/Yds
Carr 16 285 466 61.2 3531 16/14 49/301
Aikman 12 237 363 65.3 2754 11/10 32/224

4th Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int Sacks/Yds
Carr 16 256 423 60.5 2488 14/11 68/424
Aikman 16 302 473 63.8 3445 23/14 23/112

As everyone can see, Carr was progressing the first three years on par with what Aikman did. Now comes the dreaded 4th year where everyone decides Carr sucks and he needs to be ran out of town. Just look at the numbers, in the 4th year Aikman took his team to the Super bowl while Carr took his team to the number 1 pick. After looking at the numbers I said to myself something must be wrong, lets look at the team as a whole. I mean it is a team game, regardless of what some VY lovers will tell you. So lets start by comparing the two units that actually do the dirty work. The offensive line:

Texans Pro-bowler Cowboys Pro-bowler
Riley/Pitts No E. Williams Yes
Pitts/Brown No N. Newton Yes
Mckinney No Stepnoski Yes
Weigert/Weary No Gogan Yes
Wade/Weigert No Tuinei Yes
Sacks allowed – 68/424 Sacks allowed – 23/112

I know what you are saying, Carr runs into sacks and runs out of bounds with the ball. I agree that he does, but I am willing to bet that it is more because of the line than not. I know this still doesn’t mean anything. So let’s look at this a bit further. Let’s look at the offensive supporting cast. Now VY can win games on his own, but mere mortals need help, so lets break them down:

Rushing
Texans
Davis – 230 att – 976 yds – 4.2 yds/c – 2 TD
Wells - 90 - 325 - 3.6 - 4
Morency – 46 - 184 - 4.0 - 2

Cowboys
Smith – 373 – 1713yds – 4.6 yds/c – 18 TD

Receiving
Texans Cowboys
Johnson – 63 rec – 688 yds -10.7 av.– 2 TD Irvin – 78 - 1396 - 17.9 - 7 Gaffney – 55 - 492 - 8.9 - 2 Harper – 35 - 562 -16.1- 4TD
Bradford – 34 - 436 - 12.8 - 5 Martin – 32 - 359 - 11.2- 3TD
Rivers - 24 168 - 7.0 - 0 Novacek – 68 – 630 - 9.3- 6TD

Defense
Texans Cowboys
NFL Ranking 31 1st


So in conclusion I think by looking at the numbers that maybe, just maybe Carr has gotten a lot of blame that is not justified. Everyone’s question is can a Carr take the Texans to the Super Bowl? Well Aikman did, and the stats say Carr is just as good, its just Aikman had a all pro supporting cast. Maybe I am wrong, maybe the numbers lie. I am sure many will spin the numbers to justify what they think. I just wanted to give a different view instead of all the man love for VY that is going on around here. Oh and by the way, one more thing, Emmitt Smith was 5’-9 210 pds and Reggie Bush is 6’-0 205 pds. So I guess size is not a question. All the Carr haters and VY slobber monsters can fire away.

Grndzro
02-10-2006, 04:11 PM
Sorry about the stats being off, I could not get it to adjust correctly.:homer:

Dr. Toro
02-10-2006, 04:15 PM
Hey.... interesting comparison. Carr's stats don't bother me so much as the way he appears in the pocket. You may be right that it's the offensive line to blame. Appearances can be misleading and maybe those 1-3 year comparison are what matters.

To me, the regression this year is alarming. Either it was the perfect storm of Johnson injury, no-TE/#2 receiver, poor line play, coaching turmoil, conservative offense that caused Carr to take two steps back or year 3 was the aberration. We may never know.

Grndzro
02-10-2006, 04:20 PM
I tend to go with the fact that the team was bad as a whole and therefore everything sucked. Its just the quarterback is always going to get the blame.

zeplin
02-10-2006, 04:32 PM
Good work. This is all big picture type stuff. Hopefully the Carr haters will be able to unbiasly look at this comparison without the VY goggles slamming down over their eyes.

Hardcore Texan
02-10-2006, 04:32 PM
I like it, it is nice to see the comparison, I still think Carr will flourish under Kubiak, and be a great QB.

Grid
02-10-2006, 04:34 PM
good post.. pretty interesting.

chapone22
02-10-2006, 04:52 PM
Are you looking at the same stats ????Carr Is up and down like a Yo Yo .Aikman stats get better every year..And how can you compare and Expansion team who gets first round drafts and time to build a team to a 1- 15 team there is no comparing ...Wake up and get your head out of the sand Carr is a backup quarterback nothing more..So If he is back next year look for a another year the Texans watching the playoffs at Home.....

Grndzro
02-10-2006, 05:00 PM
Actually Chappy, it is you who did not pay attention to the stats. In many ways Carr did better than Aikman until the 4th year. Both had years that they had injuries and had similar stats if you compare the number of games played. I was also comparing the team as a whole to show how a quarterback can look good or bad depending on the teams play and talent. Now if you think that Carr behind the 1992 Cowboy line could not throw up similar numbers to Aikman then thats your opinion, but i think he could. Now if you want to come at me with some facts then go for it, but if all you have is silly head in the sand dribble then go hump somone elses leg.

run-david-run
02-10-2006, 07:32 PM
Another thing, Aikman is a Hall of Fame Qb. Yet despite that supporting cast, Aikman never threw for 4000 yards in a season. Carr threw for 3500 yards in year 3, when AJ was healthy and the line wasnt that bad, and we threw downfield. My question is, how can we forget that so quickly? The guy threw for 3500 yds while still being the most sacked QB. There must be talent there! He also has thrwon more TD's then Int's in the last two years. The talent is there, if he can get the coaching and supporting cast to show it off, we are all going to be very happy about this contract extension.

edo783
02-10-2006, 07:37 PM
Another thing, Aikman is a Hall of Fame Qb. Yet despite that supporting cast, Aikman never threw for 4000 yards in a season. Carr threw for 3500 yards in year 3, when AJ was healthy and the line wasnt that bad, and we threw downfield. My question is, how can we forget that so quickly? The guy threw for 3500 yds while still being the most sacked QB. There must be talent there! He also has thrwon more TD's then Int's in the last two years. The talent is there, if he can get the coaching and supporting cast to show it off, we are all going to be very happy about this contract extension.

Good post and spot on.

rmartin65
02-10-2006, 07:38 PM
Another thing, Aikman is a Hall of Fame Qb. Yet despite that supporting cast, Aikman never threw for 4000 yards in a season. Carr threw for 3500 yards in year 3, when AJ was healthy and the line wasnt that bad, and we threw downfield. My question is, how can we forget that so quickly? The guy threw for 3500 yds while still being the most sacked QB. There must be talent there! He also has thrwon more TD's then Int's in the last two years. The talent is there, if he can get the coaching and supporting cast to show it off, we are all going to be very happy about this contract extension.
Great post, I never noticed that.

Koolbrz
02-10-2006, 09:15 PM
I wanted to offer a perspective to everyone on the boards and try to get everyone to understand how the talent level on the team overall effects a quarterbacks play. So I decided to do some research and compare the first four years of David Carr’s career to Hall of Famer Troy Aikman. Since Carr started with an expansion team and in Aikman’s first year the team was 1-15. Good starting point for both I think. So I will list the first four years and the statistics and then go into more detail on the 4th year. Since everyone expects a quarterback to be at their potential at that point.

1st Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int sacks/Yds
Carr 16 233 444 52.5 2592 9/15 N/A
Aikman 11 155 293 52.9 1749 9/18 N/A

2nd Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int Sacks/Yds
Carr 12 167 295 56.6 2013 9/13 N/A
Aikman 15 226 399 56.6 2579 11/18 N/A

3rd Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int Sacks/Yds
Carr 16 285 466 61.2 3531 16/14 49/301
Aikman 12 237 363 65.3 2754 11/10 32/224

4th Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int Sacks/Yds
Carr 16 256 423 60.5 2488 14/11 68/424
Aikman 16 302 473 63.8 3445 23/14 23/112

As everyone can see, Carr was progressing the first three years on par with what Aikman did. Now comes the dreaded 4th year where everyone decides Carr sucks and he needs to be ran out of town. Just look at the numbers, in the 4th year Aikman took his team to the Super bowl while Carr took his team to the number 1 pick. After looking at the numbers I said to myself something must be wrong, lets look at the team as a whole. I mean it is a team game, regardless of what some VY lovers will tell you. So lets start by comparing the two units that actually do the dirty work. The offensive line:

Texans Pro-bowler Cowboys Pro-bowler
Riley/Pitts No E. Williams Yes
Pitts/Brown No N. Newton Yes
Mckinney No Stepnoski Yes
Weigert/Weary No Gogan Yes
Wade/Weigert No Tuinei Yes
Sacks allowed – 68/424 Sacks allowed – 23/112

I know what you are saying, Carr runs into sacks and runs out of bounds with the ball. I agree that he does, but I am willing to bet that it is more because of the line than not. I know this still doesn’t mean anything. So let’s look at this a bit further. Let’s look at the offensive supporting cast. Now VY can win games on his own, but mere mortals need help, so lets break them down:

Rushing
Texans
Davis – 230 att – 976 yds – 4.2 yds/c – 2 TD
Wells - 90 - 325 - 3.6 - 4
Morency – 46 - 184 - 4.0 - 2

Cowboys
Smith – 373 – 1713yds – 4.6 yds/c – 18 TD

Receiving
Texans Cowboys
Johnson – 63 rec – 688 yds -10.7 av.– 2 TD Irvin – 78 - 1396 - 17.9 - 7 Gaffney – 55 - 492 - 8.9 - 2 Harper – 35 - 562 -16.1- 4TD
Bradford – 34 - 436 - 12.8 - 5 Martin – 32 - 359 - 11.2- 3TD
Rivers - 24 168 - 7.0 - 0 Novacek – 68 – 630 - 9.3- 6TD

Defense
Texans Cowboys
NFL Ranking 31 1st


So in conclusion I think by looking at the numbers that maybe, just maybe Carr has gotten a lot of blame that is not justified. Everyone’s question is can a Carr take the Texans to the Super Bowl? Well Aikman did, and the stats say Carr is just as good, its just Aikman had a all pro supporting cast. Maybe I am wrong, maybe the numbers lie. I am sure many will spin the numbers to justify what they think. I just wanted to give a different view instead of all the man love for VY that is going on around here. Oh and by the way, one more thing, Emmitt Smith was 5’-9 210 pds and Reggie Bush is 6’-0 205 pds. So I guess size is not a question. All the Carr haters and VY slobber monsters can fire away.


Great post dude, only problem is some of these guys do not think that stats mean a thing. I can't figure out why? Anyways, great job and looking forward to Carr shutting up all the nay sayers in the coming yrs. I bet they will jump on that bandwagon when it happens...:)

GoBlue
02-10-2006, 09:33 PM
Very nice post. I don't think we should confuse Carr with Aikman (one of them is in the Hall of Fame), but Carr has enough talent to get us there. He just can't do it alone/with people holding him down (I'm looking at you Pendry).

For crying out loud, people in Detroit think Mike Martz is going to make Joey Harrington into Kurt Warner (in his prime, not as he is with the Cardinals). The least we can do is give our football people a bit of credit for knowing what they are doing and keeping Carr around.

PapaL
02-12-2006, 09:58 AM
As far as problems with the offense, I think this is one of the bigger problems:
HOU
Rivers - 24 168 - 7.0 - 0

DAL
Novacek – 68 – 630 - 9.3- 6TD

44 catches is a big difference, especially for a young QB. You'd have to believe if David could have throw even 22 more passes to his TE, his sack numbers would read a whole lot less.

Wolf
02-12-2006, 10:44 AM
As far as problems with the offense, I think this is one of the bigger problems:
HOU
Rivers - 24 168 - 7.0 - 0

DAL
Novacek – 68 – 630 - 9.3- 6TD

44 catches is a big difference, especially for a young QB. You'd have to believe if David could have throw even 22 more passes to his TE, his sack numbers would read a whole lot less.

thanks ! saved me some typing about TE's

touttail
02-13-2006, 06:26 AM
As everyone can see, Carr was progressing the first three years on par with what Aikman did. Now comes the dreaded 4th year where everyone decides Carr sucks and he needs to be ran out of town. Just look at the numbers, in the 4th year Aikman took his team to the Super bowl while Carr took his team to the number 1 pick. After looking at the numbers I said to myself something must be wrong, lets look at the team as a whole. .

My gosh, just look at the offense Carr had to run. No check off to a pass play, run only. No downfield plays called by the offensive co-ordinators. Run the first two downs, then pass on 3rd. down. The first 3 years the offense was somewhat more open. Last year it was so conservative, no one could accumulate any kind of stats, except for the opposing defense.

Bobby 119C

thunderkyss
02-13-2006, 07:49 AM
I wanted to offer a perspective to everyone on the boards and try to get everyone to understand how the talent level on the team overall effects a quarterbacks play.You're not the only one who understands football/talent. I understand completely how the talent level of the team can effect the play of the quarterback. Look, do you have a problem picking out a bad player on a good team?? What about an outstanding talent on an average team?? Do you think you can find one player on the SuperBowl Raven's defense that didn't carry his share of the load?? It's the same thing here. Some people think Carr's got it, some people don't. Compare Aikman's stats to Aaron Brooks, and let's see what we got. Think Aaron Brooks is going to take anyone to the SuperBowl?? think he desrves one more year?? Do you think he has talent?? So I decided to do some research and compare the first four years of David Carr’s career to Hall of Famer Troy Aikman. Since Carr started with an expansion team and in Aikman’s first year the team was 1-15. Good starting point for both I think. So I will list the first four years and the statistics and then go into more detail on the 4th year. Since everyone expects a quarterback to be at their potential at that point. see the problem with using words like everyone expects... you aren't ever right. I don't think Steve McNair was anywhere close to his peak, in his 4th year. But I knew he was going to be an NFL star in his 3rd year...... the first year he really got to play.


1st Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int sacks/Yds
Brooks 5 113 194 58.2 1514 9/6 15/94
Carr 16 233 444 52.5 2592 9/15 N/A
Aikman 11 155 293 52.9 1749 9/18 N/A

2nd Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int Sacks/Yds
Brooks 16 312 558 55.9 3832 26/22 50/330
Carr 12 167 295 56.6 2013 9/13 N/A
Aikman 15 226 399 56.6 2579 11/18 N/A

3rd Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int Sacks/Yds
Brooks 16 283 528 53.6 3572 27/15 36/236
Carr 16 285 466 61.2 3531 16/14 49/301
Aikman 12 237 363 65.3 2754 11/10 32/224

4th Year Games Comp Att Pct Yards TD/Int Sacks/Yds
Brooks 16 306 518 59.1 3546 24/8 34/195
Carr 16 256 423 60.5 2488 14/11 68/424
Aikman 16 302 473 63.8 3445 23/14 23/112

As everyone can see, Carr was progressing the first three years on par with what Aikman did. Now comes the dreaded 4th year where everyone decides Carr sucks and he needs to be ran out of town. Just look at the numbers, in the 4th year Aikman took his team to the Super bowl while Carr took his team to the number 1 pick. A lot of people thought Carr sucked from the word go. I've never thought he was a franchise QB. After looking at the numbers I said to myself something must be wrong, lets look at the team as a whole. I mean it is a team game, regardless of what some VY lovers will tell you. So lets start by comparing the two units that actually do the dirty work. The offensive line:

Texans Pro-bowler Cowboys Pro-bowler
Riley/Pitts No E. Williams Yes
Pitts/Brown No N. Newton Yes
Mckinney No Stepnoski Yes
Weigert/Weary No Gogan Yes
Wade/Weigert No Tuinei Yes
Sacks allowed – 68/424 Sacks allowed – 23/112

Aaron Brooks did have ProBowler Willie Roaf for his first two years in New Orleans. Funny how people can spot that talent, on an otherwise pitiful O-Line. Aaron was sacked 135 for 855 yards. Heck, in their last three years, Brooks and Carr were both sacked for 131 times. Brooks' numbers are still better for the last three years.

I know what you are saying, Carr runs into sacks and runs out of bounds with the ball. I agree that he does, but I am willing to bet that it is more because of the line than not. I know this still doesn’t mean anything. So let’s look at this a bit further. Let’s look at the offensive supporting cast. Now VY can win games on his own, but mere mortals need help, so lets break them down:

Rushing
Texans
Davis – 230 att – 976 yds – 4.2 yds/c – 2 TD
Wells - 90 - 325 - 3.6 - 4
Morency – 46 - 184 - 4.0 - 2

Cowboys
Smith – 373 – 1713yds – 4.6 yds/c – 18 TD

Saints
Antowain Smith 166att -659yds -3TDs
Aaron Stecker 95att -363yds -0TDs
McAllister- 93att -335yds -3 TD
Aaron Brooks 45att -281yds -2TD


Receiving
Texans Cowboys
Johnson – 63 rec – 688 yds -10.7 av.– 2 TD Irvin – 78 - 1396 - 17.9 - 7 Gaffney – 55 - 492 - 8.9 - 2 Harper – 35 - 562 -16.1- 4TD
Bradford – 34 - 436 - 12.8 - 5 Martin – 32 - 359 - 11.2- 3TD
Rivers - 24 168 - 7.0 - 0 Novacek – 68 – 630 - 9.3- 6TD

Saints
Horn-49 rec- 654yds - 13.3av -1TDs
Stallworth - 70 rec- 945 yds - 13.5avg -7 TDs
Hakim -34 rec- 489 yds - 14.4 av -2TD

Defense
Texans Saints Cowboys
NFL Ranking 31 13 1st


So in conclusion I think by looking at the numbers that maybe, just maybe Carr(Brooks) has gotten a lot of blame that is not justified. Everyone’s question is can a Carr take the Texans to the Super Bowl? Well Aikman did, and the stats say Carr(Brooks) is just as good, its just Aikman had a all pro supporting cast. Maybe I am wrong, maybe the numbers lie. I am sure many will spin the numbers to justify what they think. I just wanted to give a different view instead of all the man love for VY that is going on around here. Oh and by the way, one more thing, Emmitt Smith was 5’-9 210 pds and Reggie Bush is 6’-0 205 pds. So I guess size is not a question. All the Carr haters and VY slobber monsters can fire away. 5'9" 210 pds is bigger than 6'-0" 205 pounds. @ 6'0" Reggie needs to be closer to 215 to be of comparable size to Emmitt.


Great post dude, only problem is some of these guys do not think that stats mean a thing. I can't figure out why? Anyways, great job and looking forward to Carr shutting up all the nay sayers in the coming yrs. I bet they will jump on that bandwagon when it happens...:)
I can't figure out why either......... 3000passing Yards. 1000 rushing yards. Leads league in Regular season for passing effieciency...

thunderkyss
02-13-2006, 08:07 AM
One more thing I want to add to this whole thing. Let's look at what Dom Capers did with the Panthers, then look at what he did with Houston. Remember, we wanted Capers, because he had early success with Franchise teams.

I'm sure, there are many differences between our team, and those Carolina Panthers. (who along with the Jacksonville Jaguars aren't much older than the Houston Texans, but both have winning traditions) But one difference with our team an Carolina(and Jacksonville) is that in Carolina, used a veteran Quarterback. Jacksonville did too. Neither team had a problem choosing a better QB than the one they previously had. I'll take Carr over Kerry Collins, but if Kerry is struggling with a team, you'll need more than David Carr to fix that team. But my point is...... I wonder how much Caper's hands were tied because playing David Carr was more of a job requirement than personal preference.

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 08:21 AM
Hey.... interesting comparison. Carr's stats don't bother me so much as the way he appears in the pocket. You may be right that it's the offensive line to blame. Appearances can be misleading and maybe those 1-3 year comparison are what matters.

To me, the regression this year is alarming. Either it was the perfect storm of Johnson injury, no-TE/#2 receiver, poor line play, coaching turmoil, conservative offense that caused Carr to take two steps back or year 3 was the aberration. We may never know.


I don't see a regression in the stats. There isn't the progression, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a regression. The % was there, the INTs are down, the TDs are about the same, but down a little, and the yards are down. He had a couple of horrible statistical games that really hurt his numbers. I think most people here could care less about the numbers if the team were winning. Unfortunately that didn't happen.

Where I did see a regression is in the pocket. I think 206 sacks in 4 years has caused him to be quick to run out and into the arms of DEs. It's not like he has ever been able to step into a pocket to make a pass. McKinney gets bullrushed by long wispy string and gives Carr nowhere to go. He has got to have the time and he has got to learn how to stay and make the play.

TexanBacker93
02-13-2006, 08:49 AM
I'm sure, there are many differences between our team, and those Carolina Panthers. (who along with the Jacksonville Jaguars aren't much older than the Houston Texans, but both have winning traditions) But one difference with our team an Carolina(and Jacksonville) is that in Carolina, used a veteran Quarterback. Jacksonville did too. Neither team had a problem choosing a better QB than the one they previously had. I'll take Carr over Kerry Collins, but if Kerry is struggling with a team, you'll need more than David Carr to fix that team. But my point is...... I wonder how much Caper's hands were tied because playing David Carr was more of a job requirement than personal preference.

I wouldn't say either necessarily have "winning traditions" Carolina was 7-9 in 1997, 4-12 in 1998, 8-8 in 1999, 7-9 in 2000, 1-15 in 2001, then 7-9 in 2002, and 7-9 again in 2004 after their Super Bowl appearance.

Jacksonville was 4-12 in 2000, 6-10 in 2001, 6-10 in 2002, and 5-11 in 2003.

I think of the Steelers who have had only 3 losing seasons of out the last 14 as a winning tradition. Playoffs in 10 of those years. Carolina went to the NFC Championship game in their 2nd season and then fall back to the bottom of the heap. Since their 1-15 season they've done the playoffs/.500 dance. The Jags also went to the Championship game in their second season, but they actually peaked a few seasons later with a 14-2 record. I can't recall exactly what fell of their bus. They still had the same players, but struggled to win games. They ended up with 4 straight losing seasons before they finally hit 9 wins.

Carolina used Kerry Collins who was their 1st ever draft choice and Jacksonville used Mark Brunell who was a 2nd year player from Green Bay. Both of them essentially started rookie QBs. I'm not sure which veteran QB you are thinking of for them.

Jacksonville kept Brunell for 8 years before he got hurt and they gave the reigns to Leftwich, who was also a rookie. Carolina kept Collins as the main squeeze for only 3 years. Beuerlein took over for Collins in the team's 4th season and stayed around for 3 years. They drafted Weinke and he didn't do it for them, they tried Peete the next season, and finally hit paydirt with Jake Delhomme who came from the Saints. Good choice Haslett. Keep Brooks. Get rid of Delhomme. Beurlein and Peete were the veterans that Carolina used. Pretty much journeymen at that point. Beurelein had a couple of very good years for them, but he was in his mid 30s then. Not exactly someone you can keep around forever.

thunderkyss
02-13-2006, 08:55 AM
I wouldn't say either necessarily have "winning traditions" Carolina was 7-9 in 1997, 4-12 in 1998, 8-8 in 1999, 7-9 in 2000, 1-15 in 2001, then 7-9 in 2002, and 7-9 again in 2004 after their Super Bowl appearance.

Jacksonville was 4-12 in 2000, 6-10 in 2001, 6-10 in 2002, and 5-11 in 2003.

Carolina used Kerry Collins who was their 1st ever draft choice and Jacksonville used Mark Brunell who was a 2nd year player from Green Bay. Both of them essentially started rookie QBs. I'm not sure which veteran QB you are thinking of for them.


I didn't realize they drafted Kerry Collins. I thought both he and Brunell both came off benches.... I was really thinking Brunell was on GreenBays Bench for two years.... So I got that wrong.

HoustonFrog
02-13-2006, 09:27 AM
The first post was a very nice post, however I don't think Carr can compare to Aikman no matter his first three years. You are right, Dallas' talent level was rising and much better than the Texans so Aikman's numbers didn't have to be huge. I think certain players fit in certain systems. Who is to say that Aikman could not have put up Marino type numbers if he didn't have a back and they threw first. He didn't have to, however, and his numbers were always good but not top of the line. Aikman's difference came in playoff games. The guy was one of the most accurate passers in playoff history. He also won more games than any player in any decade in the 90s. Then you can look at things we argue about here all day..pocket presence, accuracy, leadership, etc. I liked Carr in the first 3 years but at the end of the 3rd is when he started to worry me. That is when I noticed the taking more sacks then needed by not throwing it away. To tell you the truth, and I know this is subjective for all of us, I was more peeved this year at what I saw as his attitude change. He seemed more worried about putting his hair behind his ears and smiling for the camera after losses. I heard the practice and leadership issues. Right now I want him to do well but I guess, as a fan, he is in "win me back" stage. Again, good numbers to start though.

Vinny
02-13-2006, 09:31 AM
The first post was a very nice post, however I don't think Carr can compare to Aikman no matter his first three years. You are right, Dallas' talent level was rising and much better than the Texans so Aikman's numbers didn't have to be huge. I think certain players fit in certain systems. Who is to say that Aikman could not have put up Marino type numbers if he didn't have a back and they threw first. He didn't have to, however, and his numbers were always good but not top of the line. Aikman's difference came in playoff games. The guy was one of the most accurate passers in playoff history. He also won more games than any player in any decade in the 90s. Then you can look at things we argue about here all day..pocket presence, accuracy, leadership, etc. I liked Carr in the first 3 years but at the end of the 3rd is when he started to worry me. That is when I noticed the taking more sacks then needed by not throwing it away. To tell you the truth, and I know this is subjective for all of us, I was more peeved this year at whay I saw as his attitude change. He seemed more worried about putting his hair behind his ears and smiling for the camera after losses. I heard the practice and leadership issues. Right now I want him to do well but I guess, as a fan, he is in "wine me back" stage. Again, good numbers to start though.Aikman's worth was keeping drives alive...converting 3rd downs...making good decisions in clutch situations. You can't see that in a stat line, just like you can't see the lack of Carr's intangibles in a stat line.

HoustonFrog
02-13-2006, 09:39 AM
Aikman's worth was keeping drives alive...converting 3rd downs...making good decisions in clutch situations. You can't see that in a stat line, just like you can't see the lack of Carr's intangibles in a stat line.

Agreed completely. I think Aikman threw one of the best balls I have seen and when it was crunch time he could put his throws exactly where they needed to be. People always talk about talent around him but you still have to make the plays.

Vinny
02-13-2006, 09:41 AM
Agreed completely. I think Aikman threw one of the best balls I have seen and when it was crunch time he could put his throws exactly where they needed to be. People always talk about talent around him but you still have to make the plays.Yep...football isn't like baseball where everyone gets equal at bats. You have to earn your possessions and you have to make plays in pressure situations....completing simple passes on 3rd down or not taking a sack putting your team in a poor situations. Little things keep drives alive and give you more opportunities to make a clutch play.

swtbound07
02-13-2006, 11:07 AM
Aikman's worth was keeping drives alive...converting 3rd downs...making good decisions in clutch situations. You can't see that in a stat line, just like you can't see the lack of Carr's intangibles in a stat line.

not saying i disagree with you vinny, and im certainly not promoting the viewpoint of skip bayless...but according to him, aikman choked under pressure and it was basically michael irvin who carried that team
link
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/060210

vtech9
02-13-2006, 11:17 AM
not saying i disagree with you vinny, and im certainly not promoting the viewpoint of skip bayless...but according to him, aikman choked under pressure and it was basically michael irvin who carried that team
link
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/060210
Well, there ya go...look at the source. Skip Bayless and Woody Paige aren't guys I would value the opinion of. Aikman was a good leader, and was pretty damned good under pressure. I hate the Cowboys. I had them shoved down my throat for years, because that's the only game I could get where I was living. Even though I hate them, I have to admit that Bayless is wrong about Aikman.

thunderkyss
02-13-2006, 11:22 AM
Well, there ya go...look at the source. Skip Bayless and Woody Paige aren't guys I would value the opinion of. Aikman was a good leader, and was pretty damned good under pressure. I hate the Cowboys. I had them shoved down my throat for years, because that's the only game I could get where I was living. Even though I hate them, I have to admit that Bayless is wrong about Aikman.


I like how Michael Irvin puts it, when He talks about those Glory days. Paraphrasing:

" When I looked back behind the Center, that wasn't just my Quarterback asking me to go across the middle, That was MY BOY... I'd do anything for MY BOY, but I won't go across the middle for any ole quarterback."

infantrycak
02-13-2006, 11:23 AM
not saying i disagree with you vinny, and im certainly not promoting the viewpoint of skip bayless...but according to him, aikman choked under pressure and it was basically michael irvin who carried that team
link
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/060210

What Bayless is doing is advocating for Irvin and in doing so feels the need to scorn Aikman to try to make Irvin look better. Hmmm, where have I seen that tactic used recently? Anyway, IMO the one thing he is correct on is Irvin does deserve in the Hall of Fame and off the field issues which are not supposed to count are the only things keeping him from getting in.

HoustonFrog
02-13-2006, 11:52 AM
What Bayless is doing is advocating for Irvin and in doing so feels the need to scorn Aikman to try to make Irvin look better. Hmmm, where have I seen that tactic used recently? Anyway, IMO the one thing he is correct on is Irvin does deserve in the Hall of Fame and off the field issues which are not supposed to count are the only things keeping him from getting in.

Skip Bayless is a fiction writer and knows less about sports than anyone on this board. I'll pick anyone he doesn't. He said UT was a joke before the Rose Bowl and then after they won he wrote a kiss tail piece. He said the Seahawks couldn't make it to the SB and then ate those words. His best sellers about the Cowboys were so full of b.s. He didn't like Aikman because Aikman wouldn't give him the time of day. Irvin was a strong personality and leader but Aikman was the glue. Bayless is also the one who was stirring the "Aikman is gay" stuff. He is a fraud and basically says and writes things to make people mad. He is a little fella who has a huge chip. Moron.

Grndzro
02-13-2006, 11:56 AM
Vinny, I agree with you about the clutch thing, but at the same time you have to look at the flip side. How many times did aikman make a bad pass and the talent around him make him look better, or that extra effort by E. Smith getting a piece of a rusher giving Aikman the confidence to move a side step to make a throw. In Carr's defense, how many times did he try to make something happen, throw an accurate throw and his talent dropped it, or fumbled it or completely whiff on a block. I was trying to just compare talent and how they change the look of a quarterback. You have to have confidence in the team around you as a quarterback. What has this team done to give any confidence to anybody. You of all people should see the lack of overall talent on this team.

swtbound07
02-13-2006, 12:07 PM
shrugs...i was by no means saying skip bayless is valid for anything, just thought since my memory is rather faulty i would introduce another perspective

Wordem
02-13-2006, 09:43 PM
" When I looked back behind the Center, that wasn't just my Quarterback asking me to go across the middle, That was MY BOY... I'd do anything for MY BOY, but I won't go across the middle for any ole quarterback."

This is why David Carr will never be a Troy Aikman. I have yet to hear or read about any of his teammates coming to his defense. He's trade bait.

touttail
02-14-2006, 07:06 AM
One more thing I want to add to this whole thing. Let's look at what Dom Capers did with the Panthers, then look at what he did with Houston. Remember, we wanted Capers, because he had early success with Franchise teams..

I've said time and time again, Capers was hired for his organizational skills, not his coaching skills.

Bobby 119C