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View Full Version : Kiper: This draft is NOT deep at o-line.


GP
02-10-2006, 09:56 AM
I'm sure this'll get yanked from the bullpen forum...but I reckon if we can have Reggie and Vince posts on here, we might be able to give 'Brick some face time, too.

In a mailbag item from ESPN Insider Mel Kiper, a Jets fan asks about 'Brick and if the Jets should take him even though this draft is "deep" at o-line.

Kiper responds that this draft is NOT as deep as he had projected at the beginning of the college season. Says a LOT of hot prospects never materialized into what he had projected.

Vinny
02-10-2006, 09:58 AM
Just me, but I wasn't impressed with the top OL prospects when I watched the games. I think the OL prospects were a bit overvalued early on.

infantrycak
02-10-2006, 09:59 AM
What did you think of Mangold? He sure looked good in the Senior Bowl practices IMO.

Vinny
02-10-2006, 10:02 AM
What did you think of Mangold? He sure looked good in the Senior Bowl practices IMO.I'd love to see Mangold here. I don't consider him a dominating type player but he is quick, smart and has a frame that will mature and enable him to add a few pounds of muscle in his lower body.....probably perfect for a lighter quicker line. He may struggle a bit with super big NT's. We need to get meaner on the line too...and I didn't notice a mean streak...but he is supposedly has one.

nunusguy
02-10-2006, 10:03 AM
Yea, I got a glance at one of Kiper's mocks awhile back and noticed he didn't
have but 2 or 3 OTs, which suggets he and his people think this Draft is overrated at that position, since so many mocks have a half a dozen or so
OTs in the 1st round. And I think in particular Ferguson is overrated because
there are real concerns about his ability as a run blocker. So there is some
downside with the Ferguson pick.

infantrycak
02-10-2006, 10:09 AM
I'd love to see Mangold here. I don't consider him a dominating type player but he is quick, smart and has a frame that will mature and enable him to add a few pounds of muscle in his lower body.....probably perfect for a lighter quicker line. He may struggle a bit with super big NT's. We need to get meaner on the line too...and I didn't notice a mean streak...but he is supposedly has one.

I didn't see him play in an actual game, but in the practices I saw, he was one of, if not the most aggressive OLmen at finishing the play and frequently drove his guy into the ground. Some guys got up with hey, what the heck kind of mannerisims after going up against him. In that setting it seemed like he had a mean streak. Don't know that he is/would be in the Texans' plans but he impressed me.

HoustonFrog
02-10-2006, 10:09 AM
Just me, but I wasn't impressed with the top OL prospects when I watched the games. I think the OL prospects were a bit overvalued early on.

I think Brick has been overrrated. He is the Top guy for sure but he had an inconsistent senior year and was banged up. Sorry but I'm not using a top 5 pick on that. I like some of the other prospects and just because the guy is top rated doesn't make him a fit for the zone blocking.

ArlingtonTexan
02-10-2006, 10:14 AM
I think Brick has been overrrated. He is the Top guy for sure but he had an inconsistent senior year and was banged up. Sorry but I'm not using a top 5 pick on that. I like some of the other prospects and just because the guy isw top rated doesn't make him a fit for the zone blocking.

IMO, because his best assets are footwork and athleticism he is more suited to be a successful run blocker in zone blocking scheme than an offense which uses man on man power football most of the time.

Vinny
02-10-2006, 10:15 AM
I didn't see him play in an actual game, but in the practices I saw, he was one of, if not the most aggressive OLmen at finishing the play and frequently drove his guy into the ground. Some guys got up with hey, what the heck kind of mannerisims after going up against him. In that setting it seemed like he had a mean streak. Don't know that he is/would be in the Texans' plans but he impressed me.Yeah, that's exactly what we need on the line (attitude). I know you have mentioned guys like Riley not finishing plays and part of that is disposition. Guys like Carl Mauck weren't the ideal physical prototype but he was a mean firely player in the center of our old Oiler line, and he didn't take crap off of anyone. There are times where we look like a bunch of boy scouts out there.

Coach C.
02-10-2006, 10:19 AM
Houston I like your thinking on that, I want Mario Williams personally, but the OL prospects are quite solid this year, much more than last year.

Lucky
02-10-2006, 10:25 AM
Kiper responds that this draft is NOT as deep as he had projected at the beginning of the college season. Says a LOT of hot prospects never materialized into what he had projected.
I don't agree with Mel often, but I do here. Winston, McNeil, & Scott have not looked like the surefire 1st rounders they were supposed to be. But I ask, didn't everyone say the same thing about last year's crop of O-linemen? There were 12-15 linemen who produced for their teams, and another 10 who will likely be asked to produce in '06.

There are players out there this year, it's just not as obvious as some classes. It's incumbent on the Texans to find those guys and develop them into NFL caliber linemen. The previous staff's inability to do so is a big part of why they aren't still in Houston. That this draft class isn't littered with can't miss offensive line prospects is no excuse for the Texans not to find help here.

Honoring Earl 34
02-10-2006, 10:27 AM
:redtowel: Is there a prospect that will make folks forget about Chester ? If not I think you pick the best OT prospect in the 2nd round .

Vinny
02-10-2006, 10:36 AM
I don't agree with Mel often, but I do here. Winston, McNeil, & Scott have not looked like the surefire 1st rounders they were supposed to be. But I ask, didn't everyone say the same thing about last year's crop of O-linemen? There were 12-15 linemen who produced for their teams, and another 10 who will likely be asked to produce in '06.

There are players out there this year, it's just not as obvious as some classes. It's incumbent on the Texans to find those guys and develop them into NFL caliber linemen. The previous staff's inability to do so is a big part of why they aren't still in Houston. That this draft class isn't littered with can't miss offensive line prospects is no excuse for the Texans not to find help here. Bingo...there is probably only one "sure thing" in this draft if you are looking for a top-10 Tackle. Elite left tackles are rare. This could be the single hardest position to find a elite talent since you have to have an enourmous human with the feet of a much smaller man. We will be able to find 'good' linemen later in the first, second and third rounds though. Our scouts just have to do a better job.

MorKnolle
02-10-2006, 10:57 AM
Yea, I got a glance at one of Kiper's mocks awhile back and noticed he didn't
have but 2 or 3 OTs, which suggets he and his people think this Draft is overrated at that position, since so many mocks have a half a dozen or so
OTs in the 1st round. And I think in particular Ferguson is overrated because
there are real concerns about his ability as a run blocker. So there is some
downside with the Ferguson pick.

D'Brickashaw Ferguson - I think will still definitely be a top 10 pick, probably top 5. A lot of the teams at the top (Titans, Jets, 49ers, Bills, Lions, Cardinals) need OLine help and as the most-hyped prospect I'm sure he'll go early.
Winston Justice - The #2 OT on most boards, I think Eric Winston is definitely the best prospect if he hadn't gotten injured and could regain his past form by the start of the season, but for now Justice is #2. I think he will go top 15, maybe even top 10 to one of the aforementioned teams.
Eric Winston - I think he is still the #3 OT. I hope he falls to us at #33 but I think he could easily be the 3rd guy taken and will likely land him in the 18-25 range.
Marcus McNeill - He is huge but I see him more as a career RT rather than a LT, so I think that will drop his stock. I could see him going late 1st (20 or lower) or early-mid 2nd depending on how much those teams in there want OLine help.
Jonathan Scott - Probably the 5th best OT in the group, could easily fall to the early-mid 2nd. He could sneak into the late 1st if a lot of teams are picking up OLinemen, but I expect him to fall to the 2nd.
Daryn Colledge - Some say he is a good LT prospect, I still think he's more of a RT or OG. He looks a lot like Chester Pitts to me, and most people don't think Chester is a long-term LT and should be RT or OG, so I don't see Colledge being any different. I doubt he goes in round 1, I wouldn't really have a problem with us getting him at #33 (depending on who we draft in the 1st), but hopefully one of the better guys will be there.

If Winston falls to #33 I would take him there regardless of who else is there, the only reason I wouldn't get him is if we get D'Brick in the 1st.
If Winston is gone at #33, to me it would depend on who we got in the 1st round, if we get Bush at #1 then I think there will be a DE at #33 that is a better value pick for us than getting Scott or Colledge, even though I really hate delaying getting OLine to the 3rd round again (although we can still get top interior OLinemen there, but the better OTs will be gone). If we trade down and get Mario Williams in the 1st, then he is our DE we need and I'm all for getting the best OT at #33, plus we'll hopefullly have an extra 2nd to either get a CB or interior OL there.

Maddict5
02-10-2006, 11:04 AM
Sorry but I'm not using a top 5 pick on that. I like some of the other prospects and just because the guy is top rated doesn't make him a fit for the zone blocking.

ok the top 5 guys in the draft,by common consensus, are bush,VY,Leinart,D'brick,and Mario. ALL OF THEM HAVE SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THEM-

Bush-can he run between tackles,will he have the necessary durability to carry the load

VY-can he run a pro-type offence, does he have a nfl type arm, will he find it as easy to rush for long gains in the nfl

Leinart-is his arm too weak for the nfl

D'brick-can he be a successful run blocker

Mario-will he find some consistency as he amassed most of his sacks in the last few games of the season

There is rarely a rookie with no weaknesses in their game so i dont think you can knock D'brick because of that- what does he do the best-pass block. who do we most badly need? Hmmm pass blocking..seems like an easy choice to me

HoustonFrog
02-10-2006, 11:22 AM
ok the top 5 guys in the draft,by common consensus, are bush,VY,Leinart,D'brick,and Mario. ALL OF THEM HAVE SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THEM-

Bush-can he run between tackles,will he have the necessary durability to carry the load

VY-can he run a pro-type offence, does he have a nfl type arm, will he find it as easy to rush for long gains in the nfl

Leinart-is his arm too weak for the nfl

D'brick-can he be a successful run blocker

Mario-will he find some consistency as he amassed most of his sacks in the last few games of the season

There is rarely a rookie with no weaknesses in their game so i dont think you can knock D'brick because of that- what does he do the best-pass block. who do we most badly need? Hmmm pass blocking..seems like an easy choice to me

My problem is I think, with the new scheme, that you can have the best of both worlds. I think you can take a Skill guy, whether it be RB, QB or down for a DE and still get lineman with 3 of the next 66 picks..or more for lineman. Add FA and I think we can fill many more holes than taking Brick there and keeping the skill guys we have. I'm not wanting to debate these guys but I don't find Carr or DD to be franchise guys so I'd have a hard time looking at them as your SB run guys , no matter the line.

beerlover
02-10-2006, 11:44 AM
Kiper responds that this draft is NOT as deep as he had projected at the beginning of the college season. Says a LOT of hot prospects never materialized into what he had projected.

first O-Linemen are not sexy picks, they are hard to follow via stat sheets & how much game film does Mel actually evaulate? this is as strong a batch of talented tackles not to mention guards in a long while, maybe after the combine he'll suddenly change his tune & the rest of you sheep will follow :rolleyes:

MorKnolle
02-10-2006, 12:21 PM
My problem is I think, with the new scheme, that you can have the best of both worlds. I think you can take a Skill guy, whether it be RB, QB or down for a DE and still get lineman with 3 of the next 66 picks..or more for lineman. Add FA and I think we can fill many more holes than taking Brick there and keeping the skill guys we have. I'm not wanting to debate these guys but I don't find Carr or DD to be franchise guys so I'd have a hard time looking at them as your SB run guys , no matter the line.

We can always fill in guys at certain positions at some point, but the question that has to be answered (people on this board but ultimately by Texan's management) is do you want to delay filling your biggest holes by using later picks on them (i.e. waiting until #s 33, 65, and 66 to fill OLine/defense needs) rather than using your absolute top picks (#s 1 or 4-5, 33, and likely adding 36-37, etc.) to fill our areas of concern? I personally would rather look to fill those sooner rather than later, but that is just my opinion and we'll have to wait and see what the management does and if they're even offered a good trade or not. If we move down, we should still be able to get a guy potentially of star-caliber (hopefully Mario Williams, or else D'Brickashaw), so it depends whether you want that top star player at RB or at a position we really need help at. If we have to or decide to stay at #1, then I'm all for adding our offensive playmaker (Bush) and building from there, but I think it would be better if we can get a good trade to move down and look to fill those needs earlier.

Coach C.
02-10-2006, 12:24 PM
I am not a big fan of Kiper, but I think he takes his job seriously. I think his usual picks are off and he will move people so often that way he can say yeah I had that guy there. Either way the OL is pretty deep, the combine and workouts usually deteremines the high end talent, but this is a deep draft at least 50 deep this year. I feel that some of the low 1st round and second round guys will end up better than the high end guys.

BuffSoldier
02-10-2006, 12:51 PM
I think Brick has been overrrated. He is the Top guy for sure but he had an inconsistent senior year and was banged up. Sorry but I'm not using a top 5 pick on that. I like some of the other prospects and just because the guy is top rated doesn't make him a fit for the zone blocking.

Just because he got injured doesnt mean that he was inconsistent. I dont know what games you saw, but I made an effort to watch every Virginia game that came on in this area, and Ferguson looked stellar in all of them. Yes he had a small injury, but what else. And 99% of people think that "That" is worth a top 5 pick.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 01:00 PM
When it comes to Kiper it is always handy to see who he is pimping and cross reference Drew Rosenhaus' draftable players.

I have not been impressed by the O line guys either to warrant a long term investment in the top 5 range. This is why Winston is very intriguing as well as others who may fall to the second and third rounds. We need value and our current staff has the propensity to see value and then develop the value picks on the O line.

I really liked what I saw from Mangold in the Senior Bowl game. Did not do anything spectacular, but his footwork, positioning and the way his head was on a constant swivel was great to see. In one word the guy is active.

HoustonFrog
02-10-2006, 01:05 PM
Just because he got injured doesnt mean that he was inconsistent. I dont know what games you saw, but I made an effort to watch every Virginia game that came on in this area, and Ferguson looked stellar in all of them. Yes he had a small injury, but what else. And 99% of people think that "That" is worth a top 5 pick.

Actually I saw a couple of his games and he was fine but I have seen two drafting services that used the word inconsistent. I just don't think it makes any sense when I think we can have both the skill and the line if we draft smart and fit the guys into the system. If we had franchise skill guys in place I'd follow you but IMHO we don't. I have seem many OTs be successful that were taken lower 1st round like Foster in Denver but I don't like using a top 5 pick on one.

Kaiser, I agree with the names and when we could get them.

infantrycak
02-10-2006, 01:30 PM
We can always fill in guys at certain positions at some point, but the question that has to be answered (people on this board but ultimately by Texan's management) is do you want to delay filling your biggest holes by using later picks on them (i.e. waiting until #s 33, 65, and 66 to fill OLine/defense needs) rather than using your absolute top picks (#s 1 or 4-5, 33, and likely adding 36-37, etc.) to fill our areas of concern? I personally would rather look to fill those sooner rather than later, but that is just my opinion and we'll have to wait and see what the management does and if they're even offered a good trade or not.

Don't recall a single NFL personnel guy ever espousing the need over BPA theory for drafting. Need certainly can eliminate some people (a lack thereof of or cap implications) and more importantly can serve as a thumb on the scales where the talent pool at several positions is approximately even, but need has no place trumping BPA where the BPA is clear.

SESupergenius
02-10-2006, 01:51 PM
If you are talking LT then no, there doesn't seem to be a guy that looks like a dominator. But overall I think that the o-line prospects are good, more the guards and RT than anything. And trust me, we need a good RT so don't let it bother you that there are no great LT's in this draft because there are plenty of good RT's. Giles is tops on my chart of o-lineman, and D'Brick would be a nice additions, but I'd be just a tad hesitant to trade down only a couple spots to get them. If we traded down closer to 7-9 spots and they were still there then yes, I'd take them.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 02:27 PM
If we traded down closer to 7-9 spots and they were still there then yes, I'd take them.

7-9 position to me is where DBrick is a value, given what I have seen in two games this year and the Senior Bowl.