PDA

View Full Version : Front office loyalty to Carr and possible implications


Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 08:45 AM
DD signed a new contract last year after being the first recognized player on the Texans franchise as Rookie of the Year. He has had two 1,000 yard seasons and almost a third. He has show the ability to be a very good pass catcher. Moreover, he does have return skills.

Morency was a value pick in my opinion selected on the first day last year and is a definite change of pace back.

Wells has been here since day one and two of his advocates have been returned on the coaching staff - Chick Harris (RB) and Marciano (ST). He has shown marked improvement doing what is needed and usually performing pretty well when given an opportunity.

My point is is that I do not see any of these guys going anywhere due to McNair overspending on Carr, an asset that still has not returned on the investment. The running game has been our best offensive weapon. We have all of our guys in the running game set to return, per hopefully resigning Wells, as well as the RB coach. If Reeves and Cass see something between the lines in Carr then they definetly must see the value of the current running game. I do not see Bush being drafted by this team as he would cost 7 million per year, but we would not get 7 million dollars worth on incremental output. I honestly believe Bush just became the odd man out as someone who will be in Texans uniform next year.

Frills
02-10-2006, 08:50 AM
DD can't stay healthy a full year, can't pass block either.

Wells will most likely move to FB.

Bush is versatile, can split wide, or line up in backfield.

Morency is still raw, needs to work more on his recieving.

The value in the running game was partly due to the lack of pass protection, when you know your line can't pass block, you tend to run more...and Capers wanted to run 3 straight downs when down by 28.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 09:00 AM
DD can't stay healthy a full year, can't pass block either.

Wells will most likely move to FB.

Bush is versatile, can split wide, or line up in backfield.

Morency is still raw, needs to work more on his recieving.

The value in the running game was partly due to the lack of pass protection, when you know your line can't pass block, you tend to run more...and Capers wanted to run 3 straight downs when down by 28.

With Morency having one year under his belt, and all ships rising due to the Kubiak Tsunami, he will be able to foster the load that will extend Davis through the season. And if you think Davis is injury prone, then how in the heck are we going to move him to another team?

The value of the running game will have to take a backseat next year in order to show Kubiak's touch on Carr and the passing game. Expect an upgrade on the O line, TE and WR (including resign of Gaff). I know people will say Bush at WR, but how many routes has he run in the NFL? In a Kubiak offense? How will he block? Will he pick up the playbook? Zone blocking? With one unproven 8 million dollar man extended the prospect of another unproven 7 million dollar man joining him in the backfield next year is nil in my opinion.

Frills
02-10-2006, 09:07 AM
Next year isn't as much an issue as 07, we got a 2 mil bonus to the cap (only good thing Bradford did last year) and the cap will rise to 92-95 mil.

I hope we trade down and get Brick, but if thats not happening, I say Bush over Young.

infantrycak
02-10-2006, 09:07 AM
The Texans will absolutely go into draft day with (a) a willingness to draft down and an idea of the value they want to do so, and (b) a decision on who they will take at #1 if they can't receive value to trade down. Simple game planning really. If they determine the only two legitimate #1 picks are a QB and a RB your logic kicks harder than it shoots. In other words, cap wise it makes just as much or more to have $15 mil actually in the backfield on the field than $8 mil in the backfield and $7 mil on the bench. This may very well point to an inclination to trade down if possible, but IMO I don't see how it can be viewed as lessening Bush's chances if the Texans actually exercise the #1 pick.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 09:17 AM
The Texans will absolutely go into draft day with (a) a willingness to draft down and an idea of the value they want to do so, and (b) a decision on who they will take at #1 if they can't receive value to trade down. Simple game planning really. If they determine the only two legitimate #1 picks are a QB and a RB your logic kicks harder than it shoots. In other words, cap wise it makes just as much or more to have $15 mil actually in the backfield on the field than $8 mil in the backfield and $7 mil on the bench. This may very well point to an inclination to trade down if possible, but IMO I don't see how it can be viewed as lessening Bush's chances if the Texans actually exercise the #1 pick.

I think that 7 million dollar insurance policy on the bench is more palatable than 15 million in the backfield. Let's face it we are all happy with Carr being retained, but we are still waiting for him to show us the mojo after the Texans have shown him the money.

infantrycak
02-10-2006, 09:23 AM
I think that 7 million dollar insurance policy on the bench is more palatable than 15 million in the backfield. Let's face it we are all happy with Carr being retained, but we are still waiting for him to show us the mojo after the Texans have shown him the money.

That makes zero sense with your normal cap considerations. You have previously said you don't like the value of #1 QB's and now having two of them with one unable to see the field makes more sense than two #1's on the field at the same time? At this point, we have to hope Carr succeeds and passing on improving the team to draft his replacement to sit on the bench in case he fails (that is still $15 mil in the backfield by the way--just half the backfield is 2nd string) hardly seems like doing the most you can to succeed and seems like gross cap mismanagement IMO.

Vinny
02-10-2006, 09:32 AM
Let's face it we are all happy with Carr being retained, but ....Throwing good money after bad is what I see. I can only hope for the best...but I'm not real happy with this off-season so far.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 09:33 AM
That makes zero sense with your normal cap considerations. You have previously said you don't like the value of #1 QB's and now having two of them with one unable to see the field makes more sense than two #1's on the field at the same time? At this point, we have to hope Carr succeeds and passing on improving the team to draft his replacement to sit on the bench in case he fails (that is still $15 mil in the backfield by the way--just half the backfield is 2nd string) hardly seems like doing the most you can to succeed and seems like gross cap mismanagement IMO.

Getting off track. My point of view has always been trade down and do not see the value in QB's at #1. Just saying that in viewing the lay of the land as the Texans mosaic takes shape I do not see Bush being the option. What the front office does and what we think are usually at odds with one another. I would have not extended Carr myself, but would have released him and tried to renegotiate.

Believe me, the extension of Carr makes me pumped that the trade down has just become more likely.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 09:37 AM
Throwing good money after bad is what I see. I can only hope for the best...but I'm not real happy with this off-season so far.

I had no reason for optimism in the past because of the staff and Carr. I am more optimisitic due to Kubiak being here and Reeves and Kubiak giving thumbs up to Carr. People's necks are on the line right out of the gate and I like that. No time I have ever felt that this was the case for the Texans.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 09:41 AM
That makes zero sense with your normal cap considerations. You have previously said you don't like the value of #1 QB's and now having two of them with one unable to see the field makes more sense than two #1's on the field at the same time? At this point, we have to hope Carr succeeds and passing on improving the team to draft his replacement to sit on the bench in case he fails (that is still $15 mil in the backfield by the way--just half the backfield is 2nd string) hardly seems like doing the most you can to succeed and seems like gross cap mismanagement IMO.

grosse cap mismanagement, is giving a guy $8 million dollars who runs into blockers, and runs out of bounds with the ball in his hand..... behind the line of scrimmage.

I think the FO feels really bad for Carr. After all, they did it to him. Starting him from Day one. It don't matter how tough he is, setting the NFL records for sacks, is no way to start your NFL carreer.... So, they're going to do it right this time. While giving David ample time to retrain, and boost his value.

ArlingtonTexan
02-10-2006, 10:05 AM
Believe me, the extension of Carr makes me pumped that the trade down has just become more likely.

Why? The extension of Carr is basically non-news. The news would have been if they did NOT extend Carr or only extended him 2 years. I am operating under the same assumptions that I have been for the last month or so.

As for trade down, it is not in the Texans hands. One of the teams below the Texans have fall into unreasonable love with Bush/Young/Leinert. Taking the the next 6 teams only two are not going to be under new administration (Titans and 49ers) and both of those are just emerging from cap issues with little or no depth. None those teams should trade up: givng away multiple picks and players for right to overpay for one player.

GP
02-10-2006, 10:08 AM
He deserves the $8 million for puttig up with Capers and his screwball offense system that got him banged up every Sunday.

I've had it with the "Carr doesn't deserve the money" stuff from you guys. He has talent or Reeves & Kubes would have said so. And as far as I am concerned, the ownership of this team DESERVES to have to pay him the cash because of THEIR ineptitude in terms of not putting GOOD coaches behind Carr who might have had us in the playoffs by now.

Man, you guys really have the long knives out for Carr.

Bush is growing on me every day. Here's a tid-bit from ESPN the mAgazine that I just got yesterday: Coaches breaking down Bush film from the USC-Notre Dame game replayed a SINGLE Bush play (a counter running play) where Bush leapt over a would-be tackler and with only one foot planted onto the turf as he was coming back down from the leap, Bush made a CUT. A CUT. The coaches switched from analyzing the play and went into pure "amazement" mode as they replayed the play and saw something they had never seen before: A guy who was seemingly preparing his body in mid-air to make a cut even before the feet were placed onto the turf after the leap. He lands on one foot, and never even has to worry about regaining balance because he was already making a cut on that one foot when most players would be focusing on just staying on-balance so they could keep running.

I, too, would like to get 'Brick. But Kubes wants a loaded backfield, and he's getting it with Bush.

Vinny
02-10-2006, 10:10 AM
He deserves the $8 million for puttig up with Capers and his screwball offense system that got him banged up every Sunday.

I've had it with the "Carr doesn't deserve the money" stuff from you guys. He has talent or Reeves & Kubes would have said so. And as far as I am concerned, the ownership of this team DESERVES to have to pay him the cash because of THEIR ineptitude in terms of not putting GOOD coaches behind Carr who might have had us in the playoffs by now.

Man, you guys really have the long knives out for Carr.

Actually some of us think that you hurt your team by paying franchise money to a non-franchise producer in a cap league. Overspending for an average QB means you can't pay other positions as well as you could if you chose not to. It's not a personal opinion (about DC's character)....its a football opinion - no knives out here.

bigTEXan8
02-10-2006, 10:21 AM
Actually some of us think that you hurt your team by paying franchise money to a non-franchise producer in a cap league. Overspending for an average QB means you can't pay other positions as well as you could if you chose not to. It's not a personal opinion....its a football opinion - no knives out here.

All I could say is that if I was Carr, I wouldn't mind giving some of that money back so the front office can spend that money on people to protect my ***, that's just me though. It could end up benefiting Carr in the long run. Even though it's been my opinion that the team has never given Carr a chance to succeed, I think it would go a long way in proving he's a team guy. JM:twocents:

Marcus
02-10-2006, 10:38 AM
The problem that I have for some, is that they already have their minds made up that Carr is a dog, no matter what Kubiak and Reeves thinks. Therefore, no matter what happens, Carr will continue to be a dog. And therefore, no matter what Carr does this season under Kubiak, Carr is still, and will always remain a dog.

Vinny
02-10-2006, 10:40 AM
But I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again. Is the difference between Carr and Young so great, that you'd pay the cost of giving up Bush?I think it is. The Broncos traded the back most like Bush (Portis) and went with a back more like Dom a year ago....You can find backs everywhere, all the time, and in any draft. Elite QB's are much tougher to secure.

Tex-fan0604
02-10-2006, 10:42 AM
All I could say is that if I was Carr, I wouldn't mind giving some of that money back so the front office can spend that money on people to protect my ***, that's just me though. It could end up benefiting Carr in the long run. Even though it's been my opinion that the team has never given Carr a chance to succeed, I think it would go a long way in proving he's a team guy. JM:twocents:

im sorry but would you be willing to give up the money which you were entitled to get especially millions just to make up for the bad decision making of Casserly and the scouts.I dont think thats right its not DC's fault,its all on Casserly not picking up good FA and college players and lets not forget giving players like Marcus C. and G.Walker extensions they didnt need.In that case you might *** well ask all those guys to restructure their contracts lets see if they are team players.

Honoring Earl 34
02-10-2006, 10:43 AM
:redtowel: In my opinion this bonus is more important to the future than the #1 pick . I'm like Vinny in thinking Carr's not worth this kind of money and he's owed nothing for getting pounded , I believe he knew the risk when he entered the draft .

I hope the Texans made this decision with their head and not their heart or to cover their backside .

wags
02-10-2006, 10:45 AM
Actually some of us think that you hurt your team by paying franchise money to a non-franchise producer in a cap league. Overspending for an average QB means you can't pay other positions as well as you could if you chose not to. It's not a personal opinion (about DC's character)....its a football opinion - no knives out here.

So do you think this is a trend with the FO? Greenwood, Wade, and Pitts are all certainly not deserving of 20-25 million dollar contracts if you are judging solely on past production.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 10:46 AM
He deserves the $8 million for puttig up with Capers and his screwball offense system that got him banged up every Sunday.

I've had it with the "Carr doesn't deserve the money" stuff from you guys. He has talent or Reeves & Kubes would have said so. And as far as I am concerned, the ownership of this team DESERVES to have to pay him the cash because of THEIR ineptitude in terms of not putting GOOD coaches behind Carr who might have had us in the playoffs by now.

Man, you guys really have the long knives out for Carr.


I've been developing a theory the last couple of days, and it's starting to grow on my more and more.

why did we choose Capers as our very first head coach?? did it have anything to do with his ability to get a franchise team into the NFC championship game(when the NFC was still relatively tough) in like 2 or 4 years?? Was this just luck?? did it just happen, or did Capers do something to make it happen??

Now our offensive line needs help. I don't know if it has ever been done before, but how many teams get 1800 rushing yards, then lead the league in sacks the same year?? Run blocking is different from Pass blocking, yeah, yeah, I got that. but think about it...... 1800yards, and lead the league in sacks... has anything similar to that ever happen before?? I can't imagine. I share many responsibilities here at work, but I do have my specialty........ but I'm not totally inept, at the other aspects of my job.

Now the rest of this, is a bunch of what ifs....

What if McNair is in love with Carr... to the point, that he tells Caper's, that David will Start. So Capers dumbs down the offense. 1 read, then check down to your tight end... We still can't keep David on his feet, so we get bigger tightends, and check down to the RB.... Still David has a problem standing up, so we try to use our #2 reciever to block... actually, we used our #2 reciever to block the second year, so in 2004, we are using our second #2 reciever to block. and voila......... 7-9. 2005 comes around, we get more athletic on the offensive line, but.... we start loosing linemen. Normally, you'd use your tightend on that side of the line, to help out. But since our tight ends are already part of the blocking scheme, we'll have to go to our running back. But since he is already part of our blocking scheme, we simply can't help..

after the second game of the season, McNair has a staff meeting. He asks Dom, what's the problem.. Dom says, "look, I'm not a magician. I've done everything I can to help that kid succeed, but it ain't gonna happen" McNair say, "you're fired." Dom says, "hold on, you didn't let me finish. I've done everything, but get rid of his offensive coordinator.... My offense line guy is doing and amazing job with the line, let's get him and Carr on the same page.. I think we can turn this around for you Mr.McNair." Well, we know what happened next.

Casserly meets Reeves in the airport, and tells him about the meeting they had earlier in the year... about Dom and his David can't win attitude...... Reeves makes a few adjustments to the way he evaluates the team.


fictional, I know.... But it could happen.

Vinny
02-10-2006, 10:46 AM
So do you think this is a trend with the FO? Greenwood, Wade, and Pitts are all certainly not deserving of 20-25 million dollar contracts if you are judging solely on past production.None of those guys are going to bang out 7-8 million dollars from next years cap. Pitts deserves every bit of that money...his contract is right...can't say the same for the others.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 10:48 AM
Why? The extension of Carr is basically non-news. The news would have been if they did NOT extend Carr or only extended him 2 years. I am operating under the same assumptions that I have been for the last month or so.

As for trade down, it is not in the Texans hands. One of the teams below the Texans have fall into unreasonable love with Bush/Young/Leinert. Taking the the next 6 teams only two are not going to be under new administration (Titans and 49ers) and both of those are just emerging from cap issues with little or no depth. None those teams should trade up: givng away multiple picks and players for right to overpay for one player.

Very good logic. But I would argue that we have been anything but logical in our spending or "surrendering" of picks in the past. We know what we will get out of the current team, at its best, and that is seven wins. We reupped on our highest paid player and have not given him or our defense the tools they need to succeed. Coaching changes will help and I believe it would be a stretch for just the staff to get us back to our high water mark of seven wins.

I see overreaching for an LT or DE at this moment than picking Bush if a trade down partner does not develop.

Marcus
02-10-2006, 10:50 AM
I think it is. The Broncos traded the back most like Bush (Portis) and went with a back more like Dom a year ago....You can find backs everywhere, all the time, and in any draft. Elite QB's are much tougher to secure.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. People say I'm wrong to compare Vince Young with Michael Vick. But people say Reggie Bush is something really something else. Gale Sayers vs. Clinton Portis. If both Kubiak and Reeves say that Carr is worth keeping, I'm will to give them a shot to try to prove it to me.

Honoring Earl 34
02-10-2006, 10:53 AM
:superman: So where do you pull the plug . Theres about four soon to be five way overpaid players on this team . We ought to move the Texans to Florida cause you go there to retire .

chuckm
02-10-2006, 10:58 AM
If both Kubiak and Reeves say that Carr is worth keeping, I'm will to give them a shot to try to prove it to me.

this is a very salient point, one that doesn't get much play .... the devil's advocates will say that McNair HIRED Reeves so what do you expect him to say? Well ok but how do you explain Kubiak? He has much, much more at stake here. The guy has waited years to get a head coaching job and it seems that, in general, he'd not want to risk the start of his HC career on a QB that he thought had "no talent", "no leadership", "happy feet", blah blah blah, ...

If Young had grown up in Atlanta and gone to college at FSU or Georgia Tech or Auburn, we wouldn't be having this conversation ... IMO

Runner
02-10-2006, 10:58 AM
:superman: So where do you pull the plug . Theres about four soon to be five way overpaid players on this team . We ought to move the Texans to Florida cause you go there to retire .

I'm guessing we are going to cut at least one of those players, even if it means taking a big "dead space" salary cap hit that hurts in the short term but will be a relief in a couple of years.

wags
02-10-2006, 11:04 AM
I'm guessing we are going to cut at least one of those players, even if it means taking a big "dead space" salary cap hit that hurts in the short term but will be a relief in a couple of years.

We have so many holes that we can't afford any dead space. Unfortunately we have to dance with this fat chick.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 11:05 AM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. People say I'm wrong to compare Vince Young with Michael Vick. But people say Reggie Bush is something really something else. Gale Sayers vs. Clinton Portis. If both Kubiak and Reeves say that Carr is worth keeping, I'm will to give them a shot to try to prove it to me.


At the same time, Kubiak wanted to draft DD on the first day back in '03, but we beat him to the punch.... it doesn't make sense to draft Bush as a #1 overall, unless you're replacing someone.


I think Kubes believes he has all the pieces he needs to be successful. He's just going to tweek a few things... I doubt we'll even get DBrick. If Denver is willing to give us two #1s for ours, we'll take it, and drop down to the 24th, 32, or whereever Denver ended up.

Honoring Earl 34
02-10-2006, 11:12 AM
Good drafting and good spending are whats needed now . In baseball the Yankees spend a lot of money but very rarely is on a guy who does'nt produce . Try saying that about the Texans .

More picks means a greater number of chances to have your picks become NFL caliber players . Its not a lock no matter how high the pick .

LBC_Justin
02-10-2006, 11:13 AM
DD can't stay healthy a full year, can't pass block either.

Wells will most likely move to FB.

Bush is versatile, can split wide, or line up in backfield.

Morency is still raw, needs to work more on his recieving.

The value in the running game was partly due to the lack of pass protection, when you know your line can't pass block, you tend to run more...and Capers wanted to run 3 straight downs when down by 28.To add to your points....

We also ran a lot during "Garbage Minutes". Often running for 12-15 yard gains when it was 3rd and 25. This has skewed our running stats.

We are not as good of a running team as the stats show.

LBC_Justin
02-10-2006, 11:18 AM
Now our offensive line needs help. I don't know if it has ever been done before, but how many teams get 1800 rushing yards, then lead the league in sacks the same year?? Run blocking is different from Pass blocking, yeah, yeah, I got that. but think about it...... 1800yards, and lead the league in sacks... has anything similar to that ever happen before?? I can't imagine. I share many responsibilities here at work, but I do have my specialty........ but I'm not totally inept, at the other aspects of my job.
It is called poor play calling. As I just wrote in my previous post.

If you go back an watch the game film we never abandoned the run. Even when we were down by tons of points and had to play catch up. Capers often called running plays when we should have been passing. It is one of the reasons it seemed this team "gave up" on a few games. Because the play calls didn't make the statement that "we are trying to win the game."

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 11:22 AM
We also ran a lot during "Garbage Minutes". Often running for 12-15 yard gains when it was 3rd and 25. This has skewed our running stats.

Is this fact or opinion?

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 11:23 AM
It is called poor play calling. As I just wrote in my previous post.

If you go back an watch the game film we never abandoned the run. Even when we were down by tons of points and had to play catch up. Capers often called running plays when we should have been passing. It is one of the reasons it seemed this team "gave up" on a few games. Because the play calls didn't make the statement that "we are trying to win the game."

I am assuming that you qualify dump offs to DD and hitches to AJ as running plays? :rolleyes:

chuckm
02-10-2006, 11:26 AM
I am assuming that you qualify dump offs to DD and hitches to AJ as running plays? :rolleyes:


dump offs to Bush should be more exciting than dump offs to DD ... or not

wags
02-10-2006, 11:31 AM
dump offs to Bush should be more exciting than dump offs to DD ... or not

I'm going to go ahead and start the first "what did Bush do to the offense" thread.

MorKnolle
02-10-2006, 11:32 AM
I think it is. The Broncos traded the back most like Bush (Portis) and went with a back more like Dom a year ago....You can find backs everywhere, all the time, and in any draft. Elite QB's are much tougher to secure.

There is some difference though. The Broncos had proven they could turn any RB into a 1400 producer (already had done so with Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, and Mike Anderson in the previous four seasons) and they still had Anderson on their team along with Reuben Droughns that also put up a 1000 yard season after Portis left. They traded Portis for a shut-down CB, something they had been sorely missing in their defense because they knew they could turn almost any RB into a big-time guy, and they still had a guy left on their roster that had run for 1487 yards his rookie season. They knew what they had in their RBs and offensive scheme and were willing to trade off one of those RBs to get a proven elite CB. Vince Young and Reggie Bush are both unproven players in the NFL. You can't label Vince as an elite QB yet, you can't label Bush as an elite RB yet, that distinction will have to be earned by their play in this level.
The question is, do you essentially trade your QB of four years that you have a relatively good idea what he can do (you at least have four years worth of tape on him against NFL competition to make your conclusion on his potential) and a rookie RB that hasn't proven anything against NFL defenses but has the athletic potential to be an elite RB for a rookie QB that similarly has not proven anything against NFL defenses but also has the potential to be an elite QB?

Additional points:
1) Kubiak has a reputation for substantially improving QB play, which could bode well for either keeping Carr or drafting Vince, although as a side Kubiak generally has helped build up QBs with existing NFL experience and turned their careers around, not undertaken rookies and built them up (Griese was the only rookie starter he's ever tutored, and he didn't last very long, otherwise he helped resurrect Elway and Plummer's careers).
2) At the same time their offense has a history of producing dominant RBs, so do they look for a potentially elite RB that possibly has more physical skills than any RB he ever had in Denver,
3) They [the Broncos] also have a history of taking RBs and QBs later in the draft and going with defense and other offensive positions early in the draft, so will he look to continue that trend.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 11:33 AM
That is not true. Abandond the running game NO, have less of a run run run punt Offense yes.

Strongly disagree. McNair will want to measure what he spent these dollars on. There have to be benchmarks to show progress, otherwise the chorus of boos will rule. No one wants that.

chuckm
02-10-2006, 11:34 AM
I'm going to go ahead and start the first "what did Bush do to the offense" thread.

if you think you're qualified ... go ahead

Wordem
02-10-2006, 11:36 AM
The Texans just took a permanent backseat to the Cowboys. It didn't have to be that way.

Houston is the aggy of pro football. Have fun sucking.

Honoring Earl 34
02-10-2006, 11:38 AM
:superman: The Broncos traded the back most like Bush for arguably the best CB in the league . Does'nt that mean that Portis had tremendous value ?

Frills
02-10-2006, 11:39 AM
The Texans just took a permanent backseat to the Cowboys. It didn't have to be that way.

Houston is the aggy of pro football. Have fun sucking.

thought all the teasip bandwaggoneers were leaving?

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 11:40 AM
:superman: The Broncos traded the back most like Bush for arguably the best CB in the league . Does'nt that mean that Portis had tremendous value ?

Absolutely it did. Any RB who has back to back 1500 yard seasons his first two season has shown he can carry the load in the NFL. Do we have one of those?

MorKnolle
02-10-2006, 11:41 AM
I'm guessing we are going to cut at least one of those players, even if it means taking a big "dead space" salary cap hit that hurts in the short term but will be a relief in a couple of years.

I hope can do/can cut a few of them or at least renegotiate their contracts. With Steve McKinney, at least it is cheap to cut him so you can tell him to either take a big salary cut or else we can easily cut him ($4+ million to keep, only $800k to cut). If we cut him, he gets no money for this year and it only counts $800k against our cap, if we keep him he gets paid his $3+ million base salary and it costs us $4+ million against the cap, so we can cut him and save us a whole lot of money and cost him a lot of money, so he should be willing to renegotiate and take a big chunk out of that base salary, at least that way he will get paid something. The problem with Gary Walker and Todd Wade is it will cost us more against the cap this year to get rid of them than to keep them (although you save actual money out of pocket), so in that sense it would be better (leave more cap room to bring in players) to keep them and either find a place for them to play some kind of role or just bench them. With these two guys you can't threaten to cut them like this because it hurts our team (in terms of salary cap room) to do so, so you have to hope that they are willing to take a salary cut for the betterment of the team or else you're just stuck with them.

Carr Bombed
02-10-2006, 11:43 AM
The Texans just took a permanent backseat to the Cowboys. It didn't have to be that way.

Houston is the aggy of pro football. Have fun sucking. Oh wow we are taking a backseat to the Cowboys, do you hear that Texan fans the COWBOYS are now the most popular team. :rolleyes:

Its been that way for a while now. In fact pretty much the entire time that Houson has ever had a professional football team.

The Cowboys aren't called America's team for nothing, most of the league takes a back seat to them and drafting Vince wouldn't have changed that.

Have fun finding a NEW team.

chuckm
02-10-2006, 11:44 AM
The Texans just took a permanent backseat to the Cowboys. It didn't have to be that way.

Houston is the aggy of pro football. Have fun sucking.


you could be arrested for blackmail ... draft Vince or else ...

MorKnolle
02-10-2006, 11:45 AM
The Texans just took a permanent backseat to the Cowboys. It didn't have to be that way.

Houston is the aggy of pro football. Have fun sucking.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out :BananaWav
Any others want to leave the Texans family? :redtowel:

McNabbMVP05
02-10-2006, 11:46 AM
I agree david carr sucks.:brickwall :brickwall

chuckm
02-10-2006, 11:47 AM
I agree david carr sucks.:brickwall :brickwall



hey welcome to the board ..... the Carr Sucks line forms to the left

bigTEXan8
02-10-2006, 11:49 AM
im sorry but would you be willing to give up the money which you were entitled to get especially millions just to make up for the bad decision making of Casserly and the scouts.I dont think thats right its not DC's fault,its all on Casserly not picking up good FA and college players and lets not forget giving players like Marcus C. and G.Walker extensions they didnt need.In that case you might *** well ask all those guys to restructure their contracts lets see if they are team players.

I'm just saying, that's what I would do. That's just who I am. But now that Reeves is controlling the reigns, I think that the decision process will be little better. Plus that, I give so money back, the team does a complete 180, we win 11,12 games, next time contract negotiations come around, maybe I'm rewarded for my generous actions, and I get it back plus more. JM:twocents:

Carr Bombed
02-10-2006, 11:50 AM
How did that MVP for Mcnabb work out, must of been that black on black crime he suffered from :rolleyes: I hope he recovers from the attack

ArlingtonTexan
02-10-2006, 11:51 AM
Very good logic. But I would argue that we have been anything but logical in our spending or "surrendering" of picks in the past. We know what we will get out of the current team, at its best, and that is seven wins. We reupped on our highest paid player and have not given him or our defense the tools they need to succeed. Coaching changes will help and I believe it would be a stretch for just the staff to get us back to our high water mark of seven wins.

I see overreaching for an LT or DE at this moment than picking Bush if a trade down partner does not develop.

One of the Texans' hope has to be that someone becomes as illogical as they have been and will trade up anyway. I believe it is unlikely, but not out of the question.

I don't see the Texans making the sort of football related move that you are suggesting with drafting a LT or DE anyway. That would be the boldest of the bold moves. The safest and best business move (and not a bad football move) is going with the chalk. With Bob mcNair sticking his nose into the football decisions to a greater extent, I expect business and safety to rule out in the end.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 11:51 AM
I agree david carr sucks.:brickwall :brickwall

McNabb MVP in '05? More like biggest dissapointment in '05. Welcome to the board you will do well here as you walked into our most heated debate which will seem like Sunday School compared to your team's fans.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 12:01 PM
There is some difference though. The Broncos had proven they could turn any RB into a 1400 producer (already had done so with Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, and Mike Anderson in the previous four seasons) and they still had Anderson on their team along with Reuben Droughns that also put up a 1000 yard season after Portis left.

I really think We have the backs right now, to put us in a similar situation. I can easily see DD getting 1400 yards, and then some, with a more Denver like system.

Later, you point out that RB, and VY aren't NFL elites yet..... that's true, but none of the NFL Elites were on draft day either. I think it is easier to look at these two prospects as future elites, than many others in this draft, and drafts from recent history.

cuppacoffee
02-10-2006, 12:03 PM
Overspending for an average QB means you can't pay other positions as well as you could if you chose not to. It's not a personal opinion (about DC's character)....its a football opinion - no knives out here.

That is the crux of the arguments on this board. Carr has never been put into the position of being anything but average.


I think it is. The Broncos traded the back most like Bush (Portis) and went with a back more like Dom a year ago....You can find backs everywhere, all the time, and in any draft. Elite QB's are much tougher to secure.

Am I correct in thinking you are referring to the mighty VY here?

There have been many 'elite' college qb's fail in the NFL.
Young will be one of these qb's. My opinion, no knives here either.

Additionally, you cannot find backs everywhere, all the time, and in any draft that possess the skills of Bush. If you truly believe this, then I have seriously overrated your judgement/opinion of football talent.

:coffee:

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 12:46 PM
Additionally, you cannot find backs everywhere, all the time, and in any draft that possess the skills of Bush. If you truly believe this, then I have seriously overrated your judgement/opinion of football talent.

:coffee:


I'm old school. All that fancy stuff Bush does spread out, and racing to the corner doesn't impress me. He's awesome, he'll be an elite one day, I'm sure of it. But I don't want him on my team. I've got no use for him.

houstonhurricane
02-10-2006, 12:54 PM
thunder,

Instead, are you saying that we have room on "our" roster for a qb who will sit on the bench for a year or two? Or are you a proponent of seeing if the market will bear trading down?

I like the idea of adding an immediate impact playmaker to the roster. And that is exactly what RB brings to the table. He not only serves as an extremely quick back out of the backfield, he would also become an immediate WR2 on our team (much quicker and better hands than Gaffney, etc.). However, if someone packages a great deal - and that must be picks 2 - 4 so we could ensure we get Brick - then I am all about the trade down.

jerek
02-10-2006, 01:20 PM
thunder,

Instead, are you saying that we have room on "our" roster for a qb who will sit on the bench for a year or two? Or are you a proponent of seeing if the market will bear trading down?

I like the idea of adding an immediate impact playmaker to the roster. And that is exactly what RB brings to the table. He not only serves as an extremely quick back out of the backfield, he would also become an immediate WR2 on our team (much quicker and better hands than Gaffney, etc.). However, if someone packages a great deal - and that must be picks 2 - 4 so we could ensure we get Brick - then I am all about the trade down.

This is essentially my line of thinking. Bush is a viable playmaker - not sure if he is a #1 featured back, but could fare well in a Denver RBBC type system, as well as lining up in the slot 5-8 times per game. But the trade down possibilites are something very much to be considered as well.

Though I do like Gaffney as a WR and think he has been under-utilized to this point.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 01:33 PM
thunder,

Instead, are you saying that we have room on "our" roster for a qb who will sit on the bench for a year or two? Or are you a proponent of seeing if the market will bear trading down?

I like the idea of adding an immediate impact playmaker to the roster. And that is exactly what RB brings to the table. He not only serves as an extremely quick back out of the backfield, he would also become an immediate WR2 on our team (much quicker and better hands than Gaffney, etc.). However, if someone packages a great deal - and that must be picks 2 - 4 so we could ensure we get Brick - then I am all about the trade down.


I'm really in the trade down camp. I don't necessarily think D'Brick should be the target though. But I think if we are going to use the pick, I think we should put Vince on the bench, and let him study with Kubiak & Sherman. I think Carr will show us in the next year, that he'll never be a Peyton, or a Brady....... I've always thought David was a good enough QB, never would have used a #1 overall on him. Vince, I think is the kind of QB that you would use a #1 overall on.

Vinny
02-10-2006, 01:36 PM
Additionally, you cannot find backs everywhere, all the time, and in any draft that possess the skills of Bush. If you truly believe this, then I have seriously overrated your judgement/opinion of football talent.

:coffee:Backs are availble in the FA market every year. Starting caliber NFL backs are all over the first day of every draft....one reason guys like Henry and Edge couldn't get a trade partner willing to trade a high pick the last few years. I could care less what you think of my opinion btw.

SESupergenius
02-10-2006, 01:42 PM
Throwing good money after bad is what I see. I can only hope for the best...but I'm not real happy with this off-season so far.
That was me last season, it can't get any worse, well maybe 0-16, but that is splitting hairs. They've at least got rid of Fangio, that should be 4 wins right there.

SESupergenius
02-10-2006, 01:45 PM
....You can find backs everywhere, all the time, and in any draft. Elite QB's are much tougher to secure.Then no need to go after another high draft pick if the QB trend is to find one in later rounds (Brady, Warner, Dilfer) Roethlisberger was drafted high, but I wouldn't say he won the Super Bowl without that defense giving him such a good backbone. No need to go after Young if we can find one in later rounds, which is what we should do this year because Banks isn't it.

aj.
02-10-2006, 01:49 PM
I wanted Young but I'm a Texans fan first so I'll live with their decision because I really have no choice. Carr is getting a second chance and hopefully he can turn his career around. If he can, that's great for all of us. If he can't ... well ... I don't even want to go there so I hope he succeeds - for all of our sake. Right or wrong, fans will not have a lot of patience with him this season and he will need to turn it around quickly - and rightfully so, because one of the reasons they are keeping him is because he is already "ahead of a rookie QB" in terms of the speed of game and those adjustments and experience. What I don't want to hear 1 1/2 years from now is "just give him time, it's a new system." I'll be cashing social security checks and we'll still be talking about haircuts, leadership and potential.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 01:56 PM
because one of the reasons they are keeping him is because he is already "ahead of a rookie QB" in terms of the speed of game and those adjustments and experience.


What have you seen that makes you believe David Carr knows how to read an NFL defense?? Let me in on the secret....... please.

aj.
02-10-2006, 02:03 PM
What have you seen that makes you believe David Carr knows how to read an NFL defense?? Let me in on the secret....... please.

Just because I state something the Texans are probably thinking, doesn't mean I necessarily subscribe to it. That's why I was throwing quotation marks around.

He has experience, but a lot of it is bad experience. One of Kubiak and Calhoun's main jobs early on will be to break DC of some bad habits.

SESupergenius
02-10-2006, 02:05 PM
It's taken Plummer almost 3 years with the offensive system of the Broncos to get some acclaim for his numbers, that's the only guage I can go by now with Carr. Plummer was put into a team that went 9-7 the previous season. Expecting Carr to go from 2-14 to playoffs is a little unreasonable. I don't want to hear that it's Carr's fault if we don't put up 30 points because our defense let up 31. I do expect them to improve to at least 6 wins next year, depending on how this offseason goes, like I said, getting rid of Fangio was at least worth 4. Call me crazy.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 02:07 PM
It's taken Plummer almost 3 years with the offensive system of the Broncos to get some acclaim for his numbers, that's the only guage I can go by now with Carr. Plummer was put into a team that went 9-7 the previous season. Expecting Carr to go from 2-14 to playoffs is a little unreasonable. I don't want to hear that it's Carr's fault if we don't put up 30 points because our defense let up 31. I do expect them to improve to at least 6 wins next year, depending on how this offseason goes, like I said, getting rid of Fangio was at least worth 2. Call me crazy.

Crazy, but not because of this post.

cuppacoffee
02-10-2006, 02:07 PM
I'm old school. All that fancy stuff Bush does spread out, and racing to the corner doesn't impress me. He's awesome, he'll be an elite one day, I'm sure of it. But I don't want him on my team. I've got no use for him.

Sounds like a VY description to me. High School spread out offense.

SESupergenius
02-10-2006, 02:11 PM
Crazy, but not because of this post.
That's what most people called me when I said our team wasn't good after all the Casserly shenanigans last offseason. I'm still looney I guess.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 02:13 PM
Sounds like a VY description to me. High School spread out offense.


I see your point.


But Vince has what I want in an NFL QB. The ability to make plays, once the play is broken. Sure, some people like the throw it away QB(Peyton) or the run for positive yards QB(Carr) I want the It's not over till I say it's over QB(Favre).

The offensive system, proper throwing technique, footwork..... that's all teachable.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 02:14 PM
That's what most people called me when I said our team wasn't good after all the Casserly shenanigans last offseason. I'm still looney I guess.

I was probably one of them as I was "more optimistic" with a 7-9 record and that is if DC performed at his third year level. Once again proving that I really do not know what the heck I am talking about. :cool:

SESupergenius
02-10-2006, 02:17 PM
I was probably one of them as I was "more optimistic" with a 7-9 record and that is if DC performed at his third year level. Once again proving that I really do not know what the heck I am talking about. :cool:
Well, you get a clean slate because really no one has a clue on how all of this is going to come out.

chuckm
02-10-2006, 02:19 PM
Well, you get a clean slate because really no one has a clue on how all of this is going to come out.

speak for yourself buddy .... :)

Today's been pretty contentious but I suspect that draft day will far surpass it ....

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 02:26 PM
speak for yourself buddy .... :)

Today's been pretty contentious but I suspect that draft day will far surpass it ....

Who invited you to the group hug? You're one click away from my ignore list. :)

chuckm
02-10-2006, 02:27 PM
Who invited you to the group hug? You're one click away from my ignore list. :)

noooooooooooooooooooo I can change ....

infantrycak
02-10-2006, 02:34 PM
Get a room or start internet singing kum-bah-yah. Don't y'all (just a non-subtle reminder for all y'all who can't spell a four letter word like y'all--9 out of 10 teachers say repetition works) know there is no room for non-extremism around here?

chuckm
02-10-2006, 02:37 PM
--9 out of 10 teachers say repetition works) know there is no room for non-extremism around here?

hmmm are you sure about this?

Carr Sucks
Carr Sucks
Carr Sucks
Carr Sucks
Carr Sucks
Carr Sucks
Carr Sucks
Carr Sucks
Carr Sucks
Carr Sucks

Holy Toledo .... you're right ... get McNair on the phone ....

Dr. Toro
02-10-2006, 02:42 PM
I'd like to see a little stick to go with this $24 million carrot. Pick up a backup capable of pushing Carr (McCown/Kitna) or draft Young. If Carr is valued at $8 million per, there's gotta be more value placed on Plan B.

Some people are intrinsically motivated to succeed. Others need to be pushed. It seems like we're hoping that this guy has that intrinsic desire, and that 50 million dollars and 200 sacks won't/hasn't diminished it.

cuppacoffee
02-10-2006, 02:45 PM
Backs are availble in the FA market every year. Starting caliber NFL backs are all over the first day of every draft....one reason guys like Henry and Edge couldn't get a trade partner willing to trade a high pick the last few years. I could care less what you think of my opinion btw.

Fair enough...
Its just that over a period of time there are certain posters that most of us on this board seem to lead more credence to than others. My fault. I will personally assign less importance to your opinions in the future and keep my opinion of your opinions to myself.... we're :cool:

BTW.... Bush will be a better, more productive player, than either of the players you named.

But that is JMHO though. :D


:coffee:

Vinny
02-10-2006, 02:46 PM
fine by me

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 02:58 PM
I strongly disagree just because the QB got a new deal we have to go out and throw the ball throw the roof. The offense will do that regardless.

The QB reminds me off a XBOX........
If you have the system(QB) by itself it is not going to work.
You have to get cables, inputs for HD, a HDTV, a controler, a game and a PERSON(Kubiak) that knows how the system works, how to plug it in, how to get the best out of the XBOX(Mr.McNair).


and Vince is the Xbox 360...:yahoo:



couldn't resist.

whiskeyrbl
02-10-2006, 03:01 PM
With Morency having one year under his belt, and all ships rising due to the Kubiak Tsunami, he will be able to foster the load that will extend Davis through the season. And if you think Davis is injury prone, then how in the heck are we going to move him to another team?

The value of the running game will have to take a backseat next year in order to show Kubiak's touch on Carr and the passing game. Expect an upgrade on the O line, TE and WR (including resign of Gaff). I know people will say Bush at WR, but how many routes has he run in the NFL? In a Kubiak offense? How will he block? Will he pick up the playbook? Zone blocking? With one unproven 8 million dollar man extended the prospect of another unproven 7 million dollar man joining him in the backfield next year is nil in my opinion.
This can be said about any rookie coming into the NFL

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 03:03 PM
I strongly disagree just because the QB got a new deal we have to go out and throw the ball throw the roof. The offense will do that regardless.

The QB reminds me off a XBOX........
If you have the system(QB) by itself it is not going to work.
You have to get cables, inputs for HD, a HDTV, a controler, a game and a PERSON(Kubiak) that knows how the system works, how to plug it in, how to get the best out of the XBOX(Mr.McNair).

Mr. McNair is not getting burned twice on this investment. Moreover, Kubiak was brought in as an offensive whiz and the backlash for not bringing in Young will be real (not that it bothers me). He will have to have measurements. This ain't XBOX, this is a business.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 03:07 PM
This can be said about any rookie coming into the NFL

You may have missed my point or you may be the type that will spend franchise type money on unproven NFL players. Either way is cool as neither of us have a job on the line for this pending decision. :)

Honoring Earl 34
02-10-2006, 03:24 PM
:crying: I really think Carr is in a can't win situation . He has to come out strong next year or he'll get booed for every little mistake . If he plays good the fans will say its about time .

I wonder if the Texans feel the tension on this or is it a no brainer ? Gary Kubiak finally gets his HC job and does'nt even get a honeymoon .

Double Barrel
02-10-2006, 03:26 PM
and Vince is the Xbox 360...:yahoo:

couldn't resist.

And Reggie Bush is the Playstation 3 then? :D

Sorry, I couldn't resist, either.

I gotta' say that I'm supporting the FO decisions because I'm a fan.

But the idea of spending elite QB money on Carr is a little suspect. I won't boo the dude, and I'll cheer him on as our team's QB....but...I certainly respect the pov of all three camps (ie. Bush, Young, or trade down), as they all have some validity to their arguments.

jerek
02-10-2006, 03:26 PM
and Vince is the Xbox 360...:yahoo:



couldn't resist.

A buggy, overpriced piece of crap that doesn't begin to compare to a mere PC four years his senior? ;-)

whiskeyrbl
02-10-2006, 03:36 PM
You may have missed my point or you may be the type that will spend franchise type money on unproven NFL players. Either way is cool as neither of us have a job on the line for this pending decision. :)
I haven't missed your point i agree that Carr at this point is overpaid,but,if everyone they talked to said Carr is not the problem,you have got to put personel around him to give him that extra 2 seconds in the pocket he needs.From what i hear Bush is an excellent blocker and picks up the blitz well.Something DD has not proved he can do yet.And as far as the running game taking a backseat i think that is as far from the truth as you can get.Ball control wins games.Just a penny for your thoughts on this,If Bush comes in and proves to be athreat as he has on every level so far,don't you believe a play action will just freeze the LB's and DB's in their tracks allowing that extra 2 seconds and freeing up at least 1 receiver?

Honoring Earl 34
02-10-2006, 03:42 PM
:confused: The biggest problem would be the Texans FO telling Bob what he wants to hear just to get or keep a job .

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 03:48 PM
I haven't missed your point i agree that Carr at this point is overpaid,but,if everyone they talked to said Carr is not the problem,you have got to put personel around him to give him that extra 2 seconds in the pocket he needs.From what i hear Bush is an excellent blocker and picks up the blitz well.Something DD has not proved he can do yet.And as far as the running game taking a backseat i think that is as far from the truth as you can get.Ball control wins games.Just a penny for your thoughts on this,If Bush comes in and proves to be athreat as he has on every level so far,don't you believe a play action will just freeze the LB's and DB's in their tracks allowing that extra 2 seconds and freeing up at least 1 receiver?

There are a lot of if's there and you have not even taken into consideration how valuable Davis and Morency may be in Kubiak and Reeves eyes. Remember he kept the RB coach on staff.

Expectations are not high next year, so why risk so much money on an unproven talent at a non need position?

whiskeyrbl
02-10-2006, 03:56 PM
There are a lot of if's there and you have not even taken into consideration how valuable Davis and Morency may be in Kubiak and Reeves eyes. Remember he kept the RB coach on staff.

Expectations are not high next year, so why risk so much money on an unproven talent at a non need position?
There is always going to be IF's in this situation.KubiaK likes to run a RB by commitee, so DD/Bush /Moreancy,seems like a very stoudt RB corp.I think you and i can agree that we will miss the playoffs this year.Take this year get your weapons ,build the line and D 2-7 rd. and FA and the draft and FA next year, and i think then we can be contenders.I think their is enough talent in the draft to take that "IF" chance on Bush. Just my opinion.

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 03:59 PM
There is always going to be IF's in this situation.KubiaK likes to run a RB by commitee, so DD/Bush /Moreancy,seems like a very stoudt RB corp.I think you and i can agree that we will miss the playoffs this year.Take this year get your weapons ,build the line and D 2-7 rd. and FA and the draft and FA next year, and i think then we can be contenders.I think their is enough talent in the draft to take that "IF" chance on Bush. Just my opinion.

Enjoy the offseason my man, we will have to agree to disagree later. Getting worn out. ;)

Kaiser Toro
02-10-2006, 04:14 PM
I saw him today at the reception
A pen and contract in his hand
I knew he would get his extension
At his feet was the football man

No, you can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
And if you try sometime you find
You get what you need

And I went down to the message board demonstration
To get my fair share of abuse
Singing, "We're gonna vent our frustration
If we don't we're gonna blow a 50-amp fuse"
Sing it to me now...

You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need
Oh baby, yeah, yeah!

I went down to the Fannin drugstore
To get my prescription filled
I was standing in line with Mr. McClain
And man, did he look pretty ill
We decided that we would have a soda
My favorite flavor, battle red
I sung my song to Mr. McClain
Yeah, and he said one word to me, and that was "dead"
I said to him

You can't always get what you want, no!
You can't always get what you want (tell ya baby)
You can't always get what you want (no)
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You get what you need
Oh yes! Woo!