PDA

View Full Version : Bush/Young Question


TJFord
02-06-2006, 04:43 PM
I know, I know, I know. There are already a zillion threads dedicated to this topic, but what can one more hurt? What I want to know is who you all want and how many times you have seen each of these guys. I just get the feeling from reading the posts on this board that few people from the Young camp have watched a lot of Bush and few from the Bush camp have seen a lot of VY. Anyway, to kick it off I am in the VY camp. I have seen every game of his since the state championship four or five years ago. I have only seen Bush play in 5 or 6 games.

Corrosion
02-06-2006, 05:58 PM
I think they are Both going to be Fantastic in the NFL .... Im glad I dont have to make the decision .... Ive watched just about every UT game for the last Decade or more.... Seen probably 18-20 USC games in the past 3 seasons ..... Its a toss up to me at this point , Neither play a position of REAL need for the Texans .... Although I think both would be a huge help in the long run .

Dont ask me to pick one over the other .... at this point I just cant pick a winner ...

kbourda
02-06-2006, 07:49 PM
I know, I know, I know. There are already a zillion threads dedicated to this topic, but what can one more hurt? What I want to know is who you all want and how many times you have seen each of these guys. I just get the feeling from reading the posts on this board that few people from the Young camp have watched a lot of Bush and few from the Bush camp have seen a lot of VY. Anyway, to kick it off I am in the VY camp. I have seen every game of his since the state championship four or five years ago. I have only seen Bush play in 5 or 6 games.

This is a very good question. I always wondered that myself. I watch a ton of college football (if you ask me it's a better game than the pros). I've seen Bush play a bunch. Probably as much as I have seen Vincent in college. Man, the reason no one is responding to this is because the Bush die hards have just heard how good he is and not really seen him play. Bush is good. Vincent is good.

stevo3883
02-06-2006, 09:59 PM
yeah its true. Lots of the people here are NFL fans first and foremost. they rely on ESPN highlights or newspaper articles for their college info.

Ive had people tell me Carr is as fast as VY. Ive heard people say DD is as fast as bush. Ive seen someone say they didnt know who VY was until the rose bowl...

I LOVE college football. my favorite sport #1 no questions. i love the texans. i have season tickets to both the texans and horns, and i cheer for them both.

I love good football. I watched every USC game that was on this year, and most from last. and god knows ive seen every UT game for the past 10 years.

TJFord
02-07-2006, 11:29 AM
Yeah, after reading how VY was only a slighly better scrambler than Carr in another thread I had to ask this question. I, like many others, have watched all of UT's games for the past nine or ten years and what we saw in the Rose Bowl is what VY did in almost EVERY game. He might not have had the total yards or as many TDs in every game but he WAS the reason they won most every game. Anyway, I hope to find out how the amount of times you've seen each play correllates to who you want.

BlueThunder
02-07-2006, 05:12 PM
I think there both game changers but taking a RB #1 is like playing russian rulette.That pick scares me because Bush is so thin.He's like picking a utility back at #1.I don't think he's a 20 carry back....I've watched both enough to know what they can do...I would feel safer taking Muarice Drew late,,or Andra Hall....Lets wait for the combine!Try Vince Young at WR at the combine...If he was WR he would probably be top.I just don't see Vince busting or have injury as much as a Micheal Vick.Vince is big strong and can break arm tackles..He's my pick hands down and I would start him..I would scale the offense down to help him.He's going to be great back there scrambling every time they go into coverage..Thats all i'm going to say,i'll let you guys decide..

chuckm
02-08-2006, 02:46 PM
found this at Ourlads ... http://www.ourlads.com/2006NFLMockDraft.html


Reggie Bush

All the adjectives - electrifying, explosive, elusive, instinctive, fluid, flexible, outstanding vision, excellent body control, sure hands, rare burst, and toughness. A multitask back that will keep defensive coordinators up at night and new coach, Gary Kubiak using him in creative ways.

Vince Young

A rare athlete that makes plays with his legs. In the NFL you make plays as a QB with your arm. Young hasn't demonstrated that he can read complex defenses or complete a pass through a small window of opportunity. Will a team invest the third pick and millions of dollars in a developmental quarterback that may not be ready until he is eligible for free agency? A top five athlete should not be confused with a top five position player. The Titans need players. If they can't do a deal to move up to take Matt Leinart they may trade down and pick up more picks..that is, if they decide to pass on Young.

thunderkyss
02-08-2006, 02:59 PM
My brother-in-law is big on College football. I try to stay away from it... my Sundays are totally consumed by Church,and Football. If I was into the NCAA, I wouldn't get anything done on weekends.

That said, he threw a shindig for the RoseBowl 2004. After watching that game, I made a point to watch every UT game this year. Jamaal Charles is from Pt Arthur, and more or less went to the same highschool, so that was another draw...

When everyone figured we'd be in the top 2 or 3 picks in the draft, I was kinda upset, that Vince wasn't going to be in the draft...... now look where we're at.

I've seen two games Reggie has been in. The Rose Bowl, and I think the UCLA game (did they play Cal??) anyway, I did expect more out of him in the RoseBowl, but I'm not ragging on Bush or anything. I just think it is silly that the Texans would draft another Running Back. The only knock I see on DD, is that he gets hurt. I don't think it is uncommon for RB to be hurt there first couple of seasons in the NFL...... I also think our OLine had something to do with it. But with Wells and Morency, it's really more of a non issue. DD might not break the Big one, and threaten to score every time he touches the ball, but he can very well get you a first down everytime he gets the ball. If defenses don't respect that, then we need to use that to our advantage.

I've got nothing at all, against Bush....

kbourda
02-08-2006, 03:32 PM
found this at Ourlads ... http://www.ourlads.com/2006NFLMockDraft.html


Reggie Bush

All the adjectives - electrifying, explosive, elusive, instinctive, fluid, flexible, outstanding vision, excellent body control, sure hands, rare burst, and toughness. A multitask back that will keep defensive coordinators up at night and new coach, Gary Kubiak using him in creative ways.

Vince Young

A rare athlete that makes plays with his legs. In the NFL you make plays as a QB with your arm. Young hasn't demonstrated that he can read complex defenses or complete a pass through a small window of opportunity. Will a team invest the third pick and millions of dollars in a developmental quarterback that may not be ready until he is eligible for free agency? A top five athlete should not be confused with a top five position player. The Titans need players. If they can't do a deal to move up to take Matt Leinart they may trade down and pick up more picks..that is, if they decide to pass on Young.

Wow. If I never saw him play i'd think the guy was Tommy Fraizer. Absolutely wow! I see he was the only person in that entire list he took the time to add a little "extra" analysis. It blows my mind to see the great lengths that people are willing to go to make light of their opinion.

MorKnolle
02-08-2006, 03:39 PM
Wow. If I never saw him play i'd think the guy was Tommy Fraizer. Absolutely wow! I see he was the only person in that entire list he took the time to add a little "extra" analysis. It blows my mind to see the great lengths that people are willing to go to make light of their opinion.

You have to do just as much digging to come up with some of these articles praising Vince for being the best QB in however many years as you do to find articles that point out his weaknesses and don't claim him to be all that. This particular article downgrades Vince quite a bit, but it's no more extreme than some of the pro-Vince stuff that's been thrown around.

stevo3883
02-08-2006, 04:14 PM
You have to do just as much digging to come up with some of these articles praising Vince for being the best QB in however many years as you do to find articles that point out his weaknesses and don't claim him to be all that. This particular article downgrades Vince quite a bit, but it's no more extreme than some of the pro-Vince stuff that's been thrown around.


well, that guy has greenway rated ahead of aj hawk. so that just shows how much credibility he really has

MorKnolle
02-08-2006, 05:53 PM
well, that guy has greenway rated ahead of aj hawk. so that just shows how much credibility he really has

I can see that, I personally think Hawk is probably the better player and certainly has more hype, but Greenway is a little more physically imposing and I could see him going ahead of Hawk depending on what team was up there. I think a team running a 3-4 defense could take Greenway ahead of Hawk, but the highest one is the 49ers a #6/7 so I'm not sure if Hawk even falls to them to make that choice, and they have a ton of needs on their team anyways and could draft almost anything except a QB.

stevo3883
02-08-2006, 06:41 PM
I can see that, I personally think Hawk is probably the better player and certainly has more hype, but Greenway is a little more physically imposing and I could see him going ahead of Hawk depending on what team was up there. I think a team running a 3-4 defense could take Greenway ahead of Hawk, but the highest one is the 49ers a #6/7 so I'm not sure if Hawk even falls to them to make that choice, and they have a ton of needs on their team anyways and could draft almost anything except a QB.

ok... seriously. Greenway is taller and that is it. Hawk is stronger, faster, and has better instincts. They arent even in the same galaxy as far as skills go. There is absolutely no possible way 0% never going to happen ill drop a bomb on my head chance that that happens.

I dont argue dumb stuff usually, but i PROMISE you no team would ever take any other LB over Hawk.

Vinny
02-08-2006, 06:43 PM
ok... seriously. Greenway is taller and that is it. Hawk is stronger, faster, and has better instincts. They arent even in the same galaxy as far as skills go. There is absolutely no possible way 0% never going to happen ill drop a bomb on my head chance that that happens.

I dont argue dumb stuff usually, but i PROMISE you no team would ever take any other LB over Hawk.It's my understanding that there are many people in the NFL community that have Greenway ahead of Hawk. You don't need to worry about your broken promise though, it's understood.:redtowel:

stevo3883
02-08-2006, 06:44 PM
It's my understanding that there are many people in the NFL community that have Greenway ahead of Hawk. You don't need to worry about your broken promise though, it's understood.:redtowel:


hold me to it. please

on draft day PLEEEEEEEEEEASE hold me to it.

stevo3883
02-08-2006, 06:49 PM
this Hawk-Greenway seems too much like the Cutler-Young thing. Scouts find some guy and just start touting him up and up and up. Its never based on how they played, but usually on some minor charcteristic that one guy has that makes them go "wow hes better than X because he has Y!"

(Cutler is better than YOUNG because he has A QUICKER RELEASE)

(Greenway is better than Hawk because he has BETTER SIZE)

kbourda
02-08-2006, 06:51 PM
You have to do just as much digging to come up with some of these articles praising Vince for being the best QB in however many years as you do to find articles that point out his weaknesses and don't claim him to be all that. This particular article downgrades Vince quite a bit, but it's no more extreme than some of the pro-Vince stuff that's been thrown around.

True. But to say "he makes plays with his feet"????? Really, am I the only guy to see that this analysis is completely unfair?

Vinny
02-08-2006, 07:02 PM
this Hawk-Greenway seems too much like the Cutler-Young thing. Scouts find some guy and just start touting him up and up and up. Its never based on how they played, but usually on some minor charcteristic that one guy has that makes them go "wow hes better than X because he has Y!"

(Cutler is better than YOUNG because he has A QUICKER RELEASE)

(Greenway is better than Hawk because he has BETTER SIZE)Actually that is Forrest Gumpish and the entire evaluation process is really not that simple (obviously). I was talking about Cutler a long time ago myself and think he is a great prospect. He isn't a better prospect than Young though. I feel for anyone who thinks this and believes it.....I figure most of this kind of stuff is regurgitated spin myself.... Most of the people here only assume they "know" what "the scouts" are thinking. Most everything you see right now is high speculation and common rumor. When we watch the actual draft we will really know what everyone in the NFL community is thinking. The posturing is rampant now.

kbourda
02-08-2006, 07:04 PM
Actually that is Forrest Gumpish and the entire evaluation process is really not that simple (obviously). I was talking about Cutler a long time ago myself and think he is a great prospect. He isn't a better prospect than Young though. I feel for anyone who thinks this and believes it.....I figure most of this kind of stuff is regurgitated spin myself.... Most of the people here only assume they "know" what "the scouts" are thinking. Most everything you see right now is high speculation and common rumor. When we watch the actual draft we will really know what everyone in the NFL community is thinking. The posturing is rampant now.

True that!

infantrycak
02-08-2006, 07:13 PM
Most of the people here only assume they "know" what "the scouts" are thinking. Most everything you see right now is high speculation and common rumor. When we watch the actual draft we will really know what everyone in the NFL community is thinking. The posturing is rampant now.

It is hilarious to see the spread of "information" on the internet and then the certainty resulting from it--mainly in the draft and politics. 5 guys copying some other guy who didn't even watch game tape can all put out draft web-sites and all the sudden everyone agrees Reggie Young is the greatest player of all time. Regular MB posters like aj and the guys at hpf end up getting quoted on KFFL and elsewhere (not their fault) as if they have some connection or inside information on the Texans.

Hookem Horns
02-08-2006, 09:21 PM
I have seen every game VY has played at Texas. Living in Austin, obviously we get limited USC coverage. However I did watch every game USC that was on here, I think maybe there were 4. Unless you have ESPN game plan, it's impossible to watch every Texas AND USC game.

I'll be honest, when watching USC, I was more impressed with Leinart than Bush. About halfway through the season I was wondering if we would have a shot at Leinart because that was around the time I gave up on Carr. VY never even crossed my mind because I was convinced he would stay in school for his senior year.

I even created a thread about Leinart and mainly received negative replies. One said Leinart had a bad wheel, others were saying that he was a product of the system, others said he only that good because of the talent around him. However, most agreed we needed to do something about Carr.

Texans_Chick
02-08-2006, 09:48 PM
found this at Ourlads ... http://www.ourlads.com/2006NFLMockDraft.html

Vince Young

A rare athlete that makes plays with his legs. In the NFL you make plays as a QB with your arm. Young hasn't demonstrated that he can read complex defenses or complete a pass through a small window of opportunity. Will a team invest the third pick and millions of dollars in a developmental quarterback that may not be ready until he is eligible for free agency? A top five athlete should not be confused with a top five position player. The Titans need players. If they can't do a deal to move up to take Matt Leinart they may trade down and pick up more picks..that is, if they decide to pass on Young.

I listened to the guy from ourlads on 610. Right before he launched into his VY analysis, he (kinda defensive sounding) spent a lot of time talking about his bona fides for why he could evaluate QBs. (played the position for podunks and coached the position for podunks, IIRC).

His biggest concern with VY was that he believed that the reason that Young got all his receptions is that the Texas coaches did a good job of scheming, that allowed his receivers to be mostly wide open. That his belief was that VY would struggle if he needed to throw accurately to a small space on the field, like you do in the NFL.

My personal opinion on this was that the guy sounded like he was reaching a little--kinda overstating to defend his position. And he failed to mention that one of the reasons why VY got to throw to guys that were open was that the defenses had to respect his ability to run.

My general view of the Bush v. Young debate is that both of these guys seem to be 2G2BTs--too good to be trues. And when as human we are faced with 2G2BTs, we are instantly suspicious. We have to find the hidden catch.

Sometimes things truly are too good to be true, and sometime things are as they appear and you hit pay dirt.

The draft is a hit or miss proposition sometimes, but it is sometimes unintentionally funny to read old draft notes on prospects. Overhyping and underhyping.

For example, I am not saying that Detroit woulda had a better result, but check out this draft note:

Running commentary of the 2004 draft (http://www.collegefootballnews.com/2004/Columnists/Fiu/SOC/NFL_Draft_PartOne.htm)

"7) Detroit Lions from Cleveland Browns
The pick is going to be Roy Williams. I still say you wouldn’t be nuts to try and trade Joey Harrington and take Ben Roethlisberger, but obviously that’ll never happen. … This is too early for Steven Jackson, but Detroit has to be giving it a wee bit of thought.
Selection: WR Roy Williams, Texas
Look at that big ol’ pimp. That suit makes Williams look like a giant banana. … The idea of Charles Rogers and Williams on the same team is extremely scary. Now the Lions need someone to run the ball and someone who can throw it consistently. Detroit got Cleveland’s second-round pick to swap in the first round. There has to be a hope that a Chris Perry-like running back drops there. … It’s interesting that Irvin is dogging the pick a little bit. I’d assume he’d always be pro-receiver. However, he’s being weird with some point about Williams not coming out sooner. … The Browns gave up a second round pick to move up one slot?! There were too many good players on the board to do that."

(my emphasis)

Ran across this the other day and thought a little about our situation. You know, the whole sticking with our QB, giving him more tools even if they are already team strengths.

But the wayback machine can't tell you if Big Ben coulda helped a team as much as he helped the Steelers, and vice versa, and there is no alternative future machine that can tell you what the Texans look like with different picks.

Just thought it was mildly interesting.

chuckm
02-08-2006, 09:58 PM
I listened to the guy from ourlads on 610. Right before he launched into his VY analysis, he (kinda defensive sounding) spent a lot of time talking about his bona fides for why he could evaluate QBs. (played the position for podunks and coached the position for podunks, IIRC).

His biggest concern with VY was that he believed that the reason that Young got all his receptions is that the Texas coaches did a good job of scheming, that allowed his receivers to be mostly wide open. That his belief was that VY would struggle if he needed to throw accurately to a small space on the field, like you do in the NFL.

My personal opinion on this was that the guy sounded like he was reaching a little--kinda overstating to defend his position. And he failed to mention that one of the reasons why VY got to throw to guys that were open was that the defenses had to respect his ability to run.

My general view of the Bush v. Young debate is that both of these guys seem to be 2G2BTs--too good to be trues. And when as human we are faced with 2G2BTs, we are instantly suspicious. We have to find the hidden catch.

Sometimes things truly are too good to be true, and sometime things are as they appear and you hit pay dirt.

The draft is a hit or miss proposition sometimes, but it is sometimes unintentionally funny to read old draft notes on prospects. Overhyping and underhyping.

For example, I am not saying that Detroit woulda had a better result, but check out this draft note:

Running commentary of the 2004 draft (http://www.collegefootballnews.com/2004/Columnists/Fiu/SOC/NFL_Draft_PartOne.htm)

"7) Detroit Lions from Cleveland Browns
The pick is going to be Roy Williams. I still say you wouldn’t be nuts to try and trade Joey Harrington and take Ben Roethlisberger, but obviously that’ll never happen. … This is too early for Steven Jackson, but Detroit has to be giving it a wee bit of thought.
Selection: WR Roy Williams, Texas
Look at that big ol’ pimp. That suit makes Williams look like a giant banana. … The idea of Charles Rogers and Williams on the same team is extremely scary. Now the Lions need someone to run the ball and someone who can throw it consistently. Detroit got Cleveland’s second-round pick to swap in the first round. There has to be a hope that a Chris Perry-like running back drops there. … It’s interesting that Irvin is dogging the pick a little bit. I’d assume he’d always be pro-receiver. However, he’s being weird with some point about Williams not coming out sooner. … The Browns gave up a second round pick to move up one slot?! There were too many good players on the board to do that."

(my emphasis)

Ran across this the other day and thought a little about our situation. You know, the whole sticking with our QB, giving him more tools even if they are already team strengths.

But the wayback machine can't tell you if Big Ben coulda helped a team as much as he helped the Steelers, and vice versa, and there is no alternative future machine that can tell you what the Texans look like with different picks.

Just thought it was mildly interesting.


Ourlads has missed on their share of projections but year in and year out they're pretty accurate ....

Vinny
02-08-2006, 10:07 PM
Ourlads has missed on their share of projections but year in and year out they're pretty accurate ....Ourlads changed hands in 2004 and I'm not sure they have done as well as they have in the past. I don't think their draft guide was as good the last year or so.

chuckm
02-08-2006, 10:10 PM
Ourlads changed hands in 2004 and I'm not sure they have done as well as they have in the past. I don't think their draft guide was as good the last year or so.


Ourlads has missed on their share of projections but year in and year out they're pretty accurate .... I stand by that

Vinny
02-08-2006, 10:17 PM
I figured you stood behind your words the first time you typed them.

chuckm
02-08-2006, 10:19 PM
I figured you stood behind your words the first time you typed them.


now you have proof positive

Kaiser Toro
02-08-2006, 10:20 PM
That interchange is better than the crap my wife has me watching right now. :)

chuckm
02-08-2006, 10:21 PM
the grammys here .... ugh ...

infantrycak
02-08-2006, 11:08 PM
That interchange is better than the crap my wife has me watching right now. :)

Thank goodness for DVR's (and a wife willing to let you use it)--3 hours of horror compacted into 1 hour.