PDA

View Full Version : 05' Lineman Stat Breakdown


TEXANS84
02-06-2006, 04:00 PM
I did a thread similar to this one back halfway through the season to see where the weakness was coming from on our #1 problem. Here is the follow up, and/or finishing touch to the 2005's seasons dismal performance:

LT/LG Chester Pitts:
16 Games
5 Penalties/45 yards (1-FS, 1-HLD)
8.25 sacks allowed for 40 yards

LT Victor Riley (former Texan)
10 Games
4 Penalties/20 yards (3-FS)
7.00 sacks allowed for 61.25 yards

G Milford Brown:
13 Games
6 Penalties/35 yards (5-FS, 1-HLD)
5.00 sacks allowed for 40.50 yards

C Drew Hodgdon:
4 Games
2 Penalties/20 yards (2-HLD)
0.50 sacks allowed for 4 yards

C Steve McKinney:
16 Games
3 Penalties/15 yards (3 FS)
9.25 sacks allowed for 69 yards

G Zach Weigert:
12 Games
2 Penalties/15 yards (1-FS, 1-HLD)
5.50 sacks allowed for 34 yards

RT Todd Wade:
9 Games
5 Penalties/30 yards (4-FS, 1 HLD)
6.00 sacks allowed for 39 yards

Granted, that was just the "core" of our offensive line. I left several players off like Seth Wand (very limited action, and still managed to achieve 2.00 sacks), Todd Washington (0.0 sacks allowed) and unfortunatley, you cannot reference the amount of sacks credited to the runningback/fullback/and tight ends.


*Reference*
http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asp

chuckm
02-06-2006, 04:03 PM
LT/LG Chester Pitts:
16 Games
5 Penalties/45 yards (1-FS, 1-HLD)
8.25 sacks allowed for 40 yards

How does 8.25 sacks compare league wide with other LTs? My first reaction is that this number isn't so bad considering he's facing the best pass rusher almost every week ....

AustinJB
02-06-2006, 04:20 PM
How does 8.25 sacks compare league wide with other LTs? My first reaction is that this number isn't so bad considering he's facing the best pass rusher almost every week ....

This would still not be fair to Pitts b/c he did not ONLY play LT. Unfortunately, I don't know if you can determine the specific number of sacks that he gave up in each position that he played.

chuckm
02-06-2006, 04:22 PM
This would still not be fair to Pitts b/c he did not ONLY play LT. Unfortunately, I don't know if you can determine the specific number of sacks that he gave up in each position that he played.


very true ...

TEXANS84
02-06-2006, 04:24 PM
How does 8.25 sacks compare league wide with other LTs? My first reaction is that this number isn't so bad considering he's facing the best pass rusher almost every week ....

Lets measure the rest of the AFC South, considering that would be the better gauge of the situation.

Indianapolis Colts Tarik Glenn:
16 Games
10 Penalties/60 yards (7-FS, 1 HLD, 1 OTR)
3.25 sacks allowed for 15.25 yards

Tennessee Titans Brad Hopkins:
15 Games
12 Penalties/81 yards (8-FS, 2 HLD, 2 OTR)
5.50 sacks allowed for 43.00 yards

Jacksonville Jaguars Khalif Barnes:
13 Games
2 Penalties/30 yards (2 OTR)
3.50 sacks allowed for 17.50 yards

To be fair, Jacksonville subbed in Barnes for Pearson on week 4:

Jacksonville Jaguars Mike Pearson:
4 Games
3 Penalties/15 yards (2-FS, 1 HLD)
3.50 sacks allowed for 16.00 yards

Combined: 7.00 sacks allowed.

Vinny
02-06-2006, 04:25 PM
Also, these are "stats" that are very subjective. Whomever gathered them probably have no clue who missed blocking assignments on many of the plays. They can only see what is obvious, or what they think is obvious.

Big B Texan Fan
02-06-2006, 04:25 PM
So where did the other sax come from, the "Sack Ghost" that haunts Reliant Stadium?

Texans Horror
02-06-2006, 04:25 PM
Looking at Pitts' stats for the Texans, he allowed this many sacks:

2002 - 15
2003 - 5
2004 - 6
2005 - 8

So he's gotten worse over the past couple of years. Not that I'm saying he's a horrible tackle. Just letting the evidence speak for itself.

I have a question. I know in two games he lined up against Freeney when we played the Colts. Chuckm, who else are you talking about? I never looked at it from the standpoint of trying to grade the defensive players he went up against.

Runner
02-06-2006, 04:26 PM
How does 8.25 sacks compare league wide with other LTs? My first reaction is that this number isn't so bad considering he's facing the best pass rusher almost every week ....

Modified question:

How does 8.25 sacks compare league wide with other LTs running a very restricted offense?

This past season was such a waste. In many areas I don't think we can even compare our stats with those of other teams.

chuckm
02-06-2006, 04:27 PM
Lets measure the rest of the AFC South, considering that would be the better gauge of the situation.

Indianapolis Colts Tarik Glenn:
16 Games
10 Penalties/60 yards (7-FS, 1 HLD, 1 OTR)
3.25 sacks allowed for 15.25 yards

Tennessee Titans Brad Hopkins:
15 Games
12 Penalties/81 yards (8-FS, 2 HLD, 2 OTR)
5.50 sacks allowed for 43.00 yards

Jacksonville Jaguars Khalif Barnes:
13 Games
2 Penalties/30 yards (2 OTR)
3.50 sacks allowed for 17.50 yards

To be fair, Jacksonville subbed in Barnes for Pearson on week 4:

Jacksonville Jaguars Mike Pearson:
4 Games
3 Penalties/15 yards (2-FS, 1 HLD)
3.50 sacks allowed for 16.00 yards

Combined: 7.00 sacks allowed.


thanks for the effort ... I guess 8.25 isn't all that good, maybe I was thinking in terms of the Texans ...

chuckm
02-06-2006, 04:28 PM
Modified question:

How does 8.25 sacks compare league wide with other LTs running a very restricted offense?

This past season was such a waste. In many areas I don't think we can even compare our stats with those of other teams.


yea no doubt .... that'll be impossible to quantify though ... I think he does a good job week in and week out

Vinny
02-06-2006, 04:35 PM
yea no doubt .... that'll be impossible to quantify though ... I think he does a good job week in and week outAll anyone has to do is pop in a tape of Pitts working against an elite pass rusher like Freeney to know where he is as a pass blocker. Pure stats alone (especially some that are this subjective) will give a false impression of players.

AustinJB
02-06-2006, 04:37 PM
Looking at Pitts' stats for the Texans, he allowed this many sacks:

2002 - 15
2003 - 5
2004 - 6
2005 - 8

So he's gotten worse over the past couple of years. Not that I'm saying he's a horrible tackle. Just letting the evidence speak for itself.


If I remember correctly, wasn't 2003 the only season that he played full-time at LT? That is also when he had his lowest # of sacks....Coincidence?:rolleyes:

Texans Horror
02-06-2006, 04:50 PM
If I remember correctly, wasn't 2003 the only season that he played full-time at LT? That is also when he had his lowest # of sacks....Coincidence?:rolleyes:

Not a coincidence at all.

Check out McKinney:

2002 - 2 sacks
2003 - 3 sacks
2004 - 3 sacks
2005 - 9 sacks

Here's Wade:
2003 - 1
2004 - 5
2005 - 5

(Wade's not a good example because he played most of the games every year, not all of them like McKinney.) However, I hope you see the trend. The line played much better in 2003. Like I said, I'm not trying to bash the beloved Pitts. Maybe we can look to other factors. Say, poor coaching...

Runner
02-06-2006, 04:53 PM
Not a coincidence at all.

Check out McKinney:

2002 - 2 sacks
2003 - 3 sacks
2004 - 3 sacks
2005 - 9 sacks

Here's Wade:
2003 - 1
2004 - 5
2005 - 5

(Wade's not a good example because he played most of the games every year, not all of them like McKinney.) However, I hope you see the trend. The line played much better in 2003. Like I said, I'm not trying to bash the beloved Pitts. Maybe we can look to other factors. Say, poor coaching...

2004 - Enter Pendry

JohnGalt
02-06-2006, 05:03 PM
2005 is a junk year statistically.

Poor technique coaching and poor play calling...

Did anyone play all 16 games at the same position?

The offense in 2005 was designed to "protect" Carr (whoops!!), we had more blocking from the backs and TE's. It had the opposite effect.

Kubiak and Co. will work wonders with many of the existing players. I think that we're only one stud lineman away from a servicable line.

TEXANS84
02-06-2006, 05:40 PM
Modified question:

How does 8.25 sacks compare league wide with other LTs running a very restricted offense?

Lets compare to the Bears (29th), the Jets (31st), and the 49ers (32nd):

Unfortunatley on the 49ers depth chart it lists Snyder as the only LT, which only looks as if he played half the season. I don't know who played the remainder/or start of the season at that position. I'll post his stats anyways:

San Francisco 49ers Adam Snyder:
16 Games (8 games started)
5 Penalties/32 yards (2-FS, 2-HLD, 1-OTR)
5.50 sacks allowed for 32 yards

New York Jets Adrian Jones:
16 Games
7 Penalties/52 yards (3-FS, 4-HLD)
8.00 sacks allowed for 49 yards

Chicago Bears John Tait:
15 Games
6 Penalties/43 yards (3-FS, 3-HLD)
9.50 sacks allowed for 58 yards


That actually ended up being a pretty good question, and an interesting comparison. Granted, it looks as if pressure on the quarterback is what is crippling these offenses. In Chicago's case, thankfully they were able to rely on a stout defense that actually carried them into the playoffs.

LowDownSkinny
02-06-2006, 07:00 PM
Wow, those stats had to take awhile to compile. Nice work.

There is no question in my mind that pass protection is the #1 concern.

Having said that, taking Vince or Bush does not address that concern.

Both have great things they can bring to the table, but what the Texans need is: 1) focus on pass-blocking by all positions (OL, TE, FB, RB, WR), 2) a new coaching/teaching approach to achieve that end, 3) 2 first-round picks with at least one being an OT.

Corrosion
02-06-2006, 07:01 PM
Also, these are "stats" that are very subjective. Whomever gathered them probably have no clue who missed blocking assignments on many of the plays. They can only see what is obvious, or what they think is obvious.


I think this is overlooked a lot ....Blitz pick ups ,missed assignments , stunts .... hard to say who should be credited w/ allowing a sack in many situations

But take a look at the 9+ sacks given up by the Starting Center ..... How does that stack up to the rest of the NFL ?
That number really concerns me more that Pitts . The center isnt generally lining up against the best pass rusher ...:twocents:

infantrycak
02-06-2006, 08:45 PM
If I remember correctly, wasn't 2003 the only season that he played full-time at LT? That is also when he had his lowest # of sacks....Coincidence?:rolleyes:

Pitts played LT full time in 2002 and 2003 and then was shifted to LG for all of 2004. In addition to what Vinny has pointed out, people have to keep in mind the interdependence of the OL. Pitts picked up something like 5.5 of his 8.25 sacks during the first 5 games while playing LG next to Riley. Riley not doing his job well made Pitts' job harder. Pitts played much better at LT where he had less decision making and could just take on the outside guy 1 on 1 most of the time.

YoungTexanFan
02-06-2006, 08:56 PM
While stats can be very misleading, and while Pitts is probally our best pass blocker, we played the whole season under the "3 step drop only" system. He gave those sacks up before carr could take 3 steps.

barzilla
02-06-2006, 09:49 PM
Looking at Pitts' stats for the Texans, he allowed this many sacks:

2002 - 15
2003 - 5
2004 - 6
2005 - 8

So he's gotten worse over the past couple of years. Not that I'm saying he's a horrible tackle. Just letting the evidence speak for itself.

I have a question. I know in two games he lined up against Freeney when we played the Colts. Chuckm, who else are you talking about? I never looked at it from the standpoint of trying to grade the defensive players he went up against.

Well, I would say that is the wrong way to look at that evidence. He played left tackle in 2002 and was horrible. He played left guard in 2003 and 2004 where it is logical that you would give up fewer sacks. 2005 was a mix between the two. Comparing 2002 and 2005 would be more accurate.

barzilla
02-06-2006, 09:56 PM
Hmmmm, there are some interesting questions

1) Is Todd Wade really better than what we thought?
2) is Steve McKinney really that bad?

Interestingly enough, someone mentioned how drafting Young or Bush wouldn't help. No, it wouldn't have a direct affect, but if you force the defense to have a spy for them like most college defenses ended up doing in both cases you would remove a potential pass rusher.

The Texans had two problems last year. Their blockers and schemes were decidedly below par last year, but there was also only one player on the offense that made them pause in passing situations and he was hurt for a good part of the season. Adding a weapon (whether it be a run/pass QB or run/catch RB) could help alleviate some of the protection woes.

College Texan
02-06-2006, 10:07 PM
Bush or Young will force ends to play containment and not be all out pass rushers. Imagine Freeny being told to slow down and make sure Bush Or Young dont go his way.

Runner
02-06-2006, 10:20 PM
Ok - let's look at it another way.

The combination of Pitts/Riley and Brown/Pitts gave up about 20 sacks as the LG/LT combinations in basically a three step drop passing offense. The 20 sacks this year also came with more double teaming help to the tackle. I think it is safe to assume they would have given up significantly more in 2004's predominately 7 step drop passing game and its one-on-one LT scheme.

In 2004 Pitts/Wand gave up 15 sacks. Combine that with their effective run blocking and it can make one wonder why the coaches broke up their best LG/LT combination.

The o-line is a team game - the best combination can matter more than the best individual at a given position.

BuffSoldier
02-06-2006, 10:51 PM
I did a thread similar to this one back halfway through the season to see where the weakness was coming from on our #1 problem. Here is the follow up, and/or finishing touch to the 2005's seasons dismal performance:

LT/LG Chester Pitts:
16 Games
5 Penalties/45 yards (1-FS, 1-HLD)
8.25 sacks allowed for 40 yards

LT Victor Riley (former Texan)
10 Games
4 Penalties/20 yards (3-FS)
7.00 sacks allowed for 61.25 yards

G Milford Brown:
13 Games
6 Penalties/35 yards (5-FS, 1-HLD)
5.00 sacks allowed for 40.50 yards

C Drew Hodgdon:
4 Games
2 Penalties/20 yards (2-HLD)
0.50 sacks allowed for 4 yards

C Steve McKinney:
16 Games
3 Penalties/15 yards (3 FS)
9.25 sacks allowed for 69 yards

G Zach Weigert:
12 Games
2 Penalties/15 yards (1-FS, 1-HLD)
5.50 sacks allowed for 34 yards

RT Todd Wade:
9 Games
5 Penalties/30 yards (4-FS, 1 HLD)
6.00 sacks allowed for 39 yards

Granted, that was just the "core" of our offensive line. I left several players off like Seth Wand (very limited action, and still managed to achieve 2.00 sacks), Todd Washington (0.0 sacks allowed) and unfortunatley, you cannot reference the amount of sacks credited to the runningback/fullback/and tight ends.


*Reference*
http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asp

I have always thought that Pitts was our best pass protecting OL while Wade is our best overall. Wade gives us decent pass protection and he is very good in the running game, while I think Pitts is more athletic and may be a little weaker.

My big suprise is that Hogdon only gave up .5 sacks in 4 games. I dont know if thats 4 complete games opr what, but if that is 4 complete games then that projects to 2 sacks in a 16 game season.

Corrosion
02-06-2006, 11:06 PM
I have always thought that Pitts was our best pass protecting OL while Wade is our best overall. Wade gives us decent pass protection and he is very good in the running game, while I think Pitts is more athletic and may be a little weaker.

My big suprise is that Hogdon only gave up .5 sacks in 4 games. I dont know if thats 4 complete games opr what, but if that is 4 complete games then that projects to 2 sacks in a 16 game season.


Hodgden played about half of his first and half of his last game .... All of the two middle games .... call it a total of 12 quarters of play or 3 games .

Yes he looked Very good at center and was a big improvement over McKinney . Which in turn allowed McKinney to move back to his natural position of G where his weaknesses arent as apparent ....:cool:

AustinJB
02-07-2006, 12:01 AM
He played left tackle in 2002 and was horrible. He played left guard in 2003 and 2004 where it is logical that you would give up fewer sacks. 2005 was a mix between the two. Comparing 2002 and 2005 would be more accurate.

You have your info backwards. Pitts played GUARD in 2002 and was not impressive as a rookie (to say the least.) Pitts played TACKLE in 2003 and 2004 and played well. THEN, in 2005, the coaches moved him all around and he had another "bad" season.

He has better stats at LT which is why most think that he will be a good T for us.

Along the same lines, I am of the belief that our line would be much better if everyone actually played their original positions.

LT - Pitts
LG - McKinney
C - Hodgdon
RG - Wiegert
RT - Wade

Add Bentley to Center through FA and depth at Tackle/Guard in the 2nd or 3rd rounds of the draft, and the line will be good....at least a LOT better than it has been.:twocents:

CoastalTexan
02-07-2006, 12:29 AM
Pitts played tackle in 02 & 03, because B*****i was hurt. played gaurd in 04 and half and half this season. If i remember right. Pitts is not the answer at LT. Probowl potential LG or BELOW average LT, take your pick.

Lucky
02-07-2006, 12:29 AM
Unfortunatley on the 49ers depth chart it lists Snyder as the only LT, which only looks as if he played half the season. I don't know who played the remainder/or start of the season at that position.
Jonas Jennings was the Niners big FA pickup at LT. He tore his right labrum in week 3. Anthony Clement (former Cards RT) started 6 games before being replaced by the rookie Snyder for the last 7.

AustinJB
02-07-2006, 12:47 AM
Pitts played tackle in 02 & 03, because B*****i was hurt. played gaurd in 04 and half and half this season. If i remember right. Pitts is not the answer at LT. Probowl potential LG or BELOW average LT, take your pick.

I respectfully disagree w/ your assesment. I think that Pitts is clearly a better LT than he is a LG, and I think most would agree.

I feel Pitts is an adequate LT....and if we get a franchise LT in the draft, Pitts would be a great RT IMO.:twocents:

CoastalTexan
02-07-2006, 01:13 AM
Pitts couldn't block for more than 3 seconds at a time this year at LT, if we want to improve our O-line we have to get a real LT. It just looks like he struggles so much. Pitts might do good at RT but moving him to there might be a stretch for the new coaching staff, changing from left to right and all. Our O-line is a mess, hopefully Wand, Pitts, and D-Hog can improve and be the start of something we've never had, a consistantly good O-line for our first #1 pick, our franchise QB.

TEXANS84
02-07-2006, 09:23 AM
I have always thought that Pitts was our best pass protecting OL while Wade is our best overall. Wade gives us decent pass protection and he is very good in the running game, while I think Pitts is more athletic and may be a little weaker.


Wade would have tracked for 10.56 sacks if he hadn't gotten hurt in week 9.

Kaiser Toro
02-07-2006, 10:54 AM
Yea our line is better then most people think:rolleyes:

We will have to wait and see what Kubiak and his team of assistants say about that, much like other positions in the passing game.

Vinny
02-07-2006, 12:54 PM
Pitts played tackle in 02 & 03, because B*****i was hurt. played gaurd in 04 and half and half this season. If i remember right. Pitts is not the answer at LT. Probowl potential LG or BELOW average LT, take your pick.Pitts has been a much better tackle than Guard in the NFL. All you got to do is pop in a few tapes to figure it out. All this revisionist stuff posted here in the off-season is just bonkers.

LowDownSkinny
02-08-2006, 12:27 PM
Young would help you for the first five weeks of the season before he gets injured scrambling and is out for the rest of the season. Willing to commit $20m for 5 games?

Vick was invincible once also...

All defenses will have to do until 2008 is force Vince to throw and pin their ears back. The threat of him running will not be nearly the coverage deterrent it was in college. I have no doubt he will still be incredibly difficult to solo tackle in the NFL (does anyone know how many times he was solo'd in 2005?), but all it takes is one hit by Freeney, Bulluck, Brackett, Henderson, Stroud, Starks, Haynesworth, or Simon. One hit.

There was a time that McNair was invincible too...

Vince can change the position and the way it's played... as long as he doesn't get injured. Staying healthy means learning to beat NFL defenses with his arm - that will come with time and experience.

He's not plug-n-play.

michaelm
02-08-2006, 02:10 PM
One factor that is not being discussed here is the source of the sacks allowed.
It seems to be accepted knowledge that teams were able to get to, and sack Carr with their front four for the most part last season.
If a defense can get pressure on the QB without sending additional men, there are going to be more players in coverage.
The pressure from just a front four is a contributing factor for sacks, but as a result, the defense has 7 men in coverage and that is another contributing factor.
Can anybody give me an idea of the frequency with which opposing defenses were able to get pressure on Carr with just four men rushing against our 5 Ol plus maybe a back and/or TE?
I'm sure it was pretty common.
What kind of success are you going to be able to have when you keep 6 (or 7) back to block 4 and send 4 (or 3) out against possibly 7 defenders? Especially if the four can get pressure on your QB?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That seems pretty convoluted when I re-read it, but I'm going to post it anyway. I think you should be able to get my point even though it is worded somewhat confusingly... :)

Maddict5
02-08-2006, 03:47 PM
my question is how do you give up .25 of a sack(4 guys tackle david carr together??lol)

cadahnic
02-08-2006, 04:35 PM
Thats true, but "some" of these guys cant be here next season.

That is a very true statement. McKinney and Weigert will need to restructure, even though Weigert can be kept for one more year. Walker will also need to restructure but that is on the defensive side. BTW HULK YOU DRASTICALLY OVERACHIEVED WITH THE MISSES THERE PAL....

Meloy
02-08-2006, 04:50 PM
2005 is a junk year statistically.

Poor technique coaching and poor play calling...

Did anyone play all 16 games at the same position?

The offense in 2005 was designed to "protect" Carr (whoops!!), we had more blocking from the backs and TE's. It had the opposite effect.

Kubiak and Co. will work wonders with many of the existing players. I think that we're only one stud lineman away from a servicable line.
Can we get that "one stud" @ pick 33?

Runner
02-08-2006, 06:15 PM
Can we get that "one stud" @ pick 33?

We might get that stud as a free agent center.

uhcougar08
02-09-2006, 11:11 AM
Their are a few possiblities to draft at 33 to help our protection. This may belong in the draft area but since yall want to bash my boy Pitts, I can help him here. Just watch the games of him versus Freeney, and let his play speak for it self. It is not about numbers, it is about the play of the other lineman and the coaching that goes along with it. Basically, with our new coaching staff, you will see a great improvement in blocking and offensive production. I believe this past year, the O-Line stats are a waste of time. We had a defensive mind trying to coax up a scheme for an offense.

Now for the O-Line help, or a "STUD". I got three names: Max Jean Giles(#1 G), Eric Winstrom(#5 T), or even Mercedes Lewis(#1 TE).

I think all three may help, but if we can get one of these guys at 33, they may be a immediate impact for our O-Line. Anything to help Chester Pitts.