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View Full Version : "I want 'Texans' on my chest" ~ Vince Young


Tale Gator
02-04-2006, 11:53 AM
Does Reggie Bush want to be a part of the Texans franchise this badly?
____

"I'm praying about it," he said. "I have no idea what's going to happen, but that's what I'm hoping for. I want 'Texans' on my chest. I want to be No. 10. I want to wear the blue and red. I love Houston. That would be so nice. If it doesn't happen, I'm still going to love Houston."
___________

No place like home

...

He would love to play for the Texans. He danced around the topic when he first declared himself for the NFL draft. Now he's upfront about wanting to play for his hometown team. Badly.

"I'm praying about it," he said. "I have no idea what's going to happen, but that's what I'm hoping for. I want 'Texans' on my chest. I want to be No. 10. I want to wear the blue and red. I love Houston. That would be so nice. If it doesn't happen, I'm still going to love Houston."

It's almost incomprehensible the Texans would pass up someone so good. He has more playmaking ability, more leadership skills and more of a history of winning than anyone they've had. He'd give the franchise a buzz it has never had.

full article (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/texans/3635571.html)

texplayer2
02-04-2006, 11:58 AM
He might get his wish, if he goes to the Titans and we play him twice a year. I am sure a LB or two would Autograph it there for him at no charge.

thunderkyss
02-04-2006, 12:01 PM
I think it's awesome, for someone with so much talent, to want to play for Houston.... whatever the reason.

Tale Gator
02-04-2006, 12:03 PM
I truly believe it's a win/ win with Reggie or Vince, but VY's desire to play for his hometown is really special. Kubiak and his guys will make the right decision for the Texans, but if they do go with Bush it will be tough to watch Vince play for the Titans.

At any rate this whole 06 draft business is really getting the excitement factor way up for the Texans and that is great for the organization.

Double Barrel
02-04-2006, 12:04 PM
It's a nice sentiment, but I wouldn't get your hopes up about it. Nobody really knows what the FO is thinking, but all indications are that we'll keep Carr and go another route.

It'll probably be a decision that we'll someday regret...but hey, that's life.

Maddict5
02-04-2006, 12:09 PM
fine we'll send a survey out to all the draftee's and we'll draft all the 1s that want to play for houston. ok?

Kaiser Toro
02-04-2006, 12:12 PM
Hate to get out the gas can, but this whole business of the CBA has had me thinking that the business model totally changes with the prospect of an uncapped year in 2007. Wins will bring fan's wallets no matter whose name is on the back of the jersey, but if spending on top talent has no ceiling in 2007 you must get a return on investment in all lines of business for that one player.

It comes down to Carr's contract, and therefore I think VY is not out of the picture yet. But I am still a trade down guy.

Long-Spurs-Texan
02-04-2006, 12:14 PM
Does Reggie Bush want to be a part of the Texans franchise this badly?

Uhh, no. He just wants the #1 overall status & $$$ that goes with it. Bush stated during Heisman week that he wouldn't mind playing in NY. If the Texans were picking 10th, Vince would still rather play here IMO. That is special. I wonder how many other players are "praying to God" to be in Houston? Not many.

Tale Gator
02-04-2006, 12:20 PM
fine we'll send a survey out to all the draftee's and we'll draft all the 1s that want to play for houston. ok?

That's not my point ~ it wasn't my intention to start a negative thread about who wants to play for the Texans the most. I apologize for not making that clear.

I should have just said something like ~ “Aren’t you guys impressed by how much Vince wants to be a part of the Texans?”

I hope this post clears things up. :)

travfrancis
02-04-2006, 12:23 PM
a truly frustrating situation :brickwall

wow,if we pass this kid up it will be a decision we will never forget.

Malloy
02-04-2006, 12:26 PM
Does Reggie Bush want to be a part of the Texans franchise this badly?
"I'm praying about it," he said. "I have no idea what's going to happen, but that's what I'm hoping for. I want 'Texans' on my chest. I want to be No. 10. I want to wear the blue and red. I love Houston. That would be so nice. If it doesn't happen, I'm still going to love Houston."

It's almost incomprehensible the Texans would pass up someone so good. He has more playmaking ability, more leadership skills and more of a history of winning than anyone they've had. He'd give the franchise a buzz it has never had.

full article (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/texans/3635571.html)

If he ends up playing for the Titans, I can see a good rush resulting in Texans all over him ;)

LoneStarState
02-04-2006, 12:40 PM
wow,if we pass this kid up it will be a decision we will never forget.
That's a little dramatic, don't you think? He's a good 3 years from being a starting pro qb. By then Reggie will have lead us to the playoffs at least once.

travfrancis
02-04-2006, 12:43 PM
That's a little dramatic, don't you think? He's a good 3 years from being a starting pro qb. By then Reggie will have lead us to the playoffs at least once.

That kind of thinking has quickly become my #1 pet peeve.

When I hear the reasons for drafting Bush and passing on Vince Young I usually hear the terms "quick-fix" or "viable playoff team" screw a quick-fix or being a "viable" playoff team, thats the philosophy of a loser. I'll wait a year or 2 longer (not that, that is even the case) if it means that we could be a SUPER BOWL contender.

Carr is going to be good under Kubiak's tutledge, i don't think that there is any doubt about that, he is capable of putting up the type of numbers that Plummer did this year. But the bottom-line is that you don't win super bowls with good qbs who aren't playmakers/difference makers unless you have a super badass defense. The Broncos have a pretty damn good defense and couldn't get it done with a pro-bowl (good, but not a difference maker) Jake Plummer in the same scheme as us. There is no reason to think the Texans' defense will be special, on par with Denver's or better, any time in the future (it's not like we just hired some known badass defensive coordinator).

So go for the gold, draft Vince Young. Lets shoot for the super bowl and doing something special, not just to make the playoffs and be one and done every year

SheTexan
02-04-2006, 12:58 PM
And you GUYS think women are sentimental!! J/K!!:)

I believe it is a very admirable trait that Vince wants to play for his home team, who wouldn't?? Think he might be interested in becoming a RB??:rolleyes: Unfortunatly, wishes don't always come true, and prayers are not always answered the way we want them. We just have to believe that the POWERS THAT BE, whether that is GOD above, or the Texans FO, will send the right man to HOUSTON come April.

tulexan
02-04-2006, 12:59 PM
Maybe we should draft the entire U of H team. I'm sure they would all love to play for the Texans.

Fiddy
02-04-2006, 01:09 PM
That's a little dramatic, don't you think? He's a good 3 years from being a starting pro qb. By then Reggie will have lead us to the playoffs at least once. And to add to travfrancis' great post, look at the Edge situation. He has been in the league 7 years and will be 27 at the start of next season and now teams are shying away from him because backs dont have that long of shelf-life. Bush already has the durability question and if he never answers it, are we renting him for 7 years??? And to get more theoritical, lets say we make improvement the next 2 years but are still sub-.500, are we going to have Bush for a 5 year period when this team can finally make some noise in the playoff picture and then let him go like Edge???

Tale Gator
02-04-2006, 01:10 PM
And you GUYS think women are sentimental!! J/K!!:)

There are no limits for men when it comes to football loyalty. :)

We just have to believe that the POWERS THAT BE, whether that is GOD above, or the Texans FO, will send the right man to HOUSTON come April.

Bush, Young, or trade down ~ Kubiak & company will make the right choice.

Malloy
02-04-2006, 01:16 PM
And you GUYS think women are sentimental!! J/K!!:)

I believe it is a very admirable trait that Vince wants to play for his home team, who wouldn't?? Think he might be interested in becoming a RB??:rolleyes: Unfortunatly, wishes don't always come true, and prayers are not always answered the way we want them. We just have to believe that the POWERS THAT BE, whether that is GOD above, or the Texans FO, will send the right man to HOUSTON come April.

Can God play RB? :)

bigTEXan8
02-04-2006, 01:28 PM
The only reason VY wants to play in Houston is because with that #1 pick comes a minimum $45million contract. Same reason Leinart and Bush want to be #1. Is Houston his hometown, yeah, but that doesn't mean he's more interested in the $$ than he is the "playin' for the hometown feeling". The question you got to ask yourself is this:

Would VY say no to the NFL if the Texans do not draft him?

NO!!!!

It's about the $$$, and has been for a while.

bayshorebevo
02-04-2006, 01:30 PM
how can you be so certain we will make the right choice? what's up with that?

bigTEXan8
02-04-2006, 01:37 PM
how can you be so certain we will make the right choice? what's up with that?

You can't be certain. The first round of a draft is closely related to a krap shoot. Not everyone pans out. The only way to answer your question is to look 2-3 years from now. Maybe Bush will be better than Young, or visa versa.

Caesar
02-04-2006, 01:44 PM
how can you be so certain we will make the right choice?
Because the Texans have drafted so well in the past.:rolleyes:

Double Barrel
02-04-2006, 02:19 PM
Uhh, no. He just wants the #1 overall status & $$$ that goes with it. Bush stated during Heisman week that he wouldn't mind playing in NY. If the Texans were picking 10th, Vince would still rather play here IMO. That is special. I wonder how many other players are "praying to God" to be in Houston? Not many.

This is an interesting point. Would Young be so emotional about playing for the Texans if we had the 8th pick in the draft? idonno:

I can't say either way, but I do have to admit that this post made me stop and think about it.

AustinJB
02-04-2006, 02:26 PM
This is an interesting point. Would Young be so emotional about playing for the Texans if we had the 8th pick in the draft? idonno:

I can't say either way, but I do have to admit that this post made me stop and think about it.

I honestly think that he'd STILL want to play here (although he may not have entered the draft.) Vince loves Houston and always made it a point to not only thank Austin for their support but also Houston (i.e. his Rose Bowl speech where he said that he was proud to represent H-Town.)

I still think that a lot of the reason VY decided to make himself eligible for the draft is not only b/c he would go in the top three but also b/c of WHO has the top three picks (H-Town, NO, TN.) These three are close to his home and he is a person that wants to stay close to home b/c of his family.

DFAN
02-04-2006, 03:07 PM
fine we'll send a survey out to all the draftee's and we'll draft all the 1s that want to play for houston. ok?


Wont be many. Sorry but you left your self open for that one.

LoneStarState
02-04-2006, 03:12 PM
So go for the gold, draft Vince Young. Lets shoot for the super bowl and doing something special, not just to make the playoffs and be one and done every year
Sorry, but drafting Vince Young doesn't make the Texans anymore likely to go to a Super Bowl than drafting Reggie Bush. Last time I checked, it takes 53 players to go to the Super Bowl.

bigTEXan8
02-04-2006, 03:15 PM
Sorry, but drafting Vince Young doesn't make the Texans anymore likely to go to a Super Bowl than drafting Reggie Bush. Last time I checked, it takes 53 players to go to the Super Bowl.

Thank you!! Solid post yo.

travfrancis
02-04-2006, 03:20 PM
Sorry, but drafting Vince Young doesn't make the Texans anymore likely to go to a Super Bowl than drafting Reggie Bush. Last time I checked, it takes 53 players to go to the Super Bowl.

i guess you didn't read my post, or atleast didn't agree with it :confused:

Fiddy
02-04-2006, 03:46 PM
This is an interesting point. Would Young be so emotional about playing for the Texans if we had the 8th pick in the draft? idonno:

I can't say either way, but I do have to admit that this post made me stop and think about it. I bet you he would be. Whenever he talked about the Heisman, he always said he was sorry he let down Austin and Houston by not winning the Heisman. I'll try to find the quote.

And I dont think money is the issue for the fact that VY is gonna put his signature on a shoe deal with Nike, Adidas, etc. which will give him about 100 million. 5 million doesnt make much of a difference when you have a deal for 100 million.

Kaiser Toro
02-04-2006, 03:56 PM
And I dont think money is the issue for the fact that VY is gonna put his signature on a shoe deal with Nike, Adidas, etc. which will give him about 100 million. 5 million doesnt make much of a difference when you have a deal for 100 million.

Can you provide a link on this? Many have been saying this and in my opinion there is no firggin way a football player would ever get that kind of jack from one sponsor. :confused:

HoustonFrog
02-04-2006, 04:07 PM
That kind of thinking has quickly become my #1 pet peeve.

When I hear the reasons for drafting Bush and passing on Vince Young I usually hear the terms "quick-fix" or "viable playoff team" screw a quick-fix or being a "viable" playoff team, thats the philosophy of a loser.

Mine too. I am for drafting Bush or trading down for D help but I, in no way, think it is obvious that VY will take 3 years. Everyone thinks this is a given. If that was the case people like Roethlisberger would not have stepped in Day 1.Nor would Brady his second year. And don't try to tell me they are different because no one thought they were the best QBs out there, especially with Brady going in the 6th round. Some guys have it and some guys don't. You can only guess on who will make it happen. Assuming that every guy takes 3-4 years is a farce considering that the span of most NFL careers is 3.

Grid
02-04-2006, 04:09 PM
I really wanna play for the Texans too.

texansfan88
02-04-2006, 04:10 PM
I have a 6 year old neighbor down the street that wants to play for Houston... maybe the chronicle can write an article about him as well...

who cares if he wants to play here?

HoustonFrog
02-04-2006, 04:13 PM
I have a 6 year old neighbor down the street that wants to play for Houston... maybe the chronicle can write an article about him as well...

who cares if he wants to play here?

I do. I want a guy who is fired up about his team and who wants to be here no matter the past we have had. You could have an Eli Manning a-hole who doesn't want to play for your team. VY isn't my first choice but I do want the passion of a guy who wants to take us somewhere. People are too bitter and jaded here. It is a joke.

bigTEXan8
02-04-2006, 04:18 PM
Mine too. I am for drafting Bush or trading down for D help but I, in no way, think it is obvious that VY will take 3 years. Everyone things this is a given. If that was the case people like Roethlisberger would not have stepped in Day 1.Nor would Brady his second year. And don't try to tell me they are different because no one thought they were the best QBs out there, especially with Brady going in the 6th round. Some guys have it and some guys don't. You can only guess on who will make it happen. Assuming that every guy takes 3-4 years is a farce considering that the span of most NFL careers is 3.

They are different because the rest of the team didn't suck. Pitt had a solid D, great coach, and a solid running game to keep Ben "Drink like a champion Today" Roethlisberger in games and shut down the other opponents. The Patriots, at minimum, would have made it to the playoffs if not the SB last year because of a great coach and great team play.

Fiddy
02-04-2006, 04:20 PM
Can you provide a link on this? Many have been saying this and in my opinion there is no firggin way a football player would ever get that kind of jack from one sponsor. :confused: That's Lebron James type shoe deal money and people have said he is gonna be the LBJ of the NFL. I also read or heard on the radio that he was close to signing a shoe deal for a lot but his agent decided to hold off and let other companies "bid" for him...

HoustonTexans
02-04-2006, 04:21 PM
in my opinion, he shouldnt have declared if he wanted to come here haha... maybe we woulda sucked again and had another high draft pick and then wed have reggie AND vince thanks a lot vince

sangien
02-04-2006, 04:23 PM
You huys are so negative to anyone that has a diffent opinion than you! This young guy has a love for his city and state that should not be taken lightly. If you ever had that kind of passion maybe you could relate to him. I think we should address line but I admire his charecter and I share his love for my city and state after 20 years in the military and 3 conflicts I can tell you they are worth fighting for. So calm down and don't be so jaded!

Fiddy
02-04-2006, 04:27 PM
I really wanna play for the Texans too. Are you one of the most dominat college players ever and have a national championship where you led your team to victory with your percise passing and super speed legs???

Texans_Chick
02-04-2006, 04:39 PM
Does Reggie Bush want to be a part of the Texans franchise this badly?
____

"I'm praying about it," he said. "I have no idea what's going to happen, but that's what I'm hoping for. I want 'Texans' on my chest. I want to be No. 10. I want to wear the blue and red. I love Houston. That would be so nice. If it doesn't happen, I'm still going to love Houston."
___________

No place like home

...

He would love to play for the Texans. He danced around the topic when he first declared himself for the NFL draft. Now he's upfront about wanting to play for his hometown team. Badly.

"I'm praying about it," he said. "I have no idea what's going to happen, but that's what I'm hoping for. I want 'Texans' on my chest. I want to be No. 10. I want to wear the blue and red. I love Houston. That would be so nice. If it doesn't happen, I'm still going to love Houston."

It's almost incomprehensible the Texans would pass up someone so good. He has more playmaking ability, more leadership skills and more of a history of winning than anyone they've had. He'd give the franchise a buzz it has never had.

full article (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/texans/3635571.html)


Just to give equal time:

Link: "Joining Texans holds appeal to Bush" (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3584480.html)

"I wouldn't have a problem playing for Houston if they were to pick me," Bush said at a news conference in Los Angeles. "This is a dream come true. I'm excited about having an opportunity to prove myself at the next level, and if that was with Houston, it would make everything even better."


:texflag:

Fighting Blue Hen
02-04-2006, 04:53 PM
Does Reggie Bush want to be a part of the Texans franchise this badly?

Bush said yesterday during a ESPN radio interview at the Super Bowl that he would like to play for Mike Martz. He thinks he can be utilized like Marshall Faulk has been. The Lions fans in the background were cheering because Martz had supposedly been hired by the Lions but I saw later that hiring wasn't official.

Bush just wants to be drafted #1. It's all about that status and the money it is going to bring.

Mr. White
02-04-2006, 05:07 PM
And stop Dancing everytime you get on TV Vince, I thought I was watching a Dance Contest.
He is very immature by NFL standards.

Yeah. I've NEVER seen an NFL player dance around. Their standards are too high for that.

travfrancis
02-04-2006, 05:08 PM
And stop Dancing everytime you get on TV Vince, I thought I was watching a Dance Contest.
He is very immature by NFL standards.

hahaha, that is laughable.

Mr. White
02-04-2006, 05:10 PM
Just to give equal time:

Link: "Joining Texans holds appeal to Bush" (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3584480.html)

"I wouldn't have a problem playing for Houston if they were to pick me," Bush said at a news conference in Los Angeles. "This is a dream come true. I'm excited about having an opportunity to prove myself at the next level, and if that was with Houston, it would make everything even better."
:

I wouldn't go getting too flattered. The interview I heard on the Dan Patrick show a few weeks ago made it sound like it was just more important for him to go #1.

HoustonFrog
02-04-2006, 05:11 PM
Yeah. I've NEVER seen an NFL player dance around. Their standards are too high for that.

I don't get the bitterness myself. If you want to take Bush so be it. I do too but stop being such a jerk towards a guy who is 22 and enjoying his time in the sun. Bush has done it. Leinart is doing it. It isn't his fault that he is wanted by teams. He played to the best of his ability and now has a chance to make something happen. So much hate in here for a person who is doing nothing to them. Hype your pick but don't hate so much on people who are good people. It is classless. All three top guys have great things to offer and all are pimping themselves. Leinart was on Rome is Burning and his radio show with his agent..whoppdedoo.

This is so immature..from yesterdays Chronicle:

"Houston is fortunate to have three major-league sports teams plus other outstanding athletes. Despite their tremendous abilities and their substantial salaries, rarely do they give back to the community in proportion to their wealth--either in funds or time

Vince Young lost the Heisman, but one day last week he won the hearts of many patients at the Texas Children's Hospital. Without an obvious agent, with absolutely no fee, he talked to the children, signed autographs, took pictures and generally endeared himself forever.

The athletes of my generation were our idols and generally good role models. Houston's superstars need to take lessons form a superstar of tomorrow."

--Milton Nirken, M.D.

Fiddy
02-04-2006, 05:17 PM
TAnd stop Dancing everytime you get on TV Vince, I thought I was watching a Dance Contest.
He is very immature by NFL standards. Yeah, being in the gym by 7:30 and working out until he has to do inteviews is very immature. The guy wants to have fun, a little dancing for him is just fun. It's a way to goof off, a way to enjoy life. Everyone has a need to be professional 24/7, you need to be professional when dealing with your job and he does that, he does dancing during the pregame to keep his guys lose, after he wins a national championship and after a reporter asks him if he wants to do a quick dance. Bash him for other things if you want, but a couple of dance moves just to have fun??? You're reaching for things now...

Peyton should try to lighten up, maybe it will stop him from choking every year...

Mr. White
02-04-2006, 05:19 PM
Yeah. I've NEVER seen an NFL player dance around. Their standards are too high for that.

:sarcasm: (Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea.)

travfrancis
02-04-2006, 05:21 PM
You're reaching for things now...

http://www.edow.org/parish/stewardship/reaching.jpg

Tale Gator
02-04-2006, 05:23 PM
FWIW - Vince just won the college football allstar challenge -- make no mistake Vince has a freaking gun of an arm. :shocked

HoustonFrog
02-04-2006, 05:24 PM
:sarcasm: (Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea.)

Sorry, I got the sarcasm, I was really responding to the one you responded to....just backing you up.

Marcus
02-04-2006, 05:29 PM
Are you one of the most dominat college players ever and have a national championship where you led your team to victory with your percise passing and super speed legs???

hehe . . .:rolleyes:

And you actually wonder why some are jaded and bitter. If some of you tsips would take the big S off your hero/God' s chest, and refer to him as good player who helped a team full of high school blue chippers, and loaded full of 1st round draft picks, win a national championship. Instead, we get this "put the whole team on his back, and do it all on his own" crap day in and day out.

Some of us are just plain sick of it.

Kaiser Toro
02-04-2006, 05:34 PM
That's Lebron James type shoe deal money and people have said he is gonna be the LBJ of the NFL. I also read or heard on the radio that he was close to signing a shoe deal for a lot but his agent decided to hold off and let other companies "bid" for him...

No way, no day. Where is the return on investment? There are no incremental sales of football gear, like basketball shoes and apparel. Moreover, the expected career of an NFL player is 4 years. It makes no sense.

Here is an article speaking to it:
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/business/1136519708323051.xml&coll=7

Fiddy
02-04-2006, 05:36 PM
No way, no day. Where is the return on investment? There are no incremental sales of football gear, like basketball shoes and apparel. Moreover, the expected career of an NFL player is 4 years. It makes no sense.

Here is an article speaking to it:
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/business/1136519708323051.xml&coll=7 Well, I guess i heard wrong. Thanks for the correction...

He'll get more than Manning, though...

HoustonFrog
02-04-2006, 05:37 PM
hehe . . .:rolleyes:

And you actually wonder why some are jaded and bitter. If some of you tsips would take the big S off your hero/God' s chest, and refer to him as good player who helped a team full of high school blue chippers, and loaded full of 1st round draft picks, win a national championship. Instead, we get this "put the whole team on his back, and do it all on his own" crap day in and day out.

Some of us are just plain sick of it.

As I said up above, I'm not a tsip and not high on taking him but don't you think this is oversimplifying it. USC had the top recruiting class for the last three years straight so why isn't everyone dogging Leianrt and Bush about being surrounded by studs?All three took their team where they needed to go and are leaders and winners. I can see the frustration but your sentiments make no sense. I just can't see why people don't hype their favorite and leave the others alone. I think the hating has gotten more over the top than the love shown.

Dr. Toro
02-04-2006, 05:40 PM
C'mon Marcus, it ain't about "tsips"... but I guess I know where you stand on them. He did put that team on his back in the 4th quarter, down 12 with 6 minutes left and no momentum. If it were Elway or Favre you woulda said he put the team on his back.

What top team in the country isn't loaded with blue chippers, what top five team doesn't have first rounders?

It's not about Young being a god, it's about Young being the dominant player in a national championship game on a field with two Heisman winners, and probly 10 first rounders. It's about Pete Carroll knowing the game is over if Young gets the ball in his hands. It's about gameplanning for a month against a guy and him still having the best game of his life. It's about a lot of stuff that shows he's more than just a "good player".

Dr. Toro
02-04-2006, 05:50 PM
Just speculating, but Young will get a fat endorsement contract (by football standards), he's big like a basketball player, has charisma, and bidding will be high. Under Armour just went public and might want a star endorser, Reebok just merged with Adidas and is targeting Nike, and Nike probably is willing to pay a premium to keep him away from a rival. I've read some reports saying Nike has made record money off Texas gear after the NC, they know what he's worth.

Football guys don't get a ton of money in endorsements, but Young's got some crossover appeal. Bo Jackson sold some non-football shoes and was very marketable, Ken Griffey sold a lot of shoes back in his prime, although Vick hasn't done so well (I've seen his shoes on clearance), Deion sold a ton of cross trainers, Jeter even has shoes that sell. I wouldn't be shocked to see a figure in the 30 million+ range.

Hardcore Texan
02-04-2006, 05:53 PM
All of this is beginning to sound vaguely familiar.

Marcus
02-04-2006, 05:57 PM
As I said up above, I'm not a tsip and not high on taking him but don't you think this is oversimplifying it. USC had the top recruiting class for the last three years straight so why isn't everyone dogging Leianrt and Bush about being surrounded by studs?All three took their team where they needed to go and are leaders and winners. I can see the frustration but your sentiments make no sense. I just can't see why people don't hype their favorite and leave the others alone. I think the hating has gotten more over the top than the love shown.

You know exactly what I'm talking about with this man-crush that most on this MB have on VY. Don't pretend it doesn't exist with your hypocrisy pointing. So far, I haven't read a single post threatening to not be a fan anymore if we don't take Bush or trade down. You're ignorant yourself if you think this wouldn't provoke a backlash.

And now, you're mad at some of us for being jaded and bitter? Who is to blame for that?

HoustonFrog
02-04-2006, 06:05 PM
You know exactly what I'm talking about with this man-crush that most on this MB have on VY. Don't pretend it doesn't exist with your hypocrisy pointing. So far, I haven't read a single post threatening to not be a fan anymore if we don't take Bush or trade down. You're ignorant yourself if you think this wouldn't provoke a backlash.

And now, you're mad at some of us for being jaded and bitter? Who is to blame for that?

What am I pointing out that is so wrong? I do see a ton of VY hype and yeah I can see how it is annoying but that is no reason to jump me..who wants to take Bush...and to jump VY personally when you try and hate on the guy with untrue statements about his ability. All of those guys on both those teams are surrounded by top athletes and recruits. I wouldn't be throwing around the word ignorant because I refuse to get so riled up about sports debates on the Texans board. Put your sock back on and take your toe off the trigger. I just don't think it is going to end soon for either guy and if I remember correctly the Bush love was going from mid season on!Have a cold one:)

TexanSam
02-04-2006, 06:19 PM
I don't care if he wants to play here. What I care about is the Texans winning. Just because he says he wants to play here doesn't mean that the Texans will choose that route. I believe the Texans will do what they think is best for the organization, whether or not that involves Young is yet to be seen. But just because he says he wants to play for us isn't a logical reason to pick him with the #1 pick.

thunderkyss
02-04-2006, 06:54 PM
I have a 6 year old neighbor down the street that wants to play for Houston... maybe the chronicle can write an article about him as well...

who cares if he wants to play here?

If that six year old can throw for 3000 yards and run for 1000 yards in the same season in the NCAA DivI football league, send the young'n to reliant stadium imediately.... before Jerry Jones finds out about him.

chuckm
02-04-2006, 07:00 PM
At the end of April hundreds of players will be drafted by all 32 teams. Each and every one of those players really, really, really, really wants to wear "Texans" on their chest if they could be the first pick in the draft.

thunderkyss
02-04-2006, 07:39 PM
Bush said yesterday during a ESPN radio interview at the Super Bowl that he would like to play for Mike Martz. He thinks he can be utilized like Marshall Faulk has been. The Lions fans in the background were cheering because Martz had supposedly been hired by the Lions but I saw later that hiring wasn't official.

Bush just wants to be drafted #1. It's all about that status and the money it is going to bring.


This makes the most sense, out of anything that I've heard regarding drafting Reggie Bush. BPA....... yeah, you can draft that way, and sometimes it works. Sometimes, you get someone that doesn't fit your system, and just doesn't work, regardless of the talent you've got around him.

For instance...... you want to be a running football team. You draft steady dependable ball carriers...... nothing flashy, just run it up the middle, and get me three yards...... you put together a Runblocking Offensive line, then you get a QB, who can get out of trouble with his legs.... Well, if everything is coming along as planned, except one piece.... what do you do??

There are systems, that are made that would cater to different players. What MikeMartz did in StLouis........ the players(WRs) they have in Detroit..... if they would fix their offensive line, and give Harrington a help in the form of Reggie Bush........... they would be in the SuperBowl in no time.... Mike Martz, don't need no defense.............. greatest show on turf. I said a little while ago, that I don't think even MikeMartz could do it again. But if he can get Reggie in Detroit, he isn't very far away.

Even a guy like Vermiel.... who is Kookie enough, and good enough to take a talent like Bush, and really utilize him in an offense.... Then that would be a good fit.

The way our team is built, the way McNair said we were going to play football, the coaches we've brought to Houston........ Reggie Bush is sooooo much a square peg it isn't funny. This isn't to say Reggie isn't talented, that he's going to be a bust, or that he won't lead a team to the Big Dance, and bring home the trophy, he may do all that, and sooooo many people are going to be saying........."see, we should've drafted Reggie"....

Philadelphia would've been a totally different team had they drafted Ricky Williams........ as would the Colts...... If Jake Delhomme would've started for N.O., there is no reason to believe he would've got them to the SuperBowl. If Tom Brady were drafted in the second round by SanFrancisco, there is no reason for us to believe he would have 3 SB rings right now. If Kurt Warner would have been picked up by Baltimore, why should we think they would have won a SB.

I'm not hating on Reggie....... and the Texans would not have won more than 2 games this season if 26 of the other 31 starting QBs in this league would've subed for Carr behind this offensive line. Before the RoseBowl, with the possible exception of JayCutler, there wasn't a QB in the Draft, that had that extra something that will help this team win football games.

If we are going to win SuperBowls, I would prefer we do it the right way. trade down, and let's build a SB team, on both sides of the ball. But if we are going to use this draft pick, let's address a need, and provide an answer for the biggest question on our team.

Can David do it, or not......... if yes.....great we've got a problem... what are we going to do with a Vince Young who has seen no playing time in two years. If he can't do it, and it will be obvious in the first 8 weeks, we start building for our future...... and you are out of your mind, if you don't think the Houston Texans can win some games with Vince Young as QB, if Kubiak does his Job with the O-line, and our running game.

But if we don't get Vince Young, and we are looking for a QB two years from now, I will be soooooooo frik'n mad, ooohhhh soo mad... I will be a Texans fan, but I wll be the kind you hate.... the kind that second guesses every decision. The kind that will not allow you to celebrate a 3 game win streak. The kind that will magnify every sack, every fumble, every loss. I will be in the stands Booing every bad play, and nothing short of a conference Championship will silence me.

Tough love Baby.......... that's all I'd have left for the Houston Texans.

Mr. White
02-04-2006, 07:46 PM
You know exactly what I'm talking about with this man-crush that most on this MB have on VY.

This man-crush card on VY is getting real old.

By that same token, it can be said that David Carr supporters have a man-crush on him. He was the one who did the GQ spread....

And the Reggie Bush supporters must have man-crushes on him, right? Man-crush Street goes both ways.

Tale Gator
02-04-2006, 07:48 PM
...But just because he says he wants to play for us isn't a logical reason to pick him with the #1 pick.


At the end of April hundreds of players will be drafted by all 32 teams. Each and every one of those players really, really, really, really wants to wear "Texans" on their chest if they could be the first pick in the draft.

You're both absolutely right ~ Kubiak & Co. will make the right choice on draft day and of course many players would love to be the number one and play for the Texans.

Let me ask you this though ~ doesn't Vince's hometown roots and his heartfelt desire to play for the Texans impress you at least a little?

IMHO - Vince's desire to play in Houston is way beyond the money - after growing up in H-town myself, the pride Vince is showing his hometown means a lot to me. It's so rare these days to hear anyone gush about Houston -- kind of cool don't you think?

chuckm
02-04-2006, 08:08 PM
Let me ask you this though ~ doesn't Vince's hometown roots and his heartfelt desire to play for the Texans impress you at least a little?

IMHO - Vince's desire to play in Houston is way beyond the money - after growing up in H-town myself, the pride Vince is showing his hometown means a lot to me. It's so rare these days to hear anyone gush about Houston -- kind of cool don't you think?

if I thought it was the right thing for the Texans, then I'd be for the idea .... I don't think it's the right thing for the Texans, so I'm not .....


If the Texans had the 5th pick, would Vince tell the first four teams not to draft him so he could come home to Houston? I think not ...

Tale Gator
02-04-2006, 08:27 PM
If the Texans had the 5th pick, would Vince tell the first four teams not to draft him so he could come home to Houston? I think not ...

It's important to remember that San Diego really wanted Eli Manning and he had other ideas.

Have you ever checked out San Diego? Beautiful city, weather, women...

Who wouldn't want to play there? :shocked

chuckm
02-04-2006, 08:31 PM
It's important to remember that San Diego really wanted Eli Manning and he had other ideas.

Have you ever checked out San Diego? Beautiful city, weather, women...

Who wouldn't want to play there? :shocked


Manning's reasons had nothing to do with the city but with the management of the Chargers .... don't get me wrong, I admire the kid for wanting to play at home, but I don't think he'd want it nearly as much if the Texans were picking 4th, 5th, 6th, ....

travfrancis
02-04-2006, 08:48 PM
Now some Vince Young stuff is Off liments, we cant come down on Vince, but Carr is fine bash all we want, call him a loser, soft, baby, lost all his wheels or what ever bullcrap you guys make up and I cant say that him dancing every time he is on TV is stupid, I understand now!

you won't see me saying any of that stuff, i don't have anyhting against carr, i just think he doesn't have "IT" and vince is a once in a lifetime opportunity that can't be passed up.

really funny how you consider having fun and being loose as being immature.

its also really interesting as thing goes on, how the intial thought was that the guys on the vy side of the camp were the ones that were riding a high, and were thought to be weighing down the board with dumbness. but as the time goes by it seems to be almost the exact opposite. some of the most respected posters on this board are in the VY camp, while we have some reggie bush fan going around under the username "HOOK'EM" pimping bush in every thread he posts in and ignorantly dogging vincent young. then we have Hulk75 here, so desperate to find a flaw in vince young that he reaches with the immature take that makes 0 sense. don't even get me started on nunusguy. all i'm saying is i'm starting to notice a trend between those that are in the VY-camp and those in the Bush-camp, now of course there are exceptions.

kastofsna
02-04-2006, 08:49 PM
"i want (insert name of team with first pick of the draft) on my chest"

TreWardTxn
02-04-2006, 09:01 PM
hehe . . .:rolleyes:

And you actually wonder why some are jaded and bitter. If some of you tsips would take the big S off your hero/God' s chest, and refer to him as good player who helped a team full of high school blue chippers, and loaded full of 1st round draft picks, win a national championship. Instead, we get this "put the whole team on his back, and do it all on his own" crap day in and day out.

Some of us are just plain sick of it.

You can be sick all you want but the fact of the matter is with the help of the defense, dude did just that. If having the will to win doesn't mean anything then why didn't USC win; they have blue chippers and future college hall of famers up and down their lineup, I guess you want to tell me now that USC wasn't that good of a team. Why didn't Chris Simms win a National Championship at Texas? He had more talent and experience at every position when he QB'd Texas (Benson, Scaife, Roy, BJ, Sloan, Davis and Williams on the line, need I go on?) and he couldn't even bring the Big 12 Championship home. Don't act like it wasn't an amazing perfomance because it was, and if you want to act like it isn't, then its pure bias on your part...

HoustonFrog
02-04-2006, 09:04 PM
you won't see me saying any of that stuff, i don't have anyhting against carr, i just think he doesn't have "IT" and vince is a once in a lifetime opportunity that can't be passed up.

really funny how you consider having fun and being loose as being immature.

its also really interesting as thing goes on, how the intial thought was that the guys on the vy side of the camp were the ones that were riding a high, and were thought to be weighing down the board with dumbness. but as the time goes by it seems to be almost the exact opposite. some of the most respected posters on this board are in the VY camp, while we have some reggie bush fan going around under the username "HOOK'EM" pimping bush in every thread he posts in and ignorantly dogging vincent young. then we have Hulk75 here, so desperate to find a flaw in vince young that he reaches with the immature take that makes 0 sense. don't even get me started on nunusguy. all i'm saying is i'm starting to notice a trend between those that are in the VY-camp and those in the Bush-camp, now of course there are exceptions.

Couldn't agree with you more. First of all people have a right to their opinion but I find it HILARIOUS that people are calling VY immature without knowing a thing about him and because he dances and all yet people are called morons and name called..even told to leave the board..lol...if we don't just act like a drone, want Bush and Carr and just love the status quo and kiss tail. That reeks of hypocrisy. If you want to say don't take VY because we don't need him and you think Bush is a better fit...like me...then more power to you..just don't MAKE UP reasons not to like a guy that sound like third grade. ALL three of the top guys are class and quality guys and they all bring their own talents. I'll keep repeating it until I'm blue in the face but I'm not going to be a 35 year old guy who acts like a grade school kid because I want to draft someone else. I can want Bush and read stuff like below and still respect a man even though IMHO we don't need him. I don't even like Carr but am willing to give him a shot with a stud RB and a new coach. Doesn't mean I'm going to demean VY for putting himself in the position he is in by being a winner.

"Houston is fortunate to have three major-league sports teams plus other outstanding athletes. Despite their tremendous abilities and their substantial salaries, rarely do they give back to the community in proportion to their wealth--either in funds or time

Vince Young lost the Heisman, but one day last week he won the hearts of many patients at the Texas Children's Hospital. Without an obvious agent, with absolutely no fee, he talked to the children, signed autographs, took pictures and generally endeared himself forever.

The athletes of my generation were our idols and generally good role models. Houston's superstars need to take lessons form a superstar of tomorrow."

--Milton Nirken, M.D.

Carr Bombed
02-04-2006, 09:20 PM
different day same thread.

God I can't wait for the Draft to get here and pass.

Nighthawk
02-04-2006, 09:21 PM
There are no limits for men when it comes to football loyalty. :)



Bush, Young, or trade down ~ Kubiak & company will make the right choice.

What in the world makes you think that?

HJam72
02-04-2006, 09:42 PM
I still defend Carr, but, at this point, I think Vince Young is the best choice. You have to remember that competing with Dallas for all those Texas fans is a big part of it all. They BETTER get serious about those ugly positions though. If they take Young (or Bush), that needs to then be dealt with UNTIL IT'S COMPLETELY SOLVED.

Tulip
02-04-2006, 09:52 PM
I love his passion. For Houston. For winning.

Big B Texan Fan
02-04-2006, 09:58 PM
different day same thread.

God I can't wait for the Draft to get here and pass.
It'll be worse after for at least a month

Big B Texan Fan
02-04-2006, 10:06 PM
Vince's desire to play in Houston is way beyond the money - after growing up in H-town myself, the pride Vince is showing his hometown means a lot to me. It's so rare these days to hear anyone gush about Houston -- kind of cool don't you think?
Born and raised here myself and I love what I hear coming from him. I have a soft spot for Houston.

But make no mistake, IMHO he's the BPA and our QB play has been suspect sooooo it makes perfect sense to me to draft him.

LoneStarState
02-04-2006, 10:43 PM
It'll be worse after for at least a month
If Richard Justice and John McClain would drop their all out PR assault on this topic this would all be settling down. Everytime things settle down a bit - one of those mental giants feels the need to float a VY story. It's shameful. VY owes them money for the promotion job they are doing for him.

It doesn't matter how much the media or any of us want the Texans to pick a particular player. Interesting trade scenarious and suggestions from Madden 2006 capologists, or Fantasy League GMs won't make the front office take notice. Threats of holding your breath til you turn blue won't work either.

LoneStarState
02-04-2006, 10:45 PM
our QB play has been suspect sooooo it makes perfect sense to me to draft him.
So it's all Carr's fault? I'm not a Carr defender, but geeez - you have to admit the team never has given him the tools or coaching to succeed.

Txn_in_Oki
02-04-2006, 11:56 PM
I can see where the guy is coming from. When I was a kid I and imagined playing in the big game it was always for the Astros or the Rockets or the Oi... that other team. Point being, if you had the opportunity to be drafted by your hometown wouldn't you just hope they took you? I know I would.

Dream come true.

Big B Texan Fan
02-05-2006, 12:12 AM
So it's all Carr's fault? I'm not a Carr defender, but geeez - you have to admit the team never has given him the tools or coaching to succeed.
Well they never gave him Pace, Wahl, Rivera, Flozell Adams and what not but we did improve on the first team a well as give him some weaponary in season 2 and 3. Why this year we regress back to where we were in year 1 or worse. It's because of QB play. How do you explain 68 sax four years after a record setting 76 sax season. No, it's not all of his fault but c'mon, the majority of the blame for not doing better is his fault. Now I didn't say the team siucking was his fault, just that they could've done better if he'd had made better decisions throughout the season. Maybe finished 7-9 again, which in my eyes would've been an underachievement any ways.

bigcarlos
02-05-2006, 12:15 AM
He might get his wish, if he goes to the Titans and we play him twice a year. I am sure a LB or two would Autograph it there for him at no charge.
The LB's we have now wouldnt be able to catch him:superman:

dirty steve
02-05-2006, 12:37 AM
Well they never gave him Pace, Wahl, Rivera, Flozell Adams and what not but we did improve on the first team a well as give him some weaponary in season 2 and 3. Why this year we regress back to where we were in year 1 or worse. It's because of QB play. How do you explain 68 sax four years after a record setting 76 sax season. No, it's not all of his fault but c'mon, the majority of the blame for not doing better is his fault. Now I didn't say the team siucking was his fault, just that they could've done better if he'd had made better decisions throughout the season. Maybe finished 7-9 again, which in my eyes would've been an underachievement any ways.

what weapons are you talking about?

other factors going into the texans offensive demise this year:

-the OC switch after week two.
-domanick davis getting hurt AGAIN.
-installing victor riley at LT.
-little to no quality depth at C/G/T.
-no viable number two WR option for carr.
-almost zero production from the TE position.

while carr is not without fault, i think the above decisons have hurt the team on the offensive side of the ball more than D. Carr did.

AustinJB
02-05-2006, 12:42 AM
other factors going into the texans offensive demise this year:

-the OC switch after week two.
-domanick davis getting hurt AGAIN.
-installing victor riley at LT.
-little to no quality depth at C/G/T.
-no viable number two WR option for carr.
-almost zero production from the TE position.

while carr is not without fault, i think the above decisons have hurt the team on the offensive side of the ball more than D. Carr did.

I can agree w/ that. I think the better question is, if all that you mentioned were corrected, would Carr be able to lead a top-notch offense? Would he be great or average?

I think he'll always be average, but that's JMO.

texplayer2
02-05-2006, 12:58 AM
Mine too. I am for drafting Bush or trading down for D help but I, in no way, think it is obvious that VY will take 3 years. Everyone thinks this is a given. If that was the case people like Roethlisberger would not have stepped in Day 1.Nor would Brady his second year. And don't try to tell me they are different because no one thought they were the best QBs out there, especially with Brady going in the 6th round. Some guys have it and some guys don't. You can only guess on who will make it happen. Assuming that every guy takes 3-4 years is a farce considering that the span of most NFL careers is 3.

It takes the right situation. Brady and Roeth went to teams that were that close already. If you notice they didn't go 1st in the draft to an expansion team.

texplayer2
02-05-2006, 01:00 AM
The LB's we have now wouldnt be able to catch him:superman:

:superman: :rolleyes:

TreWardTxn
02-05-2006, 02:31 AM
It takes the right situation. Brady and Roeth went to teams that were that close already. If you notice they didn't go 1st in the draft to an expansion team.

The Pats didn't look anywhere close to winning much before Drew got clobbered on the sideline. I believe they were winless (check on that, no Pats fan here), but they certainly had some pieces in place, and as much as I hate to say it...the QB change alone propelled that team to the post-season (tuck rule all the way after that...) Brady being efficient in the offense kept the defense off the field, teams got behind and had to catch up, the D, which was not phenomenal '01 Ravens quality, was able to force picks and fumbles. Combine that with good special teams (TXNs got that!) and it adds up to playoff apperences and wins. I think the same thing goes for Ben, although he did have a top-rated D and remarkable running game, but I still think it is undeniable that he is a gamer, a confident and capable player. You could not simply plug any QB into that offense and have them go 24-6 (or whatever it is)over two years...

Carr Bombed
02-05-2006, 03:48 AM
actually the pats were a good team. They were a few years removed from a superbowl appearance. I'm not saying Tom didn't give them a spark, because he did, but being drafted so low he went to a team that was ready to compete and also went to a very weak division at the time, he fell in a great situation.

The same goes for Big Ben, he also fell to a very solid Superbowl contending team. He had the luxury of going to a team that had a solid Oline, Dline, lbs, rbs, secondary, and a solid group of wrs. Big Ben is a solid qb, which is why he is having so much success. If you put a good QB on a solid team he is going to get wins.

People often ask why #1 ovrl. QBs having trouble succeeding, its because they go to crappy teams.

Wharton
02-05-2006, 08:07 AM
I've calmed my rhetoric about the draft because it seems I made a bunch of people mad. But, personally don't understand why the Texans and some of their fans think David Carr could do anything for us. By the end of four years there should be no question in anyone’s mind about the quarterback position. The best anyone, even Carr supporters, can say is "David has allot of potential." Does anyone see David out campaigning for his job? I've seen a little bit, but not that much.

We have the opportunity to draft a real good native son, who want to be here and is campaigning real hard to be a Texan. I say “real good”, because that’s all we know about Vince Young. Yes, there are allot of questions about Vince that will have to be answered in the coming years. But, he has allot of potential and has not had four years of beatings (200 sacks). David showed last year that he is damaged goods; let him go to another team and start over. It would probably be the best thing for both sides.

I hire and fire subcontractors all the time. The quality that appears to set the difference between the subs that stay employed and subs that don't is passion. Who has passion? David or Vince? The answer is clear - Vince.

:fans:

Kaiser Toro
02-05-2006, 09:36 AM
I do not know what is worse, the entitlement like excuses for Carr's lack of performance and pending extension or the ridiculous ways that people try to diminish VY's performance in his decorated career.

In my world we have neither next year, but the Carr lovers are reminiscient of the politics of personal destruction that are championed by ideological extremists.

Wordem
02-05-2006, 09:53 AM
VY is going to make one hell of a Texan. I can't wait.

Kaiser Toro
02-05-2006, 09:56 AM
Do you think that that had to do with the other 50+ guy on the team? The Coaches the scheme? Excuses or the Truth.
I personaly have never seen one person on a TEAM be attacked like this.

I hear people say that Dom was not a good coach, his coaching staff was a joke, News casters making fun of our plays and how Vanilla our Offense was on national TV. But Carr should still play like a ProBowler and take us to the Playoffs. Lot of sense being made around here every day.

If there were 50+ other guys getting paid this type of jack then I would not be on Carr, but the truth is he gets paid the most on the team and does not perform on par with the amount we pay him.

Let me ask you this. Knowing what you know about Carr in these four years and we had the chance to draft him #1 again, would you? Have you seen enough where it would be a no brainer that this is the guy?

Vinny
02-05-2006, 10:17 AM
The same goes for Big Ben, he also fell to a very solid Superbowl contending team. He had the luxury of going to a team that had a solid Oline, Dline, lbs, rbs, secondary, and a solid group of wrs. Big Ben is a solid qb, which is why he is having so much success. If you put a good QB on a solid team he is going to get wins.The Steelers were 6-10 (that's called a losing season folks) the year before Ben got there and when he was injured this year the Steelers struggled. Ben took them to 15-1 his first year and a Super Bowl his second year. I don't know why people think it's everyone but Ben. Pittsburgh hasn't won a Super Bowl in 24 years.

Erratic Assassin
02-05-2006, 10:19 AM
backs dont have that long of shelf-life. Bush already has the durability question and if he never answers it, are we renting him for 7 years???

7 years would be good. Most running backs only last 5 years.

On the other hand, how many years did the Oilers/Titans get out of Bruce Matthews?

Vinny
02-05-2006, 10:30 AM
And Vinny it was not as hard for Ben as it was for Carr the last couple of years. I know, I know...Carr isn't to be criticized around you. I only talked of Ben you know....I never mentioned your Man.

Kaiser Toro
02-05-2006, 10:35 AM
Yes, I have. Heres my point if he is not the guy then I am sure we will draft Vince and not pick up Carrs option, Okay.
But seeing all the coaches and GM and owner stick up for Carr makes me think that they know more then you do.

That seems like a heart felt answer and therefore cannot disagree.

bigTEXan8
02-05-2006, 10:37 AM
The Steelers were 6-10 (that's called a losing season folks) the year before Ben got there and when he was injured this year the Steelers struggled. Ben took them to 15-1 his first year and a Super Bowl his second year. I don't know why people think it's everyone but Ben. Pittsburgh hasn't won a Super Bowl in 24 years.

I admit, Big Ben is a solid QB. Doesn't force a lot of stuff, plays within his means. But at the same time, Jauron wasn't there to work with Pitt's D to make them the dominant force they have been the past couple years when they did go 6-10. Plus, their secondary was riddled with injuries that year.

By the way Vinny, nice to see you man. I haven't seen you lately.

Tulip
02-05-2006, 10:41 AM
Yes, I have. Heres my point if he is not the guy then I am sure we will draft Vince and not pick up Carrs option, Okay.
But seeing all the coaches and GM and owner stick up for Carr makes me think that they know more then you do.

But these guys are human. It could be that one of those guys loves Carr so much (on a personal level) that he begs for people to tell him that Carr is going to be great and that another of the guys just doesn't want to be wrong.

As for the coaches, I really don't know what their opinions are. I mean Kubiak hasn't really said anything to tell me that he really "believes" in David Carr. But it would be hard for him to believe in a player that he hasn't really spent time with yet.

Vinny
02-05-2006, 10:46 AM
By the way Vinny, nice to see you man. I haven't seen you lately.I'm here lurking...I'm just staying out of this silly stuff. I contribute best during the season relaying what I see. Most of the stuff I see on the board at this point is spin and posturing and propaganda pimping favorite players....forget reality...I gotta spin it up.

I don't do well with that kind of post so I'm not participating much right now.

bigTEXan8
02-05-2006, 10:50 AM
I'm here lurking...I'm just staying out of this silly stuff. I contribute best during the season relaying what I see. Most of the stuff I see on the board at this point is spin and posturing and propaganda pimping favorite players....forget reality...I gotta spin it up.

I don't do well with that kind of post so I'm not participating much right now.

You and me both brotha. But for some reason, no matter how much I :brickwall , I just don't seem to get it. Oh well!!

Vinny
02-05-2006, 10:57 AM
You and me both brotha. But for some reason, no matter how much I :brickwall , I just don't seem to get it. Oh well!!You Fresno St guys are very loyal...and it's commendable, and I can respect that. I'll give you guys that much. :redtowel:

HoustonFrog
02-05-2006, 11:10 AM
actually the pats were a good team. They were a few years removed from a superbowl appearance. I'm not saying Tom didn't give them a spark, because he did, but being drafted so low he went to a team that was ready to compete and also went to a very weak division at the time, he fell in a great situation.

The same goes for Big Ben, he also fell to a very solid Superbowl contending team. He had the luxury of going to a team that had a solid Oline, Dline, lbs, rbs, secondary, and a solid group of wrs. Big Ben is a solid qb, which is why he is having so much success. If you put a good QB on a solid team he is going to get wins.

People often ask why #1 ovrl. QBs having trouble succeeding, its because they go to crappy teams.

I just don't get some of you people's reasoning. No matter the situation they still had to come in as young players and play and succeed. When people make excuses for players on this board they say it is because they had to get up to speed after college..then people turn around and say that these guys just lucked into situations. If this was how the NFL worked then Ryan Leaf and many others with talent would have been dropped, eventually, on a talent laden team and won. It isn't the luck. It is the player. Roeth and Brady have something that others don't..poise and leaderships ability. Confidence in their game. When Brady stepped in that 3rd game of the year Bledsoe had been getting pounded. How come it didn't affect him and where did he learn how to be so good in the pocket?Excuses go both ways and you can't have it both ways. These guys are good and there are analysts praising them daily because they have an ability that most guys that are QBs in the league lack.

HoustonFrog
02-05-2006, 11:13 AM
So the Houston Texans Franchise is wrong, they dont know what they are doing, You know what they should do. The Houston Texans Franchise is wrong and your right, DANG that is a new one.
Now Carr has no passion for the game he has been playing and the Double days he has done since he was in High School.
Really this web site is a joke, it is a perfect place for people that "Dont know Football" (thats right) to come and shoot their mouth off.

Just like posters that tell people to leave the board and say a man is immature because he dances. :rolleyes: Some people need to step off the ledge and take a break. Wanting Bush or VY or Leinart or trading down really isn't so bad that you have to get so personal. I want Bush but can see why people love VY or Williams or Hawk...not Carr:)

Wolf
02-05-2006, 11:14 AM
I just don't get some of you people's reasoning. No matter the situation they still had to come in as young players and play and succeed. When people make excuses for players on this board they say it is because they had to get up to speed after college..then people turn around and say that these guys just lucked into situations. If this was how the NFL worked than Ryan Leaf and many others with talent would have been dropped, eventually, on a talent laden team and won. It isn't the luck. It is the player. Roeth and Brady have something that others don't..poise and leaderships ability. Confidence in their game. When Brady stepped in that 3rd game of the year Bledsoe had been getting pounded. How come it didn't affect him and where di dhe learn how to be so good in the pocket?Excuses go both ways and you can't have it both ways. These guys are good and there are analysys praising them dailt because they have an ability that most guys that are QBs in the league lack.



it is called confidence in yourself ,confidence that your teammates will make the plays, and confidence in your coaching staff


both sides of the Texan's ball lacked 2 out of 3 of those and maybe all 3

HoustonFrog
02-05-2006, 11:22 AM
it is called confidence in yourself ,confidence that your teammates will make the plays, and confidence in your coaching staff


both sides of the Texan's ball lacked 2 out of 3 of those and maybe all 3

Correct. Good post. When you are a rookie or a 2nd year guy that confidence isn't automatic in most and no matter the team you still have to step in and play. It reminds me of the days when people used to say Aikman was overrated because he was surrounded by talent. Well he took a massive pounding his rookie year and I still saw a guy threading passes to guys. You can have as much talent as necessary but you still have to check down, call audibles, move and be comfortible in the pocket and be able to put the ball on the money and to the right people. Maybe the QB makes those guys better. I just am not going to take away things from guys who are naturals.

HoustonFan
02-05-2006, 11:22 AM
Damn, Vince.

Can't even be mad at that. The guy wants to play for the team reppin' his city. That's awesome to me. I'm inching over to the VY band wagon all of a sudden. However, the team still needs other personnel to help improve this team and ultimately make it a playoff calibur and championship team.

And as much as I like the Cowboys - really hoping that those talks b/w Jerry Jones and Tom Benson fail - I hope he doesn't end up in Dallas. That would hurt more than VY ending up in Tennessee.

Tale Gator
02-05-2006, 02:00 PM
Most of the stuff I see on the board at this point is spin and posturing and propaganda pimping favorite players....forget reality...I gotta spin it up.

No propaganda, no spin in this thread.

Just discussing a kid who's showing some love and wanting to play for his hometown.

This is the most outspoken Vince has been about being a part of our team -- certainly deserves some solid discussion from both side of the fence.

:cool:

JDizzle
02-05-2006, 03:48 PM
I really like that about Vince. He's not a typical, recycled interview kind of person, which is something we could really use here. When you hear kids interviewing, or heck, even professional players (save for the occasional loudmouth) it all sounds like recycled professional sports jargon to me. A personality like Vince Young becoming a face for our franchise would be a good thing IMO.

Decisions, decisions ....

Cheap_Sunglasses
02-05-2006, 07:52 PM
Really this web site is a joke, it is a perfect place for people that "Dont know Football" (thats right) to come and shoot their mouth off.

So why don't you leave us alone? We might not know football (according to you), but at least our town can get an NFL franchise, unlike So Cal.

I think you're nothing more than a bitter USC fan who is pissed off that your beloved Reggie Bush might not go #1 in the draft. If you're not, why all the VY bashing? It's even in your sig!

TreWardTxn
02-05-2006, 10:32 PM
Do you think that that had to do with the other 50+ guy on the team? The Coaches the scheme? Excuses or the Truth.
I personaly have never seen one person on a TEAM be attacked like this.

I hear people say that Dom was not a good coach, his coaching staff was a joke, News casters making fun of our plays and how Vanilla our Offense was on national TV. But Carr should still play like a ProBowler and take us to the Playoffs. Lot of sense being made around here every day.

This simply isn't true. Quarterbacks get lambasted all the time when they (and therefore the team) fail to bring in wins for the franchise. Just recently, Tim Couch was receiving death threats by the time he was run out of town and Joey Harrington is going through it right now. When a team does not win, the first player to be attacked is usually the QB. Dilfer was ousted by Billick after he was the QB of a Superbowl winning team. QBs (usually) get all the credit and they (almost always) get all the blame for offensive bumblings.

And I will say this; I don't profess to know a lot about David Carr, but one thing I do distinctly remember is reading an SI article on him while still at Fresno State and the article tried to drive home two points; one, that Carr was a loyal person, as he grew up next to Fresno St. and good as he was, still went there to play in college, and two, that he was a God-fearing family man. I do feel that the Texans org (McNair) let the latter quality factor greatly into selecting Carr, and in (likely) retaining him as well. Having a wife and family at a young age does not translate as well into football success, as having the gift of charisma, and being able to inspire teammates to play their best. Because Carr is so loyal and a (seemingly) genuine person, it might be tough for McNair to cut him loose, effectually giving up on him.

kbourda
02-06-2006, 12:21 AM
This simply isn't true. Quarterbacks get lambasted all the time when they (and therefore the team) fail to bring in wins for the franchise. Just recently, Tim Couch was receiving death threats by the time he was run out of town and Joey Harrington is going through it right now. When a team does not win, the first player to be attacked is usually the QB. Dilfer was ousted by Billick after he was the QB of a Superbowl winning team. QBs (usually) get all the credit and they (almost always) get all the blame for offensive bumblings.

And I will say this; I don't profess to know a lot about David Carr, but one thing I do distinctly remember is reading an SI article on him while still at Fresno State and the article tried to drive home two points; one, that Carr was a loyal person, as he grew up next to Fresno St. and good as he was, still went there to play in college, and two, that he was a God-fearing family man. I do feel that the Texans org (McNair) let the latter quality factor greatly into selecting Carr, and in (likely) retaining him as well. Having a wife and family at a young age does not translate as well into football success, as having the gift of charisma, and being able to inspire teammates to play their best. Because Carr is so loyal and a (seemingly) genuine person, it might be tough for McNair to cut him loose, effectually giving up on him.

I think you're right. Carr being such a great guy is factoring heavily in the decision to keep him.

Nighthawk
02-06-2006, 12:48 AM
I think you're right. Carr being such a great guy is factoring heavily in the decision to keep him.

Why not let the players decide? A secret ballot, of course, and the whole team votes whether they want David Carr or Vince Young as the QB.

Maybe that would turn some heads.

Bobo
02-06-2006, 01:36 AM
Do you think Young wants to be in Houston because he'd end up being the #1 overall and would rake in tons and tons of money? Nah, that couldn't be it.

Bronco Texan
02-06-2006, 03:03 AM
All you Vince Young homers are getting more and more pathetic each and every day! I can't believe you are really going to hold this statement against Bush. It is nice the Young holds his home town so close to his heart, but it isn't like every player in the Texans locker room really wanted to play for the Texans. Truth is deep down every football player just is grateful to be on an NFL team. It isn't like Bush is saying "Well I really don't want to play for the Texans, but since they have the first pick what the hell." The guy is saying no matter what team he is pumped to not only be the first pick but to be playing for an NFL team. You really can't hold that against him, especially since that is how almost every other NFL player views their situation. Wether it be the Texans or the Steelers every NFL player is glad to be in the league. I wonder what the threads will look like on Draft day when the first pick is called out and it wont be Houston wasting it on VY. Yes I said wasting, because that is what it is called when you use the first overall pick on the second rated QB(3rd rated player) in the draft. Just let it go. VY is talented and at least you will get to see him play in Houston every year when the Titans come into town.

Big B Texan Fan
02-06-2006, 07:22 AM
All you Vince Young homers are getting more and more pathetic each and every day! I can't believe you are really going to hold this statement against Bush. It is nice the Young holds his home town so close to his heart, but it isn't like every player in the Texans locker room really wanted to play for the Texans. Truth is deep down every football player just is grateful to be on an NFL team. It isn't like Bush is saying "Well I really don't want to play for the Texans, but since they have the first pick what the hell." The guy is saying no matter what team he is pumped to not only be the first pick but to be playing for an NFL team. You really can't hold that against him, especially since that is how almost every other NFL player views their situation. Wether it be the Texans or the Steelers every NFL player is glad to be in the league. I wonder what the threads will look like on Draft day when the first pick is called out and it wont be Houston wasting it on VY. Yes I said wasting, because that is what it is called when you use the first overall pick on the second rated QB(3rd rated player) in the draft. Just let it go. VY is talented and at least you will get to see him play in Houston every year when the Titans come into town.

Couple of points here on your radundant post:
I'm sick and tired of the hating that goes on from the people who despise VY lovers just because he's from here. Majority of us think he's the BPA. Problem is we'll never know until 2-3 years pass but I'm sure it'll still be a hot topic of debate on these MB's for the next 10 years. Especially if we don't take him and he and Bud get to hoist a Lombardi Trophy or 3 while we still tinker with Carrs' football senses and watch Bush run all over the place between the 20's.

And to your 3rd rated QB crap. Ben R-Berger was the 3rd rated QB but that seemed to have worked pretty good for him. Draft boards are usually off a bit any ways.

HoustonFrog
02-06-2006, 07:58 AM
No message

thunderkyss
02-06-2006, 08:24 AM
We'll never know which of any of the players in this years draft is the BPA........ Never. Especially not these two, since one is a QB, and the other is a RB........ one will go to the worst team in the league, and the other will go to the second worse.... Neither team needs a QB, neither team needs a RB. Neither team needs recievers either. They both suffer in the same area, OLine, and Defensive Pressure. I'm sorry, I'm getting off on another subject......


Point is, they are going to different teams, and will be doing different teams. If Bush Goes to N.O., I think he'll have a better carreer, than if he came to Houston. That team to me, is more StLois Rams, than Houston...... speed Stallworth, a solid #2 WR, Horn, who has better than avg speed, and is physically small, but is probably the best possesion reciever in the league right now. Both block well for the running back, who is pretty stout, and pounds the ball...... then 8 games out of the year, they will be playing on turf.. They've got a young offensive minded creative coach.... and a QB with a cannon(not much between the ears, but if ever a QB needed coaching....) In N.O., I think he will get the opportunity, to continue doing what he did in College..... share carries, recieve out of the backfield, and be a slot or 4th reciever....

By that Token, Vince would also have a much better Carreer, if he played in N.O. they play out of the shotgun 80%-90% of the time already. He'll be able to start from day one. N.O.s depth at RB isn't as deep as ours though, so he'll be in trouble if Duece goes down, and he becomes the only real rushing threat on that team. But again, I like our recievers better, but in N.O., you have a definitve #2 threat, who has good hands, and makes plays when he needs to, and we've got to find out who our #2 is. Or at least he has to prove that he is a #2, by catching the ball. Both Horn & Dante can get down the field in a hurry, and they've had good production from their tightend, in the passing game.

But, back to my point..... they'll go to completely different situations. Their contributions to their respective teams are going to be different. Either of them can get hurt early in their carreer, and never get a chance to do anything, so we'll never know which is the BPA.

TreWardTxn
02-06-2006, 10:25 AM
it is called confidence in yourself ,confidence that your teammates will make the plays, and confidence in your coaching staff


both sides of the Texan's ball lacked 2 out of 3 of those and maybe all 3

Wait a minute...if Carr (that is who you are talking about?) is lacking confidence in himself and his teammates, that is certainly an indictment of him, because the QB always has to believe that the guys around him can make plays or there is no hope from the start. The only way you do that is to work and sweat with those guys to the point where there is no doubt in your mind that they can perform to the highest of levels and do anything you expect of them. This is not to say that it still can't come crashing down around you, but if a guy doesn't believe in the 5 or 7 of the players around him, it will be quite awhile before the org. can replace those guys, and then due to cap issues, replace them with quality talent; if that's the route they choose to go...

CarrIsFine
02-06-2006, 10:35 AM
Sounds like we might be able to get Bush and Young. Think about it, VY loves Houston and dearly wants to play for the Texans. He is a charitable guy and wants to make amends for not bringing the Heisman to Texas. Houston needs VY and VY needs Houston.

Draft Bush first and pay him a ton of money. Just tell VY all of his dreams can come true by refusing to sign with any other team (see E. Manning) and pay him a salary = to the average QB in the league. Since it is not about the money, but about Houston, VY would jump at this opportunity and everyone would win. As a bonus, he could use his superpowers to fight crime in his off time. This is a no-brainer.

TreWardTxn
02-06-2006, 10:43 AM
Sounds like we might be able to get Bush and Young. Think about it, VY loves Houston and dearly wants to play for the Texans. He is a charitable guy and wants to make amends for not bringing the Heisman to Texas. Houston needs VY and VY needs Houston.

Draft Bush first and pay him a ton of money. Just tell VY all of his dreams can come true by refusing to sign with any other team (see E. Manning) and pay him a salary = to the average QB in the league. Since it is not about the money, but about Houston, VY would jump at this opportunity and everyone would win. As a bonus, he could use his superpowers to fight crime in his off time. This is a no-brainer.

Funny, but anybody who would knock Vince for simply saying it is his dreams to play for his hometown team needs to reevaluate some things. Elway refused to go to the team that drafted him and Eli and family engineered him an exit from San Diego, and they are both reverred by fans, Elway to legendary proportions. Talk to your people at Nike and get Vince a (guaranteed) $125M shoe contract or somethin before even steppin on the field, that might make his decision a bit easier...

CarrIsFine
02-06-2006, 11:17 AM
Funny, but anybody who would knock Vince for simply saying it is his dreams to play for his hometown team needs to reevaluate some things. Elway refused to go to the team that drafted him and Eli and family engineered him an exit from San Diego, and they are both reverred by fans, Elway to legendary proportions. Talk to your people at Nike and get Vince a (guaranteed) $125M shoe contract or somethin before even steppin on the field, that might make his decision a bit easier...
I'm not knocking VY, that is great that he wants to play for his hometown, who wouldn't? I was just poking fun at some of the posts on this thread.

cadahnic
02-06-2006, 11:23 AM
Elway and Eli are not revered by fans. Actually if you talk to people from Colorado, it took them a long time to accept Elway's bravado and abrasiveness. Eli is not overly liked in NY. They see the potential, but they feel for all the stink he raised he needs to be doing more. Elway eventually came to be a beloved member of the NFL and Eli may also but 2yrs in the league he is not close yet.

infantrycak
02-06-2006, 12:10 PM
I do not know what is worse, the entitlement like excuses for Carr's lack of performance and pending extension or the ridiculous ways that people try to diminish VY's performance in his decorated career.

In my world we have neither next year, but the Carr lovers are reminiscient of the politics of personal destruction that are championed by ideological extremists.

Or phrased another way, the hyperbolic projections of VY's NFL (already in the hall of fame) career or the ridiculous exaggeration of problems with David Carr's game (note the statement people--exaggeration, not a denial that he has problems--an assertion that some overstate them). But ideological extremists is a fair description.

Kaiser Toro
02-06-2006, 12:13 PM
[QUOTE=infantrycak]or the ridiculous exaggeration of problems with David Carr's game (note the statement people--exaggeration, not a denial that he has problems--an assertion that some overstate them)QUOTE]

Now who would be doing that? ;)

thunderkyss
02-06-2006, 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
I do not know what is worse, the entitlement like excuses for Carr's lack of performance and pending extension or the ridiculous ways that people try to diminish VY's performance in his decorated career.

In my world we have neither next year, but the Carr lovers are reminiscient of the politics of personal destruction that are championed by ideological extremists.
Here, Kaiser says "I don't know what is worse, the free ride given to Carr, or the flat out denial of Vince's Talent. I don't want Carr, and I don't want Vince, but the Carr supporters remind me of the liberal's who don't understand they keep loosing because of their politics, and not in spite of them.

Or phrased another way, the hyperbolic projections of VY's NFL (already in the hall of fame) career or the ridiculous exaggeration of problems with David Carr's game (note the statement people--exaggeration, not a denial that he has problems--an assertion that some overstate them). But ideological extremists is a fair description.
Here, infantrycak says........... "or the way I understand what you are saying..... the unrealistic expectations of Vince Young in the NFL vs Carr never had a fair chance(entitlement excuse). Ideological extremes for sure."


My reading comprehension may be a little off, but I don't think you understand what Kaiser is saying, as your post puts you firmly in the group of people Kaiser finds ridicule with.

infantrycak
02-06-2006, 12:20 PM
My reading comprehension may be a little off, but I don't think you understand what Kaiser is saying, as your post puts you firmly in the group of people Kaiser finds ridicule with.

Yeah, you are a little off, because I was pointing out the other extreme for Carr-haters/Vince Young-lovers to add to his ideological extremists.

thunderkyss
02-06-2006, 12:42 PM
Yeah, you are a little off, because I was pointing out the other extreme for Carr-haters/Vince Young-lovers to add to his ideological extremists.

Ok, I see...... my fault. It's just when I see Or phrased another way I assume that you're saying the same thing but in a different way, and not pointing out the extreme opposite position.

But you are in fact saying the other extreme.... Vince is God... David is a bust.. arguments are just as tiring as the Vince will bust.... David never had a fair chance... arguments.


thanks for clearing that up.

inVINCEable Texan
02-08-2006, 01:32 PM
Dear Santa,

All I want for X-mas this year is a Vince Young Texan Jersey!! :ok:

Thanx!

cadahnic
02-08-2006, 01:42 PM
Well you can order one from champs sports then.

travfrancis
02-08-2006, 02:02 PM
Dear Santa,

All I want for X-mas this year is a Vince Young Texan Jersey!!

no kidding, my bday is in march and im going to hold off on the presents until i see if vince is drafted by us or not, if so an authentic vince young texans jersey is in my future. :superman:

TreWardTxn
02-08-2006, 04:58 PM
All you Vince Young homers are getting more and more pathetic each and every day! I can't believe you are really going to hold this statement against Bush. It is nice the Young holds his home town so close to his heart, but it isn't like every player in the Texans locker room really wanted to play for the Texans. Truth is deep down every football player just is grateful to be on an NFL team. It isn't like Bush is saying "Well I really don't want to play for the Texans, but since they have the first pick what the hell." The guy is saying no matter what team he is pumped to not only be the first pick but to be playing for an NFL team. You really can't hold that against him, especially since that is how almost every other NFL player views their situation. Wether it be the Texans or the Steelers every NFL player is glad to be in the league. I wonder what the threads will look like on Draft day when the first pick is called out and it wont be Houston wasting it on VY. Yes I said wasting, because that is what it is called when you use the first overall pick on the second rated QB(3rd rated player) in the draft. Just let it go. VY is talented and at least you will get to see him play in Houston every year when the Titans come into town.


The thing about the draft is that for the top 2-3 guys in it, perhaps for the only time in their upcoming careers, they are not like "every other player", during those few days, they are the object every bad team in the league wants to get their hands on, and yes, going #1 has a lot to do with money and prestige, but don't think guys have no preference in where they would like to go. There are lots of concerns, warm weather v. cold weather, small market vs. big market ($$), close to family v. far from family. If I were an incoming pick I would rather chat up the Texans than Saints, so I can have a home, rather be in the big city of Houston, rather than be in country Tennessee, and if I were from California, I'd much prefer the weather here then in NY...

Big B Texan Fan
02-09-2006, 02:43 AM
:Tumblewee <<<<<waiting for a Young Texans jersey...........:)
Cuz they'll be sold out for at least a year

Wordem
02-09-2006, 01:24 PM
Robert Randolph knows what's up.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060209/capt.las16502090100.grammys_las165.jpg

El Tejano
02-09-2006, 01:30 PM
That pic is crazy. Man we got to get Vince. He will be so popular that the NFL will hook us up with officiating like it did for Pittsburgh.

tulexan
02-09-2006, 01:33 PM
That pic is crazy. Man we got to get Vince. He will be so popular that the NFL will hook us up with officiating like it did for Pittsburgh.


You don't draft the most popular player, you draft the best player, and Vince is not the best player on anyone's list (except for Longhorn fans)

jerek
02-09-2006, 01:36 PM
You don't draft the most popular player, you draft the best player, and Vince is not the best player on anyone's list (except for Longhorn fans)

Ssh, don't start that again :homer:

DRAMA
02-09-2006, 01:48 PM
Tulexan - I need some Bush energy from you...I'm starting to waver back and forth between VY and Bush....

When VY said he WANTS that Texans across his chest, I won't lie - that did something for me. I still think Bush is the better pick of the two...but as Captain Kirk would say...


Can't........................breathe.............. ............need........................to make...............a.............................. ......decision......................Spockkk!

bigTEXan8
02-09-2006, 01:51 PM
You don't draft the most popular player, you draft the best player, and Vince is not the best player on anyone's list (except for Longhorn fans)

Nice post. My question is this: If VY went to any school outside of Texas, would people be this enamored with VY? I personally don't think so.

Wordem
02-09-2006, 01:52 PM
You don't draft the most popular player, you draft the best player, and Vince is not the best player on anyone's list (except for Longhorn fans)

If they don't take him, the franchise is doomed. And by the way, VY is the best player on the board. It's not even close.

tulexan
02-09-2006, 01:56 PM
Of course they wouldn't be this enamored with him if he didn't go to Texas. That is the reason why we are having the Vince v. Reggie debate, and not the Vince v. Reggie v. Matt v. Jay debate. If QB was truly a desperate need of the Texans, then we would be having the debate of which QB helps us the most. But it is not, so we are not having that debate.

And for all of the people who are going to equate Reggie into that argument, don't bother. Reggie is clearly head and toes above the rest in the RB class and is even in the upper echelon of the WR group. If Vince was clearly the best, then you could make that argument, but he is not clearly the best. Some would argue that he isn't even clearly the 2nd best.

DRAMA
02-09-2006, 02:01 PM
Reggie is clearly head and toes above the rest in the RB class and is even in the upper echelon of the WR group. If Vince was clearly the best, then you could make that argument, but he is not clearly the best. Some would argue that he isn't even clearly the 2nd best.

Ok - that helps a little!! :)

Wordem
02-09-2006, 02:47 PM
he is not clearly the best.

Yes, he is. It's not even close.

jerek
02-09-2006, 02:51 PM
Of course they wouldn't be this enamored with him if he didn't go to Texas. That is the reason why we are having the Vince v. Reggie debate, and not the Vince v. Reggie v. Matt v. Jay debate. If QB was truly a desperate need of the Texans, then we would be having the debate of which QB helps us the most. But it is not, so we are not having that debate.

This is the most telling part of the draft debate. No one has uttered a peep about former Rose Bowl champ and Heisman winner Matt Leinart, a guy who is projected by a substantial majority of scouts, analysts, and NFL executives to be as good a quarterback, if not better - as well as more immediately NFL-ready - than Vince.

NO ONE HAS SAID A WORD ABOUT LEINART ON THIS BOARD. Or any other QB (Cutler, etc.) for that matter.

For the slow witted amongst us, I will tell you why. It is because this is not about drafting a quarterback so much as it is finding a scapegoat (David Carr) and matching that perceived problem with a guy whom the UT fans and hometown guys really, really, desperately want to play for us.

It is fine to like Vince and fine to want to see him play for the Texans. I guess it just amazes me the lengths to which the Vince bandwagon will go to try to make a case for the guy. And yes, of course, I am a David Carr homer myself, so commence with ignoring the logical substance of what I have just said and keep firing away.

Edit: And of course, I should qualify that with "most of" the Vince bandwagon. There are several posters who want Vince and can make an articulate, even compelling case, for drafting him. They are the substantial minority, however, amongst a majority of "VINCE OR BUST CAUSE THIS CARR SUCKS!!!" type B.S.

bigTEXan8
02-09-2006, 02:59 PM
I would say that most scouts have the top 3 QBs in this years draft looking something like this:
1. Matt Leinart
2. Jay Cutler
3. VY

Now, if it was a battle of who was the more athletic QB, it would look like this:
1. VY
2. Cutler
3. more than likely, not Leinart

AustinJB
02-09-2006, 03:12 PM
And for all of the people who are going to equate Reggie into that argument, don't bother. Reggie is clearly head and toes above the rest in the RB class and is even in the upper echelon of the WR group. If Vince was clearly the best, then you could make that argument, but he is not clearly the best. Some would argue that he isn't even clearly the 2nd best.

I am so sick of people speaking in absolutes. If you think that Bush is "clearly head and toes above the rest in the RB class," that is fine. I don't. I think he will be a good back in the NFL, but I think that Lendale White and DeAngelo Williams are just as good. Bush gets so much publicity b/c of his explosiveness (as does VY,) but that doesn't mean that he'll be that explosive against NFL defenses. If you put D.Williams on the USC team and give him the ball when Bush got the ball, I have to think the results would be close to the same (of course this is my opinion and pure speculation.)

And I do think that VY is the best QB in this draft. I've never really been impressed w/ Leinart. I've seen Leinart make just as many bad passes, if not more, than VY. VY gets a bad rep just b/c of his side-arm motion and the fact that he has better wheels than Leinart.

The top five PASS DEFENSES that Leinart faced (not counting the Rose Bowl) are ranked like this: 31st, 45th, 68th, 72nd, and 77th.
VY's are ranked as: 15th, 23rd, 43rd, 53rd, and 56th.

Against TOTAL DEFENSE rank, it goes like this.....
Leinart: 34th, 38th, 44th, 46th, and 75th
VY: 5th, 11th, 13th, 30th, and 41st

Based upon their numbers and the level of competition they faced, I think VY is better. If you don't, that is fine, but I have the stats to back up my belief.:ok:

chuckm
02-09-2006, 03:14 PM
Based upon their numbers and the level of competition they faced, I think VY is better.

how's the weather in Austin today?

El Tejano
02-09-2006, 03:15 PM
Nice post. My question is this: If VY went to any school outside of Texas, would people be this enamored with VY? I personally don't think so.
Of course because he would've taken that team the Natl. Championship too.

AustinJB
02-09-2006, 03:16 PM
how's the weather in Austin today?

Beautiful....sunny and a little windy.:)

El Tejano
02-09-2006, 03:16 PM
how's the weather in Austin today?
Very nice actually since Vince Young won the Natl Championship for us. Imagine what it would be like in Houston if they draft him and in 3 years takes us to the SB.

chuckm
02-09-2006, 03:18 PM
Very nice actually since Vince Young won the Natl Championship for us. Imagine what it would be like in Houston if they draft him and in 3 years takes us to the SB.


I'm in the middle of my mid-afternoon slump right now ... I'll imagine it later ...

Big B Texan Fan
02-09-2006, 03:22 PM
Jerek-Drama-Tulexan-MorKnolle

Just like when a team fires a Defensive minded HC to acquire an Offensive minded HC. Teams will shy away from a scramblin' QB if they already have had one and go for the pocket passer with a hint of escapability and vice-versa. Kinda like how the Saints seem to want Leinert since they already gave the scramblin' QB a try.

You guys are hilarious when ya'll get together. Ya'll remind of the texans scouts who have hand-cuffed this team yet try to cover up the mistakes made by buying Carr more time. Oh...Kubes will fix everything, hope so but he's new to his position and so is most of his staff. On top of that they're all working together for the 1st time (most of them at least). Can you say 4-12 in year 1.

All bush does for this team is put a band-aide on a gash that needs stitches as well as immediate medical attention. You wanna be an 8-8 team in 3 years then take bush. Then after that then what kinda contract do you give carr. Something equilivent to any QB that had his starting job for 7 years and no playoff appearances. Wanna be in the playoffs in 2 years then take young.

Speaking of Carr and his contract, why haven't they offered the option yet. I'm sure they're picking it up but why the wait. Soaking up the news spotlight. I thought this was the week. Or are they waiting for the wkend so the local radio shows won't get ahold of it until Mon.?? And if they are so sold on him then why not trash the first contract, forget about the option and write up a new one to the tune of 5-6 years for $80 mill. That's similar to most QB's get when given an extension.

And all this "some will argue" crap ya'll keep drumming up, we'll what do you expect, some will argue the opposite opinion.

And no MoreKnolle, I don't want to hear what your supposed friend/scout/draft evaluator/whatever has to say. When you leave a name or exact position or e-mail address then we don't want to hear about it

Drama-
I've gotta run but I'll find you later and try to get you to cross-over to the Vince side. Bush is awesome though. I sent some clips to some friends of the 2 of them and re-watched the ones of bush and was re-blown away. We need a QB though more than anything, O-line 2nd, DE 3rd, TE 4th, and then we maybe a scat back type of RB. I'll holla @ ya L8R.

chuckm
02-09-2006, 03:24 PM
You guys are hilarious when ya'll get together.

you left me out ... I'm funny ... ask anyone ... go ahead, I dare you

Kaiser Toro
02-09-2006, 03:25 PM
You guys are hilarious when ya'll get together. Ya'll

You have more trouble on your hands than Jerek, Drama, Tulexan and Mork. I found at least three misspelled y'alls in there and that means you will have to answer to Your Y'allness, Infantrycak. :)

powerfuldragon
02-09-2006, 04:00 PM
Draft Vince Young and run the single wing, per woody.

Big B Texan Fan
02-09-2006, 04:10 PM
you left me out ... I'm funny ... ask anyone ... go ahead, I dare you
This is how bad this is getting:
I realized that I did leave you out while I was away from the computer. Pretty sad huh.

jerek
02-09-2006, 04:12 PM
Jerek-Drama-Tulexan-MorKnolle

Just like when a team fires a Defensive minded HC to acquire an Offensive minded HC. Teams will shy away from a scramblin' QB if they already have had one and go for the pocket passer with a hint of escapability and vice-versa. Kinda like how the Saints seem to want Leinert since they already gave the scramblin' QB a try.

I'm sorry ... I'm confused. This has what to do with anything? Are you purporting that the Texans will shy away from a scrambling QB, because Carr is a scrambling QB? Please explain, if you were indeed trying to make a point (though I doubt it.)

You guys are hilarious when ya'll get together. Ya'll remind of the texans scouts who have hand-cuffed this team yet try to cover up the mistakes made by buying Carr more time. Oh...Kubes will fix everything, hope so but he's new to his position and so is most of his staff. On top of that they're all working together for the 1st time (most of them at least). Can you say 4-12 in year 1.

Still waiting for something besides pure counter-conjecture ... So our assertion (a feeling that goes far beyond this little circle that you have clumped us into) that Kubiak will do big things for this team is meaningless, but your equally unproven assertion that Vince is The Answer with a capital A is suddenly valid because ... why again?

All bush does for this team is put a band-aide on a gash that needs stitches as well as immediate medical attention. You wanna be an 8-8 team in 3 years then take bush. Then after that then what kinda contract do you give carr. Something equilivent to any QB that had his starting job for 7 years and no playoff appearances. Wanna be in the playoffs in 2 years then take young.

Still waiting ... Cute word picture, but if you want to use an analogy, you ought to do something in the way of providing an explanation. Do you have a crystal ball, some kind of complex mathematical formula, or at least a clean porcelain toilet that you are pulling these stunning statistical predictions from?

Speaking of Carr and his contract, why haven't they offered the option yet. I'm sure they're picking it up but why the wait. Soaking up the news spotlight. I thought this was the week. Or are they waiting for the wkend so the local radio shows won't get ahold of it until Mon.?? And if they are so sold on him then why not trash the first contract, forget about the option and write up a new one to the tune of 5-6 years for $80 mill. That's similar to most QB's get when given an extension.

I'm sorry, still waiting for something relevant ... So they haven't announced Carr's resigning, they have time. Maybe they are redoing the deal, maybe they are letting him go, and who knows, maybe we will draft Vince and you will win yourself fifty dollars. Then again, why are you speaking in absolutes, it's still CONJECTURE.

And all this "some will argue" crap ya'll keep drumming up, we'll what do you expect, some will argue the opposite opinion.

And no MoreKnolle, I don't want to hear what your supposed friend/scout/draft evaluator/whatever has to say. When you leave a name or exact position or e-mail address then we don't want to hear about it

I spent the better part of five paragraphs' reading trying to find your answer to my question. Alas, I did not. So, I repeat:

If this draft is really about fixing the QB position, then

Why haven't we heard a word on this entire board about drafting any other QB besides Vince Young, when it is widely and accurately reported that many scouting departments feel Leinart is as good as if not better than, and more NFL-ready than Young?

Leinart won the Heisman and the National Championship last year. He put together a pretty damned good year this year too, and his team came up a whole three points shy of beating your hero's team. Would think that deserves at least a little mention, don't you?

Or is it because David Carr makes a great scapegoat, and too conveniently, happens to play the position that you would give anything to see your newfound Longhorn hero playing for us this fall?

Hmmmm :spy:

stevo3883
02-09-2006, 04:17 PM
its pretty obvious why we wouldnt draft Leinart... He's a less mobile, weaker armed version of Carr. The thing about Young that is so appealing is his ability to make plays with his legs.

Leinart needs an established team with good skill players to succeed, Young not so much.

A bad o-line makes a fantastic running qb more attractive than a slow-footed protypical pocket passer.


come on, its common sense... it would be like the falcons drafting marcus vick, or the ravens drafting jay cutler...

Coach C.
02-09-2006, 04:24 PM
The battle raging between Jerek, Tulexan, Mork and the VY supporters is completely hilarious. I personally dont want VY cause he is not a good fit for our team. Dont want Reggie Bush because we have a capable back that just needs less carries. I want Mario Williams the best defensive player in the draft and an absolute Monster on the line. Now we can easily go into each players strengths, weaknesses, or the much loved "it" factor, but doesn't boil down to the fact that VY supporters will support him regardless, Bush supporters the same, and trade down people will look at the whole of the team in an objective manner. I must say the next 3months of this is gonna get really good before it dies off.

infantrycak
02-09-2006, 04:28 PM
its pretty obvious why we wouldnt draft Leinart... He's a less mobile, weaker armed version of Carr. The thing about Young that is so appealing is his ability to make plays with his legs.

Funny, listening to all the Vince Young supporters describe Carr's faults (and yes he does have some) it seems like a more NFL ready QB like Leinart would be able to step right in and will show us all how really the OL isn't so bad, a good QB would make due and get the ball out quickly, using all of the WR's and the schemes were fine but Carr was just unable to make any of it work. Odd also how VY folks run headlong from any comparison to Vick if that is what makes Young sooo appealing.

jerek
02-09-2006, 04:32 PM
Funny, listening to all the Vince Young supporters describe Carr's faults (and yes he does have some) it seems like a more NFL ready QB like Leinart would be able to step right in and will show us all how really the OL isn't so bad, a good QB would make due and get the ball out quickly, using all of the WR's and the schemes were fine but Carr was just unable to make any of it work. Odd also how VY folks run headlong from any comparison to Vick if that is what makes Young sooo appealing.

Hear that?

If a bad argument crumbles in the woods, and no one's around, does it still make a sound?

stevo3883
02-09-2006, 04:43 PM
Funny, listening to all the Vince Young supporters describe Carr's faults (and yes he does have some) it seems like a more NFL ready QB like Leinart would be able to step right in and will show us all how really the OL isn't so bad, a good QB would make due and get the ball out quickly, using all of the WR's and the schemes were fine but Carr was just unable to make any of it work. Odd also how VY folks run headlong from any comparison to Vick if that is what makes Young sooo appealing.


well if they want to say Carr sucks, more power to them. I think hes alright, not great but not bad.

But its pretty obvious, at least to me, that Leinart wouldnt be able to do any better. and whats more, Leinart gets rattled easily and causes him to make mistakes- ie not good with a crap oline.

I was just telling Jerek why Leinart isnt considered as qb for us but VY is, and you go off on some wild tangent about people that hate carr.


recently it seems that the anti-vince people are just overly hostile and jump down anyones throat for no reason at all. All I ever see is complaints about people than want vince, rarely do these people even post threads anymore... its ridiculous that yall address people that arent even here.

Nighthawk
02-09-2006, 04:59 PM
This is the most telling part of the draft debate. No one has uttered a peep about former Rose Bowl champ and Heisman winner Matt Leinart, a guy who is projected by a substantial majority of scouts, analysts, and NFL executives to be as good a quarterback, if not better - as well as more immediately NFL-ready - than Vince.

NO ONE HAS SAID A WORD ABOUT LEINART ON THIS BOARD. Or any other QB (Cutler, etc.) for that matter.

For the slow witted amongst us, I will tell you why. It is because this is not about drafting a quarterback so much as it is finding a scapegoat (David Carr) and matching that perceived problem with a guy whom the UT fans and hometown guys really, really, desperately want to play for us.

It is fine to like Vince and fine to want to see him play for the Texans. I guess it just amazes me the lengths to which the Vince bandwagon will go to try to make a case for the guy. And yes, of course, I am a David Carr homer myself, so commence with ignoring the logical substance of what I have just said and keep firing away.

Edit: And of course, I should qualify that with "most of" the Vince bandwagon. There are several posters who want Vince and can make an articulate, even compelling case, for drafting him. They are the substantial minority, however, amongst a majority of "VINCE OR BUST CAUSE THIS CARR SUCKS!!!" type B.S.

Not asking entry into this debate, I nevertheless must take exception to your purported "most telling thing" about the Young/Bush/Carr debate.

There's a simple reason Leinart isn't on anyone's radar--he's not a hero. Instead, he's a routine NFL QB, run of the mill, sort of like Carr, maybe better, maybe worse, but not head and shoulders above Carr in the way Vince Young seems as if he will be.

That's why Leinart, and Cutler, for that matter, don't figure in the discussion.

And please stop using the tired-*** "majority of NFL scouts blah blah" argument. The majority of NFL scouts are followers of each other who echo the standard party line about every player. So there's talk about Bush being the best since Gale Sayers and suddenly ALL THE SCOUTS say he's the best since Gale Sayers.

Scouts are middle-management types, mostly, lemmings, ready to go off the cliff.

The reason there's such a hue and cry for Vince Young is that many people (and it doesn't have anything to do with UT, please) think that he's going to light up the NFL in a way that nobody's lit it up for years. He's the anti-parity QB, is the thought, he's Big Ben with really good wheels. He's Vick with size, the same speed, more power, and much better passing accuracy. He's Brett Favre in the win-it-any-way-you-can department.

And a lot more. I'm not certain (nobody is) that Vince Young will pay off as big as all that, but I AM CERTAIN that there is a reasonably good chance that he will. The downside seems VERY shallow. Even if he doesn't live up to the hype, the LEAST HE'LL TURN OUT TO BE is a serviceable NFL QB, and at that he'll be well ahead of David Carr.

Big B Texan Fan
02-09-2006, 05:11 PM
Jerek-
Nice dissection of my post.....NOT
Look, read between the lines and figure a few things out. The post dissection gets old. All your "uh, I don't get it" and "counter conjuncture" crap is for the classroom or the courtroom, not a MB where opinions are like (_______).

My comparison to the coaches switching was my equivilent to why noone in the VY corner is bringin' up Leinert. We already have a pocket passer, Carr has scramblin' ability but he's was not classified as a scramblin' QB when he came to the NFL. He has some wheels yet is is usually too late or too early when he decides to go. Kinda like not knowing how to drive. No pun intended.

And the bet, You or I won't just win $50. We have to leave the MB's. We never clarified for how long though. Forever? A season? What are ya thinkin'?

Please don't compare Young to Vick guys (infantrycak). That is like comparing Brad Johnson to Montana. One is good, while the other is great.

Sidebar-Did anyone hear about the rocket trade for bogut. He's injured!! I didn't know Casserly was giving trade advice to the rockets. Oh wait a minute, there's no validity to that accusation.....sorry jerek, will the MB faithful please strike that from the record, NFL (No Fun League).

infantrycak
02-09-2006, 05:23 PM
recently it seems that the anti-vince people are just overly hostile and jump down anyones throat for no reason at all. All I ever see is complaints about people than want vince, rarely do these people even post threads anymore... its ridiculous that yall address people that arent even here.

No what is going on recently is some folks have picked Bush as their favorite, others Young. For some reason many but not all Vince Young supporters feel the need to exagerate Carr's problems. On the flip side, many but not all Bush supporters feel the need to exagerate Young's potential problems. Now both sides in this unnecessary little tango are trying to pull martyr acts--help, help, I am being oppressed.

infantrycak
02-09-2006, 05:25 PM
Odd also how VY folks run headlong from any comparison to Vick if that (running ability) is what makes Young sooo appealing.

See Exhibit A

Please don't compare Young to Vick guys (infantrycak). That is like comparing Brad Johnson to Montana. One is good, while the other is great.

And the hyperbole just keeps on flowing.

Big B Texan Fan
02-09-2006, 05:37 PM
No what is going on recently is some folks have picked Bush as their favorite, others Young. For some reason many but not all Vince Young supporters feel the need to exagerate Carr's problems. On the flip side, many but not all Bush supporters feel the need to exagerate Young's potential problems. Now both sides in this unnecessary little tango are trying to pull martyr acts--help, help, I am being oppressed.
It's only because of what the Team has said lately, thats all

Big B Texan Fan
02-09-2006, 05:38 PM
See Exhibit A



And the hyperbole just keeps on flowing.
My bad, I realized it after I submitted that I psuedo compared VY to a current nfl great. Sorry guys.

michaelm
02-09-2006, 06:01 PM
and trade down people will look at the whole of the team in an objective manner.

Coach, I don't think I've ever responded to any of your posts, but I do think that yours tend to be objective and reasonable.
I do disagree with this statement as an absolute, however.
I think by definition the trade down group is more likely to be objective, but I'm sure there are quite a few people that are not.
For the most part, these people(the unobjective ones) may not be text book trade down people as much as anti both VY and RB.
Then there may those that are really just DBrick people, and trading down is a means to an end.
I'm sure that I'm splitting hairs here, but I just can't wrap my mind around the concept that any one faction on this MB is completely objective... or capable(as a whole) of looking at the team in a 100% objective manner.

AustinJB
02-09-2006, 06:51 PM
If this draft is really about fixing the QB position, then

Why haven't we heard a word on this entire board about drafting any other QB besides Vince Young, when it is widely and accurately reported that many scouting departments feel Leinart is as good as if not better than, and more NFL-ready than Young?

Leinart won the Heisman and the National Championship last year. He put together a pretty damned good year this year too, and his team came up a whole three points shy of beating your hero's team. Would think that deserves at least a little mention, don't you?

Or is it because David Carr makes a great scapegoat, and too conveniently, happens to play the position that you would give anything to see your newfound Longhorn hero playing for us this fall?

Hmmmm :spy:

Hmmmmmmmmmmm...you always seem to ignore posts that actually give reasons why people feel the way they do. Who CARES what is widely reported by many scouting reports, etc. Ever thought that maybe people form an opinion on their own.

I also love how you like to use awards and accomplishments (Leinart won Heisman and NC last yr) to try to make your points. But if someone else uses VY's accomplishments as a valid reason of why they like him, you discount it b/c "that doesn't translate to the NFL.":brickwall Give me a break! That seems a little hypocritical to me:confused:

You seemed to ignore my previous post about why I'm not overly impressed w/ Leinart. I seem to think he's a product of the system and, quite frankly, think he'll be an average NFL QB. I've seen him make plenty of inaccurate throws, but VY is the one that gets bashed for being inaccurate. Both of their comp% were comparable. Does this mean that they are both inaccurate passers <OR> that they are both accurate passers? You can't have it both ways.

Judging by the level of competition that each faced, I tend to be far more impressed w/ VY's numbers than w/ Leinart's (and that's not even taking into account that VY has wheels.) Also, Leinart does not show the poise that VY does. When Leinart was pressured, he became inaccurate. Not VY...he just made the defense pay....either by throwing the ball or by scrambling for a first down. That would be the same no matter where VY calls home.:ok:

chuckm
02-09-2006, 06:52 PM
This is how bad this is getting:
I realized that I did leave you out while I was away from the computer. Pretty sad huh.


it's the thought that counts .....

TreWardTxn
02-09-2006, 07:12 PM
Nice post. My question is this: If VY went to any school outside of Texas, would people be this enamored with VY? I personally don't think so.

If any other player (mostly QB tho) had participated in a high school game which gained mythical status and went on to win the National Championship (at a major program), in legendary fashion I think this board would light up with request to get the guy. Oh, it might help if the guy had a skill set and accomplishments at his position that had never before been witnessed in history and it would also be a good thing for his own college coach to admit that he had very little to do with the success and the best decision he ever made was to get out of said player's way and let him lead (or somethin in the way of that).
The question should be, how do you not clamor to have a player like that on your favorite team? The answer? So that you don't seem like a bandwaggoner. Believe me, I completly understand; I root for the underdog, I despised all the NFL dynasties of the last 20 years (Niners, Cowboys, Patriots). I don't even like QBs all that much, because except for a select few, they have all been overblown out of proportion...That said, I have come realize how great those NFL dynasties were and their players too, no matter how lucky I thought they are/were (Emmitt, Brady), and I honestly believe that, with time, we will come to appreciate the QB's great ability for what it is, and hopefully, not have to regret that we were unable to truly enjoy it...

AustinJB
02-09-2006, 07:17 PM
And I do think that VY is the best QB in this draft. I've never really been impressed w/ Leinart. I've seen Leinart make just as many bad passes, if not more, than VY. VY gets a bad rep just b/c of his side-arm motion and the fact that he has better wheels than Leinart.

The top five PASS DEFENSES that Leinart faced (not counting the Rose Bowl) are ranked like this: 31st, 45th, 68th, 72nd, and 77th.
VY's are ranked as: 15th, 23rd, 43rd, 53rd, and 56th.

Against TOTAL DEFENSE rank, it goes like this.....
Leinart: 34th, 38th, 44th, 46th, and 75th
VY: 5th, 11th, 13th, 30th, and 41st

Based upon their numbers and the level of competition they faced, I think VY is better. If you don't, that is fine, but I have the stats to back up my belief.:ok:

Jerek.....Maybe this is why people aren't mentioning Leinart instead of VY.

travfrancis
02-09-2006, 08:15 PM
you left me out ... I'm funny ... ask anyone ... go ahead, I dare you

yeah you are pretty funny... or atleast your cute little equation in your signature is.

let me ask you this, what happens if Carr's leadership is a decimal? that would make vy > carr according to you equation.

VY's talent and leadership = 1 / DC's talent and leadership
1/.5 = 2

jerek
02-09-2006, 09:46 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmm...you always seem to ignore posts that actually give reasons why people feel the way they do. Who CARES what is widely reported by many scouting reports, etc. Ever thought that maybe people form an opinion on their own.

I also love how you like to use awards and accomplishments (Leinart won Heisman and NC last yr) to try to make your points. But if someone else uses VY's accomplishments as a valid reason of why they like him, you discount it b/c "that doesn't translate to the NFL.":brickwall Give me a break! That seems a little hypocritical to me:confused:

You seemed to ignore my previous post about why I'm not overly impressed w/ Leinart. I seem to think he's a product of the system and, quite frankly, think he'll be an average NFL QB. I've seen him make plenty of inaccurate throws, but VY is the one that gets bashed for being inaccurate. Both of their comp% were comparable. Does this mean that they are both inaccurate passers <OR> that they are both accurate passers? You can't have it both ways.

Judging by the level of competition that each faced, I tend to be far more impressed w/ VY's numbers than w/ Leinart's (and that's not even taking into account that VY has wheels.) Also, Leinart does not show the poise that VY does. When Leinart was pressured, he became inaccurate. Not VY...he just made the defense pay....either by throwing the ball or by scrambling for a first down. That would be the same no matter where VY calls home.:ok:

I am running out of time for this, but Austin, you seem like you are trying, so maybe I can help.

Hypocritical? No. I'm not the one saying draft a QB. The draft-Vince crowd were very few and far between until he won the Rose Bowl, and a big part of that is the fact that he won the game, as you see reflected in countless lines of rhetoric like: "Vince is a winner," "Vince is a champion," bla bla. Leinart was last year's champion and last year's Heisman winner, and yet his name doesn't show up anywhere on this board. He put together a very solid senior season against reasonably like competition, and his team came up a whole steenkin three points shy of beating Vince's in the championship.

Taken as a whole, their college careers were very comparable, so if you believe Vince is somehow head and shoulders above Leinart, that is your right to believe it, but I don't. At least, unlike many others, you have provided a statistical measure to back your assertion.

I am not sure where you are getting these rankings or what you are basing them on. They seem vague. Regardless, I am going to assume that they are some correct measure of statistical worth, and to that I say, that is fine, even if Vince was the better QB by these numbers, he was not dominatingly the best QB.

Moving along, since objectivity is a lost art around these parts, I point to the majority/plethora of scouts, analysts, etc. who claim that Leinart is the best QB at this moment in time. Not good enough for guys like Big B Texan, who effectively calls them all *****s but who will himself happily parrot the words of someone - anyone - outside of this board who makes a case (or more often, a quote taken out of context) in favor of drafting Young, and he and his Young bretheren slurp down every word.

And Big B, if my words are too "English class like" for you, I can dumb it down for you in the future. I'll leave it at that before I get banned. Try to write something with some substance, so guys like AustinJB who take a minute to research a post don't misinterpret my words as lumping them in with the ranters on this board.

And I dissect your posts in an attempt to demonstrate them for the train wreck of logic that they are ... seems to communicate more in the way of a point than "I'm right, you're wrong" mudflinging.

thunderkyss
02-09-2006, 09:48 PM
Another thing about these "Experts"

Ryan Leaf, Drew Brees, Joey Harrington(there really is a big list...)

Tom Brady, Jake Delhomme, Ben Rothlisberger, Kurt Warner... this list goes on, and on, and on, and on...

What really get's me, about all the Kool-aid drinkers, is that every body else get's the blame. The line, has no talent........... not one undrafted player on the line.... The recievers can't catch...... the OL coach doesn't have a clue, Capers doesn't have a clue... etc... etc... etc... lots of blame to go around, but one guy seems spotless......

You know, sometimes you've got to wonder why the O was dumbed down... Why Carr was only given one option, Why Carr was on a short leash..... Maybe Capers knew something we don't......

I always thought it was odd, that Capers wouldn't let Carr air it out, knowing it would save his job.

thunderkyss
02-09-2006, 10:02 PM
I am running out of time for this, but Austin, you seem like you are trying, so maybe I can help.

Hypocritical? No. I'm not the one saying draft a QB. The draft-Vince crowd were very few and far between until he won the Rose Bowl, and a big part of that is the fact that he won the game, as you see reflected in countless lines of rhetoric like: "Vince is a winner," "Vince is a champion," bla bla. Leinart was last year's champion and last year's Heisman winner, and yet his name doesn't show up anywhere on this board. He put together a very solid senior season against reasonably like competition, and his team came up a whole steenkin three points shy of beating Vince's in the championship.

Taken as a whole, their college careers were very comparable, so if you believe Vince is somehow head and shoulders above Leinart, that is your right to believe it, but I don't. At least, unlike many others, you have provided a statistical measure to back your assertion.

I am not sure where you are getting these rankings or what you are basing them on. They seem vague. Regardless, I am going to assume that they are some correct measure of statistical worth, and to that I say, that is fine, even if Vince was the better QB by these numbers, he was not dominatingly the best QB.

Moving along, since objectivity is a lost art around these parts, I point to the majority/plethora of scouts, analysts, etc. who claim that Leinart is the best QB at this moment in time. Not good enough for guys like Big B Texan, who effectively calls them all *****s but who will himself happily parrot the words of someone - anyone - outside of this board who makes a case (or more often, a quote taken out of context) in favor of drafting Young, and he and his Young bretheren slurp down every word.

And Big B, if my words are too "English class like" for you, I can dumb it down for you in the future. I'll leave it at that before I get banned. Try to write something with some substance, so guys like AustinJB who take a minute to research a post don't misinterpret my words as lumping them in with the ranters on this board.

And I dissect your posts in an attempt to demonstrate them for the train wreck of logic that they are ... seems to communicate more in the way of a point than "I'm right, you're wrong" mudflinging.


If the Texans.... I mean if Texas would've lost that game, Vince would've gone back to college, and his fan base.... his legend would've grown. You think this Reggie talk all year was bad, it would've been worse. People would still consider Vince the real Heisman Winner. Next year, we'd be 3-13, or 13-3, still, either way, we'd be saying........... Dang...... if only he came out last year.

Personally, I was hoping Vince would make himself eligible for this draft, when you guys were screaming Reggie Bowl.

To me, David Carr is the perfect Quarterback for the Texans. Just like Quincy was perfect for the Cowboys. Talented, mobile, and exciting enough, to keep the fans interested, and happy..... that is until that special QB comes along, and we don't have to give up an arm and a leg to get him. Well, that QB is Vince... Matt's good, but he ain't no Peyton........ not even close, I don't care how NFL ready he is.

Vince, is McNabb, Montana, Bret Favre all rolled into one.

Now, I know some of you hate when we project what we think Vince is going to do in the NFL....... especially, when we say it like it's a fore gone conclussion........

so I'll say it again.

Vince iis McNabb, Montana, & Bret Favre all rolled into one.

AustinJB
02-09-2006, 10:34 PM
I am not sure where you are getting these rankings or what you are basing them on. They seem vague. Regardless, I am going to assume that they are some correct measure of statistical worth, and to that I say, that is fine, even if Vince was the better QB by these numbers, he was not dominatingly the best QB.

I know that you weren't necessarily doubting my statistics, :rolleyes: but I wanted to give you a link just so you or anyone else can see for themselves if ya'll want to.:)

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?div=4&site=org

It's not only these statistics that make me think VY was dominatingly the best QB. It's more so what I witnessed every time he took the field. The majority of the time he was outstanding and dominated the game one way or another.

He dominated in different ways. It wasn't only the games like Colorado where he went 25 of 29 for 335 yds for 2 TDs; it wasn't only the games like Oklahoma St. were he had 506 total yds for 4 TD; it was also the games like OU and TxTech were he managed the game and put his teammates in position to make plays. Not to mention the much-aligned leadership qualities that gave the team complete confidence and the "we-can't-lose" attitude. These are the reasons I feel like VY is the best QB.

However, these views are objective and MO.....so I try to give stats to show what I already feel like I know. The stats are also in response to one of the main arguments that I always hear about VY ("he played against weak pass defenses.") When in reality, between the two, Leinart was the one who played against the weaker pass defenses. Not to mention that Leinart wasn't the main focus for opposing defenses....Bush was. VY was the main focus for every opposing defense he faced including USC (which was supposedly a good defense until VY ripped it apart....ESPN claimed for weeks that they weren't good statisticly but led the nation in turnovers.)

Anyway, IMO he was the best QB. I would love for VY to be the Texans QB. He brings so much to the table. His attitude and confidence are something that we are lacking. Not to mention that I know he would work his @$$ off to improve in any way that the coaching deemed necessary. I would NEVER hope that Leinart is my QB. I'd rather have Carr (and that's not saying much at this point.):stirpot:

texarg
02-09-2006, 10:40 PM
"Vince, is McNabb, Montana, Bret Favre all rolled into one."
interesting but...

McNabb pick 2, Favre 33, Montana 82...
McNabb 0 SB, Favre 1, Montana 4...

maybe we should take a QB in a late round (4 or higher) and Bush with the firts...just an stadistics tough.

Iceman
02-10-2006, 07:30 AM
Texans should just resign Jonathan Wells at RB, draft Vince and make him a WR opposite Andre Johnson. It's a thought..........:superman:



In all honesty, I don't think Kubiak can go wrong with either guy and both bring certain things to the table for our Texans. Reggie makes alot of sense due to the wear and tear on Dom Davis' knees. He's already started a trend by missing games in the past 2 seasons. That has to be raising a flag somewhere in the organization. It is with me.


The thing with me about Vince is his speed and play making abilities. Will his speed work in the NFL? There is tons of speed on every team but will Vince's be any different from the next speedster? He's a playmaker, no doubt, but he won't be eluding tackles like he did in the Championship game. USC just couldn't tackle him. Putting him at WR opposite AJ looks to be a viable option...........he just won't touch the ball as much as DC.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 07:41 AM
"Vince, is McNabb, Montana, Bret Favre all rolled into one."
interesting but...

McNabb pick 2, Favre 33, Montana 82...
McNabb 0 SB, Favre 1, Montana 4...

maybe we should take a QB in a late round (4 or higher) and Bush with the firts...just an stadistics tough.


if you use the trigonomic function to extract the cosine of the square root of those numbers, mutliplied by each players carrer points, wins, and completion percentage..... it will equal #1 overall.

texarg
02-10-2006, 08:16 AM
i did it, and the answer was : never take a QB with the first!...ok i dont like mathematics and maybe its not the correct answer...

but all i say is what stadistics shows : "only" elway and aikman formers QBs picks "1" won a SB...neither montana (#82), favre (#33) or even brady (# 199 overall!!!) was top prospect in their drafts and have GREATS carrers.

if VY became a Texans would be great, he is a great player (no doubt), but its a huge risk take a QB with nr. 1, give him a huge contract and...and we already know whats happens, DC was former nr. 1 , top prospect bla bla bla...and here we are again: with the 1st = the worst team in the league.
We allready have a decent Qb, build something good around him a make a "winner team" not just a winner Qb.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 08:45 AM
i did it, and the answer was : never take a QB with the first!...ok i dont like mathematics and maybe its not the correct answer...

but all i say is what stadistics shows : "only" elway and aikman formers QBs picks "1" won a SB...neither montana (#82), favre (#33) or even brady (# 199 overall!!!) was top prospect in their drafts and have GREATS carrers.

if VY became a Texans would be great, he is a great player (no doubt), but its a huge risk take a QB with nr. 1, give him a huge contract and...and we already know whats happens, DC was former nr. 1 , top prospect bla bla bla...and here we are again: with the 1st = the worst team in the league.
We allready have a decent Qb, build something good around him a make a "winner team" not just a winner Qb.

As long as your idea doesn't include drafting Bush, I'm with you.

jerek
02-10-2006, 09:11 AM
I know that you weren't necessarily doubting my statistics, :rolleyes: but I wanted to give you a link just so you or anyone else can see for themselves if ya'll want to.:)

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?div=4&site=org

It's not only these statistics that make me think VY was dominatingly the best QB. It's more so what I witnessed every time he took the field. The majority of the time he was outstanding and dominated the game one way or another.

He dominated in different ways. It wasn't only the games like Colorado where he went 25 of 29 for 335 yds for 2 TDs; it wasn't only the games like Oklahoma St. were he had 506 total yds for 4 TD; it was also the games like OU and TxTech were he managed the game and put his teammates in position to make plays. Not to mention the much-aligned leadership qualities that gave the team complete confidence and the "we-can't-lose" attitude. These are the reasons I feel like VY is the best QB.

However, these views are objective and MO.....so I try to give stats to show what I already feel like I know. The stats are also in response to one of the main arguments that I always hear about VY ("he played against weak pass defenses.") When in reality, between the two, Leinart was the one who played against the weaker pass defenses. Not to mention that Leinart wasn't the main focus for opposing defenses....Bush was. VY was the main focus for every opposing defense he faced including USC (which was supposedly a good defense until VY ripped it apart....ESPN claimed for weeks that they weren't good statisticly but led the nation in turnovers.)

Anyway, IMO he was the best QB. I would love for VY to be the Texans QB. He brings so much to the table. His attitude and confidence are something that we are lacking. Not to mention that I know he would work his @$$ off to improve in any way that the coaching deemed necessary. I would NEVER hope that Leinart is my QB. I'd rather have Carr (and that's not saying much at this point.):stirpot:

I appreciate that, and this is the thing. If, say, Brad Banks was our starting QB, I would say, bring on Vince. Hot damn, we scored the #1 pick and Vince is coming out: he may not be "NFL ready" and he may take a year or even two to really get in the game, but here is a guy with talent and apparently a work ethic to spare, got the hometown story to boot, and we can grab him in this year's draft. Sure, he built his highlight reels against weak college competition, sure we don't know how he'll adapt to the pro game, but come on, our starter is terrible, and we can get Vince! I would be all about it.

My trouble is, I still feel DC is a good quarterback, I would daresay can be a better NFL quarterback than Vince. I watch the guy's games (all of them) and honestly feel that he has got it in him to take this franchise a long way. If others don't share that opinion (and that is, unfortunately, what it boils down to: a lot of opinion, albeit built on certain facts, but still opinion, at this point). We are bringing on Kubiak, we have an exciting offseason with a lot of opportunity for building to look forward to, and we still have Carr, who has, for occassional lack of production, shown us a lot of promise (I know, nothing you haven't heard before.)

Worse, we either cut him and completely lose out on that, or we re-sign him and, if we trade him, we piss away all of that bonus money and get a whole lot of not much for trading a guy who is still regarded more or less as a fourth-year rookie.

So that of course yields the ultimate question: does Carr's potential make him worth retaining, worth using this year's first round to build around him, or do we cut him and very much essentially "start over?" Say what you want about Vince, but you do not want to throw this guy into his very first NFL game as a starter, and you and everyone else on this board knows this. Even if you take the view that Carr will only be an average QB at best, plenty of teams have done very well and even won Super Bowls with average QBs. Drafting Vince comes at the opportunity cost of having at least two first round picks for that number one, and that additional pick (assuming of course, used wisely) could be yet another difference maker on defense or elsewhere across the board. Good, well balanced teams win Super Bowls a hell of a lot more often that superstars - even superstar "leaders" which I believe you and others erroneously believe Vince will be the moment he steps on an NFL field - and even if I felt DC was going to be an average QB at best, well I believe we now have the coaching staff that can utilize that average QB and build through the rest of the draft/FA to get the job done.

My answer is: keep Carr. Still, I understand and very much allow for the difference in opinion, and I can appreciate it when a poster such as yourself can make their case, even if we only agree to disagree in the end.

texarg
02-10-2006, 09:21 AM
I appreciate that, and this is the thing. If, say, Brad Banks was our starting QB, I would say, bring on Vince. Hot damn, we scored the #1 pick and Vince is coming out: he may not be "NFL ready" and he may take a year or even two to really get in the game, but here is a guy with talent and apparently a work ethic to spare, got the hometown story to boot, and we can grab him in this year's draft. Sure, he built his highlight reels against weak college competition, sure we don't know how he'll adapt to the pro game, but come on, our starter is terrible, and we can get Vince! I would be all about it.

My trouble is, I still feel DC is a good quarterback, I would daresay can be a better NFL quarterback than Vince. I watch the guy's games (all of them) and honestly feel that he has got it in him to take this franchise a long way. If others don't share that opinion (and that is, unfortunately, what it boils down to: a lot of opinion, albeit built on certain facts, but still opinion, at this point). We are bringing on Kubiak, we have an exciting offseason with a lot of opportunity for building to look forward to, and we still have Carr, who has, for occassional lack of production, shown us a lot of promise (I know, nothing you haven't heard before.)

Worse, we either cut him and completely lose out on that, or we re-sign him and, if we trade him, we piss away all of that bonus money and get a whole lot of not much for trading a guy who is still regarded more or less as a fourth-year rookie.

So that of course yields the ultimate question: does Carr's potential make him worth retaining, worth using this year's first round to build around him, or do we cut him and very much essentially "start over?" Say what you want about Vince, but you do not want to throw this guy into his very first NFL game as a starter, and you and everyone else on this board knows this.

My answer is: keep Carr. Still, I understand and very much allow for the difference in opinion, and I can appreciate it when a poster such as yourself can make their case, even if we only agree to disagree in the end.


100 % agree!
and i think if VY was from any other city/place/univ this will never been a thread (DC vs VY)

chuckm
02-10-2006, 09:33 AM
let me ask you this, what happens if Carr's leadership is a decimal? that would make vy > carr according to you equation.

VY's talent and leadership = 1 / DC's talent and leadership
1/.5 = 2


you are correct sir ...... my signature comes from the deep and dark recesses of a mind that was subjected to 4 years of mathematical he$$ in college. It's a poor attempt to reduce the plethora of RB/VY/DC posts to an equation ...


if you're a VY lover then ....

VY's talent and leadership tends toward infinity and thus Carr's talent and leadership tends toward zero



if you're a Carr lover then ....

Carr's talent and leadership tends toward infinity and thus VY's talent and leadership tends toward zero




I'm still working on an equation for all the other possibilities ...

texarg
02-10-2006, 10:50 AM
As long as your idea doesn't include drafting Bush, I'm with you.


I woluld like to agree with you, but sorry: yes my idea include drafting bush. he can improve our running game from his firts start or at least he´ll take some atention off DC and the passing game.

Runner
02-10-2006, 12:31 PM
you are correct sir ...... my signature comes from the deep and dark recesses of a mind that was subjected to 4 years of mathematical he$$ in college. It's a poor attempt to reduce the plethora of RB/VY/DC posts to an equation ...


if you're a VY lover then ....

VY's talent and leadership tends toward infinity and thus Carr's talent and leadership tends toward zero



if you're a Carr lover then ....

Carr's talent and leadership tends toward infinity and thus VY's talent and leadership tends toward zero




I'm still working on an equation for all the other possibilities ...

You can say inversely proportional. We know what it means. :)

Joe Texan
02-10-2006, 12:47 PM
[QUOTE][He is very immature by NFL standards.
/QUOTE]

I guess dancing is worse than tossing helmets and throwing tempertantrums.

I only see NFL players dancing when they score.

I see the deer in headlights throwing helmets and tempertantrums, Whats more immature?

David has Potential, and so does Vince. David is 4 years into his potential though, so I guess he has 4 to 6 more years or less if he gets shelacked while looking into the headlights. I believe this means we dump Ragone, Banks, Buchannon, and any other nobody and take Vince as a competetive bump to Davids Ego. He knows he has no competition so its easy street for a QB who alienates his team after every game and every practice.
If Toro Tucks his tale this season like last season then we will need more than Vince and Reggie combined to right the sinking ship.

jerek
02-10-2006, 12:51 PM
[quote][He is very immature by NFL standards.
/QUOTE]

I guess dancing is worse than tossing helmets and throwing tempertantrums.

I only see NFL players dancing when they score.

I see the deer in headlights throwing helmets and tempertantrums, Whats more immature?

David has Potential, and so does Vince. David is 4 years into his potential though, so I guess he has 4 to 6 more years or less if he gets shelacked while looking into the headlights. I believe this means we dump Ragone, Banks, Buchannon, and any other nobody and take Vince as a competetive bump to Davids Ego. He knows he has no competition so its easy street for a QB who alienates his team after every game and every practice.
If Toro Tucks his tale this season like last season then we will need more than Vince and Reggie combined to right the sinking ship.

Not another post-practice-habits omniscient again???

Got a source, or have you been talking to Miss Cleo and Vince's grandma again?

Joe Texan
02-12-2006, 07:24 PM
Did not need miss cleo to see David and his tempertantrums. I sure hope Gary puts an end to this and makes David gain the trust of his team again. I have heard that some very important pieces to the offensive puzzle have lost faith in thier so called Leader. It appears to me that the Carr Flu is a pandemic, There is no cure as of yet but we've just agreed to spend another 24 million for further reasearch.

I would have full faith in the front office with out the spewing of CC.

It appears that CC is just a puppet though and Dan and Gary are pulling the strings.

Big B Texan Fan
02-12-2006, 08:14 PM
Did not need miss cleo to see David and his tempertantrums. I sure hope Gary puts an end to this and makes David gain the trust of his team again. I have heard that some very important pieces to the offensive puzzle have lost faith in thier so called Leader. It appears to me that the Carr Flu is a pandemic, There is no cure as of yet but we've just agreed to spend another 24 million for further reasearch.

I would have full faith in the front office with out the spewing of CC.

It appears that CC is just a puppet though and Dan and Gary are pulling the strings.
You are Joe Texan, that's what you do. :fans:

Big B Texan Fan
02-12-2006, 08:16 PM
Chechk this out:

http://media.putfile.com/Vince-Best-Damn