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Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 09:15 AM
http://houstontexans.com/team/front_office_detail.php?PRKey=97

This is our Director of Negotiations. Seeing his background I would assume that he is at the table with Cass and the player reps to hammer out contracts. If that is the case this guy is a big part of the problem.

Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 09:18 AM
http://houstontexans.com/team/front_office_detail.php?PRKey=86

Another problem when you look at all of our acquisitions through Free Agency. Most notable are - PBuch, Wade, Greenwood, Bradford, Boselli, McKinney, Riley...

66cobra
02-02-2006, 09:25 AM
to be fair Kaiser, PBuch was acquired in a trade, not free agency, and Boselli was picked in the expansion draft. But I get your point about the others- we have a lousy track record when it comes to free agents.

Texans_Chick
02-02-2006, 09:28 AM
I don't like to speculate on things that I don't actually have information about. (Strange, I know. :) ) As who's to blame and who's driving the bus with various transactions.

All I know is that player's careers are finite, and if given a choice between going to a winning team, or an established team, or an expansion team, most players are not going to want to play for an expansion team, unless they get paid big time or are from this part of the world and are still getting paid.

We are still a baby team. We haven't put together a winning season yet. The average NFL career is a little over 3 years. There are no guaranteed contracts and an injury can end everything.

In other words, we are not the most attractive city for free agents to go to. We have some things going for us, but for a while, we are going to have to overpay our free agents and some free agents will have no interest in the Texans at all. It is our reality.

So, I have no opinion about how those gentlemen are doing in their jobs other than to wish them well.

chuckm
02-02-2006, 09:29 AM
I don't like to speculate on things that I don't actually have information about. (Strange, I know. :) ) As who's to blame and who's driving the bus with various transactions.

All I know is that player's careers are finite, and if given a choice between going to a winning team, or an established team, or an expansion team, most players are not going to want to play for an expansion team, unless they get paid big time or are from this part of the world and are still getting paid.

We are still a baby team. We haven't put together a winning season yet. The average NFL career is a little over 3 years. There are no guaranteed contracts and an injury can end everything.

In other words, we are not the most attractive city for free agents to go to. We have some things going for us, but for a while, we are going to have to overpay our free agents and some free agents will have no interest in the Texans at all. It is our reality.

So, I have no opinion about how those gentlemen are doing in their jobs other than to wish them well.


what she said

Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 09:36 AM
to be fair Kaiser, PBuch was acquired in a trade, not free agency, and Boselli was picked in the expansion draft. But I get your point about the others- we have a lousy track record when it comes to free agents.

To be fair these two gentleman are there to manage cap and pro scouting. These are two areas that we hit Cass on hard. Our cap situation is not awful, but the way we have spent money and evalutaed players has been below average. If anyone is going to have conversations on how inept Cass is then we have to get granular and root out the problems within operations.

Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 09:45 AM
I don't like to speculate on things that I don't actually have information about. (Strange, I know. :) ) As who's to blame and who's driving the bus with various transactions.

All I know is that player's careers are finite, and if given a choice between going to a winning team, or an established team, or an expansion team, most players are not going to want to play for an expansion team, unless they get paid big time or are from this part of the world and are still getting paid.

We are still a baby team. We haven't put together a winning season yet. The average NFL career is a little over 3 years. There are no guaranteed contracts and an injury can end everything.

In other words, we are not the most attractive city for free agents to go to. We have some things going for us, but for a while, we are going to have to overpay our free agents and some free agents will have no interest in the Texans at all. It is our reality.

So, I have no opinion about how those gentlemen are doing in their jobs other than to wish them well.

I will have to respectfully diagree. We are not a baby team any longer. We have as many dollars to spend as any other team in the NFL, it is how we choose to spend that money and what type of return investment we get. Purchasing and evaluating has not been a strength.

I have never heard of Houston not being an attractive destination for FA's in any of the major sports. In fact it has been too often for superstars who are at the sunset of their careers.

Yes these two gentlemen are not sexy names and not in the spotlight, as they are not want to do, but the more you read these boards on where the direction of this team has been and is going it is quite evident that their stamp is on every player that we and our new coaches have question marks on.

Spoda
02-02-2006, 10:03 AM
well if we draft vnce he will take over all negotiations and player signings along with the draft..so no worries

Texans_Chick
02-02-2006, 10:06 AM
I will have to respectfully diagree. We are not a baby team any longer. We have as many dollars to spend as any other team in the NFL, it is how we choose to spend that money and what type of return investment we get. Purchasing and evaluating has not been a strength.

I have never heard of Houston not being an attractive destination for FA's in any of the major sports. In fact it has been too often for superstars who are at the sunset of their careers.

Houston is a great city. There are a lot of reasons why people would want to live here. And it is a place where many athletes live, even when they don't play here, because of the no state income tax thing and relatively cheap housing.

That being said, how can you claim we are no longer a baby team? Of course, the fans expectations can be higher than 2002, but to the rest of the world, the Texans are still a non-winning team, who has the invisible offensive line in the ESPN ads, and was the punchline of countless jokes last season--not only a bad team, but a team that was bad but to add insult to injury, was accused of throwing games. There are terrible towels older than our franchise. Our fanbase is puny compared to other teams. We have little tradition.

I spoke to a player who came from another team, and he was comparing the Texans event functions to the functions from the team he came from, and in so many words, said that ours were a fraction of the size of his old team.

Heard another FA player talk about how he used to be recognized all the time in his old city, but that it rarely happens in Houston.

If a free agent is coming to Houston, it is because they are getting paid. Paid more than what a successful, more established team is paying them. Period. That is our reality right now.

Maybe Kubiak's hire can persuade some free agents to come here and to hope that their finite career won't be wasted playing for some small fan base, non-winning, punchline team. I know that is harsh, but it is our reality until we win and become a more popular team.

But basically, in the short term, we should expect our best players to be from the draft or who have ties to the Houston area. As it is, most of our best players are home grown or came from the expansion draft where the players didn't have a choice in the matter.

But all I know is if I were a probowl free agent who had no ties to the area, I would have no interest in coming to Houston unless they paid me way more than anyplace else.

:(

Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 10:23 AM
Houston is a great city. There are a lot of reasons why people would want to live here. And it is a place where many athletes live, even when they don't player here, because of the no state income tax thing and relatively cheap housing.

That being said, how can you claim we are no longer a baby team? Of course, the fans expectations can be higher than 2002, but to the rest of the world, the Texans are still a non-winning team, who has the invisible offensive line in the ESPN ads, and was the punchline of countless jokes last season--not only a bad team, but a team that was bad but to add insult to injury, was accused of throwing games. There are terrible towels older than our franchise. Our fanbase is puny compared to other teams. We have little tradition.

I spoke to a player who came from another team, and he was comparing the Texans event functions to the functions from the team he came from, and in so many words, said that ours were a fraction of the size of his old team.

Heard another FA player talk about how he used to be recognized all the time in his old city, but that it rarely happens in Houston.

If a free agent is coming to Houston, it is because they are getting paid. Paid more than what a successful, more established team is paying them. Period. That is our reality right now.

Maybe Kubiak's hire can persuade some free agents to come here and to hope that their finite career won't be wasted playing for some small fan base, non-winning, punchline team. I know that is harsh, but it is our reality until we win and become a more popular team.

But basically, in the short term, we should expect our best players to be from the draft or who have ties to the Houston area. As it is, most of our best players are home grown or came from the expansion draft where the players didn't have a choice in the matter.

But all I know is if I were a probowl free agent who had no ties to the area, I would have no interest in coming to Houston unless they paid me way more than anyplace else.

:(

I agree or am sensitive to everything you said, and in my own twisted way I believe thorugh this post you do agree with the assertion that started this thread. The things that other FA's have told you or that your heard about are staff tweaks not city tweaks. The city does not organize the function, the staff does. I contest that our operations/marketing people are not helping.

There are countless people who choose to train here that do not live or play here, why is that? We are baby team from a tradition stand point in the Houston Texans sense not NFL, but other than that there is no reason why we cannot win like the Ravens did five years into their existence. Kubiak is a great start in beginning a Texans tradition and speaking to all that Houston has to offer and have confidence that he will be build a winning tradition. It is the suits that are in the shadows that are not pulling their weight in my opinion.

Your last statement, in my opinion, is true due to who are higher paid players are. I truly believe that not many people want to play for a team that looks at how our cap is being spent and do not want to be a part of it.

Sarg01
02-02-2006, 10:27 AM
http://houstontexans.com/team/front_office_detail.php?PRKey=97

This is our Director of Negotiations. Seeing his background I would assume that he is at the table with Cass and the player reps to hammer out contracts. If that is the case this guy is a big part of the problem.

The Negotiations guy's job isn't to match pay to talent. It's to influence in a generally downward direction the pay and cap implications for a player that the scouting people and GM have identified as someone to bring on board. He's not responsible for figuring out how constructive a Gary Walker or Morlon Greenwood will be.

The Texans are in good cap shape, despite our paying people more than they are worth. I don't think we have any way of knowing if the guy's good, since we don't have any way of knowing what the overpaid players wanted coming into the negotiations.

cadahnic
02-02-2006, 10:34 AM
Kaiser I agree with you on this one and am sensitive to what Texans_Chick is trying to say. Bottomline our contract guys have overpaid when they could shoot lower than they do. What we do have is an attractive organization and till this year we were a team on the rise. We likely do need to improve our marketing to potential FAs and show them a bit better of a time, but that is another department not discussed really in the start of this thread.

Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 10:40 AM
The Negotiations guy's job isn't to match pay to talent. It's to influence in a generally downward direction the pay and cap implications for a player that the scouting people and GM have identified as someone to bring on board. He's not responsible for figuring out how constructive a Gary Walker or Morlon Greenwood will be.

The Texans are in good cap shape, despite our paying people more than they are worth. I don't think we have any way of knowing if the guy's good, since we don't have any way of knowing what the overpaid players wanted coming into the negotiations.

The job of a negotiator is to go in and get the team's perceived value of a player based upon their evaluation as well as what the market will bear. The evaulations have not been good, but the term and dollars thrown around are up to the negotiator to find out what the value of that player is within the market. If you do not think we overpaid market value before we signed Wade and Greenwood then you will not find many who share that opinion.

We are in good cap shape until next year, given we resign DC and draft Bush.

LBC_Justin
02-02-2006, 10:49 AM
I will have to respectfully diagree. We are not a baby team any longer. We have as many dollars to spend as any other team in the NFL, it is how we choose to spend that money and what type of return investment we get. Purchasing and evaluating has not been a strength.

I have never heard of Houston not being an attractive destination for FA's in any of the major sports. In fact it has been too often for superstars who are at the sunset of their careers.

Yes these two gentlemen are not sexy names and not in the spotlight, as they are not want to do, but the more you read these boards on where the direction of this team has been and is going it is quite evident that their stamp is on every player that we and our new coaches have question marks on.
wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong
Houston has been a long time popular destination in Basketball. In the mid-90s lots of guys took paycuts to pay for our team. The last few years many players have had the Rockets high on their list of teams they would like to play for. Astros have never had trouble attacting good players in Free Agency. Guys love to play in Houston because of the no state income tax thing.

When it comes to football, I don't think you understand what Dan Ferens the Director of Negotiations actually does. He doesn't evaluate talent. He doesn't say "this guy isn't very good, so he doesn't deserve very much money." Our scouting department and personell department tells him how much a guy is worth, then it is his job to get creative and structure the deal so it is cap friendly and doesn't break the bank. If the players don't perform up to their potential, gets hurt, or just plain sucks you blame the coach or the scouts or the personnel guys, not the negotations guy.

The guy spent YEARS in Pittsburgh. I don't know how much you know about the Steelers but they are notorious for under paying players and getting the "Steelers' Discount". So this guy knows what he is doing and he is doing just fine considering the situation.

I leave you with one question:
How many player in the NFL grew up dreaming of one day playing for the Houston Texans?

That will change, but it is going to take time and some winning seasons. Believe it or not it makes a big difference, as money isn't everyting.

Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 10:55 AM
wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong
Houston has been a long time popular destination in Basketball. In the mid-90s lots of guys took paycuts to pay for our team. The last few years many players have had the Rockets high on their list of teams they would like to play for. Astros have never had trouble attacting good players in Free Agency. Guys love to play in Houston because of the no state income tax thing.

When it comes to football, I don't think you understand what Dan Ferens the Director of Negotiations actually does. He doesn't evaluate talent. He doesn't say "this guy isn't very good, so he doesn't deserve very much money." Our scouting department and personell department tells him how much a guy is worth, then it is his job to get creative and structure the deal so it is cap friendly and doesn't break the bank. If the players don't perform up to their potential, gets hurt, or just plain sucks you blame the coach or the scouts or the personnel guys, not the negotations guy.

The guy spent YEARS in Pittsburgh. I don't know how much you know about the Steelers but they are notorious for under paying players and getting the "Steelers' Discount". So this guy knows what he is doing and he is doing just fine considering the situation.

I leave you with one question:
How many player in the NFL grew up dreaming of one day playing for the Houston Texans?

That will change, but it is going to take time and some winning seasons. Believe it or not it makes a big difference, as money isn't everyting.

Read all of my posts on this thread.

Texans_Chick
02-02-2006, 10:55 AM
I agree or am sensitive to everything you said, and in my own twisted way I believe thorugh this post you do agree with the assertion that started this thread. The things that other FA's have told you or that your heard about are staff tweaks not city tweaks. The city does not organize the function, the staff does. I contest that our operations/marketing people are not helping.

I do not agree with your original assertion in this thread in so much as I don't believe people's heads should roll if I don't have any actual knowledge to back that up. I've stated already the core reason why I don't think we have better quality free agent acquitions and why we have to overpay for the ones we get.

Personally, I am not anti-Cass as others here so basically I have no need to put people's heads on sticks. How much was coaching driven or draft driven, I do not know.

As for the marketing people, this is something that I do know about and do have an opinion about. Our marketing people are some of the most fabulous, hard working people you will ever come across. They promote the heck out of different events, the events are a lot of fun, but there are just not as many fanatic Texans fans as there are GB fans or Steeler fans or KC fans or any number of other franchises.

The player I was talking to was talking about the size of the venue. There are certain NFL events that every NFL team holds--I think they are required. And it is just that soooo many more people want to go to those events in other cities that they have to hold them in larger venues. At many Texans events, the majority of people you will see at them are Texans sponsors and not so much the individual fan.

With last year's losing season, I was able to go to all sorts of lightly attended events that I probably wouldn't have been able to go to if the team were more popular. My lemonade outta lemons.

Winning will fix things better than blaming the marketing department for trying there hardest to sell a losing product. You can't make chicken salad outta chicken ----.

There are countless people who choose to train here that do not live or play here, why is that? We are baby team from a tradition stand point in the Houston Texans sense not NFL, but other than that there is no reason why we cannot win like the Ravens did five years into their existence. Kubiak is a great start in beginning a Texans tradition and speaking to all that Houston has to offer and have confidence that he will be build a winning tradition. It is the suits that are in the shadows that are not pulling their weight in my opinion.

As I understand it, some of the previous expansion franchised teams had some advantages over us in obtaining free agents. It used to be that teams didn't manage their caps well because they weren't really prepared for it. And so the newish teams could take advantage of that because they had all sorts of free money. (The reason why Capers did well with the Panthers quickly).

Teams these days do a much better job keeping the players they really want to keep.

I don't know how much the suits in the shadows are doing or not doing in getting us players--much of that is driven by the types of players the coaches want and who is available.

I hope Kubes create some more confidence here and make people believe that winning can happen in Houston right away.

Your last statement, in my opinion, is true due to who are higher paid players are. I truly believe that not many people want to play for a team that looks at how are cap is being spent and does not want to be a part of it.

What?

I don't understand what you are saying.

Sarg01
02-02-2006, 11:00 AM
The job of a negotiator is to go in and get the team's perceived value of a player based upon their evaluation as well as what the market will bear. The evaulations have not been good, but the term and dollars thrown around are up to the negotiator to find out what the value of that player is within the market. If you do not think we overpaid market value before we signed Wade and Greenwood then you will not find many who share that opinion.

We are in good cap shape until next year, given we resign DC and draft Bush.

I didn't hear too much complaining about Wade and Greenwoods contracts until after they failed to perform. Free Agents coming to a team without much history and without a winning season are always going to be substantially more expensive than the market average.

If the coaching/scouting evaluation is "we gotta get this guy" than the negotiations staff has their hands tied. We have no way to evaluate the guy's performance. For all we know, he might have hit on every negotating point management asked for. Salary is not the only point he's supposed to close on. Perhaps he's supposed to accelerate a given deal's cap implications. Perhaps he's supposed to delay them. Perhaps he's supposed to stack a deal to do it's cap damage in a given year that looks like it'll be a good cap year. We just can't judge his performance without knowing what he was asked to do and what the agents were asking.

Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 11:11 AM
Do appreciate your insight into the soft under belly of organization, but although they may be terrific people in marketing, it does seem through another post on this thread that you were implying marketing is an issue. I have always been a huge proponent of working smarter not harder. No sarcasm here, just a take.

As far as my last statement and as a former agent, dealing with European contracts in basketball, I always asked my veteran clients what they wanted and believe me money was not always the driving issue. It was balance of teammates, money, location and short term success. I think when prospective players look at us they do not see short term success given our many shortcomings at positions that are commanding large hits against the cap.

LBC_Justin
02-02-2006, 11:20 AM
I agree or am sensitive to everything you said, and in my own twisted way I believe thorugh this post you do agree with the assertion that started this thread. The things that other FA's have told you or that your heard about are staff tweaks not city tweaks. The city does not organize the function, the staff does. I contest that our operations/marketing people are not helping.

There are countless people who choose to train here that do not live or play here, why is that? We are baby team from a tradition stand point in the Houston Texans sense not NFL, but other than that there is no reason why we cannot win like the Ravens did five years into their existence. Kubiak is a great start in beginning a Texans tradition and speaking to all that Houston has to offer and have confidence that he will be build a winning tradition. It is the suits that are in the shadows that are not pulling their weight in my opinion.

Your last statement, in my opinion, is true due to who are higher paid players are. I truly believe that not many people want to play for a team that looks at how our cap is being spent and do not want to be a part of it.

Kaiser Toro,
I have read all of your posts. I totally dissagree with you.

You seem to think players are all about the money.
WRONG!!!!!!!!
Winning Tradition - NONE
Celebrity - Minimal National TV coverage
Childhood Love for a team - Not unless you in grade school
Prestige - In other cities many people who aren't big football fans don't even know that the Houston Texans are a football team.

When all of this is lacking, you have to throw in a few extra dollars to make up for it.

This will all change and only winning can speed up the process but for now it is what it is like Texan_Chick said that is the reality of our situation.

Blaming the marketing department! LOL why don't we fire the janitors too while were at it. Have you ever been in Sales? Imagine you job is to market one of the worst products. Not easy, and not getting much easier. 2-14 doesn't help. Drafting Vince Young would make the marketing job a lot easier in the very short term but would not help with us winning right away and taking any QB with the first overall pick would hit the cap pretty hard, especially considering that guy wouldn't play for a year or two.

Oh and the Ravens were not an expansion team. The Browns were.

jerek
02-02-2006, 11:22 AM
I didn't hear too much complaining about Wade and Greenwoods contracts until after they failed to perform. Free Agents coming to a team without much history and without a winning season are always going to be substantially more expensive than the market average.

If the coaching/scouting evaluation is "we gotta get this guy" than the negotiations staff has their hands tied. We have no way to evaluate the guy's performance. For all we know, he might have hit on every negotating point management asked for. Salary is not the only point he's supposed to close on. Perhaps he's supposed to accelerate a given deal's cap implications. Perhaps he's supposed to delay them. Perhaps he's supposed to stack a deal to do it's cap damage in a given year that looks like it'll be a good cap year. We just can't judge his performance without knowing what he was asked to do and what the agents were asking.

I wasn't active on the board at the time, but in this case I would like to point out my omniscience and say that I had a problem with Greenwood's contract. He was a decent LB in Miami and got paid good LB money to come here and do nothing but tackle as a function of the system. He is overpaid for his skill and what he brings to the team, and whether it was our director of Negotiations, Cass, or his pet monkey that inked the deal, I fault them for it. As well, there were several other, significantly better and more proven LBs (Kendrell Bell, Hartwell, among several others) that I would have much rather us pursued.

Wade, I didn't know enough about to comment.

No staff is omniscient, every staff will make a mistake. Sometimes, you just believe too much of a guy. It hasn't happened enough to where I am sure the guys doing the contracts need to be fired, but Kaiser is right, there have been some significantly costly mistakes made on the part of the staff here.

Texans_Chick
02-02-2006, 11:24 AM
Do appreciate your insight into the soft under belly of organization, but although they may be terrific people in marketing, it does seem through another post on this thread that you were implying marketing is an issue. I have always been a huge proponent of working smarter not harder. No sarcasm here, just a take.

Winning and time will help marketing. My comments were more along the lines of tradition. It is hard to build a fan base and a tradition. It has been really facsinating to me to see how our organization is trying to do that from scratch, cuz it ain't easy.

Not blaming marketing one bit. We just don't have a lot of fans yet, and that will come with having a better product on the field and more time.

As far as my last statement and as a former agent, dealing with European contracts in basketball, I always asked my veteran clients what they wanted and believe me money was not always the driving issue. It was balance of teammates, money, location and short term success. I think when prospective players look at us they do not see short term success given our many shortcomings at positions that are commanding large hits against the cap.

I think we are agreeing more than we are disagreeing. Other than the head rolling part because I feel I don't have enough info to make that judgment. I guess I am just very empathetic to the challenges of trying to build a team from scratch.

Chickens and eggs. How do you argue to someone that we are going to win if we haven't? This is where Kubiak has to do some major work. Changing expectations and creating confidence and more of a sense of team.

LBC_Justin
02-02-2006, 11:25 AM
Do appreciate your insight into the soft under belly of organization, but although they may be terrific people in marketing, it does seem through another post on this thread that you were implying marketing is an issue. I have always been a huge proponent of working smarter not harder. No sarcasm here, just a take.

As far as my last statement and as a former agent, dealing with European contracts in basketball, I always asked my veteran clients what they wanted and believe me money was not always the driving issue. It was balance of teammates, money, location and short term success. I think when prospective players look at us they do not see short term success given our many shortcomings at positions that are commanding large hits against the cap.Well then we aren't overpaying for our free agents. Because all we pretty much have to offer them is money. Teammates, location, short term sucess...none of those are that great, because losing teams seem to get "shook up " alot so there is a lot of uncertainty.

LBC_Justin
02-02-2006, 11:33 AM
No staff is omniscient, every staff will make a mistake. Sometimes, you just believe too much of a guy. It hasn't happened enough to where I am sure the guys doing the contracts need to be fired, but Kaiser is right, there have been some significantly costly mistakes made on the part of the staff here.
your right.

But the guys to blame for those decisions are Casserly and Capers. They took some risks and they didn't pay off. Capers is gone and Casserly will be soon if things don't change soon.

I don't know if you ever listen to Sirius NFL Radio, but in the off season when their isn't much too talk about they really dive into what the football operations guys actually do. Dan Ferens our "Capologist" is doing just fine in fact last off season they mentioned him a few times in a very positive manner.

Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 11:33 AM
Kaiser Toro,
I have read all of your posts. I totally dissagree with you.

You seem to think players are all about the money.
WRONG!!!!!!!!
Winning Tradition - NONE
Celebrity - Minimal National TV coverage
Childhood Love for a team - Not unless you in grade school
Prestige - In other cities many people who aren't big football fans don't even know that the Houston Texans are a football team.

When all of this is lacking, you have to throw in a few extra dollars to make up for it.

This will all change and only winning can speed up the process but for now it is what it is like Texan_Chick said that is the reality of our situation.

Blaming the marketing department! LOL why don't we fire the janitors too while were at it. Have you ever been in Sales? Imagine you job is to market one of the worst products. Not easy, and not getting much easier. 2-14 doesn't help. Drafting Vince Young would make the marketing job a lot easier in the very short term but would not help with us winning right away and taking any QB with the first overall pick would hit the cap pretty hard, especially considering that guy wouldn't play for a year or two.

Oh and the Ravens were not an expansion team. The Browns were.

Thats fine brother we will have to disagree since my posts are not versed in a way that you understand or you are choosing to nitpick and use my takes out of context to frame your viewpoint. I am cool with that as we all do it. :cool:

The impetus behing this thread is to get off of the ridiculous debates we have had for over a month and focus a conversation on the people who have been behind the scenes doing the grunt work for our future.

Runner
02-02-2006, 11:58 AM
We have as many dollars to spend as any other team in the NFL, it is how we choose to spend that money and what type of return investment we get. Purchasing and evaluating has not been a strength.


I agree it is pretty easy to see where we have spent unwisely (especially in hindsight). However, I wonder how we compare to other teams in the wisdom of our spending? I suspect many, if not all, NFL teams have some contracts they regret.

It would be very interesting to see a team wide comparison of how much value we get compared to other teams. It has to be team wide though, because it is too easy to cherry pick examples that show either we "do better" or "do worse" than other teams.

A gross evaluator is wins/payroll, but that is affected by too many unrelated variables. A better indicator would be player/cost/performance, but that would require too much work for the casual fan.

cadahnic
02-02-2006, 12:13 PM
Runner I think we fall in line with were Cass came from. He is use to spending to get his players in Washington. I mean Snyder and the guy before would get the players the coaches wanted at the expense of price. Now some teams such as the Eagles, Patriots, and the Browns to a certain extent were known for being frugal and not spending overly much unless the performance warranted it. I think we have overspent for underperfoming guys. If you look at certain things Todd Wade and Greenwood are making more money per year than many pro=bowlers. That is just one example and yes it goes both ways becuase many teams have these type of players that are overpaid and underperform, but as Kaiser intended with this thread was to look at the guys responsible for the contracts. A team negotiator does get the info from Cass and the scouts but it is then on him to get value and if he does not get value then he needs to tell Cass and the scouts that the guy does not perform to the cost he is going to have to be signed for. So I guess what I am saying is they are all responsible.

jerek
02-02-2006, 12:21 PM
Thats fine brother we will have to disagree since my posts are not versed in a way that you understand or you are choosing to nitpick and use my takes out of context to frame your viewpoint. I am cool with that as we all do it. :cool:

The impetus behing this thread is to get off of the ridiculous debates we have had for over a month and focus a conversation on the people who have been behind the scenes doing the grunt work for our future.

Which I appreciate you providing us a new forum to talk about.

Unfortunately, I don't know as much about the nature and division of responsibilities for this part of our staff. I suspect that our staff/player "marketing" has done a poor job in part, and I suspect also that the Texans are simply a losing team with little tradition, which also hurts our draw to some free agents.

I suspect there are (though I don't know any off the top of my head) players that do or have taken pay or play cuts to play for a winning team, in pursuit of that ring. Houston is a great football city, a great place to live for most, and in terms of our ownership and facilities (no state income tax, as well as nightlife, etc. - like it or not, a significant draw for some) it is one of the very tops in the league. Some players will make their decision to come here based in part on these things. Still others are concerned primarily - even only - with money.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between. Kaiser is right in that we have overpaid some players, made bad choices in acquiring others, and most of that blame lies in the staff who brought them here (again, not sure on the division of responsibilities, who pulled for who, etc.). I think that it is also a valid point to state that the Texans - for all that we do have going for us - are lacking in a winning tradition and, until about a month ago, suffered under one of the most overall incompetent coaching staffs in the league.

Here's to hoping the hiring of Kubes is just the first of many steps we will take toward rectifying these problems in this offseason.

kingh99
02-02-2006, 12:28 PM
Texans are still being too cheap with their coaching staff.

The coaching staff is the single biggest determinate to winning.

Example. Mike Price was exiled to UTEP, a team that never got within 40 points of the conference leaders and the 1st year Price and his assistants show up the program does a 180. Of course this story can be repeated over and over again. It's the coaching staff, stupid.

Malloy
02-02-2006, 12:35 PM
http://houstontexans.com/team/front_office_detail.php?PRKey=97

This is our Director of Negotiations. Seeing his background I would assume that he is at the table with Cass and the player reps to hammer out contracts. If that is the case this guy is a big part of the problem.

The way I understand it (granted I may be wrong here), the GM/coach/owner makes the decisions and this dude hammers out the deal based, and within the limits, of those decisions?

Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 01:01 PM
The way I understand it (granted I may be wrong here), the GM/coach/owner makes the decisions and this dude hammers out the deal based, and within the limits, of those decisions?

Every team is different on how they appoint the decision making process. These are the power struggles you often hear about when a top candidate coach/GM is trying to be wooed. In the background there are many people touching the subject before a decision is rendered. The face of all of the moves has been Cass and Capers, but when you peel back the onion there are many layers of touches.

I headlined this thread with Mr. Ferens, Negotiations and should have headlined with Mr. Banker and his staff, Pro scouting.

Malloy
02-02-2006, 01:09 PM
Every team is different on how they appoint the decision making process. These are the power struggles you often hear about when a top candidate coach/GM is trying to be wooed. In the background there are many people touching the subject before a decision is rendered. The face of all of the moves has been Cass and Capers, but when you peel back the onion there are many layers of touches.

I headlined this thread with Mr. Ferens, Negotiations and should have headlined with Mr. Banker and his staff, Pro scouting.

I agree, there are many more people behind the scenes, and for us outsiders (I know, I hate it too) we only see a fraction of what actually goes on. You might have a point on the Ferens/Banker thing, I would not at all be surprised if that was the case, I just responded on what my own initial perceptions were in regards to the function of a negotiator

Slightly off topic, have you ever seen the movie Slasher?, now THAT's the sort of person I want to lead our negotiations :)

Porky
02-02-2006, 03:17 PM
One way to attract top FA is to have a coaching staff with some gravitas and a well known reputation for success. Mcnair didn't learn a thing from the Capers regime. How many top FA wr's will come here to be coached by a guy who has no experience, and looks like your local Burger King cook? Time up. Try none. Zero. Zip. Mike Sherman would help alot with the "gravitas" issue, but as it is, this is a staff of welterweights, in a heavyweight league.

whiskeyrbl
02-02-2006, 03:24 PM
I agree with you whole heartedly Texans Chick,but i believe that if our "STAFF" would actually address our teams needs and show that they are trying to build a winner some of those FA that are on the fence would consider the Texans more seriously.

bigTEXan8
02-02-2006, 03:51 PM
To me, if I'm a FA, I look at Houston, and see how they are more or less, starting over, and they have no where to go but up. I'd look at the Texans and say, "They got a new, inspired, smart coach. Making changes. It might be worth it to turn this team around." That's JM:twocents:.

TEXANS84
02-02-2006, 03:58 PM
To me, if I'm a FA, I look at Houston, and see how they are more or less, starting over, and they have no where to go but up. I'd look at the Texans and say, "They got a new, inspired, smart coach. Making changes. It might be worth it to turn this team around." That's JM:twocents:.

Or you can look at is this in a FA's eyes: "Hey, they gave an average right tackle a 10 million dollar signing bonus. I'm going there."

bigTEXan8
02-02-2006, 04:10 PM
Or you can look at is this in a FA's eyes: "Hey, they gave an average right tackle a 10 million dollar signing bonus. I'm going there."

Touche'. No, I get what you are saying, if the player is in it for the money. Do we think that there are some players that would want to come to Houston to win, especially with a new HC, a new system?

Runner
02-02-2006, 04:25 PM
It is rarely about anything but highest bidder if there is a significant difference in the offer.

As an aside, the players pay taxes according to where the games are played. So by joining the Texans, the player guarantees himself 8 game checks without State taxes. When we play in Jacksonville that would be another State tax free game. However, if we play in a state with a state tax the player is responsible for that tax on their check for that game.

infantrycak
02-02-2006, 04:36 PM
As an aside, the players pay taxes according to where the games are played. So by joining the Texans, the player guarantees himself 8 game checks without State taxes. When we play in Jacksonville that would be another State tax free game. However, if we play in a state with a state tax the player is responsible for that tax on their check for that game.

Where do you get that from? Never heard anything about that.

Porky
02-02-2006, 04:39 PM
Where do you get that from? Never heard anything about that.

If I am not mistaken, this depends on each state and how they choose to tax. I don't think this is an automatic given. Some states want to grab a piece of every nickel they can get, so they come up with laws to tax folks who work temporarily in the state, then have the AG or someone "interprepet" that to apply to out of state sports figures who come in on a one day road trip.

Runner
02-02-2006, 04:54 PM
Where do you get that from? Never heard anything about that.

A player told me that around tax time last year.

infantrycak
02-02-2006, 05:19 PM
If I am not mistaken, this depends on each state and how they choose to tax. I don't think this is an automatic given. Some states want to grab a piece of every nickel they can get, so they come up with laws to tax folks who work temporarily in the state, then have the AG or someone "interprepet" that to apply to out of state sports figures who come in on a one day road trip.

I don't doubt that most states have a system to claim as much money as they can attempt to grab. I know it isn't as simple as where the work is performed. Since retiring from Texas Instruments/Raytheon my father has been doing consulting work around the country in week at a time blocks. He has had to explain that he is a resident of Texas to a couple states (CA was the most aggressive) but so far all have backed off. I'd be surprised to find there was a different rule for a player engaged in 4 hours worth of work in a state.

Texans_Chick
02-02-2006, 05:27 PM
I don't doubt that most states have a system to claim as much money as they can attempt to grab. I know it isn't as simple as where the work is performed. Since retiring from Texas Instruments/Raytheon my father has been doing consulting work around the country in week at a time blocks. He has had to explain that he is a resident of Texas to a couple states (CA was the most aggressive) but so far all have backed off. I'd be surprised to find there was a different rule for a player engaged in 4 hours worth of work in a state.


It is called the informally called the jock tax. Here is a good summary of it:

Link: Could you be hit by the 'jock tax'? (http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P112872.asp)

Article discusses the states who tax people who make money in their state. Generally, athletes and entertainers are targeted because what they do is obvious, but it talks about others being targeted too.

One way or another, it makes Texas a good place for athletes to play because there is no jock tax nor state income tax here, so the home game checks are immune to it.

This, combined with the relatively inexpensive home prices here, can help attract athletes to play here.

Texian
02-02-2006, 07:36 PM
I am a little late to the party for this thread but if you have a problem with these two gentlemen and want to be granular and root out the problem, I suggest you target the person who hired them.

As for FA I think you will find in a majority of high priced FAs don't live up to the money they get. Much of this can be attributed to impatience and panick from the front office.

Hervoyel
02-02-2006, 11:12 PM
well if we draft vince he will take over all negotiations and player signings along with the draft..so no worries

Guys will pay the Texans to play with Vince. Forget "Home Team Discount" because this is a new day. We're talking "Vince Bonus" instead. All the top free agents will be giving the money they earned playing for their previous team to Bob McNair just to let them play with Vince.

Runner
02-02-2006, 11:16 PM
Guys will pay the Texans to play with Vince. Forget "Home Team Discount" because this is a new day. We're talking "Vince Bonus" instead. All the top free agents will be giving the money they earned playing for their previous team to Bob McNair just to let them play with Vince.

I hadn't thought of that! Excellent - things really are looking up.

Fiddy
02-02-2006, 11:19 PM
Guys will pay the Texans to play with Vince. Forget "Home Team Discount" because this is a new day. We're talking "Vince Bonus" instead. All the top free agents will be giving the money they earned playing for their previous team to Bob McNair just to let them play with Vince. Donald Driver has already said he would love to come back home play with the Texans if they would take VY, not sure if he said he'd take a paycut...

Kaiser Toro
02-03-2006, 07:48 AM
I am a little late to the party for this thread but if you have a problem with these two gentlemen and want to be granular and root out the problem, I suggest you target the person who hired them.

We've been there and done that for years. That was the point of the thread.