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TEXANS84
02-01-2006, 10:26 AM
Heard on this morning while listening to Sports Radio 610 about the possiblilty of R.C. Slocum being a possible defensive coordinator candidate.


http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/pg2/2001/1231/photo/gallery4.jpg

Remember, the guy is responsible for the 91' "Wrecking Crew" defense:

The Wrecking Crew defense finished the season ranked No. 1 by the NCAA in total defense (222.4 yards per game) and in passing defense (136.4 yards per game). The defense finished No. 7 nationally in points allowed (13.1) and in No. 4 in rushing defense (86.0).

Some of the records set by the ’91 defense that still stand are:

Most sacks in a season (56)

Most sack yardage in a season (388 yards)

Most average sacks per game (5.1)

Fewest completions allowed in game (0 vs. Arkansas)

http://www.aggieathletics.com/pressRelease.php?PRID=10201

Thoughts?

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 10:29 AM
Heard on this morning while listening to Sports Radio 610 about the possiblilty of R.C. Slocum being a possible defensive coordinator candidate.


http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/pg2/2001/1231/photo/gallery4.jpg

Remember, the guy is responsible for the 91' "Wrecking Crew" defense:



http://www.aggieathletics.com/pressRelease.php?PRID=10201

Thoughts?

It wouldn't bother me a bit. I think RC is the main reason the Aggies have more players in the NFL than Texas. He coaches his players to prepare them for the NFL. The last few years, he just didn't recruit enough talent to get the job done.

Sportsfan
02-01-2006, 10:29 AM
I'm not gonna knock them for wanting a class guy w/some good credentials. Go for it.

bigTEXan8
02-01-2006, 10:35 AM
I'm all for having this guy as our DC. Guy produces a solid D. Anybody is better than Fangio, or however you spell it.

Kaiser Toro
02-01-2006, 10:36 AM
All I know about RC is that he is an class guy that had some great defenses in college. I do not know anything about his defensive philosophy.

All I can say is that I hope this does not incite any wrecking crew chants. It is arguably the lamest chant and hand symbol I have ever seen.

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 10:41 AM
All I know about RC is that he is an class guy that had some great defenses in college. I do not know anything about his defensive philosophy.

All I can say is that I hope this does not incite any wrecking crew chants. It is arguably the lamest chant and hand symbol I have ever seen.


He ran the 3-4 at A&M.

Do you always have to throw something negative in every post you make??? Of course, I am an Ag, but if you are an opposing team that gets stuffed by the D, and the crowd starts chanting this so loud you can't hear yourself think...

I like it. Better than the sitting on the hands crowd we see at many a football stadiums nowadays...

Kaiser Toro
02-01-2006, 10:43 AM
He ran the 3-4 at A&M.

Do you always have to throw something negative in every post you make??? Of course, I am an Ag, but if you are an opposing team that gets stuffed by the D, and the crowd starts chanting this so loud you can't hear yourself think...

I like it. Better than the sitting on the hands crowd we see at many a football stadiums nowadays...

The subject is Slocum, where was I negative in my post about the speculation on the subject?

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 10:44 AM
The subject is Slocum, where was I negative in my post about the speculation on the subject?

Where in my post did I say you were negative about the speculation on the subject? I asked why you had to throw something negative in every post you make. I know this is not fact (not EVERY post), but you do it so often, it seems that way.

Cjeremy635
02-01-2006, 10:48 AM
I heard the same comment on the radio on my drive into work this morning. I don't know much about RC, but I believe we are putting together a great staff of coaches. I am optomistic about this upcoming year and down the road from that even. I know this might be far fetched, but I get the feeling that this staff will eventually be a talented staff and one that people are going to look at down the road just as they look at previous "dream team" coaching staffs that Gruden, Holmgren, Shanahan, and others sprouted off of. Old 49er staffs and such.:yahoo: :ok:

Kaiser Toro
02-01-2006, 10:50 AM
Where in my post did I say you were negative about the speculation on the subject? I asked why you had to throw something negative in every post you make. I know this is not fact (not EVERY post), but you do it so often, it seems that way.

Negativity is your perception. My posts are are nothing more than to foster debate, entertainment value (most often for myself), my own unfounded takes as a fan and to play devil's advocate in order for me to gather as much information on both sides to form an opinion.

You can easily put me on your ignore list if you do not see the value or do not like the volume in my posts.

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 10:52 AM
Negativity is your perception. My posts are are nothing more than to foster debate, entertainment value (most often for myself), my own unfounded takes as a fan and to play devil's advocate in order for me to gather as much information on both sides to form an opinion.

You can easily put me on your ignore list if you do not see the value or do not like the volume in my posts.


Just noting what I see. I value your opinions and would not put you on ignore. I just think sometimes you are too negative and yes, I know, this is my perception.

TexanBacker93
02-01-2006, 10:52 AM
All I know about RC is that he is an class guy that had some great defenses in college. I do not know anything about his defensive philosophy.

All I can say is that I hope this does not incite any wrecking crew chants. It is arguably the lamest chant and hand symbol I have ever seen.

We don't want to have anything to do with the name wrecking crew. We don't want A&M filing a lawsuit against us.

Kaiser Toro
02-01-2006, 10:53 AM
We don't want to have anything to do with the name wrecking crew. We don't want A&M filing a lawsuit against us.

Nice.

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 10:53 AM
We don't want to have anything to do with the name wrecking crew. We don't want A&M filing a lawsuit against us.

I don't care who you are that's funny! (Coming from an Ag!) Of course, I do have to comment that under trademark law, TAMU is required to defend its trademark.

TexansFanatic
02-01-2006, 10:57 AM
Bring him on! We'll get more of Coach Slocum on a mobile on 610.

cadahnic
02-01-2006, 10:59 AM
I know alot about Slocum he was the one who recruited me. He is a class guy and task master. He does not take any crap and he expects you to give your best on every play whether walk through or game or just film session. Possibly the greatest coach I ever had. He runs an attacking 3-4 defense similar to Pittsburgh's blitz packages, but does some Patriot style coverages. Mainly press man, but some slide zones and shades to help out the safties. Corners are expected to blitz often and He stresses and I do mean stresses angles when attacking. "a good angle can make the most athletic seem like a F-ing practice squadder" I got this yelled at me many a time. I dont think he will become our DC, but it would be great if he was brought in to coach LBs or as a consultant to the HC on Defense.

Kaiser Toro
02-01-2006, 11:03 AM
I know alot about Slocum he was the one who recruited me. He is a class guy and task master. He does not take any crap and he expects you to give your best on every play whether walk through or game or just film session. Possibly the greatest coach I ever had. He runs an attacking 3-4 defense similar to Pittsburgh's blitz packages, but does some Patriot style coverages. Mainly press man, but some slide zones and shades to help out the safties. Corners are expected to blitz often and He stresses and I do mean stresses angles when attacking. "a good angle can make the most athletic seem like a F-ing practice squadder" I got this yelled at me many a time. I dont think he will become our DC, but it would be great if he was brought in to coach LBs or as a consultant to the HC on Defense.

I can get behind a guy that gets that type of endorsement.

HoustonFrog
02-01-2006, 11:03 AM
I don't care who you are that's funny! (Coming from an Ag!) Of course, I do have to comment that under trademark law, TAMU is required to defend its trademark.

Rome was saying the other day that he doesn't think the Ags have a case because the Seattle fans aren't mounting each other and sticking their tongues down each others throats after TDs. :) Sorry to Ags but the way it was said was funny.

Chance_C
02-01-2006, 11:09 AM
Richard Smith and RC might make a good combo for co-defensive coordinators....

Errant Hothy
02-01-2006, 11:28 AM
Coming form a Tech grad, who grew up in a UT family (don't ask how it happened) I'd have no issues with RC being the DC or even a coach/consultant. He has produced some great D and put a bunch of players into teh NFL. RC knows talent, espically defensive talent.

The only downside would be it wouldmena that we are most likely sticking with teh 3-4, and after four years of it I'm not so high on it anymore (unless we got somebody from Pitts D to run it, like say their D line caoch.)

jmerog
02-01-2006, 11:39 AM
Sign the man up. If he wont come, kidnap him

TEXANRED
02-01-2006, 11:44 AM
We don't want to have anything to do with the name wrecking crew. We don't want A&M filing a lawsuit against us.
HA HA.

It would be nice to have a guy who knows the purpose of a Defense, you know, tackle, coverage, not letting the other team score. Basicss.

Now before I get to excitecd, was it speculation, rumor, a source close to reported? Or were they just throwing names out?

TEXANS84
02-01-2006, 11:45 AM
Now before I get to excitecd, was it speculation, rumor, a source close to reported? Or were they just throwing names out?

It was more of the speculation/rumor field.

But when you think about it, it kind of makes sense. Kubiak was a quarterbacks coach with Texas A&M. Sherman was the offensive line coach at Texas A&M. See a pattern emerging here?

travfrancis
02-01-2006, 12:23 PM
hmmm... kubiak already said we were a 4-3 team, wonder if RC came here if he would be forced to run a 4-3, i would certianly hope not.

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 12:31 PM
hmmm... kubiak already said we were a 4-3 team

That is what leads me to believe that this is more thinking out loud than anything else.

michaelm
02-01-2006, 12:32 PM
We don't want to have anything to do with the name wrecking crew. We don't want A&M filing a lawsuit against us.


Yeah, but we'd probably beat them 40-29... :stirpot:

Texans Horror
02-01-2006, 01:37 PM
It'd be good to see Slocum here.

I was wondering about Ray Rhodes, defensive coordinator at Seattle. This Texan was defensive backs coach at San Fran the same time that Shanahan was there; he even coached with him in Denver. He runs a 4-3. He has a habit of making bad defenses good, and since his team is in the Superbowl, everybody has to stay hush-hush. Just connecting some dots. I don't have anything tangible.

Anybody know his contract status at Seattle?

Some sites about Rhodes if you want to check it out:

http://www.superbowl.com/news/story/9173530

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/seahawks/archive/story/5437270p-3568969c.html

Kaiser Toro
02-01-2006, 01:39 PM
It'd be good to see Slocum here.

I was wondering about Ray Rhodes, defensive coordinator at Seattle. This Texan was defensive backs coach at San Fran the same time that Shanahan was there; he even coached with him in Denver. He runs a 4-3. He has a habit of making bad defenses good, and since his team is in the Superbowl, everybody has to stay hush-hush. Just connecting some dots. I don't have anything tangible.

Anybody know his contract status at Seattle?

He has been sidelined most of the year with a stroke.

Texans Horror
02-01-2006, 01:44 PM
Got my dates mixed up and thought I was looking at a current article. Scratch that one off the list! But I see via your other post some of the same reasons for trying for Marshall...

texanfan2002114
02-01-2006, 03:16 PM
It was more of the speculation/rumor field.

But when you think about it, it kind of makes sense. Kubiak was a quarterbacks coach with Texas A&M. Sherman was the offensive line coach at Texas A&M. See a pattern emerging here?


kubiak and sherman have both been coaches the last 3 years. Where has Slocum been? I wouldn't mind him coming in and maybe coaching LB's but not as the DC for an NFL team. just my :twocents:

Caphorn
02-01-2006, 03:30 PM
Not to rain on anybody's parade, but for some reason I thought we wanted to go to and maybe win a Super Bowl. Why would re-assembling the aggy dreamcast from a couple decades back give you confidence we are heading in the right direction?

I want to see a NFL guy. Not a college guy with success (Chizik) or an old has-been college guy (RC) but a real f'n NFL guy. RC's been out of the game for a long time. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I'd prefer somebody who has a good feel for what's going on in the league right now. Add to all of this that NOBODY has hired RC to be a college HC since he left A&M. Sorry, but I just am really less than impressed if this ends up being Kubiak's answer for turning around the defense.

Texans Honk
02-01-2006, 03:38 PM
I want to see a Jim Bates or even a Mike Singletary as a DC. that's just me.

Malloy
02-01-2006, 03:56 PM
I know alot about Slocum he was the one who recruited me. He is a class guy and task master. He does not take any crap and he expects you to give your best on every play whether walk through or game or just film session. Possibly the greatest coach I ever had. He runs an attacking 3-4 defense similar to Pittsburgh's blitz packages, but does some Patriot style coverages. Mainly press man, but some slide zones and shades to help out the safties. Corners are expected to blitz often and He stresses and I do mean stresses angles when attacking. "a good angle can make the most athletic seem like a F-ing practice squadder" I got this yelled at me many a time. I dont think he will become our DC, but it would be great if he was brought in to coach LBs or as a consultant to the HC on Defense.

Personal first-hand knowledge, thanks!

Sounds like a class guy, let's get more of his type :)

TEXANRED
02-01-2006, 03:59 PM
Who is the linebackers coach for the steelers? The way he get his linebackers to play maybe he deserves a shot.

chall8
02-01-2006, 04:10 PM
Of course, I am an Ag, but if you are an opposing team that gets stuffed by the D, and the crowd starts chanting this so loud you can't hear yourself think...

I don't have a problem with RC as I always thought he was a great coach, but I'm going to have to second the motion on no Aggie chants at any Texans game. The day this happens will be the day I officially turn in my Texans gear.

The Aggies apparently have some deal where they bend over with their hands on their knees and recite some chant. I'll never forget the time I was watching A&M play UH at the Dome and this 12 year old kid, who was there with his dad, was refusing to do it. The dad was really agitated about it finally the kid gave it. Very, very humorous.

We already have good, knowledgable fans who get loud when the defense is on the field. We do not need the aid of Aggie chants.

El Tejano
02-01-2006, 05:04 PM
RC Slocum? Are we at the bottom of the barrell or what?

Fighting Blue Hen
02-01-2006, 05:30 PM
I am so sick and tired of all this homerism. Bunch of Aggie homers.

Bring in a real DC like this guy.

http://www.texanstalk.com/pics/buddy.gif

TEXANS84
02-01-2006, 05:38 PM
I am so sick and tired of all this homerism. Bunch of Aggie homers.

FYI, I started this thread (TCU Grad) and was relaying information heard over the radio. There is no need to call people homers.

Fighting Blue Hen
02-01-2006, 05:40 PM
FYI, I started this thread (TCU Grad) and was relaying information heard over the radio. There is no need to call people homers.

Was being sarcastic to those who have been laying down all the "UT homerism" posts.

edo783
02-01-2006, 05:42 PM
Mmmmm, I wonder if our OC can take a punch?

TEXANS84
02-01-2006, 05:42 PM
Was being sarcastic to those who have been laying down all the "UT homerism" posts.

:ok:

And yes, Buddy would be wonderful at DC.

Long Baller
02-01-2006, 05:45 PM
Steelers LB Coach:

"Keith Butler enters his third year on the Steelers’ coaching staff, joining the staff prior to the 2003 season.

Butler was named the Steelers’ linebackers coach Jan. 28, 2003, after serving the previous four seasons in a similar capacity with the Cleveland Browns (1999-02).

Butler has been instrumental in the development of the Steelers’ highly regarded linebacking corps. The unit includes two Pro Bowl players—All-Pro James Farrior (his first Pro Bowl) and Joey Porter—as well as developing starters Clark Haggans and Larry Foote. Butler also helped groom one of the team’s defensive surprises James Harrison, an original rookie free agent with the Steelers in 2000 who re-signed with the team just before training camp in 2004 after a year’s absence.

Prior to joining the Browns’ staff, Butler spent nine years coaching in the college ranks.

He began his coaching career at his alma mater, the University of Memphis, where he coached linebackers from 1990-97 and also coached defensive ends and special teams (1995-97). He served as defensive coordinator and linebackers coach at Arkansas State University in 1998.

Butler, 49, was selected by the Seattle Seahawks in the second round of the 1978 NFL Draft and played linebacker for 10 seasons (1978-87) with Seattle. He served as a defensive captain for the team and started 132-of-146 games in his career and still ranks second on the club’s all-time tackles list with 813.

A three-year starter at inside linebacker for Memphis, Butler led the school in tackles his junior and senior seasons. He finished his collegiate career with 384 tackles and seven interceptions. He was named a 1977 Associated Press All-American and played in the 1977 Senior Bowl and Blue-Gray All-Star Game.

Butler was born May 16, 1956 in Anniston, Ala. He and his wife Janet have three sons—Blake (22), Brandon (20) and Brett (18)."

TEXANRED
02-01-2006, 06:31 PM
Thanks long baller. After reading that I would say that man deserves a shot. You are not born a D-coordinator and it seems he has payed his dues and has the experience. Just thinking about the way he has got his linebackers flying around makes me wonder if he could make Peek and Babbin into a legit pass rush.

Not to mention he will also have a superbowl ring in a few days. And yes, that is what my magic 8-ball has told me.

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 06:42 PM
We do not need the aid of Aggie chants.

If you are going to post about it, get it right! :)

It is a YELL, not a "chant"!

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 06:43 PM
I am so sick and tired of all this homerism. Bunch of Aggie homers.

Bring in a real DC like this guy.

http://www.texanstalk.com/pics/buddy.gif

You must really want to lose.

Apoch
02-01-2006, 07:13 PM
Coming form a Tech grad, who grew up in a UT family (don't ask how it happened) I'd have no issues with RC being the DC or even a coach/consultant. He has produced some great D and put a bunch of players into teh NFL. RC knows talent, espically defensive talent.

The only downside would be it wouldmena that we are most likely sticking with teh 3-4, and after four years of it I'm not so high on it anymore (unless we got somebody from Pitts D to run it, like say their D line caoch.)

You only say that because you have seen the worst of it. The truth is that with one upgrade the defense can go from last to at least average. All we need is a serious upgrade at NT and you will see the unit improve immensely. Without a NT that can dominate the 1 and 2 gaps, the 3-4 defense crumbles. Seth Payne is pretty good pass rushing from his position, but against the run he just doesn't cut it. Because we have so much personel invested in the 3-4 I still say the dream draft is something like...

1) Reggie Bush, RB USC
2) Gabe Watson, NT Michigan
3a) Greg Eslinger, C Minnesota
3b) Jason Allen, FS Tennessee
4) Johnathan Joseph, CB South Carolina
5) Lawrence Vickers, FB Colorado
6) Joe Toledo, OT Washington
7) Brando Twito, TE/OL Pittsburg State

infantrycak
02-01-2006, 07:31 PM
The truth is that with one upgrade the defense can go from last to at least average. All we need is a serious upgrade at NT and you will see the unit improve immensely. Without a NT that can dominate the 1 and 2 gaps, the 3-4 defense crumbles. Seth Payne is pretty good pass rushing from his position, but against the run he just doesn't cut it. Because we have so much personel invested in the 3-4 I still say the dream draft is something like...

2) Gabe Watson, NT Michigan


So Seth Payne is the weakest link on the D? Don't think so. The difference when Payne is out of the game (and not a positive one) has been one of the more noticeable changes on the D to date. And Gabe Watson who has underwhelmed in college is the answer--hmmm. Not saying he is a bad pick in the 2nd, but if the Texans stuck with a 3-4 next year (unlikely it appears) Watson would be a filler next year (and possibly the year after), rather than an upgrade, just as TJ was last year.

Double Barrel
02-01-2006, 07:39 PM
Bring in a real DC like this guy.

http://www.texanstalk.com/pics/buddy.gif

Too late. We needed him last year to punch Palmer, Pendry, and heck, why not - Capers - in the kissers. :boxing:

WILLIEG
02-01-2006, 07:44 PM
I really doubt if the Texans are bringing in RC. Not that I've got anything against the guy because he did give my HS coach his first college job coaching the linebackers at A&M. To me he has just been out of the mix to long. Whomever the Texan's sign on as our new DC I'm sure that they have been giving the situation careful thought and that is why we haven't really heard who it's going to be. I hope that the problem is solved shortly after the SB.

dat_boy_yec
02-01-2006, 08:05 PM
I might be extremely late, but what happened to Rivera?

Apoch
02-02-2006, 01:10 AM
So Seth Payne is the weakest link on the D? Don't think so. The difference when Payne is out of the game (and not a positive one) has been one of the more noticeable changes on the D to date. And Gabe Watson who has underwhelmed in college is the answer--hmmm. Not saying he is a bad pick in the 2nd, but if the Texans stuck with a 3-4 next year (unlikely it appears) Watson would be a filler next year (and possibly the year after), rather than an upgrade, just as TJ was last year.

Of course Seth Payne is going to be better than Jerry DeLoach. Anyone could have told you that you would get a drop off in play between the two. Seth Payne is the best the Texans have right now, but he isn't good enough if you want to be able to stop the run with seven like New England and Pittsburgh can (the key to a truly dominating defense).

As for Gabe Watson, yeah he was underwhelming in college... so underwhelming that he is a projected top 40 pick by pretty much everyone. ...that he would be a top 20 pick if there wasn't a question about his work ethic (as there always seems to be about guys his size). In fact, after dominating in the Senior Bowl (yes dominating), Dallas is actually thinking about taking him at the #18 spot. I seriously hope they do not, because he and a S is all that defense needs to be amazingly good. Watson was actually so good in Senior Bowl practices that the coaches took him out so they could practice running plays with any kind of success. That is the kind of talent I want at NT. Once again, you say "underwhelming," but I bet you've never even seen him play. He is a force in the middle and a fantastic two gap player.

...and don't even play the Travis Johnson card. TJ was not a good pick if you wanted a 3-4 end. Marcus Spears, Luis Castillo, and even Chris Canty were all more natural fits for the position. Castillo in particular was amazing against the run last year. Casserly picked a player who doesn't fit the position, and you try to compare him to Watson who is built for nothing else but a 3-4 NT.

infantrycak
02-02-2006, 09:08 AM
Of course Seth Payne is going to be better than Jerry DeLoach. Anyone could have told you that you would get a drop off in play between the two.

Don't have to be told--it is easy to see. That contrasts starkly with other folks going down and/or getting replaced without any significant drop off.

Seth Payne is the best the Texans have right now, but he isn't good enough if you want to be able to stop the run with seven like New England and Pittsburgh can (the key to a truly dominating defense).

Payne consistantly takes on two guys in the middle and makes plays. Stats don't tell everything, but:

Seth Payne 58 tackles, 4 sacks
Vince Wilfork 54 tackles, .5 sacks
Casey Hampton 42 tackles, 0 sacks
Jamal Williams 53 tackles, 0 sacks

Yeah sometimes stats are misleading, but it sure is odd that Payne as the clearly inferior player has the clearly superior stats--doesn't mean he is the best, but seems to me it weighs heavily against the assertion that he is the clear weak link on the D.

As for Gabe Watson, yeah he was underwhelming in college... so underwhelming that he is a projected top 40 pick by pretty much everyone. ...that he would be a top 20 pick if there wasn't a question about his work ethic (as there always seems to be about guys his size).

Thanks, isn't that what I said?--underwhelming because of poor work ethic, fine to take in the 2nd round. And no there are not always questions about guys his size.

... and you try to compare him to Watson who is built for nothing else but a 3-4 NT.

Do they even teach people what a simile is anymore? I said his situation would end up like TJ's--i.e. rotating in behind someone else. Nothing in that implies or compares the two players in any other respect.

chuckm
02-02-2006, 09:28 AM
2) Gabe Watson, NT Michigan


for heaven's sake, noooooooooo .... we already have too many interior DLmen .... either 1 or 2 gap it doesn't matter ... we can make do with what we have ..... OL, LB, DE, TE are all infinitely better choices :twocents:

infantrycak
02-02-2006, 09:31 AM
for heaven's sake, noooooooooo .... we already have too many interior DLmen .... either 1 or 2 gap it doesn't matter ... we can make do with what we have ..... OL, LB, DE, TE are all infinitely better choices :twocents:

In Apoch's defense on this one--he was responding to the possibility the Texans might stick with a 3-4. I doubt he would make that recommendation if they are moving to a 4-3.

chuckm
02-02-2006, 09:33 AM
In Apoch's defense on this one--he was responding to the possibility the Texans might stick with a 3-4. I doubt he would make that recommendation if they are moving to a 4-3.

ok but IMO that just makes his argument weaker not stronger ...

bckey
02-02-2006, 11:33 AM
There is only one interior lineman I would want this year and that is Haloti Ngata. I doubt the Texans will draft a dt early or at all.

Apoch
02-02-2006, 11:48 AM
Don't have to be told--it is easy to see. That contrasts starkly with other folks going down and/or getting replaced without any significant drop off.

Exactly. One of the points being made was that if we were going to use mainly a 3-4 there better be more than just Payne at the NT position. Once again, Payne is a good pass rusher from the NT spot, and he plays the position well enough. Looking at the situation further, however, will show that Payne is already 30, has had some injury concerns, and likely will not be able to play at the level he is now for very much longer. If the 3-4 were to be the main defense for the future, the Texans would need not only someone to provide depth for next year but someone who could take over in a year or two and maintain or improve Payne's level of play.

If simply adding depth was the answer then Montavious Stanley, Babatunde Oshinowo, or even Steve Fifita would be good answers. I, however, am talking about the long term stability of the position if indeed a NT is needed. From what Kubiak has said, however, we can understand that the Texans will switch between a 3-4 and a 4-3 this coming year. This would actually be ideal with the personel we have considering we lack depth at some of the fundementally important positions in the 3-4.

Payne consistantly takes on two guys in the middle and makes plays. Stats don't tell everything, but:

Seth Payne 58 tackles, 4 sacks
Vince Wilfork 54 tackles, .5 sacks
Casey Hampton 42 tackles, 0 sacks
Jamal Williams 53 tackles, 0 sacks

Yeah sometimes stats are misleading, but it sure is odd that Payne as the clearly inferior player has the clearly superior stats--doesn't mean he is the best, but seems to me it weighs heavily against the assertion that he is the clear weak link on the D.

You are right, stats (especially from a position like NT) are misleading. In this situation they are very misleading because Payne himself gets more of a chance to pad his stats. I'll explain...

Offenses, in the NFL, will attack a defense where it is weak. If you are weak in run defense, they will run the ball at you. If you are weak at defending the pass, they will air it out. If you are consistently weak at either of those areas then you will see plenty of tackles for that area of the defense. This is because they are continually put in the position to make the tackle.

I'll use Denver as an example. Denver had the #2 rush defense in the NFL (only by like a half a yard per game), but it was one of the worst teams in terms of pass defense. Why? Because Denver lacked a pass rush, consistently shut down the running game early, and jumped out to early leads teams found themselves passing a lot against Denver. The Broncos' coverage didn't suck by any means (in fact they were 2nd in the league in Interceptions), but because this is the way defenses attacked them you can see it in the statistics.

Denver's Tackling leaders:
Ian Gold, 88
Nick Ferguson, 79
Al Wilson, 72
Domonique Foxworth, 70
Champ Bailey, 64
John Lynch, 61
D.J. Williams, 55
Darrent Williams, 53

Not a single lineman in the top 8 tacklers. The closest player was Trevor Pryce with 33. The Broncos' two starting safeties, two corners, and even the nickel corner were in the top 8. That is pretty much the entire secondary. The leader was the WLB who they use constantly in coverage.

Now lets look at the Texans:
Morlon Greenwood, 112
DaShon Polk, 93
Dunta Robinson, 88
C.C. Brown, 79
Robaire Smith, 68
Seth Payne, 58
Marcus Coleman, 52
Shantee Orr, 50

The two middle LBs lead the team in tackles as would be expected of a 3-4 defense, with the best tackler on the team (yes we all know D-Rob is a great tackler and makes plays he shouldn't have to) coming in 3rd, and the SS - a very important spot in the 3-4 - coming in 4th. Right afterward, however, we see the two players who shouldn't be making tackles in a 3-4. ...and just for argument's sake, if you combine Travis Johnson's and Gary Walker's stats (who basically split time) they would collectively rank 7 right behind Payne.

This shows that the Texans' run defense is poor, but of course you could have just looked at their Rush Defense ranking to see that. Still, in order to show how Payne's stats mean little it had to be said. As for his 4 sacks, yes, I said from the beginning that he is a good pass rusher.

Thanks, isn't that what I said?--underwhelming because of poor work ethic, fine to take in the 2nd round. And no there are not always questions about guys his size.

Even Haloti Ngata has been questioned about his stamina and drive, and he was a finalist for the Defensive MVP award. Why do you think D-lineman are rotated all the time? Do LBs rotate frequently? Do you see the Jets take Ty Law out of the game, or the Broncos remove Champ Bailey? No, lineman rotate because it is hard for a 6'4" 300 lb guy to basically wrestle with a guy his size, get knocked down, and get back up over and over. The zone blocking scheme the Texans will employ this year actually makes it a point to knock lineman down all game long so the running game flourishes in the 4th quarter.

Watson is not nearly the lazy player a guy like Rodrique Wright (Texas) is. He has shown the type of character he has on several occasions, and when you play for an underachieving staff like the Wolverines it is expected that the players will end up... well, underachieving. Watson has still dominated from a 4-3 NT (not his natural position), and I again make the claim that you most likely haven't even watched him for a whole game.

Do they even teach people what a simile is anymore? I said his situation would end up like TJ's--i.e. rotating in behind someone else. Nothing in that implies or compares the two players in any other respect.

I apologize, I read to much into it and thought you were refering to Watson being the same kind of pick that Johnson was last year. I do have to say, however, that it generally takes a year or two for D-lineman to adjust to the pro game. So, the fact that Watson would back up Payne for a year is really expected. Wilfork did it under Traylor, and we all know who is more talented out of the two.

bigTEXan8
02-02-2006, 12:37 PM
My question is this:

What bar are we going to find "On the Rocks" Shannahan after home games?

infantrycak
02-02-2006, 01:16 PM
If the 3-4 were to be the main defense for the future, the Texans would need not only someone to provide depth for next year but someone who could take over in a year or two and maintain or improve Payne's level of play.

If you had stated things this way originally, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I suspect we differ on degree but not substance predominately.

You are right, stats (especially from a position like NT) are misleading. In this situation they are very misleading because Payne himself gets more of a chance to pad his stats.

Your explanation has some truth to it, but there is a flip side reality which is that Payne was almost a half time player last year with all the 2 DLmen sets the Texans ran.

Right afterward, however, we see the two players who shouldn't be making tackles in a 3-4. ...

IMO this is an overstatement. The 3-4 is not designed for the primary responsibility of the DL to be making the tackles, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be where they can. It is like folks saying 3-4 DLmen aren't supposed to get sacks. The system is set up where they will get less tackles and less sacks but a well run 3-4 affords good DLmen plenty of opportunity to get both. Your list for the Texans is also skewed by the turnstyle at LB this year.

Why do you think D-lineman are rotated all the time?

I didn't say anything about DLmen not needing rest more than other positions. The point was not every DT's motivation and effort are questioned. Your blowing that concern out of proportion in any event as I said using a 2nd on him would be fine if we were sticking with a 3-4. In any event, this is all useless as we appear to be moving to a primary 4-3.

cadahnic
02-02-2006, 01:18 PM
My question is this:

What bar are we going to find "On the Rocks" Shannahan after home games?


who cares as long as he is paying.