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View Full Version : Reggie Bush in an NFL Offense


Dr. Toro
02-01-2006, 12:35 AM
You got to see it in 2005. Unfortunately, you saw what he could do in an NFL offense against NCAA defense. This post isn't about hating Reggie, it's just about reality.

According to Kiper, 6 USC starters will probably go in the first round this year (Tutui, Justice, Bird, Leinart, White, Bush). 3 more are near locks to be first rounders in 2007(Smith, Jarrett, Baker). The scrubs on the squad are Kirtman (top 5 FB) Matua (top 10 guard) and Kalil (C who could go high in 2007). That's an offensive unit with 9 NFL 1st round picks. Carroll's a former NFL HC too. Just keep things in perspective. Reggie didn't have to do any tough running, and teams couldn't focus on him. He'll be lucky to have this much talent around him in the NFL.

Well, how did he do against an elite college D, you ask?

Reggie had some success, butTexas showed how a fast D can contain him. 7 of his 13 carries were for 3 yards or less. He didn't turn the corner with his usual regularity. Texas D is fast; Mack Brown has a long standing practice of moving players down a position, i.e. OLB to DE, and then bulking them up. However, Texas D isn't NFL fast or NFL solid.

stevo3883
02-01-2006, 12:44 AM
i agree that Texas did a good job against Reggie, they were trying to.

Kelson was assigned to Bush (kelson is a converted safety with 4.45 speed) and Huff was also used to keep an eye on Bush(huff obviously NFL caliber-top 15 pick)


Texas defense was perfect for stopping Bush. Chizik loves small fast lb's. Kelson is only 215-220, Killebrew is around 230, Bobino about 230, Harris 230.

Thier speed helped with bush, but hurt in containing White. But this was the perfect plan, because Bush can beat you, White can't.

College Texan
02-01-2006, 12:56 AM
But having bush in an NFL offense will force alot of attraction to him. No one or two LB will contain him. You have to sacrafice a DB and a LB at least. You will have to even play DE contain to stop him from going wide. So if we get Bush I expect alot of WR sets with DD at tailback, Short 5 yard passes to the TE or a WR, More deep passes to Andre, Pump fakes to reggie, screens to reggie, playaction with reggie, and to really confuse the defense alot of motion with reggie.

Big B Texan Fan
02-01-2006, 12:59 AM
Like I said before, Carrol had 2 chances to give the ball to Bush in the final seconds of the Notre Dame game and chose not to. Probably in large part due to the man acoss from him, Charlie Weiss, and his NFL style defense. He wasn't even an option on the 4th and 9 that kept them alive. They lose that game and it's a UT v Penn National Champioship. Don't even get me started on the Bush only touched the ball a couple of times crap or that Carroll made a mistake by not having him in there. He earned the right to be on the bench at those moments or to not be the option at those moments. He'll run arund like crazy in between the 20's but where's he gonna be when it's crunch time, 1st and goal, 2nd and goal, 3rd and goal, 4th and goal. I think a coach that recruited him and that has known him and knows what to expect out of him for the past 3-4 years not using him speaks volumes about what you can xpect out of him when the game is on the line,.....NOTHING cuz he should be on the sidelines watching, likes he's been all alng when the big games, seasons even, are on the line.

College Texan
02-01-2006, 01:12 AM
I would like to be reminded of how many times we were near the endzone this year. So if he can get us there then there's no problem in giving the ball to someone else in those situations. And on long downs he will see the field in the NFL. He's a far more useful back than DD on the obvious passing situations seeing how well he pass protects when he has to and how he can create seperation and burn you with his speed, he will be getting alot of quick slants or long balls.

Nighthawk
02-01-2006, 01:55 AM
Bush will be great for about 6 games then he will be not quite neutralized, but reduced to a good NFL back. Or worse. He simply doesn't have the tools at the next level, he won't dominate with speed, he can't dominate with power, and his vaunted "moves" can be matched by many NFL defenders.

So he'll get away for a couple of games, then his deal is done. And we will have used the first pick in the draft for a slightly improved DD.

Go figure.

beerlover
02-01-2006, 02:23 AM
Reggie is a elite talent & will never be just an average back, whatever that is :rolleyes:
I see only upside for Reggie Bush not to mention he'll get the chance to be a receiver & that should free up AJ. the point of not being used enough by USC simply means he will be well rested without injury or wear & tear concerns. y'all way off base here not to mention he is a class individual who will be very popular with fans and players alike :ok:

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 07:26 AM
But having bush in an NFL offense will force alot of attraction to him. No one or two LB will contain him. You have to sacrafice a DB and a LB at least. You will have to even play DE contain to stop him from going wide. So if we get Bush I expect alot of WR sets with DD at tailback, Short 5 yard passes to the TE or a WR, More deep passes to Andre, Pump fakes to reggie, screens to reggie, playaction with reggie, and to really confuse the defense alot of motion with reggie.

not necessarily. Two teams have effectively stopped Steve Smith......and I can't imagine him being faster than Smith, or close to his caliber reciever. If he's on the line, he's going to get bumped........ or they will keep him in front of them.. if the ball goes anywhere near him, they will blow him up..... he might catch the ball, he might be upset that his QB keeps throwing it to him...

You may be right, Reggie may be all that and a bag of chips....... but he may not be. He'll be lucky to face a defense as bad as UT twice a year at the next level.

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 07:29 AM
Bush will be great for about 6 games then he will be not quite neutralized, but reduced to a good NFL back. Or worse. He simply doesn't have the tools at the next level, he won't dominate with speed, he can't dominate with power, and his vaunted "moves" can be matched by many NFL defenders.

So he'll get away for a couple of games, then his deal is done. And we will have used the first pick in the draft for a slightly improved DD.

Go figure.


at worst, he'll be a good kick/punt returner.... & we'd have spent a #1 overall on a backup to Mathis.

bdiddy
02-01-2006, 07:58 AM
Something your forgetting about USC and all of the potential first round picks is that Pete Carrol has said Bush is the "best player" he has ever coached. What does this say about his talent?

The NFL is built around speed. Bush has remarkable speed. I agree that speed alone will not be sufficient to succeed in the league. However, Bush has more than just pure speed - he has remarkable instincts, good vision, good hands, and a stellar work ethic.

Will Bush have to run more than a mere sweep left or sweep right? Yes, but you have to realize that every team that played USC, including Texas, went in with the sole intention of neutralizing Bush. USC was a very good team, but Texans are going to have a variety of weapons as well. AJ, DD, Mathis, an improved TE, and Carr. This is more talent then he was surrounded by last year.

Another thing that plays to Bush's speed is the difference in the hash marks on the pro field vs. the college field. The pro field is built to be wider and thus more condusive to speed. NFL defenses will not have the advantage of a shorter sideline like Texas was able to utilize in the Rose Bowl.

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 08:19 AM
bDiddy, good post........

he'd make a great addition to the team.


I still don't see using the #1 overall to get him though.

tulexan
02-01-2006, 09:00 AM
Yeah but while that NFL speed defense was focusing on him, the rest of the offensive players lit them up. Reggie is used as a decoy a lot of the time on offense just like Randy Moss.

Lucky
02-01-2006, 09:29 AM
...USC was a very good team, but Texans are going to have a variety of weapons as well. AJ, DD, Mathis, an improved TE, and Carr. This is more talent then he was surrounded by last year.
Really? USC had Jarrett, White, Smith, Byrd, and Leinart. Not even mentioning future stars like Fred Davis and Patrick Turner. Or the loaded USC O-line. And the talent is relative in that a lot of teams have talent in the NFL, while few have ever been so fortunate on the college level as USC. My guess is that if Bush comes here, he will be like a former Yankee that also named Reggie. The straw that stirs the drink.

Apoch
02-01-2006, 09:47 AM
This is the wrong comparison. You cannot devalue Bush by saying the talent on his team was too good. Where would Portis be if people had said, "Ah! He is on that National Championship Miami team that dominates everyone. He will be no good in the NFL because...

a) He is only 205lbs and that is too small for the NFL." (yes this was an argument against him)
b) He can't break tackles very well and is all speed."
c) He has no hands; fumbles and drops passes too much."
d) He played with an amazing offensive line, and he won't have that in the NFL."
e) Has an attitude."

Denver took Portis in the 2nd round, and he turned out to be the best RB of the entire class. Denver did some slight modifications to its running system, and they used Portis's skill set to dominate teams for two years. Portis never even started a full year and still had 1500 yds in his first two seasons.

Lets compare Portis to Bush shall we?

Speed? They are basically the same in straight line speed.
Quick? Explosive? Both hit their cut at full speed, but Bush has far more agility, and can make better cuts (and faster cuts) than Portis.
Size? What'da ya know... they are basically the same size. Portis played at 200lbs for his time in Denver, and gained 10 lbs to handle the load more in Washington. Bush is 1 inch taller than Portis too.
Hands? Portis doesn't fumble as much as he did early on in his career, but his hands have never really improved much. He dropped screen passes on consecutive plays in '04 once. Bush has better hands than most wideouts and only fumbled once in '05 (the lateral he tried in the NC).
Attitude? Bush is a model student, model citizen, and has a fantastic work ethic. Portis threatened to hold out his rookie year, and the next to years after that he did the same.

From this I would say that if Bush turns out even as good as Portis the Texans would be doing wonderfully. Portis made Denver's offense scary, and if you hadn't heard...

THE TEXANS WILL BE RUNNING DENVER'S OFFENSE!!

...not USC's, not Green Bay's, not even Helix High School's... Denver's the #1 rushing offense over the past 10 years. The offense that can have any back gain 1000 yds. The one that took Elway to the Superbowl, Plummer to consistency, and no namers like Reuben Droughns to stardom.

If you must, you should determine what skill sets, talents, and capabilities Bush will bring to the pro system the Texans will be running. He will be fantastic in a Texan uniform. Understand it. Believe it. Cheer for him when he is drafted. :texflag:

kastofsna
02-01-2006, 09:59 AM
meh, everyone said the same things of ronnie brown last year. 907 yards on 207 attempts (4.4 ypc), 4 TDs. 32 catches, 232 yards, 1 TD. splitting time with davis will be great for bush, much like it was great for brown

Dr. Toro
02-01-2006, 10:16 AM
Denver took Portis in the 2nd round, and he turned out to be the best RB of the entire class. Denver did some slight modifications to its running system, and they used Portis's skill set to dominate teams for two years. Portis never even started a full year and still had 1500 yds in his first two seasons.

From this I would say that if Bush turns out even as good as Portis the Texans would be doing wonderfully. Portis made Denver's offense scary, and if you hadn't heard...

That's the idea, they spent a second rounder on him. When he got too pricey they traded him, replaced him with another noname back, and didn't miss a beat. It's a system where the RB doesn't need to be a worldbeater, he just needs to do a few things really well. Yes Bush is fast and has great moves, but your comparison is bad because Portis is a good inside runner, which matters in the NFL and in this system.

I think you should discount his numbers. My point is, he wasn't like DeAngelo Williams back there, with the opposing team devoting all their time and scouting into stopping him. Sure, defenses were paying attention to Bush, but they weren't ignoring anybody else. Again, what you saw from the USC offense this year is the closest thing to watching an NFL team play a college one. Bush deserves some credit for that, and he certainly opened things up for others, but he had it VERY EASY this year.

kastofsna
02-01-2006, 10:26 AM
portis had some similar knocks on him coming out of college. size, durability, the fact that he played behind the best line in the country, etc.

MorKnolle
02-01-2006, 11:01 AM
You got to see it in 2005. Unfortunately, you saw what he could do in an NFL offense against NCAA defense. This post isn't about hating Reggie, it's just about reality.

According to Kiper, 6 USC starters will probably go in the first round this year (Tutui, Justice, Bird, Leinart, White, Bush). 3 more are near locks to be first rounders in 2007(Smith, Jarrett, Baker). The scrubs on the squad are Kirtman (top 5 FB) Matua (top 10 guard) and Kalil (C who could go high in 2007). That's an offensive unit with 9 NFL 1st round picks. Carroll's a former NFL HC too. Just keep things in perspective. Reggie didn't have to do any tough running, and teams couldn't focus on him. He'll be lucky to have this much talent around him in the NFL.

Well, how did he do against an elite college D, you ask?

Reggie had some success, butTexas showed how a fast D can contain him. 7 of his 13 carries were for 3 yards or less. He didn't turn the corner with his usual regularity. Texas D is fast; Mack Brown has a long standing practice of moving players down a position, i.e. OLB to DE, and then bulking them up. However, Texas D isn't NFL fast or NFL solid.

I agree with your first part about getting to see what he can do in an NFL offense against an NCAA defense, but USC will not have six players in this year's 1st round, I haven't heard Kiper say that yet but if he actually did he's an *****. Bush, Leinart, and White should all be 1sts, Byrd will probably be a mid-2nd rounder, Lutui will probably not even go in the 2nd, and definitely not in the 1st (OGs rarely go in the 1st, and if one does it will likely be Jean-Gilles, but I still don't see that happening), and Justice has a decent chance to go in the 1st, but I still don't see him as the 2nd best OT in the draft like Kiper currently says.

jerek
02-01-2006, 11:24 AM
Bush will be great for about 6 games then he will be not quite neutralized, but reduced to a good NFL back. Or worse. He simply doesn't have the tools at the next level, he won't dominate with speed, he can't dominate with power, and his vaunted "moves" can be matched by many NFL defenders.

So he'll get away for a couple of games, then his deal is done. And we will have used the first pick in the draft for a slightly improved DD.

Go figure.

This argument bothers me - not because I necessarily disagree with (though I do in parts) - but because it applies almost word for word to Vince Young, and yet Nighthawk and others refuse to see it.

I think Bush will do well as a speed back (ala Tatum Bell with a few more moves), that is it. If we draft him, he is a viable RBBC option to tandem with Davis. As for the "next Gayle Sayers" and all of that crap ... we'll have to wait and see, but I'm not holding my breath.

Dr. Toro
02-01-2006, 12:20 PM
MorKnolle-

Kiper's latest mock (post Senior Bowl) has Bush and Leinart going 1-2. Justice going 14 to Philly. White going 17 to Minny. Byrd going 27 to Carolina. Lutui going 30 to Indy. Its's on ESPN Insider. He might be a fool, but these guys are good.

tulexan
02-01-2006, 12:25 PM
MorKnolle-

Kiper's latest mock (post Senior Bowl) has Bush and Leinart going 1-2. Justice going 14 to Philly. White going 17 to Minny. Byrd going 27 to Carolina. Lutui going 30 to Indy. Its's on ESPN Insider. He might be a fool, but these guys are good.

Maybe we shouldn't have drafted Andre Johnson then. I mean he was on a team that was even better than this USC team.

Kaiser Toro
02-01-2006, 12:29 PM
MorKnolle-

Kiper's latest mock (post Senior Bowl) has Bush and Leinart going 1-2. Justice going 14 to Philly. White going 17 to Minny. Byrd going 27 to Carolina. Lutui going 30 to Indy. Its's on ESPN Insider. He might be a fool, but these guys are good.

I would have to bet that it is more than likely they will be selected in the first than not. NFL front offices are like lemmings and the Trojans are the flavors of the day, much like Miami has been.

MorKnolle
02-01-2006, 12:29 PM
MorKnolle-

Kiper's latest mock (post Senior Bowl) has Bush and Leinart going 1-2. Justice going 14 to Philly. White going 17 to Minny. Byrd going 27 to Carolina. Lutui going 30 to Indy. Its's on ESPN Insider. He might be a fool, but these guys are good.

OK, I don't have access to that, but that's interesting. No way Lutui goes in the 1st round, I doubt it if he goes in the 2nd round either. I also don't see Byrd going that early, I think Davis, Pope, and probably Marcedes will go in front of him, and I don't see 4 TEs going in the 1st round. I'm still not sure if Winston Justice will be the 2nd OT taken, but we'll have to wait and see on that, and wait until the Combine to see how they all work out.

Kaiser Toro
02-01-2006, 12:31 PM
OK, I don't have access to that, but that's interesting. No way Lutui goes in the 1st round, I doubt it if he goes in the 2nd round either. I also don't see Byrd going that early, I think Davis, Pope, and probably Marcedes will go in front of him, and I don't see 4 TEs going in the 1st round. I'm still not sure if Winston Justice will be the 2nd OT taken, but we'll have to wait and see on that, and wait until the Combine to see how they all work out.

Lutui is the question mark. Byrd is moving fast, but could be at the top of the second.

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 12:32 PM
From this I would say that if Bush turns out even as good as Portis the Texans would be doing wonderfully. Portis made Denver's offense scary, and if you hadn't heard...

THE TEXANS WILL BE RUNNING DENVER'S OFFENSE!!
Cheer for him when he is drafted. :texflag:

If more people were making the comparison to Clinton Portis, then I wouldn't argue at all with the pick. The only reason I am against it, is that most people see him as a Marshall Faulk, or a Brian Westbrook. Although they are special players in their own right, neither belong on the Houston Texans football club.

BuffSoldier
02-01-2006, 01:18 PM
Bush will be a very good NFL back, but I dont think that he will be the type of player lot of people are expecting him to be.

Texas played with small LBs because they are fast and could contain, every NFL linebacker is fast. See DJ, Hawk, Greenway, Ray Lewis, Cato June and the other LBs. His speed wont be negated, but it wont be as much of a factor in the NFL, he will not be able to turn the corner as much or without someone to meat him. He wont be an effective inside runner thats not what he is, he a skat back.

If you want a slot receiver draft Sinorice Moss in the second with the extra pick we picked up for the trade down.

yourfavoritetexan42
02-01-2006, 02:09 PM
This is the wrong comparison. You cannot devalue Bush by saying the talent on his team was too good. Where would Portis be if people had said, "Ah! He is on that National Championship Miami team that dominates everyone. He will be no good in the NFL because...

a) He is only 205lbs and that is too small for the NFL." (yes this was an argument against him)
b) He can't break tackles very well and is all speed."
c) He has no hands; fumbles and drops passes too much."
d) He played with an amazing offensive line, and he won't have that in the NFL."
e) Has an attitude."

Denver took Portis in the 2nd round, and he turned out to be the best RB of the entire class. Denver did some slight modifications to its running system, and they used Portis's skill set to dominate teams for two years. Portis never even started a full year and still had 1500 yds in his first two seasons.

Lets compare Portis to Bush shall we?

Speed? They are basically the same in straight line speed.
Quick? Explosive? Both hit their cut at full speed, but Bush has far more agility, and can make better cuts (and faster cuts) than Portis.
Size? What'da ya know... they are basically the same size. Portis played at 200lbs for his time in Denver, and gained 10 lbs to handle the load more in Washington. Bush is 1 inch taller than Portis too.
Hands? Portis doesn't fumble as much as he did early on in his career, but his hands have never really improved much. He dropped screen passes on consecutive plays in '04 once. Bush has better hands than most wideouts and only fumbled once in '05 (the lateral he tried in the NC).
Attitude? Bush is a model student, model citizen, and has a fantastic work ethic. Portis threatened to hold out his rookie year, and the next to years after that he did the same.

From this I would say that if Bush turns out even as good as Portis the Texans would be doing wonderfully. Portis made Denver's offense scary, and if you hadn't heard...

THE TEXANS WILL BE RUNNING DENVER'S OFFENSE!!

...not USC's, not Green Bay's, not even Helix High School's... Denver's the #1 rushing offense over the past 10 years. The offense that can have any back gain 1000 yds. The one that took Elway to the Superbowl, Plummer to consistency, and no namers like Reuben Droughns to stardom.

If you must, you should determine what skill sets, talents, and capabilities Bush will bring to the pro system the Texans will be running. He will be fantastic in a Texan uniform. Understand it. Believe it. Cheer for him when he is drafted. :texflag:



excellent post


Also Denver never had a WR like Andre Johnson. And I think Carr raw talent is over plummers (i know, bold statement, but Carr has yet to be given a chance, and if you say that he already has had his, put Tom Brady in our offense, and Texans would still fail)

HoustonFrog
02-01-2006, 02:11 PM
excellent post


Also Denver never had a WR like Andre Johnson. And I think Carr raw talent is over plummers (i know, bold statement, but Carr has yet to be given a chance, and if you say that he already has had his, put Tom Brady in our offense, and Texans would still fail)

Rod Smith is pretty damn good and has done it consistently for years. They also had McCaffery with him awhile back. Andre has more overall talent Ibelieve but it isn't like they were just OK receivers.

HoustonFrog
02-01-2006, 02:13 PM
If more people were making the comparison to Clinton Portis, then I wouldn't argue at all with the pick. The only reason I am against it, is that most people see him as a Marshall Faulk, or a Brian Westbrook. Although they are special players in their own right, neither belong on the Houston Texans football club.

I have been saying Portis all along. They are the same size coming out of college. Portis just recently bulked up for the Skins. He was a home run hitting, hits the edge back for Denver. I love VY but I think Bush will be the man here and will draw defenses attention even when we he doesn't get the ball.

BeReal
02-01-2006, 02:39 PM
L. White and R. Bush kind of remind me of last years draft when a team had two 1st round caliber backs, remember Auburn? Ronnie Brown was a bruiser, whereas Cadillac Williams was the slasher.

Both had good rookie seasons, but C. Williams had a stand out year and look at what he was able to do. He's listed at 5'10 and 215'ish. His listed 40 time is 4.51, not even close to Bush's 4.3 speed, and Williams was able to do plenty of damage to NFL offenses. I'm not sure but wasn't Williams named NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year? IMO Bush is head and shoulders above C. Williams and I just can't see any NFL team passing on such a weapon.

With Bush in the backfield with DD, teams can't rush DC like they did before for fear of a screen to either side and it makes the pass blocking just that more effective. Or you can audible Bush in motion, effectively taking a LB or nickle back with him. I could go on but you get the picture.

My point is Bush WILL help our pass blocking (our run blocking is actually decent, we just need better offensive coaches which is what we have now).

Then again I could be all wrong.

AustinJB
02-01-2006, 02:47 PM
L. White and R. Bush kind of remind me of last years draft when a team had to 1st round caliber backs, remember Auburn? Ronnie Brown was a bruiser, whereas Cadillac Williams was the slasher.

Both had good rookie seasons, but C. Williams had a stand out year and look at what he was able to do. He's listed at 5'10 and 215'ish. His listed 40 time is 4.51, not even close to Bush's 4.3 speed, and Williams was able to do plenty of damage to NFL offenses. I'm not sure but wasn't Williams name NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year? IMO Bush is head and shoulders above C. Williams and I just can't see any NFL team passing on such a weapon.

With Bush in the backfield with DD, teams can't rush DC like they did before for fear of a screen to either side and it makes the pass blocking just that more effective. Or you can audible Bush in motion, effectively taking a LB or nickle back with him. I could go on but you get the picture.

My point is Bush WILL help our pass blocking (our run blocking is actually decent, we just need better offensive coaches which is what we have now).

Then again I could be all wrong.

I see what you're saying and agree to an extent.

Except we DID see Cadillac running between the tackles. I remember watching him w/ Auburn and seeing him fight through numerous tackles, dragging people, fighting for extra yards. That was one of the things that impressed me with him; the fact that he was small but still a grinder. The same can be said of other smallish backs in their college careers (Sanders, Portis, etc.) I may be mistaken, but I haven't seen ANY film of Bush doing that....he's always outrunning/juking people around the edge. Doesn't necessarily mean that Bush CAN'T do it, just hasn't before.

BuffSoldier
02-01-2006, 03:53 PM
excellent post


Also Denver never had a WR like Andre Johnson. And I think Carr raw talent is over plummers (i know, bold statement, but Carr has yet to be given a chance, and if you say that he already has had his, put Tom Brady in our offense, and Texans would still fail)

So what you guys are saying is that Gary Kubiak is bringing in an offensive style that allows RBs with good vision and cutback ability to accel?? Am I correct??

Well doesnt it seem like Dominick Davis (who has very good vision) would not only accel in this offense, but be able to consistently run for around 1500 yards in this new scheme... so why draft Bush who really just runs to the outside basically all the time.

Dominick Davis in Chris Palmers offense is a 1,100 yard back.

Dominick Davis in a Gary Kubiak offense with, hopefully, a Mike Sherman coached O-line is a 1500 yard back.


:confused:

Texans_Chick
02-01-2006, 04:06 PM
I think one of the things that the MB struggles with is human's innate distrust of things too good to be true.

Bush, both with his stats and his eye-popping play, was an amazing college player.

Young, both with his stats and his eye-popping play, was an amazing college player.

The things that they were able to do on the football field were mindblowingly cool. For me, it was like watching a scene out of the Matrix--they were going regular smooth speed, and everyone else has slowed down. Or they were going really fast, and everyone else was going regular speed.

Anytime you see something that seems too good to be true, you want to know what the catch is. What the problem is. The other shoe dropping. So you start searching fot those things.

Sometimes there IS a catch.

Sometimes there isn't.

And what is cool in the sports realm, is when you pick a player, and they end up being even better than you thought.

Just off the top of my head, the players that come to mind as having games that some folks didn't think would translate to the NFL are Barry Sanders and Steve McNair. I am not comparing Bush or VY to either one of them, other than the idea that their games wouldn't translate.

I am sure you could think of more people in that category. And also ones where the critics were right.

I find the discussion of the relative merits of VY and Bush to be interesting, even though some are bored to tears. (Though I must confess, I prefer such conversations to actually have facts in them and for people not to be ridiculous in their analogies).

I like the concept of actually having an open mind going in to get the pick. Seeing what the upsides and downsides and trades and whatnot are. I truly hope that the staff is going into the evaluations with a completely open mind and are exploring all of our opportunities.

So there you go.

whiskeyrbl
02-01-2006, 04:16 PM
taking into consideration that Bush has been working with LT on his game,i believe he will be prepared for the NFL.Damn the guy bench presses425lb.,i would imagine he can block fairly well.But he is the same size Dorsett was we he came in and people said the same negative things ,like he is not an every down back ,he's to small ect. ect.,and look at the disappoinment he turned out to be.I guess we should'nt take a chance on him.:sarcasm:

Apoch
02-01-2006, 04:54 PM
That's the idea, they spent a second rounder on him. When he got too pricey they traded him, replaced him with another noname back, and didn't miss a beat. It's a system where the RB doesn't need to be a worldbeater, he just needs to do a few things really well. Yes Bush is fast and has great moves, but your comparison is bad because Portis is a good inside runner, which matters in the NFL and in this system.

I think you should discount his numbers. My point is, he wasn't like DeAngelo Williams back there, with the opposing team devoting all their time and scouting into stopping him. Sure, defenses were paying attention to Bush, but they weren't ignoring anybody else. Again, what you saw from the USC offense this year is the closest thing to watching an NFL team play a college one. Bush deserves some credit for that, and he certainly opened things up for others, but he had it VERY EASY this year.

Once again, the truth about Denver's system is muddled. Yes, they traded Portis when he got to pricey. Yes they can pop all sorts of names in the position and gain 1000 yds. ...but to say they didn't miss a beat is wrong.

If you really look at Denver's success over the years, you will see that the offense was the most dynamic and effective with Terrell Davis and Clinton Portis. Yes, Mike Anderson rushed for 1500 yds his rookie year. Yes, Olandis Gary rushed for 1100 in only 12 games his rookie year. However, no, the Denver offense was not just as good in those years.

While the system is fantastic and effective with average running backs, it becomes dominating with REAL talent. That is why Portis averaged an amazing 5.5 yds per rush in his second year in Denver. That is why Terrell Davis was NFL MVP, Superbowl MVP, and a member of the 2k yard club.


You're right, however, the RB only really needs two things; vision to see the cut lane and enough athleticism to explode through it. Mike Anderson, Ron Dayne, and Olandis Gary are all average guys who can do those two things well. By doing those two things you can garuntee positive yardage if the blocking job is average, and between 5-10 if the blockers can get to the second level of the "zone." The thing is, guys like Clinton Portis and Terrell Davis made the offense scary because they would do more than simply be proficient. They made the system dynamic and scary. That is what Bush can do.

I don't know if you've watched as much of USC as I have over the past two years, but I don't know where all this "Bush can't run inside" stuff comes from." I saw him exploding between C and G for big games many times, and I used the Clinton Portis comparison because in those instances he reminded me of... well, Clinton Portis.

If you still think that being a tackle breaking power runner is necessary in the zone blocking scheme, I would say...

1) Read this short explanation of Denver's zone blocking scheme (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=266134#post266134) because you don't really know how it works and what is required of it.

2) Watch this video (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=609&videoID=167), but imagine #5 in place of #26 and a starry eyed bull instead of a angry horsey on the helmet.

Bush is perfect for this system. I truly think there is no running system in the NFL that is better suited to his strengths than the one that Houston will soon be running. If it can turn a pip-squeak nothing scatback like Warrick Dunn into a serious threat imagine what it can do to a talent like Bush.

Some of you guys must not have been watching the same Reggie Bush I have, or you just don't know how good this system is...

Porky
02-01-2006, 05:38 PM
Way to bring it Apoch. Agree or disagree your posts in this thread are outstanding.

Texans>Colts
02-01-2006, 05:39 PM
You got to see it in 2005. Unfortunately, you saw what he could do in an NFL offense against NCAA defense. This post isn't about hating Reggie, it's just about reality.

According to Kiper, 6 USC starters will probably go in the first round this year (Tutui, Justice, Bird, Leinart, White, Bush). 3 more are near locks to be first rounders in 2007(Smith, Jarrett, Baker). The scrubs on the squad are Kirtman (top 5 FB) Matua (top 10 guard) and Kalil (C who could go high in 2007). That's an offensive unit with 9 NFL 1st round picks. Carroll's a former NFL HC too. Just keep things in perspective. Reggie didn't have to do any tough running, and teams couldn't focus on him. He'll be lucky to have this much talent around him in the NFL.

Well, how did he do against an elite college D, you ask?

Reggie had some success, butTexas showed how a fast D can contain him. 7 of his 13 carries were for 3 yards or less. He didn't turn the corner with his usual regularity. Texas D is fast; Mack Brown has a long standing practice of moving players down a position, i.e. OLB to DE, and then bulking them up. However, Texas D isn't NFL fast or NFL solid.

I thought Jarrett was a Junior in 07 draft.:confused:

BuffSoldier
02-01-2006, 06:42 PM
I thought Jarrett was a Junior in 07 draft.:confused:

Yes,like Bush was a JR this year, but if he decides to enter the 2007 draft, he may be the first WR selected.

YodAa
02-01-2006, 07:33 PM
You got to see it in 2005. Unfortunately, you saw what he could do in an NFL offense against NCAA defense. This post isn't about hating Reggie, it's just about reality.

According to Kiper, 6 USC starters will probably go in the first round this year (Tutui, Justice, Bird, Leinart, White, Bush). 3 more are near locks to be first rounders in 2007(Smith, Jarrett, Baker). The scrubs on the squad are Kirtman (top 5 FB) Matua (top 10 guard) and Kalil (C who could go high in 2007). That's an offensive unit with 9 NFL 1st round picks. Carroll's a former NFL HC too. Just keep things in perspective. Reggie didn't have to do any tough running, and teams couldn't focus on him. He'll be lucky to have this much talent around him in the NFL.

Well, how did he do against an elite college D, you ask?

Reggie had some success, butTexas showed how a fast D can contain him. 7 of his 13 carries were for 3 yards or less. He didn't turn the corner with his usual regularity. Texas D is fast; Mack Brown has a long standing practice of moving players down a position, i.e. OLB to DE, and then bulking them up. However, Texas D isn't NFL fast or NFL solid.

OK your getting your stats from Mel Kiper? That guy really doesn't know his NFL. Bird is a mid 2nd - mid 3rd, not 1st, and Tutui is a late 2nd late 3rd.

And I guess you could say his debut vs a pro Defense he had 13 carries for 82 yards, thats 6.3 YPC! DD Averages less than 4 YPC so hey I think I'll take my chances with a 6.3 YPC guy.

Also good talent around is awesome to have, just look at Shaun and his MVP OLine, but then just look at Barry Sanders and what he did with not as much talent and hey its still pretty good

DaveCarr@andrejohnson.net
02-01-2006, 07:53 PM
thank you
finally some one agrees. bush #1
everybody is like vince young should be number one. who won the heisman. bush or young
bush
young or carr
carr
y wouldnt u go with bush

Texans>Colts
02-01-2006, 07:54 PM
Yes,like Bush was a JR this year, but if he decides to enter the 2007 draft, he may be the first WR selected.

ok:ok:

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 09:19 PM
Bush is perfect for this system. I truly think there is no running system in the NFL that is better suited to his strengths than the one that Houston will soon be running. If it can turn a pip-squeak nothing scatback like Warrick Dunn into a serious threat imagine what it can do to a talent like Bush.

Some of you guys must not have been watching the same Reggie Bush I have, or you just don't know how good this system is...

You Know what?? as great as this sounds......... I'm still not buying it.

I mean all this Kubiak wants Carr, Kubiak likes Carr talk, Reeves likes Carr..... as why we shouldn't expect the Texans to draft Young......... it works here too..
Kubiak wanted Domanick when he was in Denver...... Who wouldn't??
Imagine how David's game is going to improve, with the coaching he's about to recieve..... with the line he's going to get. with the new talent that is going to be around him.....
Just imagine DD, Wells, & Vernard.......... new coaching.... new line.... new gaps...... new lanes.... new talent in front of them... we will get 2200yrds+ out of our run game. At a fraction of the cost of a number 1 overall. It is possible, that DD may be out for the season after the first game.... but that's ok, we've got Wells, and Morency will get a few more carries, and we'll still be in the 2000yrd range. We've seen lot's of evidence of this possibility over the last three years....... it's darn near a given. Dang near. If Carr can't get it done with a 2000yrd running game, then David Carr can't get it done.

Now let's look at the Quarterback situation?? David Carr may be the next big thang........ 4000yrd seasons...... 50TDs per year....... 5 int's..... 5 consecutive probowls, 3 MVP trophies.......


or he might be out of the league in three years. We've seen enough evidence to equally support either conclussion.... actually most of the evidence supports the out of the league in 3 year theory. I don't mean to rag on Carr, but come on........ he didn't have a chance........ so what.... We've seen him goof up, nothing as bad as Aaron Brooks taking a 50 yard sack, or tossing the ball up in the air.......... straight up. But he has done some things that makes no sense........ running out of bounds, with the ball firmly in his hand. We've seen him run out of the pocket before the pocket collapsed.... we've seen him run right into the guy his blocker is blocking..... we've seen him curl up like a baby, waiting for someone to jump on him.

But Kubiak knows better than me..... McNair's judgement may be cloudy, and his adoration of Carr may have been what was holding Dom Caper's(took an Expansion team to the NFC championship game in 4 years). But if You've got all these experts(coaches, not ESPN analyst) who says that Carr's got what it takes........ great.... fine....... let's do what it takes to make him as good as he can be........ but if we are going to draft someone with that first overall pick, let's use it to get us some insurance behind the biggest question mark on the team........

We've got the RBBC thing down pretty good. Let Wells go, we can replace him with a much more RBBC friendly pick.
Vince is special....... to deny that is just insane...... it is not uncommon to draft a QB, and sit him on the bench. You've got a Coach, and an assistant coach who are supposed to have a thing about developing QBs... We don't have a special QB right now......... I mean we could but we don't know. 4 years, and we don't know. He didn't have a fair chance, yeah, yeah, yeah. Drafting Vince doesn't mean that he doesn't get that chance. I don't want to franchise, Carr, that would be stupid....... pick up his two year option, and let us evaluate our QB situation in two years....... Carr will either be our guy, or Vince will. Carr should be worth more in two years, we'd have done our duty, if we decide to go with Vince. If not, he'll still be valuable..... The only reason I can see someone against this idea, is because they know Carr is worth more now, than he will be in two years.....

There is absolutely no reason to Draft Bush, not for us..... we've got a contingency plan for DDs health. Our running game was better than middle of the road last year, and we've got reason upon reason to believe it will be better. Hype, flash.... that's it..... he's talented. I'm not saying he isn't He's going to be awesome in the NFL...... He's going to break a lot of records. He'll be a league MVP time and time again. but we need him like we need a whole in our collective heads.