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BIG RED
01-31-2006, 04:06 PM
The 2006 NFL Draft propects include many talented players such as Vince Young, Reggie Bush, Matt Lineart, and many others. But, the Texans need to focus on two aspects rather than selecting a player who thay can expect profits from. The Offensive Line and the Defense as a whole.

Imagine this, AJ Hawk, Haloti Ngata, Gabe Watson, or other players on the Texans defense. But imagine,

D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Virginia
Eric Winston, Miami (FL)
Jonathan Scott, Texas
Marcus McNeill, Auburn
Andrew Whitworth, L.S.U.
Justin Blalock, Texas
Mike Otto, Purdue
Ryan Harris, Notre Dame
Daryn Colledge OT Boise State
Max Jean-Giles, Georgia
Davin Joseph, Oklahoma

As a potenal draft pick.

Remeber, St Louis picked Orlando Pace the OT, look how good he became.

I think the Texans should draft down and pick up atleast two players in the first round most likely they should get Gabe Watson as a NT and D'Bricksaw Fergueon as an OT. These big men could really make a difference!

:homer: What Would Homer Do?!

jgite
01-31-2006, 04:30 PM
You can take Justin Blalock off the list. He is coming back for his senior year to win another NC

BuffSoldier
01-31-2006, 05:12 PM
The only way that we could select Gabe Watson is to trade down, then trade back up out of the second. But with Robaire Smith, a player who was a very good DT in the 4-3 and Johnson, who played 4-3 in college, I think that DE would be more of a concern. Nice post though, welcome to the board.:)

cadahnic
01-31-2006, 05:16 PM
Understand the D'Brick love, but if I trade down I only get Mario Williams, as of right now. A DE that can change the game just means so much and we will win more games in the long run with a good defense than with an offense. I would then either trade back in and get Eric Winston or hope he falls to me in the second since I doubt that I would take Jon Scott to play RT. Then in the third I am looking for Mangold and Jonathan Joseph or Demario Minter.

DaveCarr@andrejohnson.net
01-31-2006, 05:18 PM
why are u giving up the chance to draft bush? next year if we still suck which we probably still will, maybe not last place but still wil, we can draft and o line or trade and stuff

BuffSoldier
01-31-2006, 05:30 PM
why are u giving up the chance to draft bush? next year if we still suck which we probably still will, maybe not last place but still wil, we can draft and o line or trade and stuff

So you are counting on the Texans sucking???? Wow. You are more of a Bush bandwagon fan than you are a Texans fan. Whoever will help us win the most games is who we should draft. Not the flashy guy and hope we suck next year.

DaveCarr@andrejohnson.net
01-31-2006, 05:32 PM
dude we are gonna suck for eternity if we dont start to pick up some stars

Texans>Colts
01-31-2006, 05:36 PM
So you are counting on the Texans sucking???? Wow. You are more of a Bush bandwagon fan than you are a Texans fan. Whoever will help us win the most games is who we should draft. Not the flashy guy and hope we suck next year.

Well i wouldn't want 2 not pick a guy who has talent 2 b as good as barry sanders. i don't care if we already have davis. switch off and on the carry's. And we ren't that good of a team. I am hoping 4 a a good season. i don't think we will make the playoffs, but hell, i would b happy with a 8-8 or 7-9 eason. A sign of development

DaveCarr@andrejohnson.net
01-31-2006, 05:38 PM
of course who wouldnt and excactly we should get bush and keep drafting stars

Nawzer
01-31-2006, 06:24 PM
I've said this a lot of times on this board and I'll say it again: We can draft o-linemen later in the draft. It has been proven time and again that you don't need to spend a high draft pick on an o-linemen. Either draft Bush or trade down to pick a Mario Williams or A.J. Hawk. I prefer Bush because he gives us a lot of options on offense.

BuffSoldier
01-31-2006, 06:27 PM
Well i wouldn't want 2 not pick a guy who has talent 2 b as good as barry sanders. i don't care if we already have davis. switch off and on the carry's. And we ren't that good of a team. I am hoping 4 a a good season. i don't think we will make the playoffs, but hell, i would b happy with a 8-8 or 7-9 eason. A sign of development

Barry Sanders never won a SuperBowl, but Orlando Pace and Jonathan Ogden bothe have one. LT doesnt have one either, neither has Vick, Manning, Donovan McNabb, TO...

But guess what Brady has 3. Hes not an awesome talent with superstarts all over the field. He is a very good QB that makes good decisions and has a full team of good players. Not superstars, good players. If the past has shown you anything, it is that no one player can make a team, and you need a full compliment.

Oh and Big Ben is in one too. He isnt an amazing QB, they dont have an amazing star RB, Hines Ward is the closest to a superstar player that you will find on the team.

Walter Jones, another Franchise LT also has a chance to win one on Sunday. Oh and other than Sean Alexander, who is a very good back not an amazing one, what superstar is on the Seatte team.

dude we are gonna suck for eternity if we dont start to pick up some stars

Oh yeah, draft a lot of superstars so we can be overcap in 3 years and have to dissassemble the whole squad.

Oh stars like the 2003 Offensive Rookie of the Year Dominick Davis, and a star LT named D'Brickashaw Ferguson. Just because you dont score points doenst mean that youdont mean just as much to your team.



Oh and last but not least, since you guys are all so high on college skill players from the Rose Bowl, dont forget that Texas and USC had arguably the 2 best offensive lines in the NCAA.

The last two dynasties, New England and the Dallas Cowboys both had very good o-lines. The Cowboys o-line of the 90's was massive and the NE's isnt to shaby, I know Brady doesnt get sacked 63 times a year. Oh and what about Denvers back-to-back superbowls won behind their great zone blocking o-line.
Just something to chew on.

nunusguy
01-31-2006, 06:58 PM
Either draft Bush or trade down to pick a Mario Williams or A.J. Hawk. I prefer Bush because he gives us a lot of options on offense.
I'm with you on the Bush pick Nawzer, but if we opt for a trade I'm hearing that A.J. Hawk probably wouldn't be a potential choice for us. The thing is, Hawk would probaly be a OLB even in the 4-3 and we've got some people already on our roster who can play that position. We'll need a MLB if we go
4-3, but they can be had, even good ones, without using a first round pick.
But a big time DE like Williams is most likely on our short list if we trade down.

Nawzer
01-31-2006, 07:26 PM
I did a little research to find out how many first round o-linesmen are playing or are part of these really good offenses. O.k. I'll start with the Patriots and I won't go over every single o-linesmen, just enough to make a point.

Patriots:
Tom Ashworth-Undrafted free agent by the 49ers originally.
Nick Kaczur- 3rd Rd.
Dan Koppen- 5th Rd.
Matt Light-2nd Rd.

Steelers:
Alan Faneca- 1st Rd.
Marvel Smith-2nd Rd.
Max Starks-3rd Rd.

Seahawks:
Walter Jones- 1st Rd.
Steve Hutchinson- 1st Rd. (17 overall)
Chris Gray-5th Rd.
Sean Locklear-3rd Rd.

KC Chiefs:
Willy Roaf-1st Rd.
Brian Waters- Rookie free agent with Dallas originally
Casey Wiegmann- Rooke free agent with Colts originally
Will Shields- 3rd Rd.
John Welbourn- 4th Rd.

As you can see there are a lot of 3rd and 4th rounders, and even some rookie free agents in that list. There are first rounders in this list and they are great players, but my point is that you don't have to draft an o-linesman high to have successful and potentially great o-line. Besides it's not like have one high first round o-line guy like D'Brickshaw is going to cure our problems suddenly. You have to remember it's a line not just one single player! And a rookie and no matter how talented you are will struggle a lot, specially at the left tackle position. I think with Gary Kubiak in and if we draft some guys later in the draft and sign some veterans we should be solid at that position. If Bob McNair wants to win now (like he said the other day) we are better off drafting Reggie Bush who will contribute now instead of having to wait a few years for a guy like D'Brickshaw to develop. :twocents:

YoungTexanFan
01-31-2006, 07:38 PM
dude we are gonna suck for eternity if we dont start to pick up some stars

I'm going to appolagize in advance to the moderators.

[Edit--with that intro you had to suspect what would happen--let's try to be civil--infantrycak] We have had the "star first" approach for a while. Bush lovers this year, will want Peterson next year, and the Slattor (sp) from W. VA. Yes, we can split the carries between all 4 RB's, because they are "stars". We don't need to consider the cap, nor do we need to consider our horrendous offensive line that has really yet to improve to the league average even.

Your right. What was I thinking?!?!?! What kind of fan am I for wanting to build a top notch trench before we take ANOTHER skill player that we don't need. :brickwall :dangit: :bag: :thud:

O-Linemen can be stars in their own way, but they create other stars also.


Again, I appolagize for my harshness.

YoungTexanFan
01-31-2006, 07:40 PM
I did a little research to find out how many first round o-linesmen are playing or are part of these really good offenses. O.k. I'll start with the Patriots and I won't go over every single o-linesmen, just enough to make a point.

Patriots:
Tom Ashworth-Undrafted free agent by the 49ers originally.
Nick Kaczur- 3rd Rd.
Dan Koppen- 5th Rd.
Matt Light-2nd Rd.

Steelers:
Alan Faneca- 1st Rd.
Marvel Smith-2nd Rd.
Max Starks-3rd Rd.

Seahawks:
Walter Jones- 1st Rd.
Steve Hutchinson- 1st Rd. (17 overall)
Chris Gray-5th Rd.
Sean Locklear-3rd Rd.

KC Chiefs:
Willy Roaf-1st Rd.
Brian Waters- Rookie free agent with Dallas originally
Casey Wiegmann- Rooke free agent with Colts originally
Will Shields- 3rd Rd.
John Welbourn- 4th Rd.

As you can see there are a lot of 3rd and 4th rounders, and even some rookie free agents in that list. There are first rounders in this list and they are great players, but my point is that you don't have to draft an o-linesman high to have successful and potentially great o-line. Besides it's not like have one high first round o-line guy like D'Brickshaw is going to cure our problems suddenly. You have to remember it's a line not just one single player! And a rookie and no matter how talented you are will struggle a lot, specially at the left tackle position. I think with Gary Kubiak in and if we draft some guys later in the draft and sign some veterans we should be solid at that position. If Bob McNair wants to win now (like he said the other day) we are better off drafting Reggie Bush who will contribute now instead of having to wait a few years for a guy like D'Brickshaw to develop. :twocents:


That list shows that most of the LT's are 1st rounders. There will be exceptions, but generally that is the way to go. Guards do not go in the 1st round as a general rule, but there are exceptions also. We do not need top round OG's. We need a TOP TIER LT.

Nawzer
01-31-2006, 07:52 PM
O.k. say if we do draft D'Brickshaw Ferguson there is absolutely no guarantee that he will be a left tackle. Look at Robert Gallery..wasn't he going to be the next great left tackle? But as far as I can remember he played right tackle the past 2 seasons. Wasn't Jordan Gross of the Panther's supposed to be a left tackle as well? He's also playing right tackle. And even if Ferguson is our left tackle there is no guarantee that he will become "top tier" type of player for us. Yes, he had a very good career at college and he's had a couple of good workouts. He also played pretty well at the Senior Bowl from what I've read and heard. But for me personally, if I were to compare Reggie Bush and D'Brick I would still pick Reggie Bush. Based on solely what we have seen from both these players in college I can say that Reggie Bush is the better player and better prospect than D'Brickshaw is. Both might have outstanding NFL careers or both might be busts but as of today right now, I would go with Bush. I realize that our o-line is needs to be fixed but if we want to win right now draft some o-linesmen later in the draft, we sign some vets, and let Kubiak and his guys scheme and coach the players. I believe we will have a solid not spectacular but a solid o-line that will help our offense move the ball consitently. And with Reggie Bush in our backfield we will potentially have a great running game.

BuffSoldier
01-31-2006, 07:55 PM
Patriots:
Tom Ashworth-Undrafted free agent by the 49ers originally.
Nick Kaczur- 3rd Rd.
Dan Koppen- 5th Rd.
Matt Light-2nd Rd.

Steelers:
Alan Faneca- 1st Rd.
Marvel Smith-2nd Rd.
Max Starks-3rd Rd.

Seahawks:
Walter Jones- 1st Rd.
Steve Hutchinson- 1st Rd. (17 overall)
Chris Gray-5th Rd.
Sean Locklear-3rd Rd.

KC Chiefs:
Willy Roaf-1st Rd.
Brian Waters- Rookie free agent with Dallas originally
Casey Wiegmann- Rooke free agent with Colts originally
Will Shields- 3rd Rd.
John Welbourn- 4th Rd.



3 out of the 4 LTs on that list are first rounders. The best OC in the draft can possibly be found in the 3rd round, and possibly the best OG Gean-Milles may fall to the second. We NEED a franchise LT.

Every Pro Bowl OT in the 2006 Pro Bowl was a first rounder!!!!!

WOW

YoungTexanFan
01-31-2006, 08:07 PM
O.k. say if we do draft D'Brickshaw Ferguson there is absolutely no guarantee that he will be a left tackle. Look at Robert Gallery..wasn't he going to be the next great left tackle? But as far as I can remember he played right tackle the past 2 seasons. Wasn't Jordan Gross of the Panther's supposed to be a left tackle as well? He's also playing right tackle. And even if Ferguson is our left tackle there is no guarantee that he will become "top tier" type of player for us. Yes, he had a very good career at college and he's had a couple of good workouts. He also played pretty well at the Senior Bowl from what I've read and heard. But for me personally, if I were to compare Reggie Bush and D'Brick I would still pick Reggie Bush. Based on solely what we have seen from both these players in college I can say that Reggie Bush is the better player and better prospect than D'Brickshaw is. Both might have outstanding NFL careers or both might be busts but as of today right now, I would go with Bush. I realize that our o-line is needs to be fixed but if we want to win right now draft some o-linesmen later in the draft, we sign some vets, and let Kubiak and his guys scheme and coach the players. I believe we will have a solid not spectacular but a solid o-line that will help our offense move the ball consitently. And with Reggie Bush in our backfield we will potentially have a great running game.

D'Brick is a LT only. He does not have the body or natural mean streak to play RT. Gallery might not move to LT until force, he loves playing RT by all reports. It was also reported that he COULD start at LT for them, but they NEED him at RT. Gross has been a littler slower developing, but D'brick is a better prospect coming out than Gross was. Gross is also doing quite well at RT, but should move very quickly to LT.

Also, Fergueson has a much higher ceiling than bush at their respective positions. Bush is pretty much what he will be his entire career, and that may not be bad, but Fergueson has more potential, fits our scheme perfectly, and fills a 4 year void.

YoungTexanFan
01-31-2006, 08:08 PM
3 out of the 4 LTs on that list are first rounders. The best OC in the draft can possibly be found in the 3rd round, and possibly the best OG Gean-Milles may fall to the second. We NEED a franchise LT.

Every Pro Bowl OT in the 2006 Pro Bowl was a first rounder!!!!!

WOW

BINGO

BuffSoldier
01-31-2006, 08:16 PM
Based on solely what we have seen from both these players in college I can say that Reggie Bush is the better player and better prospect than D'Brickshaw is.

Ferguson is arguably the second best player in the draft. If an LT is the second best player in the draft that consists or Reggie Bush, AJ Hawk, Mario Williams, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, and DeAngelo Williams and we are able to get extra picks and still get the 2nd best player in the draft then OMG.

BuffSoldier
01-31-2006, 08:22 PM
D'Brick is a LT only. He does not have the body or natural mean streak to play RT. Gallery might not move to LT until force, he loves playing RT by all reports. It was also reported that he COULD start at LT for them, but they NEED him at RT. Gross has been a littler slower developing, but D'brick is a better prospect coming out than Gross was. Gross is also doing quite well at RT, but should move very quickly to LT.

Also, Fergueson has a much higher ceiling than bush at their respective positions. Bush is pretty much what he will be his entire career, and that may not be bad, but Fergueson has more potential, fits our scheme perfectly, and fills a 4 year void.

Exactly, he will fill a 4 year void, oh and you better believe that in 03 had we had the chance to pick Ferguson or AJ we would be missing a pro bowl WR, and I dont mean Mathis.

run-david-run
01-31-2006, 08:55 PM
dude we are gonna suck for eternity if we dont start to pick up some stars
Yeah, thats the way to win! Just like the Patriots, Eagles, Steelers and Seahaws (the last 4 teams to make the SB) all went star-happy. The way to win is to find guys that fit your system while addressing a need. As a 2-14 team, needs is one thing we are not lacking in. TRADE DOWN!!!

LBC_Justin
01-31-2006, 08:57 PM
3 out of the 4 LTs on that list are first rounders. The best OC in the draft can possibly be found in the 3rd round, and possibly the best OG Gean-Milles may fall to the second. We NEED a franchise LT.

Every Pro Bowl OT in the 2006 Pro Bowl was a first rounder!!!!!

WOWHere is the deal with the pro bowl. It is a horrible way of rating how good a LT is. Why? LT have no stats so they often make the pro bowl on reputation alone, even when they don't play that well.

For example. Their are easily at least 10 Left Tackles that had a better season than Jonathan Ogen did. But he got voted in.

But I agree the game is won and lost in the trenches. But In this year's case, I think Reggie Bush is a rare athlete, that should be taken or we should get the greatest deal a team has ever been given. Other than Lebron James came out can you ever remember a player in so much demand in a draft. Our last game was called the "Bush Bowl" not the "D'Brick Bowl" and last year their was not "Alex Smith Bowl" or the year before their was no "Eli Manning Bowl".

If we draft Bush or we trade down(no farther than #6) on a historically great deal, i'll be happy. If we take a QB with the #1 overall pick regardless of who it is I will be disappointed.

stevo3883
01-31-2006, 10:13 PM
Yeah, thats the way to win! Just like the Patriots, Eagles, Steelers and Seahaws (the last 4 teams to make the SB) all went star-happy. The way to win is to find guys that fit your system while addressing a need. As a 2-14 team, needs is one thing we are not lacking in. TRADE DOWN!!!


wow, you were pretty off in that post. Those teams did go "star happy"

Patriots- Corey Dillon & Rodney Harrison
Eagles- TO and Jevon Kearse
Steelers- Big Ben
Seahawks- Hasselback emerging got them there

seriously, the stars made these teams so much better, not finding guys that "fit their system"- what a dom capers thing to say

big homey
01-31-2006, 10:21 PM
Barry Sanders never won a SuperBowl, but Orlando Pace and Jonathan Ogden bothe have one. LT doesnt have one either, neither has Vick, Manning, Donovan McNabb, TO...

But guess what Brady has 3. Hes not an awesome talent with superstarts all over the field. He is a very good QB that makes good decisions and has a full team of good players. Not superstars, good players. If the past has shown you anything, it is that no one player can make a team, and you need a full compliment.

Oh and Big Ben is in one too. He isnt an amazing QB, they dont have an amazing star RB, Hines Ward is the closest to a superstar player that you will find on the team.

Walter Jones, another Franchise LT also has a chance to win one on Sunday. Oh and other than Sean Alexander, who is a very good back not an amazing one, what superstar is on the Seatte team.



Oh yeah, draft a lot of superstars so we can be overcap in 3 years and have to dissassemble the whole squad.

Oh stars like the 2003 Offensive Rookie of the Year Dominick Davis, and a star LT named D'Brickashaw Ferguson. Just because you dont score points doenst mean that youdont mean just as much to your team.



Oh and last but not least, since you guys are all so high on college skill players from the Rose Bowl, dont forget that Texas and USC had arguably the 2 best offensive lines in the NCAA.

The last two dynasties, New England and the Dallas Cowboys both had very good o-lines. The Cowboys o-line of the 90's was massive and the NE's isnt to shaby, I know Brady doesnt get sacked 63 times a year. Oh and what about Denvers back-to-back superbowls won behind their great zone blocking o-line.
Just something to chew on.
This post made me cry with joy. Well, maybe I'm exaggerating, but this was seriously one of the best posts I've read in a while.

BIG RED
01-31-2006, 11:26 PM
BIG RED :brickwall


Many of you NFL reasearchers out their can note this, had Tom Brady been on a team like the 49ers (No offense) I highly dought he would as good as he is now. Its not about Reggie Bush, he is hardly the best RB in the NCAA. In case you haven't noticed Bush cannot run up the middle lest say on 4th and inches. He's built to run sweeps but doesnt have the size or build for a "run up the middle guy". Also, coaching is an issue. Curtis Martin, Tom Brady, Breet Favre, these guys were drafted much later in their draft era. Yet, do to good coaching they were able to reach their potental.

Coaching is an issue, I would rather save money get a good skills coach draft a linemen and WIN rather than jack up the ticket prices and make money off of people who just want to see Bush. Remember this quote by Joe Horn.

"Any player who thinks he's the hype or the S____or bigger than the league can note one true hard fact, no player in the history of the NFL has or ever well lead a team to the Super Bowl and win by himself, its all a team effort. Give me Barry Sanders and Troy Aikman but a soory pice of s____ O-line and D and I guarantee you they well suck for ever no matter how hard they try!"

Basically, if you think drafting Bush will lead us to the playoff, than you have your facts wrong. Many players have came to this league, like Maurice Clareet who won a NCAA championship but was cut from his own team. Even though he sat out for a couple of years, my point is no one person can forever change a team especaially in the game of football.


PS. HOW CAN I JOIN THE D'BRICK CLUB?

infantrycak
01-31-2006, 11:52 PM
wow, you were pretty off in that post. Those teams did go "star happy"

Patriots- Corey Dillon & Rodney Harrison
Eagles- TO and Jevon Kearse
Steelers- Big Ben
Seahawks- Hasselback emerging got them there

seriously, the stars made these teams so much better, not finding guys that "fit their system"- what a dom capers thing to say

I'd say he got it right in the first place.

Patriots--Corey Dillon was nobodies star when he left the Bengals after getting replaced. He was considered a malcontent out of character gamble by the Patriots. Rodney Harrison was released by the Chargers.
Eagles--TO and Kearse were big name additions, but that is not how they built the team. Remember they had been to the NFC championship game 3 years in a row. They were supposed to be final pieces. They also released other players along the way like both starting CB's, Jeremiah Trotter, etc.
Pittsburgh--Big Ben wasn't even supposed to start his rookie year and didn't until Maddox went down. They didn't build a great team around him, he was another late addition to a great existing team.

That isn't building around stars.

stevo3883
02-01-2006, 12:06 AM
I'd say he got it right in the first place.

Patriots--Corey Dillon was nobodies star when he left the Bengals after getting replaced. He was considered a malcontent out of character gamble by the Patriots. Rodney Harrison was released by the Chargers.
Eagles--TO and Kearse were big name additions, but that is not how they built the team. Remember they had been to the NFC championship game 3 years in a row. They were supposed to be final pieces. They also released other players along the way like both starting CB's, Jeremiah Trotter, etc.
Pittsburgh--Big Ben wasn't even supposed to start his rookie year and didn't until Maddox went down. They didn't build a great team around him, he was another late addition to a great existing team.

That isn't building around stars.

i didnt say building around stars. I said they got those stars, and those are the guys who took them to the next level. I dont think system players will do that for you.

Corey Dillon was a top 10-15 back when the pats got him, and Harrison was released for salary reasons if i remember correctly.

the eagles got to 3 straight NFC championships, correct. and they lost all 3 of them. Those two took them to the next level.


I wasnt talking about big ben's rookie year... where did that come from. This is his second year, and hes taken them to the super bowl. the team drafted a skill position in the top of the first round (aka star grabbing) They drafted him to be their qb of the future and do what he is doing now

infantrycak
02-01-2006, 12:26 AM
i didnt say building around stars. I said they got those stars, and those are the guys who took them to the next level. I dont think system players will do that for you.

Corey Dillon was a top 10-15 back when the pats got him, and Harrison was released for salary reasons if i remember correctly.

Corey Dillon had already lost his job and only had 541 yds rushing at 3.9 ypc before he left Cincy. He was also a 30 year old RB and signed for something in the $2 mil range--not star FA money. Guess we will just disagree on the star power of that pick-up. Harrison was not a star brought in to upgrade the team (although he has played very well in NE), he was a player they hoped could replace most of what they were losing in their own cap cutting of Lawyer Milloy (4 time pro-bowler including the two years prior to the cut).

the eagles got to 3 straight NFC championships, correct. and they lost all 3 of them. Those two took them to the next level.

TO didn't play in the playoffs. Kearse I will give you as a big FA, but the Eagles could afford him because they were hugely under the cap by traditionally letting people go when they became expensive.

stevo3883
02-01-2006, 12:56 AM
Corey Dillon had already lost his job and only had 541 yds rushing at 3.9 ypc before he left Cincy. He was also a 30 year old RB and signed for something in the $2 mil range--not star FA money. Guess we will just disagree on the star power of that pick-up. Harrison was not a star brought in to upgrade the team (although he has played very well in NE), he was a player they hoped could replace most of what they were losing in their own cap cutting of Lawyer Milloy (4 time pro-bowler including the two years prior to the cut).



TO didn't play in the playoffs. Kearse I will give you as a big FA, but the Eagles could afford him because they were hugely under the cap by traditionally letting people go when they became expensive.

yeah how could we forget the TO saga in the playoffs last year? "Will TO make it back in time?!?!" or "TO gives interview from his plastic healing bubble" but he did give that team almost a new persona.

and about dillon, he was hurt nearly the whole year (i remember, he was on my fantasy team :crying: ) and rudi emerged. so they figured why do we need both and traded dillon since he was older. i believe he fetched a 2nd rounder (mightve been 3rd) thats pretty high value for a 30 yr old rb, he was still elite when they picked him up.

Blake
02-01-2006, 02:25 AM
I have been back and forth on this issue. Reggie, Vince, trade down. Ive been worse than John Kerry. Ok, that was lame...

But I think having Bush, and Young, and Lienart, at the top of OUR draft, is a blessing. We have 3 players that teams will trade up for. Be glad that we dont have last years draft, where the 9ners couldnt sell the top pick, and settled on a 2nd rate QB. Dont you think the 9ners would have rather traded down, got a #1 pick next year, and Braylon Edwards, or Demarcus Ware, and Odell Thurman, or Brodney Pool? And they would have a #1 pick this year, in a stacked draft. The best Ive personally ever seen.

I think you have to trade down, if you can get no lower than 6, and get a #1 pick next year, and #2 pick this year.

@6 you can have either Bush, Lienart, Young, Mario Williams, AJ Hawk, or Ferguson. Then we have 2 2nd round picks, and 2 3rd round picks.

Round1: Mario Williams - Start from day one.
Round2: Manny Lawson - Will back up Walker for 3 games. Then take over once he goes down with an injury.
Round2: Daryn Colledge - Our next Left Tackle.
Round3: Davin Joseph - Starter from day one. Weigert loses training camp battle.
Round3: Brian Calhoun - Yeah yeah, his name isnt reggie bush. But he is a damn good RB, and Wells has one foot out the door IMO.

Ill take Mario Williams, Manny Lawson, and a round 1 pick next year for Reggie bush, 9/10 times.

beerlover
02-01-2006, 02:38 AM
Round1: Mario Williams - Start from day one.
Round2: Manny Lawson - Will back up Walker for 3 games. Then take over once he goes down with an injury.
Round2: Daryn Colledge - Our next Left Tackle.
Round3: Davin Joseph - Starter from day one. Weigert loses training camp battle.
Round3: Brian Calhoun - Yeah yeah, his name isnt reggie bush. But he is a damn good RB, and Wells has one foot out the door IMO.

Ill take Mario Williams, Manny Lawson, and a round 1 pick next year for Reggie bush, 9/10 times.

incredibly strong list of prospects you got there TND I could live with that but I could also live with:

Round 1 Reggie Bush
Round 2 Manny Lawson
Round 3 Davin Joseph
Round 3 David Thomas

Maddict5
02-01-2006, 06:39 AM
of course who wouldnt and excactly we should get bush and keep drafting stars

next year you'll want AP or brady quinn or some1 but i agree with you the texans will keep sucking.....until they address their o-line

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 07:45 AM
yeah how could we forget the TO saga in the playoffs last year? "Will TO make it back in time?!?!" or "TO gives interview from his plastic healing bubble" but he did give that team almost a new persona.

and about dillon, he was hurt nearly the whole year (i remember, he was on my fantasy team :crying: ) and rudi emerged. so they figured why do we need both and traded dillon since he was older. i believe he fetched a 2nd rounder (mightve been 3rd) thats pretty high value for a 30 yr old rb, he was still elite when they picked him up.

Didn't TO get them Homefield advantage in the playoffs?? something they desperately thought they needed?? If Peyton Manning wasn't such a freak that year, I think D McNabb would've lead the league in touchdown passes, largely due to Terrell Owens.
I wasn't impressed with Jevon's work that year(I think he was hurt most of the time) while it might not have worked the way they planned, they were shooting for stars to get them to the next level, so it's clear(I think) that they do have the "we need stars" mentality.

New England ..... Corey Dillon was supposed to give them a true running game, even though they won a SuperBowl without one...... I don't know if they were star struck as much as seeing value in a player who was replaced, and injured the previous year...

Pitsburgh........ they've been chasing stars for quite some time now. Most of them haven't panned out, but they've been actively seeking stars.............. Kordell, Duece, Plaxico, Randle-El...... They've done a lot better with their value picks, but I bet they'll still be looking for stars to solidify thier position in the AFC.

infantrycak
02-01-2006, 09:42 AM
Didn't TO get them Homefield advantage in the playoffs?? something they desperately thought they needed??

The Eagles were at home in the 2002 and 2003 NFC Championship games.

There is a difference between building your team primarily thru the draft and trying to build your team around stars. Every team gets a 1st round draft pick every year. Obviously they hope to draft a star, and the higher the draft in the round, the more of a star they hope for. That's why Big Ben is no evidence of trying to build around stars. By that standard, the Texans, Lions, etc. would be teams trying to build around stars. The Eagles, Steelers and Patriots are the consistant examples used by commentators of teams who will keep trying to build thru the draft and will let stars go generally to keep the cap under management rather than breaking the bank on big names. There are some contrary examples--they aren't robotic in never getting big FA's, but it isn't what they are known for.

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 10:06 AM
wow, you were pretty off in that post. Those teams did go "star happy"

Patriots- Corey Dillon & Rodney Harrison
Eagles- TO and Jevon Kearse
Steelers- Big Ben
Seahawks- Hasselback emerging got them there

seriously, the stars made these teams so much better, not finding guys that "fit their system"- what a dom capers thing to say

It is a widely held view that the Patriots win with the TEAM concept. This is a view that I share. I have to say that I think you are off in your assessment.

Is Big Ben a "star"? If being the ultimate team player makes you a star, then okay. He does what the game plan calls for. In some cases, he throws the ball 14 times in a game and sometimes 30. The Steelers mainly win because of their defense. Their offense was ranked 16th. The offense's main contribution is they don't do things to lose the game.


The antithesis of this argument is the Colts. We all know how far they get in the playoffs.

MorKnolle
02-01-2006, 11:11 AM
why are u giving up the chance to draft bush? next year if we still suck which we probably still will, maybe not last place but still wil, we can draft and o line or trade and stuff

This draft is very good on OLine, and that has been our #1 glaring weakness since year #1 yet we have continually ignored it. I would not be overly upset at drafting Bush, but I think Carr is solid at QB and I think Davis/Morency/Wells are solid at RB, and either way without a much improve OLine our offense is going to continue to struggle. We need to address OLine now because it frequently takes them almost a year to become good, so we have to address that now since this is a great draft for it and get that taken care of before the rest of our good players start getting old. If we still end up sucking next year and are at the top of the draft (and after trading down we should have an extra 1st rounder next year), then Adrian Peterson will be available and in my opinion he is more of a franchise RB anyways and I'd prefer to have him over Bush.

Understand the D'Brick love, but if I trade down I only get Mario Williams, as of right now. A DE that can change the game just means so much and we will win more games in the long run with a good defense than with an offense. I would then either trade back in and get Eric Winston or hope he falls to me in the second since I doubt that I would take Jon Scott to play RT. Then in the third I am looking for Mangold and Jonathan Joseph or Demario Minter.

I would love to get a draft like Mario, Winston, Mangold, and Minter, but unfortunately I don't see that happening. I don't think Mangold or Minter will drop to the 3rd round, maybe Jonathan Joseph will be there. After trading down we should have an extra 2nd this year, so if we get Mario in the 1st we could hopefully grab Winston at #33 (maybe trade up if he isn't going to fall that far), grab Minter or Mangold with our other 2nd, and then grab the best interior OL or CB at #65, depending on what we get in the 2nd (Davin Joseph may fall to the 3rd for our OLineman, otherwise there should be some good CBs available like Jonathan Joseph), and look for a TE with our other 3rd.

TheOgre
02-01-2006, 11:13 AM
Every Pro Bowl OT in the 2006 Pro Bowl was a first rounder!!!!!
WOW

I've been sounding that trumpet for 2 years now. Most of the stud LT's were actually top 10 selections. It is the foundation of the offense. Without a good to great LT, your team will likely never have offensive continuity. I don't consider Pitts a good to great LT.

All that said, I think there are a hand full of OT's in this draft that would be a lock to be a top 20 selection in any other year. The depth is good enough that we can probably get a good LT with the 33rd pick.

MorKnolle
02-01-2006, 11:33 AM
wow, you were pretty off in that post. Those teams did go "star happy"

Patriots- Corey Dillon & Rodney Harrison
Eagles- TO and Jevon Kearse
Steelers- Big Ben
Seahawks- Hasselback emerging got them there

seriously, the stars made these teams so much better, not finding guys that "fit their system"- what a dom capers thing to say

I don't agree with your assessment here. The Eagles had been a solid team for several years (3 straight trips to the NFC championship game) and needed those couple extra star players to get them over the edge, that's when they brought in Terrell Owens and Jevon Kearse, it finally got them into the Super Bowl but didn't win it for them. The Patriots are the same, they had won two Super Bowls and got a great bargain for a great RB (a 2nd round pick, which was the last pick in the 2nd round BTW for a great RB, which was one of the few things that they weren't great at) for Corey Dillon, a malcontent player who had put up 1100+ yard seasons six years in a row to start his career. They had a great team already, they felt they needed an upgrade at RB, and they essentially used the 64th pick in the draft to get a top 10 RB. As for Rodney Harrison, they had already won one Super Bowl, felt they needed to upgrade their secondary, and after Harrison was released from the Bills they added him in free agency, they didn't use a draft pick on him, they didn't trade anyone off, they were able to add a veteran, very good S for their already solid team without giving anything up for him. Calling Big Ben being a star-happy pick is pretty silly. Roethlisberger was not regarded as a hugh NFL star prospect, the Steelers had consistently had a weakness at QB (Tommy Maddox wasn't getting the job done, before him they had guys like Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart, Charlie Batch, etc.), and they used a mid-1st round pick to draft a guy who was a reasonably solid QB prospect and ended up being a great player so far. They didn't ignore other glaring team needs to get him, QB was one of their highest needs, and they obviously had a very solid defense and good offense already built up. I don't know how drafting Hasselbeck and him finally emerging as a star QB is considered being "star happy", they acquired him to be the QB for their team, and with good coaching, a great OLine, and a great RB they finally built a solid offense and turned him into a great QB. I think that example proves even more what can happen when you build a great OLine (Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson were both 1st rounders, as was pointed out earlier in this thread), a solid running game, and give your QB the tools to run an offense. Now that their defense is finally emerging with some solid role players they are in the Super Bowl. None of these examples come close to exemplifying teams that went "star happy" and ignored their team needs, they all show what happens when a team is solidly built allround, they identify a big team need and go out and fill that with a great player that they got at a low cost. Mr. Jack Bauer said a better example of a team trying to build with a bunch of stars would be the Colts, although I still don't think that's a great example. The Colts, other than Faulk, Manning, and Edge, have not had a pick in the top 10 in any other draft since 1994, and from what I see in their draft history they got some of these star offensive players in the 1st round, but many times they looked at defense, OLine, and other supporting positions with their top few picks in every draft, and grabbing a guy like Reggie Wayne as a good WR with the 30th pick in the draft is not considered "star grabbing" in my books. In my opinion, the Detroit Lions are the best example of this as they have drafted a QB and three WRs in the 1st round the last four years and concentrated their drafts on picking up these "star" players rather than building the rest of their team up.

MorKnolle
02-01-2006, 11:40 AM
I have been back and forth on this issue. Reggie, Vince, trade down. Ive been worse than John Kerry. Ok, that was lame...

But I think having Bush, and Young, and Lienart, at the top of OUR draft, is a blessing. We have 3 players that teams will trade up for. Be glad that we dont have last years draft, where the 9ners couldnt sell the top pick, and settled on a 2nd rate QB. Dont you think the 9ners would have rather traded down, got a #1 pick next year, and Braylon Edwards, or Demarcus Ware, and Odell Thurman, or Brodney Pool? And they would have a #1 pick this year, in a stacked draft. The best Ive personally ever seen.

I think you have to trade down, if you can get no lower than 6, and get a #1 pick next year, and #2 pick this year.

@6 you can have either Bush, Lienart, Young, Mario Williams, AJ Hawk, or Ferguson. Then we have 2 2nd round picks, and 2 3rd round picks.

Round1: Mario Williams - Start from day one.
Round2: Manny Lawson - Will back up Walker for 3 games. Then take over once he goes down with an injury.
Round2: Daryn Colledge - Our next Left Tackle.
Round3: Davin Joseph - Starter from day one. Weigert loses training camp battle.
Round3: Brian Calhoun - Yeah yeah, his name isnt reggie bush. But he is a damn good RB, and Wells has one foot out the door IMO.

Ill take Mario Williams, Manny Lawson, and a round 1 pick next year for Reggie bush, 9/10 times.

I like the idea of trading down, but I don't like some of your picks. Mario would be great, but I don't see that much of a need for Manny Lawson. Daryn Colledge is not a great LT prospect, he should be a solid RT but I don't like him as a LT, hopefully Eric Winston will fall to the #33 spot and we can grab him there. Davin Joseph would be nice, I'm not sure he'll fall to the 3rd round even though many recent mocks have him going there. I don't understand the Calhoun pick, if we don't get Bush we shouldn't look at RB until maybe late in the draft if there is either a big, bruising RB or another speedster available, I think Davis, Wells, and Morency are a solid trio, and at some point we do need a new TE, and I think the 3rd round would be a good spot for that if one or more of the better guys is available, and if not TE we need to look at CBs.

infantrycak
02-01-2006, 11:43 AM
As for Rodney Harrison, they had already won one Super Bowl, felt they needed to upgrade their secondary, and after Harrison was released from the Bills they added him in free agency, they didn't use a draft pick on him, they didn't trade anyone off, they were able to add a veteran, very good S for their already solid team without giving anything up for him.

Harrison (2 time pro-bowler--released by the Chargers for cap reasons) was actually a replacement for Lawyer Milloy (4 time pro-bowler) who was also released for cap reasons. It was a replacement situation rather than an upgrade.

Blake
02-01-2006, 11:58 AM
I like the idea of trading down, but I don't like some of your picks. Mario would be great, but I don't see that much of a need for Manny Lawson.

I think Smith and Johnson will take over at DT, with Payne a backup, or in a rotation. I also think that we need depth at DE, because Mario Williams will be a rookie, and Walker cant seem to make a full season either. Who would be a better backup? Manny Lawson, or Junior Ioane?

Daryn Colledge is not a great LT prospect, he should be a solid RT but I don't like him as a LT, hopefully Eric Winston will fall to the #33 spot and we can grab him there.

I would bet that Joseph falls to the 3rd, before Winston falls to the 2nd. Colledge would be a great LT IMO. Winston would be a better RT IMO. Winston either isnt fully recovered, or is just slower than he used to be.

Davin Joseph would be nice, I'm not sure he'll fall to the 3rd round even though many recent mocks have him going there.

Yeah, its a hit or miss here. If he is gone, then we can get the next rated guard. But getting a guard was my main point.

I don't understand the Calhoun pick, if we don't get Bush we shouldn't look at RB until maybe late in the draft if there is either a big, bruising RB or another speedster available, I think Davis, Wells, and Morency are a solid trio, and at some point we do need a new TE, and I think the 3rd round would be a good spot for that if one or more of the better guys is available, and if not TE we need to look at CBs.

I think Wells isnt going to resign for what the Texans want to give. And I see one of the other 31 teams wanting him. Calhoun is an all around RB. He would give Morency a run for the #2 spot, even though I am in love with Morency. But I am more in love with a good team with depth. Davis goes down every year. So Morency will take over, with Calhoun behind him, or vice versa.

MorKnolle
02-01-2006, 12:31 PM
I think Smith and Johnson will take over at DT, with Payne a backup, or in a rotation. I also think that we need depth at DE, because Mario Williams will be a rookie, and Walker cant seem to make a full season either. Who would be a better backup? Manny Lawson, or Junior Ioane?


Ioane won't be a 4-3 DE, Babin will move down, Peek can gain 10 lbs. and be a DE, and we can get others for depth (Pettway will be a DE and they've already signed two others to duke it out in camp). Manny Lawson would be a good addition but I don't think we should use our top two picks on DEs.

I would bet that Joseph falls to the 3rd, before Winston falls to the 2nd. Colledge would be a great LT IMO. Winston would be a better RT IMO. Winston either isnt fully recovered, or is just slower than he used to be.

I doubt Winston falls to the 2nd, but I'm hoping he will. Plus if we trade down we'll have an extra 2nd rounder so we could possibly trade back into the late 1st round to grab him if we need to.

Yeah, its a hit or miss here. If he is gone, then we can get the next rated guard. But getting a guard was my main point.

I see your point, I definitely want to get an OG in the draft, and hopefully we can sign LeCharles Bentley in free agency to have him at C/G. Nick Mangold (he's a C in college but could convert to G), Davin Joseph, maybe Mark Setterstrom, or several of those other guys would be nice. Hopefully McKinney will be gone this offseason, and I think Wiegert is still ok for another year, so bringing in a C and G that can start for us next year would be good, and hopefully get a lower round G that can be groomed to replace Wiegert in a year.

I think Wells isnt going to resign for what the Texans want to give. And I see one of the other 31 teams wanting him. Calhoun is an all around RB. He would give Morency a run for the #2 spot, even though I am in love with Morency. But I am more in love with a good team with depth. Davis goes down every year. So Morency will take over, with Calhoun behind him, or vice versa.

We'll have to wait and see on Wells, I think he might come back and I don't think he'll get paid any more to go somewhere else. Calhoun shuold be a nice RB, but my point was we already have Davis and Morency that are good RBs, so if we're going to add another one it should either be a speed RB (like Reggie Bush) or a big bruising RB (maybe Cedric Humes, not sure what other large RBs are coming out this year, but get someone like Greg Jones that Jacksonville picked up last year).

BuffSoldier
02-01-2006, 02:09 PM
wow, you were pretty off in that post. Those teams did go "star happy"

Patriots- Corey Dillon & Rodney Harrison
Eagles- TO and Jevon Kearse
Steelers- Big Ben
Seahawks- Hasselback emerging got them there

seriously, the stars made these teams so much better, not finding guys that "fit their system"- what a dom capers thing to say


Big Ben isnt a star, neither is Dillon or Hassleback, TO didnt play in the playoffs, adn they had already went to 3 NFC champions without them. Whats your point.

Spoda
02-01-2006, 02:39 PM
why are u giving up the chance to draft bush? next year if we still suck which we probably still will, maybe not last place but still wil, we can draft and o line or trade and stuff

wow....i need to sit down....wow...we can draft o-line next year?? new texans fan? our o-line is the giant stinky turd in the corner of the room that everyone smells but nobody will admit they see it...well we all see it now...we must get line help now be it brick or no brick....next year? wow:crying:

Texans>Colts
02-01-2006, 03:45 PM
This draft is very good on OLine, and that has been our #1 glaring weakness since year #1 yet we have continually ignored it. I would not be overly upset at drafting Bush, but I think Carr is solid at QB and I think Davis/Morency/Wells are solid at RB, and either way without a much improve OLine our offense is going to continue to struggle. We need to address OLine now because it frequently takes them almost a year to become good, so we have to address that now since this is a great draft for it and get that taken care of before the rest of our good players start getting old. If we still end up sucking next year and are at the top of the draft (and after trading down we should have an extra 1st rounder next year), then Adrian Peterson will be available and in my opinion he is more of a franchise RB anyways and I'd prefer to have him over Bush.



I would love to get a draft like Mario, Winston, Mangold, and Minter, but unfortunately I don't see that happening. I don't think Mangold or Minter will drop to the 3rd round, maybe Jonathan Joseph will be there. After trading down we should have an extra 2nd this year, so if we get Mario in the 1st we could hopefully grab Winston at #33 (maybe trade up if he isn't going to fall that far), grab Minter or Mangold with our other 2nd, and then grab the best interior OL or CB at #65, depending on what we get in the 2nd (Davin Joseph may fall to the 3rd for our OLineman, otherwise there should be some good CBs available like Jonathan Joseph), and look for a TE with our other 3rd.

Excatly. There is a good selection of O-line guys this draft. Thats y in the second round we pick a guy like JOnathan Scott or Eric Winston. We doin't need the best OT out there. I would love 2 c the Defense stop r speed with AJ, Mathis, and Bush

BuffSoldier
02-01-2006, 05:20 PM
Excatly. There is a good selection of O-line guys this draft. Thats y in the second round we pick a guy like JOnathan Scott or Eric Winston. We doin't need the best OT out there. I would love 2 c the Defense stop r speed with AJ, Mathis, and Bush

They wont have to, because Carr will be on his back staring up a Dwight Freeney.

Tell me, since obviously you have such profound knowledge of the NFL Draft, why would we draft a second round OT to start right away?? Jo. Scott had a great Senior Bowl showing, he will not fall to the 2nd round, Winston... doubt that also.

So what happens if one of those guys doesnt fall. Its happened before where a lot of players in the same position have all been drafted in the first round like in 04 when 7 WRs were drafted in the first round.

What then, draft a player that wont produce anny better thatn the players that we already have?? Or just wait until next year... Nooo cause then everybody will be on the Draft Dwayne Jarred Message board hook him back up with Bush we can wait for the o-line.

BuffSoldier
02-01-2006, 05:26 PM
PS. HOW CAN I JOIN THE D'BRICK CLUB?

Im glad you have decided to join us my friend... just change your signature.

Blake
02-01-2006, 05:28 PM
Ioane won't be a 4-3 DE, Babin will move down, Peek can gain 10 lbs. and be a DE, and we can get others for depth (Pettway will be a DE and they've already signed two others to duke it out in camp). Manny Lawson would be a good addition but I don't think we should use our top two picks on DEs.

I guess we can just agree to disagree. Babin, Peek, Pettway, and Anderson are tweeners. Thats why they are supposed to be good OLB, in the 3-4 defense. The only one I would think could possibly go back to DE, is Babin.

We get caught up in all the offensive players; the glory positions. But I would like to see us get a great defense, and get good depth this year.

BuffSoldier
02-01-2006, 05:32 PM
I
We get caught up in all the offensive players; the glory positions. But I would like to see us get a great defense, and get good depth this year.

You cant add depth when there are still so many holes to fill.

whiskeyrbl
02-01-2006, 05:34 PM
It's fun to see people point out certain players that were picked here and picked there,gone to the Super Bowl,haven't gone.Jesus,i guess the other 44 guys on the roster really didn't have to be there!!!!!!

Texans>Colts
02-01-2006, 06:12 PM
Big Ben isnt a star, neither is Dillon or Hassleback, TO didnt play in the playoffs, adn they had already went to 3 NFC champions without them. Whats your point.

Nope Big Ben isn't a star. He is only 23 years old and is 26-6 in the regular season. O yea and he just lead his team into the superbowl. I find it pretty amazing 2 go this far in the playoffs in te 1st 2 years of his career. Idk wat ur thinking about saying he isn'ta star.:confused: :um: idonno: :dontknowa

infantrycak
02-01-2006, 06:19 PM
Nope Big Ben isn't a star. He is only 23 years old and is 26-6 in the regular season. O yea and he just lead his team into the superbowl. I find it pretty amazing 2 go this far in the playoffs in te 1st 2 years of his career. Idk wat ur thinking about saying he isn'ta star.:confused: :um: idonno: :dontknowa

Try reading the whole thread and you will understand what people are saying. The point is to distinguish teams who draft for success vs. those who try to build around existing stars, basically by free agent acquisition. A draft pick by definition is not an NFL star--they may have star potential but on draft day, that is all they have.

rmartin65
02-01-2006, 06:47 PM
I guess we can just agree to disagree. Babin, Peek, Pettway, and Anderson are tweeners. Thats why they are supposed to be good OLB, in the 3-4 defense. The only one I would think could possibly go back to DE, is Babin.

We get caught up in all the offensive players; the glory positions. But I would like to see us get a great defense, and get good depth this year.
I can see Pettway playing DE as well.

BuffSoldier
02-01-2006, 07:40 PM
Nope Big Ben isn't a star. He is only 23 years old and is 26-6 in the regular season. O yea and he just lead his team into the superbowl. I find it pretty amazing 2 go this far in the playoffs in te 1st 2 years of his career. Idk wat ur thinking about saying he isn'ta star.:confused: :um: idonno: :dontknowa

I say this not because Ben isnt a good QB, nor do I take away from any thing that he has done, but when I say star QB, I mean someone like Peyton Manning, Michael Vick, McNabb, Carson Palmer, Daunte Culpepper(before this season). These are QBs that, as you have seen, can take over a game by themselves... Ben is a very good player on a very good team, but by no means do I think that he is one of the top signal callers in the NFL.

Texans>Colts
02-01-2006, 08:22 PM
I say this not because Ben isnt a good QB, nor do I take away from any thing that he has done, but when I say star QB, I mean someone like Peyton Manning, Michael Vick, McNabb, Carson Palmer, Daunte Culpepper(before this season). These are QBs that, as you have seen, can take over a game by themselves... Ben is a very good player on a very good team, but by no means do I think that he is one of the top signal callers in the NFL.

oh. ok.:ok: