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kbourda
01-31-2006, 12:19 PM
Did Coach Kubiak come out and say that this would be the offense the Texans would be running? Or will it be a hybrid off of it? Because I know that Shanahan ran various variations off of the West Coast principle. I'm curious to know. I've always loved that offense.

Lucky
01-31-2006, 01:11 PM
I don't remember Kubiak saying WCO specifically, but you can bet it will be very similar to what he ran in Denver. More timing routes than before. More receivers release into the pattern. We'll see more bootlegs. More playaction. And we'll see even more of a commitment to the zone blocking concept.

Spoda
01-31-2006, 01:34 PM
all i remember him saying is we will turn david loose and do some play actions....wow...play action...that will be nice

aj.
01-31-2006, 01:38 PM
...and a TE who is an integral part of the passing attack.

I was just looking at Denver's rushing stats for this season and Anderson, Dayne, and Bell had 2200 yards between them.

A guy like Vernand Morency has a chance to become more than just another backup RB in this offense. Everything keys off a successful running game in their (our) attack but it's not 3 yards and a cloud of dust.

jerek
01-31-2006, 01:45 PM
I hope to see a pass-catching TE become more integral, but with or without a TE, you can bet our offense is going to look a lot less predictable. Rivers showed signs of becoming a good pass-catcher, toward the end of the year, IMO.

Runner
01-31-2006, 02:04 PM
A guy like Vernand Morency has a chance to become more than just another backup RB in this offense. Everything keys off a successful running game in their (our) attack but it's not 3 yards and a cloud of dust.


With some extra PT Morency might not slip as much either - there won't be moss growing under his shoes as he waits game after game to get a chance to play. :)

Porky
01-31-2006, 02:56 PM
all i remember him saying is we will turn david loose and do some play actions....wow...play action...that will be nice


I like a good play action game myself, but Carr is utterly horrible at it. He has improved ever so slightly, but Kubiak and Calhoun really need to stress this, and have him really sell the fake. Manning is one of the best at it, they should have him watch film of him, and some of the others really good ones. That is, if he isn't too busy having a picnic basket in the park, or playing golf. :stirpot:

ccdude730
01-31-2006, 03:05 PM
I like a good play action game myself, but Carr is utterly horrible at it. He has improved ever so slightly, but Kubiak and Calhoun really need to stress this, and have him really sell the fake. Manning is one of the best at it, they should have him watch film of him, and some of the others really good ones. That is, if he isn't too busy having a picnic basket in the park, or playing golf. :stirpot:
manning showing the ball and the threat of edge is why it works so well with indy. im not hating on DD, really, but hes not into that class of james. also the stretch play where manning has to run is where they do that PA alot of the times.

Kaiser Toro
01-31-2006, 03:08 PM
I like a good play action game myself, but Carr is utterly horrible at it. He has improved ever so slightly, but Kubiak and Calhoun really need to stress this, and have him really sell the fake. Manning is one of the best at it, they should have him watch film of him, and some of the others really good ones. That is, if he isn't too busy having a picnic basket in the park, or playing golf. :stirpot:

Oh you crusty curmudgeon forever pulling on my Carr-strings.

Yes he needs to work on play action. Ths is the type of play that actually does warrant constant repetition. It amazes me that we did not see more of it in the last three years when we had a running game that supported it.

Spoda
01-31-2006, 03:16 PM
manning showing the ball and the threat of edge is why it works so well with indy. im not hating on DD, really, but hes not into that class of james. also the stretch play where manning has to run is where they do that PA alot of the times.


carr would be hit before he could sprint out and hand the ball off...well maybe not to the left...but to the right?? it would have no shot

Kaiser Toro
01-31-2006, 03:18 PM
carr would be hit before he could sprint out and hand the ball off...well maybe not to the left...but to the right?? it would have no shot

Ahh yes, #9 in the Carr lover's excuse manual. :)

TEXANRED
01-31-2006, 04:58 PM
Wait....Stop.....this started out as a good thread. How did it turn into a Carr hating thread?!:challenge

I am looking forward to this upcoming season. I have thought that this offense was suited for the west coast, now we will see.

I will say we win 10 games next year. Anyone with me?:redtowel:

kbourda
01-31-2006, 05:23 PM
Wait....Stop.....this started out as a good thread. How did it turn into a Carr hating thread?!:challenge

I am looking forward to this upcoming season. I have thought that this offense was suited for the west coast, now we will see.

I will say we win 10 games next year. Anyone with me?:redtowel:

I hope you're right.

Bronco Texan
01-31-2006, 05:42 PM
Manning is one of the best at it, they should have him watch film of him, and some of the others really good ones. That is, if he isn't too busy having a picnic basket in the park, or playing golf. :stirpot:


Actually Jake Plummer is one of the better Play Action/Boot leg QBs in the league. I wonder if there is a rule about bringing Jake in for a week during the off season to go over some things with Carr. Well atleast I know Jake is the BEST boot leg QB.

SESupergenius
01-31-2006, 06:02 PM
I like a good play action game myself, but Carr is utterly horrible at it. He has improved ever so slightly, but Kubiak and Calhoun really need to stress this, and have him really sell the fake. Manning is one of the best at it, they should have him watch film of him, and some of the others really good ones. That is, if he isn't too busy having a picnic basket in the park, or playing golf. :stirpot:
That is a good point that was brought up during his very 1st training camp, he has gotten better however. If you've followed Plummer you can see he was changed, he now has pretty good deception on the fake.

run-david-run
01-31-2006, 06:56 PM
I like a good play action game myself, but Carr is utterly horrible at it. He has improved ever so slightly, but Kubiak and Calhoun really need to stress this, and have him really sell the fake. Manning is one of the best at it, they should have him watch film of him, and some of the others really good ones. That is, if he isn't too busy having a picnic basket in the park, or playing golf. :stirpot:
I agree in that Carr;s fake is terrible, but that is a very minor part of the play-fake, the way the line and receivers sell the fake is way more important, remeber, the defense ussualy cant see the QB very well to start with because the linemen blocking the view...

travfrancis
01-31-2006, 08:00 PM
Well atleast I know Jake is the BEST boot leg QB.

i have a feeling vince young could be pretty good at that.

bigcarlos
01-31-2006, 09:10 PM
i have a feeling vince young could be pretty good at that.
http://www.vinceyoungorelse.com/images/Young.jpg
:superman:

travfrancis
01-31-2006, 09:20 PM
:superman:

Kaiser Toro
01-31-2006, 09:22 PM
:superman: I just like the icon.

thunderkyss
01-31-2006, 09:33 PM
...and a TE who is an integral part of the passing attack.

I was just looking at Denver's rushing stats for this season and Anderson, Dayne, and Bell had 2200 yards between them.

A guy like Vernand Morency has a chance to become more than just another backup RB in this offense. Everything keys off a successful running game in their (our) attack but it's not 3 yards and a cloud of dust.


Would someone be kind enough to explain to me what they mean when they say West Coast Offense??

JohnGalt
01-31-2006, 09:49 PM
The traditional West Coast Offense is a ball control offense that utilizes quick timing routes by the receivers and short flare patterns by the backs. It's a very quarterback friendly system if the QB listens to his coach. If quarterback doesn't make his reads in the right order and keep the correct footwork, everything falls apart. e.g. Harrington, Vick, Hasslebeck pre-2004, Plummer pre-2005.

No-one runs the pure Bill Walsh offense anymore, except maybe Det or Tampa. The WCO disciples have all modified it to their talent. GB throws more deep routes because of Favre. Shannahan turned it into the mobile-QB-playaction-bootleg offense for Young, Elway, Plummer. That's why Greise bombed.

Carr has wheels and Kubiak came out of the Shannahan school, so expect things to be very Denver-esk in Houston the next couple of years. Sorry Young fans, Carr will likely be given at least two years to master this system and I think he will. Young doesn't fit into the plans.

AustinJB
01-31-2006, 10:30 PM
Carr has wheels and Kubiak came out of the Shannahan school, so expect things to be very Denver-esk in Houston the next couple of years. Sorry Young fans, Carr will likely be given at least two years to master this system and I think he will. Young doesn't fit into the plans.

Yeah, b/c if a guy like Carr who has "wheels" could do it....there's no WAY that a guy w/ excellent wheels could learn to throw short simple passes in a year or two.
:stirpot:

awtysst
01-31-2006, 10:53 PM
Wait....Stop.....this started out as a good thread. How did it turn into a Carr hating thread?!:challenge

I am looking forward to this upcoming season. I have thought that this offense was suited for the west coast, now we will see.

I will say we win 10 games next year. Anyone with me?:redtowel:


Let me first see the team we assesmble before we proclaim ourselves as 10 game winners.

zeplin
01-31-2006, 10:53 PM
manning showing the ball and the threat of edge is why it works so well with indy. im not hating on DD, really, but hes not into that class of james. also the stretch play where manning has to run is where they do that PA alot of the times.

You burn a couple of defenses with a well executed play action pass and they will be saying the same things about DC,AJ, and DD

DD is a threat and will be even more impressive under Kubiak. you are giving him no credit. I think that Texan fans will come to realize we have a pretty good offensive core. We need a OL that can allow DC TIME.

zeplin
01-31-2006, 11:08 PM
The thread was about WCO and I as allways I got caught up in the other off topic stuff. Kubiak is a WCO coach and I think we will be happier with a more aggressive aproach to our offense. It really is based on taking what the defense gives you. Every passing play has multiple passing routes. The running attack is more versatile.WCO philosophy is a short 3 yard pass is as good as a short run. This fact alone will stop defense from teeing off on us. Bill Walsh always said that the reason he drafted Montana was because he needed a QB that could make the first pass rusher miss him. DC really looks to me like that kind of a guy.
No not Joe Montana but the same kind of speed.
Shanahan comes from the same type pedigree and I think that that was the reason he and Kubiak lasted so long togather.
I am pumped at the possabilities.:homer:

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 12:14 AM
The thread was about WCO and I as allways I got caught up in the other off topic stuff. Kubiak is a WCO coach and I think we will be happier with a more aggressive aproach to our offense. It really is based on taking what the defense gives you. Every passing play has multiple passing routes. The running attack is more versatile.WCO philosophy is a short 3 yard pass is as good as a short run. This fact alone will stop defense from teeing off on us. Bill Walsh always said that the reason he drafted Montana was because he needed a QB that could make the first pass rusher miss him. DC really looks to me like that kind of a guy.
No not Joe Montana but the same kind of speed.
Shanahan comes from the same type pedigree and I think that that was the reason he and Kubiak lasted so long togather.
I am pumped at the possabilities.:homer:

Now that I see we all agree on what a WCO is, I question why people refer to Denver/Kubiak/Shanahan as WCO oriented. I understand that everyone has modified their WCO for different reasons, but I believe once you've got a running game capable of 2000+ yards/season, and the playaction is not only effective, but a big part of your game, you're no longer a WCO. I say this, because you are not using the passing game to set up the run, neither are you managing the clock with the short yardage pass. You are following the traditional smashmouth football technique of using the run to open up your passing game. You do add the big play potential to your game, but that's about all you have from the WCO. The Running game is crucial, and sets up the rest of your game.

Now about David's wheels....... when he breaks the pocket, the best thing for him to do, is head for the sidelines. I don't mean to continue the beating on the guy, I like him...... but unlike Jake & YKW, he's better in the pocket.

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 12:15 AM
......and, if we were to be a true WCO team, then I'd agree Reggie Bush is a perfect fit........... but since we're not.....

Apoch
02-01-2006, 12:28 AM
The traditional West Coast Offense is a ball control offense that utilizes quick timing routes by the receivers and short flare patterns by the backs. It's a very quarterback friendly system if the QB listens to his coach. If quarterback doesn't make his reads in the right order and keep the correct footwork, everything falls apart. e.g. Harrington, Vick, Hasslebeck pre-2004, Plummer pre-2005.

No-one runs the pure Bill Walsh offense anymore, except maybe Det or Tampa. The WCO disciples have all modified it to their talent. GB throws more deep routes because of Favre. Shannahan turned it into the mobile-QB-playaction-bootleg offense for Young, Elway, Plummer. That's why Greise bombed.

Carr has wheels and Kubiak came out of the Shannahan school, so expect things to be very Denver-esk in Houston the next couple of years. Sorry Young fans, Carr will likely be given at least two years to master this system and I think he will. Young doesn't fit into the plans.

All true, but I'd like to add something about Denver's scheme.

The two big, big differences between the Denver and Atlanta version of the west coast offense and others are the blocking scheme and misdirection. Most west coast schemes are based on timing in the passing game and execution of complex blocking movements for running (trapping, pulling, the wham, etc). Denver almost completely eliminates those movements, and while timing is still important, it isn't nearly the focal point it is in other WC schemes.

The zone blocking scheme designed by Alex Gibbs and Shanahan works to create "lateral separation" and breakdown "gap integrity."

"Lateral separation" is created by having the offensive line move sideways - rather than forward - while the backside blockers hold point. This causes the defense to spread out, covering more ground from sideline to sideline. It will also create some, if not several, holes in the line. If any second level defenders shoot these gaps to break up the play they fall right into Denver's hands and cause a breakdown of "gap integrity."

If the defenders do overpursue in this manner, the RB then reads the line and finds the proper cutting lane. This is where you so often hear of Denver's RBs backside cuts for huge gains. Of course, the same can be true for underpursuing. In that case, the RB will continue to stretch the play laterally while the quicker offensive linemen seal the outside for the stretch. They can also move to the second level once the intended "zone" is secure and provide blocking all the way into the secondary. It really is a thing of beauty! :thumbup

As for the Play-action part, the QB bootlegs to the opposite side of the field stretching the defense laterally even more. This is where Carr can shine. He has the athleticism to roll out and get to the edge.

powda
02-01-2006, 01:04 AM
nice post apoch

michaelm
02-01-2006, 01:34 AM
Let me first see the team we assesmble before we proclaim ourselves as 10 game winners.


Man, you're no fun.
You want us to break our 4 year long tradition already?

michaelm
02-01-2006, 01:38 AM
nice post apoch
Yeah man, that made a lot of sense.
Are you sure you're on the right board?

Maddict5
02-01-2006, 06:18 AM
Actually Jake Plummer is one of the better Play Action/Boot leg QBs in the league. I wonder if there is a rule about bringing Jake in for a week during the off season to go over some things with Carr. Well atleast I know Jake is the BEST boot leg QB.

mike vick is the best PA,bootleg qb-see the way he hides the ball behind his leg for a few seconds. jake is good though

Kaiser Toro
02-01-2006, 09:02 AM
All true, but I'd like to add something about Denver's scheme.

The two big, big differences between the Denver and Atlanta version of the west coast offense and others are the blocking scheme and misdirection. Most west coast schemes are based on timing in the passing game and execution of complex blocking movements for running (trapping, pulling, the wham, etc). Denver almost completely eliminates those movements, and while timing is still important, it isn't nearly the focal point it is in other WC schemes.

The zone blocking scheme designed by Alex Gibbs and Shanahan works to create "lateral separation" and breakdown "gap integrity."

"Lateral separation" is created by having the offensive line move sideways - rather than forward - while the backside blockers hold point. This causes the defense to spread out, covering more ground from sideline to sideline. It will also create some, if not several, holes in the line. If any second level defenders shoot these gaps to break up the play they fall right into Denver's hands and cause a breakdown of "gap integrity."

If the defenders do overpursue in this manner, the RB then reads the line and finds the proper cutting lane. This is where you so often hear of Denver's RBs backside cuts for huge gains. Of course, the same can be true for underpursuing. In that case, the RB will continue to stretch the play laterally while the quicker offensive linemen seal the outside for the stretch. They can also move to the second level once the intended "zone" is secure and provide blocking all the way into the secondary. It really is a thing of beauty! :thumbup

As for the Play-action part, the QB bootlegs to the opposite side of the field stretching the defense laterally even more. This is where Carr can shine. He has the athleticism to roll out and get to the edge.

Appreciate the input, good stuff.

wenskek
02-01-2006, 06:42 PM
do you goes know or think that the new offense will use a recieving tight end or will it be like the past when we only use the te to block, i am hoping we actually start using the TE as a reciever.

rmartin65
02-01-2006, 06:49 PM
Depends what we do in the off-season.

infantrycak
02-01-2006, 07:18 PM
Barring an inability to have any competent TE, Kubiack's presumed system for the Texans should utilize a TE extensively.

TheOgre
02-01-2006, 07:33 PM
Boomer Esiason was one of the best play-action QB's ever. Carr could learn a thing or two from watching film of him.

Seņor Stan
02-01-2006, 08:12 PM
Boomer Esiason was one of the best play-action QB's ever. Carr could learn a thing or two from watching film of him.

Get outta my head! I was going to say this, but fortunately I read to the end of the thread before posting.

Boomer was the best at selling the play action that I have every seen.

Tale Gator
02-01-2006, 08:15 PM
Screw the West Coast -- we need the Third Coast Offense.

-and-

The Dirty South Defense.

Ohhh yeah. :yahoo:

mexican_texan
02-01-2006, 09:41 PM
I hope you're right.
I hope he's wrong...I want 19 wins.

mexican_texan
02-01-2006, 09:43 PM
Screw the West Coast -- we need the Third Coast Offense.

-and-

The Dirty South Defense.

Ohhh yeah. :yahoo:
:homer: I thought New England ran that?

Apoch
02-02-2006, 12:52 AM
Screw the West Coast -- we need the Third Coast Offense.

-and-

The Dirty South Defense.

Ohhh yeah. :yahoo:

I'll take the "Dirty South Defense," but how about "The Coastal Bend Offense?"

:rolleyes:

wenskek
02-02-2006, 01:41 AM
I'm down with the THIRD COAST OFFENSE!

mancunian
02-03-2006, 08:13 AM
Wait....Stop.....this started out as a good thread. How did it turn into a Carr hating thread?!:challenge

I am looking forward to this upcoming season. I have thought that this offense was suited for the west coast, now we will see.

I will say we win 10 games next year. Anyone with me?:redtowel:

Yeah I can see that. With most of the wins coming early as teams underestimate the improvements made under Kubiak, they'll all still be thinking we're a 2 and 14 team.
The team has talent - it just needs to be honed in the right direction.