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Texans_Chick
01-30-2006, 09:10 PM
Sorry if this was posted before, but there is a made for TV College Football All-Star Challenge thing that is going to be on ESPN on Saturday.

VY will be in it. Bush and Leinart opted out.

Here is an article about VY's participation in it and more:

link-"Young ready for chance to showcase his arm" (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11103085/)

I kinda like junk sports TV. Battle of the Network Stars was a favo. Imaginary bonus points for the first poster to name the unlikely guy that beat Robert Conrad in a footrace.:superman:

cap1
01-30-2006, 09:17 PM
I kinda like junk sports TV. Battle of the Network Stars was a favo. Imaginary bonus points for the first poster to name the unlikely guy that beat Robert Conrad in a footrace.:superman:


Gabe Kaplan don't ask how I know that.

YoungTexanFan
01-30-2006, 09:18 PM
Good find.

I havent watched that since 2001.

Texans_Chick
01-30-2006, 09:40 PM
Gabe Kaplan don't ask how I know that.

The thing is that if all the places in our brain that are filled with useless knowledge and silly stuff were filled with actual practical highly educated stuff, cancer would be cured.

In the meantime, we are left with the College Football All-Star Challenge, and making people smile.:redtowel:

I'm gonna have to remember to TiVO it:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/13745731.htm

Football stars on displayVince Young or Reggie Bush?

If you had the first pick in the NFL Draft, which one would you choose?

Both Bush, the Southern Cal running back who ran away with the Heisman Trophy, and Young, the Texas quarterback who ran away from USC to win the Rose Bowl MVP and the national title, will be at Dolphins Stadium today to compete in the Capital One College Football All-Star Challenge.
There will be three divisions of competitors: quarterbacks, receivers/running backs and kickers.
The event, which features some of college football's top players, will begin at 12:30 p.m. and will air Feb. 4 on ESPN. It's open to the public.
Young and Bush head the field that includes Miami wide receiver Sinorice Moss, Florida wide receiver Chad Jackson, Alabama quarterback Brodie Croyle, Maryland tight end Vernon Davis, Clemson quarterback Charlie Whitehurst and Memphis running back DeAngelo Williams.


The article is wrong because Bush isn't showing.

kastofsna
01-31-2006, 11:58 AM
what's sad is people are going to pick who they want based on this all-star. "oh man, vince young missed that tire by like 3 yards! draft bush"

kbourda
01-31-2006, 12:09 PM
what's sad is people are going to pick who they want based on this all-star. "oh man, vince young missed that tire by like 3 yards! draft bush"
Do you get a paycheck for dissing every move VY makes? Give it a rest. You have very little posts on this board and three fourths of them are bashing VY. Do you really have nothing to do or what?

kastofsna
01-31-2006, 12:22 PM
Do you get a paycheck for dissing every move VY makes? Give it a rest. You have very little posts on this board and three fourths of them are bashing VY. Do you really have nothing to do or what?
yes. except i wasn't bashing young there. i was bashing ignorant fans who don't watch college football, or don't know what makes a good quarterback. but good attempt at sherlocking me anyway

Youngstown Colt
01-31-2006, 01:44 PM
Do you get a paycheck for dissing every move VY makes? Give it a rest. You have very little posts on this board and three fourths of them are bashing VY. Do you really have nothing to do or what?Um, he wasn't bashing him.

HoustonFrog
01-31-2006, 01:59 PM
I read this in the paper today and had flashbacks to Robert Edwards blowing his knee playing sand voleyball at the Pro Bowl as a rookie.

Youngstown Colt
01-31-2006, 03:36 PM
I read this in the paper today and had flashbacks to Robert Edwards blowing his knee playing sand voleyball at the Pro Bowl as a rookie.You stand there and see who can throw the farthest, and then try to throw at moving targets.

Not too dangerous.

HoustonFrog
01-31-2006, 03:40 PM
You stand there and see who can throw the farthest, and then try to throw at moving targets.

Not too dangerous.

Well the one picture had him doing the ropes so I just thought about a trip and fall.

kastofsna
01-31-2006, 04:13 PM
young getting injured would be a blessing in disguise for texans fans

Texans_Chick
01-31-2006, 04:31 PM
young getting injured would be a blessing in disguise for texans fans



Anyhow, the deal was taped and has already happened. So I'm guessing if he got hurt, we would know, so he didn't and I guess that means we are not "blessed."

Ish, what an ugly thought.

I think the biggest blessing is for Bush and Young and Leinart and Brick and everyone near the top of the draft to look sweet so the first pick is worth more.

Tex-fan0604
01-31-2006, 06:49 PM
Does anyone know how VY did in the challenge? I know they are going to show it on Espn on Sat. but I would like some insight on his performance.

Peldon
02-04-2006, 04:24 PM
Challenge is on ESPN now. Accuracy competition is up first.

Dr. Toro
02-04-2006, 05:00 PM
64 into a stiff wind. Not bad. I hope we can put the girly-arm talk to rest. The first two were over 70, but wide right.

awtysst
02-04-2006, 05:06 PM
64 into a stiff wind. Not bad. I hope we can put the girly-arm talk to rest. The first two were over 70, but wide right.

64 INTO a stiff wind? wow. That is an arm.

awtysst
02-04-2006, 05:07 PM
young getting injured would be a blessing in disguise for texans fans

What an awful thing to say about anyone. Saying anyone getting hurt is a "blessing". You should be ashamed of yourself.

awtysst
02-04-2006, 05:19 PM
In the receiving drill you had to catch balls for ball machines set at 60-70mph for 30 seconds.

Results:
Chad jackson:27
Sinorice Moss: 19 catches
Vernon Davis:16
D'Angelo Williams: 15

run-david-run
02-04-2006, 05:25 PM
VY won the QB competition, was the only QB to complete a pass (2/2)...looked real good

Dr. Toro
02-04-2006, 05:28 PM
Jackson has been very impressive... that guy is jacked and fast with hands.

I know this is just a made for TV event, but Young looked ridiculously good in that scrambling deal.

I was impressed by Davis in the agility drill, we've all heard how he's a weight room warrior, but he's very smooth. You wouldn't know he was a weight room freak by watching him move.

travfrancis
02-04-2006, 05:28 PM
yeah, funny thign was, that was the most relevant drill for us. it had to do with scrambling and throwing on the run, something the kubiak offense involves a lot of, and vince looked awesome.

all that being said, most of those drills were pretty worthless in terms of talent evaluation really, i wouldn't put hardly any stock in it, although chad jackson certianly didn't hurt his draft stock with in that pass catching drill, that one-hander was sick.

awtysst
02-04-2006, 05:32 PM
The thing that stood out for me was the end where VInce was standing next to the other players. He looked HUGE. I mean HUGE. He looked taller then the TE Davis and could be about his size. And he runs a 4.46 40. Wow.

The Preacher
02-04-2006, 05:47 PM
Vernon Davis is going to be a beast. Period

Texans_Chick
02-04-2006, 07:20 PM
Next showing is Wednesday, 2/8 at 2:30 am.


(For those of us who have TiVO but were too oblivious to record the original showing of it).

Tale Gator
02-04-2006, 08:57 PM
The wind gusts Vince threw into today were clocked at 112 mph. :stirpot:

DominickDavisFan76
02-04-2006, 09:12 PM
I know there are some Omar Jacobs fans out there, so how come Omar wasnt there today, and ummm... are there going to be any more chances for the public to see some NFL Prospects before the combine, if u do reply to this message.

travfrancis
02-04-2006, 10:19 PM
http://media.putfile.com/Vince-All-Star-Game

this is a clip of vince doing the throwing on the run contest

Texans_Chick
02-05-2006, 09:44 AM
http://media.putfile.com/Vince-All-Star-Game

this is a clip of vince doing the throwing on the run contest


It would be nice to go through life that smooth.

YoungTexanFan
02-05-2006, 10:18 AM
http://media.putfile.com/Vince-All-Star-Game

this is a clip of vince doing the throwing on the run contest


Do you have a clip that isnt with putfile?

I can never watch their clips. The screen is always just green.

MorKnolle
02-05-2006, 11:57 AM
64 into a stiff wind. Not bad. I hope we can put the girly-arm talk to rest. The first two were over 70, but wide right.

The first two were supposed to be about 70 yards but they were also 20 yards wide right, not overly impressive accuracy, either way he got beat by Brodie Croyle in an arm strength contest. Throwing a ball 64 yards without anyone around isn't overly impressive, I can get one 55-60 yards without having any kind of collegiate coaching, and I wouldn't miss that far to the side either, but that tends to happen when you have more of a sidearm throw.

yeah, funny thign was, that was the most relevant drill for us. it had to do with scrambling and throwing on the run, something the kubiak offense involves a lot of, and vince looked awesome.

all that being said, most of those drills were pretty worthless in terms of talent evaluation really, i wouldn't put hardly any stock in it, although chad jackson certianly didn't hurt his draft stock with in that pass catching drill, that one-hander was sick.

I personally would rather see him be able to stand in the pocket and make an accurate throw to a target moving 20 yards down the field, besides Vince was competing against Brodie Croyle, Charlie Whitehurst, and Drew Olson, so much of his top competition was not there. Anyways, I'm not trying to bash Vince here, just pointing out that this thing did not do much to help or hurt anyone's perceived talents and change their draft status, this was just a made-for-TV thing and shouldn't be read into that much for actual game talent.

kastofsna
02-05-2006, 03:47 PM
arm strength isn't just throwing a deep ball

YoungTexanFan
02-05-2006, 04:38 PM
arm strength isn't just throwing a deep ball

true.

I would rather have a QB who is accurate with a tight spiral than one who can "rainbow" one 64 yards. Highschool QB's can hit 64 easily. College QB's need to refine accuracy.

tsip
02-05-2006, 07:23 PM
...most of you VY bashers obviously did not see the entire challenge because all the QB's threw in the scenarios you are bashing Y about--sorry. He finished 2nd(barely) in the accuracy challenge that involved setting up and throwing at moving targets at different distances--Young finished 2nd in the distance throws (by 2 yds), hampered by winds up to 100 mph--and won the agility/running/throwing contest and was the only QB to hit the 2 targets. He won over QBs all ranked in the top 10.

He's working out 12 hrs a day for the combine, where--unlike your SoCal boys--will show case his talents. Before it's over, I get the feeling you Bush lovers are going to look like the Caper :homer: 's of last year, who could say nothing objective that did not involve bashing/name calling, etc....

...Almost forgot--watch the show (it repeats) so you can hear the announcers rave about Young's arm strength and accutacy but I've got faith in you bashers--however, I'm worried your'e going to run out of smoke. Too, whatever happened to backing up your opinion with fact?? Remember, Young was the most efficient QB in the nation last year.

Texans_Chick
02-05-2006, 09:44 PM
I personally would rather see him be able to stand in the pocket and make an accurate throw to a target moving 20 yards down the field, besides Vince was competing against Brodie Croyle, Charlie Whitehurst, and Drew Olson, so much of his top competition was not there. Anyways, I'm not trying to bash Vince here, just pointing out that this thing did not do much to help or hurt anyone's perceived talents and change their draft status, this was just a made-for-TV thing and shouldn't be read into that much for actual game talent.

I am thinking that knee braced Leinart would have looked not so good in the agility/accuracy drill. Hence the no show. I give VY credit for not be askeered of competition and showing his skills. May not amount to a hill of beans tho.


I spoke to someone today that told me that the interview with VY was really good before the QB part of the competition. What exactly did he say?

Maddict5
02-06-2006, 10:04 AM
...most of you VY bashers obviously did not see the entire challenge because all the QB's threw in the scenarios you are bashing Y about--sorry. He finished 2nd(barely) in the accuracy challenge that involved setting up and throwing at moving targets at different distances--Young finished 2nd in the distance throws (by 2 yds), hampered by winds up to 100 mph--and won the agility/running/throwing contest and was the only QB to hit the 2 targets. He won over QBs all ranked in the top 10.

He's working out 12 hrs a day for the combine, where--unlike your SoCal boys--will show case his talents. Before it's over, I get the feeling you Bush lovers are going to look like the Caper :homer: 's of last year, who could say nothing objective that did not involve bashing/name calling, etc....

...Almost forgot--watch the show (it repeats) so you can hear the announcers rave about Young's arm strength and accutacy but I've got faith in you bashers--however, I'm worried your'e going to run out of smoke. Too, whatever happened to backing up your opinion with fact?? Remember, Young was the most efficient QB in the nation last year.

i only saw the clip but it didnt look like 100 mph hurricane winds. tsip meet talegate's sarcasm,sarcasm tsip

tsip
02-06-2006, 01:26 PM
"i only saw the clip but it didnt look like 100 mph hurricane winds. tsip meet talegate's sarcasm,sarcasm tsip"

You really ought to watch the show so you can make a more informed statement about the wind, as the announcers made a big deal out of it--not me

tulexan
02-06-2006, 01:46 PM
And if you watched the accuracy competition you would have seen that Drew Olsen had some penalties because he stepped over the line and still won.

Those were not 100 mph winds either. There was some wind, but not gale force strength. The guy from Memphis converted a 50 yard FG at the same endzone.

Vince did pretty much what I expected. He is great on the run, good with short passes, and has no accuracy on the long ball. He missed badly with his first two throws in the long ball competition, and barely made the third. If there was just a line instead of a wall, he wouldn't have made the third because he bounced it off of the wall. And with the scrambling competition, he was going up against a pocket passer (Olsen), a QB who just was recovering from surgery (Whitehurst), and Croyle fumbled and pretty much gave up.

The only guy who really impressed me all day was Chad Jackson. The guy looks like he is going to be the real deal in the NFL. He is big, fast, and has great hands. Sinorice Moss looked pretty good too, I think he is going to be just like his brother. What I really liked about him was how calm he was during the catching competition. He didn't lose his concentration like Vernon Davis or DeAngelo Williams. He looked completely focused and methodical.

MorKnolle
02-06-2006, 02:16 PM
And if you watched the accuracy competition you would have seen that Drew Olsen had some penalties because he stepped over the line and still won.

Those were not 100 mph winds either. There was some wind, but not gale force strength. The guy from Memphis converted a 50 yard FG at the same endzone.

Vince did pretty much what I expected. He is great on the run, good with short passes, and has no accuracy on the long ball. He missed badly with his first two throws in the long ball competition, and barely made the third. If there was just a line instead of a wall, he wouldn't have made the third because he bounced it off of the wall. And with the scrambling competition, he was going up against a pocket passer (Olsen), a QB who just was recovering from surgery (Whitehurst), and Croyle fumbled and pretty much gave up.

The only guy who really impressed me all day was Chad Jackson. The guy looks like he is going to be the real deal in the NFL. He is big, fast, and has great hands. Sinorice Moss looked pretty good too, I think he is going to be just like his brother. What I really liked about him was how calm he was during the catching competition. He didn't lose his concentration like Vernon Davis or DeAngelo Williams. He looked completely focused and methodical.

I agree with most of what you said here. Again, we're not out here trying to just "bash Vince" but a few comments were made about how great Vince was at this thing and such, so a few of us that don't agree are voicing our opinions as well, and personally I was not really impressed with him and my opinion of him, and everyone else involved in this whole thing, did not really change from anything I saw there. As Tulexan mentioned, Vince did win the scrambling drill and looked pretty good at it, but as he also pointed out Olson is a pure pocket passer, Whitehurst is coming off of shoulder problems, and Croyle didn't show up in that drill, so it's not like he beat out any kind of fierce competition, and he didn't look that good in the accuracy drill (no one really did other than Olson was pretty good and got penalized for barely stepping on the line, otherwise he would have run away with it), and wind or no wind he had some big problems in the accuracy drill, moreso than the other guys, and again Leinart, Cutler, Omar Jacobs and those guys weren't there competing either.

tsip
02-06-2006, 02:34 PM
I agree with most of what you said here. Again, we're not out here trying to just "bash Vince" but a few comments were made about how great Vince was at this thing and such, so a few of us that don't agree are voicing our opinions as well, and personally I was not really impressed with him and my opinion of him, and everyone else involved in this whole thing, did not really change from anything I saw there. As Tulexan mentioned, Vince did win the scrambling drill and looked pretty good at it, but as he also pointed out Olson is a pure pocket passer, Whitehurst is coming off of shoulder problems, and Croyle didn't show up in that drill, so it's not like he beat out any kind of fierce competition, and he didn't look that good in the accuracy drill (no one really did other than Olson was pretty good and got penalized for barely stepping on the line, otherwise he would have run away with it), and wind or no wind he had some big problems in the accuracy drill, moreso than the other guys, and again Leinart, Cutler, Omar Jacobs and those guys weren't there competing either.


...and Bush was where?

DRAMA
02-06-2006, 02:37 PM
I kinda like junk sports TV. Battle of the Network Stars was a favo. Imaginary bonus points for the first poster to name the unlikely guy that beat Robert Conrad in a footrace.:superman:

You don't look old enough to remember 'Battle of the Network Stars' I'm 35 and I barely remember it...I actually remember that VOICE more than I do the show.

Vinny
02-06-2006, 02:46 PM
I personally would rather see him be able to stand in the pocket and make an accurate throw to a target moving 20 yards down the field
Here you go (http://jcdenton.unmatchedmedia.com/UTvUM04-TonyJeffrey-Catch%28DivX%29.avi). Open in a new window. Enjoy.

MorKnolle
02-06-2006, 02:47 PM
...and Bush was where?

Probably at home on his couch watching it on TV. He had nothing to prove by showing up for this event, as none of the drills they were running would have either showcased his talents or tried to put to rest worries about his perceived weaknesses. I don't know why most of these guys showed up other than to have some friendly fun and have a shot at winning a nice 46-inch plasma TV as prizes, as this was not meant as a serious scouting session, otherwise they would have brought in a lot more guys. Vince I guess at least got to participate in passing drills to hopefully dispell some concerns about his passing, but to me and I think most other people in the nation he didn't sway our opinions one way or the other, neither did anyone that was there.

tsip
02-06-2006, 02:58 PM
Probably at home on his couch watching it on TV. He had nothing to prove by showing up for this event, as none of the drills they were running would have either showcased his talents or tried to put to rest worries about his perceived weaknesses. I don't know why most of these guys showed up other than to have some friendly fun and have a shot at winning a nice 46-inch plasma TV as prizes, as this was not meant as a serious scouting session, otherwise they would have brought in a lot more guys. Vince I guess at least got to participate in passing drills to hopefully dispell some concerns about his passing, but to me and I think most other people in the nation he didn't sway our opinions one way or the other, neither did anyone that was there.

Do you consider the combine important? Will Bush participate in that? I'm not sure where you're getting your 'public opinion' about Young but it does make for 'interesting' reading. But, you know what, our opinions are great but it's going to be so much better when the players take their talents to the field!! Here's hoping that results is the 'name' of that scenario and not excuses.

MorKnolle
02-06-2006, 03:57 PM
Do you consider the combine important? Will Bush participate in that? I'm not sure where you're getting your 'public opinion' about Young but it does make for 'interesting' reading. But, you know what, our opinions are great but it's going to be so much better when the players take their talents to the field!! Here's hoping that results is the 'name' of that scenario and not excuses.

Yes, the combine is much more important. It gathers the 300+ top college football players and puts them thru a series of drills that are relevant to NFL game situations and are measured by NFL scouts and coaches. It doens't just put four guys per competition on national TV to run thru an obstacle course or just try to throw the ball as far as they can, it does a much better job of testing the actual football talent of the players involved. I doubt Bush will participate very much at the combine, I'm sure he'll be there, get weighed in and all that and do whatever testing the NFL and the teams require of him, but I wouldn't expect him to do many of the drills there as he has very little to prove there that needs to be proven. I also doubt Leinart and Vince do much (Vince said he would do passing drills since he has something to prove there) and a couple others like Mario Williams may also opt out of running most of the drills. These guys all have pro days to go to at their schools in addtion to the combine, and many of them that don't have much left to prove would prefer to do these drills in more familiar settings at their home school and stadium rather than being put on show in front of all 32 teams and 300+ fellow players at the combine. I wish they would all do all of the drills at the combine and that they'd publish the list of heights, weights, measurements, 40 times, and all the other drills they do somewhere so everyone can see them so we don't have to go off of the inaccurate and varying draft scouting websites.

tsip
02-06-2006, 05:28 PM
"since he has something to prove there"

I'm not sure what your basis is for bashing Young's passing because the facts don't support your bias--


Leinhart 283/431 3815 28tds/8ints 13.48 ypc/8.85 ypa 65.66%

Young 212/325 3036 26tds/10ints 14.32 ypc/9.34 ypa 65.23%

Leinhart's Pass Efficiency was 157.7, Young's was 166.7. Leinhart had more yds but he also had over 100 more attempts. Young, however, had more total yds (4086 to 3851) and more td's when you factor in rushing td's.

And, when you consider Vince was a JR, imagine what his specs would have been next year!,,,so, enlighten me, please back up your constant bashing of Young's passing!:confused:

AustinJB
02-06-2006, 07:19 PM
"since he has something to prove there"

I'm not sure what your basis is for bashing Young's passing because the facts don't support your bias--


Leinhart 283/431 3815 28tds/8ints 13.48 ypc/8.85 ypa 65.66%

Young 212/325 3036 26tds/10ints 14.32 ypc/9.34 ypa 65.23%

Leinhart's Pass Efficiency was 157.7, Young's was 166.7. Leinhart had more yds but he also had over 100 more attempts. Young, however, had more total yds (4086 to 3851) and more td's when you factor in rushing td's.

And, when you consider Vince was a JR, imagine what his specs would have been next year!,,,so, enlighten me, please back up your constant bashing of Young's passing!:confused:

Don't you get it Tsip? It doesn't matter what VY does, some people already have a pre-determined opinion of him that can not/will not be changed.

Even if he shows at the combine that he can pass w/ the best of them, they'll still see him as a running QB and likely come up w/ another excuse of why he can't be successful. While he is a running QB in the sense that he runs extremely well, it doesn't mean that he can't pass.....it's just that some people are jaded by Vick and can't wrap their minds around the idea that VY is not only athletic, but a great QB in every sense of the word.:stirpot:

Tale Gator
02-06-2006, 07:44 PM
i only saw the clip but it didnt look like 100 mph hurricane winds.

Actually there was a rare weather phenomenon known to meteorologists and sailors as a 'dry hurricane' -- the winds were clocked at a steady 112 mph with gusts up to 138 mph. It was estimated by experts at the event that Vince could have easily thrown the ball 142 yards if not for the debilitating storm. The other Qbs were lucky as they threw before the storm started, during the calm eye, and after the storm had passed.

The storm was rated a 3.4 (out of 5) on the Fujoihota BS scale.

Texans_Chick
02-06-2006, 10:48 PM
You don't look old enough to remember 'Battle of the Network Stars' I'm 35 and I barely remember it...I actually remember that VOICE more than I do the show.


I have a good explanation for that. You see, as the Texans Chick, I am timeless and ageless. After a long gestational period, I was reborn on September 6th, 2000. Texans Chick will never age, and will never die. I hope to inspire generations of more and more Texans Chicks--womens that love the Texans football and show their Texans pride with style.

It is sort of like a Dread Pirate Roberts thing. Only dealing with multiples. That some day there will be so many Texans Chicks at the stadium and throughout the country that you will never know who the original one was.

:redtowel: :redtowel: :redtowel:


It's a theory at least. :texflag:

MorKnolle
02-06-2006, 10:54 PM
"since he has something to prove there"

I'm not sure what your basis is for bashing Young's passing because the facts don't support your bias--


Leinhart 283/431 3815 28tds/8ints 13.48 ypc/8.85 ypa 65.66%

Young 212/325 3036 26tds/10ints 14.32 ypc/9.34 ypa 65.23%

Leinhart's Pass Efficiency was 157.7, Young's was 166.7. Leinhart had more yds but he also had over 100 more attempts. Young, however, had more total yds (4086 to 3851) and more td's when you factor in rushing td's.

And, when you consider Vince was a JR, imagine what his specs would have been next year!,,,so, enlighten me, please back up your constant bashing of Young's passing!:confused:

Leinart is better in everything except yards per attempt, which for college configures much more heavily in the QB rating than it does in the NFL (Leinart has higher completion percentage, and better TD/INT ratio). Vince had good stats in college, but as you've seen there have been many people with far superior passing stats that haven't amounted to anything in the NFL, so as it has been said repeatedly on here by both Vince supporters and people not wanting Vince, college stats don't amount to much of anything (all of Hawaii's QBs, Texas Tech QBs, NC State's QBs of recent years, etc. that have put up far superior passing stats and not done much of anything, plus all the MAC and Pac-10 QBs that have put up amazing stats and not accomplished a whole lot in the NFL vs. the guys with lesser stats that became good players).

Let me tell you what the pro scouts I know have said about Vince since you want to know what my knocks against him are: Vince has a funky throwing motion, he did not play in a pro-style offense at all (most college QBs don't, but Leinart for this comparison did), he passed out of a shotgun 90% of the time which doesn't happen in the NFL, he does not have an especially strong arm, he doesn't have overly good accuracy, the mechanics of his throwing motion are not very good (not just his arm motion itself, but his feet and other things), he frequently does not make great decisions or read defenses especially well. It is estimated that Vince will be a 2-year project before he is ready to play and you can even evaluate how good of a QB you expect him to be. Those are the opinions/evaluations of the few pro scouts that I know, and I can agree with most of them.

Certainly Vince is pretty mobile for a QB, but it's not like he's going to be dominating the NFL with his running, people says he has good leadership skills, but those don't necessarily translate to the NFL and I don't see him coming to a team and instantly improving everyone's play and inspiring the team into making the playoffs or anything like that, rookies rarely ever have that kind of effect, and they won't have that kind of effect from the bench. In the NFL, respect and inspiration is earned on the professional field.

I'm not saying I don't think Vince will be good or that I hope he fails or anything like that, I think he will end up being a good QB some day, but I personally don't see him being anything that David Carr can't be and I don't want to wait around a couple more years while Vince is turned into a pro QB. I don't see him adding much of anything to this particular team and I don't want to use the #1 pick on him when we have so many other things that need to be improved on the team, whether we trade down to address more of those needs or draft Bush who will at least add another unique piece to the offense on top of what we already have. That is my opinion on the matter.

tsip
02-06-2006, 11:41 PM
...at least let me get my boots on!!!

MorKnolle
02-06-2006, 11:55 PM
...at least let me get my boots on!!!

Well you asked where I was coming from, so I gave you the professional opinions that I have heard (I probably left a couple points out too) and then mine on top of that, so be careful what you ask for. That was more of just the negatives on him, but you were asking where I come from on why I don't want us to draft him, so that was most of the reasoning behind it.

beerlover
02-07-2006, 12:03 AM
I don't see him coming to a team and instantly improving everyone's play and inspiring the team into making the playoffs or anything like that, rookies rarely ever have that kind of effect, and they won't have that kind of effect from the bench. In the NFL, respect and inspiration is earned on the professional field.

dude all you have to do is look back two years to the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Texans had the 10th pick and choose Dunta Robinson, the Steelers where next and with the 11th pick selected Ben Rothelisberger. Maddox went down in the 2nd game and in came Ben taking a team only one pick better than that 2003 Texans team (at least record wise) and rolled out a 14 game winning streak or something like that with a 15-1 record? sure he looked shakey his first playoffs loss that first year but in year two he matured and made the most of it leading his team to win the Super Bowl. If thats not having impact and a positive effect then I don't know what is :rolleyes: does Ben have the NFL's respect now, which has been earned on the professional field?

MorKnolle
02-07-2006, 12:18 AM
dude all you have to do is look back two years to the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Texans had the 10th pick and choose Dunta Robinson, the Steelers where next and with the 11th pick selected Ben Rothelisberger. Maddox went down in the 2nd game and in came Ben taking a team only one pick better than that 2003 Texans team (at least record wise) and rolled out a 14 game winning streak or something like that with a 15-1 record? sure he looked shakey his first playoffs loss that first year but in year two he matured and made the most of it leading his team to win the Super Bowl. If thats not having impact and a positive effect then I don't know what is :rolleyes: does Ben have the NFL's respect now, which has been earned on the professional field?

That has very little to do with the current Vince situation. Ben was not supposed to be this astonishing leader coming out of college. He did not ink his contract and instantly make everyone on the team suddenly inspired to go out and play better. He was not instantly a leader on the team just because he displayed good leadership in college. He was supposed to sit for a while but was forced into the lineup when Maddox went down, and he proved himself on the field, played well enough to get his team wins and earned his respect and leadership. Vince has not even been drafted yet and people are already proclaiming he will instantly be one of the best and most respected leaders in this league. I was saying that players do not instantly get that respect and leader tag without stepping on the field, they have to actually earn it by their play on the NFL field, not what they did in college. Barring injury to the starting QB or being in a blowout game, Vince will not play his rookie year in the NFL regardless of what team he goes to, so he will not get that chance to appropriately prove himself on the field to become a leader in the NFL. The Titans and Texans are far from having the overall talent of the Steelers, so they won't be in a position to go 15-1, plus playing in Pittsburgh makes it pretty easy on QBs as they play a much smaller role in the overall success of their team (22 passing attempts per game over his two year career, by far the fewest in the league) and have much less stress and pressure put on them, so a rookie will have a better chance to succeed there.

I have no doubt that Vince has the capabilities of becoming a good NFL leader, but many players do coming out of college, it is a matter of whether they realize that leadership potential and are put in a position to exhibit it and take over a team. Many more players than most people realize have that potential to be a leader in the NFL, but many never get the opportunity to rise to that challenge. Ben did not do that from the bench those first couple games, he had to earn it throughout the rest of the year and this year. Vince is not going to instantly make any kind of difference from the bench, he is going to have to, at some point in time, be put in a situation in which he can become the leader of a team and then he's going to have to step up and take advantage of that situation. I don't see that happening his rookie year or probably even his 2nd year as I don't see him getting much if any playing time during that stretch, and if he does I don't think he has the capabilities of performing to those standards yet. Simply having him on the team is not going to change the rest of the team if he's not getting a chance to play and lead the team, leadership will not come from a rookie player that is not getting to play. I think at some point in his career he will be put in that situation, but I don't see that being in the next year or two and I think he has a lot of work to do himself to get the rest of his skills to where they need to be so he can take advantage of that situation when it comes, and I don't think that will happen here in Houston and I don't think that would be an ideal situation for him or our team.

tsip
02-07-2006, 12:31 AM
It's obvious from your post that you want Young to fail because your post is not based upon current fact but on conjecture. To date, despite all his flaws according to you, Young has not only succeeded but keeps improving. Carr came to the Texans with flaws in his throwing motion and still has them, especially lacking the 'touch' of getting the ball over the head of the defender into the receivers grasp. Reading a defense? Pocket management? Young routinely throws to several players, not just locking in on one or two or dumping off the ball at the first sign of pressure. Your post is not full of examples of bad results that Young has gotten but-instead- your posts are full of what you think the future holds for Vince. And, you lose credibility when you state things about Young that are not true, while ignoring the flaws in others that are....weak arm? not accurate? can't read a defense? Were you one of those posters last year that predicted a winning season in '05 and then disappeared during the season when the team went 'south?'

Time will tell the fortune of Young/Bush/Leinart and others and it won't matter how any of us 'see the forest for the trees' but , IMO, you ought to cut yourself a little slack just in case your predictions of doom for Young are not even close...

jerek
02-07-2006, 01:12 AM
dude all you have to do is look back two years to the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Texans had the 10th pick and choose Dunta Robinson, the Steelers where next and with the 11th pick selected Ben Rothelisberger. Maddox went down in the 2nd game and in came Ben taking a team only one pick better than that 2003 Texans team (at least record wise) and rolled out a 14 game winning streak or something like that with a 15-1 record? sure he looked shakey his first playoffs loss that first year but in year two he matured and made the most of it leading his team to win the Super Bowl. If thats not having impact and a positive effect then I don't know what is :rolleyes: does Ben have the NFL's respect now, which has been earned on the professional field?

Ben looked great, and he deserves much of the accolades now being ascribed to him. But he also came onto a playoff ready team with a relatively established coach and winning tradition, a team that was very much one or two pieces away from winning the big game.

Bit of a different situation?

beerlover
02-07-2006, 02:11 AM
Ben looked great, and he deserves much of the accolades now being ascribed to him. But he also came onto a playoff ready team with a relatively established coach and winning tradition, a team that was very much one or two pieces away from winning the big game.

To repeat: the fact is one pick seperated the Texans from the Steelers in the 2004 draft. Alot of people including myself thought that Al Davis Raiders would take Big Ben with the 2nd overall pick, there was hype just terrible GM's who could'nt see the talent, size and leadership Rothelisberger showed yes even @ Miami of Ohio, he was as freaky good as Randy Moss was @ Marshall, just a man amongst boyz. If Carr had progressed the Texans would have won a few more games in 2004, the GB game sticks in my mind, then something happened, quietly without notice the Texans began their prolific nose dive culmenating with the horrid season closer agaisnt the Browns. the leadership, the promise the future suddenly seemed in doubt. this last year proved those doubts to be true, these franchises became seperated by years but in fact it was only one year, one pick and yes it can make a difference :stirpot:

cadahnic
02-07-2006, 07:26 AM
The fact that people dont understand that Big Ben and David Carr are the same types of leaders is amazing. They are not the raw raw get your *** in gear type of guys. They are calm, collected, and willing to take all blame on themselves. Ben makes plays on a great SB team, whereas Carr makes plays on a terrible team. Is the difference that Carr does not make enough plays, or is it that his team is just that much worse. I am not defending Carr and there really is no reason to, we all know Carr's shortcomings and strengths, but to imply we made a mistake on Ben is crazy.
Ben has shown that when asked to carry the team he has not matured enough in his position to really be able to do that. I understand were Mork, Tsip, and Beer are coming from I just think that some are taking Vince based on factors that are non-football. Every scout I have talked to including ones in the Titans Organization have said the same things Mork has posted. Most people feel like Vince has Randall Cunningham potential. That is a big time QB, not one that will win it all by himself, but he will win you games. Either way Carr and Young are good QBs one will be good in a year or two and one is already good. Just a note on Carr he was on the worst team in the NFL stayed in the top 20 of QBs, completed more than 60% of his passes, and passed for more touchdowns than ints. Ask a scout how they feel about Carr and you will get comparisons to some stout Qbs and the most common would be the Archie Manning of our time.
This draft is the perfect opportunity to change that.

aj.
02-07-2006, 08:01 AM
I wouldn't put too much stock in the College Football All Star Challenge since it's nothing more than a Super Bowl made for TV entertainment event. I went to the one in Houston two years ago during SB week and unless they changed the format, the whole thing is a very laid back production. As I watched the players during the lengthy down time between filmed events, it was pretty obvious that it was more like a token appearance/ semi goof off event for them than a real meaningful competition.

thunderkyss
02-07-2006, 08:09 AM
The fact that people dont understand that Big Ben and David Carr are the same types of leaders is amazing. They are not the raw raw get your *** in gear type of guys. They are calm, collected, and willing to take all blame on themselves. Ben makes plays on a great SB team, whereas Carr makes plays on a terrible team. Is the difference that Carr does not make enough plays, or is it that his team is just that much worse. I am not defending Carr and there really is no reason to, we all know Carr's shortcomings and strengths, but to imply we made a mistake on Ben is crazy.
Ben has shown that when asked to carry the team he has not matured enough in his position to really be able to do that. I understand were Mork, Tsip, and Beer are coming from I just think that some are taking Vince based on factors that are non-football. Every scout I have talked to including ones in the Titans Organization have said the same things Mork has posted. Most people feel like Vince has Randall Cunningham potential. That is a big time QB, not one that will win it all by himself, but he will win you games. Either way Carr and Young are good QBs one will be good in a year or two and one is already good. Just a note on Carr he was on the worst team in the NFL stayed in the top 20 of QBs, completed more than 60% of his passes, and passed for more touchdowns than ints. Ask a scout how they feel about Carr and you will get comparisons to some stout Qbs and the most common would be the Archie Manning of our time.
This draft is the perfect opportunity to change that.

Good point about the leadership thing. I'll give you that argument(well, you won it really, but that doesn't help my argument). I don't see how anyone can think Carr has a better chance of getting to the Big Dance, before Vince. Good points about Carr and what he did do right this year(but top 20 out of 32?? is he at least in the top half(16) that would be a better argument, or are you counting all the backups and starters who didn't play more than 5 games??)

Good post, best David Carr argument I've heard(read) yet.

Helps me to believe, all is not lost if we stay with Carr, but I'm not convinced that passing on Vince is the right thing to do.


Kudos

cadahnic
02-07-2006, 08:17 AM
Thunder I am not trying to defend or promote Carr. I was one of the guys that felt up and until last year that we made a mistake in getting him. He showed me last year that he had heart, tenacity, and a willingness to die for this team. He also showed that when he is not getting sacked he is a big time QB(just look at last year's numbers). Vince and Carr would likely need the same luck and big time team to get to the big dance since neither is playing for a team that is close yet. Unless Vince goes to a team that is built to win now like say the Ravens then he will not be able to win many games as a rookie or even second year guy. Also on Carr's stats I just went on the numbers from this year. He was not in the top half and I would not expect a person who played on the worst team to be, but he was the best QB our of the teams that stunk this year, hence the Archie Manning reference. If the organization feels that Vince is best in the long run ok, but I have yet to see anyone post anything about VY that is not filled with emotion or conjecture. Mork and a couple of other people only post about what scouts say about him so that is my take on VY.

Lucky
02-07-2006, 08:49 AM
I kinda like junk sports TV. Battle of the Network Stars was a favo. Imaginary bonus points for the first poster to name the unlikely guy that beat Robert Conrad in a footrace.:superman:
Gabe Kaplan?

Maddict5
02-07-2006, 08:54 AM
"i only saw the clip but it didnt look like 100 mph hurricane winds. tsip meet talegate's sarcasm,sarcasm tsip"

You really ought to watch the show so you can make a more informed statement about the wind, as the announcers made a big deal out of it--not me

sorry i only have common sense and common sense tells me that a ball doesnt go 60 yards in 100+mph wind-there may have been wind but talegate was being sarcastic when he said 112mph but you used it like it was a truthful/credible point

MorKnolle
02-07-2006, 11:45 AM
It's obvious from your post that you want Young to fail because your post is not based upon current fact but on conjecture. To date, despite all his flaws according to you, Young has not only succeeded but keeps improving. Carr came to the Texans with flaws in his throwing motion and still has them, especially lacking the 'touch' of getting the ball over the head of the defender into the receivers grasp. Reading a defense? Pocket management? Young routinely throws to several players, not just locking in on one or two or dumping off the ball at the first sign of pressure. Your post is not full of examples of bad results that Young has gotten but-instead- your posts are full of what you think the future holds for Vince. And, you lose credibility when you state things about Young that are not true, while ignoring the flaws in others that are....weak arm? not accurate? can't read a defense? Were you one of those posters last year that predicted a winning season in '05 and then disappeared during the season when the team went 'south?'

Time will tell the fortune of Young/Bush/Leinart and others and it won't matter how any of us 'see the forest for the trees' but , IMO, you ought to cut yourself a little slack just in case your predictions of doom for Young are not even close...

From your post, I'd say you either didn't read my last couple posts or you're just looking at it thru badly burnt orange glasses.

In my last post I attempted to break down the development of leadership in the NFL, it is not something that a rookie will bring to a team until he steps on the FNL field and proves his skills there and starts leading the team, that doesn't happen while he's sitting on the bench. Many people, both Vince supporters and especially guys that don't want Vince, don't think he is going to play much his rookie season and that he should sit and learn the NFL game and improve his own personal skills, but some of Vince's supporters still feel that he is somehow going to magically improve everyone on the team while sitting on the bench, and that his mere presence is going to inspire them to greatness, and I was trying to explain that is not the way it works. That is just the way it is, I never said in there that I want or even expect Vince to fail. I said that he will at some point, like many other players who have leadership potential coming out of college, be put in a position to play and showcase his physical talents and try to step up into that leadership position, and at that point he will need to step up to that challenge. In order to do that, he is going to have to improve some of his individual quarterbacking skills in order to take advantage of that opportunity, he has all the physical gifts to do it but he needs to improve areas of his game. As I said before, many players have leadership potential, some get the opportunity to use that while some are never given the opportunity to fulfill that potential and become a leader. We don't know if Vince ever will and no one can say for certain how he will respond to that when it happens. I am quite sure at some point he will get that chance and I think he will likely make good use of it, but I don't know when or how that will happen and I don't see him being ready to do that for a year or two. I never once said I expect or hope Vince fails, my point with that was that some people expect him to be this awesome leader that will instantly change our organization around, he will not instantly make that difference just by being here if he is not playing and is on the bench, I don't think he has the quarterbacking skill capabilities to do lead the team this coming year, and on our team I don't see him getting that appropriate opportunity to lead this team for a while either. That last part about the team is not a knock on Vince, I think that with our current team he is not going to have the opportunity to become the leader that some people think he is destined to be for several years, but some people are going to refuse to see that, so fine.

My previous post on his flaws with his game, you specifically asked me why I don't see him being the best pick for this team, so I typed my opinion on his game and the flaws that pro scouts that I personally know and have talked to on the subject said about his game. That is not some unsubstantiated projection onto the future, that is looking at his game right now. I/they never said David Carr was perfect or didn't have some of those flaws either, but David is less of a raw talent than Vince currently is, and given that Carr should be a fully-capable QB and that Vince does currently have those flaws and is not an instant upgrade over Carr, I/they do not feel that Vince would be the optimal pick for the Texans at the #1 overall position in this draft, especially when the team has so many other needs on defense and offense that need to be looked at, and that either QB is going to need a great deal of added talent to be able to lead this team to where it needs to go. My statement that I don't think Vince is going to be anything as a QB that David Carr cannot end up being is a projection into the future of their careers and their talent/potential. I am not saying Vince won't be good or David won't be good, I'm saying that I think David has the potential and capabilities to accomplish anything at QB that Vince can accomplish, but that is my opinion that I am entitled to, and you and everyone else are obviously entitled to your opinions as well.

I am not trying to bash Vince, I am trying to counter some of these "Vince is the best thing since [fill-in-the-blank]" posts that have been everywhere on here since the Rose Bowl. I am presenting my opinions on the matter as the Vince supporters are doing. I am trying to present a little more practical and objective side than the often-emotional and UT-fan based view that is frequently submitted on here. There is nothing wrong with being a fan of a guy or his college team, but that will obviously skew your opinion in his favor. I am not a fan of UT, I'm not saying my view is necessarily right or more realistic than most others (a few opinions on here have clearly been off the wall for him, but ok), but it is just from the opposing side of what many views on him are, so to those people it will seem like I'm overly critical of him and his skills.

I've tried to share some insight from some NFL scouts that I have personally talked with on their thoughts on Vince since they are more qualified than the vast majority of us to assess his skills. In the end, our opinions on him do not really matter on this subject. The management of the team will do what they feel is in the best interest of the team, and then it is up to us to do what we want with the given situation, whether that be to continue to support the team, follow Vince's career thru the NFL and support whatever team he goes to, or a little of both. None of these are wrong, it is what you want to do. As a fan you have the luxury of choosing who you want to support and for whatever reasons you want to support them, that is your right and you can do as you wish. I myself grew up as a basketball player and fan, and with the NBA nowadays I generally follow specific players rather than specific teams, and I mainly just want to watch good basketball and the players I like as opposed to really caring which teams succeed. As for the NFL, I also like to watch good football games and certain players, but I have chosen to support the Texans however well they do and whatever direction they go, that is my choice and I'll stick with it, so that is my stance on this team and league. You can do whatever you want as that is your choice, all I ask is that people try to take somewhat of an open mind and approach things realistically, do not get bent out of shape when someone with an opposing view speaks their mind (especially when you ask their opinion), and that you stick with your decisions and claims on a team and don't claim to be a fan of the team above all else and then turn your back on them when they don't pick a certain player (I'm not at all saying that you are doing this, but that has been known to happen on here with a few people and those people are a little irritating, but again I'm not overly concerned with what they choose to do for themselves).

There, that is all I care to type on the subject for now, and I commend you if you can actually read thru that whole thing because I got going and ended up writing a lot.

Coach C.
02-07-2006, 12:11 PM
Damn Mork, I just read that whole article you just wrote. I agree, but if you ever put something like that up again at least get it published. hahahahaha.

thunderkyss
02-07-2006, 12:20 PM
but some of Vince's supporters still feel that he is somehow going to magically improve everyone on the team while sitting on the bench, and that his mere presence is going to inspire them to greatness, and I was trying to explain that is not the way it works.
Personally, I haven't seen this.... I think alot of VY opponents read this, and all that superman stuff into some posts..... these guys are the same ones that use the "one game" argument.

I don't know, but I'd like to compare Vince's scouting Report to Ben Rothlisbergers, McNabb's, Dante Culpeppers..... Byron Leftwich's for that matter also. I wonder if they were as NFL ready as Peyton Manning or Matt Leinart... I'll do a search, and see what I can find. I'd like to see how accurate these "scouts" are.


My previous post on his flaws with his game
This is something else I don't get..... the kids got flaws.... who don't?? one of the things we like about Kubiak, is the work he does with QBs. We all agree, that we David Carr after 4 years in the league, needs work, needs coaching. I would assume, that even though we may be optomistic, that we know there is a possiblity, that it won't be succesful. I think Vince sitting with Kubiak on the sideline, watching David, as David learns would be the perfect situation. If David doesn't work out, we've got a viable Plan B, that will get us to where we want to be, without having to start over 2 years from now. If David Carr is better than we projected, then fine, we'll deal Vince... I know it's expensive to do such(but it ain't my money :ok: ) but don't think of it as throwing money away, think of it as insurance.


I am trying to present a little more practical and objective side than the often-emotional and UT-fan based view that is frequently submitted on here. but it is just from the opposing side of what many views on him are, so to those people it will seem like I'm overly critical of him and his skills.


No, sometimes I think you are overly critical.... Alot of QBs have come into the league with a sidearm throwing motion.... It's not that big of a deal. Many have learned to throw it the right way, many have become succesful even though they didn't. If someone(Kubiak) can convince Vince that it is worth working on, I don't think it will be a problem. If you are as high on Kubiak as you suggest, I don't see it as a problem.

Not only that, what really gets me, about you.. is that you sound like you know what you are talking about. Yet you can't find one good thing to say about Vince.......... or maybe I missed it.

Trade Down, or draft Vince. That's the way I see it. & from someone as knowledgable as you, I'd expect the same, but you keep saying Reggie is a better fit. REggie may be more ready to play in 2006, but I don't see how he fits our team, when RB is not even a question.

You also agree that N.O. needs a QB more than they need a RB, even though our RB situation is better, and their QB has had the same problems ours has had.

You also think Tenessee needs a QB over a RB, when they don't even have a RB, and their QBs number will probably be retired.

So I do think you are more critical of Vince Than honest objectivity would allow.

Coach C.
02-07-2006, 12:30 PM
thunder, Mork has repeatedly stated objectively about Vince. NO is in far worst shape than us. They have established players that were not getting it done even though they had a line and playmakers around him. NO has Deuce and he is a better RB than DD right now. Many a RB has come back from a knee injury and been solid. I am not sure what your point is pulling out these small tidbits. I mean you post with alot of emotion, but you do not try and sway opinion or post about things you dont know, not sure why you would not see Mork's points. Disturbing to say the least...

thunderkyss
02-07-2006, 01:00 PM
thunder, Mork has repeatedly stated objectively about Vince. NO is in far worst shape than us. They have established players that were not getting it done even though they had a line and playmakers around him. NO has Deuce and he is a better RB than DD right now. Many a RB has come back from a knee injury and been solid. I am not sure what your point is pulling out these small tidbits. I mean you post with alot of emotion, but you do not try and sway opinion or post about things you dont know, not sure why you would not see Mork's points. Disturbing to say the least...


I really don't think N.O. is in Far worse shape than we are. They had to deal with something we didn't, and came out with a better W-L. I posted on another thread, that over the last three years, Aaron Brooks (including 2005) was sacked 1 time less than David Carr(131 vs 132) yet he's passed for 3000 yards every season, except this one, where he missed it by 200 yards. His completion percentage is lower than Carr's, but hie QB rating is higher, despite being in the League 2 years longer. I think QB wise, it's a draw between N.O. and Houston.

Duece has the same problem as DD has.... can't stay healthy. the only difference, is we have a capable back up, as well as a young'n who may prove to be a true value pick at the RB position.

I don't know why I'm Nit Picking Mork...... other than I know he knows what he is talking about with players, and talent. But he says Reggie is a better fit..... I don't think it matters as much to me, when others say it, but it does when he says it........ maybe I'm missing somethng, maybe I'm upset at myself, for not seeing what he sees, and if you see the same thing he does, I don't think I can take it.



three months is a longggggggggggg way to go.

MorKnolle
02-07-2006, 01:02 PM
This is something else I don't get..... the kids got flaws.... who don't?? one of the things we like about Kubiak, is the work he does with QBs. We all agree, that we David Carr after 4 years in the league, needs work, needs coaching. I would assume, that even though we may be optomistic, that we know there is a possiblity, that it won't be succesful. I think Vince sitting with Kubiak on the sideline, watching David, as David learns would be the perfect situation. If David doesn't work out, we've got a viable Plan B, that will get us to where we want to be, without having to start over 2 years from now. If David Carr is better than we projected, then fine, we'll deal Vince... I know it's expensive to do such(but it ain't my money :ok: ) but don't think of it as throwing money away, think of it as insurance.

He asked me why I didn't think Vince should be our #1 pick, so I gave him my reasoning on it. He brought the subject up, he wanted to know what weaknesses I saw in his game and why I didn't think he was the best option for our team.



No, sometimes I think you are overly critical.... Alot of QBs have come into the league with a sidearm throwing motion.... It's not that big of a deal. Many have learned to throw it the right way, many have become succesful even though they didn't. If someone(Kubiak) can convince Vince that it is worth working on, I don't think it will be a problem. If you are as high on Kubiak as you suggest, I don't see it as a problem.

I don't doubt Kubiak could help Vince out, my point, as I stated numerous times, was that I think anything Kubiak can do for Vince, I think he can do for Carr, and Carr is much more ready to play in this league right now than Vince is, so Kubiak can come in and work with him and have him playing and reaping the benefits of his tutelage right away as opposed to waiting for 1-2 years to get an idea of what can come out of him.

Not only that, what really gets me, about you.. is that you sound like you know what you are talking about. Yet you can't find one good thing to say about Vince.......... or maybe I missed it.

I think I do know what I'm talking about, 99% of the posters on here sound like they think they know what they are talking about. I can find good things to say about Vince and I have posted them on occasion, but when so much of that is already going on and being exaggerated, my stance is on the other side of the argument so that's what I'm going to present. Any Vince supporters ought to be able to find good things about Carr but those are rarely voiced by those people, that's just the way two differing sides of an argument work.

Trade Down, or draft Vince. That's the way I see it. & from someone as knowledgable as you, I'd expect the same, but you keep saying Reggie is a better fit. REggie may be more ready to play in 2006, but I don't see how he fits our team, when RB is not even a question.

I am and always have been in the trade down camp, go back a couple months when Reggie was the hot topic of the boards and you'll find many posts by me trying to counter that. My point with this situation is I don't think Vince adds much, if anything, to the QB position over David Carr, and drafting Vince does not add anything else to the team, it would be done with the intention of replacing Carr, maybe not this year but in the near future, so we are using the #1 pick to just replace a guy. Drafting Bush adds a definite playmaker to what we already have, I like Domanick and think he can be a very good RB (and already is a good one), but we have mismanaged him in the past and adding Bush gives us another RB and a different type of RB to split some time, plus we can use him at WR the rest of the time. Drafting Bush would be adding another playmaker to what we have already built on offense and he can work in with Domanick, Andre, and the other guys rather than only replacing someone. I hope we are never in the #1 draft spot again, so if we're going to use that on one of these two playmakers I'd prefer to get the guy that adds something to our offense rather than using it on a guy that replaces a piece of our offense, and a piece that I think doesn't need replacing.

You also agree that N.O. needs a QB more than they need a RB, even though our RB situation is better, and their QB has had the same problems ours has had.

Yes I do, Aaron Brooks is not the same as David Carr, plus they have said many times that they are not happy with Aaron Brooks and are looking to replace him, so they've lost interest in him, whereas the Texans have said repeated times that they are going to resign Carr and that he is their guy at QB, and that they will not draft a 1st round QB with Carr here. The Texans are ready to move forward with David Carr as their man while the Saints are not wanting to move forward with Brooks. Deuce McAllister is a better RB than our guys so I wouldn't say our RB situation is better other than we have a little better depth.

You also think Tenessee needs a QB over a RB, when they don't even have a RB, and their QBs number will probably be retired.

I have never said that the Titans need a QB, and when we post our team needs list and other stuff later this week you will see that the Titans do not have QB or RB as a primary need. However, McNair is definitely near retirement, and the Titans have expressed interest in getting Vince Young and shopping Volek, I don't think they need to do that and I'm not sure that would be the best move for them, but they've said they are interested in doing that and I (along with the majority of the nation-wide sports people) think they will draft Vince at #3. I don't think that is a need of theres, but it is as much or more of a need of theirs than it is of ours, and they get to get him at #3 rather than #1.

So I do think you are more critical of Vince Than honest objectivity would allow.

I do come across as being pretty critical of him, but as I said earlier in this post it's because I'm currently on the side of the argument against him, so of course I'm going to present more of the negative side of getting him, while the Vince supporters are also more critical of David Carr than honest objectivity would be.

I don't know why I'm Nit Picking Mork...... other than I know he knows what he is talking about with players, and talent. But he says Reggie is a better fit..... I don't think it matters as much to me, when others say it, but it does when he says it........ maybe I'm missing somethng, maybe I'm upset at myself, for not seeing what he sees, and if you see the same thing he does, I don't think I can take it.

I do try to be objective the vast majority of the time, but at times I do get carried away with pointing out his negatives since his positives are posted so much more and often exaggerated a lot on here, so my inclination is to balance that out somewhat. As for being the better fit, it's just a matter of opinion on how you see the team. As I've said, I think Vince is a 2 year project at QB (myself and the scouts I know say this), and I don't see him adding anything to the QB position that David can't do, and with the #1 pick I'd rather get a guy like Bush that comes in and adds to the offense rather than either sitting the bench or replacing someone we already have. A lot of the key difference is also probably that I think Carr is a good QB and can be a great one, so I don't think he needs to be replaced, while you and others probably don't think that highly of him, or in the case of some people they are under the impression that Vince will just be so great that we can't pass up on him even if Carr is here and is a solid QB. I don't share that view of Vince. In the same sense, many people (moreso before the Rose Bowl) thought the same of Bush, either Davis was sub-par or even if Davis was a good back Bush was so special that we can't pass him up. I also don't share that view of Bush. I can see Bush making more of an immediate impact and definitely adding something to this offense, while Vince would have to sit and then replace someone rather than adding to our core of young stars.

That said, I still think trading down is the best option. I don't think Carr, Vince, or Bush can be used to their full potential without a drastic overhaul of the OLine. The coaching and system aspect of that is already in the works, but I think we need some personnel changes as well. We are also transitioning to a 4-3 defense so we'll need to add some better DEs and we still definitely have weaknesses on defense anyways. I would much prefer to see us trade down and address these problematic areas with our higher picks, and add more picks in the process. Building the overall team is the only way we are going to succeed, and in my mind trading is the best way to improve the overall team.

thunderkyss
02-07-2006, 01:08 PM
hehe,


I just like to hear(read) you talk football.

Dr. Toro
02-07-2006, 01:13 PM
Mork's opinions are highly valued and has been generally objective, but stating he couldn't see "how Vince can throw a ball 55-60" yards and then saying he "can throw a ball 55-60 yards without college coaching" is pushing the limits of objectivity. VY is 6'5" 235, strong, and throws a football for a living... the "objective" thing is to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

And what is objectivity? Mortensen says he has "marginal" arm strength and pumps Bush, other scouts say "decent", a DC said he has "a big arm", I've heard "great arm". Merril Hoge says he sucks, Shula says he's great, who is objective about Vince Young? He seems to be a flashpoint for controversy. If Vick led his team to the playoffs for the third time in four years, would Young be viewed more favorably by all? If Joey Harrington were our QB would anybody say no to Young? If he was from LA and Bush was from Texas, would there still be people wanting Young? Let's just concern ourselves less with objectivity and try to field opinions founded on decent reasoning.

I'm not objective about Vince Young, I'm a big fan of his, I'll support whatever team he goes to. They are the "Houston Texans" not the Texans of Houston at Reliant Park, so I think Houston roots matter. It's my opinion. It's not all rational, and neither is professional football. Some people are interested in the success of the team only (think Portland TrailBlazers post-Drexler/Oakland Raiders), some people want success and character guys (think San Antonio Spurs), some people want success, hometown guys, and character guys (think Astros). Everybody has their preferences. No one is objective. Not owners, not fans, not scouts, not coaches, not players.

Edit: Mork, nice post. There's nothing wrong with balancing out ridiculous hype for Young, I try to do the same for Bush, and dispell excessive criticism of Young.

Texans_Chick
02-07-2006, 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick
I kinda like junk sports TV. Battle of the Network Stars was a favo. Imaginary bonus points for the first poster to name the unlikely guy that beat Robert Conrad in a footrace.

Gabe Kaplan?

Yes, you are the second person to get this correct. An example of something that is kinda counterintuitive --at least counterintuitive based on hype and reputation.

Anyhow, BotNSs was on Trio recently, including this episode, and here is a recap I found on the internet for everyone's afternoon dose of humor written by some guy:

Link:Summary of the Most Infamous of the Battle of the Network Stars (http://scottvond.blogspot.com/2003_12_07_scottvond_archive.html)

"This week the inexplicable cable channel Trio, which is apparently programmed by monkeys, aired some vintage installments of the Battle of the Network Stars, something I never expected to see again. I happened across the 1976 edition of the Battle and got a tape into the VCR about 20 minutes into it. Here are the highlights:

6:20 pm: Telly Savalas in a speedo.

6:24 pm: Host Howard Cosell says the following, and I am not making this **** up: "What a glorious view. The rugged California mountaintops. The awesome Pacific Ocean in the background. One looks upon it and feels as Balboa and his men must have when, in the words of Keats, they gazed at each other with a wild surmise, silent upon a peak at Darien. [cut to Farrah Fawcett jogging in white shorty-shorts] But these girls aren't gazing. They're getting ready. Getting ready for the running relay!"

6:26 Team members are introduced. The ABC squad is particularly impressive, featuring not only dueling Kotter 'fros of Gabe Kaplan and Robert Hegyes, but future esteemed directors Penny Marshall and the man the New York Times recently called "the best middlebrow popcorn movie-maker of his generation," Ron Howard.

6:30 Unofficial results: NBC wins running relay.

6:31 Telly Savalas lodges an official complaint. The last runner for NBC picked up the baton too early. ABC wins. Robert Conrad of NBC is not happy.

6:36 Conrad still upset. Threatening to pull NBC out of competition.

6:38 Conrad challenges ABC captain Gabe Kaplan to a 100 yard dash to determine the winner.

6:42 Kaplan kicks Conrad's *** in the 100 yard dash.

6:47 Golf? Are you *****ing me? Fast-forward.

7:01 Dunk tank. A real disappoint, as no one manages to sink Robert Conrad. As Cosell observes, "Conrad voices his truculence." They really have to bring this show back. Can you imagine the thrill of seeing, say, Bernie Mac sinking some pompous jack*** like Kelsey Grammer?

7:17 Penny Marshall bests Mackenzie Phillips in the obstacle course, thus proving she had access to a higher grade of cocaine in 1976.

7:19 Adrienne Barbeau running. She has my undivided attention.

7:30 For some reason, Howard Cosell is interviewing Dr. Joyce Brothers. She explains that the audience enjoys seeing the celebrities' human frailties. Isn't that what I just said with my dunk tank comment? Keep up, Joyce.

7:36 Volleyball. This is a real mess. Telly Savalas falls into the crowd, nearly crushing a small child with his gold chains.

7:49 The finals: ABC vs. CBS in the tug-of-war. Hal Linden is confident. Gabe Kaplan does a terrible Muhammed Ali impression. Lynda Carter is showing lots of ***cheek. Juan Epstein nearly has an anuerism. It's a real nail-biter, but in the end, ABC pulls it off."


Classic commentary. A key moment in American culture. LOL.

MorKnolle
02-07-2006, 01:41 PM
Mork's opinions are highly valued and has been generally objective, but stating he couldn't see "how Vince can throw a ball 55-60" yards and then saying he "can throw a ball 55-60 yards without college coaching" is pushing the limits of objectivity. VY is 6'5" 235, strong, and throws a football for a living... the "objective" thing is to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

And what is objectivity? Mortensen says he has "marginal" arm strength and pumps Bush, other scouts say "decent", a DC said he has "a big arm", I've heard "great arm". Merril Hoge says he sucks, Shula says he's great, who is objective about Vince Young? He seems to be a flashpoint for controversy. If Vick led his team to the playoffs for the third time in four years, would Young be viewed more favorably by all? If Joey Harrington were our QB would anybody say no to Young? If he was from LA and Bush was from Texas, would there still be people wanting Young? Let's just concern ourselves less with objectivity and try to field opinions founded on decent reasoning.

I'm not objective about Vince Young, I'm a big fan of his, I'll support whatever team he goes to. They are the "Houston Texans" not the Texans of Houston at Reliant Park, so I think Houston roots matter. It's my opinion. It's not all rational, and neither is professional football. Some people are interested in the success of the team only (think Portland TrailBlazers post-Drexler/Oakland Raiders), some people want success and character guys (think San Antonio Spurs), some people want success, hometown guys, and character guys (think Astros). Everybody has their preferences. No one is objective. Not owners, not fans, not scouts, not coaches, not players.

Edit: Mork, nice post. There's nothing wrong with balancing out ridiculous hype for Young, I try to do the same for Bush, and dispell excessive criticism of Young.

I agree that it is indeed hard to find an objective opinion in sports, you have to take both sides of it and form an opinion on your own. I don't know where that bit about Vince not being able to throw it 55 yards came from, I don't think I said that. I merely pointed out that he threw the ball 63 yards with no one around, which is not really that special (that's where the part about me being able to throw one 55 yards without any training came in) as some people said it was super special that he was throwing it 63 yards with no defense or anything go one and without having to throw it to a guy running a route and get the ball to him or anything like that.

I have been on both sides of trying to dispell both Vince and Bush hype over the last 5 months ever since it became apparent that we'd be at the top of the draft and the floodgates of hype opened up. I've tried to present a relatively objective view while having to over-emphasize some negatives at times to balance the exaggerated positiives, but that's the way arguments and debates go, so hopefully people are getting something out of these message boards, I know I've been enjoying it even with some of the nonsense that goes on.

Dr. Toro
02-07-2006, 01:50 PM
I don't see any way that Vince can throw the ball over 55-60 yards, I never saw him throw one that long and his throwing motion would make it very difficult to do that, not to mention most of his passes over 30 yards downfield were generally badly underthrown and he had to rely on his big WRs jumping over the DBs to catch the ball.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=17246&page=2

He threw a 65-70 yard strike in the Army-All America game, video is available and I provided the news link for it as well. He's got ample arm strength for the deep ball, if what he has isn't enough, we can bring in Michael Bishop/Jeff George/Jim Harbaugh to throw the Hail Mary.

Texans_Chick
02-07-2006, 02:08 PM
I've tried to present a relatively objective view while having to over-emphasize some negatives at times to balance the exaggerated positiives, but that's the way arguments and debates go, so hopefully people are getting something out of these message boards, I know I've been enjoying it even with some of the nonsense that goes on.

I don't know. Don't much care for the exaggerations by either side.....

In academic debate or how the legal system attempts to work, there are advocates that throw whatever stuff out there, being an advocate no matter what the truth is, exaggerating and spinning, and at the end of the day, theoretically you come up with the right result. And it might be the right result, but it is certainly not the truth.

Personally, I try to just see both (all?) sides of things, really looking for the kernels of truth in what people are saying.

It is hard to know what the truth is and what is real. If you were to write down what you did today, it would not be the truth, it would be what you edited and remembered to be the truth.

With media and hype and TV angles and memory, truth gets a lot more fuzzy.


Anyhow, at the end of the day, I just wish that people (not just on the MB but in all walks of life) would do less advocacy/spinning and more fact finding and truth searching. As it relates to the MB, it is hard to have to sift through the BS to find things that are not exaggerations. And finding thoughtful analysis that isn't based on unsturdy foundations. And I certainly appreciate it when I find it.

But then again, if this sort of thing were easy, then the NFL teams would always pick the draft order exactly the right way, which is never done.

Htown34s
02-07-2006, 03:08 PM
There, that is all I care to type on the subject for now, and I commend you if you can actually read thru that whole thing because I got going and ended up writing a lot.

Good post MorKnolle. For whatever reason, this post seemed more objective than some of your other postings.

I'd say that it seems to me that there aren't that many pro-VY people on this board, that most of the anti-VY people think he shouldn't even be a QB nor have they seen any other games beyond the Rose Bowl.

The real debate about Vince should be if we replace Carr with VY. That is a very hard decision and a very important one, probably more so because we do have the first pick in the draft.

tsip
02-07-2006, 03:29 PM
"I attempted to break down the development of leadership in the NFL"

"He's such a great athlete, and he's an accurate passer," Staubach said. "I think he is an NFL quarterback. He's smart, confident and such a leader."

Please, give us a few sources or names of a couple of your scout friends.I have not read your disertation yet, but will, and I'll give some more quotes.

MorKnolle
02-07-2006, 03:35 PM
Good post MorKnolle. For whatever reason, this post seemed more objective than some of your other postings.

I'd say that it seems to me that there aren't that many pro-VY people on this board, that most of the anti-VY people think he shouldn't even be a QB nor have they seen any other games beyond the Rose Bowl.

The real debate about Vince should be if we replace Carr with VY. That is a very hard decision and a very important one, probably more so because we do have the first pick in the draft.

Yes, that is more of the debate, not whether Vince should/will be a good NFL QB (I'd debate if he's going to be a hall of famer like some people are already claiming), but should we replace Carr with Vince. Is Vince worth dumping Carr? The choices on that situation are (I'm not including a trade down in this):
1) Keep Carr, Draft Bush: Yields David Carr and Reggie Bush, costs $16 million a year but you have two guys on the field for it.
2) Release Carr, Draft Vince: Yields Vince Young at $9 million a year and either going thru same growing pains on a bad team as Carr did or else sitting behind someone else for a year or two and using up that money hoping it becomes a worthwhile investment in the future, and we get nothing for Carr.
3) Trade Carr, Draft Vince: Yields Vince Young and probably a mid-2nd round pick, plus $8 million cap hit. Again you would have to either sit Vince and hope that he is worth it later or put him in the line of fire his rookie season with our bad team.
4) Keep Carr, Draft Vince and sit him for 2 years: Yields $17 million a year between two QBs, only one of which is on the field at any point in time, then a potential QB controversy down the road where we either trade one and take a cap hit or let Carr's contract run out and once again get nothing for him.

With the Vince Young contract too, he's going to get a 6 year deal worth close to $55 million as the #1 pick. Assuming you want to protect him for at least a full season to get his skills up and learn the NFL game rather than throwing him to the wolves behind our OLine, then you're effectively paying him $55 million to play for 4.5 seasons, which is going to start amounting to a whole lot of money, more than most if not all QBs are really worth, especially an unproven rookie.
Reggie Bush would be in a similar situation, although his contract at #1 would be more like 6 years, $48-50 million, which is still a whole lot for a RB, but at least he's on the field for 95% of the plays from the start of his rookie season. I don't want to pay him that much money either.
Contracts for the #1 draft pick have exploded over the last few years, which is one big reason why I'd rather trade down to acquire more players and at positions of need and spread the same amount of money we'd pay either of them over 3-4 guys.
By staying at #1, we have 4 of the top 66 picks in the draft, hopefully all will be starting-quality players, but presumably at #1 we take either Vince or Reggie, so we either get a QB that will sit for a year or two but has worlds of potential that he hopefully grows into, or we get a RB that has some durability questions and will split time between RB and WR (will be on the field the whole game, but is maybe not a pure RB, but he also has worlds of potential that he could fulfill. We should get three starters among those other three picks, but there is a big question mark on the #1, as both guys are at positions that are not really a weakness for the team (at least in my opinion, views on this will vary), the QB will sit for a while and we don't exactly know what we're getting, and the RB is may not be the franchise workhorse RB and worthy of that money, and we similarly don't know exactly what we're getting.
If we trade down, we should get 5 picks in the top 66 and still be at #4 or #5, where we can take the best DE prospect since Julius Peppers or the best LT prospect in a while, both of which are uneniably at positions of great need for this team. We will also have an additional pick in that top range to get another guy, so we should be able to come away with 5 starting quality players while still getting an "elite" prospect in the 1st, rather than coming away with 3 starters and 1 potential franchise QB/RB, and you would also likely gain a future 1st round pick in a trade down to get another star in next year's draft.
Obviously anyone you draft is somewhat of an uncertainty (I classify Bush and Vince as more of an uncertainty than guys like Mario since the usual uncertainties about health and all that are present plus you're not sure how well Bush translates to a franchise RB and you're not real sure on Vince's quarterbacking skills and such), but by trading down you can add at least one additional high-end pick this year that should be a starter, you address a position of great need for this team with our top pick rather than waiting to a later round to address those needs, you pay all 5 of these incoming starters a lot less money than you'd pay the 3 starters and 1 potential star, and you have that extra future 1st rounder, plus you can probably add another draft pick or veteran player in there as well. To me, this is the best option if we use it wisely, and I think Kubiak will make better draft decisions than Capers
crew.

tsip
02-07-2006, 03:43 PM
thunder, Mork has repeatedly stated objectively about Vince. NO is in far worst shape than us. They have established players that were not getting it done even though they had a line and playmakers around him. NO has Deuce and he is a better RB than DD right now. Many a RB has come back from a knee injury and been solid. I am not sure what your point is pulling out these small tidbits. I mean you post with alot of emotion, but you do not try and sway opinion or post about things you dont know, not sure why you would not see Mork's points. Disturbing to say the least...

Whatever happened to people expecting a person to back up their post? Last year, the :homer: "s would not let a 'chicken little' make one thought w/o a verifiable source that was stamped by a Notary---now, we get disertations of personal opinions filled with inaccurate info. Mork, and others, would get more respect if--for example--they would back up their post with more than 'a scout told me the other day.'

"He's such a great athlete, and he's an accurate passer," Staubach said. "I think he is an NFL quarterback. He's smart, confident and such a leader."

Coach C.
02-07-2006, 03:52 PM
tsip would you rather those of us that post things about what actual NFL people say not post these things. I may be wrong but usually a good percentage(above 60) of our post are insightful, objective, and without much emotion. I get it Staubach said Vince was a leader, Moon said Vince was not anything special, Pete Prisco said that Vince is a glorified Randall Cunningham with less accuracy. You let me know if you would rather us stop posting.

Dr. Toro
02-07-2006, 03:55 PM
Carr, Bush, Davis= 20 million

Young, Davis=13 million

Young, Davis, Free agent(s)= 20 million

Carr is a one year cap hit, maybe you get lucky with talent in return in a trade (Baltimore, Oakland, Miami). Second rounder seems likely, but this is a deep draft. A line with Bentley and #33 pick starts looking pretty good, and while D'Brickashaw is a cut above, there are some fantastic linemen available later in this draft. The team would improve drastically under the trade down scenario, but you might be able to get similar value through a Carr trade/solid 2nd round picks. Essentially, the question is whether or not you think VY is a rare talent? Otherwise it's tough to justify drafting him. Given the money/effectiveness of Davis/Wells and zone scheme, I think it makes even less sense to draft Bush than Young? But if you think he's the next LT he's still worth taking.

Runner
02-07-2006, 03:56 PM
Anyhow, at the end of the day, I just wish that people (not just on the MB but in all walks of life) would do less advocacy/spinning and more fact finding and truth searching. As it relates to the MB, it is hard to have to sift through the BS to find things that are not exaggerations. And finding thoughtful analysis that isn't based on unsturdy foundations. And I certainly appreciate it when I find it.



So you prefer flexible people over tendentious ones. Good luck with that! :)

On of my pet peeves are people who build a logical case for something, and since they can show the logic is correct they think they are therefore correct. They don't want to admit that while their logic might be flawless, the premises upon which their logic rests might be assumptions rather than facts. It is tedious to try to discuss something with someone who knows something is true because they believe it - especially when that something is a future event.

Runner
02-07-2006, 04:00 PM
Don't you get it Tsip? It doesn't matter what VY does, some people already have a pre-determined opinion of him that can not/will not be changed.



Do you consider that statement to be true for both the pro- and anti- Young camps, for lack of better terms?

Htown34s
02-07-2006, 04:02 PM
1) Keep Carr, Draft Bush: Yields David Carr and Reggie Bush, costs $16 million a year but you have two guys on the field for it.

I think you leave out one important part here, which is DD. We'd really have around $20 million, with either $4 million or $8 million on the sidelines at any one time. I just don't want $12 mill to $14 mill tied up in two RB's. We could get Shawn Alexander or Edge James for half that (with some miles on them but you see my point).

To me, Bush just isn't an option because of the reasons above. So it all boils down to Carr or VY. The main knock I have on Carr is his ability to read defenses and make good decisions. I just think he doesn't have these abilities. I think he could have learned them despite the line problems, but has not. Remember that a good portion of the sacks Carr takes are his fault, this has been admitted by the coaches.

Of course VY has not played in the NFL, but I believe he is better than Carr. He has a side arm release, but so does Carr. He has a quicker release, has more touch on his passes, is quicker and stronger, has shown outstanding leadership qualities, is better at reading defenses (NCAA), etc.

Until VY plays in the NFL these aren't proven abilities, but if we are to look at VY's strengths and weaknesses then lets be sure to look at what Carr's strenghts and weaknesses are too.

MorKnolle
02-07-2006, 04:23 PM
Until VY plays in the NFL these aren't proven abilities, but if we are to look at VY's strengths and weaknesses then lets be sure to look at what Carr's strenghts and weaknesses are too.

I'm not sure I could have said it much better than that.

tsip
02-07-2006, 05:15 PM
tsip would you rather those of us that post things about what actual NFL people say not post these things. I may be wrong but usually a good percentage(above 60) of our post are insightful, objective, and without much emotion. I get it Staubach said Vince was a leader, Moon said Vince was not anything special, Pete Prisco said that Vince is a glorified Randall Cunningham with less accuracy. You let me know if you would rather us stop posting.

IMO, it 'cheapens' the credibility of a persons posts when they insert thoughts attributable to some 'expert' without either naming that person or providing a link to that person's statement. This board IMO would be a mess if every member tried to enrich their opinion by claiming 'so and so, an expert, said...' If it's your opinion, great--however, if it's someone elses, I think the members deserve to have verification...

Htown34s
02-07-2006, 05:20 PM
Moon said Vince was not anything special

He said the Texans should keep Carr, didn't say anything bad about VY, unless you have access to something I don't.

tsip
02-07-2006, 05:38 PM
"Moon said Vince was not anything special."

Here's Moon's actual statement--

"I could never think that far ahead," Moon said. "Vince Young should start thinking, 'I want to be an outstanding NFL quarterback.' That should be his first goal."

"His style is very conducive to the game today. He's versatile, and quarterbacks who are versatile are more successful."

Moon, however, advises Houston not to draft Young.

"If you're the Texans and want to start all over again, you take him," he said. "I don't think they're that far away. If they can get their offensive line together, and they have a pretty productive running back in Dominick Davis, I think you stay with what you have and come forward."

This is why I believe a poster should provide a quote or a link.

BlueThunder
02-07-2006, 05:45 PM
Did you see Vince scramble thru that obstacle corse stop on the hash and hit Jerome Mathis 60 yards down field holding that net backet...:redtowel:

AustinJB
02-07-2006, 06:36 PM
Do you consider that statement to be true for both the pro- and anti- Young camps, for lack of better terms?

If you're asking what I think you're asking....then yes.

I'll put it like this....I have questions about Bush's durability and whether or not he'll be successful against NFL defenses since they all have speed...and the only teams (or TEAM) that he faced w/ speed showed him to be less than spectacular. Those are my concerns w/ him (not to mention that the Texans don't need another RB, but that is irrelevant for this explanation.) So yes, in response to your question...I have a pre-determined opinion of Bush that can not be changed until Bush proves me wrong against an NFL defense. He can't do anything at the combine to make me change my mind.

VY, however, has people questioning his accuracy and arm strength. Those are all things that can be answered at the combine when he does his passing drills. At least to my knowledge, no one is questioning his durability, poise, leadership, etc (i.e. things that could only be proven in a game.) My original post was in reference to this. Even if VY is lights out at the combine and "proves" he has accuracy and a strong arm, some will try to find another reason why he can't be successful and why we shouldn't take him.

I think there are distinct differences between the two. Basically, Bush can't prove me wrong or right until we draft him and he is either lights out or a bust. VY could show others that his perceived weaknesses either are or are not justified at the combine....BEFORE we potentially take him w/ the #1.

MorKnolle
02-07-2006, 07:55 PM
If you're asking what I think you're asking....then yes.

I'll put it like this....I have questions about Bush's durability and whether or not he'll be successful against NFL defenses since they all have speed...and the only teams (or TEAM) that he faced w/ speed showed him to be less than spectacular. Those are my concerns w/ him (not to mention that the Texans don't need another RB, but that is irrelevant for this explanation.) So yes, in response to your question...I have a pre-determined opinion of Bush that can not be changed until Bush proves me wrong against an NFL defense. He can't do anything at the combine to make me change my mind.

VY, however, has people questioning his accuracy and arm strength. Those are all things that can be answered at the combine when he does his passing drills. At least to my knowledge, no one is questioning his durability, poise, leadership, etc (i.e. things that could only be proven in a game.) My original post was in reference to this. Even if VY is lights out at the combine and "proves" he has accuracy and a strong arm, some will try to find another reason why he can't be successful and why we shouldn't take him.

I think there are distinct differences between the two. Basically, Bush can't prove me wrong or right until we draft him and he is either lights out or a bust. VY could show others that his perceived weaknesses either are or are not justified at the combine....BEFORE we potentially take him w/ the #1.

I see where you're coming from on your concerns, but at the same time I don't think Vince will necessarily prove all the questions about him at the combine. He can show that he has some accuracy, but at the same time accuracy while standing or moving in a drill is different than accuracy when defeneses are on the field and in the heat of a game, and that as well can't be proven until he's on the field in a game. He also has more questions than just his accuracy and arm strength, at least according to some, but I don't want continue the "Vince bashing" by pointing out other questions on him, so I'll leave it at that.

Runner
02-07-2006, 08:54 PM
Don't you get it Tsip? It doesn't matter what VY does, some people already have a pre-determined opinion of him that can not/will not be changed.


If you're asking what I think you're asking....then yes.




Thanks for the thoughtful response, however what I meant to ask was do the pro-Young people also already have a pre-determined opinion of him (Young) that can not/will not be changed?

I surmise by your honest answer to the other question that you would admit that the answer is yes.

Personally I'm a trade down guy, although I waiver about taking Bush. I really don't think Young is what we need. This is not to say I'm anti-Young - he is a special talent and may make me regret my choice once he's in the pros.

It is just my opinion. This isn't directed at you, but thoughtful people can disagree without being pro/anti somebody. Reasonable discourse is fun; proselytizing frequently does more harm to a cause than good.

Lucky
02-07-2006, 09:15 PM
I'll put it like this....I have questions about Bush's durability and whether or not he'll be successful against NFL defenses since they all have speed...
What about Bush alarms you regarding his durability? I'd understand if Bush had a history of injuries (even the nagging types that DD has encountered). However, Reggie Bush never missed a game in his college career. Not one. Anytime a player steps on the football field, there's a chance of injury. Ced Benson was a very durable runner at UT, but was injured for much of his rookie season. Sometimes a player just has bad luck, and so could Reggie. But there's nothing in his history that would give concern for durability.

I'm with you on the speed issue. Straight line 40 times are one of the most overrated measurables of a football player (somewhere behind Wunderlich tests). But speed isn't Reggie Bush's greatest asset. It's his ability to make defenders miss and his vision that makes Bush a breakaway threat. That he's fast is one thing. That he can cut and manuver at full speed is what sets Reggie apart. Oh...and his versitility.

I can understand that you would prefer Young because of his upside and that he plays the QB position. NFL history would agree with you, as 7 of the last 8 top selections have been QBs. I can those who would prefer to trade down and take a player at a more pressing need, such as offensive tackle or defensive end. I think we could all concur that the Texans are more than one player away from becoming a contending team. But what I can't understand is dinging Reggie Bush as a football player over phantom concerns like durability and (too much?) speed. That I'll never understand.

tsip
02-07-2006, 09:17 PM
"at least according to some"

Well, that certainly tells us all we need to know about Vince!

Texans_Chick
02-07-2006, 09:48 PM
So you prefer flexible people over tendentious ones. Good luck with that! :)

On of my pet peeves are people who build a logical case for something, and since they can show the logic is correct they think they are therefore correct. They don't want to admit that while their logic might be flawless, the premises upon which their logic rests might be assumptions rather than facts. It is tedious to try to discuss something with someone who knows something is true because they believe it - especially when that something is a future event.

Exactly.

Many people come up with their point of view and opinion about something, BEFORE they actually try to think through the logic that supports that point of view. Which often leads to silly arguments because they don't realize that is what they are doing. They may have a sense of why they have that point of view, but not really the reasons figured out of why they feel that way. So everything becomes a justification for what their opinion is.

Personally, one of my pet peeves is generalizations in arguments. Even among the pro-Bush, pro-VY, and pro-trade down folks, you can see the nuances of people's beliefs are different. Just as examples....All pro-Bush people aren't blind anti-VY Carr homers, but some are crazily so. All pro-VY people aren't brokeback burnt orange kool-aid drinkers, but some are crazily so.

Making such generalizations is what some people do to troll. That it is more satisfying to some to ad hominem and paint "the other side" with a broad brush because it is what they do to get a reaction. It is what our society has become--rational, reasonable thought that tries to look at different sides of issues gets outshouted by people who make ridiculous generalizations and outrageous statements to get attention. That we even know Skip Bayless' name is a testiment to that. Or see any number of threads where thoughtful posts get lost in a quagmire of silly exaggerated tangential non-fact based arguments about race, religion, college affiliation, and assorted name calling.

AustinJB
02-08-2006, 12:03 AM
Thanks for the thoughtful response, however what I meant to ask was do the pro-Young people also already have a pre-determined opinion of him (Young) that can not/will not be changed?

I surmise by your honest answer to the other question that you would admit that the answer is yes.

Personally I'm a trade down guy, although I waiver about taking Bush. I really don't think Young is what we need. This is not to say I'm anti-Young - he is a special talent and may make me regret my choice once he's in the pros.

It is just my opinion. This isn't directed at you, but thoughtful people can disagree without being pro/anti somebody. Reasonable discourse is fun; proselytizing frequently does more harm to a cause than good.

Okay...understood. I DO have an opinion on VY....but I feel like it has been formed while watching him play in every single game that he has played. However, if he sucks it up...I can admit it and face up to it.:cool:

I just wonder if people on the other side (those who think VY doesn't have accuracy or a strong arm) will do the same.:)

Runner
02-08-2006, 12:12 AM
I just wonder if people on the other side (those who think VY doesn't have accuracy or a strong arm) will do the same.:)

Very few people have to admit anything on these boards - most of the expertise comes with hindsight and hedging. :rolleyes:

Personally I admit that I don't watch enough college football to know what to do with the first 3 rounds of the draft. I don't think I'm qualified to rank the top 100 prospects. That's probably why I'm not too concerned about who we pick - we are pretty sure to get someone who will help this team. I think that the experts on staff know more than I do.

Finally, I'm on record as saying the coaching change will do more to help us than the first pick anyway.

AustinJB
02-08-2006, 12:22 AM
What about Bush alarms you regarding his durability? I'd understand if Bush had a history of injuries (even the nagging types that DD has encountered). However, Reggie Bush never missed a game in his college career. Not one.........But there's nothing in his history that would give concern for durability.

I'm with you on the speed issue. Straight line 40 times are one of the most overrated measurables of a football player (somewhere behind Wunderlich tests). But speed isn't Reggie Bush's greatest asset. It's his ability to make defenders miss and his vision that makes Bush a breakaway threat. That he's fast is one thing. That he can cut and manuver at full speed is what sets Reggie apart. Oh...and his versitility.

But what I can't understand is dinging Reggie Bush as a football player over phantom concerns like durability and (too much?) speed. That I'll never understand.

Okay...let me clarify.

I'm not "dinging" Bush for having too much speed. I do question whether or not someone whose main asset is speed and making people miss will be successful. That alone does not make a player successful in the NFL. When I think of people like this, I think of Peter Warrick, etc.

The durability concerns are obviously not based upon past injuries. The concern is that he hardly ever got hit in college. In the NFL, he will not be able to make EVERYONE miss and/or outrun them....therefore he WILL get hit. Can he take these hits? Who knows? He has never really had to in the past. Maybe he can; maybe he can't. I see that as an unknown and risky w/ the #1 pick.

Other backs like Barry Sanders, and more recently Cadillac Williams, were not only fast and elusive w/ smaller bodies (similar to Bush)....they also showed in college that they could run between the tackles, take a pounding, drag tacklers w/ them, and remain healthy. While Bush has stayed healthy throughout his career, I've never seen this from him. Have you? Maybe I'm missing something...admitedly, I didn't watch every USC game.:twocents:

While posting this, I also feel the need to clarify that I'm not trying to bash Bush just b/c I want VY instead. Before the Rose Bowl when everyone seemed to be clamoring for Bush, I was firmly in the trade-down camp....meaning that I've always had these concerns and was not overly impressed w/ Bush (at least not to the extent that ESPN was.):rolleyes:

AustinJB
02-08-2006, 12:28 AM
we are pretty sure to get someone who will help this team. I think that the experts on staff know more than I do.

Have you witnessed ANY of our previous drafts? LOL.

No, I'm just kidding. We have some new draft evaluators now and I believe that they will do a good job as well. :)

Lucky
02-08-2006, 01:44 AM
The durability concerns are obviously not based upon past injuries. The concern is that he hardly ever got hit in college. In the NFL, he will not be able to make EVERYONE miss and/or outrun them....therefore he WILL get hit.
Sure, Bush made a lot of tacklers miss. He did find the end zone 41 times in 3 seasons. But, Bush also had over 600 touches over those 3 years. So, more often than not, Reggie was tackled. And got up to play another down every time.

Maybe he can do the same in the NFL, maybe he can't. But you can say that about any rookie coming into the NFL. So by your definition, all college players enter the NFL with "durability concerns." Including Vince.

Maybe I'm missing something...
Yes, I think you are missing a legit reason for questioning Bush's durability. And if a player's ability to run fast, make defenders miss, and not get hit is a bad thing...then Young's running ability must be discounted, as well. Does that make sense to you? Because I'm not seeing it.

Nighthawk
02-08-2006, 02:11 AM
The fact that people dont understand that Big Ben and David Carr are the same types of leaders is amazing.

This statement by itself demonstrates that you've taken leave of your senses. Carr is a guy who has been pampered and coddled by management, protected from any competition, allowed to run around and lob balls into the dirt, allowed to not learn anything about getting touch on his passes, allowed to curl up and get himself sacked at the slightest hint of pressure, a guy who cannot throw on the run and cannot hit a moving target, and who cannot read a defense or check through his "reads' to save his sould. For four years we've been putting up with his poor play at QB because somebody thinks that one day he might "mature" and turn into Brett Favre or somebody. It's freaking ridiculous, and yet here are folks saying "Why, the NFL scouts I talk to say thus and so about Vince Young and think Carr has it all." Probably the same NFL scouts that got us this poor little Davy QB to start with. Sure, he'd do great as a punching bag or tackling dummy, but I remind you his job is QB. Different requirements.

Nighthawk
02-08-2006, 02:22 AM
I've tried to share some insight from some NFL scouts that I have personally talked with on their thoughts on Vince since they are more qualified than the vast majority of us to assess his skills. In the end, our opinions on him do not really matter on this subject.

First, please don't come around quoting some NFL scouts "you've personally talked to" unless you're willing to quote them and give their names and positions and organizations. The NFL scouts that I've personally talked to say the Texans took a chance on a QB in a bad QB year and that David Carr has failed every test he's faced in the NFL. THey also say that they don't know about Young, but that he has a lot of the marks of being a great QB at the next level, something they say no one EVER thought Carr had.

Second, many of your remarks on what you want and what you like make perfect sense when articulated at essay length. Yet when distilled, they amount to little more than you want Bush (because he adds a unique weapon to our offense) or you'd prefer to trade down and work on the trenches.

Your arguments for Bush are very slim, seems to me. The other argument, trade down, doesn't really need much support because it makes so much sense, at least if we could get a number of extra picks.

The idea that Vince Young won't play in the first two years seems thin. This is the old NFL argument, and the Titans tried it with Steve McNair and almost destroyed his career before it got started. These are new times. Vince will play some in the first year and probably take over sometime in the second, wherever he goes, and whether or not someone goes down with an injury. And he will earn his spurs on the field just like everybody else.

I personally think we ought to try to trade Carr for the extra picks, take Vince Young, and then work on the trenches with the extra picks, our regular picks, and FA.

That's what the NFL people I spend a lot of time with say is the best course for the Texans.

Big B Texan Fan
02-08-2006, 02:25 AM
This statement by itself demonstrates that you've taken leave of your senses. Carr is a guy who has been pampered and coddled by management, protected from any competition, allowed to run around and lob balls into the dirt, allowed to not learn anything about getting touch on his passes, allowed to curl up and get himself sacked at the slightest hint of pressure, a guy who cannot throw on the run and cannot hit a moving target, and who cannot read a defense or check through his "reads' to save his sould. For four years we've been putting up with his poor play at QB because somebody thinks that one day he might "mature" and turn into Brett Favre or somebody. It's freaking ridiculous, and yet here are folks saying "Why, the NFL scouts I talk to say thus and so about Vince Young and think Carr has it all." Probably the same NFL scouts that got us this poor little Davy QB to start with. Sure, he'd do great as a punching bag or tackling dummy, but I remind you his job is QB. Different requirements.
:thumbup

Fighting Blue Hen
02-08-2006, 03:45 AM
Here's Moon's actual statement--


"His style is very conducive to the game today. He's versatile, and quarterbacks who are versatile are more successful."

Moon, however, advises Houston not to draft Young.

"If you're the Texans and want to start all over again, you take him," he said.

Moon should have stopped right there because coming off a 2-14 and having the 1st pick in the draft, we ARE starting over again. If by some chance Carr doesn't improve and continues to play the same, we will be delaying that new start if the team decides to continue to wait on him to develop.

cadahnic
02-08-2006, 08:44 AM
It is strange to come to this particular thread and see Coach C and Mork under attack. They have been objective in most of their posts and all most all the time given insight and factual information about things. Neither of them has said they do not like VY as a player or as a QB, but dont think he is right for our team. Mork, very extensively, explained his position about his actual thoughts on VY. Just an FYI if the people on this board who actually know about the daily workings of the Texans started posting everything and anything about them then they would likely be repremanded quite heavily. So when someone hears something or has an inside track I take it with a grain of salt, but I also listen because they may know more than what I do. Vinny has inside track yet he is not generally questioned, but He has been under attack several times since I have been on this board. I understand the VY love, I can see why you guys want him, and I can see why he is not a good fit for this team. Discuss the issue without the attack would make this board alot better.
Also, to Nighthawk you are discussing David's perceived weaknesses, but you never once bring up the subject of the statement which is leadership.

thunderkyss
02-08-2006, 09:05 AM
It is strange to come to this particular thread and see Coach C and Mork under attack. They have been objective in most of their posts and all most all the time given insight and factual information about things. Neither of them has said they do not like VY as a player or as a QB, but dont think he is right for our team. Mork, very extensively, explained his position about his actual thoughts on VY. Just an FYI if the people on this board who actually know about the daily workings of the Texans started posting everything and anything about them then they would likely be repremanded quite heavily. So when someone hears something or has an inside track I take it with a grain of salt, but I also listen because they may know more than what I do. Vinny has inside track yet he is not generally questioned, but He has been under attack several times since I have been on this board. I understand the VY love, I can see why you guys want him, and I can see why he is not a good fit for this team. Discuss the issue without the attack would make this board alot better.
Also, to Nighthawk you are discussing David's perceived weaknesses, but you never once bring up the subject of the statement which is leadership.


Morknolle specifically said he is trying to balance the Young hype by bringing up his weaknesses...... i.e. he isn't beeing completely objective... he wants you to hear both sides of the story, but let's other people give you all the pro's, while he focuses on the cons......

Now, I don't have a problem when he says he heard someone say, or even that someone in the know told him this or that.... he knows a lot about football, and players, that I don't believe he is just a casual fan, so personally, I let it ride...... but a lot of the things he says shoots down the Texans plans for printing a #10 jersey, so I can see how some folks don't want to accept that, get discouraged, and a little upset.

Me, I truly do hope we trade down. I'd be upset if we draft Bush.... so I'll continue to pimp Vince till draft day, regardless what Morknolle says.

Lucky
02-08-2006, 09:09 AM
The idea that Vince Young won't play in the first two years seems thin. This is the old NFL argument, and the Titans tried it with Steve McNair and almost destroyed his career before it got started.
Did you ever see Steve McNair play during his 1st 2 seasons here in Houston? The guy barely knew how to take a QB snap. McNair was incredibly raw. Talented, but raw. Until Mike Heimerdinger came from Denver to become OC in Nashville, McNair's passing game consisted of hitting his TE Frank Wycheck on rollouts. McNair was in his 7th season before Tennessee had a WR with over 1000 yards receiving.

How long it takes Vince Young to become a NFL QB remains to be seen. But there's no question that Fisher/Reese handled McNair correctly his 1st 2 seasons in the NFL.

cadahnic
02-08-2006, 09:18 AM
I think I am lost are people upset that other posters bring up VY's weaknesses or is it that they do not agree with them. Personally I think VY is the second coming of Randall Cunningham and he has done nothing to show me otherwise. That is a damn good QB in my opinion. I do think it will take him a season or two to be prepared in the NFL, but with the Titans or whatever non-playoff team he goes to he will get spot duty. Like Lucky said hopefully he is not rushed into the fray to quickly because it may hurt his development.

thunderkyss
02-08-2006, 09:51 AM
I think I am lost are people upset that other posters bring up VY's weaknesses or is it that they do not agree with them. Personally I think VY is the second coming of Randall Cunningham and he has done nothing to show me otherwise. That is a damn good QB in my opinion. I do think it will take him a season or two to be prepared in the NFL, but with the Titans or whatever non-playoff team he goes to he will get spot duty. Like Lucky said hopefully he is not rushed into the fray to quickly because it may hurt his development.

I'm not upset at all....

What I would like to see, is the Texans Draft him. sign Carr's 2 year option. $5 millions dollars will be spread over three years. $1.6 million dollars. Unless they move $2million on 2005's cap, then we'll be $1.5mil + Salary into Carr. He get's 8 games to show us he can get it done. For me, success would mean 4 out of 5 games........... is that reasonable?? If he can't do that, then we start Vince, & get him ready for 2007.

Now in my plan, for David Carr to retire as a Texan, he's got to perform well for 2 years...... if he wins 4 out of the first eight in 2006, he plays the other 8. If he can't win 4 of 8 again, he will be dealt. If he does, he start's 2007, and it starts over agian. Except he's got to win 5 of 8.. if we aren't 10-6 at the end of 2007, we'll just drop him, and let him go, unless we sneak into the play-offs @ 9-7 and he wins a playoff game. If he looses the playoff game, we're going another direction. If we are 10-6, we work on trading Vince.

cadahnic
02-08-2006, 10:06 AM
When you look at your idea it is reasonable other than the cap situation puts us in a bit of a bind. We have alot to address and the 55M we will have to pay VY means we cannot get some of the possible players needed to solidfy positions to ensure those wins.

Lucky
02-08-2006, 10:14 AM
Now in my plan, for David Carr to retire as a Texan, he's got to perform well for 2 years...... if he wins 4 out of the first eight in 2006, he plays the other 8. If he can't win 4 of 8 again, he will be dealt. If he does, he start's 2007, and it starts over agian. Except he's got to win 5 of 8.. if we aren't 10-6 at the end of 2007, we'll just drop him, and let him go, unless we sneak into the play-offs @ 9-7 and he wins a playoff game. If he looses the playoff game, we're going another direction. If we are 10-6, we work on trading Vince.
I bet you are a big fan of if-then-else flowcharts. :)

Seriously, wouldn't it be easier for Carr to accomplish these goals if he had a Reggie Bush or D'Brickashaw Ferguson on his side? By not getting a player with some immediate impact, you aren't giving Carr the best chance to succeed. I guess it boils down to, do you want the Texans to be improved next year? Or do you want Vince?

My feeling is if the Texans want Young, then they should get rid of Carr. And the best way to do that is to not pick up the option (2 or 3 years) and use the cap money saved on improving the offensive line. Bring in a vet QB (if you can find one that wants to play here), and do not allow Young to step on the field at QB until that offensive line begins to look like a professional unit.

Picking up Carr's option and trading him is a waste of cap space. Creating a QB controversy is ridiculous for Carr, Young, and the team. The option is clear. Either go with Carr and whatever the Texans can find in the draft with the 1st pick. Or select Young and use the cap space alloted for Carr to make sure Vince never has to endure what David went through here.

thunderkyss
02-08-2006, 10:19 AM
When you look at your idea it is reasonable other than the cap situation puts us in a bit of a bind. We have alot to address and the 55M we will have to pay VY means we cannot get some of the possible players needed to solidfy positions to ensure those wins.

Well, I'll need better figures to figure(hehe) that out.

First and Foremost, I need a good list of what I need. I guess Kubes is going to have to talk to staff & watch film to figure this out. Then I need to know how much money we're going to have(actually, that's Casserly's problem) Then I have to know who is available through FA, and who is available in the draft. But I'll tell you this....... I've never liked using draft picks, especially not high picks(those are for the future) other than defensive players high in the draft, with hopes that they will make an immediate impact. I would much rather go FA to find Ol talent that will help me in the upcoming year.

And to me...... when people start using phrases like "too many wholes" that's a sign that we're rebuilding, whether(sp) we want to or not.

cadahnic
02-08-2006, 10:24 AM
Personally Thunder I would like to use our high pick on defense also. I think Mario Williams puts us in a position to win immediately and adds a toughness and athleticsm to our D trench. He can play standing up or hand down and at 6'6" 280 he is a Shawne Merrimen type monster rusher. I think in the second we can take a linemen similar and possibly better than Pitts in Winston(hopefully) and then we look more to the defense side of the ball. On offense the only real drafts I want to make are OT(Winston), Interior OL(Mangold), and possibly WR(Stovall) or TE(Thomas or Fasano), past those three or four guys I think we need to go defense. Coach C. and Mork are working on a long post about team needs and draft position rankings, I dont know if they will post that before or after the combine though. I have a feeling they will be pretty busy during combine week.

Kaiser Toro
02-08-2006, 10:28 AM
It is strange to come to this particular thread and see Coach C and Mork under attack. They have been objective in most of their posts and all most all the time given insight and factual information about things. Neither of them has said they do not like VY as a player or as a QB, but dont think he is right for our team. Mork, very extensively, explained his position about his actual thoughts on VY. Just an FYI if the people on this board who actually know about the daily workings of the Texans started posting everything and anything about them then they would likely be repremanded quite heavily. So when someone hears something or has an inside track I take it with a grain of salt, but I also listen because they may know more than what I do. Vinny has inside track yet he is not generally questioned, but He has been under attack several times since I have been on this board. I understand the VY love, I can see why you guys want him, and I can see why he is not a good fit for this team. Discuss the issue without the attack would make this board alot better.
Also, to Nighthawk you are discussing David's perceived weaknesses, but you never once bring up the subject of the statement which is leadership.


Well said.

MorKnolle
02-08-2006, 10:47 AM
First, please don't come around quoting some NFL scouts "you've personally talked to" unless you're willing to quote them and give their names and positions and organizations. The NFL scouts that I've personally talked to say the Texans took a chance on a QB in a bad QB year and that David Carr has failed every test he's faced in the NFL. THey also say that they don't know about Young, but that he has a lot of the marks of being a great QB at the next level, something they say no one EVER thought Carr had.

I'm not at liberty to say who they are, but I assure you they know what they are talking about, and if you don't want to believe that, it's fine and it really won't bother me, you can wallow in the dark all you want. I don't see you quoting your NFL sources either, or most people for that matter. People will make a lot of stuff up, but at the same time some information that is shared, if it is true information, probably was not meant to be spread and therefore its source cannot be revealed, it's up to you and whoever else is reading to decide for yourself if you think that is knowledgable information or not, that's what I do when I read things and frequently it is pretty clear to me (at least in my mind) if what is being said is by a person that understands football or not, or if information or opinions from others are being shared if those are truly from reputable sources.

Second, many of your remarks on what you want and what you like make perfect sense when articulated at essay length. Yet when distilled, they amount to little more than you want Bush (because he adds a unique weapon to our offense) or you'd prefer to trade down and work on the trenches.

And all the other posts on here do make some kind of sense other than people just want Vince or Bush? There is so little actual substance that generally goes around on any message boards, that's just the way it is on message boards with fans that don't have access to the inner workings of the team or league, and some of which (not pointing to anyone in particular but there are some) that don't know much about football itself. I've seen very little concrete evidence from Vince supporters other than a few quotes they grab from someone on national TV praising him, I've seen very little concrete evidence from Bush supporters other than the same type of quotes that they found that someone said. Of course anyone that supports a certain point of view is going to only quote what few random people they've found that they think will support that view too. What are you expecting from the boards? Unfortunately people cannot get a true window into what is actually going on inside the organization and that is not freely given out to the public. I try to share what little information I hear from the people that associate with the team and have this info, but again like with every single argument on this board, those are a matter of someone's opinion as is every analysis of a draft prospect, so my arguments are not any less substantiated than any others on here, and at least most of what I post I am getting the opinions from people that I know that are associated with the organization that at least have a say in what happens with the team rather than Joe Schmoe on TV.

Your arguments for Bush are very slim, seems to me. The other argument, trade down, doesn't really need much support because it makes so much sense, at least if we could get a number of extra picks.

Yes my argument for Bush is somewhat slim because I don't think that is the best option for our team and I cannot find that much information to support why we should draft him. The same applies for Vince, I cannot find much information that makes sense to me as to why we should draft him. If you look back on the boards about two months ago when Reggie Bush was the rave of the majority of the people speaking out on this board, I was making similar counter arguments to the mass amount of Bush propaganda and opinions because I disagree with that particular view that he is the best solution for our team and I was expressing my own view. That has since changed and now the overwhelming amount of propaganda and opinions that are professed on this board are in favor of Vince Young, and I don't think that is the best solution for our team so I am going to make my case against what is the current popular trend and voice my opinions. I didn't see you guys that currently support Vince complaining a couple months ago when I was arguing against Reggie Bush and couldn't come up with a "solid" enough case against him, but now that I have a view opposing yours you want to complain about it and voice your opinion too, but I am being called unreasonable for not posting arguments with "substance". I have noticed that the old Bush supporters no longer comlplain about my arguments and generally support my posts when they get on the boards since I am no longer mainly arguing against their point of view.

The idea that Vince Young won't play in the first two years seems thin. This is the old NFL argument, and the Titans tried it with Steve McNair and almost destroyed his career before it got started. These are new times. Vince will play some in the first year and probably take over sometime in the second, wherever he goes, and whether or not someone goes down with an injury. And he will earn his spurs on the field just like everybody else.

It is rare for rookie QBs to play unless they are forced to due to injuries, so you can't argue that. If Vince progresses and is ready, then he should see significant action in his 2nd season, but my personal opinion and the opinions of the people I have talked to think that it looks like it will take him longer than one year to be ready to step in, that is our opinion, you have yours. It is up to Vince to prove one of us wrong.

I personally think we ought to try to trade Carr for the extra picks, take Vince Young, and then work on the trenches with the extra picks, our regular picks, and FA.

That's what the NFL people I spend a lot of time with say is the best course for the Texans.

That's fine, if you think that is best for this team then you stick by that notion. I don't think that is best for this team and I'm going to stick by my guns and what I believe is the best option for us. We will have to wait for a couple months and see what the teams does and and then wait a year or more and see how it works out for them.

As for this statement:
The fact that people dont understand that Big Ben and David Carr are the same types of leaders is amazing.
I tend to agree. He's clearly not saying that Ben and David have had the same team success in this league, that argument would be ridiculous. He is saying they lead their teams (or attempt to if you don't want to think Carr is a leader) in the same way, neither is a guy that is very vocal on the field or calls his guys out to the media or gets on TV and makes guarantees on the outcome of games like Jerry Porter, but just because you don't see them mouthing off to their teammates in public does not mean they don't lead the team in some fashion and that they're not respected. Brett Favre is not overly vocal and doesn't usually call out his guys, is he not a leader? The vast majority of people would say that he is, mainly because he has had success in this league and led a team to the Super Bowl which obviously David has not. It is hard to get a good read on what Carr can become since he has had so little talent around him, he's had virtually no personal coaching the last four years, and his offensive system they've had him run was a sham, but ask yourself honestly if Carr had the type of team around him that Ben Roethlisberger or Brett Favre in the Packers glory days, or Peyton Manning, do you think he would not have some success and at least be able to lead those teams to near the level of success that they had? (notice I said near, not the exact same)

Htown34s
02-08-2006, 10:55 AM
Damn, MorKnolle. Do you have a job? You can write some long posts!

I agree with you, pretty much everything on here is a person's own opinion or their interpretation of a player's performance. Thats why you'll never solve any arguments on a message board.

But yet we keep trying...:twocents:

thunderkyss
02-08-2006, 11:03 AM
that is our opinion, you have yours. It is up to Vince to prove one of us wrong.

I don't think that is best for this team and I'm going to stick by my guns and what I believe is the best option for us. We will have to wait for a couple months and see what the teams does and and then wait a year or more and see how it works out for them.




just for grins, please, another foray into futility.... answer this.

Is it your opinion, that if we are looking for a QB 2 years from now, you are confident there will be a prospect as good as Lienart/Vince... upside potential and all?? Basically, that While these two are special, they aren't that special, is that where you're at??

Or do you think the odds are slimer than slim that we would in-fact need another QB two/three years from now??

MorKnolle
02-08-2006, 11:06 AM
Morknolle specifically said he is trying to balance the Young hype by bringing up his weaknesses...... i.e. he isn't beeing completely objective... he wants you to hear both sides of the story, but let's other people give you all the pro's, while he focuses on the cons......

Now, I don't have a problem when he says he heard someone say, or even that someone in the know told him this or that.... he knows a lot about football, and players, that I don't believe he is just a casual fan, so personally, I let it ride...... but a lot of the things he says shoots down the Texans plans for printing a #10 jersey, so I can see how some folks don't want to accept that, get discouraged, and a little upset.

Me, I truly do hope we trade down. I'd be upset if we draft Bush.... so I'll continue to pimp Vince till draft day, regardless what Morknolle says.

See thunderkyss, I disagree with your position on this issue and quite frankly we disagree on most of what we write on here, but I can at least respect your opinion and how you write posts and I think the two of us can have intelligent and productive dialogues on here and try to exchange our views in a reasonable manner. As I had said, I generally present more of the negative side of Vince's game. I have posted some positives about him in the past, but I have seen so many posts on all his good aspects, and some of which are pretty exaggerated or have no relevant info to support their claim, that I tend to post mainly on his weaknesses to have both sides of the argument out there. As for the one yesterday that seems to have set this whole thing off, I was specifically asked why I did not think Vince was the best choice for this team, so of course when I am asked why I don't think he's the best option and what weaknesses I see in him, I'm going to post those weaknesses since that is what I was asked about. A couple of us are working on putting together a team needs list and draft prospect rankings and we should have that done by the end of the week, so we will have as objective of a view on all the players as we can get for that post, so if you're wanting a completely objective view on guys and not this debate on Vince vs. Reggie tune in for that post which should be up sometime this weekend.

MorKnolle
02-08-2006, 11:14 AM
Damn, MorKnolle. Do you have a job? You can write some long posts!

I agree with you, pretty much everything on here is a person's own opinion or their interpretation of a player's performance. Thats why you'll never solve any arguments on a message board.

But yet we keep trying...:twocents:

Yes I do have a job but I have some down time during the day that I can get on here and check what's new a couple times throughout the day. Once I get typing on ideas they sometimes just get going and before I know if they are 3-4 pages long. Indeed anyone coming out of college cannot really be objectively rated, unfortunately there is no computer system controlling it all that can rate people like on Madden (and even those initial ratings are someone's opinion), it is all a matter of someone's opinion and the only way to really figure out how good a person can be is to wait and see what they do in the NFL, but even then the level of their success becomes a matter of opinion. All you can hope for is that the people that are in charge of the team figure out what is going to be good for the team and can make those decisions and bring success to our team.

Htown34s
02-08-2006, 11:23 AM
Or do you think the odds are slimer than slim that we would in-fact need another QB two/three years from now??

I've listed numerous downsides to keeping Carr, but not all in one place. Maybe I should round them up.

But I just remembered one: what if we keep Carr and he actually regresses or performs the same next year? I'd say that the fans don't have patience for Carr to have another bad year. So then do we take a QB in 2007?

So we'd basically be passing up a possible star at the position to give Carr one more try? I think that is very possible. By not taking VY you are saying that Carr will have a breakthrough season next year. If he doesn't, you're screwed.

cadahnic
02-08-2006, 11:25 AM
If he doesnt and the coaching staff feel like he is not going to ever have a breakthough year then they would draft a QB in next year's draft. There are several guys that will be worth the pick including Brady Quinn or someone of the sort.

Kaiser Toro
02-08-2006, 11:30 AM
If we need a QB, I hope we do not spend 1st day money on a QB. We got Kubiak because one of his greatest traits is that he is a whiz in developing QB's. This is one position that a scouting department and head coach should be working in harmony.

We should not pay top dollar for unproven and inexperienced QB's until we have everything in else place. Our short history should be a constant reminder that we can learn from, not just lament.

cadahnic
02-08-2006, 11:36 AM
I really agree with you on that one. I think with DC though we have that QB we have already spent on and it is time to build the team and our identity. I know that Mr. McNair cares about the fans, but knows that if he is winning regardless of the players that are on the team Reliant will be packed.

MorKnolle
02-08-2006, 11:38 AM
just for grins, please, another foray into futility.... answer this.

Is it your opinion, that if we are looking for a QB 2 years from now, you are confident there will be a prospect as good as Lienart/Vince... upside potential and all?? Basically, that While these two are special, they aren't that special, is that where you're at??

Or do you think the odds are slimer than slim that we would in-fact need another QB two/three years from now??

Of course there is a decent chance we made need another QB in a couple year. I don't think half of a season under a new coach and offense and hopefully new players surrounding him on offense (some of which will be rookies and will have their own learning curve time) would be adequate time to measure Carr's development under the new regime, but by the end of the first year you should have a decent idea of whether he is going to work out or not, and if it looks like he is not going to make it then it likely means we will be towards the top of the draft again next year and could look for a QB then, especially if we trade down and get an additional 1st round pick next year.
I think Leinart is a pretty special QB, and I think Vince definitely can become a special QB. I think Vince has the potential to be a more special QB than Leinart, but as of this moment he is not as special and it is yet to be seen whether he develops and surpasses Leinart. However, I think Carr can be a special QB as well, and I think after bringing in the new coach and offense the best way to evaluate if Carr can make it is to finally surround him with some better talent and give him the tools that any QB will need to succeed. Adding Reggie Bush gives him another offensive weapon. We need to address OLine at some point high in the draft. Trading down would yield us more picks and still allow us to build the OLine for Carr, bring in a couple other skill guys to help in the offense, and we can do a better job addressing the defense.
No QB could succeed in our offense last year with the lack of talent and horrible system, I hope there is no disagreement on that. The system is hopefully fixed, and now hopefully we'll add some additional talent so that any QB that we have can succeed. I see the merit of bringing in another QB as an insurance policy in case the one doesn't work out, but at the same time using that #1 pick on a QB rather than using it to add someone else to the team that can bring something to the team and help our current QB is, in my opinion, setting Carr up for failure, and once he goes down likely setting Vince up for failure too as he will have the same level of talent around him.
Adding Reggie Bush would bring in the biggest playmaker/home run threat that is available in the draft (not including QBs), I don't think there is much argument to that. So bringing in a talent like that adds a definite playmaking capability to the offense and gives whatever QB we have another great option to get the ball to, whether it's as a RB or WR. At the same time we are pretty solid at RB and decent at WR (could probably use a bigger possession WR), and our OLine and defense are bad, so trading down would allow us to focus our top pick on one of those two areas that are of biggest need for us (OT in D'Brick or DE in Mario Williams), and give us additional picks that we can use to fill in the rest of our OLine, defense, TE, and maybe that additional WR. That is why I think that is the best option for us.

If we draft Vince, I would not really be disappointed and I will still support our team and him. However, I think our team needs a lot of help on defense (almost every position other than D-Rob and DT) and some areas of offense (OLine, TE, and playmakers), and not using our top pick to bring in a top-tier talent at one of those spots would not be a wise pick. I think Vince should be a great talent in the NFL, he has great size, good speed, he has displayed leadership on the college level, he is a pretty smart player for a draft prospect but he still does make many mistakes. Many of his weaknesses are due to his technique or the system he's been in, and those are generally easier to fix, but they will take some time, and I think David Carr can be as good of a QB as Vince can. If we drafted Vince and kept David Carr, Carr would obviously start at the beginning of the year, but the first mistake he makes is going to bring boos from the crowd, chants for Vince, and extra criticism from the local media and many fans. Once Vince comes in, he is going to have the same team that David does, the same lack of talent (some of that should be fixed, but again passing up the opportunity to use our top pick to bring in an offensive weapon or defensive star will hold back the talent advancement). Vince will be less prepared to play than Carr is, so he's most likely going to experience the same, if not more, knocks that Carr will. Then how are fans going to respond? Either they will have these grandiose expectations for Vince that he won't be able to match and then he will be booed to, or since Vince is the local hero, he is going to get a pass with the fans, the same pass that many people have been complaining that Carr has received from our prior coaching staff. Keep in mind that the rest of the team and the young talent that we're hopefully bringing in is also adjusting to a new coach and system, so there will be some rough moments early on, and with Vince sitting in the wings I see the crowd being even more antsy and hostile towards Carr. Either way, I don't see that situation being good for Carr or good for Vince, and it takes away our best chance (our 1st round pick) at bringing in offensive talent to help whichever QB we go with or to bring in a stud defensive player to anchor our defense and help get our offense back on the field without having to sit out 6-9 minutes for another 80 yard TD drive by the opposing team, which we saw far too much of this year. Bringing in Vince would help ensure that one of our QBs is talented enough to lead this team, but in my mind it delays fixing the problematic areas of our team and holding back our talent development and is setting up both of these QBs for failure.
Also going back to your earlier question on maybe needing a QB in a couple years, I think that after this season we will have a better read on whether Carr looks like the answer for this offense or not. If he's not then we can start looking for a replacement QB, and we will likely be near the top of the draft again, especially if we trade down and have two 1st round picks. In my opinion, Brady Quinn is the best NFL prospect at QB that played in college this season, and he will be available next season, so, from what I saw this year and the type of players that they all are, I would rather have Quinn than Leinart or Vince anyways. I think he is the most prototypical NFL QB of the bunch, so if we genuinely put everything we have in this offseason into improving our team and giving Carr a legitimate chance to prove whether or not he is the man, and he ends up disappointing again, then we should be in a position to draft Brady Quinn next season to be our future QB, and as I said I'd rather have him than Leinart or Vince from what I've seen. On a side note, if we trade down and end up with two high 1sts next year and are displeased with Carr, we could be in a position to draft both Brady Quinn and Adrian Peterson to give us a stud QB and RB to build our future offense on, and as of now I'd rather have Quinn than any QB coming out this year and I'd rather have Peterson than Bush.

I've listed numerous downsides to keeping Carr, but not all in one place. Maybe I should round them up.

But I just remembered one: what if we keep Carr and he actually regresses or performs the same next year? I'd say that the fans don't have patience for Carr to have another bad year. So then do we take a QB in 2007?

So we'd basically be passing up a possible star at the position to give Carr one more try? I think that is very possible. By not taking VY you are saying that Carr will have a breakthrough season next year. If he doesn't, you're screwed.

As I mentioned above, if we deem that Carr is not worthy then we'll likely be towards the top of the draft next year, and I'd rather have Brady Quinn than Leinart or Vince anyways, and after trading down this year (if we do), we could also have a shot at Adrian Peterson. I think if we want an honest evaluation of Carr, we need to give him the most tools we can to succeed, and it will probably take the full season for Carr, our current players, and any incoming rookies to start running our new offense to its max potential, so we can't be too hasty to pass judgment on Carr next year either, and I think having Vince sitting on the bench will bring out the anger and impatience in the fans more than it should.

Well thunder, you asked for my take on it, and I think that sums it up pretty well, so in the 10 minutes it takes for people to read thru this short novel I realized I just wrote, I'll catch up on the other threads out there.

tulexan
02-08-2006, 11:43 AM
Think about it. He had 41 TD's on around 600 touches. That means that he averaged a TD every 15 times he touched the ball.

That is a crazy statistic. I don't know what is more impressive. That number or the average TD length of 30 yards.

cadahnic
02-08-2006, 11:45 AM
Mork you are my dogg and everything, but these increasingly long posts of yours are getting a bit tedious, it could be because I already know your opinion on the matter, but damn kid paraphrase or something. Or start issueing cliff notes. You know I dont like reading.

MorKnolle
02-08-2006, 11:51 AM
If we need a QB, I hope we do not spend 1st day money on a QB. We got Kubiak because one of his greatest traits is that he is a whiz in developing QB's. This is one position that a scouting department and head coach should be working in harmony.

We should not pay top dollar for unproven and inexperienced QB's until we have everything in else place. Our short history should be a constant reminder that we can learn from, not just lament.

Excellent point, I don't think we should pay that much money for an unproven QB until we have most of the rest of our team in place and he has a chance to succeed. Bringing in a rookie QB to our current team would be like bringing rookie David Carr in 2002 all over again and feeding him to the wolves. We need to build this team up and give Carr (or whoever we decide should be our future QB if we deem that to not be Carr) a chance to succeed. Our previous coaching staff spent four years here and in my mind never gave Carr a chance to succeed. Here's hoping that our new guys can and will.

MorKnolle
02-08-2006, 11:53 AM
Mork you are my dogg and everything, but these increasingly long posts of yours are getting a bit tedious, it could be because I already know your opinion on the matter, but damn kid paraphrase or something. Or start issueing cliff notes. You know I dont like reading.

We are on the same page most of the time so I wouldn't think you'd need to read thru all of it. I'm just trying to help out the guys that don't see our point of view and are having trouble understanding our reasoning, and once again I was asked for my take on it so I gave it everything I could think of. That is pretty exhausting though.

chuckm
02-08-2006, 02:30 PM
found this at http://www.draftdaddy.com/prospects/allStarChallenge.cfm




With regards to the signal callers, Alabama QB Brodie Croyle won the long distance competition over Texas QB Vince Young, Clemson QB Charlie Whitehurst and UCLA QB S. Croyle's best was an impressive throw of 68 yards, outpacing the other quarterbacks by six or so yards.

The quarterbacks warmed up out view of the crowd, limiting the opportunity to extensively study Vince Young's mechanics. His first two throws in the long distance competition were disqualified, as they landed well outside of the target landing area, which prompted DeAngelo Williams to note that "[Young] may have won the national championship but wasn't going to win everything," much to the amusement of the crowd and the other participants. Young's third throw barely qualified, landing just inside the rightmost barrier where his other two throws sailed over it. The throw was just over 60 yards, the same as Whitehurst and Olson.

Young came back to win the scrambling event, as he was the only quarterback to complete both throws on the run. Each player only did one attempt at the scrambling/obstacle course, and Young was only quarterback to make the downfield throw across his body into a bin, and was in fact the only quarterback to hit the bin. That throw was about 30 yards, and was right on the money,

The other throw in the event had the quarterbacks high stepping over a series of small hurdles, and again Young hit the target, while all of the other quarterbacks were low. His throws had impressive zip on them.

This performance did nothing to answer pre-draft questions about Young's ability to throw from the pocket, as scouts could clearly note that his strength is still throwing on the run. Though one of the most physically talented players and perhaps the one with the most upside in the draft, Young is also one of its biggest question marks.

Of the other quarterbacks, Croyle was most impressive with his win in the long distance competition. He has likely established himself as the beginning of the second-tier of quarterbacks, behind Young, Matt Leinart, and Jay Cutler. Whitehurst and Olson did nothing to distinguish themselves from each other or their other likely company on the second day of the draft.

Texans_Chick
02-08-2006, 04:55 PM
found this at http://www.draftdaddy.com/prospects/allStarChallenge.cfm




.....Young came back to win the scrambling event, as he was the only quarterback to complete both throws on the run. Each player only did one attempt at the scrambling/obstacle course, and Young was only quarterback to make the downfield throw across his body into a bin, and was in fact the only quarterback to hit the bin. That throw was about 30 yards, and was right on the money,

The other throw in the event had the quarterbacks high stepping over a series of small hurdles, and again Young hit the target, while all of the other quarterbacks were low. His throws had impressive zip on them.

This performance did nothing to answer pre-draft questions about Young's ability to throw from the pocket, as scouts could clearly note that his strength is still throwing on the run. Though one of the most physically talented players and perhaps the one with the most upside in the draft, Young is also one of its biggest question marks.....

Finally watched this on TiVO.

A couple of observations I think haven't been brough up yet in this thread:

1. Not only did VY finish first in the scambling event, but what stood out to me was how much easier that it looked for him, versus everyone else. Everyone else looked like they were really trying hard, Croyle fumbled it and looked like he almost quit, and then VY did it and it looked amazingly easy for him. It was strange how much the contrast was to me.

2. He gave his love to Houston, and said how he was thankful that people were writing the coach about him. and then when they asked him who he would be Ok playing with he says something like "Houston, Tennessee, New York....." with New Orleans notably not mentioned. They didn't ask him about that omission.

jerek
02-08-2006, 06:09 PM
Mork, I like your work as much as any guy on the board, but how about a paragraph mark or two? Difficult to read and my eyes/mind get lost ... you have good insights, just please separate them a little.

MorKnolle
02-08-2006, 06:15 PM
Finally watched this on TiVO.

A couple of observations I think haven't been brough up yet in this thread:

1. Not only did VY finish first in the scambling event, but what stood out to me was how much easier that it looked for him, versus everyone else. Everyone else looked like they were really trying hard, Croyle fumbled it and looked like he almost quit, and then VY did it and it looked amazingly easy for him. It was strange how much the contrast was to me.

2. He gave his love to Houston, and said how he was thankful that people were writing the coach about him. and then when they asked him who he would be Ok playing with he says something like "Houston, Tennessee, New York....." with New Orleans notably not mentioned. They didn't ask him about that omission.

Vince did look good in the scrambling drill, but look at who he was going up against, Drew Olson (a pure pocket QB, and not a great one at that), Brodie Croyle (not overly mobile and as you said he fumbled it and basically gave up), and Charlie Whitehurst (a big QB that's also not very mobile and coming off shoulder surgery). Young looked good in that drill, but keep in mind the level of his competition for it and please don't fall into the trap of proclaiming that little made-for-TV event was "clear" evidence that Vince can throw the ball with the best of them. I'm sure that event did little to sway the minds (one way or another on any of the players involved) of most people around the country or that are involved in the NFL in any way.

Texans_Chick
02-08-2006, 06:41 PM
Vince did look good in the scrambling drill, but look at who he was going up against, Drew Olson (a pure pocket QB, and not a great one at that), Brodie Croyle (not overly mobile and as you said he fumbled it and basically gave up), and Charlie Whitehurst (a big QB that's also not very mobile and coming off shoulder surgery). Young looked good in that drill, but keep in mind the level of his competition for it and please don't fall into the trap of proclaiming that little made-for-TV event was "clear" evidence that Vince can throw the ball with the best of them. I'm sure that event did little to sway the minds (one way or another on any of the players involved) of most people around the country or that are involved in the NFL in any way.


Hello??! Did I say anything about "clear" evidence or the made for TV thingy meaning anything?? If anything, my earlier posts were pretty ambivalent about that. :cool: This thread was started just because I thought people would be interested in this event and at least it was entertaining to me to watch. The draft ain't until April, we still have to wait for the combine and workouts, so there ain't much going on.

All I said was that VY looked smooth as silk doing this drill and the rest looked like they were huffing and puffing. FWIW. It was just kinda interesting to me.

But as long as you want to walk down the road of how the top QBs in the draft would have done on this drill, I betcha Mr. knee brace Leinart would not have looked as smooth as VY did. Does Jacobs make both passes? Does Cutler have the speed and accuracy for the drill? Who knows, they either didn't show or weren't invited.

Before watching on TiVO, I just saw VY do the drill. And he was smooth. And then I just thought it was kinda funny seeing the other guys struggle through it so much comparitively.

Nitpicker of the year award goes to the Sporting News, criticizing Young's management for letting him do this event (BTW, his synopsis of how Young did in the event is not what my eyes say, but we are only human):

"Young's handlers aren't handling their business"
(http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=60333)

"There is too much riding on Young's future -- he wants to play for his hometown Texans, who would have to give up on former No. 1 overall pick David Carr to pull the trigger on Young -- to noodle around in Miami for a measly appearance fee. His management team had better tighten up and get a grip on what's best for its client.

Young says he will work out at the NFL Scouting Combine but won't lift or run. He'll follow the same plan at his pro day in late March in Austin. The goal, he says, is to focus on throwing and eliminate any doubt about his funky mechanics or accuracy.

I have no doubt about Young's ability to throw. His ability to choose a competent management team is another story. "


Personally, I wonder about VY's management as well. When the other QBs have experienced agents lobbying for their guys (and kinda against the other guys), it can affect draft stuff.

If you are bored, the comments section after the article are interesting too.

MorKnolle
02-09-2006, 12:05 AM
Hello??! Did I say anything about "clear" evidence or the made for TV thingy meaning anything?? If anything, my earlier posts were pretty ambivalent about that. :cool: This thread was started just because I thought people would be interested in this event and at least it was entertaining to me to watch. The draft ain't until April, we still have to wait for the combine and workouts, so there ain't much going on.

You didn't but others on the board have suggested it, so I was just throwing that out there before your comments were taken the wrong way. Did not mean to target or offend you by it.

BlueThunder
02-09-2006, 12:09 AM
VY:redtowel: