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Sam_24
01-30-2006, 06:58 PM
Is David Carr really all that bad? Rumors all over Denver is that Gary Kubiak might elect to take quarterback Jake Plummer with him to Texas. Being that Jake already knows Gary's offense so well he could start for a year or two while Vince Young or Matt Leinart are being groomed.
Jake has grown up alot in Denver, he has alot to offer but I think Shanahan might elect to go in another direction other than that of the snake.
David Carr in my mind is not bad at all but unlike Jake he doesnt know Garys offense at all, being that Mcnair wants to win now. Gary might want someone whos know his style of play while he prepares a younger talented QB.

Texans>Colts
01-30-2006, 07:03 PM
David Carr isn't bad. If he had an o-line he would b good. He gets way 2 much preasure on him and not a lot of time 2 throw. Mayb if we sign plummer we can trade him 2 the cheifs 4 some people since Trent Green is getting old. :rolleyes: He would do great in KC with their o-line i bet.

GO TEXANS!!!!!! :gotexans1 :wherewill :fans:

TEXANS84
01-30-2006, 07:03 PM
Taking Jake with in my opinion would be suicide. With a lack of production at offensive line, you need a scrambling quarterback. Jake does not fit that mold whatsoever.
I'd rather test my water with Carr.

Mr. White
01-30-2006, 07:05 PM
I don't see this happening. Any source for the flying rumors? BTW, anyone else remember the last time a QB named "Snake" came to Houston?

BREAZE
01-30-2006, 07:16 PM
The better question would be "Is the o-line that bad?".

If Jake came to Houston the Colorado hippies would have nobody to root for...not going to happen.

Kaiser Toro
01-30-2006, 07:20 PM
Don't believe the hype about the hype.

Overalls
01-30-2006, 07:25 PM
Houston sports has already had its ties to a snake, Stabler that is.

edo783
01-30-2006, 07:37 PM
Just another thinly disguised how to draft VY proposal.

jerek
01-30-2006, 07:46 PM
Welcome to the board, you should fit in just fine here. Generally, there are three camps regarding David Carr:

(1) David Carr sucks, and I do mean, sucks like no one else. He is quite possibly the worst quarterback in the league, and we have his pretty boy looks, his "homer" fans, and his complete and total lack of anything resembling skill to blame for this 2-14 record. Vince Young takes a dump and his teammates are inspired, rally around it, and subsequently will go the playoffs.

(2) David Carr is the man. The guy has never made an honest mistake in his life: it's either his O-line, playcalling, coaching, receivers, or quite possibly the fact that he cut his hair that's to blame for anything and everything you thought he did wrong. Football's a team game, and it's the team that sucks.

(3) David who? Reggie Bush is an automatic touchdown everytime he looks at the ball. Draft him, problems solved.

That is pretty much it, with only slight variation to the theme :) As I say, welcome aboard.

Wharton
01-30-2006, 08:29 PM
I am pretty much in camp no. 1, but the only thing worse then DC would be Jake. I'll have to admit that due to some hard work by Kubes and Shanny, Jake is looking alot better then he did with the Cardinals. But, when the pressure was on, NFC Championship, the old Jake resurfaced.

Another post asked if our O-line was really that bad, and I would have to say yes again. They are pretty good against the run, but pass blocking is almost non-existant. If you thought Jake looked bad in the NFC Championship game, wait until he sets up behind our line.

thegr8fan
01-30-2006, 08:38 PM
Unfortunately the 'love my Carr' members of this board are able to see how the O-line is the problem, but when you try and break down the problems on the team and include Carr within those problems, they start screaming 'its a team game'. I don't quite get how its a team game when you critique the QB, but its an O-line problem, and not a team game, when you don't.

ALL the problems in this team were not directly related to Carr. But he was a major contributor to the offensive problems, IMHO. So was the O-line, IMHO.

Carr will be the QB, McNair has guaranteed that practically. Kubiak will just have to get used to the idea that for at least one more year he will have to drive a hoopty, 4 flat tires, rusted paint, belongs in the scrap heap, Carr.

Fighting Blue Hen
01-30-2006, 08:48 PM
Just another thinly disguised how to draft VY proposal.

LOL... Are you having VY nightmares or something?

Hardcore Texan
01-30-2006, 08:53 PM
I don't think Carr is that bad at all, I have always thought he has alot of potential. I think he will be good QB under Kubes.

Basically, I trust Kubiak's evaluation of Carr as he has spent most of his life either being a QB or coaching a QB, he is way more qualified then anyone I know to evaluate Carr's potential.

All that being said, I think there are plenty of us that think Carr can be the QB of the future but still has to develope, un-learn some bad habits/decision making, and render to some quality coaching. Also simultaneously believing that there are just too many holes to fill on this team in one offseason, and YES one of them is the O-Line, another one being half of the defense especially if we are going to switch to a 4-3 (at least most of the time). That is the camp I am in!

aj.
01-30-2006, 08:54 PM
Taking Jake with in my opinion would be suicide. With a lack of production at offensive line, you need a scrambling quarterback. Jake does not fit that mold whatsoever.
I'd rather test my water with Carr.

If I could find that head scratch thingy, I'd put it here (x)

Jake doesn't fit the mold of a scrambling QB? What's next, Jake is a classic drop back-pocket passer?

D-ReK
01-30-2006, 08:58 PM
If I could find that head scratch thingy, I'd put it here (x)

I'll dedicate this smiley to you: :um:

axman40
01-30-2006, 09:00 PM
Maybe I am the only one who thinks this but IMHO Carr is becoming the Randall Tex Cobb of the NFL! I admire his abilityto take a lot of punishment but watching him perform on the field of play sure is ugly at times!

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Studio/8290/bendover.html

OK FLAME ON !

:stirpot:

vtech9
01-30-2006, 09:20 PM
Taking Jake with in my opinion would be suicide. With a lack of production at offensive line, you need a scrambling quarterback. Jake does not fit that mold whatsoever.
I'd rather test my water with Carr.
why do you think he was nicknamed "snake"?? It was for his scrambling/escapeability.

Texans_Chick
01-30-2006, 09:26 PM
Welcome to the board, you should fit in just fine here. Generally, there are three camps regarding David Carr:

(1) David Carr sucks, and I do mean, sucks like no one else. He is quite possibly the worst quarterback in the league, and we have his pretty boy looks, his "homer" fans, and his complete and total lack of anything resembling skill to blame for this 2-14 record. Vince Young takes a dump and his teammates are inspired, rally around it, and subsequently will go the playoffs.

(2) David Carr is the man. The guy has never made an honest mistake in his life: it's either his O-line, playcalling, coaching, receivers, or quite possibly the fact that he cut his hair that's to blame for anything and everything you thought he did wrong. Football's a team game, and it's the team that sucks.

(3) David who? Reggie Bush is an automatic touchdown everytime he looks at the ball. Draft him, problems solved.

That is pretty much it, with only slight variation to the theme :) As I say, welcome aboard.


Actually, I think a lot of people are at (4) We don't if David Carr is the man or sucks. Because we see some good things and some bad things, but with all the excuses in list in (2), our QB position is Forrest Gump's box of chocolates. We don't know what David Carr we're gonna get.

Basically 2002 again, without the stored good will. :(

vtech9
01-30-2006, 09:40 PM
Actually, I think a lot of people are at (4) We don't if David Carr is the man or sucks. Because we see some good things and some bad things, but with all the excuses in list in (2), our QB position is Forrest Gump's box of chocolates. We don't know what David Carr we're gonna get.

Basically 2002 again, without the stored good will. :(
actually, that is closer to my thoughts than any of them but I also have a drastic lean towards #1. I have seen too many errors by Carr that shouldn't be made by a Rookie QB, much less a 4 year veteran, to have alot of faith in him. I always hope that he can turn his carreer around, but I have serious doubts.

Fighting Blue Hen
01-30-2006, 09:58 PM
Yes.

zeplin
01-30-2006, 10:31 PM
Just another thinly disguised how to draft VY proposal.


When I read this thread my first thought was "give me a break" Give it up for god sakes,
VY people.
:homer: He ain't comming here,

Napa Auto Parts
01-30-2006, 10:32 PM
While our O-line has been terrible no doubt about that but David has never done anything to help himself either tacking sacks running out of bounds for sacks locking to one read its a combination of two things. but hopefully if we are gonna be stuck with carr may be he can turn it around.:rolleyes:

Sam_24
01-30-2006, 10:58 PM
Just another thinly disguised how to draft VY proposal.
I dont know what your getting at. Im not even a Texans fan, Im moreless a David Carr fan, Ive watched him play since college and always figured that he had alot to offer.
Personally I think David Carr could excel in Kubiaks system, you all, well most of you seen what he did for Jake Plummer. Heck he even played a very big role in sending Brian Grease to the pro bowl.
Kub is a quarterback building master mind, you folks ought to be happy that David is there to play under Kub hes gonna do a great job in reforming him.
It could be worse, you could have Jake Plummer at QB and have your team and most of their fans try to convince you that Jake is something special when its clearly the way the team is designed to hide his faults.
Please take Jake we'll give him to you lol!

Double Barrel
01-30-2006, 11:03 PM
Actually, I think a lot of people are at (4) We don't if David Carr is the man or sucks. Because we see some good things and some bad things, but with all the excuses in list in (2), our QB position is Forrest Gump's box of chocolates. We don't know what David Carr we're gonna get.


I call the fourth group the "Trent Dilfer camp". Meaning that we know DC has more raw ability than Trent Dilfer, and Dilfer has a Superbowl ring. Simply put, Carr might not carry the team on his shoulders, but he can be an adequate field general if he has a good team around him (and, of course, a good defense). But he won't lose the game for you, either, like certain weak QBs of seasons past.

Sam_24
01-30-2006, 11:10 PM
Actually, I think a lot of people are at (4) We don't if David Carr is the man or sucks. Because we see some good things and some bad things, but with all the excuses in list in (2), our QB position is Forrest Gump's box of chocolates. We don't know what David Carr we're gonna get.

Basically 2002 again, without the stored good will. :(
Wow thats the best way I heard it put! Thats exaclty how we feel about Jake Plummer in Denver!

vtech9
01-30-2006, 11:22 PM
I call the fourth group the "Trent Dilfer camp". Meaning that we know DC has more raw ability than Trent Dilfer, and Dilfer has a Superbowl ring. Simply put, Carr might not carry the team on his shoulders, but he can be an adequate field general if he has a good team around him (and, of course, a good defense). But he won't lose the game for you, either, like certain weak QBs of seasons past.
your 4th group doesn't fit with what Texans_chick was saying. She was basically saying that the 4th group really doesn't know how to classify Carr yet. She didn't say anything about Carr being "an adequate field general if he has a good team around him". Nor was she saying that "he won't lose the game for you". All she was saying is that the 4th group really can't tell if Carr is going to be a bust or a star.

Double Barrel
01-30-2006, 11:29 PM
your 4th group doesn't fit with what Texans_chick was saying. She was basically saying that the 4th group really doesn't know how to classify Carr yet. She didn't say anything about Carr being "an adequate field general if he has a good team around him". Nor was she saying that "he won't lose the game for you". All she was saying is that the 4th group really can't tell if Carr is going to be a bust or a star.

Then let's say there are now FIVE groups. :D (I clumped us together because these are moderate takes, meaning we don't hate the guy, but we don't blindly support him, either. Like Texans Chick said, "Because we see some good things and some bad things") I was joking around anyway, and forgot to disclaimer it with a " ;) ".

I honestly don't know what to think about Carr at this point. I'm indifferent. If he's here, I'll root for him and hope he pulls through. But if they let him go or trade him, I'm apathetic and will root for whoever they put in his place. Basically I have no emotional ties to the dude.

thegr8fan
01-30-2006, 11:39 PM
You will be the first one to eat your words, I will make sure of that.considering that I have been right for the last 25 games or so, (Nov 2004) I hope you'll excuse me if I don't lose any sleep over such a juvenile thought. :ok:

But just so you can sleep better at night, I would gladly eat those words. Just as soon as Carr actually does something on the field that looks like an NFL starting QB and not a high school homecoming QB.

Patting the heck out of my own back, but no eating involved. :stirpot:

Texans_Chick
01-30-2006, 11:42 PM
your 4th group doesn't fit with what Texans_chick was saying. She was basically saying that the 4th group really doesn't know how to classify Carr yet. She didn't say anything about Carr being "an adequate field general if he has a good team around him". Nor was she saying that "he won't lose the game for you". All she was saying is that the 4th group really can't tell if Carr is going to be a bust or a star.

Yeah, that is what I was saying. Maybe Double Barrel's Trent Dilfer category would be number 5.

So under the revised David Carr Stud or Dud Scale (DCSDS), this is what you got:

1. David Carr is a stud on a bad team with a bad system.

2. David Carr is Trent Dilfer, adequate NFL QB who can manage a game and with talent and coaching around him, can go to the Superbowl.

3. David Carr is the Forrest Gump box of chocolates--you don't know what you're gonna get.

4. It doesn't matter what David Carr is, because Reggie Bush is the shizzle and will score every time he touches the ball.

5. David Carr sucks.



So, from now on, all Carr love/hate thread can merely be reduced to numbers.

New poster can say, "5! 5! And bad play on words with Carr's name."

And poster from Fresno can say "Oh yeah, well 1 and as a backup position 4. And VY is the poor man's Vick and various other unreasonable silly things."

And then voice of reason might say "3, but with some coaching and better players around him maybe 2."


:redtowel:

Mr. White
01-30-2006, 11:42 PM
This is a damn funny thread...LMAO

vtech9
01-30-2006, 11:46 PM
Then let's say there are now FIVE groups. :D (I clumped us together because these are moderate takes, meaning we don't hate the guy, but we don't blindly support him, either. Like Texans Chick said, "Because we see some good things and some bad things") I was joking around anyway, and forgot to disclaimer it with a " ;) ".

I honestly don't know what to think about Carr at this point. I'm indifferent. If he's here, I'll root for him and hope he pulls through. But if they let him go or trade him, I'm apathetic and will root for whoever they put in his place. Basically I have no emotional ties to the dude.
I feel ya DB...Like you, I can take him or leave him at this point.

I was all for getting Carr with the 1st ever pick. I knew he had a few problems, like locking on to his WR's, but I knew he had the arm and was hoping that coaching could fix his flaws.

After 4 years, as much as I would like to see Carr succeed, I just have a hard time believing that he can turn it around. I mean, how long do you give him?

If we keep him, it's almost like he is a rookie again, without, like Texans_chick said, the stored good will. He will basically be starting over. If he does turn it around, it won't be in the very first year, it will be more like it was with Plummer, a slow progression.

By the time Carr does get it turned around, if he does, he will be starting his 7th or 8th year, and looking for a new contract.

The jury is still out if he can turn it around. I have my doubts.

jerek
01-31-2006, 12:10 AM
Then let's say there are now FIVE groups. :D (I clumped us together because these are moderate takes, meaning we don't hate the guy, but we don't blindly support him, either. Like Texans Chick said, "Because we see some good things and some bad things") I was joking around anyway, and forgot to disclaimer it with a " ;) ".

I honestly don't know what to think about Carr at this point. I'm indifferent. If he's here, I'll root for him and hope he pulls through. But if they let him go or trade him, I'm apathetic and will root for whoever they put in his place. Basically I have no emotional ties to the dude.

I am actually a part of #5, and my generalization was meant to be humorous. I tend to think Carr is a good QB who hasn't demonstrated his true potential, while for the most part he hasn't been given the chance to. I say, give Kubiak two years, and if Carr isn't an upper echelon QB by then, then dealing him might be a good option. Then again, teams have won Super Bowls without upper echelon QB's, and this of course does nothing to satiate the Vince-or-die crowd on this board.

That's my take.

phan1
01-31-2006, 12:57 AM
I think if he was that bad, he wouldn't have unquestionably been the starter every single weel he's been in the NFL.

Nighthawk
01-31-2006, 01:13 AM
Yeah, that is what I was saying. Maybe Double Barrel's Trent Dilfer category would be number 5.

So under the revised David Carr Stud or Dud Scale (DCSDS), this is what you got:

1. David Carr is a stud on a bad team with a bad system.

2. David Carr is Trent Dilfer, adequate NFL QB who can manage a game and with talent and coaching around him, can go to the Superbowl.

3. David Carr is the Forrest Gump box of chocolates--you don't know what you're gonna get.

4. It doesn't matter what David Carr is, because Reggie Bush is the shizzle and will score every time he touches the ball.

5. David Carr sucks.



So, from now on, all Carr love/hate thread can merely be reduced to numbers.

New poster can say, "5! 5! And bad play on words with Carr's name."

And poster from Fresno can say "Oh yeah, well 1 and as a backup position 4. And VY is the poor man's Vick and various other unreasonable silly things."

And then voice of reason might say "3, but with some coaching and better players around him maybe 2."


:redtowel:

do a poll! hurry!

Texans_Chick
01-31-2006, 09:06 AM
do a poll! hurry!


Nah, no poll. I was just making a funny. Besides I am not even sure that I know how to do a poll. :cool:

That being said, I'm not sure the MB needs another venue for expressing one's thoughts on DC. But if you want to, go ahead.

:texflag:

kbourda
01-31-2006, 11:13 AM
I think if he was that bad, he wouldn't have unquestionably been the starter every single weel he's been in the NFL.

What? That was a joke right? He was handed the position by coaches who are no longer here. As much as I really don't care for his qb style, I hope Carr can be successful here. I hope and pray he proves me and alot of naysayers wrong.

Kaiser Toro
01-31-2006, 11:15 AM
What? That was a joke right? He was handed the position by coaches who are no longer here. As much as I really don't care for his qb style, I hope Carr can be successful here. I hope and pray he proves me and alot of naysayers wrong.

And the naysayers would love more than anything to be proved wrong as well.

kbourda
01-31-2006, 11:23 AM
And the naysayers would love more than anything to be proved wrong as well.

What?

Kaiser Toro
01-31-2006, 11:37 AM
What?

I was not sure if you were a Carr naysayer as well, so I spoke for the naysayer nation without really having any mandate to do so. :)

kbourda
01-31-2006, 11:43 AM
I was not sure if you were a Carr naysayer as well, so I spoke for the naysayer nation without really having any mandate to do so. :)

Well, i'm very much a Carr naysayer but like I said i'll be willing to give him a look see.

infantrycak
01-31-2006, 09:44 PM
when tony banks was in the 49ers game he did not get sacked once!!!!:confused:

And neither did Carr. Wow, drawing a conclusion from that evidence is confusing.

HOOK'EM
01-31-2006, 10:41 PM
:redtowel: Carr will soon enough lead the TEXANS deep into the playoffs, then every one will be "I told you so"!

Koolbrz
01-31-2006, 11:04 PM
:redtowel: Carr will soon enough lead the TEXANS deep into the playoffs, then every one will be "I told you so"!


Whats with all these people saying Carr is a bad QB. The poor guy has honestly not had a real opportunity to show what he can do. He not only has had the worst O-Line in the league, but he in all reality has no one to throw the ball too other than AJ. Its no excuse its just a fact. Peyton Manning would not be able to run the offense that we had this past season. Dang, everyone is on this VY trip, I believe if he would have stunk up the Rose Bowl everyone would be pulling for him to stay at UT in order to get more exp. and to develope that avg. arm of his. He outgained Bush in yrds. i know, but he faced what the 39th ranked defense in the nation. In LIMITED PLAYING TIME Bush had 177 combined yrds and a touchdown against the 2nd ranked defense in the nation. Go figure

Runner
02-01-2006, 12:12 AM
And neither did Carr. Wow, drawing a conclusion from that evidence is confusing.


Damn those facts! :shocked

Big B Texan Fan
02-01-2006, 12:25 AM
Whats with all these people saying Carr is a bad QB. The poor guy has honestly not had a real opportunity to show what he can do. He not only has had the worst O-Line in the league, but he in all reality has no one to throw the ball too other than AJ. Its no excuse its just a fact.
The fact is he has had 4 years to show signs of improvement. Not in the W-L column but in the decision making coloumn.

Is the O-line that bad, really? Or does he make them look that bad. How is it that 5 guys and all their backups can runblock like horses but all those guys collectively can't pass block worth a lick. You would almost have to plan that. The 1st O-ine sure was horrible but this years wasn't yet they are getting alot the blame for the 68 sax. That's crap considering that the 1st ever O-line we had gave up 76 sax. They are not that bad. Carr and his decision making is bad, Great QB skills, Bad QB mind. Yet the staff seems deadset on keeping him around 3 more years.

If you or me anyone else had that kind of boss, then we would walk in his office and piss in the corner cuz we knew that nothing would happen to us. Imagine a new company offers you a job as sales manager from a sales position with a different company (smaller) from, hmmm let's say Fresno CA.

OK year 1 expectations low but 1st week on the job you land a big client (beat Dallas). The rest of the year goes as planned and your new boss is happy but expects to see more. 4-12

OK year 2 you make another splash on the scene in your first week (beat Miami in Miami) but the rest of the year goes as planned on the under side of "as planned". Not to mention you missed most of the middle part of the year due to injury and your asst sales mng (Banks) held down the fort awfully well and actually landed a new client (beat Panthers, eventual SB team later on that year) and almost landed another (SB winning Pats had to take us to OT in order to win). You had a courageous effort coming back to work early and landing a big client (Falcons, with a just as injured as Carr was Vick) but only pulled 1 or 2 more clients by years end. 5-11

OK season 3 and you are making remarkable progress, you actually get enough money to get a haircut (back to back wins finnally thanx in large part to Colemen, the loser). The year is going as planned and you project to your boss that you might make qouta, break even (the possibilty of going .500). Yet you finish with falling short once again and you work mates (fans) are getting fed up (booing you when you come back on the field after an injury that sends Banks back to the bench). Sason a failure 7-9

OK season 4, after demanding that your other bosses change things up for you you fall flat on your face actually doing collectively worse than you did in your 1st year as sales manager. Echoes thru the halls and cubicles are that maybe the big office, big job, big pay, big city, etc are too much and are not cut out for it. But one of the guys that hired you say that it isn't your fault and fires one of your workmates in an attempt to help you get better but you still get worse an worse. The abilityis there, but it seems as the heart isn't, it seems that you are comfy with the base salary and that the bonus $$ is just extra but not needed. Season a failure, 2-14

In the real world, contract or not, we'd be canned in a minute, on the mere fact that we would keep breeding that losing attitude if we were to stick around. Heck some of us would get the call to just not show back up and our things will be mailed to us.

This is just a lame reason for the team to not look like they made a bad decision. It's gonna take a while to become a playoff team, is McNair gonna re-up his contract after the 3 yr option is up to the tune of 5 year 80 mill if still don't have a playoff appearance? If so then we've got issues, if not the who's the QB, can we have Henson back (J/K)

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 12:35 AM
Whats with all these people saying Carr is a bad QB. The poor guy has honestly not had a real opportunity to show what he can do. He not only has had the worst O-Line in the league, but he in all reality has no one to throw the ball too other than AJ. Its no excuse its just a fact. Peyton Manning would not be able to run the offense that we had this past season. Dang, everyone is on this VY trip, I believe if he would have stunk up the Rose Bowl everyone would be pulling for him to stay at UT in order to get more exp. and to develope that avg. arm of his. He outgained Bush in yrds. i know, but he faced what the 39th ranked defense in the nation. In LIMITED PLAYING TIME Bush had 177 combined yrds and a touchdown against the 2nd ranked defense in the nation. Go figure

Vince had over 200 yards rushing, and over 200 yards passing..... yeah, that's pretty good. 3000 yards passing, 1000 yards rushing for the season, including the A&M game.... not bad. the guy is talented. Those season numbers show you it wasn't just one game.


4 years into the league, and we still don't know about David Carr..... it's not his fault,,,, blah,blah, blah......... $8million dollars for one year is a lot of money.... is he worth it?? I don't know.......... you don't know..

I think the Fairest thing we can do for Carr, is to pick up his 2 year extension. Give him a fair opportunity to get his stock up. If he can do it, fine... if he looks like he can take us to the superbowl, we keep him. But we take Young with the #1 and sit him behind Carr for two years. deal Ragone, and keep Banks for a measely $1mill. Give Carr the the opportunity to win 4 out of the first 8 games of 2006. If he can't do it(teams fault, coaching, injury, whatever) we send Vince in. If he get's us 4 of the first eight wins, he gets to start the rest of the year.

If he really is all that & a bag of Chips, he'll start 2007...... if he gets us into the playoffs in 2007, we start working on the VinceYoung trade papers.

I know this doesn't make business since to alot of you........ all you've seen is the 2005 RoseBowl, and the UT vs A&M game..... But the guy is talented. There hasn't been a QB like him @ the college level. Think Rothlesberger, Think McNabb, think Culpepper, if you think those guys are busts.... then you're right, chances are good, that Vince's talent won't amount to much in the NFL. But if you agree those are good NFL passing QBs who add an Xfactor to their offense because of their mobility, and playmaking ability, then you'd have to agree the guy is worth the #1 pick. before you 'reply' too quick, note that I said he is worth the #1 pick, not that he will be as good or better than those guys. I also didn't mention where he is from, he's a talented MOFo, I don't care where he is from. It doesn't matter to me, but I think it is Awesome, that he wants to come here to play.

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 12:41 AM
The fact is he has had 4 years to show signs of improvement. Not in the W-L column but in the decision making coloumn.

Is the O-line that bad, really? Or does he make them look that bad. How is it that 5 guys and all their backups can runblock like horses but all those guys collectively can't pass block worth a lick. You would almost have to plan that. The 1st O-ine sure was horrible but this years wasn't yet they are getting alot the blame for the 68 sax. That's crap considering that the 1st ever O-line we had gave up 76 sax. They are not that bad. Carr and his decision making is bad, Great QB skills, Bad QB mind. Yet the staff seems deadset on keeping him around 3 more years.
(J/K)

Not only that, but if "Carr is holding the reins" as in the 1st half of the StLouis Game, The O-line does an excellent job........ we set a franchise record for most points in a half....... but 2nd half..... they've got ADD or something and don't know how to block??

I still haven't figured that one out. It shouldn't matter who is calling the plays, either they can block, or they can't.

Aaaannnnnnnd.......... Casserly still has his job, so that tells me it can't be a question of talent. Reeves didn't come to evaluate Carr only.... but the talent level of the the whole team. Casserly was to keep his job, if Reeves thought he had done a good job evaluating players. If not, he's supposed to be gone. that's not the case, so we've got talent.

infantrycak
02-01-2006, 12:42 AM
and how long was carr in the game
:hmmm: (oh my god is CONFUSING)

Ooh, you got me there. Banks came into the game with 11 seconds left in the 1st half to take a knee. You're right, that is a gross disparity.

How about this--in 2003 Banks played 2 full games and parts of 4 others. Carr played in 9 full games and parts of 2 others. Banks was sacked 13 times vs. Carr sacked 15 times. Yeah Banks is just a sack avoiding machine.

cadahnic
02-01-2006, 12:54 AM
I am just going to answer the question. No, Carr is not bad at all. No excuses, No rhetoric of homer-esque explanations about a line, his lack of judgement or anything of the sort. Bottomline and that is he is not a bad QB never has been...Period.

michaelm
02-01-2006, 01:17 AM
Welcome to the board, you should fit in just fine here.

Why does this not sound like a compliment...?!? lol

michaelm
02-01-2006, 01:26 AM
I was not sure if you were a Carr naysayer as well, so I spoke for the naysayer nation without really having any mandate to do so. :)


Dude...
come on, tell the truth...
you just like saying naysayer, don't you...?

That's ok, I like Tenacious D too!

"you're always ****ing naysaying!" LOL

Kaiser Toro
02-01-2006, 09:05 AM
Dude...
come on, tell the truth...
you just like saying naysayer, don't you...?

That's ok, I like Tenacious D too!

"you're always ****ing naysaying!" LOL

I like to say naysayer and a fan of the D. Saw them in Australia December 2004 with the Wilson Brothers. Pretty cool night.

Back on topic, Carr is not as good as his current contract and pending extension.

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 09:11 AM
Reggie bush is great too, but he won't handle the ball each down. so, he won't make an overall difference. once again, that is just an opinion.

Okay, so we should only draft Centers and QBs!!!! They are the only two players who touch the ball on each down, so they are the only one's who can make a difference. :rofl:

I couldn't resist! :redtowel:

jerek
02-01-2006, 10:20 AM
The fact is he has had 4 years to show signs of improvement. Not in the W-L column but in the decision making coloumn.

Is the O-line that bad, really? Or does he make them look that bad. How is it that 5 guys and all their backups can runblock like horses but all those guys collectively can't pass block worth a lick. You would almost have to plan that. The 1st O-ine sure was horrible but this years wasn't yet they are getting alot the blame for the 68 sax. That's crap considering that the 1st ever O-line we had gave up 76 sax. They are not that bad. Carr and his decision making is bad, Great QB skills, Bad QB mind. Yet the staff seems deadset on keeping him around 3 more years.

If you or me anyone else had that kind of boss, then we would walk in his office and piss in the corner cuz we knew that nothing would happen to us. Imagine a new company offers you a job as sales manager from a sales position with a different company (smaller) from, hmmm let's say Fresno CA.

OK year 1 expectations low but 1st week on the job you land a big client (beat Dallas). The rest of the year goes as planned and your new boss is happy but expects to see more. 4-12

OK year 2 you make another splash on the scene in your first week (beat Miami in Miami) but the rest of the year goes as planned on the under side of "as planned". Not to mention you missed most of the middle part of the year due to injury and your asst sales mng (Banks) held down the fort awfully well and actually landed a new client (beat Panthers, eventual SB team later on that year) and almost landed another (SB winning Pats had to take us to OT in order to win). You had a courageous effort coming back to work early and landing a big client (Falcons, with a just as injured as Carr was Vick) but only pulled 1 or 2 more clients by years end. 5-11

OK season 3 and you are making remarkable progress, you actually get enough money to get a haircut (back to back wins finnally thanx in large part to Colemen, the loser). The year is going as planned and you project to your boss that you might make qouta, break even (the possibilty of going .500). Yet you finish with falling short once again and you work mates (fans) are getting fed up (booing you when you come back on the field after an injury that sends Banks back to the bench). Sason a failure 7-9

OK season 4, after demanding that your other bosses change things up for you you fall flat on your face actually doing collectively worse than you did in your 1st year as sales manager. Echoes thru the halls and cubicles are that maybe the big office, big job, big pay, big city, etc are too much and are not cut out for it. But one of the guys that hired you say that it isn't your fault and fires one of your workmates in an attempt to help you get better but you still get worse an worse. The abilityis there, but it seems as the heart isn't, it seems that you are comfy with the base salary and that the bonus $$ is just extra but not needed. Season a failure, 2-14

In the real world, contract or not, we'd be canned in a minute, on the mere fact that we would keep breeding that losing attitude if we were to stick around. Heck some of us would get the call to just not show back up and our things will be mailed to us.

This is just a lame reason for the team to not look like they made a bad decision. It's gonna take a while to become a playoff team, is McNair gonna re-up his contract after the 3 yr option is up to the tune of 5 year 80 mill if still don't have a playoff appearance? If so then we've got issues, if not the who's the QB, can we have Henson back (J/K)

For the one thousandth time, there is a substantial difference between run blocking and pass blocking:

(1) Push forward vs. drop backward
(2) RB finds a hole and is gone (~1 sec) vs. block until ball is let go of (>1 sec)

Your highly speculative and vaguely analogous "enlightened" business model aside - which I will not analyze further lest I be kicked off the board - I could construct a counter version of the tale that would place the majority (note I use: majority, not "all") of the blame exactly where it belongs: bad management (leadership), inept IT/office services (don't give you the tools you need to succeed), budget cuts, etc. etc. etc. I could construct a very compelling scenario but it would be a waste of my time since the story doesn't end with "draft Vince Young."

And wtf is this ("This is just a lame reason for the team to not look like they made a bad decision") ... honestly? With all of you UT folk screaming for blood if we don't draft Vince ... if McNair and Co. were convinced that Carr was a mistake, wouldn't this be the absolute best time to phase him out, draft Young instead? ... Cave to the Vince Young fanset and say, look at us, we want to bring a championship to Houston, we're here for the fans, bla bla bla bla bla? Are you telling me that McNair made his multi millions selling **** nobody wanted? Study that aspect of Business in marketing 101?

Or is McNair honestly convinced that winning will put fans in the seats, and accordingly, he is honestly convinced that Carr is going to be the QB that will help bring us there?

bigTEXan8
02-01-2006, 10:40 AM
For the one thousandth time, there is a substantial difference between run blocking and pass blocking:

(1) Push forward vs. drop backward
(2) RB finds a hole and is gone (~1 sec) vs. block until ball is let go of (>1 sec)

Your highly speculative and vaguely analogous "enlightened" business model aside - which I will not analyze further lest I be kicked off the board - I could construct a counter version of the tale that would place the majority (note I use: majority, not "all") of the blame exactly where it belongs: bad management (leadership), inept IT/office services (don't give you the tools you need to succeed), budget cuts, etc. etc. etc. I could construct a very compelling scenario but it would be a waste of my time since the story doesn't end with "draft Vince Young."

And wtf is this ("This is just a lame reason for the team to not look like they made a bad decision") ... honestly? With all of you UT folk screaming for blood if we don't draft Vince ... if McNair and Co. were convinced that Carr was a mistake, wouldn't this be the absolute best time to phase him out, draft Young instead? ... Cave to the Vince Young fanset and say, look at us, we want to bring a championship to Houston, we're here for the fans, bla bla bla bla bla? Are you telling me that McNair made his multi millions selling **** nobody wanted? Study that aspect of Business in marketing 101?

Or is McNair honestly convinced that winning will put fans in the seats, and accordingly, he is honestly convinced that Carr is going to be the QB that will help bring us there?

YEAH!!! for jerek. I can't give you anymore props, but solid post. You speak the truth brotha!:yahoo:

MightyTExan
02-01-2006, 11:41 AM
Carr will be fine. Most Carr haters only focus on his negatives, which all QB's have. Does anyone have examples of anything he's done right? I've seen a lot through these past 4 years, and I think it outweighs the negatives. For example:2 50 TD passes in one game? I don't know about you, but that's firggin' awesome.

Koolbrz
02-01-2006, 08:58 PM
The fact is he has had 4 years to show signs of improvement. Not in the W-L column but in the decision making coloumn.

Is the O-line that bad, really? Or does he make them look that bad. How is it that 5 guys and all their backups can runblock like horses but all those guys collectively can't pass block worth a lick. You would almost have to plan that. The 1st O-ine sure was horrible but this years wasn't yet they are getting alot the blame for the 68 sax. That's crap considering that the 1st ever O-line we had gave up 76 sax. They are not that bad. Carr and his decision making is bad, Great QB skills, Bad QB mind. Yet the staff seems deadset on keeping him around 3 more years.

If you or me anyone else had that kind of boss, then we would walk in his office and piss in the corner cuz we knew that nothing would happen to us. Imagine a new company offers you a job as sales manager from a sales position with a different company (smaller) from, hmmm let's say Fresno CA.

OK year 1 expectations low but 1st week on the job you land a big client (beat Dallas). The rest of the year goes as planned and your new boss is happy but expects to see more. 4-12

OK year 2 you make another splash on the scene in your first week (beat Miami in Miami) but the rest of the year goes as planned on the under side of "as planned". Not to mention you missed most of the middle part of the year due to injury and your asst sales mng (Banks) held down the fort awfully well and actually landed a new client (beat Panthers, eventual SB team later on that year) and almost landed another (SB winning Pats had to take us to OT in order to win). You had a courageous effort coming back to work early and landing a big client (Falcons, with a just as injured as Carr was Vick) but only pulled 1 or 2 more clients by years end. 5-11

OK season 3 and you are making remarkable progress, you actually get enough money to get a haircut (back to back wins finnally thanx in large part to Colemen, the loser). The year is going as planned and you project to your boss that you might make qouta, break even (the possibilty of going .500). Yet you finish with falling short once again and you work mates (fans) are getting fed up (booing you when you come back on the field after an injury that sends Banks back to the bench). Sason a failure 7-9

OK season 4, after demanding that your other bosses change things up for you you fall flat on your face actually doing collectively worse than you did in your 1st year as sales manager. Echoes thru the halls and cubicles are that maybe the big office, big job, big pay, big city, etc are too much and are not cut out for it. But one of the guys that hired you say that it isn't your fault and fires one of your workmates in an attempt to help you get better but you still get worse an worse. The abilityis there, but it seems as the heart isn't, it seems that you are comfy with the base salary and that the bonus $$ is just extra but not needed. Season a failure, 2-14

In the real world, contract or not, we'd be canned in a minute, on the mere fact that we would keep breeding that losing attitude if we were to stick around. Heck some of us would get the call to just not show back up and our things will be mailed to us.

This is just a lame reason for the team to not look like they made a bad decision. It's gonna take a while to become a playoff team, is McNair gonna re-up his contract after the 3 yr option is up to the tune of 5 year 80 mill if still don't have a playoff appearance? If so then we've got issues, if not the who's the QB, can we have Henson back (J/K)


What games have you been watching this yr? Carr had what, maybe 2 1/2 seconds to do something with the ball almost all yr. That is until Reeves showed up. Funny how the line started to play. Pass blocking was horrible this yr. no matter what anyone says. The best line we had was last yr. i believe. Only had 48 sacks. Not bad considering it still was not a really great line. Look at things this way. Your on an assembly line were you have to pull a bottle from the line, look it over make sure it's not cracked, slap a label on it, and put it back all in 2 1/2 seconds. It's just not gonna happen. You know football, how do you expect a QB to get the snap, drop back make his 1st 2nd and maybe 3rd read in 2 1/2 seconds. Manning could not pull this off. Of course the guy is gonna be gun shy and want to get rid of the ball in a hurry, maybe even run with it ala VY. The things you are talking about can be fixed with better coaching, better line, and a better reciever to complement AJ. Look at who he had to throw the ball too. Gaffney, Bradford...please!! With the exception of AJ the other WR's are not that great. They couldn't catch the ball when needed, and the majority of the time Carr was runnning for his life. Everyone attacked there weakness this yr. and blitzed. Enough said

Big B Texan Fan
02-01-2006, 09:21 PM
koolbrz and bigtexan8 and jerek-

1st off jerek, i know that run blocking and pss blocking are 2 different thing, just funny how 5 guys and all their backups can only do one and not the other. Go back and read the post.

koolbrz and bigtexan8- you can quit the post-nuzzlin' of jerek when he comes up with a miraculous come back on me that he probably gets off the radio or reads in a magazine or something. Me and him have a bet going and the 2 of us are probably gonna duke it out until the 04/29 all the way up until the saints go on the clock.

Back to you jerek. If I owned a big business and had all the tools, limited they may be, in the business world but all the departments were iffy at best, I'd be looking for the leader of my team to at least make progress at least. If any decension were to take place then it had better be minimal. Very disimilar to what carr has shown.

TEXANFAN23435
02-01-2006, 09:54 PM
I'm sorry Big B Texan Fan but this David Carr bashing has got to be founded on all the stats, not just the stats that say his numbers went down this past season. Please help me out here, take the Top 6 QB's (Based on the QB Rating System) from the 2004 season and put them in Carr's place for the 2005 season and which of them would have improved on their QB Rating???

I mean it should be fairly easy to improve on your QB Rating..... when AJ misses enough games to contribute a total of 650+ receiving yards and a whopping 2TD's for the season. Then you have a MASH Unit as RB's with no one capable of staying healthy enough to reach a 1,000 yards rushing and by the way, exactly which one of our "running wounded", (STUD RB"s) would force any NFL Defense to respect our running game??? And, oh yes!!! Our awesome OL, who was so busy passing out "Sack Our QB Tickets" to opposing defenses that they plum forgot their blocking assignments. Oh, by the way, they managed to hand out a lot more tickets than just the 68 winners.

So Big B Texan Fan, find me a legitimate QB who would improve his QB rating over his 2004 season, playing in place of Carr for the 2005 season. Your answer and reasoning are much anticipated.

jerek
02-01-2006, 10:16 PM
koolbrz and bigtexan8 and jerek-

1st off jerek, i know that run blocking and pss blocking are 2 different thing, just funny how 5 guys and all their backups can only do one and not the other. Go back and read the post.

koolbrz and bigtexan8- you can quit the post-nuzzlin' of jerek when he comes up with a miraculous come back on me that he probably gets off the radio or reads in a magazine or something. Me and him have a bet going and the 2 of us are probably gonna duke it out until the 04/29 all the way up until the saints go on the clock.

Back to you jerek. If I owned a big business and had all the tools, limited they may be, in the business world but all the departments were iffy at best, I'd be looking for the leader of my team to at least make progress at least. If any decension were to take place then it had better be minimal. Very disimilar to what carr has shown.

The lowest of low shots! Now you are accusing me of plagarizing some dip**** on the radio or some magazine? Has it come to that? All of my comebacks are 100% homegrown.

Hope you plan on honoring that bet.

Big B Texan Fan
02-01-2006, 10:29 PM
Hope you plan on honoring that bet.
I'm already saving for it in case it comes that. Leading up to the draft we need to figure out a way to get one another paid.

Big B Texan Fan
02-01-2006, 11:14 PM
I'm sorry Big B Texan Fan but this David Carr bashing has got to be founded on all the stats, not just the stats that say his numbers went down this past season. Please help me out here, take the Top 6 QB's (Based on the QB Rating System) from the 2004 season and put them in Carr's place for the 2005 season and which of them would have improved on their QB Rating???

I mean it should be fairly easy to improve on your QB Rating..... when AJ misses enough games to contribute a total of 650+ receiving yards and a whopping 2TD's for the season. Then you have a MASH Unit as RB's with no one capable of staying healthy enough to reach a 1,000 yards rushing and by the way, exactly which one of our "running wounded", (STUD RB"s) would force any NFL Defense to respect our running game??? And, oh yes!!! Our awesome OL, who was so busy passing out "Sack Our QB Tickets" to opposing defenses that they plum forgot their blocking assignments. Oh, by the way, they managed to hand out a lot more tickets than just the 68 winners.

So Big B Texan Fan, find me a legitimate QB who would improve his QB rating over his 2004 season, playing in place of Carr for the 2005 season. Your answer and reasoning are much anticipated.
Do you watch the games or does your daddy read you a box score before he tucks you in t night.
I don't care too much for stats when my team is losing, I'm looking for a strong finish, a finish that would make the team, the city, and the owners proud to call themselves a part of the organization. Not some lame duck squandering in th last week of the season 2 seasons in a row. One season had the promise of not having a losing record yet we lost to one of the worst teams in the league and the next was the season that all we needed to do finish with a win and beat the team that had the #1 in last years draft and avoid the #1 pick ourselves.
Look, I've supported carr ever since he came and think he's a classy guy, with good christian values and would want either of my boys to grow to be like him, but when it comes to football and what I perceive as good football instincts, he's lacking. Not because he cannot play, just that I believe he cannot pull it off in this town, he's never gonna live up to the hype he was much less any other QB in the upcoming draft with the name Lienert, Cutler and Young. Forget the o-line and the injuries for a minute. The Pats keep plugging in guys (including Brady when Bledsoe went down) and they keep winning/stay in contention for a playoff spot every year the past 4 years although they fell a game or two short after their 1st SB win. His O-line guys were practically nobodies and they were the same guys that got Bledsoe murdered yet they were able to get Brady to a SB (or at least to a playoff game where the infamous "tuck rule" happened and kept that SB win a possibility). Is that coaching or is it the will to win with a leader who will guide his team to victory, even with his predeccessor on the bench watching. The following season Bledsoe was gone.
So I guess to answer you question, Brady is one.
Besides, most coaches that get a new team usually gets a new/different QB right away. The list is more than twice as long as the other as far coaches switching QB's ince the inception of free-agency and the salary cap.
Am I carr bashing, yes....
Do I want a change, yes....
Do I think carr can be successful elsewhere, yes.....
Do I like Bush or the thought of trading down, yes....
Would I rather have VY more than Bush or trade down, yes...
Does stats mean anything to me, yes.... (don't know why I added that)
I just don't want to see us keep a guy for the sake of not wanting to look bad and like we don't know what we're doing draft wise. IMHO that's what keeping carr will make me think and feel. Why stop at the coaches when it comes time to pass blame, the players on the field are the ones whoe either get it done or not.

Jack Bauer
02-01-2006, 11:16 PM
Do you watch the games or does your daddy read you a box score before he tucks you in t night.

I don't care too much for stats when my team is losing

Look who's behaving like a child...That is really uncalled for. Since stats don't matter when you lose, then you shouldn't care about our W/L record because it is a stat.

Goodnight. :goodnight

Big B Texan Fan
02-01-2006, 11:25 PM
Look who's behaving like a child...That is really uncalled for. Since stats don't matter when you lose, then you shouldn't care about our W/L record because it is a stat.

Goodnight. :goodnight
The W/L record is a RECORD
Stats are stats:
Main Entry: staˇtisˇtics
Pronunciation: st&-'tis-tiks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Etymology: German Statistik study of political facts and figures, from New Latin statisticus of politics, from Latin status state
1 : a branch of mathematics dealing with the collection, analysis, interpretation, and presentation of masses of numerical data
2 : a collection of quantitative data

Sorry but I had to go Websters on ya.

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 11:25 PM
What games have you been watching this yr? Carr had what, maybe 2 1/2 seconds to do something with the ball almost all yr. That is until Reeves showed up. Funny how the line started to play. Pass blocking was horrible this yr. no matter what anyone says.


So you think Carr must've said something at halftime to Peeve the O-line off again?? hmm.... wonder what he said to make all five guys not want to protect him........... their leader.

thunderkyss
02-01-2006, 11:44 PM
The Pats keep plugging in guys (including Brady when Bledsoe went down)....
......His O-line guys were practically nobodies and they were the same guys that got Bledsoe murdered yet they were able to get Brady to a SB (or at least to a playoff game where the infamous "tuck rule" happened and kept that SB win a possibility). Is that coaching or is it the will to win with a leader who will guide his team to victory, even with his predeccessor on the bench watching. The following season Bledsoe was gone.
So I guess to answer you question, Brady is one.


I thought Brunnel was a god in Jacksonville, but he couldn't stay on his feet either. Got hurt two games into the season(I think it had something to do with that "not being able to stay on his feet" problem) the Rookie who was too raw for the NFL came in and wooped ****....... so that's two.. And Leftwich's numbers aren't really better than Carr's, and their rushing offense only avg's 9 more yards per game.

so that's two.

Sam_24
02-02-2006, 12:14 AM
After reading all of your post and seeing that your O-line is really good in run blocking schemes. I really dont see Gary Kubiak making much changes there, he loves to run the ball even in the 3rd and long situations.
I think he'll more less convince Mcnair to let him trade away David Carr and bring in another vet QB along with draft VY.
Also I dont follow the Texans to much but it sounds like David isnt to durable, I think he'd be great in the right situation he just needs to relax and make better decisions. Im not saying that its his fault for being sacked so many times, maybe alot of has to do the O-line but if they are that good in run blocking, there arent gonna be to many changes there.

thegr8fan
02-02-2006, 12:34 AM
I mean it should be fairly easy to improve on your QB Rating..... when AJ misses enough games to contribute a total of 650+ receiving yards and a whopping 2TD's for the season. Then you have a MASH Unit as RB's with no one capable of staying healthy enough to reach a 1,000 yards rushing and by the way, exactly which one of our "running wounded", (STUD RB"s) would force any NFL Defense to respect our running game??? And, oh yes!!! Our awesome OL, who was so busy passing out "Sack Our QB Tickets" to opposing defenses that they plum forgot their blocking assignments. Oh, by the way, they managed to hand out a lot more tickets than just the 68 winners.
this post is hilarious in its ignorance. :ok:

yeah, must have been all those games AJ missed for the reason his numbers were down, couldn't have possibly had anything at all to do with Carr and his poor playing. All we gotta do to fix that is tape up AJ some more, figure out how to get him under center so he can both pass AND catch the ball more. :ok:

which one of our RB's would "force any NFL Defense to respect our running game", only every team we played. Yeah it is that awesome passing game that dictated 8 men in the box to protect against DD, who almost STILL got another 1000 yds this season.

As for our O-line, yeah they could have done better, and should have. But not all of the bad playing goes on them either, alot of it goes back to (ding, ding, ding) Carr and his lack of ability to read a defense and know when a blitz was coming so he could get the ball out.

But hey, keep blaming everything but the problem, Carr. I am sure when the entire team is changed, including the coach's, and Carr is still playing poorly we will try and maybe change the OWNER next, or something.

thegr8fan
02-02-2006, 12:42 AM
Also I dont follow the Texans to much but it sounds like David isnt to durable,even I, as much as I dislike Carr's lack of playing ability, have to say I am somewhat amazed by Carr's durability. He manages to get up time after time, and he deserves many props for that.

Durability is NOT one of his faults, but one of his strengths.

Jack Bauer
02-02-2006, 01:36 AM
The W/L record is a RECORD
Stats are stats:
Main Entry: sta·tis·tics
Pronunciation: st&-'tis-tiks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Etymology: German Statistik study of political facts and figures, from New Latin statisticus of politics, from Latin status state
1 : a branch of mathematics dealing with the collection, analysis, interpretation, and presentation of masses of numerical data
2 : a collection of quantitative data

Sorry but I had to go Websters on ya.

Collection of quantitative data. Do you know what quantitative means? One definition is relating to number. How many wins did the Texans have last year? 2. That is quantitative data. You also define a stat as the collection and analysis of numerical data. The Texans won 12.5% of their games this year. They did not win very many games. I have collected their win total versus their total number of games and analyzed the number. This is a stat. Do I need to go on???

cadahnic
02-02-2006, 05:46 AM
Wow this thread has become a childish patchwork of attacks and ignorant rhetoric. Guys just discuss the thread, insert your VY or Bush comments as you see fit and back them up with like Jack Bauer said Quantitative data. Like that word used it alot in financial management and advanced financial statistics class. BTW Jerek and Big B you guys need to settle down and J.S. if you win the bet I want a quarter to throw at someone.

michaelm
02-02-2006, 06:08 AM
Guys just discuss the thread, insert your VY or Bush comments as you see fit and back them up with like Jack Bauer said Quantitative data.

Actually, this thread started out as a David Carr thread, but as usual evloved into a RB/VY thread...

TEXANFAN23435
02-02-2006, 01:52 PM
Let's see, I'm really going to hate my self. Since several posters are so eager to turn each post into their "I want VY post".... Had the great (With no QB's his equal.) VY declared for last year's draft, how many of you VY homers would have demanded the Texans to rid themselves of DC in favor of drafting VY for the 2005 season??? :Tumblewee Heck, where is Jiminey Cricket when you need him.

What I'm most concearned about is the learning curve VY will have to endure in reading defensive pass coverages pulling out from under center. That is a totally different game and at this time I don't see any NFL team willing to adjust their offensive schemes to include Shotgun Formations 90% of the time. At the NFL level, VY is going to have to re-learn the QB position. Owners, GM's and HC's do not want to invest millions into a QB who relies more on his legs than his ability to read defenses ( maybe the NYJ will!!!). I make this statement based on MV's failure to improve his game or his teams ability to win. As soon as the MV novelty at the QB position wore off and NFL defenses decided to shadow him with a containment style defense his inability to read most defensive coverages became his glaring weakness. For the record, I will say MV will become an absolute bust as a QB if he doesn't start working on how to read defenses.

Now, if this truely is DC's weakness and he is solely responsible for the collapse of the Texans (Still can't figure out why they fired Capers, it's very appearant it wasn't CC or his fault.) then I say go ahead and trade him (I like this opinion best of all) to the Miami Dolphins for Ricky Williams and whatever pick they are willing to throw in. With our #1 pick, I take Matt Leinert, NOT VY, because ML has played in an NFL style offense, since we no longer have a QB we will need one that can start right away, he has played under center, can make all the throws, has pocket smarts, has escapabilty speed that is good for 5 to 10 yard runs when all else fails and has played a meaningful game against opposing teams who treated the game as their Bowl Game in every one of his starts!!! This guy's success as a QB in the NFL will happen even quicker than Carson Palmer's.

jim rome
02-02-2006, 04:16 PM
I am so tired of this conversation if someone with kubes stats says Carr is a good qb who the hell are you people to say he isnt what you know more about football than him. Yea thats why yall are ac techs and mechs and truck drivers and he is an nfl coach. sometimes you need to step back and let the people who know what their doing do the job, and not sit there and act like you could do better! If you were so good how many of these nfl teams with out a coach this offseason interviewed you?

infantrycak
02-02-2006, 04:22 PM
I am so tired of this conversation if someone with kubes stats says Carr is a good qb who the hell are you people to say he isnt what you know more about football than him. Yea thats why yall are ac techs and mechs and truck drivers and he is an nfl coach. sometimes you need to step back and let the people who know what their doing do the job, and not sit there and act like you could do better! If you were so good how many of these nfl teams with out a coach this offseason interviewed you?

There is something to the proposition that Reeves/Kubiack have better judgment than the average fan, but condescending to the entire MB is an unwise and ineffective way to get your point across.

ArlingtonTexan
02-02-2006, 04:39 PM
I am so tired of this conversation if someone with kubes stats says Carr is a good qb who the hell are you people to say he isnt what you know more about football than him. Yea thats why yall are ac techs and mechs and truck drivers and he is an nfl coach. sometimes you need to step back and let the people who know what their doing do the job, and not sit there and act like you could do better! If you were so good how many of these nfl teams with out a coach this offseason interviewed you?

If the real Jim rome made this statement, i would at least be comfortable that his tongue was some version of planted in his cheek. I have never done any of those jobs, but in the big scheme of things those guys; mechanics, AC techs, and truck drivers are a heck alot more important that any football coach to most of the planet.

jerek
02-02-2006, 04:45 PM
If the real Jim rome made this statement, i would at lest be comfortable that his tongue was some version of planted in his cheek. I have neve done any of those jobs, but in the bid scheme of things those guys mechanics, AC techs, and truck drivers are a heck alot more important that any football coach to most of the planet.

You think? :)

I too find it difficult to manuever this board at times, some of the threads make me laugh and others, I just shake my head in disbelief. But isn't discussion and opinion the point of the board?

Kaiser Toro
02-02-2006, 04:46 PM
Never underestimate the imagination of a Texan's fan. :)

ArlingtonTexan
02-02-2006, 04:53 PM
You think? :)

I too find it difficult to manuever this board at times, some of the threads make me laugh and others, I just shake my head in disbelief. But isn't discussion and opinion the point of the board?

Hey, its been a warm winter. I may be needing one of the AC techs who post here sooner than later idonno:

Koolbrz
02-02-2006, 11:22 PM
So you think Carr must've said something at halftime to Peeve the O-line off again?? hmm.... wonder what he said to make all five guys not want to protect him........... their leader.


Sorry guy, Carr did not have to say anything! The O-Line just plain out sux!! I don't care if you put Brady, Manning, or any of the top rated QB's in the league behind this line. THEY WILL NOT HAVE A PRODUCTIVE YR. What makes you think VY could play behind this line. His running ability? Guess what he will be another M. Vick, R. Cunningham, K. Stewart...etc...etc...etc... He can not throw the ball deep cause it looks like a wounded duck, and NFL defenses will put a beating on him. I just don't see anyone having much sucess behind this line.

Koolbrz
02-02-2006, 11:32 PM
:cool: koolbrz and bigtexan8 and jerek-

1st off jerek, i know that run blocking and pss blocking are 2 different thing, just funny how 5 guys and all their backups can only do one and not the other. Go back and read the post.

koolbrz and bigtexan8- you can quit the post-nuzzlin' of jerek when he comes up with a miraculous come back on me that he probably gets off the radio or reads in a magazine or something. Me and him have a bet going and the 2 of us are probably gonna duke it out until the 04/29 all the way up until the saints go on the clock.

Back to you jerek. If I owned a big business and had all the tools, limited they may be, in the business world but all the departments were iffy at best, I'd be looking for the leader of my team to at least make progress at least. If any decension were to take place then it had better be minimal. Very disimilar to what carr has shown.


Sorry Dude i'm not post-nuzzlin with anyone

thunderkyss
02-02-2006, 11:37 PM
Sorry guy, Carr did not have to say anything! The O-Line just plain out sux!! I don't care if you put Brady, Manning, or any of the top rated QB's in the league behind this line. THEY WILL NOT HAVE A PRODUCTIVE YR. What makes you think VY could play behind this line. His running ability? Guess what he will be another M. Vick, R. Cunningham, K. Stewart...etc...etc...etc... He can not throw the ball deep cause it looks like a wounded duck, and NFL defenses will put a beating on him. I just don't see anyone having much sucess behind this line.

Well see, my post was in response to someone saying that Carr had an excellent half, against the Rams.... scored 24 points.... my question, is what happened to them in the second half?? Why were they blocking for him the first half, but not the second??

Now, you're saying that Vince wouldn't be able to get to the sideline?? Whaa.... the thing that makes Vince different from David, is that once he gets out of the pocket, your chances are better, that he'll do something with the ball, other than take it out of bounds with him. Sure, David made some plays while on the move, but admit it... it's not his strong suit, and there are many times you wish he'd have just chunked it out of bounds. Say what you want, Vince can get it done from the pocket, and if he has to he's better outside the pocket, than David is.

How long does it take Carr to get to the sideline?? What are the odds that a reciever had gotten open in that time??

Koolbrz
02-02-2006, 11:47 PM
Well see, my post was in response to someone saying that Carr had an excellent half, against the Rams.... scored 24 points.... my question, is what happened to them in the second half?? Why were they blocking for him the first half, but not the second??

Now, you're saying that Vince wouldn't be able to get to the sideline?? Whaa.... the thing that makes Vince different from David, is that once he gets out of the pocket, your chances are better, that he'll do something with the ball, other than take it out of bounds with him. Sure, David made some plays while on the move, but admit it... it's not his strong suit, and there are many times you wish he'd have just chunked it out of bounds. Say what you want, Vince can get it done from the pocket, and if he has to he's better outside the pocket, than David is.

All i'm saying is that noone even VY could possibly play behind this line. You have to admit VY does need a lil work with his throwing. Not hating on the guy just a fact. There is no doubt in mind he is a great athlete as is MV. Tell me how many SB's has he won. They are the same type of player. We would be to predictable with VY at QB cause you would have to be in shotgun formation about 90% of the time in order to benefit from his abilities. He needs to learn how to read defense's and develope that arm. Lookin at 3-4 yrs before you can see what he might be able to really do. Honeymoon will be over by then and there will be many PO fans!

vtech9
02-02-2006, 11:52 PM
I am so tired of this conversation if someone with kubes stats says Carr is a good qb who the hell are you people to say he isnt what you know more about football than him. Yea thats why yall are ac techs and mechs and truck drivers and he is an nfl coach. sometimes you need to step back and let the people who know what their doing do the job, and not sit there and act like you could do better! If you were so good how many of these nfl teams with out a coach this offseason interviewed you?
Kubiak basically said what most of the Carr bashers on here have been saying for a long time. Kubiak stated that he thinks Carr can be successful in the NFL but that Carr needs alot of work. Most of us believe that Carr has the potential and the physical ability to be a successful NFL QB. Nobody is denying that, but he just hasn't shown that he has the mental capacity to be successful. He doesn't have very good pocket presence, and he doesn't make the best decisions. Some of you keep saying that he doesn't have any other WR's to throw it to. What good would it do to have another stud WR on the field if Carr never looks to them? Carr stares down his 1st option, so any other WR's on the field, no matter who they are, wouldn't make that much difference because if they weren't the 1st option, they probably wouldn't get looked at anyway.

Koolbrz
02-02-2006, 11:55 PM
Kubiak basically said what most of the Carr bashers on here have been saying for a long time. Kubiak stated that he thinks Carr can be successful in the NFL but that Carr needs alot of work. Most of us believe that Carr has the potential and the physical ability to be a successful NFL QB. Nobody is denying that, but he just hasn't shown that he has the mental capacity to be successful. He doesn't have very good pocket presence, and he doesn't make the best decisions. Some of you keep saying that he doesn't have any other WR's to throw it to. What good would it do to have another stud WR on the field if Carr never looks to them? Carr stares down his 1st option, so any other WR's on the field, no matter who they are, wouldn't make that much difference because if they weren't the 1st option, they probably wouldn't get looked at anyway.


Do you in all honesty believe he had the time to look at his 2nd and 3rd options this yr, and i do believe the coaching he was recieving was not all that great.

powerfuldragon
02-03-2006, 12:01 AM
yup. if i'd eaten as much well-manicured turf as carr had the last few years, there wouldn't even be a 2nd or 3rd option. snap and throw, no drop, no nothing.

jmerog
02-03-2006, 12:05 AM
If nothing else,he is certainly durable. He should get some kind of stud points for still playing,game after game, after the licking he has taken for four years.

vtech9
02-03-2006, 12:19 AM
Do you in all honesty believe he had the time to look at his 2nd and 3rd options this yr, and i do believe the coaching he was recieving was not all that great.
Yes, I do. If you knew anything about QB's you wouldn't have asked this question. In a 3-step drop, once that third step hits ground, the QB is supposed to fire the ball or look to his next option if his 1st option is covered. Carr would not do this. If Carr's 1st option was covered, he would hold the ball and stare at his 1st option until he got hit or panicked and ran.

If you have copies of any of the games, watch how Carr takes the snap and immediately focuses on his 1st option. Watch and you will see how he never takes his eyes off of him. As a QB, you just can't do that if you want to be successful. You can get away with it in high school, and you can sometimes get away with it in college. Carr did get away with it for the most part in college. He had more time in college to stare down his WR's and wait for someone to come open because of the talent of the teams he played against. I remember seeing this while watching him play in college, but I thought that NFL coaching could take care of that. I saw that Carr had the physical abilities to be a star QB in the NFL, and didn't care about his shortcomings because I believed our coaches could correct them. I was wrong. Carr has been in the league for 4 years and he still has the same problems.

Samer
02-03-2006, 12:58 AM
No he isnt that bad, no QB is good if they spend that much time on their behind, not even Peyton Manning, give the guy credit for not quitting and played through the harsh OLine

TreWardTxn
02-03-2006, 03:30 AM
All i'm saying is that noone even VY could possibly play behind this line. You have to admit VY does need a lil work with his throwing. Not hating on the guy just a fact. There is no doubt in mind he is a great athlete as is MV. Tell me how many SB's has he won. They are the same type of player. We would be to predictable with VY at QB cause you would have to be in shotgun formation about 90% of the time in order to benefit from his abilities. He needs to learn how to read defense's and develope that arm. Lookin at 3-4 yrs before you can see what he might be able to really do. Honeymoon will be over by then and there will be many PO fans!

OK, if VY needs work on his "throwing" which includes reading defenses, mechanics, etc...then YOU have to admit that Carr needs those same adjustments, Kubiak himself has said so. The arm strength argument has little bearing, if Brady (knocked for having weak arm strength out of college) and Chad Pennington can play in this league (sans shoulder injuries) then so can Young. He CAN throw the deep out, and the deep ball are some of his best throws. Vick and VY are incomparable in that Young is 6'5'' with greater pocket prescence and did not run a TRUE option offense in college like Vick did. Vick did not throw the ball nearly as much; if you don't believe me, check the stats. So what do we really have here; an upcoming 5th year player who needs all the work with reading defenses, pocket presence, and leadership ability, or a potential ROOKIE, who while needs work with defense and presence, already possesses greater athletiscism and PROVEN leadership ability...Now, without taking names into consideration, which player woudl you rather have on your team?

Waltman
02-03-2006, 07:28 AM
Here we go:stirpot:

thunderkyss
02-03-2006, 07:55 AM
yup. if i'd eaten as much well-manicured turf as carr had the last few years, there wouldn't even be a 2nd or 3rd option. snap and throw, no drop, no nothing.

there were some sacks, where he wasn't able to take a three step drop.... but he did manage to get outside the pocket, and away from danger many, many times. Peyton Manning, Jake Delhomme, and many others, would not have been able to have done much better, if any, than David. Bret Favre, McNabb, Culpepper, McNair, may very well have done something to help us to more wins. If Carr had time to make it to the sideline, He had time to make a play.

TEXANFAN23435
02-03-2006, 08:44 AM
TreWardTxn, if dumping the damaged goods, that we will call DC is the only option, then getting a QB who can start the 2006 season is at the top of the priority list. As I've stated before the only college QB ready to step under center in the NFL is Matt Leinert. This guy has had 3 outstanding seasons at USC and has played in a NFL style offense in each of those seasons. As successful as Carson Palmer was this year, I think ML can come in and be a year to year and half ahead of CP's learning curve. As I've mentioned in previous post, VY needs a 2 year seasoning process as a clip board carrier, much like McNair so he can enjoy optimal success at the NFL level.

The man's best year as a college QB came as a shotgun formation QB. There is a big difference in taking the snap 4-6 yards behind center and getting under center and having to take a 3-5 step drop. In the shotgun, VY was allowed to start his reads quicker and most important was allowed to view the pocket protection and pickup the blitzes faster. In the 3-5 step drop, QB's are stepping back, then as they're setting up and begin to make the reads a lot of times you just don't have time to pickup the blitzes, that's where the ultimate trust in your OL comes in. When your OL is suspect, defenses just pin their ears back and fly in, so when you hit that 3rd step you may have instant heat on you forcing a bad throw or in the 5 step drop, you get hit so hard that your cleats were left right where you was last standing. You have this done to you for more than 3 seasons and I don't care who the QB is, you just begin to question everything and throws your confidence into a tailspin. Anyone remember how Vinny Testeverde got hit so many times in Tampa Bay that by his 4th or 5th season, HE CLAIMED HE WAS FRICKIN COLOR BLIND!!!!!! Anyone on this MB think Steve Young wouldn't have suffered the same fate had he been forced to stay?????

HoustonFrog
02-03-2006, 09:24 AM
If the real Jim rome made this statement, i would at least be comfortable that his tongue was some version of planted in his cheek. I have never done any of those jobs, but in the big scheme of things those guys; mechanics, AC techs, and truck drivers are a heck alot more important that any football coach to most of the planet.

Also, if all of these "football" guys were so much smarter than all of us then there wouldn't be 8 coaching openings a year. Hate to tell you but I'd much rather have some of the posters here construct a team and look at salary cap issues than I would some of the so called experts...lol. Look at Matt Millen. Just because you played football and seem like a good guy doesn't make you a great evaluator of talent and a good person to run a team. Just staying..football and all of the professions named have morons that don't belong in it. Do they know more about their own sport? Definitely but there have been alot more players and coaches that have let people down over time than have succeeded.

TEXANRED
02-03-2006, 05:48 PM
Now, you're saying that Vince wouldn't be able to get to the sideline?? Whaa.... the thing that makes Vince different from David, is that once he gets out of the pocket, your chances are better, that he'll do something with the ball, other than take it out of bounds with him. Sure, David made some plays while on the move, but admit it... it's not his strong suit.

How long does it take Carr to get to the sideline?? What are the odds that a reciever had gotten open in that time??
Alright now I am going to have to say Whaa...

Not his strong suit? David is not a statue. He has been the leading AFC QB in rushes for the last three years and finishes second only to Vick. David's runs are not planned and improved unlike Vicks were it is in the play book. Carr's got the Pirellis and with Kube's coming in hopefully he will design some running plays to utillize his skills and keep the D on there toes.

Does anyone else get tired of posting the same thing over and over. Typical dialoge: David Carr is not a good QB. Typical response: Carr has no line, can't be effective. Typical responce: Oh horse doody, I am tired of that excuse.

But its true. He has no line. Thats not opinion, thats fact. It would be like saying you are tired of a one legged marathon runner coming in last and tired of hearing "Its b/c he only has one legg" excuse. Well.......Facts are facts. Until we get a solid O-line who are filling more than just a roster spot then we will never know how good David Carr can be. But he could also help himself out by not running out of bounds with the ball. :rolleyes:

Hardcore Texan
02-03-2006, 06:56 PM
Alright now I am going to have to say Whaa...

Not his strong suit? David is not a statue. He has been the leading AFC QB in rushes for the last three years and finishes second only to Vick. David's runs are not planned and improved unlike Vicks were it is in the play book. Carr's got the Pirellis and with Kube's coming in hopefully he will design some running plays to utillize his skills and keep the D on there toes.

Does anyone else get tired of posting the same thing over and over. Typical dialoge: David Carr is not a good QB. Typical response: Carr has no line, can't be effective. Typical responce: Oh horse doody, I am tired of that excuse.

But its true. He has no line. Thats not opinion, thats fact. It would be like saying you are tired of a one legged marathon runner coming in last and tired of hearing "Its b/c he only has one legg" excuse. Well.......Facts are facts. Until we get a solid O-line who are filling more than just a roster spot then we will never know how good David Carr can be. But he could also help himself out by not running out of bounds with the ball. :rolleyes:

I agree with you on that assessment. Personally I would have used the "one legged man in an as* kicking contest" analogy, but that's just me. But seriously, good point.

TEXANFAN23435
02-03-2006, 11:27 PM
Very good point, TEXANRED.

kevlar_h
02-04-2006, 01:09 AM
Taking Jake with in my opinion would be suicide. With a lack of production at offensive line, you need a scrambling quarterback. Jake does not fit that mold whatsoever.
I'd rather test my water with Carr.
What's this guy smoking? Jake is not a scrambling QB? Jake is twice as acurate passing when he's flushed out of the pocket.

I hope Kubiak brings the bootleg to Houston. I think Carr and Plummer are very much alike as far as ability. With Kubiak at the helm and a line up front, Carr will be a Pro Bowl QB.

thunderkyss
02-04-2006, 01:28 AM
What's this guy smoking? Jake is not a scrambling QB? Jake is twice as acurate passing when he's flushed out of the pocket.

I hope Kubiak brings the bootleg to Houston. I think Carr and Plummer are very much alike as far as ability. With Kubiak at the helm and a line up front, Carr will be a Pro Bowl QB.
Except Carr isn't nearly as accurate when he is on the move...
Alright now I am going to have to say Whaa...

Not his strong suit? David is not a statue. He has been the leading AFC QB in rushes for the last three years and finishes second only to Vick. David's runs are not planned and improved unlike Vicks were it is in the play book. Carr's got the Pirellis and with Kube's coming in hopefully he will design some running plays to utillize his skills and keep the D on there toes.

Does anyone else get tired of posting the same thing over and over. Typical dialoge: David Carr is not a good QB. Typical response: Carr has no line, can't be effective. Typical responce: Oh horse doody, I am tired of that excuse.



You're not feel'n me Tex..... Michael Vick can run all day long, and it'll get him some wins, and people will enjoy the show. But that's about as far as that'll go. He's not going to be all that he can be, till he is able to get that big play down the field..... yeah, go get your first down, go ahead, do it again.... that third time, go for the juggular, and make the big play down the field.

Carr's got wheels, he can get away, he can pick up the first down. Every now and again, he'll make the big play, but it's too far and in between. Vince is better at playing when he is flushed out of the pocket.

Picture this. The pocket collapses, David Carr will either run into the arms of a defensive player, curl up like a baby and wait for the sack, run out of bounds with the ball(technically, it is a sack, if it's behind the line of scrimmage) or pickup the first down.

Now, picture this. The pocket collapses, Vince young jukes....... then he jives.... then..he pump fakes... then .... he.... bobs.. then........... weeves.... then... I don't even know what to call that move, because I ain't never seen not'n like that.... then he throws the ball back across the field, because his tightend managed to get open... and he scores........

You give him time.... Carr's going to hurt you...... so will Vince.. You blitz him, and the man of steal is going to make you pay....

thunderkyss
02-05-2006, 09:56 AM
lol: lol: lol: O my gosh now we are making stuff up alow me to try.

David Carr gets his extentionfor another 3 years, We draft Reggie Bush. Kubiak and Carr work like mad dogs during the offseason(like he always has!). Carr excels under Kubiaks Offense because he finally has all the right people he should have had in the first place. The O is pumped about the NEW Offense, people are working hard, watching film to get ready for the game.
We get some good O Lineman in here next year, Bentley, Hutchenson we FINALLY give Carr the protection he needs(and we all know what Carr does with time he can hurt you).

Carr has a great game and Reggie and Dre catch for a 100+ yards each, Carr goes for 270 and 4 TDs, Reggie makes some out of this world juke more then once and rushes for 90 yards, Carr is kept off his back and half way through the season Carr is one of the guys for the MVP and you know what he says,"Give it to someone else I dont want it", WHY they ask? "Because I have not done anything different then I have the last 4 years I have been here". Then we get to the Superbowl and win it, Carr gets up there and says"This is for Bob, Kubes, the coaching staff my family and the "fans" that never gave up on me or my team. "I am out"

PS- They still give him the MVP because he throws for 3,800 yards 38 TDs and 7 INTs.

The pocket collapses, David Carr will either run into the arms of a defensive player, curl up like a baby and wait for the sack, run out of bounds with the ball(technically, it is a sack, if it's behind the line of scrimmage) or pickup the first down.

You ain't never seen none of this???? really??

vtech9
02-07-2006, 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Except Carr isn't nearly as accurate when he is on the move...



You're not feel'n me Tex..... Michael Vick can run all day long, and it'll get him some wins, and people will enjoy the show. But that's about as far as that'll go. He's not going to be all that he can be, till he is able to get that big play down the field..... yeah, go get your first down, go ahead, do it again.... that third time, go for the juggular, and make the big play down the field.

Carr's got wheels, he can get away, he can pick up the first down. Every now and again, he'll make the big play, but it's too far and in between. Vince is better at playing when he is flushed out of the pocket.

Picture this. The pocket collapses, David Carr will either run into the arms of a defensive player, curl up like a baby and wait for the sack, run out of bounds with the ball(technically, it is a sack, if it's behind the line of scrimmage) or pickup the first down.

Now, picture this. The pocket collapses, Vince young jukes....... then he jives.... then..he pump fakes... then .... he.... bobs.. then........... weeves.... then... I don't even know what to call that move, because I ain't never seen not'n like that.... then he throws the ball back across the field, because his tightend managed to get open... and he scores........

You give him time.... Carr's going to hurt you...... so will Vince.. You blitz him, and the man of steal is going to make you pay....


lol: lol: lol: O my gosh now we are making stuff up alow me to try.

David Carr gets his extentionfor another 3 years, We draft Reggie Bush. Kubiak and Carr work like mad dogs during the offseason(like he always has!). Carr excels under Kubiaks Offense because he finally has all the right people he should have had in the first place. The O is pumped about the NEW Offense, people are working hard, watching film to get ready for the game.
We get some good O Lineman in here next year, Bentley, Hutchenson we FINALLY give Carr the protection he needs(and we all know what Carr does with time he can hurt you).

Carr has a great game and Reggie and Dre catch for a 100+ yards each, Carr goes for 270 and 4 TDs, Reggie makes some out of this world juke more then once and rushes for 90 yards, Carr is kept off his back and half way through the season Carr is one of the guys for the MVP and you know what he says,"Give it to someone else I dont want it", WHY they ask? "Because I have not done anything different then I have the last 4 years I have been here". Then we get to the Superbowl and win it, Carr gets up there and says"This is for Bob, Kubes, the coaching staff my family and the "fans" that never gave up on me or my team. "I am out"

PS- They still give him the MVP because he throws for 3,800 yards 38 TDs and 7 INTs.
I'm sorry hulk75, but you must be dreaming. How many Texans games did you actually get to watch this year? This statement by thunderkyss is very true and happened way too many times, this year and the previous ones, for me to believe that he can turn it around in one year if he can do it at all....The pocket collapses, David Carr will either run into the arms of a defensive player, curl up like a baby and wait for the sack, run out of bounds with the ball(technically, it is a sack, if it's behind the line of scrimmage) or pickup the first down

Koolbrz
02-08-2006, 07:59 PM
Yes, I do. If you knew anything about QB's you wouldn't have asked this question. In a 3-step drop, once that third step hits ground, the QB is supposed to fire the ball or look to his next option if his 1st option is covered. Carr would not do this. If Carr's 1st option was covered, he would hold the ball and stare at his 1st option until he got hit or panicked and ran.

If you have copies of any of the games, watch how Carr takes the snap and immediately focuses on his 1st option. Watch and you will see how he never takes his eyes off of him. As a QB, you just can't do that if you want to be successful. You can get away with it in high school, and you can sometimes get away with it in college. Carr did get away with it for the most part in college. He had more time in college to stare down his WR's and wait for someone to come open because of the talent of the teams he played against. I remember seeing this while watching him play in college, but I thought that NFL coaching could take care of that. I saw that Carr had the physical abilities to be a star QB in the NFL, and didn't care about his shortcomings because I believed our coaches could correct them. I was wrong. Carr has been in the league for 4 years and he still has the same problems.


Trust me, I know football and what is expected from the QB position. Read my lips he did not have time to throw the ball!! In almost every one of his games he took 2 steps and had to run, alot of the time our great recievers could not get open, and you said it yourself the great coaching he has had up to now could not correct the fact that maybe he does look at his 1st option a lil to long. Maybe, just maybe, with a really good QB coach like Kubiak he can turn things around. I mean C. Palmer, come on, look at what happened with T. Couch. He may have been a good coach back in the day. He is not now. By the way i know that your supposed to fire the ball on your third step in a 3 step drop, our recievers just simply could not get open. AJ double teamed, and who really worries about Bradford and Gaffney. Even when they did get open they dropped the ball. Enough said

vtech9
02-09-2006, 01:20 AM
Trust me, I know football and what is expected from the QB position. Read my lips he did not have time to throw the ball!! In almost every one of his games he took 2 steps and had to run, alot of the time our great recievers could not get open, and you said it yourself the great coaching he has had up to now could not correct the fact that maybe he does look at his 1st option a lil to long. Maybe, just maybe, with a really good QB coach like Kubiak he can turn things around. I mean C. Palmer, come on, look at what happened with T. Couch. He may have been a good coach back in the day. He is not now. By the way i know that your supposed to fire the ball on your third step in a 3 step drop, our recievers just simply could not get open. AJ double teamed, and who really worries about Bradford and Gaffney. Even when they did get open they dropped the ball. Enough said
the point is....if your first option is not open, you look to your 2nd and 3rd option. These WR's are in the NFL, and are expected to catch the ball, so he still has to throw it to them to give them a chance to make a play. If the WR's drop the ball, that's something he can't control, but if he doesn't throw it to them, how can you say what would have happened.

If you go back and watch the games, you will see that Carr simply stared at his 1st option, while shuffling his feet and patting the ball, until he either got hit or panicked and ran. On top of that, when he did run, he would either run out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage for a sack, or run out of the pocket and right into the oncoming rusher. On the runs that he made positive yardage, he probably could have made a bigger play down field if he had simply looked. The problem with him running is that once he takes off, he seems to be only interested in where the closest defensive guy is, and not in where his WR's are. If defenses know that you aren't going to look to anyone but your 1st option, they can gamble and bring everything at you at once.

Basically what I am saying to you is...go get the recorded games and watch Carr. Watch him with an open mind, and try do be unbiased. Just watch the games and then come back and try to honestly tell it like you saw it. If you will just watch Carr with an open mind, I think you will be suprised with what you see. Oh, I would also like for you to find out which game it was that Carr could only get to two steps before being hit. When you find that, let me know which game it was, what quarter it was in, and approximately how much time was left in that quarter, so I can go back and watch it myself.:challenge

AustinJB
02-09-2006, 01:46 AM
the point is....if your first option is not open, you look to your 2nd and 3rd option. These WR's are in the NFL, and are expected to catch the ball, so he still has to throw it to them to give them a chance to make a play. If the WR's drop the ball, that's something he can't control, but if he doesn't throw it to them, how can you say what would have happened.

If you go back and watch the games, you will see that Carr simply stared at his 1st option, while shuffling his feet and patting the ball, until he either got hit or panicked and ran. On top of that, when he did run, he would either run out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage for a sack, or run out of the pocket and right into the oncoming rusher. On the runs that he made positive yardage, he probably could have made a bigger play down field if he had simply looked. The problem with him running is that once he takes off, he seems to be only interested in where the closest defensive guy is, and not in where his WR's are. If defenses know that you aren't going to look to anyone but your 1st option, they can gamble and bring everything at you at once.

Basically what I am saying to you is...go get the recorded games and watch Carr. Watch him with an open mind, and try do be unbiased. Just watch the games and then come back and try to honestly tell it like you saw it. If you will just watch Carr with an open mind, I think you will be suprised with what you see. Oh, I would also like for you to find out which game it was that Carr could only get to two steps before being hit. When you find that, let me know which game it was, what quarter it was in, and approximately how much time was left in that quarter, so I can go back and watch it myself.:challenge

Ditto:)

OzzO
02-09-2006, 09:34 AM
...If you go back and watch the games, you will see that Carr simply stared at his 1st option, while shuffling his feet and patting the ball, until he either got hit or panicked and ran.... If defenses know that you aren't going to look to anyone but your 1st option, they can gamble and bring everything at you at once..

Not calling you out, per se, but this arguement holds less water for me. When I first heard this arguement of locking onto one player, I watched a few other QB's to see their style. One I defintely recall is Payton Manning's style. He locks onto one as well.

The difference is, PM gets to the line earlier - looks for the mismatch and audibles as necessary. He can then "lock on". Based on past Carr / coaching - there wasn't a read of defense that there was little time once to get to the line to audible out (save for the "run") if the matchup was not what was expected. Texans seemed to have a "predict what the defense will do" while the Colts were running a "see what the defense will do" play.

thegr8fan
02-09-2006, 10:08 AM
Not calling you out, per se, but this arguement holds less water for me. When I first heard this arguement of locking onto one player, I watched a few other QB's to see their style. One I defintely recall is Payton Manning's style. He locks onto one as well.

The difference is, PM gets to the line earlier - looks for the mismatch and audibles as necessary. He can then "lock on". Based on past Carr / coaching - there wasn't a read of defense that there was little time once to get to the line to audible out (save for the "run") if the matchup was not what was expected. Texans seemed to have a "predict what the defense will do" while the Colts were running a "see what the defense will do" play. did you notice how many of those 'locked on' WR's got the pass to them from Payton Manning, A4? Most of the time that was the WR to got the pass. The difference there is Payton is able to read a defense and tell who the most probable open WR was going to be. Carr couldn't read a defense if they came with flashing neon signs on the front of their helmet saying 'rusher' or 'coverage'.

Carr is that bad, literally. Is it bad coaching, good defensive scheming, lack of game film study, or Carr's inability to play at an NFL level of speed and decision making? Perhaps it is a little of all, wrapped together to make a sure fire recipe for disaster, like a 2-14 season.

what I am loving is all of the current MB members who blame the coaching and were screaming for Chris Palmer to be fired and all would be well after that. The conspiracy theorist who touted how Carr and Palmer had some kind of personal grievance against each other and couldn't work together and Palmer had to go and Carr would become the next Montana. Well Palmer got fired and nothing seemed to change, at least nothing good anyway.

thunderkyss
02-09-2006, 10:15 AM
Not calling you out, per se, but this arguement holds less water for me. When I first heard this arguement of locking onto one player, I watched a few other QB's to see their style. One I defintely recall is Payton Manning's style. He locks onto one as well.

The difference is, PM gets to the line earlier - looks for the mismatch and audibles as necessary. He can then "lock on". Based on past Carr / coaching - there wasn't a read of defense that there was little time once to get to the line to audible out (save for the "run") if the matchup was not what was expected. Texans seemed to have a "predict what the defense will do" while the Colts were running a "see what the defense will do" play.


Even if he isn't allowed to change the play, it would make sense for Carr to recognize the coverage and determine what he will have to do. If that means calling a time out, because their are eight guys in the box, and he's got 3 recievers and one back, then he needs to call a time out. If he sees one on one,with AJ, then that should be his first option. If he sees a safety, linebacker, or a slower corner on Bradford/Mathis, then that should be his #1, that should be the guy he locks on to.

Kaiser Toro
02-09-2006, 10:18 AM
When it comes to DC it has always been three things to me: his audibles, his footwork after he sets his back foot and not going through progressions. Admittedly the progression side is not all DC as there are many factors, but when he did have the limited opps to go through them I never saw him scan the field.

The first two are things I am not sure he had the expereince to develop when you look at the limited number of games he played leading up to this NFL career. Once he got there he got hit repeatedly, development in my opinion was stumped during the season. I have always contended that he needed to work out with DB's in the off season to get better dexterity and we needed a well seasoned back up, who was a "gym rat" that would watch film continuously with him and share their experiences. Has Banks done this or do they have that relathionship? I do not know. Kubiak should fill this void immediately if it did exist.

Some of you will say leadership, which I have not seen from DC. But I am been around enough teams to know that everyone at this level has it in them to be a leader, it just shows itself in different forms and at different times. Once again Obi Wan Kubiak should be able to kickstart it.

To all my fellow Carr contract haters out there I have not abandoned you, just want to keep it real and not personal as this debate, at times, will turn.

vtech9
02-09-2006, 12:08 PM
just FYI, I don't hate Carr. In fact, he is the guy I wanted when he came out of college. I saw some problems with his play in college, but I thought they could have been corrected by NFL coaching. I have always believed that Carr has the physical abilities to be a great NFL QB, but what I am questioning now are his mental abilities to pick up of the nuances of the NFL game. I sincerely hope that Carr can turn his carreer around and be a star, but I am of mind like Kaiser Toro in that, I have a problem giving an $8 Million bonus to a QB that we STILL have to develope after four years in the NFL. They are going to have to retrain him to be an NFL QB, basically start over with him. After four years in the NFL, How long do you give him to turn around? What if his bad habits are so ingrained in him that he has become unteachable. I saw quite a few times on the sideline this past season where he would get defensive and argue with Pendry instead of just listening to him. Can that be fixed? I have a lot of questions, and I just feel uncomfortable giving him that much money without having those questions answered.

There has been alot of speculation on Carr's work ethic and his lack of staying late to watch game film. I remember watching an interview with Carr where he said that he watched game film at home. That's all well and good, but simply put, by watching game film at home, he might not notice mistakes he made that a coach watching with him would point out. IMHO, that is something that needs to change and must change if he is to improve.

OzzO
02-09-2006, 01:08 PM
...The difference there is Payton is able to read a defense and tell who the most probable open WR was going to be. Carr couldn't read a defense if they came with flashing neon signs on the front of their helmet saying 'rusher' or 'coverage'. ...

Then as Thunder noted after you and I before - we seem to agree on this point, at least being able to read the defense before the hike and adjust as necessary.

So is it Carr was limited by previous coaching to call "one of two" plays as he got to the line or is it he can't read a defense? Maybe that's what Kubiak will find out this offseason, and if Carr is back next year - what we'll find out under a new system.

Thunder - I can see the timeout thing... but he's only got 3 chances with that, and if they have to be burned on an incorrect play call - Texans better switch that around quick with new play calling process or a new QB.

bigTEXan8
02-09-2006, 01:35 PM
I am a Carr :homer:, but yet I still think that he should restructure his contract. It would go a long way in proving he's a team player, even though I think he's already proved that. Plus, if I was Carr, I wouldn't mind giving an extra few mill to protect my ***.

Koolbrz
02-09-2006, 02:41 PM
the point is....if your first option is not open, you look to your 2nd and 3rd option. These WR's are in the NFL, and are expected to catch the ball, so he still has to throw it to them to give them a chance to make a play. If the WR's drop the ball, that's something he can't control, but if he doesn't throw it to them, how can you say what would have happened.

If you go back and watch the games, you will see that Carr simply stared at his 1st option, while shuffling his feet and patting the ball, until he either got hit or panicked and ran. On top of that, when he did run, he would either run out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage for a sack, or run out of the pocket and right into the oncoming rusher. On the runs that he made positive yardage, he probably could have made a bigger play down field if he had simply looked. The problem with him running is that once he takes off, he seems to be only interested in where the closest defensive guy is, and not in where his WR's are. If defenses know that you aren't going to look to anyone but your 1st option, they can gamble and bring everything at you at once.

Basically what I am saying to you is...go get the recorded games and watch Carr. Watch him with an open mind, and try do be unbiased. Just watch the games and then come back and try to honestly tell it like you saw it. If you will just watch Carr with an open mind, I think you will be suprised with what you see. Oh, I would also like for you to find out which game it was that Carr could only get to two steps before being hit. When you find that, let me know which game it was, what quarter it was in, and approximately how much time was left in that quarter, so I can go back and watch it myself.:challenge


Pittsburg game this yr. check it out and tell me what you see. I'm not in love with DC just saying we need to give this guy a chance with some real coaches and a better o-line. I believe you will see a better QB.

thegr8fan
02-09-2006, 03:11 PM
the same Pittsburgh that won the Superbowl this year? You want to watch game film on the team that won the Superbowl against the worst team in the NFL this year? Does this seem like an accurate gage of Carrs ability against the 'NFL norm' to you? The best against the worst? I don't even have to watch that game again to tell you how it looked. It looked just like the best against the worst, on a team scale. The entire Texans team fell flat on their faces.

Your kidding on this one right? :stirpot:

vtech9
02-09-2006, 05:34 PM
Pittsburg game this yr. check it out and tell me what you see. I'm not in love with DC just saying we need to give this guy a chance with some real coaches and a better o-line. I believe you will see a better QB.
I saw the same thing I have seen in every game. I saw a QB that doesn't know how to read a defense. I saw a QB that panicked when he got pressured. Basically, I saw a QB that stared down his 1st option, held the ball too long, ran outside of his protection, and didn't throw the ball away.

Watch the play where he had a pocket to step up into, but instead ran outside of his protection and right into the guys that were being blocked. He was sacked and had the ball stripped from him. If he would have stepped up into the pocket like any other QB would have, the rush would have went past him and he could have thrown down field or ran through the gaping hole that was there. I still didn't see a sack before he got to his third step. Maybe I missed it. What quarter was it in, and what was the time on the clock?

Now, you go back and watch that game and tell me what you saw. I'll be waiting.

Koolbrz
02-09-2006, 08:04 PM
the same Pittsburgh that won the Superbowl this year? You want to watch game film on the team that won the Superbowl against the worst team in the NFL this year? Does this seem like an accurate gage of Carrs ability against the 'NFL norm' to you? The best against the worst? I don't even have to watch that game again to tell you how it looked. It looked just like the best against the worst, on a team scale. The entire Texans team fell flat on their faces.

Your kidding on this one right? :stirpot:

Pittsburgh was not the best team in the nfl at that time, sorry dude. It was only the second game of the yr. They came around, what in the 12th week. They were a totally diff. team from that point on. Check this out Pitt. had what 8 sacks, Tenn. had 7 sacks, Jac. had 6-7 sacks in two games, Indy had 9 in 2 games, Bal. had 4 maybe 5 sacks in there game with the texans. Yeah baby!!! That is some kind of protection. Gave Carr plenty of time to throw the ball. Check the stats if you like. :rolleyes:

aj.
02-09-2006, 08:18 PM
Pittsburgh was not the best team in the nfl at that time, sorry dude. It was only the second game of the yr. They came around, what in the 12th week. Check the stats if you like. :rolleyes:

I checked the stats. Pittsburgh was 7-2 going into Week 10 and they won their first two games of the season over really bad teams by a combined score of 61-14. That's what you're supposed to do to bad teams (destroy them).

Their only losses during the first 9 games were to New England and Jax by a combined 9 points. They "came around" in Week 1, lost two games in ten weeks to two playoff teams, then hit a rough stretch from Weeks 11-13, then won the rest of their games in impressive fashion.

Koolbrz
02-09-2006, 08:19 PM
I saw the same thing I have seen in every game. I saw a QB that doesn't know how to read a defense. I saw a QB that panicked when he got pressured. Basically, I saw a QB that stared down his 1st option, held the ball too long, ran outside of his protection, and didn't throw the ball away.

Watch the play where he had a pocket to step up into, but instead ran outside of his protection and right into the guys that were being blocked. He was sacked and had the ball stripped from him. If he would have stepped up into the pocket like any other QB would have, the rush would have went past him and he could have thrown down field or ran through the gaping hole that was there. I still didn't see a sack before he got to his third step. Maybe I missed it. What quarter was it in, and what was the time on the clock?

Now, you go back and watch that game and tell me what you saw. I'll be waiting.


So it was a bad decision. P. Manning could not run this last yrs. offense with the o-line and receivers that we have. Indy has a much better o-line than we do and look at how Manning played against Pitt. Just too much pressure, caused him to make some bad decisions kinda like what Carr faced all yr. Just look at tht stats--against Indy 2 games Carr was sacked 9 times, Jac. 4-5 times in 2 games, Bal. 4-5 times, Pitt. 8, and Tenn had what 7-8 sacks against them this past yr. Wow Dude that is some great protection!!! :yahoo:

Wordem
02-09-2006, 08:23 PM
To answer the original question . . . he's not all that good.

Koolbrz
02-09-2006, 08:23 PM
I checked the stats. Pittsburgh was 7-2 going into Week 10. Their only losses were to New England and Jax by a combined 9 points. They came around in Week 1, hit a rough stretch from Weeks 11-13, then won the rest of their games in impressive fashion.


They were 7-5 going into that 13th wk and almost eliminated from the playoffs. It was then that they began there impressive run. Besides you can't say they were the best team in the nfl considering it was only the second wk. of the season when they played the Texans.

Kaiser Toro
02-09-2006, 09:16 PM
I checked the stats. Pittsburgh was 7-2 going into Week 10 and they won their first two games of the season over really bad teams by a combined score of 61-14. That's what you're supposed to do to bad teams (destroy them).

Their only losses during the first 9 games were to New England and Jax by a combined 9 points. They "came around" in Week 1, lost two games in ten weeks to two playoff teams, then hit a rough stretch from Weeks 11-13, then won the rest of their games in impressive fashion.

Were you looking at the wrong year or was Pittsburgh a typo? Sir, step away from the bar with your wireless notebook. :)

vtech9
02-10-2006, 01:15 AM
They were 7-5 going into that 13th wk and almost eliminated from the playoffs. It was then that they began there impressive run. Besides you can't say they were the best team in the nfl considering it was only the second wk. of the season when they played the Texans.
Pittsburgh lost those 3 games to push there record to 7-5 because they didn't have a QB. Roethlesberger was out with an injury for those 3 weeks. Maddox & Batch filled in during that time and weren't very good. So in the games that Big Ben started, the Steelers only had those 2 losses that A.J. mentioned. In other words, the Steelers were good all along.

vtech9
02-10-2006, 01:30 AM
So it was a bad decision. P. Manning could not run this last yrs. offense with the o-line and receivers that we have. Indy has a much better o-line than we do and look at how Manning played against Pitt. Just too much pressure, caused him to make some bad decisions kinda like what Carr faced all yr. Just look at tht stats--against Indy 2 games Carr was sacked 9 times, Jac. 4-5 times in 2 games, Bal. 4-5 times, Pitt. 8, and Tenn had what 7-8 sacks against them this past yr. Wow Dude that is some great protection!!! :yahoo:
So you still refuse to watch the game and make an honest, unbiased opinion of Carr. Instead, you bring up stats that are skewed because it doesn't tell you how many of those sacks were a direct result of Carr's errors. You bring up the O-Line as an excuse and state that another QB couldn't play behind it. You try to relate what that other QB did against Pittsburgh, but you fail to point out that the other QB still had his team in a position to win the game. Granted, Manning was rattled early, but he made adjustments and almost pulled out the game. Have you ever seen Carr do this?

Don't try to base your argument on stats that don't even tell half the story. It doesn't make you look smart, all it does is make you look like you are grasping at straws

Fighting Blue Hen
02-10-2006, 01:45 AM
Let's get back to the original question. Yes.

Nighthawk
02-10-2006, 02:58 AM
I saw the same thing I have seen in every game. I saw a QB that doesn't know how to read a defense. I saw a QB that panicked when he got pressured. Basically, I saw a QB that stared down his 1st option, held the ball too long, ran outside of his protection, and didn't throw the ball away.

Watch the play where he had a pocket to step up into, but instead ran outside of his protection and right into the guys that were being blocked. He was sacked and had the ball stripped from him. If he would have stepped up into the pocket like any other QB would have, the rush would have went past him and he could have thrown down field or ran through the gaping hole that was there. I still didn't see a sack before he got to his third step. Maybe I missed it. What quarter was it in, and what was the time on the clock?

Now, you go back and watch that game and tell me what you saw. I'll be waiting.

Let it go. Everybody wants to give Carr another chance. Doesn't make sense to me, either. Maybe Kubiak can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

I've decided that my distaste for Carr runs deeper than football. I don't like the way the guy LOOKS. He looks like a pansy. He minces around and whines and pouts and even his expressions of power are weak, helmet throwing, tantrum-like things. I like a QB like Favre who's just plain tough. Or maybe Big Ben, who seems like a nice guy who'll play his heart out for you. Carr looks like the guy who goes home in the middle of the game cause somebody got mud on him. I think it was finally completely clear this year when he went down in the backfield before the sacking LB even got to him. That's when I knew Carr was lost, a total wuss.

But hey, that's just me.

AustinJB
02-10-2006, 03:30 AM
Let it go. Everybody wants to give Carr another chance. Doesn't make sense to me, either. Maybe Kubiak can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

I've decided that my distaste for Carr runs deeper than football. I don't like the way the guy LOOKS. He looks like a pansy. He minces around and whines and pouts and even his expressions of power are weak, helmet throwing, tantrum-like things. I like a QB like Favre who's just plain tough. Or maybe Big Ben, who seems like a nice guy who'll play his heart out for you. Carr looks like the guy who goes home in the middle of the game cause somebody got mud on him. I think it was finally completely clear this year when he went down in the backfield before the sacking LB even got to him. That's when I knew Carr was lost, a total wuss.

But hey, that's just me.

Mmmmmmmm....I don't know about that.

I am one of the major proponents of VY, and I think Carr is a lost cause. But even I can't say that he's not tough and is a total wuss. I mean, c'mon...the guy has been sacked more times in the past four yrs than any QB in the history of the NFL (yes, a lot of which were his own fault.) To his credit, he
can take a hit and keep getting back up. The things that I don't like about Carr have nothing to do w/ his toughness.

I would like to see a more "fiery" attitude towards winning the game....much like Favre, as you mentioned. I'd like to see him step up into a leadership role. I'd like to see him be more decisive and confident. I'd like to see him check down to his 2nd and 3rd option. I'd like to see him step up into the pocket (the few times that it IS there) and make a throw instead of running to his right and running right into the pass rush.

I'd like to see him fight and struggle to get away from the pass rush instead of falling down by himself. I'd like to see him throw the DAMN ball as he's running to the sidelines instead of running out of bounds and giving the Oline another sack. I'd like to see him arrive early and stay late to work on his game...to the point that there could never even be a question by anyone in the media or fanbase of whether or not he is completely dedicated. Basically, I'd like to see him do all of the things that a legitimate NFL QB is supposed to do...especially one taken #1 overall.

But most of all....I'd just like to see some sign of IMPROVEMENT before we decide to keep him as our undisputed QB for the next three yrs and pass on great potential QB talent in this year's draft. Anyway, THOSE are the reasons I'm frustrated w/ Carr....but a wuss? He IS durable if he's anything at all.:twocents:

Dr. Toro
02-10-2006, 03:43 AM
The guy is tough, he is not a pansy, but I don't like his body language on the field. I'd like to see motivational tactics that don't involve hair. How can Brady get away with Gap ads and GQ covers, but Carr comes off as a pretty boy? Maybe winning is the answer, maybe leadership is the answer... I don't know.

The guy hasn't had it easy, but consistent toughness in the face of consistent failure just means the guy can take some licks. It's nice to have a good chin, but being able to avoid shots and deal some blows of your own are important too. I don't know how we got on the boxing analogy, but while we're there, I guess that makes Carr the football equivalent of Chuck "The Bayonne Bleeder" Wepner.

thunderkyss
02-10-2006, 08:24 AM
I would like to see a more "fiery" attitude towards winning the game....much like Favre, as you mentioned. I'd like to see him step up into a leadership role. I'd like to see him be more decisive and confident. I'd like to see him check down to his 2nd and 3rd option. I'd like to see him step up into the pocket (the few times that it IS there) and make a throw instead of running to his right and running right into the pass rush.


But most of all....I'd just like to see some sign of IMPROVEMENT before we decide to keep him as our undisputed QB for the next three yrs and pass on great potential QB talent in this year's draft. Anyway, THOSE are the reasons I'm frustrated w/ Carr....but a wuss? He IS durable if he's anything at all.:twocents:

This is where I'm at two.... there was another thread, where everyone jumped on one of our members, because that member didn't like it when David said he'd rather take a sack, than throw an interception. Look at Bret's year in 2005.... man did he throw some interceptions... Granted, if David threw that many of interceptions, you'd think he'd be on his way out..(like Joey Harrington).. David & Joey don't have the luxury of being Bret Favre like, and getting away with throwing 21 interceptions. When Bret does it, he's trying to win, giving his recievers an opportunity to make a play on the ball. When Joey/David does it....... they're just stupid.

But we will officially pick up Carr's option today....... $5.25 million + $8 million to find out what we've got........ that's ridiculous.

infantrycak
02-10-2006, 08:37 AM
I've decided that my distaste for Carr runs deeper than football. I don't like the way the guy LOOKS. He looks like a pansy. He minces around and whines and pouts and even his expressions of power are weak, helmet throwing, tantrum-like things. I like a QB like Favre who's just plain tough. Or maybe Big Ben, who seems like a nice guy who'll play his heart out for you. Carr looks like the guy who goes home in the middle of the game cause somebody got mud on him. I think it was finally completely clear this year when he went down in the backfield before the sacking LB even got to him. That's when I knew Carr was lost, a total wuss.

But hey, that's just me.

Thank you--the 1st step is admitting the problem. Nice immature way to judge a football player.

infantrycak
02-10-2006, 08:59 AM
So you still refuse to watch the game and make an honest, unbiased opinion of Carr. Instead, you bring up stats that are skewed because it doesn't tell you how many of those sacks were a direct result of Carr's errors.

I'm your huckleberry. You have been bludgeoning people with your review of game tape showing Carr "never" does anything but lock on to his 1st option and that people are making excuses for him by blaming the OL. I took a stab at breaking down the passing game on 4 of the games last year and anything resembling an objective review doesn't lead to the sweeping assertions you are making. At least over that 4 game span you could frequently see Carr look to more than one option. Was he making good decisions based on the reads?--we really don't know because we can't see the coverage down field. But we can see your assertion that Carr "always" locks on to #1 and "never" looks anywhere else is charitably described as an exaggeration. Want to bet Kubiack is better at teaching good progression decisions than Pendry?

Similarly, this ooh people are making excuses about the OL for Carr whine is tired. It might make sense if Carr were actually responsible for more than half the sacks, but he isn't. Carr on an ungenerous to him standard might be responsible for 30% of his sacks last year. Well guess what, that still leaves the Texans pass protection (OL, TE's & RB's) sucking with 48 sacks. Now read that carefully--it doesn't say Carr wasn't part of the problem--he was but this isn't some mutually exclusive deal and even taking Carr's sacks out (which is a problem Carr needs to work on) he would have been hit far more than acceptable and far more than an average QB.

OK everyone go back to their black and white arguments. Sorry for the interruption.

Hardcore Texan
02-10-2006, 10:16 AM
Let it go. Everybody wants to give Carr another chance. Doesn't make sense to me, either. Maybe Kubiak can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

I've decided that my distaste for Carr runs deeper than football. I don't like the way the guy LOOKS. He looks like a pansy. He minces around and whines and pouts and even his expressions of power are weak, helmet throwing, tantrum-like things. I like a QB like Favre who's just plain tough. Or maybe Big Ben, who seems like a nice guy who'll play his heart out for you. Carr looks like the guy who goes home in the middle of the game cause somebody got mud on him. I think it was finally completely clear this year when he went down in the backfield before the sacking LB even got to him. That's when I knew Carr was lost, a total wuss.

But hey, that's just me.

Why don't you tell that to his face, big guy.

jerek
02-10-2006, 10:19 AM
I'm your huckleberry. You have been bludgeoning people with your review of game tape showing Carr "never" does anything but lock on to his 1st option and that people are making excuses for him by blaming the OL. I took a stab at breaking down the passing game on 4 of the games last year and anything resembling an objective review doesn't lead to the sweeping assertions you are making. At least over that 4 game span you could frequently see Carr look to more than one option. Was he making good decisions based on the reads?--we really don't know because we can't see the coverage down field. But we can see your assertion that Carr "always" locks on to #1 and "never" looks anywhere else is charitably described as an exaggeration. Want to bet Kubiack is better at teaching good progression decisions than Pendry?

Similarly, this ooh people are making excuses about the OL for Carr whine is tired. It might make sense if Carr were actually responsible for more than half the sacks, but he isn't. Carr on an ungenerous to him standard might be responsible for 30% of his sacks last year. Well guess what, that still leaves the Texans pass protection (OL, TE's & RB's) sucking with 48 sacks. Now read that carefully--it doesn't say Carr wasn't part of the problem--he was but this isn't some mutually exclusive deal and even taking Carr's sacks out (which is a problem Carr needs to work on) he would have been hit far more than acceptable and far more than an average QB.

OK everyone go back to their black and white arguments. Sorry for the interruption.

Why re-type it when Infantry already said it?

Koolbrz
02-10-2006, 01:33 PM
So you still refuse to watch the game and make an honest, unbiased opinion of Carr. Instead, you bring up stats that are skewed because it doesn't tell you how many of those sacks were a direct result of Carr's errors. You bring up the O-Line as an excuse and state that another QB couldn't play behind it. You try to relate what that other QB did against Pittsburgh, but you fail to point out that the other QB still had his team in a position to win the game. Granted, Manning was rattled early, but he made adjustments and almost pulled out the game. Have you ever seen Carr do this?

Don't try to base your argument on stats that don't even tell half the story. It doesn't make you look smart, all it does is make you look like you are grasping at straws


I'm telling you what i see and what is a fact. I"m just giving you an example, Indy, of what pressure from a defense can do to a QB. No matter who it is. Yes they had an opportunity to win, but guess what cause of the pressure Pitt. was putting on manning they could not do it. They had to depend on there Kicker. Stats are stats. Its what happens in a game. They do tell alot. If they did not why even bother keeping them.

Koolbrz
02-10-2006, 01:37 PM
Pittsburgh lost those 3 games to push there record to 7-5 because they didn't have a QB. Roethlesberger was out with an injury for those 3 weeks. Maddox & Batch filled in during that time and weren't very good. So in the games that Big Ben started, the Steelers only had those 2 losses that A.J. mentioned. In other words, the Steelers were good all along.


Doesn't matter, there was still 10 guys out there that had been starting all yr. They hit a lil slump, happens to all of us. It is a team game and someone else needed to pick up the slack. They did not so they lost. Its just the way it is brother.

McNabbMVP05
02-10-2006, 01:43 PM
Yes, yes he is. But thats only because he plays for a franchise based in houston the worst city in America.

vtech9
02-10-2006, 01:43 PM
I'm your huckleberry. You have been bludgeoning people with your review of game tape showing Carr "never" does anything but lock on to his 1st option and that people are making excuses for him by blaming the OL. I took a stab at breaking down the passing game on 4 of the games last year and anything resembling an objective review doesn't lead to the sweeping assertions you are making. At least over that 4 game span you could frequently see Carr look to more than one option. Was he making good decisions based on the reads?--we really don't know because we can't see the coverage down field. But we can see your assertion that Carr "always" locks on to #1 and "never" looks anywhere else is charitably described as an exaggeration. Want to bet Kubiack is better at teaching good progression decisions than Pendry?

Similarly, this ooh people are making excuses about the OL for Carr whine is tired. It might make sense if Carr were actually responsible for more than half the sacks, but he isn't. Carr on an ungenerous to him standard might be responsible for 30% of his sacks last year. Well guess what, that still leaves the Texans pass protection (OL, TE's & RB's) sucking with 48 sacks. Now read that carefully--it doesn't say Carr wasn't part of the problem--he was but this isn't some mutually exclusive deal and even taking Carr's sacks out (which is a problem Carr needs to work on) he would have been hit far more than acceptable and far more than an average QB.

OK everyone go back to their black and white arguments. Sorry for the interruption.
Who bludgeoned who?

He brought up one game as an example. I challenged him to go back and watch that game with an open mind. If you call that bludgeoning, you have issues. If you are going to bring a weak argument, expect it to be challenged. If you try to bring in stats that don't tell the whole story, expect them to be disregarded. I'll agree with you that during a couple games Carr did get better at checking down, but better than nothing isn't saying much. I can understand that you want to give Carr the benefit of the doubt, but people are constantly making excuses for him by blaming his O-Line, with you included, although not as often or as blatant. I think you were being very generous to Carr in stating that he was responsible for only 30% of his sacks. I think that number is closer to 40%.

I know you want to see Carr succeed, and so do I, but we just have differing opinions on his current level. It's as simple as that.

Texans86
02-10-2006, 01:45 PM
Yes, yes he is. But thats only because he plays for a franchise based in houston the worst city in America.

You're good at making friends quickly, aren't you?

Welcome to the board.

McNabbMVP05
02-10-2006, 01:47 PM
You're good at making friends quickly, aren't you?

Welcome to the board.

Im not interested in being friends with someone who wears a cowboy hat to work.

vtech9
02-10-2006, 01:52 PM
Doesn't matter, there was still 10 guys out there that had been starting all yr. They hit a lil slump, happens to all of us. It is a team game and someone else needed to pick up the slack. They did not so they lost. Its just the way it is brother.
Yes it did matter. It mattered quite a bit. When your QB, you know that guy that touches the ball every offensive play, can't hit an open WR, it tends to allow the defense to stack the line to stop the run. With Batch and Maddox in there, the Steelers were one dimensional. They had almost no passing game. The QB is THE single most important person on the team. So goes the QB, so goes the team.

Texans86
02-10-2006, 01:53 PM
Im not interested in being friends with someone who wears a cowboy hat to work.

Umm...Have you been to Texas? Near the state even? Houston is like every other big city in America. I'm not quite sure where you are going with the cowboy hat idea.

infantrycak
02-10-2006, 02:01 PM
I challenged him to go back and watch that game with an open mind. If you call that bludgeoning, you have issues.

It took more than one post for me to jump in and challenge the absolute statements you have been making.

I can understand that you want to give Carr the benefit of the doubt, but people are constantly making excuses for him by blaming his O-Line, with you included, although not as often or as blatant. I think you were being very generous to Carr in stating that he was responsible for only 30% of his sacks. I think that number is closer to 40%.

If you say so. I went back to review several games in detail (funny, I asked for feedback on those reviews and other than Vinny, basically received nothing detailed--hmmm) to see what was fact and what was exageration. Funny, it must have been a coincidence that I only saw games where you can actually see Carr's head move from one target to another more than "never"--I guess I am just giving him the benefit of the doubt. Vinny has been one of the most consistant and best critics of Carr for years. When I came up with the 30% figure he indicated it was high if anything. I'll stick with my review and his before shooting a 40% from the hip.

vtech9
02-10-2006, 02:32 PM
It took more than one post for me to jump in and challenge the absolute statements you have been making.



If you say so. I went back to review several games in detail (funny, I asked for feedback on those reviews and other than Vinny, basically received nothing detailed--hmmm) to see what was fact and what was exageration. Funny, it must have been a coincidence that I only saw games where you can actually see Carr's head move from one target to another more than "never"--I guess I am just giving him the benefit of the doubt. Vinny has been one of the most consistant and best critics of Carr for years. When I came up with the 30% figure he indicated it was high if anything. I'll stick with my review and his before shooting a 40% from the hip.
just because nobody gave you feedback doesn't mean that you are correct or that nobody disagreed with you. Who know's it could have meant that they didn't think your thread was worth the time to post in. During the season, I didn't have enough time to read every post, and still don't, so I probably missed your thread. Most of the time when someone said something bad about Carr, there were several others, to use your term, bludgeoning them for their statements. It seemed like Vinny was the only one that was allowed to make those statements without being hammered. For the 1st couple seasons I was like you, and I didn't want to see Carr's faults. I disagreed with Vinny on several occasions, but it got to the point when I just couldn't deny Carr's bad tendencies. I guess you could be right in one sense. If Carr looked to his 2nd option even once a game, that would be more than never. Actually, I don't recall saying "never", so I will have to go back and check on that. Did I actually say "never", or were you just assuming that is what I meant.

By the way, I stand my statement of closer to 40%. I fault Carr for every one of the sacks that occurred because of his holding the ball too long and not throwing it away.

infantrycak
02-10-2006, 02:41 PM
It seemed like Vinny was the only one that was allowed to make those statements without being hammered. For the 1st couple seasons I was like you, and I didn't want to see Carr's faults.

Funny, I seem to remember having had a number of discussions with Vinny, ArlingtonTexan and others about Carr and the things he needed to work on going back to the 2002 season. Yes you used the term never and that was the point of my post--exagerations. 40% isn't close to realistic and neither is never, but at the heart of the matter you are correctly stating two things--Carr needs to work on progressions and avoiding pressure/sacks. Probably just my issue, but I don't like black and white descriptions and will often be found posting in opposition whether it be Carr never looks off his primary or Carr's WR's are never open or Carr never gets good pass protection--all are false.

vtech9
02-10-2006, 03:01 PM
Funny, I seem to remember having had a number of discussions with Vinny, ArlingtonTexan and others about Carr and the things he needed to work on going back to the 2002 season. Yes you used the term never and that was the point of my post--exagerations. 40% isn't close to realistic and neither is never, but at the heart of the matter you are correctly stating two things--Carr needs to work on progressions and avoiding pressure/sacks. Probably just my issue, but I don't like black and white descriptions and will often be found posting in opposition whether it be Carr never looks off his primary or Carr's WR's are never open or Carr never gets good pass protection--all are false.
And I believe I was one of the ones discussing that with you and them when I had the time to do so. I usually don't post much, but I have been here since the 1st season. Personally, I like Carr, I have all the way back to his junior year a Fresno State. He was my choice for our first ever pick. I think he has the physical ability to be one of the best QB's in NFL history, but his mental game has not improved to a level that is needed to be a great QB, or at this point, even a decent one.

Yes, I did say never one time. So on the few plays that he did actually looked somewhere else, that does constitute more than never. My apologies. This is what I said: If you have copies of any of the games, watch how Carr takes the snap and immediately focuses on his 1st option. Watch and you will see how he never takes his eyes off of him. As a QB, you just can't do that if you want to be successful. You can get away with it in high school, and you can sometimes get away with it in college. Anyway, People blamed the coaches for some of Carr's problems and lack of developement. While I agree to a point, I have a hard time saying that the coaches were that bad. In all honesty, those coaches were in the NFL for a reason. If they hadn't proven themselves in their carreer up to the NFL, they never would have made it. So to say that they couldn't see Carr's problems when alot of fans could, is near impossible for me to believe. I guess that is the reason that I have a problem with giving Carr that big bonus, and why I questioned whether or not he is teachable at this point. For the Texans sake, I sure hope he is.

Koolbrz
02-10-2006, 07:37 PM
Let it go. Everybody wants to give Carr another chance. Doesn't make sense to me, either. Maybe Kubiak can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

I've decided that my distaste for Carr runs deeper than football. I don't like the way the guy LOOKS. He looks like a pansy. He minces around and whines and pouts and even his expressions of power are weak, helmet throwing, tantrum-like things. I like a QB like Favre who's just plain tough. Or maybe Big Ben, who seems like a nice guy who'll play his heart out for you. Carr looks like the guy who goes home in the middle of the game cause somebody got mud on him. I think it was finally completely clear this year when he went down in the backfield before the sacking LB even got to him. That's when I knew Carr was lost, a total wuss.

But hey, that's just me.

I would love to see you play QB on this team since you know exactly what it takes to be one. Hey with your knowledge we just might turn things around.

Koolbrz
02-10-2006, 07:50 PM
Yes it did matter. It mattered quite a bit. When your QB, you know that guy that touches the ball every offensive play, can't hit an open WR, it tends to allow the defense to stack the line to stop the run. With Batch and Maddox in there, the Steelers were one dimensional. They had almost no passing game. The QB is THE single most important person on the team. So goes the QB, so goes the team.


Okay, check this out. Do you really believe The Bears have a great QB? No they don't. Look at what they did. Total team effort!!! Everyone from the offense, defense, special teams, coaches, water boy, hell even the cheerleaders made it happen. Like i told you before, in order to win you need a total team effort. Pitt. was just in a slump and could not pull out those wins. One more thing, don't be bad mouthing Batch and Maddox--they are now Super Bowl Champs!!:yahoo:

vtech9
02-10-2006, 11:40 PM
Okay, check this out. Do you really believe The Bears have a great QB? No they don't. Look at what they did. Total team effort!!! Everyone from the offense, defense, special teams, coaches, water boy, hell even the cheerleaders made it happen. Like i told you before, in order to win you need a total team effort. Pitt. was just in a slump and could not pull out those wins. One more thing, don't be bad mouthing Batch and Maddox--they are now Super Bowl Champs!!:yahoo:
Chicago at least had a QB that could get the ball to an open WR..............I'm sorry, you aren't even worth my time debating this. Have a nice night.:goodnight

edo783
02-11-2006, 12:50 AM
Chicago at least had a QB that could get the ball to an open WR

Yup, QBs can do that when they have time and a WR that can actually get open soon enough. But, of course you won't admit that is an issue as you would much prefer to rag on Carr rather than see the whole picture.

vtech9
02-11-2006, 10:53 AM
Yup, QBs can do that when they have time and a WR that can actually get open soon enough. But, of course you won't admit that is an issue as you would much prefer to rag on Carr rather than see the whole picture.
If you want to comment, at least follow the conversation. He was trying to compare Chicago to a 3 loss stretch that Pittsburgh had when Big Ben was out. He tried to state that it didn't matter that Ben was out, and I stated that it did matter because Maddox and Batch couldn't get the ball to WR's that were wide open, and Chicago at least had a QB that could hit an open WR.

Koolbrz
02-11-2006, 03:56 PM
Chicago at least had a QB that could get the ball to an open WR..............I'm sorry, you aren't even worth my time debating this. Have a nice night.:goodnight


Don't get mad dude...Just stating a fact. Chicago avg. what 5.27 yds per pass. To me that is not really stretching the field. Chicago's passing game was horrible at best this yr. By the way this avg. is for the 2 QB's that played for them. (K. Orton and Rex Grossman). Now lets take a look at Pitt.'s dynamic duo of Batch and Maddox. The few games that they did play they avg. 6.25 yds per pass. Based on this you tell me who had the better passing game. Of course when Big Ben was in there they avg. 8.9 yds. per pass, but thats besides the point. Check it out for yourself if you like:cool:

thunderkyss
03-02-2006, 10:35 AM
Some points he(gafney) made about Carr were:
- the coaches had a noose around his neck, but when they let him play his game, Carr is unstoppable he feels.
-Carr is an awesome leader and the team rallies around him and really respects him
-Carr is a true gamer, studies loads of film, lives and breathes football, but he feels he was held back or resticted by the Texans' philosophies. He feels Carr has enough game to set the tone of a game ala P. Manning if he is given the freedom.


Okay, let's assume this is true. I'll give David the Benefit of the doubt for these next three questions.

1) Dom Capers had to have known his job was in jeopardy.. Why wouldn't he let David take over, if he knew that what David did worked..... if he knew we(he) would have more wins if he didn't put a knoose around David, than if he did, then why not let the kid play?? This is his job on the line, and you're telling me he couldn't see what all the Carr supporters see, even though he(Dom) spent more time watching and evaluating David than any of us??

it just don't make sense to me.

2) Why didn't David throw off the knoose?? If he is the leader of the team, and knows the most important thing for the team, is to win games, why didn't he stick his neck out there more often, and not only when he is allowed?? Sometimes, you've got to just take charge, you shouldn't be told when to do it, and when not to. I understand, that he should listen to(obey) the head coach as much as possible, but at 2-14, if the coach is the problem.... what's it going to take for David to show that he is a leader?? If he's got the team behind him, then it shouldn't have been too difficult.

3)When things didn't go well, who did David express his frustrations too?? Have you ever seen him having a heated discussion with Capers on the sideline??

jerek
03-02-2006, 11:07 AM
Okay, let's assume this is true. I'll give David the Benefit of the doubt for these next three questions.

1) Dom Capers had to have known his job was in jeopardy.. Why wouldn't he let David take over, if he knew that what David did worked..... if he knew we(he) would have more wins if he didn't put a knoose around David, than if he did, then why not let the kid play?? This is his job on the line, and you're telling me he couldn't see what all the Carr supporters see, even though he(Dom) spent more time watching and evaluating David than any of us??

it just don't make sense to me.

2) Why didn't David throw off the knoose?? If he is the leader of the team, and knows the most important thing for the team, is to win games, why didn't he stick his neck out there more often, and not only when he is allowed?? Sometimes, you've got to just take charge, you shouldn't be told when to do it, and when not to. I understand, that he should listen to(obey) the head coach as much as possible, but at 2-14, if the coach is the problem.... what's it going to take for David to show that he is a leader?? If he's got the team behind him, then it shouldn't have been too difficult.

3)When things didn't go well, who did David express his frustrations too?? Have you ever seen him having a heated discussion with Capers on the sideline??

(1) It has been reported that Capers had too much faith in his assistants. Call him loyal, call him sackless, call him ignorant, but apparently the guy thought Pendry/Fangio were going to get the job done. Tell me Fangio's defense wasn't the epitome of disaster: well, I suppose Carr's magical FO stranglehold had something to do with that too? For that matter why did Capers, a "defensive specialist" continue to allow Fangio to ruin an NFL defense? ... Whatever Capers situation, you cannot make it a question of Carr's place in it. There was clearly a lack of intelligent leadership from top to bottom on this coaching staff and that is why most of them no longer work for us.

(2) This is really, really dumb. Carr is supposed to what, ignore Pendry's playcall, flip him the bird, convene the huddle, and substitute his own? Do that, and Pendry will be screaming for him to come out. So then what? Carr ignores Pendry, calls his own play again? Pendry runs out onto the field and puts Carr in an arm lock and leads him off? The players all rally around Carr's spirited display of insubordination and drive 99 yards and ... then what?

That **** only happens in the movies. No NFL player of any kind is going to sit there and do his own thing, because if there is one thing you can say about any NFL player it is that they like their paycheck. After we get through cutting Carr for that display, no coach in the league is going to take a quarterback who says **** you coach, I'm calling my own plays, no matter how "right" he may have been. TO was a ridiculously gifted player who was "right" about a lot of things, and he spent last season on his couch. An NFL team is still an organization, still a team, and there is still management and subordination and the necessity of respecting it. It just doesn't happen. As much as professional athletes are not particularly a model of decorum, there are certain professional standards and traditions that you do not violate. Come game day, a coach calls plays, a coach structures a quarterback's room to audible, and it is respected. As far as Vince's "dispute" with Mack Brown, Vince took it behind closed doors, talked it out, and apparently Brown gave him the freedom, switched up his offense to accomodate Vince. Vince didn't say screw you coach I am calling this instead in the middle of the game. There is a big, big difference, which leads me to ...

(3) Carr expressed his frustrations with the coaching staff, mostly behind closed doors. This I know, don't ask, you will not get an answer, so take with a grain of salt if you wish. Even if I am wrong, you cannot be mad at the guy because he chooses to show his coaches respect and doesn't ***** them out like a prima donna on the sidelines. Believe it or not, there are wrong ways and right ways to confront a person, and more than that there are personality traits that each player will act out of, and you can't fault Carr because he has the self control not to scream like an *****. This is right up there with those "haircut-equals-loser" arguments ... a guy doesn't cry and moan and pitch a fit, so he is heartless. Then those same posters who attack Carr for being heartless accuse him of being a bad locker room influence and disrespected by his teammates when he actually does get demonstrably pissed at Corey Bradford dropping his fifth pass of the game. Which is it? Decide, please, because this double standard is getting old fast.

texplayer2
03-02-2006, 11:27 AM
((2) This is really, really dumb. Carr is supposed to what, ignore Pendry's playcall, flip him the bird, convene the huddle, and substitute his own? Do that, and Pendry will be screaming for him to come out. So then what? Carr ignores Pendry, calls his own play again? Pendry runs out onto the field and puts Carr in an arm lock and leads him off? The players all rally around Carr's spirited display of insubordination and drive 99 yards and ... then what?

That **** only happens in the movies. No NFL player of any kind is going to sit there and do his own thing, because if there is one thing you can say about any NFL player it is that they like their paycheck. After we get through cutting Carr for that display, no coach in the league is going to take a quarterback who says **** you coach, I'm calling my own plays, no matter how "right" he may have been. TO was a ridiculously gifted player who was "right" about a lot of things, and he spent last season on his couch. An NFL team is still an organization, still a team, and there is still management and subordination and the necessity of respecting it. It just doesn't happen. As much as professional athletes are not particularly a model of decorum, there are certain professional standards and traditions that you do not violate. Come game day, a coach calls plays, a coach structures a quarterback's room to audible, and it is respected. .

:) I watched a show the other day about how Bernie Kosar left the Browns. Called his own play and it went for a TD. Belichek let him go that week.

thunderkyss
03-02-2006, 01:46 PM
(1)There was clearly a lack of intelligent leadership from top to bottom on this coaching staff and that is why most of them no longer work for us.
I'm just trying to get into their heads..... it doesn't make sense to me. Caper's Fires Palmer, and get's more of the same with Pendry.... how is it possible, that he doesn't listen to a word Carr says, even after his spectacular half in St. Louis...

(2) This is really, really dumb. Carr is supposed to what, ignore Pendry's playcall, flip him the bird, convene the huddle, and substitute his own? Do that, and Pendry will be screaming for him to come out. So then what? Carr ignores Pendry, calls his own play again? Pendry runs out onto the field and puts Carr in an arm lock and leads him off? The players all rally around Carr's spirited display of insubordination and drive 99 yards and ... then what?

That **** only happens in the movies. No NFL player of any kind is going to sit there and do his own thing, because if there is one thing you can say about any NFL player it is that they like their paycheck. After we get through cutting Carr for that display, no coach in the league is going to take a quarterback who says **** you coach, I'm calling my own plays, no matter how "right" he may have been. TO was a ridiculously gifted player who was "right" about a lot of things, and he spent last season on his couch. An NFL team is still an organization, still a team, and there is still management and subordination and the necessity of respecting it. It just doesn't happen. As much as professional athletes are not particularly a model of decorum, there are certain professional standards and traditions that you do not violate. Come game day, a coach calls plays, a coach structures a quarterback's room to audible, and it is respected. As far as Vince's "dispute" with Mack Brown, Vince took it behind closed doors, talked it out, and apparently Brown gave him the freedom, switched up his offense to accomodate Vince. Vince didn't say screw you coach I am calling this instead in the middle of the game. There is a big, big difference, which leads me to ...
The coach calls a play, David repeats it in the huddle, he sees the defense, and thinks I better call an audible. and he then audibles to whatever he wants.... when he gets to the sidelines, the coach can and he can have a talk about why he made the decisions he made. After this continues to happen, and Carr sees he can't win, then fine, do what they ask... Unless I've missed it, Carr hasn't had any beef, differences with the Coach. I don't know for that he blames Capers for the problems they have been having.


(3) Carr expressed his frustrations with the coaching staff, mostly behind closed doors. This I know, don't ask, you will not get an answer, so take with a grain of salt if you wish. Even if I am wrong, you cannot be mad at the guy because he chooses to show his coaches respect and doesn't ***** them out like a prima donna on the sidelines. Believe it or not, there are wrong ways and right ways to confront a person, and more than that there are personality traits that each player will act out of, and you can't fault Carr because he has the self control not to scream like an *****. This is right up there with those "haircut-equals-loser" arguments ... a guy doesn't cry and moan and pitch a fit, so he is heartless. Then those same posters who attack Carr for being heartless accuse him of being a bad locker room influence and disrespected by his teammates when he actually does get demonstrably pissed at Corey Bradford dropping his fifth pass of the game. Which is it? Decide, please, because this double standard is getting old fast.
There is a big difference between a heated discussion, and bitching out your coaches in public.... "My radio was screwed up, I thought that's what you said, won't happen again coach...."
Then what does it mean, that neither Palmer, Pendry, or Capers supported Carrs ability to think for himself?? or trust him enough to call real audibles?? Or that Carr couldn't convince people that a failing plan wasn't working?? 1 step drop?? How can you go into Sunday thinking that is going to solve your problems??

& for the record... I want to trade down.. I'm trying to come to terms of David Carr behind center one more year... I think drafting Reggie is the dumbest thing we can do, and hopefully all the dumb people left Houston when Capers heard the news. If we're going to draft someone with the #1 overall, I vote for Vince... But I'd much rather trade down.

Wolf
03-02-2006, 01:54 PM
You saw what happened to some of the defensive players that made some noise about the coaching staff... deactivation.

tsip
03-02-2006, 01:55 PM
I have a tough time accepting that it's OK for a RB or WR to make an adjustment on a called play but not the QB. If a run is called to go off LT-for example- but won't work, the RB may change the called play and try something else. If the QB gets into 'pressure' trouble, the WR may change the route and come back to the QB, for example. However, according to some posters, adjusting/improvising/changinging is not allowed by the QB-akin to a sin.

I still remember Montanna and Elway in the 4th qtr leading their teams to victory---was all that pre-determined and in the playbook? I don't think so...but that's just me.

Wolf
03-02-2006, 02:02 PM
back to your question


1) I have no idea why Capers didn't cut Carr loose on the field. I have no idea why Banks played in SF instead of Ragone. I don't know why the Texans didn't sit Carr down when he struggled so maybe we could have gamefilm on someone else running our offense on gameday.

Capers is a better defensive coach IMO than a 31st or 32nd ranking for his team.. why didn't he take over the defensive playcalling???? esp when his job was on the line.

2) it is a thin line on that... If Carr starts doing his own thing, then rumors fly about him being a rebel or cancer in the locker room..and probably gets benched if he started doing his own thing.. so he follows his coaches decisions.IMO it is one of those things that when you win no one cares what you do, when you are losing,well the microscope get put on you
:twocents: