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KSig44
01-29-2006, 12:49 PM
I did, I looked at his stats compared to another great NFL QB about to go into the hall and this is what I found.

Aikman's first 4 years

G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
11 11 293 155 52.9 1749 6 75t 9 18 55.7
15 15 399 226 56.6 2579 6.5 61t 11 18 66.6
12 12 363 237 65.3 2754 7.6 61 11 10 86.7
16 16 473 302 63.8 3445 7.3 87t 23 14 89.5

Pretty good, always progressing. Year 4 they were a playoff calibre team with lots of talent on it.

Carr's first 4 years

G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
16 16 444 233 52.5 2592 5.84 81 9 15 62.8
12 11 295 167 56.6 2013 6.82 78 9 13 69.5
16 16 466 285 61.2 3531 7.58 69 16 14 83.5
16 16 423 256 60.5 2488 5.88 53 14 11 77.2

always progressing till year 4, but unlike the Cowboys, the Texans in Carr's 4th year are not a playoff team, in fact Carr is still dealing with an OLine that is still expansion calibre.

I think Carr can be salvaged. He is a good QB, all he needs is talent. The fact he is still throwing a 60% completion percentage shows that all is not lost with him.

I am on the trade the pick band wagon only if we can get great value. If not then I want Bush. He is more NFL prepared than Young is by a long shot. Say what you will, but when Young gets to the NFL he will struggle hard. Every team is like a whos who of college talent, not a Baylor, not a Kansas. He could rely on his legs beacuse he was a man among boys. Now he is just another man in a league that had LB's and some DE's that run just as fast. When it comes to passing, he is right there with Michael Vick. Young needs to learn behind someone like Chris Simms did, Mack Brown can't coach a QB to save his life and the NFL scouts know it. I don't care if he went to Texas, that is the only reason that most of you are fighting for him. If he went to Michigan it would be Bush all the way.

cadahnic
01-29-2006, 01:09 PM
KSig44 you cannot come on this board and throw facts around and expect to get good replies. Man most of the intelligent posters on this board understand Carr's situation, and our main problem is not his overall skills, but his contract. Right now I feel he should be restructured to a deal similar to Jake Plummers that gives us two years at a cheap price and makes him very tradeable, but it also gives us the ability if he shows he is the man to give him a nice bonus and make him one of the higher paid QBs in the league.

Big B Texan Fan
01-29-2006, 01:13 PM
Where's the sack #'s. That is one of the reasons we're having prblems. Year 1 it was the O-line, but year 4, c'mon. The dude can't read an NFL defense. It's proven.

bigtex77
01-29-2006, 01:13 PM
I want to trade down, and I am by no means in love with VY, but to say his passing skills aren't better than Vick's is ridiculous.

powerfuldragon
01-29-2006, 01:15 PM
Where's the sack #'s. That is one of the reasons we're having prblems. Year 1 it was the O-line, but year 4, c'mon. The dude can't read an NFL defense. It's proven.

check the INT's again.

jetdoc
01-29-2006, 01:17 PM
$29MILLION is no bargain basement price for Jake Plummer. The year he went to Denver from here (Phoenix), he was the BEST FA/QB on the market. Everyone in Arizona was laughing their azzes off for what Denver paid him. The last 2 yrs it's toned down to a low giggle! :crying: However, he didn't have an OL here either and the system they put him in was THE WORST SYSTEM he could've EVER been in. Denver rolls him out. Not very often will you see him standing between the 2 Tackles in the pocket. Denver rolls him out and rolls the pocket with him. That's where he's at his best. Too bad that THREE different Head Coaches here couldn't figure that out. :brickwall :brickwall

Big B Texan Fan
01-29-2006, 01:21 PM
check the INT's again.
You can't get a pass off to either get a completion or an INT when you cannot read an NFL defense and decide to take a sack, get sacked, throw an incompletion, overthrow a wide open receiver, or scramble pre-maturely.

In the light of saying that INT's aren't bad then let's say we take away 15-20 sacks. He still leads the league in sacks I believe and some of that passes thrown would've been INT's. I say add 6-8 INT's with your arguement. Still is opportunistic.

kbourda
01-29-2006, 01:25 PM
I did, I looked at his stats compared to another great NFL QB about to go into the hall and this is what I found.

Aikman's first 4 years

G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
11 11 293 155 52.9 1749 6 75t 9 18 55.7
15 15 399 226 56.6 2579 6.5 61t 11 18 66.6
12 12 363 237 65.3 2754 7.6 61 11 10 86.7
16 16 473 302 63.8 3445 7.3 87t 23 14 89.5

Pretty good, always progressing. Year 4 they were a playoff calibre team with lots of talent on it.

Carr's first 4 years

G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
16 16 444 233 52.5 2592 5.84 81 9 15 62.8
12 11 295 167 56.6 2013 6.82 78 9 13 69.5
16 16 466 285 61.2 3531 7.58 69 16 14 83.5
16 16 423 256 60.5 2488 5.88 53 14 11 77.2

always progressing till year 4, but unlike the Cowboys, the Texans in Carr's 4th year are not a playoff team, in fact Carr is still dealing with an OLine that is still expansion calibre.

I think Carr can be salvaged. He is a good QB, all he needs is talent. The fact he is still throwing a 60% completion percentage shows that all is not lost with him.

I am on the trade the pick band wagon only if we can get great value. If not then I want Bush. He is more NFL prepared than Young is by a long shot. Say what you will, but when Young gets to the NFL he will struggle hard. Every team is like a whos who of college talent, not a Baylor, not a Kansas. He could rely on his legs beacuse he was a man among boys. Now he is just another man in a league that had LB's and some DE's that run just as fast. When it comes to passing, he is right there with Michael Vick. Young needs to learn behind someone like Chris Simms did, Mack Brown can't coach a QB to save his life and the NFL scouts know it. I don't care if he went to Texas, that is the only reason that most of you are fighting for him. If he went to Michigan it would be Bush all the way.

I think that most have for the most part. But the question really is have you done more than a little research on Carr?

ArlingtonTexan
01-29-2006, 01:33 PM
This thread has been done several times before. I am not going to spend the time and energy as I have before pulling up QBs which had mediocore at best careers showing how similair Carr's numbers are to those guys. Not new and has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

bakerooskie
01-29-2006, 01:36 PM
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268/splits/2005

Here's a link to David Carr's 2005 stats, you canlook around and find his other year's stat's... Do a little thinking, and try to come up with an intelligent post... Get the fact's straight, it is the product of an inconsistant O-line, they can block for the running game... But they have a hard time holding off the pass rush... I don't know, hate it or love it, I think David Carr is going to do alright for himself in the future.

Hardcore Texan
01-29-2006, 01:53 PM
Groundhog day...again

Tyr
01-29-2006, 01:53 PM
In the light of saying that INT's aren't bad then let's say we take away 15-20 sacks. He still leads the league in sacks I believe and some of that passes thrown would've been INT's. I say add 6-8 INT's with your arguement. Still is opportunistic.

I am not a huge poster, most everyone pretty much hammers all points that can be made. This argument bothers me though. Carr throws 11 INT's in 423 total attempts and is suddenly going to throw 6-8 more INT's in 15-20 additional attempts if he didn't get sacked?

Now I realize under pressure the odds increases he makes a mistake, but I seriously doubt it is that high. Some of those completions he did make was rushing out of the pocket away from defenders. Other times he would take the ball and run, it isn't guaranteed what he would do if he didn't take the sack.

423 attempts / 11 INT = 2.6%

20 additional attempts @ 2.6% = half an interception, so maybe 1-3 can be added with a worse case scenario?

Napa Auto Parts
01-29-2006, 02:35 PM
this comparison has been made by the homers since the second year i believe but i think it is unfair to compare carr to aikman to many Diferrences. the only similarity i see is the number on their Jersey.

Wolf
01-29-2006, 02:40 PM
:redtowel: Here's to Bush becoming our Herschel Walker :party:

:sarcasm:
:heh:

BradK10
01-29-2006, 03:07 PM
You can't get a pass off to either get a completion or an INT when you cannot read an NFL defense and decide to take a sack, get sacked, throw an incompletion, overthrow a wide open receiver, or scramble pre-maturely.

In the light of saying that INT's aren't bad then let's say we take away 15-20 sacks. He still leads the league in sacks I believe and some of that passes thrown would've been INT's. I say add 6-8 INT's with your arguement. Still is opportunistic.

so you're saying that if you took away that number of sacks that HALF of the throws would be INTs? Puh-lease....purely speculative, and you're blinders on ever even thinking Carr was capable of more doesn't help the credibility of your argument.

jetdoc
01-29-2006, 03:12 PM
:redtowel: Here's to Bush becoming our Herschel Walker :party:


:heh:

If only Ditka were STILL in New Orleans? Oh the possibilities! :sarcasm:

Tulip
01-29-2006, 03:26 PM
Fewer yards than year 1. Almost fewer YPA than year 1. Great.

Jack Bauer
01-29-2006, 03:42 PM
I think that most have for the most part. But the question really is have you done more than a little research on Carr?


Actually MOST of the Carr bashers have done little or no research on him. The real problem is the offensive line and until this situation is corrected, there is no way to properly evaluate him. I would love to put some of you Carr bashers behind his line in an NFL game just to show you how much time he has to throw the ball. I know it would be MUCH FASTER than you think right now.

ArlingtonTexan
01-29-2006, 04:49 PM
Actually MOST of the Carr bashers have done little or no research on him. The real problem is the offensive line and until this situation is corrected, there is no way to properly evaluate him. I would love to put some of you Carr bashers behind his line in an NFL game just to show you how much time he has to throw the ball. I know it would be MUCH FASTER than you think right now.

Actually since most of the posters here did not play football past highschool with a few playing in college, putting them behind any pro line would pretty much would have the same effect.

stevo3883
01-29-2006, 05:01 PM
I have done extensive research on this "Carr"

it appears he is a "quarter-back" for a football team called the "Texans"

He is said to have an ongiong fued with his "offensive line", which appears to be a rival gang in the region. Apparently this "Carr" didn't pay his protection, so he was roughed up by the "defense".

This "Carr" is rumored to have dashing good looks, and a hairstyle to match. He has been said to have bedded hundreds of womenfolk, under no false pretense.

He has often been compared to "Joey" throughout his career. but now a new man is in town. Simply known as "VY". "VY" has been heard showing interest in Carr's position, and wants to run him out of town. "VY" is a legend in these parts, and stories of him stretch all the way from the slums of Columbus, to the outskirts of Los Angeles. Said to be fast as a Cheetah and strong as an Ox "VY" has made a name for himself as pulling out the win when all hopes are lost.

that is all I have discovered for now, ill get back with more later.

jerek
01-29-2006, 05:13 PM
this comparison has been made by the homers since the second year i believe but i think it is unfair to compare carr to aikman to many Diferrences. the only similarity i see is the number on their Jersey.

Facts and opinions aside, I love how "Carr lovers" are "homers" but meanwhile the mountain of rhetoric that says draft Vince because he is from Houston and people will pay to see him play is "the right business decision."

thunderkyss
01-29-2006, 09:29 PM
$29MILLION is no bargain basement price for Jake Plummer. The year he went to Denver from here (Phoenix), he was the BEST FA/QB on the market. Everyone in Arizona was laughing their azzes off for what Denver paid him. The last 2 yrs it's toned down to a low giggle! :crying: However, he didn't have an OL here either and the system they put him in was THE WORST SYSTEM he could've EVER been in. Denver rolls him out. Not very often will you see him standing between the 2 Tackles in the pocket. Denver rolls him out and rolls the pocket with him. That's where he's at his best. Too bad that THREE different Head Coaches here couldn't figure that out. :brickwall :brickwall


It's really about the system. Coaches come in with their system, try to get players that will fit that system, and then teach them the best that they can to do the best that each player can, to be a part of that system. I don't know Arizona that well, but if you had three coaches with three different systems trying to get Jake to work in it, then it's up to Jake to try to fit into that system. Sounds like he tried, but it didn't work. What happened last Saturday, shows Jake to be a bigger part of the problem in Arizona than some people want to admit.

Now, is David Carr the Kinda QB that can roll out with the pocket, and make plays down the field?? I've never thought of him like that. If that is a reason why Kubiak and Shanahan wanted Jake, then it is reasonable to believe Kubiak prefers that type. If Plummer was Shanahan's idea, and Kubiak wanted more of a pocket passer, then I think he'll be pleased with Carr. Once Carr leaves the pocket, he needs to be thinking about two things. 1) the first down or 2) chunking it. He is not Jake Plummer.

HoustonFan
01-29-2006, 09:39 PM
$29MILLION is no bargain basement price for Jake Plummer. The year he went to Denver from here (Phoenix), he was the BEST FA/QB on the market. Everyone in Arizona was laughing their azzes off for what Denver paid him. The last 2 yrs it's toned down to a low giggle! :crying: However, he didn't have an OL here either and the system they put him in was THE WORST SYSTEM he could've EVER been in. Denver rolls him out. Not very often will you see him standing between the 2 Tackles in the pocket. Denver rolls him out and rolls the pocket with him. That's where he's at his best. Too bad that THREE different Head Coaches here couldn't figure that out. :brickwall :brickwall

Translation there's hope for Carr. Obviously the system is going to change. I'd like to see the guy succeed.

bigtex77
01-29-2006, 10:03 PM
Facts and opinions aside, I love how "Carr lovers" are "homers" but meanwhile the mountain of rhetoric that says draft Vince because he is from Houston and people will pay to see him play is "the right business decision."

You are dead on. Coulldn't have said it better.

thunderkyss
01-29-2006, 10:04 PM
I did, I looked at his stats compared to another great NFL QB about to go into the hall and this is what I found.

Aikman's first 4 years

G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
11 11 293 155 52.9 1749 6 75t 9 18 55.7
15 15 399 226 56.6 2579 6.5 61t 11 18 66.6
12 12 363 237 65.3 2754 7.6 61 11 10 86.7
16 16 473 302 63.8 3445 7.3 87t 23 14 89.5

Pretty good, always progressing. Year 4 they were a playoff calibre team with lots of talent on it.

Carr's first 4 years

G GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
16 16 444 233 52.5 2592 5.84 81 9 15 62.8
12 11 295 167 56.6 2013 6.82 78 9 13 69.5
16 16 466 285 61.2 3531 7.58 69 16 14 83.5
16 16 423 256 60.5 2488 5.88 53 14 11 77.2



Troy really started playing like Carr his last few seasons with the Cowboys. I'm sure he was asked to retire, more than he wanted to.

Dr. Toro
01-29-2006, 10:12 PM
Big B, I don't know if it's Carr's fault, but he's just got an awful pocket presence. He may be shell shocked, his line might be solely to blame, or he might just not have that vision and clock he needs to succeed.

I dug some stats from Fresno, and while I couldn't find individual stat numbers, Fresno took 31 sacks Carr's senior year (that's in the WAC). By comparison, Young took 13 this year (with a great line, but those numbers also reflect negative rushes) and Leinart took 14 (again, great line but we know how he moves). The problem is, 31 sacks in college in a weak conference is a lot for a big guy that has decent legs.

I also dug up Carr's 2002 NFL.com draft prospect sheet and it stated as a negative that he held the ball too long and was vulnerable to the sack. The knock was dead on then and it seems to be now. He seemed to regress this year with respect to his pocket presence, so I'm not sure how much he has improved from prospect to 4 year veteran in this regard. The question becomes, after having been sacked 208 times, can he improve this, or is he even worse off than he was as a rookie?

Bottom line, if he doesn't markedly improve in this aspect of the game, he will never be a playoff winning QB. Despite his line and weapons, Manning couldn't even handle an intense, elite blitzing playoff defense. Plummer didn't fare as well as Manning. Whose to think that Carr can perform in this situation if he gets crushed week in and week out? I know the way good NFL QBs have been hammered in the playoffs has been used to Carr's defense, but there's another side of it too. If these guys in these offenses couldn't get it done in the playoffs, how can a guy who hasn't got it done in the regular season do it?

David Carr is strong, tough, fairly mobile, with a great arm, and I'm sure he can put up some monster numbers with a great line and diverse offensive weapons. But if he can't perform under defensive pressure we might never be more than a WC contender.

Carr Bombed
01-29-2006, 10:36 PM
Troy really started playing like Carr his last few seasons with the Cowboys. I'm sure he was asked to retire, more than he wanted to.

Uh.......I'm pretty sure he wasn't asked to retire....its not like they had a guy waiting in the wings and after he left they couldn't find nothing but scrubs to replace him with. I think it had more to do with the constant reoccurring concussions he was suffering from, that were presenting a real threat towards his health.

Big B Texan Fan
01-29-2006, 10:52 PM
Thanx 4 the back-up Dr Toro

Sorry for the inacuracies to the posters that felt it necessary for the mathematical breakdown of my sack/int ratio. I was in a hurry. My bad.

Point blank though, he has proven that he cannot read NFL defenses well enough to keep this club @ .500 or better. I mean whether it's shellshocked, gunshy, or happy feet, he's proven that he does not have what it takes mentally to be a field general. Geez, just scroll up and look at his picture in the collage.......HE'S SCRAMBLIN'. I'm sure it's not by design either.

Season 1, not his fault. Line was poor/pouress
Season 2, took a sack/got sacked for a safety that injured him for most of the season. Not his fault, sort of.
Season 3, much better (still lack-lustre though) and finnaly got a hair-cut after a 2 game winning streak. Get's his *** whipped after failing to go 8-8 and stormed into the coaches office and demanded changes.
Season 4, his true colors shined through with a sack performance just 6 shy of his own 76 record. He made his O-line look so bad that they obviously gave up on him towards the end of the season. He proved that he cannot read NFL defenses any better than me or you could.

He has been accused of not spending much time reviewing film on his own time. Well it showed on the field this past season. You can only expect what you inspect. He needs to go elsewhere to be successful, it ain't happening here.