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View Full Version : What would it take to get you to trade Carr?


Nighthawk
01-29-2006, 02:39 AM
If Carr is worth something substantial in trade, trading him seems like it might be a good idea for rebuilding the team. I'm thinking we might get a mid-1st round choice and a mid-second.

Would that be enough for you to trade him?

If not, what would it take?

And, what is he worth to other teams? Anybody got an idea?

Big B Texan Fan
01-29-2006, 03:32 AM
Alot of teams would be inticed because of us having to pay majority of is contract. Less $$ on them while they get a battle tested QB.

Hottoddie
01-29-2006, 04:00 AM
1) Bob McNair would have to hire me as GM of the Texans.
2) Bob McNair would have to give me complete control over player personnel moves.
3) Bob McNair would have to let go of his commitment & belief in Carr.
4) Bob McNair would have to pay me at least $1,000,000 a year, with a guaranteed 5 year contract & an unlimited expense account.

Now, once we get past those little obstacles, I'm assuming that you would want me to replace Carr with the most NFL ready QB prospect available. Since, I just know that this is not another thread cleverly concealing a "We must draft Young" thread, then that would be Leinart. Is that who you really want? I think I'd rather have Carr over Leinart, anyday.

I bleed steel blue
01-29-2006, 05:12 AM
I say trade Carr to the Raiders for Doug Gabriel and a 2nd rd. pick, then use that 2nd rd pick to trade Atlanta for Matt Schaub.

swtbound07
01-29-2006, 05:34 AM
somebody would have to ask me politely? It wouldnt take much, i tell you that. That behemoth of an extension for that results....trade him for a decent center and you improve the team leaps and bounds

thunderkyss
01-29-2006, 08:32 AM
LeCharles Bently

cuppacoffee
01-29-2006, 10:27 AM
1) Bob McNair would have to hire me as GM of the Texans.
2) Bob McNair would have to give me complete control over player personnel moves.
3) Bob McNair would have to let go of his commitment & belief in Carr.
4) Bob McNair would have to pay me at least $1,000,000 a year, with a guaranteed 5 year contract & an unlimited expense account.

Now, once we get past those little obstacles, I'm assuming that you would want me to replace Carr with the most NFL ready QB prospect available. Since, I just know that this is not another thread cleverly concealing a "We must draft Young" thread, then that would be Leinart. Is that who you really want? I think I'd rather have Carr over Leinart, anyday.

:spy:...Curses, foiled again. :D

:coffee:

texan279
01-29-2006, 10:47 AM
If Carr is worth something substantial in trade, trading him seems like it might be a good idea for rebuilding the team. I'm thinking we might get a mid-1st round choice and a mid-second.

Would that be enough for you to trade him?

If not, what would it take?

And, what is he worth to other teams? Anybody got an idea?

Carr and his contract are untradable, you probably couldn't give the two away, much less get 2 draft picks for him and his contract. And isnt this like the 3rd or 4th trade Carr thread you have started in the last week or two?

4Texans
01-29-2006, 11:27 AM
:twocents: If they are to get any reasonable value for him, considering that he was the #1 overall pick, they will have to play him this year and all his potential must shine. I think Phillip Rivers is worth more right now than D. Carr is on the trading block. In saying that, I still can't wait to see how Kubiak is going to handle Carr, and what the results are going to be.

cadahnic
01-29-2006, 11:34 AM
Would not trade Carr unless he proved that he cannot be a successful QB in this league. Carr has been given chances and just last year he was considered by most one of the top young QBs in the league that needed more pieces around him and a good OL. Strange we are one year later and he still needs the same thing. Carr did not revert he just never learned to throw the ball off his ***.

awtysst
01-29-2006, 12:19 PM
At the moment you cannot trade Carr. IF you really want to trade Carr you build up your line and you showcase him next year. You show him off to the league and drive his price up. That way this time next year, people needing a QB will trade more for a guy who had a good season, then a guy coming off a bad season. This year you MIGHT get a 3rd rounder for him, but i cant imagine too much more.

Big B Texan Fan
01-29-2006, 12:22 PM
Would not trade Carr unless he proved that he cannot be a successful QB in this league. Carr has been given chances and just last year he was considered by most one of the top young QBs in the league that needed more pieces around him and a good OL. Strange we are one year later and he still needs the same thing. Carr did not revert he just never learned to throw the ball off his ***.
In his first year he took every single snap and got sacked 76 times. This year he did not take every snap and I believe he missed a game (could be wrong on that one) as well as he didn't even finish up the 49'r game. He wound up with 68 this year. Hmmmm. Was this year collectively worse than the 1st as far as sack go?

Our first years O-line was a joke. This past years O-line was head and shoulders above the inaugural one and they still sucked.......? Or was the QB decision making and inability to read an NFL defense the problem? You tell me.

bigTEXan8
01-29-2006, 12:32 PM
So this the 723rd "trade Carr" thread I've seen. I swear, if wish I was a mod, that way bam!!...this thread is dead. I swear people. The only way Carr gets traded is if Dom gets his job back, and for some God awful reason we draft VY, then Carr gets traded. Get over it people.

Nighthawk
01-29-2006, 03:26 PM
So this the 723rd "trade Carr" thread I've seen. I swear, if wish I was a mod, that way bam!!...this thread is dead. I swear people. The only way Carr gets traded is if Dom gets his job back, and for some God awful reason we draft VY, then Carr gets traded. Get over it people.


It is the 72nd thread on the subject, but it gets few sensible responses.

I mean, surely there's a point at which the greater good emerges and, in spite of your profound and undying affection for Carr, you trade him for the draft picks he might bring.

If you say he can't be traded or he's worth nothing in trade now, that makes sense but dodges the question. It's a "what if" question.

Maybe we could get two number twos for him? Or a two and a three. All I can see is a deep top of the draft and us getting extra picks.

thegr8fan
01-29-2006, 03:29 PM
what would it take for me to trade him? A stick of bubble gum, not the whole pack, just one stick, to be chewed after a steak dinner bought by the receiving team who made the trade. Oh yeah, and a handshake at the end. Don't want them trying to break the deal after they find out how they got suckered. :yahoo:

Napa Auto Parts
01-29-2006, 03:32 PM
what would it take for me to trade him? A stick of bubble gum, not the whole pack, just one stick, to be chewed after a steak dinner bought by the receiving team who made the trade. Oh yeah, and a handshake at the end. Don't want them trying to break the deal after they find out how they got suckered. :yahoo:



:stirpot: :rofl: i at least want a Bazzoka Joe So i can have a little story to read.

bigTEXan8
01-29-2006, 03:38 PM
It is the 72nd thread on the subject, but it gets few sensible responses.

I mean, surely there's a point at which the greater good emerges and, in spite of your profound and undying affection for Carr, you trade him for the draft picks he might bring.

If you say he can't be traded or he's worth nothing in trade now, that makes sense but dodges the question. It's a "what if" question.

Maybe we could get two number twos for him? Or a two and a three. All I can see is a deep top of the draft and us getting extra picks.

I have said this before, yesterday in fact, that I would find it hard to believe that any team would give us more than a 3rd rounder for Carr. Because of what Capers and Co has done to Carr, teams are going to be skiddish. I think it was after game 2 or 3, I was calling for Carr to be traded because I thought this organization was going to put Carr in a wheelchair. So far, McNair has more or less made me hate him less with the steps he has taken:
1. Getting rid of Capers
2. Hiring Kubiak
3. Letting Kubiak take care of his own staff
4. Giving Carr a chance to prove himself after being neglected since the point he was drafted.
I can understand where people would want to blame Carr. Believe me, I know just as well as anyone else that his stats are far from adequate, especially for a first overall pick. But what can you expect from a QB that has no o-line, 1 WR, a defense that could stop themselves from farting, and a coach that has not guts to go for it on 4th and 2 when you're down late in the 4th Q? That's my point. I respect yours.

Nighthawk
01-29-2006, 04:44 PM
Believe me, I know just as well as anyone else that his stats are far from adequate,

Actually, his stats aren't that bad. The problems are elsewhere.

bigTEXan8
01-29-2006, 04:51 PM
Actually, his stats aren't that bad. The problems are elsewhere.

Well, for a first overral, you expect stats like what Palmer put up this year. I admit, even as a Carr :homer: that, his personal play has been less than stellar. I just don't see his problems as heavy as I see the problems around him; o-line, WRs, coaches, etc.

mexican_texan
01-29-2006, 06:07 PM
I say trade Carr to the Raiders for Doug Gabriel and a 2nd rd. pick, then use that 2nd rd pick to trade Atlanta for Matt Schaub.
the Falcons wouldn't take a first for Shaub

jerek
01-29-2006, 06:15 PM
At this point I would trade him if it meant not reading another I-want-Vince thread until April.

thunderkyss
01-29-2006, 10:17 PM
At this point I would trade him if it meant not reading another I-want-Vince thread until April.


Excellent. one more convert........... three more to go.

YodAa
01-29-2006, 10:51 PM
if we got a good enough offer, I'm talking a 2nd round pick, I'd trade him. But no one will trade that much for an unproven player

michaelm
01-30-2006, 12:40 AM
Despite popular opinion, Carr's contract makes him MORE attractive to other teams.
The Texans would be on the hook for picking up his extension, therefor he would be relatively affordable to a team who gets him in trade...

jim rome
01-30-2006, 12:02 PM
I would Trade Carr for lecharles Bentley and their first round pick this year and i would draft bush and young and give them our first pick next year and Carr.

Maddict5
01-30-2006, 12:11 PM
id take a late 1st rounder and a decent player

tex
01-30-2006, 03:34 PM
So this the 723rd "trade Carr" thread I've seen. I swear, if wish I was a mod, that way bam!!...this thread is dead. I swear people. The only way Carr gets traded is if Dom gets his job back, and for some God awful reason we draft VY, then Carr gets traded. Get over it people.
THANK YOU!!!!!

TexanBacker93
01-30-2006, 03:39 PM
I traded my car away last October. Got a nice Honda Ridgeline. I'd hold onto that other Carr, though. It's got some dings on the frame, but it still has low miles and should be good for a long time.

Big B Texan Fan
01-30-2006, 03:43 PM
carr and his agent could request a trade/sign and trade.
he and his family might not want to go through the ridicule if this blows up in the texans face. his wife was getting harrassed before, it could get worse if VY does great things wherever he goes (if not here) and carr keeps up his status qou.

this is a possibility (although it won't happen, he's not a quitter) so save the "carr hater" replies. I like carr, I just want to see him succeed. It aint happening here.

Sam_24
01-30-2006, 06:49 PM
Denver has two first round picks, Texas is in need of offensive linemen. So why not take their highest pick and possibly Trevor Pryce for David Carr?
Or Maybe their high pick with Mike Anderson and just draft Vince Young over Bush?

Overalls
01-30-2006, 07:35 PM
Our first years O-line was a joke. This past years O-line was head and shoulders above the inaugural one and they still sucked.......? Or was the QB decision making and inability to read an NFL defense the problem? You tell me.
I must have missed all the great moves Charley made to put our O-line "head and shoulders" over the year 1 line.

thunderkyss
01-30-2006, 07:38 PM
his wife was getting harrassed before,




This is just sad.

edo783
01-30-2006, 08:09 PM
his wife was getting harrassed before, it could get worse if VY does great things wherever he goes (if not here) and carr keeps up his status qou..


Mmmm, all those classy UT fans helping out there I guess.

TexasDiehard
03-03-2006, 10:50 AM
This thread is just more evidence that Carr should be traded. Not even the extremist Carr lovers/Vince haters (ie Aggies) that rant endlessly and mindlessly on this board can make a credible argument that Carr is worth a draft pick higher than Vince will achieve even with all the beating that ESPN (who'll never forgive him for kicking their beloved USC's a**) and the other media knuckleheads are piling on Vince.

The simple fact is that the rest of the league is not buying the BS argument that the Texans OL/coaching is the reason Carr has sucked for 4 years. If that were the case, somewhere in four years we would have seen at least some flashes of brilliance from Carr which have never materialized. The reality is that Carr does not lead his team mates to overachieve with his work ethic and ability and the Texans cannot take Vince because no one else in the league believes Carr is worth a first round pick or top tier player or his contract and the Texans are unwilling to admit that they blew the Carr pick and all the money they have wasted on him since. It is no accident that no team in the NFL is beating down the Texan's door to trade for Carr.

Carr is already 26 and damaged goods and it will take years to rebuild the team to playoff level because of all the personnel screw ups that the Texans have made. Carr cannot lift a team to a higher level and he'll be 30 before the Texans can hope to contend with him at QB. Vince will be 22 in the fall and he is a proven superstar who has lead all his team mates and coaches to the highest championship level when no one but UT fans believed he could do it. His success pissed a lot of people off and that is why the haters on this board dog him, but he is the first guy I would want to lead my team and taking him is the best bet for the fastest track to the promised land for whatever team takes him. If Rothlesberger can do it in 2 years, Vince certainly can.

Vince has an unbelievable track record of proving his detractors to be wrong. He will do it again in the NFL and then all you haters can crawl back under your rocks and watch the Texans muddle along in endless mediocrity while Vince succeeds. No RB, no OL and no defensive player(s) the Texans can take will have the proven leadership/championship abilities that Vince offers or the related potential to accelerate the track to the playoffs.

The good news is that the further Vince falls in the draft, the sooner he will prove all you haters wrong. At least all you sanctimonious, love'em or leave'em navel gazing losers (ie Aggies) can cling to your fantasies that an Aggie miracle worker can magically convert Carr into a winner. Come on and rant some more nonsense! I have to laugh!

chuckm
03-03-2006, 10:55 AM
This thread is just more evidence that Carr should be traded. Not even the extremist Carr lovers/Vince haters (ie Aggies) that rant endlessly and mindlessly on this board can make a credible argument that Carr is worth a draft pick higher than Vince will achieve even with all the beating that ESPN (who'll never forgive him for kicking their beloved USC's a**) and the other media knuckleheads are piling on Vince.

The simple fact is that the rest of the league is not buying the BS argument that the Texans OL/coaching is the reason Carr has sucked for 4 years. If that were the case, somewhere in four years we would have seen at least some flashes of brilliance from Carr which have never materialized. The reality is that Carr does not lead his team mates to overachieve with his work ethic and ability and the Texans cannot take Vince because no one else in the league believes Carr is worth a first round pick or top tier player or his contract and the Texans are unwilling to admit that they blew the Carr pick and all the money they have wasted on him since. It is no accident that no team in the NFL is beating down the Texan's door to trade for Carr.

Carr is already 26 and damaged goods and it will take years to rebuild the team to playoff level because of all the personnel screw ups that the Texans have made. Carr cannot lift a team to a higher level and he'll be 30 before the Texans can hope to contend with him at QB. Vince will be 22 in the fall and he is a proven superstar who has lead all his team mates and coaches to the highest championship level when no one but UT fans believed he could do it. His success pissed a lot of people off and that is why the haters on this board dog him, but he is the first guy I would want to lead my team and taking him is the best bet for the fastest track to the promised land for whatever team takes him. If Rothlesberger can do it in 2 years, Vince certainly can.

Vince has an unbelievable track record of proving his detractors to be wrong. He will do it again in the NFL and then all you haters can crawl back under your rocks and watch the Texans muddle along in endless mediocrity while Vince succeeds. No RB, no OL and no defensive player(s) the Texans can take will have the proven leadership/championship abilities that Vince offers or the related potential to accelerate the track to the playoffs.

The good news is that the further Vince falls in the draft, the sooner he will prove all you haters wrong. At least all you sanctimonious, love'em or leave'em navel gazing losers (ie Aggies) can cling to your fantasies that an Aggie miracle worker can magically convert Carr into a winner. Come on and rant some more nonsense! I have to laugh!


congrats .... this could very possibly surpass your "McNair is the root of all our problems" rant from weeks back .....

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 11:12 AM
Come on and rant some more nonsense! I have to laugh!

Is this only ironic to me?

Runner
03-03-2006, 11:16 AM
Is this only ironic to me?

There is much more projection than reflection on this board.

Corrosion
03-03-2006, 11:19 AM
Vince will be 22 in the fall and he is a proven superstar


Im a Vince fan ..... But how many NFL games has he won ? how is he a proven superstar ?

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 11:22 AM
Al Saunders (the most sought after HC candidate other than Jimmy Johnson) could have done a lot for this team. This candidate brought a powerpoint presentation that showed and displayed Carr's inherent problems and shortcomings. It displayed his inability to feel pressure, look downfield while dropping back in the pocket and the ability to run through progressions. Of course all you losers that have a crush on Carr will blame his OL but this HC candidate basicallly came here with a pitch of 'Carr isnt going to take you anywhere and we need to retool' and he was not hired. I wonder why he wasnt hired?

You have asserted this several times. Do you have a source you can share?

Here is one which agrees Saunders would have been the best choice--funny they come to that conclusion by saying this:

The Houston Texans have an offense capable of being one of the most explosive in the league. They already feature a central core with quarterback David Carr, running back Domanick Davis, and receiver Andre Johnson. But though they feature a potentially offensive lethal force, they lack fundamentals - most notably, offensive blocking.

One of the prime reasons is that Carr had very little time to read and react to defensive schemes - not because of being a poor quarterback; rather, his blocking never held up. The Texans gave up a league-high 68 sacks, and the number of times that he was pressured out of the pocket ranks in the hundreds. The dearth of blocking negated anything that Carr or Davis could accomplish - neutralizing their one receiving playmaker, Johnson.

Link (http://www.profootballnet.com/content/view/821/59/)

chuckm
03-03-2006, 11:24 AM
why dont you just moderate him infantrycak, that is about all you are good for. your takes are below average and your love for Carr should force you to register as a sex offender.


yea I agree infantrycak ...... moderate them both ... how about a month ban?

jerek
03-03-2006, 11:25 AM
You have asserted this several times. Do you have a source you can share?

What good are sources when ****-for-wits fanaticism is more colorful? And the irony of the sex offender, comment ...

Vinny
03-03-2006, 11:26 AM
yeah...I think the honeymoon is over.

chuckm
03-03-2006, 11:29 AM
(awkward silence)

Corrosion
03-03-2006, 11:30 AM
There is a reason the guy is riding the pine ..... or did he finally get cut ?

HJam72
03-03-2006, 11:32 AM
He was 2-14 guys.....2-14...get that through your thick skulls


I don't know about you guys, but I don't believe Carr was 2-14. I don't care what records indicate, he couldn't have done that bad. Didn't they go .500 this year? I believe they did. Ya'll tell everybody Carr did fine and they went .500 this year. Ya gotta have faith in him. :)

I'm still waiting for that source on Al Saunders. Of course, if it's true, then I'll know that he's an ***** anyway, so why should I listen to him? :)

Vinny
03-03-2006, 11:33 AM
hoop dere it is. Next troll!

chuckm
03-03-2006, 11:34 AM
hoop dere it is. Next troll!


and it was just gettin good ..... :crying:

Texans86
03-03-2006, 11:35 AM
I've already wiped most of this past season from my mind. How many games did our defense lose in the fourth quarter again?

HJam72
03-03-2006, 11:36 AM
Um....what if we run out of trolls? :idonno:

HJam72
03-03-2006, 11:37 AM
I've already wiped most of this past season from my mind. How many games did our defense lose in the fourth quarter again?

None. The went .500 and never lost a game in the 4th quater. :)

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 11:37 AM
hoop dere it is. Next troll!

Wow that was the definition of sensitive--can't even joke around some folks.

chuckm
03-03-2006, 11:37 AM
I've already wiped most of this past season from my mind. How many games did our defense lose in the fourth quarter again?


nooooooooooooooooo do not bring it up ... it didn't happen .... it didn't happen .... it DID NOT happen .....

Runner
03-03-2006, 11:37 AM
This is why there are burn bans in times of drought. One spark and WHOOSH - conflagration. The board wasn't even all that active during this latest flash fire.

Texans86
03-03-2006, 11:42 AM
The two opposing factions finally face off. If you are for Carr...join the homer team. If you are against him...join the troll team.

Does that seem unfair to anyone else?

Corrosion
03-03-2006, 11:45 AM
The two opposing factions finally face off. If you are for Carr...join the homer team. If you are against him...join the troll team.

Does that seem unfair to anyone else?


Vinny is about as much a Carr homer as im an alien .......

chuckm
03-03-2006, 11:45 AM
The two opposing factions finally face off. If you are for Carr...join the homer team. If you are against him...join the troll team.

Does that seem unfair to anyone else?


Carr, Vince, Bush, ..... whomever .... if you use derogatory terms toward another poster, you're toast ... I suspect it wasn't his first time ...

HJam72
03-03-2006, 11:48 AM
The two opposing factions finally face off. If you are for Carr...join the homer team. If you are against him...join the troll team.

Does that seem unfair to anyone else?

Nope, not at all. :ok:

Vinny
03-03-2006, 11:49 AM
The two opposing factions finally face off. If you are for Carr...join the homer team. If you are against him...join the troll team.

Does that seem unfair to anyone else? It's in your imagination. We have a SIZEABLE Fresno fan base here who helps beat down our Carr detractors. They are like the Yao-only fans on clutchcity.net. Most of our mods seem to be in love with him too....I'm on the troll team myself I guess because I have a low opinion of his ability to play the position beyond being a prototype physically.

TEXANS84
03-03-2006, 11:51 AM
Most of our mods seem to be in love with him too....I'm on the troll team myself I guess.
I'm taking the Switzerland approach. I see three different scenario's that can benifit the team. So I guess its a good problem to have, for now.

HJam72
03-03-2006, 11:52 AM
I'm taking the Switzerland approach. I see three different scenario's that can benifit the team. So I guess its a good problem to have, for now.

Wimp. :)

Edit: I just realized I got a one word post through. Didn't think I could do that.

I see 3 different scenarios that would work too, actually: trade down for this, trade down for that, and trade down for the other thing.

Texans86
03-03-2006, 11:54 AM
Wimp. :)

Edit: I just realized I got a one word post through. Didn't think I could do that.

I'm sure it was a glitch in the matrix. It thought smiley was a word. That mistake will never be made again.

thunderkyss
03-03-2006, 11:55 AM
What makes me laugh about stuff like this is that Kubiak, Reeves, some scouts, Casserly and the 7 or more HC canidates disagree with you. Just kind of funny to me son.
I dont know who to believe?:rolleyes:


Personally, I think it's because it is no secret McNair is in Love with Carr. I'm sure the question was phrased like "David Carr will start for this team, do you still want the job??".

We'll see, I'll doubt David is on this team to start the 2008 season....

HJam72
03-03-2006, 11:55 AM
I'm sure it was a glitch in the matrix. It thought smiley was a word. That mistake will never be made again.

OK :)

Texans86
03-03-2006, 11:57 AM
Personally, I think it's because it is no secret McNair is in Love with Carr. I'm sure the question was phrased like "David Carr will start for this team, do you still want the job??".

We'll see, I'll doubt David is on this team to start the 2008 season....

Ouch, guy hasnt even taken a snap for the new coach yet, and he's already being benched by the fans three two years from now. I'm ready to sit back and just watch some football for awhile. I may even have to give in for some arena games. Never got into those very much, even though they are supposed to be more exciting.

Texans86
03-03-2006, 11:58 AM
OK :)

Touché.

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 12:01 PM
Most of our mods seem to be in love with him too....

Put me down in the not going to yell at the team for giving him another chance, but now he better make a stupendous improvement and quick or the proverbial fan is going to get dirty.

After having watched this off-season unfold, my opinion now is they should have let Carr walk, get a Kitna type and then draft Young, but that option left when they spent another $8 mil on Carr.

Did anyone else catch McClain's statement about Carr and sacks last week? If I heard him correctly, he said the Texans had reviewed the 68 sacks and attributed 20 (29%) to Carr. Funny, I remember someone who suggested a 25-30% rate of responsibility being repeatedly told that was way too low. Obviously a biased Carr homer.

Texans86
03-03-2006, 12:05 PM
Put me down in the not going to yell at the team for giving him another chance, but now he better make a stupendous improvement and quick or the proverbial fan is going to get dirty.

After having watched this off-season unfold, my opinion now is they should have let Carr walk, get a Kitna type and then draft Young, but that option left when they spent another $8 mil on Carr.

Did anyone else catch McClain's statement about Carr and sacks last week? If I heard him correctly, he said the Texans had reviewed the 68 sacks and attributed 20 (29%) to Carr. Funny, I remember someone who suggested a 25-30% rate of responsibility being repeatedly told that was way too low. Obviously a biased Carr homer.

We're on a new season now. I think everyone on the board thinks we've had seasons 3 seasons and we went mysteriously missing last year. Now we've found a team and some coaches for 2006. Can we just give up on giving any stats from the non existant season.

Vinny
03-03-2006, 12:09 PM
Did anyone else catch McClain's statement about Carr and sacks last week? If I heard him correctly, he said the Texans had reviewed the 68 sacks and attributed 20 (29%) to Carr. Funny, I remember someone who suggested a 25-30% rate of responsibility being repeatedly told that was way too low. Obviously a biased Carr homer.Edit
That's pretty much where you pegged it (the McClain figure), I had it a bit lower. Carr has 60 NFL starts. That's more than Bulger, Brees, Pennington and Leftwich. He may be a late bloomer...but much of what he lacks is in his intangables and his lack of feel for the pass rush and his poor vision. How much that can change...I donno....he can make all the passes though....but it takes more than that. I'll just have to deal with it if we don't draft another QB, but hes overpaid like crazy. Hard to debate that. When you have an average QB and pay him superstar money it hurts your team because you can't use that money to upgrade his cast.

jerek
03-03-2006, 12:09 PM
Put me down in the not going to yell at the team for giving him another chance, but now he better make a stupendous improvement and quick or the proverbial fan is going to get dirty.

After having watched this off-season unfold, my opinion now is they should have let Carr walk, get a Kitna type and then draft Young, but that option left when they spent another $8 mil on Carr.

Did anyone else catch McClain's statement about Carr and sacks last week? If I heard him correctly, he said the Texans had reviewed the 68 sacks and attributed 20 (29%) to Carr. Funny, I remember someone suggesting a 25-30% rate of responsibility being told that was way too low. Obviously a biased Carr homer.

Infantry, you are TURNING on us? :)

Call me a homer, call me whatever. I still say Carr is the guy to get the job done. I won't know until I see our team in action, but I think Kubiak and Co. are going to do big things around here, are going to make good personnel decisions and start calling good plays. Complain all you want, but the sacks we gave up repeatedly slaughtered our offensive drives this last year, and our defensive inability/ineptness was just unreal. It is simply hard to evaluate a quarterback when everything around him sucks as a whole, and I still take this up the ladder as being primarily the coaches' responsibility, more than the players.

I have coached and played sports at the college level and I have played for good teams and bad teams, and in football moreso than any sport, your coaching staff has to put you on the right page if things are going to get done. Good coaching causes players and teams to play above themselves, to create plays and moments that their talent alone could not have created. Bad coaching makes even the greatest combination of players and talents look worse.

All of that said, if these things start to improve, and our coaches are doing their jobs and the team responds but Carr is taking more than a his fair share of time to get on that page, then sure: I will start wondering if we shouldn't have punched his ticket and gone Leinart/Cutler/Young in this year's draft. I am convinced that Carr will succeed on this team - he will be at least good enough - ala Dilfer on the Ravens, Johnson on TB, Hasselbeck on the Seahawks, that kind of thing - and I think probably much better than that. But even he has to understand and realize (and I think that he does) that he is on pretty short notice right now.

And can I get a sack-fault recount? Too many Aggies in the room. ;-)

Texas
03-03-2006, 12:10 PM
a 7th round draft pick ( sarcasm)... But really i'd want like a 2nd rd draft pick with a good player thrown along.

Corrosion
03-03-2006, 12:11 PM
Put me down in the not going to yell at the team for giving him another chance, but now he better make a stupendous improvement and quick or the proverbial fan is going to get dirty.

After having watched this off-season unfold, my opinion now is they should have let Carr walk, get a Kitna type and then draft Young, but that option left when they spent another $8 mil on Carr.


I think this would have been the way to go myself ....but then they have to own up to the fact that Casserly/McNair/Capers blew it with the Carr pick.

The hardest thing for some people to do is admit they made a mistake or have a problem .... Kinda like the first step to recovery for an alcoholic is admiting they have a problem.

HJam72
03-03-2006, 12:11 PM
They did pay him too much. I haven't heard anyone say yet that he actually deserved that raise, unless maybe somebody said it was for taking the physical punishment. I really thought they were going to let him test the market for a while and then pay him something fair.

I don't believe that McNair would put his franchise at risk by insisting on keeping a QB that multiple, highly regarded coaches are saying is no good. Why would an owner spend all that money to put a team in place and then insist on that. Somebody, who is not being coerced, is telling McNair that Carr is a keeper....AND I SWEAR IT'S NOT ME. :)

TEXANS84
03-03-2006, 12:11 PM
Did anyone else catch McClain's statement about Carr and sacks last week? If I heard him correctly, he said the Texans had reviewed the 68 sacks and attributed 20 (29%) to Carr. Funny, I remember someone who suggested a 25-30% rate of responsibility being repeatedly told that was way too low. Obviously a biased Carr homer.

Watch the clip on Kubiak on the main page on NFL Network. He flat out stated that Carr was responsible for a signifigant amount of sacks. Heck, a 10 year old can realize that Carr has freak out problems.

Texans86
03-03-2006, 12:12 PM
That's pretty much where you pegged it (the McClain figure), I had it a bit lower. Carr has 60 NFL starts. That's more than Bulger, Brees, Pennington and Leftwich. He may be a late bloomer...but much of what he lacks is in his intangables and his lack of feel for the pass rush and his poor vision. How much that can change...I donno....he can make all the passes though....but it takes more than that. I'll just have to deal with it if we don't draft another QB, but hes overpaid like crazy. Hard to debate that. When you have an average QB and pay him superstar money it hurts your team because you can't use that money to upgrade his cast.

I don't know. I go numb after being hit in the leg too many times. Maybe Carr has just gone numb to the pressure, and he just needs to feeling back to his body....man, I can't wait another 4 months for football, when does training camp start?

HJam72
03-03-2006, 12:16 PM
Watch the clip on Kubiak on the main page on NFL Network. He flat out stated that Carr was responsible for a signifigant amount of sacks. Heck, a 10 year old can realize that Carr has freak out problems.

Well, then that 10 yr. old should try standing in the pocket. Geez, we gotta keep these kids in line. 'Specially the girls.

Vinny
03-03-2006, 12:17 PM
Watch the clip on Kubiak on the main page on NFL Network. He flat out stated that Carr was responsible for a signifigant amount of sacks. Heck, a 10 year old can realize that Carr has freak out problems.They were trying to get him to knock his linemen and he went straight to the Carr comment about how he is part of the problem.

jerek
03-03-2006, 12:19 PM
Watch the clip on Kubiak on the main page on NFL Network. He flat out stated that Carr was responsible for a signifigant amount of sacks. Heck, a 10 year old can realize that Carr has freak out problems.

Got a link? ... I looked and didn't come up with it, could be missing it tho.

Vinny
03-03-2006, 12:19 PM
its on our front page

Texans86
03-03-2006, 12:20 PM
I've got it...we sucked as a whole team. Only one player stood out in a good way. It's the off-season, the draft is another month away. Carr has lots of money. Our passing O-line was as bad as our passing defense. We lost 14 games. This all hurts my head. I just want to go back to bed and think it was all a dream.

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 12:22 PM
Watch the clip on Kubiak on the main page on NFL Network. He flat out stated that Carr was responsible for a signifigant amount of sacks. Heck, a 10 year old can realize that Carr has freak out problems.

What kills me is anyone who thinks there isn't plenty of blame to share. Good lord there were 68 sacks last year. Give Carr 20, 36 to the OL and 12 to the RB's and TE's. Everyone needs to improve.

Vinny
03-03-2006, 12:24 PM
What kills me is anyone who thinks there isn't plenty of blame to share. Good lord there were 68 sacks last year. Give Carr 20, 36 to the OL and 12 to the RB's and TE's. Everyone needs to improve.36 for the line is workable...sure they need to get better, but 20 to Carr? What other QB sacks himself at this kind of rate? I can only remember Rob Johnson as having this kind of rotten feel for the pocket.

HJam72
03-03-2006, 12:25 PM
What kills me is anyone who thinks there isn't plenty of blame to share. Good lord there were 68 sacks last year. Give Carr 20, 36 to the OL and 12 to the RB's and TE's. Everyone needs to improve.

I don't know. I'd give about 50 of them to Joe Pendry.

Corrosion
03-03-2006, 12:25 PM
I've got it...we sucked as a whole team. Only one player stood out in a good way. It's the off-season, the draft is another month away. Carr has lots of money. Our passing O-line was as bad as our passing defense. We lost 14 games. This all hurts my head. I just want to go back to bed and think it was all a dream.


"It was only just a dream" ...... If it was a bad dream .... I'd like to wake up in the Superbowl.


36 for the line is workable...sure they need to get better, but 20 to Carr? What other QB sacks himself at this kind of rate? I can only remember Rob Johnson as having this kind of rotten feel for the pocket.


Drew Deadslow .... Errrr Bledsoe and I dont think he's THAT BAD

nunusguy
03-03-2006, 12:27 PM
TheTexans' establishment (the Owner, GM, HC, "Consultant" Reeves), have made it clear Carr is their guy, therefor I'm supportive of him. So I guess that means that I indirectly agree with the view that Carr's problems or lack of effectiveness aren't caused by him as much as his teammates (or the lack of
contributing teammates as it were, mainly the OL). And had they released Carr, I would have supported that decision, figuring they concluded it was time to cut their losses.
I was hoping we'dget relief from the UT fans and their annoying pleas to draft VY after the Texans picked up Carr's option, but as I figured, their loyalties to UT are far deeper than their hope for the Texans success. It will be so nice
when VY is drafted by another franchise next month, as it should be quite a few yrs before he becomes eligible for FA.

Frills
03-03-2006, 12:35 PM
On some of the 20 sacks that were Carr's fault could be coverage sacks, when you have 1 threat at WR secondary schemes are fairly easy.

A few more could be attributed to shellshock. The man took a beating, time after time, you'd have to think even when he had time in the back of his mind he was waiting for the hit.

thunderkyss
03-03-2006, 12:37 PM
Ouch, guy hasnt even taken a snap for the new coach yet, and he's already being benched by the fans three two years from now. I'm ready to sit back and just watch some football for awhile. I may even have to give in for some arena games. Never got into those very much, even though they are supposed to be more exciting.

It's not that I'm benching him, I'm cutting him, trading him, basically, just letting him go. Look at the last page of posts in this thread...... looks like some people are finally admiting Carr has real problems. One of the most frustrating thing I've experienced on this board, is that it looked like no one wanted to put any blame at all on Carr...... "Carr's got problems, but I don't think we should draft a QB now" would have been nice to hear(read) every now and again, but that's not the way it's been. It's been "Carr did the best he could do behind our line" which is simply not the case. Carr played poorly, poor play of the offensive line, recievers dropping passess.......... all true. I think Carr could have played better. Might not have equalled more wins, but I still think he could have played like a starting NFL quarterback. Manning and Plummer got their butts handed to them several times this year, but they didn't look as bad as Carr has..... and I understand Carr is being teed off on, more on a regular basis......... I'm just tired of him looking like a first year player.

We are 4 years into his career, I personally don't think he can improve. All of his excuses are about to go away, I think by 2008, we won't have a choice, but to let him go.

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 12:39 PM
36 for the line is workable...sure they need to get better, but 20 to Carr? What other QB sacks himself at this kind of rate? I can only remember Rob Johnson as having this kind of rotten feel for the pocket.

Well IMO 36 for the OL isn't workable. That isn't even the NFL average for the team combined--32 is. Included in that are other QB's, TE's and RB's causing sacks as well. Plus, we shouldn't be shooting for average.

And the Kubiak quote was not that Carr caused a significant number of sacks, but that he had told Carr he was part of the problem also and all the parts had to improve. No I can't think of another QB sacking himself at this kind of rate--on the other hand there aren't a whole lot of QB's who have tried to run such a micky mouse O behind this type of OL either. In any event, it would be silly to believe anything other than Carr needs to improve vastly this year--same bottom line, different view of the severity of the problem.

thunderkyss
03-03-2006, 12:40 PM
On some of the 20 sacks that were Carr's fault could be coverage sacks, when you have 1 threat at WR secondary schemes are fairly easy.

A few more could be attributed to shellshock. The man took a beating, time after time, you'd have to think even when he had time in the back of his mind he was waiting for the hit.

I would only count the sacks where Carr ran into a defender, out of bounds behind the LOS, bad snaps, and intentional grounding on Carr. To me, a coverage sack would still fall to whoever couldn't hold their block.

thunderkyss
03-03-2006, 12:43 PM
And the Kubiak quote was not that Carr caused a significant number of sacks, but that he had told Carr he was part of the problem also and all the parts had to improve. No I can't think of another QB sacking himself at this kind of rate--on the other hand there aren't a whole lot of QB's who have tried to run such a micky mouse O behind this type of OL either. In any event, it would be silly to believe anything other than Carr needs to improve vastly this year--same bottom line, different view of the severity of the problem.

My memory is bad....... ok, downright poor. Kerry Collins and Capers in Carolina, was it as Mickey Mouse?? Why did Carolina let Capers go, and do you think that affected what he did here??

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 12:44 PM
It's not that I'm benching him, I'm cutting him, trading him, basically, just letting him go. Look at the last page of posts in this thread...... looks like some people are finally admiting Carr has real problems. One of the most frustrating thing I've experienced on this board, is that it looked like no one wanted to put any blame at all on Carr...... "Carr's got problems, but I don't think we should draft a QB now" would have been nice to hear(read) every now and again, but that's not the way it's been.

That just isn't accurate at all. Vinny, ArlingtonTexan, Ses, aj, plenty of other posters and yes I have repeatedly discussed the problems with Carr's game over the past few seasons. It isn't that Carr criticism doesn't exist, it is just that too many people ignore everything which isn't at a polar extreme--Carr is great and not at fault at all or Carr sucks.

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 12:50 PM
My memory is bad....... ok, downright poor. Kerry Collins and Capers in Carolina, was it as Mickey Mouse?? Why did Carolina let Capers go, and do you think that affected what he did here??

Vinny would be a better person to describe the Carolina O at that point but I suspect the answer will be similar but not as micky mouse. Take a look at the stats for Collins' 1st 4 years by the way.

The expansion draft rules were much more beneficial to the teams at that point. The Jags and Panthers were able to quickly field play-off contenders. Capers went with proven but old (and expensive) guys, particularly on D. They flared and then fizzled--bye bye Capers.

bigTEXan8
03-03-2006, 12:53 PM
There is a whole bunch of problems on this team, yet we center one player. Carr played lousy this year, along with 21 other players that started every other game. I'm as big as any other Carr :homer: as the next :homer:, but c'mon. There are problems that can be fixed, there are other problems that can't. I think that Carr's problems can be fixed, and that's why Carr won't be traded. JM:twocents:

Corrosion
03-03-2006, 12:54 PM
Vinny would be a better person to describe the Carolina O at that point but I suspect the answer will be similar but not as micky mouse. Take a look at the stats for Collins' 1st 4 year by the way.


Comparing the Texans and Panthers is like comparing apples and oranges .
Carolina was a predominately veteran team built thru FA aquisitions . Sure they wont quickly but had cap problems galore soon after ....where the Texans were younger less proven players and draft choices with a few vets thrown into the mix mainly on the D.

There is a whole bunch of problems on this team, yet we center one player. Carr played lousy this year, along with 21 other players that started every other game. I'm as big as any other Carr :homer: as the next :homer:, but c'mon. There are problems that can be fixed, there are other problems that can't. I think that Carr's problems can be fixed, and that's why Carr won't be traded. JM:twocents:


I think this is the sentiment of the orginization as a whole reguarding Carr .

thunderkyss
03-03-2006, 01:01 PM
That just isn't accurate at all. Vinny, ArlingtonTexan, Ses, aj, plenty of other posters and yes I have repeatedly discussed the problems with Carr's game over the past few seasons. It isn't that Carr criticism doesn't exist, it is just that too many people ignore everything which isn't at a polar extreme--Carr is great and not at fault at all or Carr sucks.


I know in my push for Vince, I've taken shots at, and slammed Carr much harder than I normally would..... maybe the Carr defenders were being as one sided as I was, for arguments sake.......


I'm hoping you're saying Carr will be better than Collins.......

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 01:10 PM
I'm hoping you're saying Carr will be better than Collins.......

Better be or the Texans just made a mistake paying that bonus. Just mentioned that so you could look at it.

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 01:15 PM
Well IMO 36 for the OL isn't workable. That isn't even the NFL average for the team combined--32 is. Included in that are other QB's, TE's and RB's causing sacks as well. Plus, we shouldn't be shooting for average.

As a follow up. There was 1 team last year that made the playoffs after having allowed more than 32 sacks.

Kaiser Toro
03-03-2006, 01:19 PM
The way I see it we will know within the first three games if the Kubiak effect can take hold on Carr and the offense. I still get a sense, a spidey one at that, that there are more problmes than execution by the unit. I could easily see this team quitting on Carr if he can't make plays. This is why I see us at 4-12 to 9-7 next year. Kubiak wanted him, extended him and now he owns the responsibility. Much like Colin Powell telling Bush, "you go into Baghdad and you own the responsibility."

Come to think of it there are plenty of parallels between Carr's extension and Iraq.

thunderkyss
03-03-2006, 01:21 PM
There is a whole bunch of problems on this team, yet we center one player. Carr played lousy this year, along with 21 other players that started every other game. I'm as big as any other Carr :homer: as the next :homer:, but c'mon. There are problems that can be fixed, there are other problems that can't. I think that Carr's problems can be fixed, and that's why Carr won't be traded. JM:twocents:

Just for the record, I've been loud about Vince, mainly because the draft Reggie crowd is so loud, and it seems more acceptable to trade down/draft Bush, than the trade down/draft Vince.

I don't know college players at all really, I don't know D'Angelow Williams from AJ hawk. But I know we don't need a RB #1 overall no matter how you slice it. If this were my draft, I'd try to trade down, and I think we can drop out of the top 5, and get what we need....... I'd be looking for a pass rushing DE with my highest pick, and interior Oline with my other.

Vinny
03-03-2006, 01:21 PM
As a follow up. There was 1 team last year that made the playoffs after having allowed more than 32 sacks.Workable as in something that is not an unfixable proposition....ie something 'workable' is fixable. Carr's self sacking tendencies will probably be harder to fix. I don’t see Carr’s high self sack rate as ‘workable’ as the lines figure.

infantrycak
03-03-2006, 01:35 PM
Workable as in something that is not an unfixable proposition....ie something 'workable' is fixable. Carr's self sacking tendencies will probably be harder to fix. I don’t see Carr’s high self sack rate as ‘workable’ as the lines figure.

The one thing I would have liked to have heard (maybe I missed it) was Carr and Kubiak mentioning they had talked to each other at length. JMO, but Kubiak prior to the interview and since has reviewed tons of Carr tape and barring this all being one of the best disinformation campaigns of all times believes Carr's problems are workable. I have quite a bit of faith in Kubiak's QB judgment but I wonder if he made a person judgment as well. Fact is there are lots of things in football which are generically coachable/workable--dancing in the backfield, throwing the ball away, catching with your hands instead of body--but the person has to be coachable in addition to the technique. Wish we had heard something about Kubiak having made that determination as well.

On the workable thing with Carr--my bet is he is always going to take some sacks that are his fault. He does not have the pocket presence Brady or Big Ben have. On the other hand, as you have made fun of, 8-12 of those 20 sacks are from running out of bounds at or behind (often recorded as a 0-2 yd loss) the LOS. Those can be coached and Carr already has a track record on that. 2002 you accurately pointed out that problem. 2003 and 2004 Carr was greatly improved in that regard. 2005 Carr regressed back to 2002 form on the issue.

jerek
03-03-2006, 01:37 PM
I would only count the sacks where Carr ran into a defender, out of bounds behind the LOS, bad snaps, and intentional grounding on Carr. To me, a coverage sack would still fall to whoever couldn't hold their block.

Many of the Carr sacks were him running out of bounds behind the line for a loss of a couple. Contrast that loss to him getting dropped for 8-10 yards when a LB blows through the hole untouched.

For sure, Carr should throw the ball away before he runs out of bounds, but again understand the difference: not only in quantity of sack-fault, but in the average of the field-position implications.

And TK, I have been saying that since Day 1. So have guys like Vinny and Infantry, KT, and others, it's just that we reach a different conclusion. I say Carr hasn't lived up to expectations, but is if nothing else demonstrably resilient and has made good plays/showed promise. Still has upside, not damaged goods, best years ahead of him, and will flourish under Kubes. Others merely see the same problems and draw a different conclusion, which is fine: but for all of the "Carr homerism," your boy Vince has received equally baseless acclaim x10 (and by that, I mean, unrealistic acclaim: guaranteed future HOFer, multiple SB winner, bla bla etc etc before he even takes a snap.)

Scott D
03-03-2006, 01:50 PM
I say this because of experience on my part.

I too would have agreed many years ago to get rid of Carr. Well, let's see now. He get's sacked, hurries the ball, runs out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage among other stuff. Yeah, let's can him. He's a worthless POS.

That was then, this is now. why did all of this happen? As far as I can see, it's a one man team. It takes everybody to get it right. Yes I do agree that Carr as well as other well known superstar QB's make mistakes but the other players are not giving Carr a chance to throw the ball which allows for interceptions and off target throws to occur.

Keep Carr for now and fix the areas around Carr.

Oh, if you do decide to replace Carr with another rookie, it could turn out to be the biggest mistake ever. Not saying rookies are bad, look at Ben of the Steelers. Why was that rookie QB so good? just look at the personnel around him. I bet you a $100.00 if that was Carr out there, he too could have won that game just as well.

Frills
03-03-2006, 01:53 PM
Last year Capers and crew were coaching scared.

They wanted to play a conservative close game, let the D dominate and have the offense to maintain games versus taking them over. They wanted last years team to be similar to Baltimore when they won it all. They just cut all the vet leadership on the D in the previous offseason.

Look at the way Carr produced under Palmer in year 3, he struggles early and Palmer gets whacked. Pendry becomes O-Coord, pure genius, he couldn't coach the line worth a damn so we promote him. The coaches go into a shell, never taking risks with playcalling on both sides of the ball. The aggressive 3-4 dissappears.

Bottom line, the coaches were friggin horrible. Now we can start where year 3 left off, Carr has a coach again, and this time its one who can help him take the offense to the next level.

thunderkyss
03-03-2006, 01:57 PM
Many of the Carr sacks were him running out of bounds behind the line for a loss of a couple. Contrast that loss to him getting dropped for 8-10 yards when a LB blows through the hole untouched.

For sure, Carr should throw the ball away before he runs out of bounds, but again understand the difference: not only in quantity of sack-fault, but in the average of the field-position implications. my biggest beef about him running out of bounds with the ball, is that he shouldn't be making these kind of mistakes this far into his career..... If he isn't going to chunk it, when the sideline is his best option, then how is he ever going to know when he needs to chunk it from the pocket?? How many times has he taken a sack, instead of giving someone a chance to make a play....

And TK, I have been saying that since Day 1. So have guys like Vinny and Infantry, KT, and others, it's just that we reach a different conclusion. I say Carr hasn't lived up to expectations, but is if nothing else demonstrably resilient and has made good plays/showed promise. Still has upside, not damaged goods, best years ahead of him, and will flourish under Kubes. Others merely see the same problems and draw a different conclusion, which is fine: but for all of the "Carr homerism," your boy Vince has received equally baseless acclaim x10 (and by that, I mean, unrealistic acclaim: guaranteed future HOFer, multiple SB winner, bla bla etc etc before he even takes a snap.)

True enough..... those guys makes it harder to make a good argument for Vince..........

Corrosion
03-03-2006, 02:00 PM
As far as Carr "Sacking Himself" .... I'd rather see him run out of bounds for a 2 yard loss than throwing a pick or getting blown up by a LB and fumbling ....Of course he could just throw the damn ball away .... But I think that he has lost confidence in many of those around him (his blockers in particular) and this has compounded his mistakes as well as the teams mistakes.

Nighthawk
03-03-2006, 02:00 PM
This thread, back from the dead!

I add this caveat:

We'd better have a QB on board this year that people think is capable of replacing Carr if he goes belly up this time.

thunderkyss
03-03-2006, 02:08 PM
That was then, this is now. why did all of this happen? As far as I can see, it's a one man team. It takes everybody to get it right. Yes I do agree that Carr as well as other well known superstar QB's make mistakes but the other players are not giving Carr a chance to throw the ball which allows for interceptions and off target throws to occur.

Keep Carr for now and fix the areas around Carr.


I don't think anyone has made an argument against Carr concerning any stat other than Sacks. I think most believe he will put up some major stats in the league, break a few records even. The worse thing we can say about Carr, is that he'll be a Drew Bledsoe like QB, which isn't really that bad.

thunderkyss
03-03-2006, 02:13 PM
Way, way off topic:


Hindsight is always 20/20...But looking back its still a bit fuzzy

Speak of Mutually assured destruction............ Nice Story tell it to reader's Digest........

Feeling Paranoid
True Enemy or False friend

Bloodstains on my hands
and I don't know where I've been
Oh.... I'm in trouble
for the things.. I haven't got to yet
I'm chomp'n at the bit and my palms R get'n wet




Sweat'n Bullllllllleeeetttsss.........

I've been trying to figure where I heard that for so long now..... it finally came to me.



cool.

thunderkyss
03-03-2006, 02:14 PM
This thread, back from the dead!

I add this caveat:

We'd better have a QB on board this year that people think is capable of replacing Carr if he goes belly up this time.


My thoughts exactly........ some folks have mentioned Kitna..... I used to be a fan, but I've lost interest...

Corrosion
03-03-2006, 02:17 PM
Way, way off topic:




Speak of Mutually assured destruction............ Nice Story tell it to reader's Digest........

Feeling Paranoid
True Enemy or False friend

Bloodstains on my hands
and I don't know where I've been
Oh.... I'm in trouble
for the things.. I haven't got to yet
I'm chomp'n at the bit and my palms R get'n wet




Sweat'n Bullllllllleeeetttsss.........

I've been trying to figure where I heard that for so long now..... it finally came to me.



cool.

You got it ..... I feel its pretty relevant around here .

texasguy346
03-03-2006, 03:08 PM
On the workable thing with Carr--my bet is he is always going to take some sacks that are his fault. He does not have the pocket presence Brady or Big Ben have. On the other hand, as you have made fun of, 8-12 of those 20 sacks are from running out of bounds at or behind (often recorded as a 0-2 yd loss) the LOS. Those can be coached and Carr already has a track record on that. 2002 you accurately pointed out that problem. 2003 and 2004 Carr was greatly improved in that regard. 2005 Carr regressed back to 2002 form on the issue.

I tend to agree with you on this point, and the improvement you mentioned from 2002 to the 2003 & 2004 seasons demonstrates that he can correct his mistakes. I'm of the mindset that if you fix the problem that's causing Carr to revert to those bad habits of running out of bounds behind the LOS, rushing through his read(s), etc. then you go a long ways in fixing some of the problems in his technique. Quite frankly I'd imagine it would be pretty hard to stay calm, cool, & collective in the pocket behind the Texans OLine. It's no secret that once you bang a QB up a little bit by applying pressure to him you can shake him off his game, and make him a little more weary. D-Coordinators sole purpose in life is to cause that sensation in a QB. Carr has played much of his career with that feeling being the norm instead of the seldom occurrence it is for most QBs.

While Carr certainly shares some of the blame, as pointed out by others, there is plenty to go around. I don't think I'd rank him up there with Rob Johnson (gag) type pocket awareness, but then again he's definately not in the same league as Tom Brady where awareness is concerned. I look to a veteran like Mark Brunell when I think of what Carr's potential awareness level could be behind an above average or decent OLine. Sure he'll make his share of mistakes from time to time, but more often than not he'll make the right decision.

bigTEXan8
03-03-2006, 04:24 PM
While Carr certainly shares some of the blame, as pointed out by others, there is plenty to go around. I don't think I'd rank him up there with Rob Johnson (gag) type pocket awareness, but then again he's definately not in the same league as Tom Brady where awareness is concerned. I look to a veteran like Mark Brunell when I think of what Carr's potential awareness level could be behind an above average or decent OLine. Sure he'll make his share of mistakes from time to time, but more often than not he'll make the right decision.

He's not as bad as Rob Johnson, but he was heading on the same path. Hopefully, Kubiak can turn him around. And you are right, Carr doesn't have close to Brady's awareness, but awareness is built on confidence. Brady has confidence in his line because his line hasn't failed him like Carr's has. The scheme also. Brady has faith in the scheme that Bellichick has. Carr knew it the scheme sucked, but yet he tried to work within it. JM:twocents:

Joe Texan
03-03-2006, 09:14 PM
What would it take to get you to trade Carr?


a first this year

half of the eight

a second or third next year

and a promise that he will never come back round here looking for a job

thegr8fan
03-05-2006, 11:57 PM
I don't think anyone has made an argument against Carr concerning any stat other than Sacks. I think most believe he will put up some major stats in the league, break a few records even.there have been plenty of arguments made regarding Carr's other deficiency's. Lack of pocket awareness, lack of ability to feel a rusher, indecisive, happy feet, etc. All of them, IMO, are accurate and truthfull assessments of Carrs lack of progress in 4 full seasons of play. These are things that rookies are excused for and Vets simply aren't. Why Carr continues to be excused for his detrimental play is beyond me. But hey, the Owner likes him and he stays, so Kubiak is stuck with him, IMHO.

In the NFL you take the hand dealt you and make the best of it you can. Kubiak knows that and is going to deal with Carr as best he can. Heck we might actually see an entire game of nothing but running plays if Carr stinks it up bad enough, and he will.

I am all for the idea that we had better have a competant, at least, backup on the roster to replace him this season if Carr does not show marked and significant improvement over his last season's poor playing ability. I don't care who it is. I have no qualms of putting a rookie or even Ragone in to replace him. It isn't like I think either one could do any WORSE than Carr at this point in his career.

thunderkyss
03-06-2006, 09:39 AM
there have been plenty of arguments made regarding Carr's other deficiency's. Lack of pocket awareness, lack of ability to feel a rusher, indecisive, happy feet, etc. All of them, IMO, are accurate and truthfull assessments of Carrs lack of progress in 4 full seasons of play. These are things that rookies are excused for and Vets simply aren't. Why Carr continues to be excused for his detrimental play is beyond me. But hey, the Owner likes him and he stays, so Kubiak is stuck with him, IMHO.


Hey,


I'm with you. I wrote that in response to someone justifying Carr's interceptions, and off target throws.... of course, blaming the offensive line. I'm saying, even the Carr haters, can see reasons for some of the things he does... interceptions, missing recievers, throwing behind, instead of ahead. None of those are the reasons we are critical of him, and uncomfortable with him & Tony Banks being our answer at QB. YOur post highlighted most of the faults we have with Carr. Whether he is on a better team, or a worse team, he shouldn't be makin these mistakes.

thegr8fan
03-06-2006, 02:47 PM
sorry I mis-read that then thunder.

I am just waiting for Carr to have some kind of competition. My bet would be that if a legit competitor were to show up in camp, Carr would be hard pressed to keep his starting position. And at least we fans would know that should Carr get hurt, or simply tick off Kubiak enough with mistake after mistake, that there was some kind of a backup QB to step in and provide a
CHANCE to win a game.

SESupergenius
03-06-2006, 04:48 PM
What would I take for Carr?

Well someone that I have confidence in to make this deal, and right now, we don't have that.

Everyone gets a clean slate with this new coaching staff, but not P-Buch, so far this coaching staff has said that Carr is the one. I'll take that considering they evaluated Plummer when he was with the Cards, a player very similar to Carr. To say that our offensive problems were on Carr makes me wonder about any validity in your arguments. It's been painfully obvious that the shuffling around of the offensive line and lack of cohesion has led to historic sack counts. Sure Carr is responsible for some, but realistically the system he been in wouldn't have let any QB blossom, we all saw what Banks could do, it wasn't any better.

AustinJB
03-06-2006, 05:28 PM
It's been painfully obvious that the shuffling around of the offensive line and lack of cohesion has led to historic sack counts. Sure Carr is responsible for some, but realistically the system he been in wouldn't have let any QB blossom, we all saw what Banks could do, it wasn't any better.

Wow, Banks (a career back-up) couldn't do any better than our starter. I'll also say that he didn't play WORSE either (although he did have very limited PT.) What does THAT say about our starting QB? I'll give you a hint: it's not good.

I've said it in other posts and I'll say it again here. Even if we correct our Oline, Carr will always be the type of QB that consistently makes bad decisions which leads to unnecessary sacks...he doesn't have the poise that is necessary for a successful QB...JMO.

TreWardTxn
03-06-2006, 06:11 PM
What would I take for Carr?

Well someone that I have confidence in to make this deal, and right now, we don't have that.

Everyone gets a clean slate with this new coaching staff, but not P-Buch, so far this coaching staff has said that Carr is the one. I'll take that considering they evaluated Plummer when he was with the Cards, a player very similar to Carr. To say that our offensive problems were on Carr makes me wonder about any validity in your arguments. It's been painfully obvious that the shuffling around of the offensive line and lack of cohesion has led to historic sack counts. Sure Carr is responsible for some, but realistically the system he been in wouldn't have let any QB blossom, we all saw what Banks could do, it wasn't any better.

Whoa, I'm gonna need you to expand upon that. How are they similar? Both had long, shaggy hair for awhile. Other than that I don't know. Plummer is still more athletic/better scrambler than Carr at 30 years old, he throws better on the run, and has a knack for avoiding sacks (and then making crazy dumb plays, something that was limited last year) I think Carr can do well in the same system, but he is much more a pocket passer than Jake is; stronger arm, more accurate from the pocket. Hopefully Kubiak can showcase his skills, but it will be a bit different than what he has done with Plummer. Dare I say it, but Carr's success will look more like that #7 guy's...(sacrilege)

Bubbajwp
03-06-2006, 06:53 PM
Carr is one of the better scrambling QBs in the league.

SESupergenius
03-06-2006, 07:17 PM
Wow, Banks (a career back-up) couldn't do any better than our starter. I'll also say that he didn't play WORSE either (although he did have very limited PT.) What does THAT say about our starting QB? I'll give you a hint: it's not good.

I've said it in other posts and I'll say it again here. Even if we correct our Oline, Carr will always be the type of QB that consistently makes bad decisions which leads to unnecessary sacks...he doesn't have the poise that is necessary for a successful QB...JMO.
Banks is a veteran starting QB that should have been able to right in and perform better, at least that was the thinking in some last year whom thought David Carr could do no good and wanted to see that Banks could show him up. Neither Steve Young nor Jake Plummer had the "poise" when they were with their respective bad teams, the Bucs and the Cards. We rank right up there in being that bad, and it isn't all the QB sorry to inform you.

SESupergenius
03-06-2006, 07:18 PM
Whoa, I'm gonna need you to expand upon that. How are they similar? Both had long, shaggy hair for awhile. Other than that I don't know. Plummer is still more athletic/better scrambler than Carr at 30 years old, he throws better on the run, and has a knack for avoiding sacks (and then making crazy dumb plays, something that was limited last year) I think Carr can do well in the same system, but he is much more a pocket passer than Jake is; stronger arm, more accurate from the pocket. Hopefully Kubiak can showcase his skills, but it will be a bit different than what he has done with Plummer. Dare I say it, but Carr's success will look more like that #7 guy's...(sacrilege)
Both have good athletic ability, both liked to scramble, and both have strong arms, both started out on crappy teams.