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David's Busted Carr
01-27-2006, 05:25 PM
It really seems like the Texans and Bob McNair in particular are REALLY stuck on David Carr. I read repeatedly where one of the main points during the interview process for the new coaching position was focused on David Carr. which I can understand b/c he is the current QB. But it almost seems like McNair was only looking for people who LIKED and was willing to work with Carr. And I'm willing to bet if they didn't like Carr or had any doubts about thim they were shown the door.

These thoughts were pretty much validated yesterday during the press conference and post press conference. I was really sort of taken back with Kubiak and McNair's comments during yesterday's press conference. I really thought they would side step all questions related to players & draft picks. Not only did they NOT do that, they basically told the whole world how they commited to David Carr. McNair went so far as to compare Carr with Brady and Peyton Manning. LOL!!!

I'm not saying Carr can't turn it around and I sure hope he does if he sticks around. And I am NOT a VY advocate either (in fact I prefer Bush). But it just seems to me the Texans should be a little more open minded about this situation and truley evaluate everything before they come out and make public comments like that. If nothing else be quiet so other teams are in suspense and might pay more for your #1 pick if you choose to trade it! Of course maybe they are pulling the wool over everyone's eyes and really do want VY. But I doubt Casserly is that smart. He has a hard enough time making the most simple decisions as it is....

Double Barrel
01-27-2006, 05:39 PM
Ask yourself this question: Would Kubiak, who has been offered numerous HC jobs in the NFL and college, put himself in a position where his head coaching career is based upon keeping one player?

Perhaps the fact that he is a former NFL QB who played behind a Hall of Famer, in addition to being an offensive "genius" as an OC, might have influenced Mr. McNair's decision. Who knows? Perhaps.

But then again, I think Mr. McNair wants to win, and no single player is going to be so high on his list that he's willing to sacrifice his billion dollar investment for said player.

Think about it....this is the NFL, where winning is all that really matters...do you honestly think that either Kubiak or McNair would put their futures into the hands of one player if they didn't think he had what it takes to succeed?

We've got to take the leap of blind faith, because our head coach believes in our QB. We either trust his judgement, or we don't. But Kubiak has a LOT more riding on his decision than we do, so why worry about it?

In Kubiak we trust! :texflag:

4Texans
01-27-2006, 05:40 PM
Word was that they asked every candidate they interviewed, if they felt Carr could be a successful QB in the NFL. Every candidate said "Yes, without a doubt".

I do think the Texans want to be successful with Carr. If VY hadn't declared for the draft, everyone would have been on board with drafting Bush.

Nighthawk
01-27-2006, 05:50 PM
Ask yourself this question: Would Kubiak, who has been offered numerous HC jobs in the NFL and college, put himself in a position where his head coaching career is based upon keeping one player?

Perhaps the fact that he is a former NFL QB who played behind a Hall of Famer, in addition to being an offensive "genius" as an OC, might have influenced Mr. McNair's decision. Who knows? Perhaps.

But then again, I think Mr. McNair wants to win, and no single player is going to be so high on his list that he's willing to sacrifice his billion dollar investment for said player.

Think about it....this is the NFL, where winning is all that really matters...do you honestly think that either Kubiak or McNair would put their futures into the hands of one player if they didn't think he had what it takes to succeed?

We've got to take the leap of blind faith, because our head coach believes in our QB. We either trust his judgement, or we don't. But Kubiak has a LOT more riding on his decision than we do, so why worry about it?

In Kubiak we trust! :texflag:

Pardon the interruption of your little love fest, but perhaps a couple of facts might fit in here. Kubiak was a QB in the sense that he carried a clipboard for 9 years in the pros. He's a genius as an OC insofar as he worked for Mike Shanahan, a genius who actually designed and ran the offense. The NFL head coaching jobs are impossibly hard to get , so if the quid pro quo for getting the job is keeping Carr, then most coaches would keep Carr, thinking that he can't be THAT bad. Finally, McNair, like Casserly, has already invested a lot in Carr. He's wed to the good family man part, too, apparently. McNair may not be a genius where football is concerned.

TexansFanatic
01-27-2006, 05:51 PM
If VY hadn't declared for the draft, everyone would have been on board with drafting Bush.

If a Ferrari hadn't declared for the draft, everyone would have been on board with drafting a Cadillac.

Jack Bauer
01-27-2006, 05:54 PM
Ask yourself this question: Would Kubiak, who has been offered numerous HC jobs in the NFL and college, put himself in a position where his head coaching career is based upon keeping one player?

Perhaps the fact that he is a former NFL QB who played behind a Hall of Famer, in addition to being an offensive "genius" as an OC, might have influenced Mr. McNair's decision. Who knows? Perhaps.

But then again, I think Mr. McNair wants to win, and no single player is going to be so high on his list that he's willing to sacrifice his billion dollar investment for said player.

Think about it....this is the NFL, where winning is all that really matters...do you honestly think that either Kubiak or McNair would put their futures into the hands of one player if they didn't think he had what it takes to succeed?

We've got to take the leap of blind faith, because our head coach believes in our QB. We either trust his judgement, or we don't. But Kubiak has a LOT more riding on his decision than we do, so why worry about it?

In Kubiak we trust! :texflag:


Despite what Nighthawk believes, you are correct.

Jack Bauer
01-27-2006, 05:55 PM
Ask yourself this question: Would Kubiak, who has been offered numerous HC jobs in the NFL and college, put himself in a position where his head coaching career is based upon keeping one player?

Perhaps the fact that he is a former NFL QB who played behind a Hall of Famer, in addition to being an offensive "genius" as an OC, might have influenced Mr. McNair's decision. Who knows? Perhaps.

But then again, I think Mr. McNair wants to win, and no single player is going to be so high on his list that he's willing to sacrifice his billion dollar investment for said player.

Think about it....this is the NFL, where winning is all that really matters...do you honestly think that either Kubiak or McNair would put their futures into the hands of one player if they didn't think he had what it takes to succeed?

We've got to take the leap of blind faith, because our head coach believes in our QB. We either trust his judgement, or we don't. But Kubiak has a LOT more riding on his decision than we do, so why worry about it?

In Kubiak we trust! :texflag:

I agree with everything you said. Thanks for typing it for me! ;)

Hookem Horns
01-27-2006, 05:57 PM
And I'm willing to bet if they didn't like Carr or had any doubts about thim they were shown the door.



Why do you think ALL the coaches said they could work with Carr and he had potential? Would you honestly expect any coach being interviewed to say "No, I don't think I can ever make Carr a great QB." If they did, that would be a stupid thing to say.

Double Barrel
01-27-2006, 05:58 PM
Pardon the interruption of your little love fest, but perhaps a couple of facts might fit in here. Kubiak was a QB in the sense that he carried a clipboard for 9 years in the pros. He's a genius as an OC insofar as he worked for Mike Shanahan, a genius who actually designed and ran the offense.

"Lovefest"? :confused:

Before you spew any more ignorant attempts to troll me, you might want to verify your information.

Kubiak designed and called the offensive plays in Denver according to Coach Shanahan.

Get your "facts" straight next time. Otherwise you're just another worthless troll around here. :howdy:

profan
01-27-2006, 06:03 PM
There is going to be alot of pressure on carr next year and the fans will have little patience. This will be increased if vince young starts lighting up. I personally feel that McNair's feeling guilty about screwing carr up and feels obligated to keep him. Carr will be given the starting job again. I just hope it all works out, because not only are we passing up one of the greatest talents coming out of college in a long time, we will be allowing this talent to go to the opponent. Bud is licking his chops.

Kaiser Toro
01-27-2006, 06:07 PM
I thought that would be the case months ago and would be a concern with quality candidates. I got lambasted for it. However, I think getting Kubiak puts DC on notice, but what bugs me is that it will kill us if that guy does not pan out or gets injured.

What it boils down to is I that I just don't have that feeling in the gut about Carr likes other do given the fiscal impact of his contract on the cap.

run-david-run
01-27-2006, 06:16 PM
As has been posted above, I would trust the opinion of all the coaches that interviewed for the job, all of whom said Carr could be a great QB, above most on this board. Meanwhile, its becoming disgusting how people try to drag down people like Kubiak, questioning his credentials and skills because he supports Carr. Just because Gary beleives in Carr does not mean he is overrated or a coat-tailler, riding on John Elway, Steve Young and Mike Shanahan's sucecess...

bayshorebevo
01-27-2006, 06:33 PM
"Word was that they asked every candidate they interviewed, if they felt Carr could be a successful QB in the NFL. Every candidate said "Yes, without a doubt"."

When I read in the paper McNair & Casserly were saying that to prove the point about keeping Carr, my first thought was "right, a guy that wants a job as head coach is going to say he can't win with Carr. if he says no, he's calling everybody a fool for drafting him. He would be committing professional suicide. I'm sure anybody applying for HC would have to answer that question the way McNair & Casserly want to hear it if they planned on getting hired.

David has a strong arm and he's smart. He's also a good guy. Last year he was horrible as a QB & took a couple steps backwards. He needs to develop leadership qualities, stop running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage and get more confidence. He is capable of that, it's up to him to get it done.

Nighthawk
01-27-2006, 07:09 PM
"Lovefest"? :confused:

Before you spew any more ignorant attempts to troll me, you might want to verify your information.

Kubiak designed and called the offensive plays in Denver according to Coach Shanahan.

Get your "facts" straight next time. Otherwise you're just another worthless troll around here. :howdy:

Sorry, pal, despite what Shanahan said when supporting Kubiak's job search, it is well known in the league and to anybody watching Denver play who is in control of the offense. And I'm not tolling you, I'm simply trying to provide a reality check. Kubiak may be an offensive genius, but he's never had the opportunity to show it on his own, so it shouldn't be slapped around as if it were a credential. Ditto his "playing" in the NFL. He's been a good assistant on a good club working for a control freak offensive genius.

Double Barrel
01-27-2006, 07:13 PM
"Word was that they asked every candidate they interviewed, if they felt Carr could be a successful QB in the NFL. Every candidate said "Yes, without a doubt"."

I'd honestly like a valid source for that quote, and not just some Chronicle hack trying to speculate up a story. I'd really like verification from a legit Texans source that this was part of the interview and part of the final decision making process.

Charlie Palillo said this story was fabricated, because no organization will base their HC decision on one player. Matter-of-fact, I remember Casserly shooting this one down on a radio interview, as well.

Sure, they probably asked about Carr, just like they probably asked about a number of Texans players. But basing the decision solely on the "Carr-question" just makes no sense from a solid business perspective. None of it is logical, which is what sets my alarm bells off.

Double Barrel
01-27-2006, 07:15 PM
Sorry, pal, despite what Shanahan said when supporting Kubiak's job search, it is well known in the league and to anybody watching Denver play who is in control of the offense. And I'm not tolling you, I'm simply trying to provide a reality check. Kubiak may be an offensive genius, but he's never had the opportunity to show it on his own, so it shouldn't be slapped around as if it were a credential. Ditto his "playing" in the NFL. He's been a good assistant on a good club working for a control freak offensive genius.

Dude, go to the Broncos website. Kubiak has been calling 98% of the offensive play for YEARS. yeah, I'm sure the entire Broncos organization is on in this little conspiracy of yours.

You can also verify this information from a variety of news sources.

But nooooooo, Nighthawk has the inside information. Whatever. :ok:

Go hate somewhere else. It's not working here.

dtran04
01-27-2006, 07:17 PM
Is it just me or does the board have an "ESPN board" feel to it now? jeez......

Double Barrel
01-27-2006, 07:19 PM
Sorry, pal, despite what Shanahan said when supporting Kubiak's job search, it is well known in the league and to anybody watching Denver play who is in control of the offense. And I'm not tolling you, I'm simply trying to provide a reality check.

Then here is YOUR reality check (and this one won't bounce!):

Early in the week, Spurrier resorted to asking advice from another head coach, Denver Broncosí Mike Shanahan. Spurrier, portrayed by many as arrogant when it comes to his offense, wanted to know how Shanahan handled play-calling duties with Broncosí offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak.

When Shanahan told Spurrier that the Broncos immediately won two Super Bowls when Kubiak took over calling plays, the second-year Redskinsí coach didnít need any more convincing.

Source - dated November 11, 2003
(http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinchesterStar/031111/Sports_coles.asp)

Want more? I've got lots of REAL news sources to quote from, not just the voices in your head. :D

Bronco Texan
01-27-2006, 07:27 PM
Being the biggest Denver fan here I feel I should step in. Look Koobs wouldn't of taken this job if he didn't feel he was the difference maker. He wouldn't take it if he wasn't the one running things. He had a good thing going in Denver and was in no hurry to take a team if he didn't feel it was the right situation. Plus Koobs was responsible for implementing the game plan every week. He did call plays along with Shanahan. I believe they had a partnership in this duties, but Mike trusted Gary so whatever Gary brought up Mike knew it was the best for the team.

4Texans
01-27-2006, 08:14 PM
I'd honestly like a valid source for that quote, and not just some Chronicle hack trying to speculate up a story. I'd really like verification from a legit Texans source that this was part of the interview and part of the final decision making process.

Charlie Palillo said this story was fabricated, because no organization will base their HC decision on one player. Matter-of-fact, I remember Casserly shooting this one down on a radio interview, as well.

Sure, they probably asked about Carr, just like they probably asked about a number of Texans players. But basing the decision solely on the "Carr-question" just makes no sense from a solid business perspective. None of it is logical, which is what sets my alarm bells off.

The thread asked if the coaching decision was based on Carr. It was not a condition. I only said the question was asked of each candidate, as I'm sure they asked of other players. The Texans have a lot invested in Carr. He was the overall #1 pick, but they're not going to make their coaching decision on Carr. And it's irrelevant anyway, if each candidate says Carr can be successful in the NFL.

I would love to see the transcript of the interviews, so someone please post them when they're available. Maybe Charlie Palillo has them.

NFLforher
01-27-2006, 09:55 PM
Dude, go to the Broncos website. Kubiak has been calling 98% of the offensive play for YEARS. yeah, I'm sure the entire Broncos organization is on in this little conspiracy of yours.

You can also verify this information from a variety of news sources.

But nooooooo, Nighthawk has the inside information. Whatever. :ok:

Go hate somewhere else. It's not working here.


Nighthawk has nothing. I mean that.

Lucky
01-28-2006, 01:01 AM
It really seems like the Texans and Bob McNair in particular are REALLY stuck on David Carr. I read repeatedly where one of the main points during the interview process for the new coaching position was focused on David Carr. which I can understand b/c he is the current QB. But it almost seems like McNair was only looking for people who LIKED and was willing to work with Carr. And I'm willing to bet if they didn't like Carr or had any doubts about thim they were shown the door.
I agree with your point. McNair was looking for someone who could work with what the Texans have. He wasn't interested in a coach who felt he needed to blow this roster up, Carr included. "Hey you guys screwed up. I can't coach these guys, let's start over", is not what McNair wanted to hear.

Now that doesn't mean that Kubiak and the other coaches were bearing false witness, Believe it or not, there are plenty of NFL coaches & scouts who feel that David Carr is an outstanding talent and can be successful in the NFL. Not all, though. Just as there are plenty of NFL coaches & scouts who feel that Vince Young is an outstanding talent and can be successful in the NFL. Not all. Many teams would like to have either one. Kubiak, Linehan, Cameron, Saunders...some of the league's top offensive minds wanted to come to Houston and work with David Carr. Maybe they see something in him that you're missing?

Nighthawk
01-28-2006, 01:25 AM
Then here is YOUR reality check (and this one won't bounce!):


[URL="http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinchesterStar/031111/Sports_coles.asp"]Source - dated November 11, 2003

Yeah, OK. You're right. Kubiak is the second coming. That's why he's been interviewed to death these last several years. Shanahan is just stooge who stands in front of the cameras.

On the other hand, maybe Kubiak was a good assistant and friend of Shanahan's and contributed to the program in Denver without, like, totally controlling the offense and completely running roughshod over Shanahan and the offense Shanahan, uh, invented.

You make the call, Bilbo.

edo783
01-28-2006, 01:57 AM
Yeah, OK. You're right. Kubiak is the second coming. That's why he's been interviewed to death these last several years. Shanahan is just stooge who stands in front of the cameras.

On the other hand, maybe Kubiak was a good assistant and friend of Shanahan's and contributed to the program in Denver without, like, totally controlling the offense and completely running roughshod over Shanahan and the offense Shanahan, uh, invented.

You make the call, Bilbo.

Are you a member of the flat earth society?

Double Barrel
01-28-2006, 11:45 AM
Yeah, OK. You're right. Kubiak is the second coming. That's why he's been interviewed to death these last several years. Shanahan is just stooge who stands in front of the cameras.

On the other hand, maybe Kubiak was a good assistant and friend of Shanahan's and contributed to the program in Denver without, like, totally controlling the offense and completely running roughshod over Shanahan and the offense Shanahan, uh, invented.

You make the call, Bilbo.

Look, Skippy, your knack for hyperbole and assumption aside, I never said anyone was the "second coming". I never said Shanahan was a "stooge", either. These are words you choose to hide behind.

I've got nothing but great respect for Coach Shanahan, and like any great head coach, their coordinators often make great head coaches, as well. NFL history is ripe with examples, from the coaches that were under Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry, to the coaches under Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick. This is the way pro sports works, and I'd figure you'd have more understanding of these things at your age. :ok:

But instead, you've offered nothing but lame rebuttals and mild speculation, even in the face of factual evidence. Nothing like a person that refuses to accept reality, so I guess in your mind you are right.

All I'm saying is give the new coach a chance before you decide to dislike him. Are you another one of those "fans" that plans on deserting the team because you don't get your way? You come across that way.

It looks like you're the one that needs to make the call, "pal".

vtech9
01-28-2006, 12:27 PM
Word was that they asked every candidate they interviewed, if they felt Carr could be a successful QB in the NFL. Every candidate said "Yes, without a doubt".

I do think the Texans want to be successful with Carr. If VY hadn't declared for the draft, everyone would have been on board with drafting Bush.
You're wrong there. I didn't want Bush before Vince declared and I still don't want Bush, and I grew up a USC fan. If Bush could be had in the 2nd round, then I would take him, but not in the top of the 1st round. I have the sinking feeling that Bush will end up being just like Tony Hollings, a speed back that wasn't that great against the speed of NFL defenses. Hollings had almost 700 yards rushing and 11 TDs in 4 games. People were saying that he would have won the heisman if he wouldn't have hurt his knee. What has he done since joining the Texans? I just have the sinking feeling that Bush will be the same.

jmerog
01-28-2006, 01:04 PM
Ask yourself this question: Would Kubiak, who has been offered numerous HC jobs in the NFL and college, put himself in a position where his head coaching career is based upon keeping one player?

Perhaps the fact that he is a former NFL QB who played behind a Hall of Famer, in addition to being an offensive "genius" as an OC, might have influenced Mr. McNair's decision. Who knows? Perhaps.

But then again, I think Mr. McNair wants to win, and no single player is going to be so high on his list that he's willing to sacrifice his billion dollar investment for said player.

Think about it....this is the NFL, where winning is all that really matters...do you honestly think that either Kubiak or McNair would put their futures into the hands of one player if they didn't think he had what it takes to succeed?

We've got to take the leap of blind faith, because our head coach believes in our QB. We either trust his judgement, or we don't. But Kubiak has a LOT more riding on his decision than we do, so why worry about it?

In Kubiak we trust! :texflag:
Great Post. Go Kubes Go! Lead the charge, fix the carr, build an o-line

LoneStarState
01-28-2006, 03:31 PM
Why do you think ALL the coaches said they could work with Carr and he had potential? Would you honestly expect any coach being interviewed to say "No, I don't think I can ever make Carr a great QB." If they did, that would be a stupid thing to say.
Are you serious? Do you lie at your job interviews? I'm sure those interviewed gave their honest assessment of the entire team including Carr. Seeing that coaches are working basically on a year-to-year contract, I would think they would want the best talent around them. If Carr was the problem, I'm sure an honest assessment would be given.

Wolf
01-28-2006, 03:45 PM
I think we are forgetting something Reeves isn't a coach for us and he has been "evaluating" our talent also.

swtbound07
01-28-2006, 04:00 PM
Word was that they asked every candidate they interviewed, if they felt Carr could be a successful QB in the NFL. Every candidate said "Yes, without a doubt".

I do think the Texans want to be successful with Carr. If VY hadn't declared for the draft, everyone would have been on board with drafting Bush.



do a little research, read my backdated posts...i havent wanted bush from the jump, wanted to trade down for d-brick when vince wasnt an option....bush=bust in my head, always has.

bayshorebevo
01-30-2006, 10:17 PM
if what mr mcnair is serious about what he has been saying, the answer is probably yes. obviously, saying coach kubiak has the 100% decision keeps the backlash away from the owner.

bigTEXan8
01-30-2006, 11:08 PM
I highly doubt working with Carr was a requirement. I think that most people realize (the ones in the NFL) that know that Carr has a better chance at performing in a system that isn't a joke and a o-line that knows how to block. We've all seen Carr perform, it's whether or not you, as a fan, want to believe he can do it on a regular basis. I think that, Kubiak realizes Carr is a solid, capable QB, that can perform in the NFL, and that's why he supports him so much.

jerek
01-31-2006, 12:01 AM
Look, Skippy, your knack for hyperbole and assumption aside, I never said anyone was the "second coming". I never said Shanahan was a "stooge", either. These are words you choose to hide behind.

I've got nothing but great respect for Coach Shanahan, and like any great head coach, their coordinators often make great head coaches, as well. NFL history is ripe with examples, from the coaches that were under Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry, to the coaches under Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick. This is the way pro sports works, and I'd figure you'd have more understanding of these things at your age. :ok:

But instead, you've offered nothing but lame rebuttals and mild speculation, even in the face of factual evidence. Nothing like a person that refuses to accept reality, so I guess in your mind you are right.

All I'm saying is give the new coach a chance before you decide to dislike him. Are you another one of those "fans" that plans on deserting the team because you don't get your way? You come across that way.

It looks like you're the one that needs to make the call, "pal".

Mack Brown tells the Rose Bowl cameras that Vince turned water to wine at his house party last week, and guys like Nighthawk get busy writing a new gospel. Meanwhile, Shanahan is quoted in countless news clippings and press conferences as stating Kubiak was his playcaller, and they are all engaged in some sort of ongoing conspiracy to butter David Carr's game up?

I've read some pretty fat stretches on this board, but this is taking it a little far.

TreWardTxn
01-31-2006, 12:26 AM
Sorry, pal, despite what Shanahan said when supporting Kubiak's job search, it is well known in the league and to anybody watching Denver play who is in control of the offense. And I'm not tolling you, I'm simply trying to provide a reality check. Kubiak may be an offensive genius, but he's never had the opportunity to show it on his own, so it shouldn't be slapped around as if it were a credential. Ditto his "playing" in the NFL. He's been a good assistant on a good club working for a control freak offensive genius.

Look man, Shanhan himself was part of the offensive system created by "genius" Bill Walsh back in San Francisco. Although he wasn't the coach, Walsh was still involved in the organization in those days and no one talks about how Shanny was just some lacky for him. The fact of the matter is, Gary and Mike both shared gameplanning and playcalling responsibilities, he is far from some leach, cashing in on the Broncos success.

vtech9
01-31-2006, 12:34 AM
Mack Brown tells the Rose Bowl cameras that Vince turned water to wine at his house party last week, and guys like Nighthawk get busy writing a new gospel. Meanwhile, Shanahan is quoted in countless news clippings and press conferences as stating Kubiak was his playcaller, and they are all engaged in some sort of ongoing conspiracy to butter David Carr's game up?

I've read some pretty fat stretches on this board, but this is taking it a little far.
I think where people are getting their arguments from is from watching Denver games, especially the playoffs. It genuinely looked like Shannahan would look at his play card and then make the call. Was he calling plays in to the offense? I don't know. He could have been checking out the play that Kubiak called and then conferring with Kubiak in the booth about possibilities for the next play depending on the outcome of the called play. We don't know. We aren't privy to what was said by whom, at what time, to whom, so all we can do is speculate. In Nighthawk's defense, when you watch Shanahan on the sidelines when the Broncos play, it does look like Shanahan is the one calling the plays whether he is or not.

Nighthawk
01-31-2006, 01:27 AM
I think where people are getting their arguments from is from watching Denver games, especially the playoffs. It genuinely looked like Shannahan would look at his play card and then make the call. Was he calling plays in to the offense? I don't know. He could have been checking out the play that Kubiak called and then conferring with Kubiak in the booth about possibilities for the next play depending on the outcome of the called play. We don't know. We aren't privy to what was said by whom, at what time, to whom, so all we can do is speculate. In Nighthawk's defense, when you watch Shanahan on the sidelines when the Broncos play, it does look like Shanahan is the one calling the plays whether he is or not.

This is an odd thread. For the record, I only suggested maybe Kubiak was an assistant to a coach who has the reputation of being very hands-on and control-oriented. I extrapolated from the latter that at Denver the assistants _are_ assistants.

I've also noticed that it is not uncommon for people in positions of responsibility to politely overcredit subordinates for work they (the supervisors) actually do.

I have no doubt Kubiak was an important subordinate in Denver. To think that he was instrumental in getting his super bowl rings might be overstating his role. If you want to tone down the hero rhetoric to (a) He was there, (b) He did his job, (c) He got the rings, why, I'll gladly agree!

And yes, in every Denver game I've seen this year (several) it APPEARS that Shanahan is calling the plays. Maybe Kubiak suggests the plays from the upper deck, or maybe, as has been suggested, Shanahan is merely parroting the plays Kubiak calls, or maybe they had some other arrangement. DOn't know. I do know that in plays where Shanahan was miked he appears to be giving direct instruction IN ADDITION TO THE PLAY CALL to his QB--stuff like the now oft-quoted, "if it's not there throw it away" in one of the playoff games.

powerfuldragon
01-31-2006, 10:28 AM
look, if carr was drafted as a Franchise Quarterback, then there's no sense in going against that and drafting a superb new QB.

HoustonFrog
01-31-2006, 11:36 AM
I'll preface this by saying that I am not a huge Carr fan but I'll trust what is going on out there to an extent. With that said, IMHO:

1) What candidate is going to look them in the eye and say, "Carr was a waste of your money and he might be scarred from his first 4 years. Here is what I'd do....?"No one. It is like any job interview that any of us have and you let them know what you can do and how you can do it without upsetting the system they have in place. You tell them how you can improve upon what they have already established. If McNair and staff think they need to keep Carr, then you are going to tell him how you can make life with Carr better. Simple.

2) My main concern, without being a naysayer, is that we are simply a lower level team in terms of talent. That is obvious at 2-14. So you look at who gathered the talent and that is Casserly and the old coaches. Well McNair thought they were the bomb, so how much "football" sense does he have or does he rely too much on loyalty to a player or coach or GM?This has always been a worry of mine. Yes he wants to win but he also has a business background, not a football background and he is trusting some shaky talent evaluators in my book. Hopefully Reeves/Kubiak can rectify it.

3) I'm lost on Carr. I don't want to get into a fight concerning his leadership, skills, etc. If he is good, then I will be extremely happy. My problem is we are at a crossroads and we are about to go full steam ahead with a new coach, new #1 pick, etc and put a bunch of money into a guy who may be only what we have seen for 4 years. That would be even a bigger letdown then taking the wrong guy #1 IMHO.

infantrycak
01-31-2006, 11:55 AM
1) What candidate is going to look them in the eye and say, "Carr was a waste of your money and he might be scarred from his first 4 years. Here is what I'd do....?"No one. It is like any job interview that any of us have and you let them know what you can do and how you can do it without upsetting the system they have in place. You tell them how you can improve upon what they have already established. If McNair and staff think they need to keep Carr, then you are going to tell him how you can make life with Carr better. Simple.

I don't agree with this at all. This isn't a question like can you use WordPerfect?--why of course. It is a question which is going to possibly determine the success or failure of the club and because of that whether the coach is retained. No one wants to get fired after 3 or 4 years. If Kubiack or another candidate didn't think they could get the job done and hold onto there job then they would be stupid to say Carr is just fine. Look around the league at QB changes and drafts with new head coaches--it isn't rare and you can bet the coaches didn't tell all the owners--no everything is hunky dory.

jerek
01-31-2006, 11:56 AM
I'll preface this by saying that I am not a huge Carr fan but I'll trust what is going on out there to an extent. With that said, IMHO:

1) What candidate is going to look them in the eye and say, "Carr was a waste of your money and he might be scarred from his first 4 years. Here is what I'd do....?"No one. It is like any job interview that any of us have and you let them know what you can do and how you can do it without upsetting the system they have in place. You tell them how you can improve upon what they have already established. If McNair and staff think they need to keep Carr, then you are going to tell him how you can make life with Carr better. Simple.

2) My main concern, without being a naysayer, is that we are simply a lower level team in terms of talent. That is obvious at 2-14. So you look at who gathered the talent and that is Casserly and the old coaches. Well McNair thought they were the bomb, so how much "football" sense does he have or does he rely too much on loyalty to a player or coach or GM?This has always been a worry of mine. Yes he wants to win but he also has a business background, not a football background and he is trusting some shaky talent evaluators in my book. Hopefully Reeves/Kubiak can rectify it.

3) I'm lost on Carr. I don't want to get into a fight concerning his leadership, skills, etc. If he is good, then I will be extremely happy. My problem is we are at a crossroads and we are about to go full steam ahead with a new coach, new #1 pick, etc and put a bunch of money into a guy who may be only what we have seen for 4 years. That would be even a bigger letdown then taking the wrong guy #1 IMHO.

Good post.

Kubiak is not going to sit down with McNair and tell him Carr sucks. But you'd better believe that he is not going to stake his first head coaching job on a quarterback that he does not believe in. Kubiak is aware of the incredible pressure and expectations that are on him, understands that he has a short leash, and while you can't expect him to publicly trash his quarterback a few days into his job, the proof will be in the pudding this April. If we cave to a certain segment of the fan base and draft Vince, well that is going to tell us all something about Kubiak's true feelings on Carr. If he doesn't draft Vince, then that should also be a strong indication. From a please-the-fans perspective, it is easy to draft Vince. If Kubiak is convinced he is the best player available for us, then it is an absolute no brainer.

Whether Kubiak merely has his reservations or loves Carr and wants him to take his daughter to prom, I believe he has indicated that he has confidence that Carr can get the job done in a new system, i.e. his.

And for the record, I'm not convinced that we are a lower level team in terms of talent. I don't think we are great talentwise, but I think we are much better than we looked. Look at some of the guys that came on big for us this year: Shantee Orr, Babin when he wasn't hurt, Mathis. We have a bunch of pretty decent playmakers on defense and guys like P-Buc who, undoubtedly, have talent but didn't perform to it. Is P-Buc just a giant sissy, or was he playing for coaches that didn't utilize him, didn't lead him and cause him to play up to his level. I am all for self motivation, but any great coach will tell you that the coaching staff is leadership to and of the players, and that a coach is required to get a player to perform at that player's highest level. Our coaching staff - as a whole - didn't do that.

bckey
01-31-2006, 12:12 PM
If you watched the news conference when Kubiak was announced as the Texans new head coach then there is really no way you can not believe this to be the case. McNair is obviously in love with Carr and would not have hired a coach that wasn't high on Carr. Kubiak is taking it upon himself to personally coach Carr 1 on 1. He knows his job depends on making sure Carr shows improvement. Kubiak is known for his good work with qbs so I believe this weighed heavily into McNairs decision to hire him. If it works out great. If not you can blame McNair for being more focused on fixing one man instead of an entire team.

jerek
01-31-2006, 12:24 PM
If you watched the news conference when Kubiak was announced as the Texans new head coach then there is really no way you can not believe this to be the case. McNair is obviously in love with Carr and would not have hired a coach that wasn't high on Carr. Kubiak is taking it upon himself to personally coach Carr 1 on 1. He knows his job depends on making sure Carr shows improvement. Kubiak is known for his good work with qbs so I believe this weighed heavily into McNairs decision to hire him. If it works out great. If not you can blame McNair for being more focused on fixing one man instead of an entire team.

Because McNair became a multi billionaire in the first place rolling the dice on a guy just because he likes him.

McNair has something to the tune of nine figures tied up in this team. Despite the somewhat formidable public outcry regarding Vince in these parts, despite that Carr fans are much harder to come by these days, despite that McNair is well aware that this is not his personal game of Maddenopoly but rather a serious business venture on which he stands to lose a fortune if he doesn't start running things properly and right the ship ... yes, I can see how in that in the midst of all of that and the turmoil surrounding the Texans these days, in spite of all of these things, he would hamstring his coach into taking his pet quarterback.

Get a new mantra already, or at least one that contains some semblance of truth.

Edit: Kubiak has happily turned down a number of interviews in the past, and even if you don't believe that, he has been in Denver for 11 years running a consistently successful offense coming off of an AFC championship, and making more than enough to keep his family fed. So that is why he would suddenly change his mind now and jump ship to the Texans with McNair twisting his arm on a QB he doesn't like the whole way.

infantrycak
01-31-2006, 12:25 PM
I McNair is obviously in love with Carr and would not have hired a coach that wasn't high on Carr.

This statement I suspect is absolutely correct. As Lucky said several weeks ago, the likely new HC was the one who best convinced McNair he could make Carr into a successful QB. That is not the same thing though as saying basically every HC candidate is going to lie and hitch their future to a guy they feel cannot be successful. Kubiack may be wrong (hopefully not) but IMO he sincerely believes Carr can be successful and the QB for a winning Texans team.

bckey
01-31-2006, 12:29 PM
Because McNair became a multi billionaire in the first place rolling the dice on a guy just because he likes him.

McNair has something to the tune of nine figures tied up in this team. Despite the somewhat formidable public outcry regarding Vince in these parts, despite that Carr fans are much harder to come by these days, despite that McNair is well aware that this is not his personal game of Maddenopoly but rather a serious business venture on which he stands to lose a fortune if he doesn't start running things properly and right the ship ... yes, I can see how in that in the midst of all of that and the turmoil surrounding the Texans these days, in spite of all of these things, he would hamstring his coach into taking his pet quarterback.

Get a new mantra already, or at least one that contains some semblance of truth.

I've noticed one thing with you Jerek. You can't stand it when someone doesn't agree with you.

Grow up already, or at least pretend to when on these boards.

jerek
01-31-2006, 12:31 PM
I've noticed one thing with you Jerek. You can't stand it when someone doesn't agree with you.

Grow up already, or at least pretend to when on these boards.

And that's the best you've got?

I've noticed something: when a person's argument crumbles beneath them, they get defensive, and are reduced to slinging weak insults. Or better yet, pretend the other person is doing so.

jerek
01-31-2006, 12:56 PM
If you watched the news conference when Kubiak was announced as the Texans new head coach then there is really no way you can not believe this to be the case. McNair is obviously in love with Carr and would not have hired a coach that wasn't high on Carr. Kubiak is taking it upon himself to personally coach Carr 1 on 1. He knows his job depends on making sure Carr shows improvement. Kubiak is known for his good work with qbs so I believe this weighed heavily into McNairs decision to hire him. If it works out great. If not you can blame McNair for being more focused on fixing one man instead of an entire team.

Allow me to rephrase, as I believe I misread bckey's words and jumped on him out of order:

I agree that McNair likes Carr, and would like to salvage him if possible. That said, I do not believe McNair blindly "loves" Carr, in that he is willing to stake his entire franchise on him. McNair is a businessman who has gone out of his way to hire consultants (Reeves) and replace a staff that was obviously malfunctioning, and when Reeves and Kubiak as well as other independent sources have all vouched for Carr, McNair is going to combine that with whatever other goodwill he has toward Carr and make a decision.

I do not believe McNair became filthy rich through blind loyalties. Furthermore, Houston's fanbase is going to be in an uproar no matter who we draft this April. McNair knows this, and I do not believe he is staking his franchise on "liking" the guy. Give him credit, he is doing his homework.

And I stand by my previous statement regarding Kubiak: a highly successful OC who, at this point, is virtually assured of an indefinite contract in Denver, would not suddenly jump ship and sling the owner a load of bull if he wasn't confident in Carr's capabilities in leading his new team.

TreWardTxn
01-31-2006, 03:36 PM
I don't agree with this at all. This isn't a question like can you use WordPerfect?--why of course. It is a question which is going to possibly determine the success or failure of the club and because of that whether the coach is retained. No one wants to get fired after 3 or 4 years. If Kubiack or another candidate didn't think they could get the job done and hold onto there job then they would be stupid to say Carr is just fine. Look around the league at QB changes and drafts with new head coaches--it isn't rare and you can bet the coaches didn't tell all the owners--no everything is hunky dory.

Carr was a number #1 pick, not some undrafted free agent, there isn't a talent evaluator or potential coach alive who is going to say the guy CAN'T play, he can. The problem he is having is psychological, the best thing for him to do is move to a new city with new fans/teammates, and new expectations, which would likely be having to play his way into a starting spot...

TEXANFAN23435
01-31-2006, 03:59 PM
No, Kubiak Was Brought In Here To Win. He Made It Known Before He Got The Job That Carr Had All The Tools Needed To Be Successful In The Nfl.

infantrycak
01-31-2006, 05:34 PM
Carr was a number #1 pick, not some undrafted free agent, there isn't a talent evaluator or potential coach alive who is going to say the guy CAN'T play, he can. The problem he is having is psychological, the best thing for him to do is move to a new city with new fans/teammates, and new expectations, which would likely be having to play his way into a starting spot...

I am sorry, but you are mixing two issues. It seems like you are saying Carr can play. If that is true, then Kubiack and the other HC candidates were making anything up to get the job. The issue though is what would a HC candidate do IF they believed Carr could not be the QB for a successful franchise. I don't buy that most HC candidates are going to have the most important opinion they give their potential new boss be a lie or that they are going to hitch their wagon to a guy they think is a loser. HC's don't stay HC's in the NFL without winning.

AustinJB
01-31-2006, 05:58 PM
I don't buy that most HC candidates are going to have the most important opinion they give their potential new boss be a lie or that they are going to hitch their wagon to a guy they think is a loser. HC's don't stay HC's in the NFL without winning.

I think people are reading too much into what the HC candidates had to say about Carr. Does Kubes think he can make it work w/ Carr? Yeah, he made it work w/ the Snake in Denver....but if you would've asked him if would rather have Jake or Brady..or Big Ben..or P.Manning...or McNabb, I'm sure he would have made it work even better w/ one of those QBs.

Just b/c he could make it work w/ Carr doesn't mean that he wouldn't like a better QB. It doesn't mean he's lying or hitching his wagon to a loser.:twocents:

infantrycak
01-31-2006, 06:02 PM
I think people are reading too much into what the HC candidates had to say about Carr. Does Kubes think he can make it work w/ Carr? Yeah, he made it work w/ the Snake in Denver....but if you would've asked him if would rather have Jake or Brady..or Big Ben..or P.Manning...or McNabb, I'm sure he would have made it work even better w/ one of those QBs.

Just b/c he could make it work w/ Carr doesn't mean that he wouldn't like a better QB. It doesn't mean he's lying or hitching his wagon to a loser.:twocents:

I agree with you to a degree and disagree. Kubiack couldn't cut Carr off at the knees no matter what or it might hurt the Texans' options. On the other hand he didn't need to go as far as he did either. More importantly IMO were the comments by McNair after the press conference. Several of the comments he used (Brady didn't look like a good QB when pressured, etc.) were comments which people around here characterize as Carr lover comments or Carr excuse # whatever comments. IMO right or wrong McNair likes Carr and has heard from Reeves and Kubiack that Carr can be and will be the man for the franchise. I am not taking a position that they are right, although I obviously hope they are for the good of the team, but that is my impression.