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raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 12:39 PM
With that aside, I have read alot of these threads about taking Reggie over Vince. I understand that Reggie would have a greater impact now, but Young will have a tremendous impact in the future. Consider this:

Granted, these two guys are not LaDanian Tomlinson and Michael Vick but they are similar so work with me. If you had the chance to draft either LT or Vick, who would you take with the number one pick, even if you had a QB or just resigned your top HB? I think the answer hands down is Vick. He is hands down the most electrifying athlete in the world, yes WORLD.

I don't care who your QB is or what the situation is, you DO NOT pass up on a special franchise type player like Vince. You make it work. David Carr is not a franchise player. He was, unfortunately, drafted like one though. Please don't pull a Portland and draft Sam Bowie because you don't need a 2-Guard.

Don't get me wrong, Bush is an outstanding player and an exceptional athlete, but the QB position is the most important position on the field. We are not super bowl contenders or even playoff contenders, so starting over is an option. I don't see any reason not to start over after a 2-14 season. What's the worst that could happen? We lose all 16 games? So we had a record 2 games worse than a year ago. Not that big of a deal, another number one overall? Sure thanks. Let's not even go into the sentimental side of the arguement since Vince is a true born and raised Houstonian and will continue to represent his hometown till the day he dies. And let's not get into the business side either. What other team has the potential to sell out every home game the season after going 2-14? A team that draft Vince Young does. Do you really think Yao Ming was drafted by the Rockets because of his talent? Moving on...

Sometimes you have to take 2 steps back before you can take that first step forward in the right direction. Vince won't make the immediate impact that Reggie can, but there is no way I pass on him. Luckily for all you Bush fans, I'm not making the decision. Go Texans!

Grid
01-27-2006, 12:41 PM
the problem I have with starting over is that we are chock full of young talent, all we need is good coaching to get them off the ground.

Usually...you start over when you are chock full of veterans and reaching the cap limit trying to keep em and such. You dont start over after one bad year with a young team.

tulexan
01-27-2006, 12:41 PM
I actually would have taken LT. Vick has proven that he can't stay healthy for an entire season while LT has proven that he is arguably the best player at his position. Vick's stats are more comparable to David Carr's when you look at them.

raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 12:49 PM
the problem I have with starting over is that we are chock full of young talent, all we need is good coaching to get them off the ground.

Usually...you start over when you are chock full of veterans and reaching the cap limit trying to keep em and such. You dont start over after one bad year with a young team.

All we need is good coaching? ALL WE NEED? No sir. That is not all we need. Good coaching helps but talent helps alot more. We need talent to win and if you think this team is a playoff contender based on that 7-9 season ages ago, you are sadly mistaken. People are looking for a miracle turn around with Bush. Even if we take Reggie bush, we still will not make the playoffs, especially in the AFC. Come on, take the blinders off! We suck! 2-14? Oh yea, it was the coach's fault. Gimme a break.

infantrycak
01-27-2006, 12:49 PM
If you had the chance to draft either LT or Vick, who would you take with the number one pick, even if you had a QB or just resigned your top HB? I think the answer hands down is Vick. He is hands down the most electrifying athlete in the world, yes WORLD.

I'd take LT--he is the best RB in the league. Vick is electrifying, but he hasn't developed into a solid QB even after 5 years in the league (which is why folks are distancing Young from Vick comparisons).

Grid
01-27-2006, 12:52 PM
All we need is good coaching? ALL WE NEED? No sir. That is not all we need. Good coaching helps but talent helps alot more. We need talent to win and if you think this team is a playoff contender based on that 7-9 season ages ago, you are sadly mistaken. People are looking for a miracle turn around with Bush. Even if we take Reggie bush, we still will not make the playoffs, especially in the AFC. Come on, take the blinders off! We suck! 2-14? Oh yea, it was the coach's fault. Gimme a break.


yah... 7-9 the year before was a fluke. the slow but steady progress up until this season was a fluke. The rookie of the year nominations..the pro bowl appearences.. flukes. The great stats.. the great games we played against tough teams..flukes.

The flashes of talent from Carr, Johnson, Orr, Babin, Peek, Mathis, Gaffney, Brown and Earl.. lots of flukes.

Yes.. they all suck.. cut them all.. draft everyone from UT, and win the superbowl in 3 years.. that is the smart thing to do.


:ok:

raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 12:55 PM
I actually would have taken LT. Vick has proven that he can't stay healthy for an entire season while LT has proven that he is arguably the best player at his position. Vick's stats are more comparable to David Carr's when you look at them.

Vick is not as durable as Young. Have you seen the guy? He is a beast. I understand that the NFL hits ALOT harder than college but still, if your arguement is durability, I hope you're not a Bush supporter. If that doesn't have injury written all over it, I don't know what does. What is he like 5'9'' and a buck eighty soakin wet? But look at Warrick Dunn. Not very injury prone. Bottom line is injuries happen and they are a part of the game. That is not an arguement to stand beside.

And the stats of vick? When do they let him throw the ball? Are the Falons running stats comparable to the Texans? When they are let me know. And when David Carr can carry a team like Mr. Vick can, then compare what you will. Enough said.

tulexan
01-27-2006, 12:56 PM
All we need is good coaching? ALL WE NEED? No sir. That is not all we need. Good coaching helps but talent helps alot more. We need talent to win and if you think this team is a playoff contender based on that 7-9 season ages ago, you are sadly mistaken. People are looking for a miracle turn around with Bush. Even if we take Reggie bush, we still will not make the playoffs, especially in the AFC. Come on, take the blinders off! We suck! 2-14? Oh yea, it was the coach's fault. Gimme a break.


That is not true at all. Coaching makes a huge difference. Joe Gibbs is notorious for being successful with teams that don't have the best talent, but they follow his system and they win Super Bowls. Mark Rypien and Doug Williams weren't HOFers, but they sure did look like them under Joe Gibbs.

raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 01:00 PM
yah... 7-9 the year before was a fluke. the slow but steady progress up until this season was a fluke. The rookie of the year nominations..the pro bowl appearences.. flukes. The great stats.. the great games we played against tough teams..flukes.

The flashes of talent from Carr, Johnson, Orr, Babin, Peek, Mathis, Gaffney, Brown and Earl.. lots of flukes.

Yes.. they all suck.. cut them all.. draft everyone from UT, and win the superbowl in 3 years.. that is the smart thing to do.


:ok:

Did I say it was a fluke? We were headed on a good path. Focus on the word were. That went out the window when we released Sharper, Glenn, and Foreman. These guys were the core of our defense and the only hope we had of staying in close games. Now look at our D. Couldn't stop Vince and his Madison team if they wanted to. I know you didn't throw Babin in that list so I'm going to ignore that...

As for your "draft everyone from UT" statement, come on. Miami maybe. I'm no longhorns fan. I'm a Vince Young fan, get it right!

raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 01:06 PM
That is not true at all. Coaching makes a huge difference. Joe Gibbs is notorious for being successful with teams that don't have the best talent, but they follow his system and they win Super Bowls. Mark Rypien and Doug Williams weren't HOFers, but they sure did look like them under Joe Gibbs.

Hey great point. I didn't know Gary Kubiak was the next coming of Joe Gibbs? When did he pass Landry, Lombardi, and Belichick? Was it while he was getting turned down for head coaching positions a few years back?

The fact is that there are only a few great coaches in this league and sorry to say, we don't have one of them. Excuse me if i don't jump for joy when the Texans hire a guy who has never been a head coach in the NFL before. Give him Reggie and we will win the super bowl! I'd rather give him a QB who doesn't tuck in and run when the primary reciever is covered. I'd rather give him a QB that knows what winning feels like. I'd rather give him a QB that has all the intangibles to be a great leader and a superstar in this league. But hey, that's just my crazy reasoning!

infantrycak
01-27-2006, 01:07 PM
That went out the window when we released Sharper, Glenn, and Foreman. These guys were the core of our defense and the only hope we had of staying in close games.

I know you didn't throw Babin in that list so I'm going to ignore that...

I know you didn't throw Foreman in that list--the guy who watched the NFL from his couch last year because he couldn't get on another team even as a back-up.

tulexan
01-27-2006, 01:12 PM
Hey great point. I didn't know Gary Kubiak was the next coming of Joe Gibbs? When did he pass Landry, Lombardi, and Belichick? Was it while he was getting turned down for head coaching positions a few years back?

The fact is that there are only a few great coaches in this league and sorry to say, we don't have one of them. Excuse me if i don't jump for joy when the Texans hire a guy who has never been a head coach in the NFL before. Give him Reggie and we will win the super bowl!


I'm not saying that he is the next coming of Joe Gibbs, but I was using him as a point that coaching makes a big difference. It isn't just Joe Gibbs either. Marvin Lewis has improved the Bengals, Lovie Smith has turned the Bears into a playoff team after being a laughing stock last year, Nick Saban turned the Dolphins into a winning team, and there are more examples too. Also funny how none of those guys were head coaches in their previous jobs.

jerek
01-27-2006, 01:15 PM
I like parts of your argument because they are well written, and reading through your other threads, it seems clear to me that you have football/NFL knowledge, even if I don't agree with your take on Young. That said,

(a) QB is the single most important position out of 21 others, but it is hardly the end-all, be-all, requisite for success. The Ravens and the Bucs have both recently won Super Bowls on the strength of their defenses and running games while employing very average QBs who simply didn't screw the game up. Even Tom Brady, while decidedly a great QB, is a very unflashy, no-scrambling, not-strong-armed QB who just makes right decisions and comes up big in the clutch. Hasselback is as unflashy as they get, Delhomme the same, and Plummer is very comparable to Carr in virtually every respect of his game and the first four years of their careers. Perpetual bad *** Mr. Peyton Manning got smoked the first playoff game he played this year. If this does not give you pause to reevaluate your stance on the QB in the "vital" role of successful teams, I am not sure what else will. Important, sure, but hardly all consuming.

(2) Vick's limited success has come in streaks and his playoff runs amidst one of the very worst divisions/weakest schedules in the NFL. NFL defenses have figured him out and until he improves his reads and his accuracy, he is a one-trick pony. I would hardly tout Vick as much of an improvement over Carr.

(3) We have already been over the Portland/Sam Bowie thing on this board and it still isn't relevant. BPA is relevant in basketball (5 men on the court, easy to play two of one position at once) and even moreso in light of the different cap/contract structure in the NBA. In the NFL, in fielding eleven players on both sides of the ball and position skill being much more static, you have to draft by position needed, even if you and every GM and the queen of England are all sold on Vince being a first-ballot HOFer before the guy even takes an NFL snap.

(4) I know that your Yao Ming argument wasn't meant to be the crux of your post, but it completely nullifies that segment of it. Yao, even when healthy, has been a substantial disappointment from a production vs. potential standpoint: the 7'6" freak of nature that just hasn't lived up to expectations yet. When I go to Rockets games on my cheap seats it is easy to move into the VIP seats because THEY ARE ALL EMPTY. The Rockets are in the bottom of the West and have never made it far into the playoffs with Yao as their "franchise" center. Meanwhile, what would our home games look like if we were WINNING?

(5) Your avatar is cute, but I hate it because it supports Vince Young, and by association I have come to hate you.

Kidding, guys! Don't be mad. It's all good. I understand the appeal of Vince, and as much as there are a lot of valid reasons to take him, there are more not to.

Kaiser Toro
01-27-2006, 01:18 PM
I like parts of your argument because they are well written, and reading through your other threads, it seems clear to me that you have football/NFL knowledge, even if I don't agree with your take on Young. That said.

You get the diplomat of the day award. ;)

raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 01:21 PM
Who made a bigger impact on the Texans, Foreman or Babin? I'd say Foreman without blinking. Babin's tribal arm bands must symbolize all those RB's ripping thru his arm tackles. And we traded up to get this guy? How do you still have a job Charley? At least we didn't waste draft picks on Foreman.

Kaiser Toro
01-27-2006, 01:23 PM
Who made a bigger impact on the Texans, Foreman or Babin? I'd say Foreman without blinking. Babin's tribal arm bands must symbolize all those RB's ripping thru his arm tackles. And we traded up to get this guy? How do you still have a job Charley? At least we didn't waste draft picks on Foreman.

Boo hiss on that one. Babin started to come on at the end of year after coming back from the injury. Foreman had been in the league for years.

Grid
01-27-2006, 01:24 PM
Did I say it was a fluke? We were headed on a good path. Focus on the word were. That went out the window when we released Sharper, Glenn, and Foreman. These guys were the core of our defense and the only hope we had of staying in close games. Now look at our D. Couldn't stop Vince and his Madison team if they wanted to. I know you didn't throw Babin in that list so I'm going to ignore that...

As for your "draft everyone from UT" statement, come on. Miami maybe. I'm no longhorns fan. I'm a Vince Young fan, get it right!


so the loss of three 30+ year old players makes you think that rebuilding is the best course of action? you realize that it was our offense that led us to that 7-9 season in 2004 right? Yet you are claiming that our downfall was the loss of 3 players on defense?

It was coaching and a lack of veteran leadership that hurt the team. You dont need to rebuild your team to acquire either of these.

raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 01:37 PM
(4) I know that your Yao Ming argument wasn't meant to be the crux of your post, but it completely nullifies that segment of it. Yao, even when healthy, has been a substantial disappointment from a production vs. potential standpoint: the 7'6" freak of nature that just hasn't lived up to expectations yet. When I go to Rockets games on my cheap seats it is easy to move into the VIP seats because THEY ARE ALL EMPTY. The Rockets are in the bottom of the West and have never made it far into the playoffs with Yao as their "franchise" center. Meanwhile, what would our home games look like if we were WINNING?



Had to address this first. You misunderstood my point. The reason the Rockets drafted Yao was because of his income potential, same thing with Roger Clemens and the Astros. They make money for the franchise. Vince would undoubtedly do the same. Undoubtedly as in...WITHOUT A DOUBT! People are still hungry for football in Houston and Vince would quench their thirst, even if it ends up not working out.

Your other points were admirable, not well thought out but admirable. You are right about the Superbowl and the QB situation. You don't need a top QB to win a superbowl. But you better have a Raven's type defense and we are light years and 10 players away from that (my man DRob holdin it down!). Unless we can some how get 10 great defensive players with one pick, I take Vince. A proven leader who can carry a team when all else fails. Of course, this won't happen soon but I guarantee you it will happen for whichever team he plays for.

I would hardly tout Vick as much of an improvement over Carr.

Wow. No comment on that one. Take me to your dealer.

Moving on to the draft by need argument. If you don't take Vince, trade the pick. There is no reason to draft a RB when you have DD and obviously the Texans like him and his new contract extension.

Number 5 is your best arguement but you screwed it up by apologizing afterwards so there went that.

Thanks for the response by the way. I needed some time to kill.

raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 01:43 PM
so the loss of three 30+ year old players makes you think that rebuilding is the best course of action? you realize that it was our offense that led us to that 7-9 season in 2004 right? Yet you are claiming that our downfall was the loss of 3 players on defense?

It was coaching and a lack of veteran leadership that hurt the team. You dont need to rebuild your team to acquire either of these.

First off, they were not just any 30+ players. Forget about Foreman for now but Glenn was a Pro-Bowl corner and Sharper let your team in tackles the year previous, and not to mention the leadership that they provided and we so obviously needed throughout the season. They were main contributors to the defense and we're clearly missed. But its ok cuz we got the Jamaican Sensation Morlon Greenwood and Antwan "brain like Swift" Peek to replace Sharper and a fast clutz in Philip Buchanon to replace a proven veteran corner.

Second, these were the same coaches that led them to your 7-9 glory days so why did the offense struggle? Bottom line is that we sucked on both sides of the ball. That calls for a re-evaluation for every position. I am tired of David Carr having a free pass. He needs some competition. Banks isn't great and sometimes he looks better than Carr because he actually makes a decision and throws the ball! Granted, most are intercepted but still he lets it fly. David is, as we all know, damaged goods. Bring on the new guy!

tulexan
01-27-2006, 01:48 PM
Yao's marketing potential may have been a factor in their decision to draft him, but it was not the sole reason. Just like the Astros signing Roger Clemens. Roger did win the Cy Young with the Astros remember? Yao was drafted because he had unbelievable marketing potential, and was also a potentially great NBA player. The whole argument about how Yao has been a disappointment goes back to my argument that we shouldn't be comparing prospects to HOFers. Yao may be a disappointment if you compare his numbers with some of the all time greats, but he is consistently one of the best centers in the league and can hold his own against anyone. Yao and T-Mac were not the reasons why we failed in the playoffs. In fact those two played better or just as good as any other player in the playoffs. The Rockets problems were because they had no PF and an undersized SG.

But back to the Texans. Even those two great marketing gold mines (Yao and Roger), had trouble filling their respective arena and stadium when the team was struggling. People aren't going to watch a losing product regardless of who is on the field or the court. The idea that people will gladly watch Vince Young be a failure in the NFL just because he is from Houston and won the National Championship with Texas is ludicrous.

And comparing drafting Bush to Young because of Davis and Carr also does not make sense because Young and Carr can't and won't be on the field at the same time. Bush and Davis can and will be on the field at the same time. With Vince you are adding by subtracting. With Reggie you are adding by adding.

Bubbajwp
01-27-2006, 01:55 PM
Vick is not as durable as Young. Have you seen the guy? He is a beast. I understand that the NFL hits ALOT harder than college but still, if your arguement is durability, I hope you're not a Bush supporter. If that doesn't have injury written all over it, I don't know what does. What is he like 5'9'' and a buck eighty soakin wet? But look at Warrick Dunn. Not very injury prone. Bottom line is injuries happen and they are a part of the game. That is not an arguement to stand beside.

And the stats of vick? When do they let him throw the ball? Are the Falons running stats comparable to the Texans? When they are let me know. And when David Carr can carry a team like Mr. Vick can, then compare what you will. Enough said.
Lets take a look at the QBs known for running
McNabb - injured
Vick - injured
S McNair - injured
Culpepper - injured
Next on the list VY

Reggie Bush is 6'0 200 and I think he has gained seven or eight pounds so he is now 207.

thunderkyss
01-27-2006, 02:08 PM
With that aside, I have read alot of these threads about taking Reggie over Vince. I understand that Reggie would have a greater impact now, but Young will have a tremendous impact in the future. Consider this:

Granted, these two guys are not LaDanian Tomlinson and Michael Vick but they are similar so work with me. Go Texans!


See.... You messed up from the get go. Having Vick stand in for Vince. Vick ain't got nothing on VY........... You should have used McNabb..... Vince will be a better McNabb.

Now who will take Ladainian Tomlinson(who I love) over McNabb?? how 'bout Marshall Faulk or Michael Westbrook over McNabb.

Bubbajwp
01-27-2006, 02:09 PM
See.... You messed up from the get go. Having Vick stand in for Vince. Vick ain't got nothing on VY........... You should have used McNabb..... Vince will be a better McNabb.

Now who will take Ladainian Tomlinson(who I love) over McNabb?? how 'bout Marshall Faulk or Michael Westbrook over McNabb.
I would still take LT.

tulexan
01-27-2006, 02:09 PM
I would take Faulk over McNabb any day. Faulk in his prime was absolutely dominant. And he has a ring which is more than McNabb can say.

thunderkyss
01-27-2006, 02:12 PM
What's faulk done without Kurt Warner??

LT over McNabb............ that's crazy.

LongBignasty1
01-27-2006, 02:14 PM
QB's that don't run

1. Carlson Palmer - injured
2. Brian Griese - injured
3. etc, every pllayer gets injured welcome to the mens league

tulexan
01-27-2006, 02:20 PM
Faulk is also at the end of his career, so he hasn't done much recently. But I will take a 3 time offensive player of the year, league MVP, and Super Bowl winner over a guy who has none of that.

Faulk also became the league MVP after only averaging 15.8 carries per game and 5.06 catches per game. That's funny I thought a guy who touches the ball that few times per game couldn't possibly be successful in the NFL. I thought you had to carry the ball a minimum of 25 times per game.

raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 02:20 PM
At least I got some back up finally! I need some people to hold down the fort since I have to go. I'll be back breaking Bush lovers hearts as soon as possible!

Bubbajwp
01-27-2006, 02:23 PM
QB's that don't run

1. Carlson Palmer - injured
2. Brian Griese - injured
3. etc, every pllayer gets injured welcome to the mens league
Your comparing a few pocket QBs to every running QB. Ofcourse anybody can get hurt at any time. But when 100% of the mobile QBs get hurt this year and a big majority got hurt last year. Dont you see a pattern.

raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 02:26 PM
But back to the Texans. Even those two great marketing gold mines (Yao and Roger), had trouble filling their respective arena and stadium when the team was struggling. People aren't going to watch a losing product regardless of who is on the field or the court. The idea that people will gladly watch Vince Young be a failure in the NFL just because he is from Houston and won the National Championship with Texas is ludicrous.


This just in: Texas are a losing product and have been since they were introduced to the league! I can count the winning seasons on my third nipple. We sold out every home game last year on hope. Hope that after a 7-9 season, we would improve our record. SOLD OUT! If you don't think that we will sell out every and I mean EVERY home game if the hometown savior Vince Young is drafted by the Texans, then you sir are ludicrous!

For your sake, I hope you are not in sales.

Bubbajwp
01-27-2006, 02:29 PM
This just in: Texas are a losing product and have been since they were introduced to the league! I can count the winning seasons on my third nipple. We sold out every home game last year on hope. Hope that after a 7-9 season, we would improve our record. SOLD OUT! If you don't think that we will sell out every and I mean EVERY home game if the hometown savior Vince Young is drafted by the Texans, then you sir are ludicrous!

For your sake, I hope you are not in sales.
VY may sell alot of tickets but so will Bush. Also Winning will sell tickets far better than VY or RB.

LongBignasty1
01-27-2006, 02:29 PM
Vince Young is not your typical running QB. He doesn't have the typical run first pass later mentality that most other Running QB's do. He is a dedicated smart winner that just happened to lead the NCAA in passing efficeincy during the regular season. There is also the aspect of him being flushed out of the pocket and being agile enough to break it past the linebackers into the secondary. It doesn't mean he runs every play with the intention of running. Those who do usually get hurt, yes im fully aware.

tulexan
01-27-2006, 02:32 PM
No they will initially sell out games I'm not denying that, but if he fails once he gets a chance to play, people will abandon him just as fast as they did Carr. People want to watch a winning product on the field regardless of where the star player is from. Successful teams sell tickets. Look at all of the successful teams in the league and I'm sure they are selling out all of their games. You will also find that none of them have a local marquee player on the team.

Another thing, if Vince isn't going to play for a year or two, who is going to be going to the games next year when he isn't playing? Are all of the Longhorn fans going to go to all of the games just to watch him hold a clipboard on the sidelines?

Bubbajwp
01-27-2006, 02:33 PM
Vince Young is not your typical running QB. He doesn't have the typical run first pass later mentality that most other Running QB's do. He is a dedicated smart winner that just happened to lead the NCAA in passing efficeincy during the regular season. There is also the aspect of him being flushed out of the pocket and being agile enough to break it past the linebackers into the secondary. It doesn't mean he runs every play with the intention of running. Those who do usually get hurt, yes im fully aware.
Good point.

BigBull17
01-27-2006, 02:38 PM
First off, they were not just any 30+ players. Forget about Foreman for now but Glenn was a Pro-Bowl corner and Sharper let your team in tackles the year previous, and not to mention the leadership that they provided and we so obviously needed throughout the season. They were main contributors to the defense and we're clearly missed. But its ok cuz we got the Jamaican Sensation Morlon Greenwood and Antwan "brain like Swift" Peek to replace Sharper and a fast clutz in Philip Buchanon to replace a proven veteran corner.

Second, these were the same coaches that led them to your 7-9 glory days so why did the offense struggle? Bottom line is that we sucked on both sides of the ball. That calls for a re-evaluation for every position. I am tired of David Carr having a free pass. He needs some competition. Banks isn't great and sometimes he looks better than Carr because he actually makes a decision and throws the ball! Granted, most are intercepted but still he lets it fly. David is, as we all know, damaged goods. Bring on the new guy!

Thats a tired subject. Most of his tackles were made 4-5 yrds down the field. He and Glenn were both mney pits who made more than their pay justifys. However I would have liked more of an upgrade than Moron Greenwood and Phillip "I cant tackle" Buchanon.

tulexan
01-27-2006, 02:38 PM
He is a dedicated smart winner that just happened to lead the NCAA in passing efficeincy during the regular season.

If you are going to use selective statistics for him and only go by the regular season, then he was neither a 3000 yard passer or a 1000 yard rusher.

jaayteetx
01-27-2006, 02:43 PM
I actually would have taken LT. Vick has proven that he can't stay healthy for an entire season while LT has proven that he is arguably the best player at his position. Vick's stats are more comparable to David Carr's when you look at them.

I agree, Vick is the most over-rated player in the league. Exciting at times, still over-rated!

jerek
01-27-2006, 03:10 PM
Had to address this first. You misunderstood my point. The reason the Rockets drafted Yao was because of his income potential, same thing with Roger Clemens and the Astros. They make money for the franchise. Vince would undoubtedly do the same. Undoubtedly as in...WITHOUT A DOUBT! People are still hungry for football in Houston and Vince would quench their thirst, even if it ends up not working out.

Your other points were admirable, not well thought out but admirable. You are right about the Superbowl and the QB situation. You don't need a top QB to win a superbowl. But you better have a Raven's type defense and we are light years and 10 players away from that (my man DRob holdin it down!). Unless we can some how get 10 great defensive players with one pick, I take Vince. A proven leader who can carry a team when all else fails. Of course, this won't happen soon but I guarantee you it will happen for whichever team he plays for.

Wow. No comment on that one. Take me to your dealer.

Moving on to the draft by need argument. If you don't take Vince, trade the pick. There is no reason to draft a RB when you have DD and obviously the Texans like him and his new contract extension.

Number 5 is your best arguement but you screwed it up by apologizing afterwards so there went that.

Thanks for the response by the way. I needed some time to kill.

Lol.

I apologized because I have been banned in times past for being abrasive.

Sports - like anything else - are driven by money and ticket sales. Winning sells tickets. I don't care how many Chinese kids came to Rockets games when Yao first came into town (and that's not racist: a big part of Yao playing in Houston was because of our large Asian population, and it was a deliberate PR compromise on the part of NBA and the People's Republic). Drafting Vince on the basis of him selling seats is stupid: it doesn't belong in the argument, period. If we win, we sell, if we lose, we don't. That's the math.

You say draft Vince to sell tickets "even if it doesn't end up working out." Great, so we ship off Carr, eat his 8M in signing bonus, sign Vince for another 55M (~20M or so in guaranteed bonus), and then ... ship him off too, if he doesn't work out? Eat his bonus too? Because that makes sense? That is one fantastic little experiment in ticket sales.

Vick is an upgrade why? Because he's flashy? Because he's exciting? Vick is going to the Pro Bowl this year, that's great. He didn't go to the playoffs this year, he is consistently average or in the bottom half of the league in all passing statistics, and he is, at the end of the day, a running back getting paid quarterback money to do what Brad freakin Banks or any backup QB in the league can do with his arm. Vick has had limited success in a historically abysmal division and doesn't appear to be addressing any of the weaknesses in his game, and he has a hell of a lot better supporting cast/coaching staff than Carr had this year. So he is that much better than Carr ... because why again? Give me a guy like Hasselback, Delhomme, Plummer, Roethlisberger, Manning ... you know, those successful QBs? who will sit in the pocket and make plays with his arm. Vick would be great if he could throw worth a damn, but since he can't, I don't see the relevancy here.

If you don't take Vince, I don't mind trading the pick. I see reasons to take Bush over taking Vince, but if we can get a good trade and use it wisely, I am all for that.

And our D is not as bad as you suppose, nor is the Ravens D as good as you suppose. Their Super Bowl D is/was hardly comprised of "11 great players:" more like 2-3 great players and a bunch of pretty good to decent players who play for a great defensive coordinator. We can solve one half of that equation when we go to hire our own DC this year.

Thank you, please come again when you have a little more substance to back up that ferocious wit of yours.

LongBignasty1
01-27-2006, 03:24 PM
Jerek, you are really funny! The 2000 Ravens only had 2-3 superstars? Once again when you speak i lose brain cells by listening. Ray Lewis, Sam Adams, Rod Woodson, Peter Boulware, Chris Mcalister, Jamie Sharper, Michael Mccrary - that is just seven of the defensive roster for that team and they are all pro-bowlers. Why don't you try some substance and quit trying to hit people up with your nonfactual statements. Sad that you stoop to this level to diss your own teams fans.

LongBignasty1
01-27-2006, 03:25 PM
Oh yeah you sound like a

KING_HOUSTON
01-27-2006, 03:55 PM
Vick is an upgrade why? Because he's flashy? Because he's exciting? Vick is going to the Pro Bowl this year, that's great. He didn't go to the playoffs this year, he is consistently average or in the bottom half of the league in all passing statistics, and he is, at the end of the day, a running back getting paid quarterback money to do what Brad freakin Banks or any backup QB in the league can do with his arm. Vick has had limited success in a historically abysmal division and doesn't appear to be addressing any of the weaknesses in his game, and he has a hell of a lot better supporting cast/coaching staff than Carr had this year. So he is that much better than Carr ... because why again? Give me a guy like Hasselback, Delhomme, Plummer, Roethlisberger, Manning ... you know, those successful QBs? who will sit in the pocket and make plays with his arm. Vick would be great if he could throw worth a damn, but since he can't, I don't see the relevancy here.


VIck is an upgrade, are you joking??? DAvid CArr cant hold VIcks Jock Strap, When was the last time CArr won a playoff game??? Uhh let me think....NEVER!! ABysmal division?? Didnt the panthers just get knocked of the playoffs last week, they were also in the super bowl two years ago, Before that Tampa was the SUper bowl champs, all from that same Abysmal division??? Wow, where do you get your info???..:redtowel:

GO TEXANS!!

Kaiser Toro
01-27-2006, 04:03 PM
This just in: Texas are a losing product and have been since they were introduced to the league! I can count the winning seasons on my third nipple. We sold out every home game last year on hope. Hope that after a 7-9 season, we would improve our record. SOLD OUT! If you don't think that we will sell out every and I mean EVERY home game if the hometown savior Vince Young is drafted by the Texans, then you sir are ludicrous!

For your sake, I hope you are not in sales.

Your off base my man. Sold tickets have not been a problem and will not be next year either reagrdless of who is drafted.

Texan Asylum
01-27-2006, 04:14 PM
Man, I can spell a plant a mile away and the plants are the posters that seem to go out of their way to raise someone's irr. We get sucked in because we tend to be reactionary in nature instead of thinking of the obvious. Seen lots of plants in the last few weeks and someones having a good time. Pretty smart on their parts or the alternative is ALOT more people are interested in the Texans than ever before. Let's try to let these PLANTS just go away.

jerek
01-27-2006, 04:18 PM
Jerek, you are really funny! The 2000 Ravens only had 2-3 superstars? Once again when you speak i lose brain cells by listening. Ray Lewis, Sam Adams, Rod Woodson, Peter Boulware, Chris Mcalister, Jamie Sharper, Michael Mccrary - that is just seven of the defensive roster for that team and they are all pro-bowlers. Why don't you try some substance and quit trying to hit people up with your nonfactual statements. Sad that you stoop to this level to diss your own teams fans.

I guess I was working with a different defintion of "superstar." Feel free to substitute your own: in this case, it appears to be "has made Pro Bowl at some point in his career." You'll also note my use of relative qualifiers: "not as good' and "not as bad." These are absent from your statements, which you appear to be representing as completely factual. Read that paragraph again and let it sink it. See you when you get back, as I am waiting on our mods to toss you for the brain cells comment: I have been banned for much less.

VIck is an upgrade, are you joking??? DAvid CArr cant hold VIcks Jock Strap, When was the last time CArr won a playoff game??? Uhh let me think....NEVER!! ABysmal division?? Didnt the panthers just get knocked of the playoffs last week, they were also in the super bowl two years ago, Before that Tampa was the SUper bowl champs, all from that same Abysmal division??? Wow, where do you get your info???..:redtowel:

GO TEXANS!!

I was referring to the years in which Vick's team made the playoffs, and I don't know if, say, the rest of his team had anything to do with that, what do you think?

Vick is a subpar QB who is continually fawned over by flash-in-the-pan fans. Until he finishes somewhere substantially above David Carr in terms of passing production, you will not convince me that is a substantially better quarterback.

Make a little more sense now?

KING_HOUSTON
01-27-2006, 04:22 PM
Man, I can spell a plant a mile away and the plants are the posters that seem to go out of their way to raise someone's irr. We get sucked in because we tend to be reactionary in nature instead of thinking of the obvious. Seen lots of plants in the last few weeks and someones having a good time. Pretty smart on their parts or the alternative is ALOT more people are interested in the Texans than ever before. Let's try to let these PLANTS just go away.

Thanks alot Dr. Phil, ANy more Advice..:spy:

Texans_Chick
01-27-2006, 04:40 PM
Granted, these two guys are not LaDanian Tomlinson and Michael Vick but they are similar so work with me. If you had the chance to draft either LT or Vick, who would you take with the number one pick, even if you had a QB or just resigned your top HB? I think the answer hands down is Vick. He is hands down the most electrifying athlete in the world, yes WORLD.

I reject your comparison. :)

I would love to have an LT on my team, but I don't see the comparison between Bush and LT. I think the better case scenario is Marshall Faulk and I would be happy if Bush has his sorts of stats for the Texans.

VY's stats from college are way better than Vick's from college. A much better QB and a better runner and better QB size. I haven't been able to find a good comparison to VY because many of the running QBs were not as good of passers, and a lot of the throwing QBs do not have his escapability, and I haven't found a good comparsion that has both the passing and running and his physical size and strength.

So there you go.

Texan Asylum
01-27-2006, 04:48 PM
:spy:

infantrycak
01-27-2006, 05:32 PM
Once again when you speak i lose brain cells by listening.

If people keep up with insults such as this you are going to start losing entire posts.

raised_on_beans_n_rice
01-27-2006, 06:06 PM
Your off base my man. Sold tickets have not been a problem and will not be next year either reagrdless of who is drafted.

There are several fans that would be upset if Vince was not drafted. Get that out of the way first. The guy is a local hero and the biggest celebrity in Houston right now. There is no disputing what he did in college. For cryin' out loud there was a Vince Young Day declared by the mayor!

I think you underestimate just how popular he is. Ticket sales would definitely be affected. Don't kid yourself. Just as an example, did you happen to hear Bill Worrell say live on a Rockets broadcast that he is a season ticket holder and he wanted to see Vince drafted. He was basically using his status as a season tix holder as a threat to draft Vince or else he wouldn't renew them. Granted, that was one man but I guarantee you that he is not the only season ticket holder who feels this way.

This decision is bigger than just picking between two football players. The next few months leading up to the draft will be extremely entertaining.

LongBignasty1
01-27-2006, 06:12 PM
No doubt and it would'nt even be a discussion had David Carr not gotten progressively worse every year. Vince Young is the real deal and i hope all y'all young haters plan to be Texans fans once he is our QB.

Nasty out

Kaiser Toro
01-27-2006, 06:31 PM
There are several fans that would be upset if Vince was not drafted. Get that out of the way first. The guy is a local hero and the biggest celebrity in Houston right now. There is no disputing what he did in college. For cryin' out loud there was a Vince Young Day declared by the mayor!

I think you underestimate just how popular he is. Ticket sales would definitely be affected. Don't kid yourself. Just as an example, did you happen to hear Bill Worrell say live on a Rockets broadcast that he is a season ticket holder and he wanted to see Vince drafted. He was basically using his status as a season tix holder as a threat to draft Vince or else he wouldn't renew them. Granted, that was one man but I guarantee you that he is not the only season ticket holder who feels this way.

This decision is bigger than just picking between two football players. The next few months leading up to the draft will be extremely entertaining.

There are 50k PSL's sold before VY attended UT. There were 50k last year and with Kubiak and possibly Bush that will increase demand. Yes there may be some Horns out there that pull their season tickets but the net new demand will outpace it. Most UT fans I know in Austin are Cowboys fans.

The Texans only need to sell 14-19k seats per game. Not a problem wiht VY or not.

Licensing/merchandising are a different matter and that is one that McNair calls. But lets face it, with growth at 30% from a valuation standpoint, 2003-2005, it is now time to put more value on the field and less worries about the other lines of business.

Texan Asylum
01-27-2006, 06:32 PM
Thanks alot Dr. Phil, ANy more Advice..

With a name like Asylum, would you think I'm a Doc? A yes one piece of advice...Have a Nice Day!:)

swtbound07
01-27-2006, 06:50 PM
I like parts of your argument because they are well written, and reading through your other threads, it seems clear to me that you have football/NFL knowledge, even if I don't agree with your take on Young. That said,

(a) QB is the single most important position out of 21 others, but it is hardly the end-all, be-all, requisite for success. The Ravens and the Bucs have both recently won Super Bowls on the strength of their defenses and running games while employing very average QBs who simply didn't screw the game up. Even Tom Brady, while decidedly a great QB, is a very unflashy, no-scrambling, not-strong-armed QB who just makes right decisions and comes up big in the clutch. Hasselback is as unflashy as they get, Delhomme the same, and Plummer is very comparable to Carr in virtually every respect of his game and the first four years of their careers. Perpetual bad *** Mr. Peyton Manning got smoked the first playoff game he played this year. If this does not give you pause to reevaluate your stance on the QB in the "vital" role of successful teams, I am not sure what else will. Important, sure, but hardly all consuming.

(2) Vick's limited success has come in streaks and his playoff runs amidst one of the very worst divisions/weakest schedules in the NFL. NFL defenses have figured him out and until he improves his reads and his accuracy, he is a one-trick pony. I would hardly tout Vick as much of an improvement over Carr.

(3) We have already been over the Portland/Sam Bowie thing on this board and it still isn't relevant. BPA is relevant in basketball (5 men on the court, easy to play two of one position at once) and even moreso in light of the different cap/contract structure in the NBA. In the NFL, in fielding eleven players on both sides of the ball and position skill being much more static, you have to draft by position needed, even if you and every GM and the queen of England are all sold on Vince being a first-ballot HOFer before the guy even takes an NFL snap.

(4) I know that your Yao Ming argument wasn't meant to be the crux of your post, but it completely nullifies that segment of it. Yao, even when healthy, has been a substantial disappointment from a production vs. potential standpoint: the 7'6" freak of nature that just hasn't lived up to expectations yet. When I go to Rockets games on my cheap seats it is easy to move into the VIP seats because THEY ARE ALL EMPTY. The Rockets are in the bottom of the West and have never made it far into the playoffs with Yao as their "franchise" center. Meanwhile, what would our home games look like if we were WINNING?

(5) Your avatar is cute, but I hate it because it supports Vince Young, and by association I have come to hate you.

Kidding, guys! Don't be mad. It's all good. I understand the appeal of Vince, and as much as there are a lot of valid reasons to take him, there are more not to.


i suppose it really depends on what you base success on....Vick has one of the highest winning percentages of any starting qb in the nfl, 2 sucessfull playoff runs, and several pro bowls. Vick might not put up guady statistics, but the statistic that matters is "W", and he puts up a lot of those

dcarey20
01-27-2006, 07:16 PM
we are chock full of young talent


you must be talking about Chester Pitts and Moran Norris

Grid
01-27-2006, 09:42 PM
DD, Johnson, Robinson, Mathis, Orr, Peek, Pitts, Hodgdon, Norris, Gaffney, Brown, Earl, TJ, Wells, Morency