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Texans Horror
01-26-2006, 01:02 PM
There has been a lot of press going on about Indian mascots. Personally, I don't think they are meant to be offensive. A team name is something you rally around, not something you degrade. So Washington Redskins, FSU Seminoles, and the like have never bothered me.

However, there is one team mascot that I have always thought was in really low class. The Texas Tech Red Raider. I have tried to research it, and have found nothing to say why it is a Red Raider. However, there was a Col. Mackenzie, who was famed for his raids on various indian tribes throughout West Texas. He does have the handlebar moustache like the Yosemite Sam-looking Raider mascot. IMO, Red Raider is the most prejudiced name out there because it celebrates the killing of native americans tribes. These raids were infamous for their attacks on indian women, children, and the elderly. It was Mackenzie's M.O.

I don't have any links yet, but I'll try to post some later. I would appreciate it if anyone had any evidence one way or the other as to the origin of the Red Raider mascot.

infantrycak
01-26-2006, 01:17 PM
Or it could have nothing to do with Indians:

It wasn't until 1936 that Texas Tech fans and students came to be called "Red Raiders." Collier Parrish, sports editor of the Lubbock Morning Avalanche, gave the team its new nickname because of their all-red uniforms and rigorous coast-to-coast schedule. 1936 was also the year of the first unofficial "Red Raider," now called the Masked Rider.

George Tate '37 shocked football fans when he and a trusty palomino named Tony or Silver, depending on where you look, led the football team onto the football field then just as quickly fled the scene. Tate, whose identity was kept a secret, borrowed a pair of cowboy boots from his roommate and sported a scarlet satin cape made by the Home Economics Department. He had been coaxed by pals to sneak a horse from the Tech barn and to make the first appearance as the mysterious Red Raider. Tate was quoted in the Nov. 4, 1984, issue of The Dallas Morning News as saying that Arch Lamb, who was then the head yell leader of the Saddle Tramps, "dreamed up this Red Raider thing." The prank was pulled a few more times that season but didn't surface again until the 1950s, when another Tech student was approached about creating a mascot.

Their previous name was the Matadors by the way.

Link (http://www.campuslife.ttu.edu/MaskedRider/history.asp)

Peldon
01-26-2006, 01:39 PM
I think Infantrycak answered it pretty well but here is some more info...

Interestingly, Texas Tech was almost nicknamed the Dogies, as suggested by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. But the first athletic teams became known as the Matadors, instead, thanks to the head coach's wife. Mrs. Ewing Young Freeland preferred Matadors because of the Spanish architectural influence on campus. The college colors of scarlet and black and team name of Matadors were adopted by students on March 15, 1926, during a convocation. The teams remained as Matadors until 1936 when Red Raiders was adopted. The name-change from Matadors to Red Raiders came from Lubbock Avalanche-Journal sports writer Collier Parris, reflecting on their red uniforms and a strong season. Covering a football game in 1932, he wrote: "The Red Raiders from Texas Tech, terror of the Southwest this year, swooped in the New Mexico University camp today." The name caught on and by 1936, the Matadors had faded into history, replaced by the Red Raiders.

http://texastech.collegesports.com/trads/text-m-fb-atoz.html

Long-Spurs-Texan
01-26-2006, 01:45 PM
It's a pretty simple debate IMO. If Native Americans find it offensive, it needs to be changed. If there was a team called the Baltimore BLACKSKINS, what would the feelings be then? How about the San Francisco Yellow Faces?

infantrycak
01-26-2006, 01:51 PM
It's a pretty simple debate IMO. If Native Americans find it offensive, it needs to be changed. If there was a team called the Baltimore BLACKSKINS, what would the feelings be then? How about the San Francisco Yellow Faces?

Did you read the history of the name even? It has nothing to do with Indians so why should anyone give a flip if a few are wrongfully offended.

This mascot debate has always seemed like one of the stupidest PC debates ever. People/teams don't pick mascots because they dislike them otherwise our football team would by the Houston Yankees or the Houston Dallasites. Folks pick mascots out of admiration for some quality they have. It is a sign of respect for indians that so many sporting teams use them as mascots.

chuckm
01-26-2006, 02:01 PM
It's a pretty simple debate IMO. If Native Americans find it offensive, it needs to be changed. If there was a team called the Baltimore BLACKSKINS, what would the feelings be then? How about the San Francisco Yellow Faces?


oh jeeeez ... :rolleyes: ... after reading this post I'm ready for some nice Carr Sucks or Draft Vince talk ....

Errant Hothy
01-26-2006, 02:08 PM
It's a pretty simple debate IMO. If Native Americans find it offensive, it needs to be changed. If there was a team called the Baltimore BLACKSKINS, what would the feelings be then? How about the San Francisco Yellow Faces?

Umm...NO!

It dosn't refrence any group of people, except the football team.

Damn, and t-sips and ags wonder why some of us Tech grads are so damn defensive. I swear I've dealt with this a dozen times since the NCAA ruling.:brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall:

Runner
01-26-2006, 03:10 PM
A few years ago the Indian tribes picketed some baseball teams, including the Cincinnati Reds. Of course, their full name is the Redlegs, derived from Red Stockings - like Red Socks. Oops.

Texans Horror
01-26-2006, 03:16 PM
I'm glad to see the angry indian thread is getting some discussion. Let me add some Texas history to the fire:

http://www.lubbockisd.org/mackenzie/

I know this isn't "Red Raider," but the Mackenzie Raiders, at least, are a direct descendent of this issue.

"Mackenzie Junior High School was founded in 1963. The school was named for Colonel Ranald S. Mackenzie, who commanded troops in this area during the late 1800s."

Founded after Tech. Based on Mackenzie.

Second:
http://www.mobeetie.com/pages/rrwar.htm

Has a bad picture of Mackenzie, but you can see him with his famed moustache. Cites his slaughter of indian horse to overtake the Kiowa, Commanche, etc.

Third:
There are other points of interest in Lubbock, like Mackenzie State Park, which I assume are named for the same guy.

Fourth:
Still looking for a link to another slaughter he led in West Texas.

To think that with all this in context, that it was based on a matador? I'll give you that the sports writer came up with it, but this all sounds pretty made up.

texanmojo
01-26-2006, 04:24 PM
I'm so glad I wasted my time on this thread. As a former student of TT, I think this is just absolutely rediculous. Can't we find something else to discuss?

Errant Hothy
01-26-2006, 04:28 PM
Dude shut up beforer you make a bigger fool out of you self then you already have.

Have you been to Tech, or even Lubbock for that matter? As somebody has already posted teh orignal campus is all light/sand colored bricks with red tile roof. A very Sapinish influece.

http://www.techdelts.com/images/Texas-Tech/Texas-Tech-campus-building.jpg

As for teh moronic looking Yosemite sam knock off, he isn't even the offical mascot. The Masked Rider is the mascot, with the Doule T being teh offical logo.

http://texastech.collegesports.com/

You see the stupid looking cartoon guy on teh main page? I though not

I mean the Cornhuskers have a cartoon ocharacter with blonde hair and blue eyes, and despite their name, I bet you think it's a refernce to teh Nazi's and teh Ayrian dream, right?

GIVE IT UP, YOU'RE WRONG ON THIS.

http://www.answers.com/topic/texas-tech-university

The cartoon guy came about in the 70's, long after the original Matador ( which is still the wording used in teh fight song), and long after the progression to Red Raiders.

texanmojo
01-26-2006, 04:30 PM
GIVE IT UP, YOU'RE WRONG ON THIS.

Thanks...well put!

ledzeppelin229
01-26-2006, 04:36 PM
This post is meant on the topic in general not specifically the TT subject.
-----
A lot of terrible things happened in earlier America. (For that matter, a lot of terrible things still do). I'm sure we can pull other things that "Team names" did that hurt others. Those Yankees killed some Brits back during the Revolution, maybe even in some nasty ways in some cases. Umm, Cowboys killed some Indians, and that probably included Texans killing some as well. Orioles probably killed a few little insects. I hope the fruit fly isn't offended.

I'm not trying to make light of this(OK, maybe I am), but really I just don't see the big deal. Teams have "Indian" names out of respect for their courage and prowess in battle and all that other stuff. I don't think we'd call ourselves the "Houston Texans" or "New York Yankees" if team names were supposed to belittle anyone in anyway.

Peldon
01-26-2006, 04:45 PM
Texas Tech's name doesn't have anything to do with Native Americans in the first place. Even if the use of Native American symbols or names as mascots upsets you, which is fine, Tech's mascot doesn't originate from that.

Texans Horror
01-26-2006, 05:14 PM
Dude shut up beforer you make a bigger fool out of you self then you already have.

Have you been to Tech, or even Lubbock for that matter? As somebody has already posted teh orignal campus is all light/sand colored bricks with red tile roof. A very Sapinish influece.

http://www.techdelts.com/images/Texas-Tech/Texas-Tech-campus-building.jpg

As for teh moronic looking Yosemite sam knock off, he isn't even the offical mascot. The Masked Rider is the mascot, with the Doule T being teh offical logo.

http://texastech.collegesports.com/

You see the stupid looking cartoon guy on teh main page? I though not

I mean the Cornhuskers have a cartoon ocharacter with blonde hair and blue eyes, and despite their name, I bet you think it's a refernce to teh Nazi's and teh Ayrian dream, right?

GIVE IT UP, YOU'RE WRONG ON THIS.

http://www.answers.com/topic/texas-tech-university

The cartoon guy came about in the 70's, long after the original Matador ( which is still the wording used in teh fight song), and long after the progression to Red Raiders.

Well said! Looks like instead of a bunch of angry indians, I got a bunch of angry raider fans...sorry guys...just pass on this one...

Listen, I am from Lubbock, I attended Tech one summer, and I used to read a collection of Dirk West's cartoons over and over, so I'm not trying to blow steam. I think there is a connection. Tech's official word says is that all their mascots just flew out of the heads of various AJ writers/cartoonists. But they had to get their idea from somewhere. I just don't buy the line that somebody connected a red uniform to a raider when there is a lot of historical evidence to support that there was a Col. Mackenzie in West Texas who slaughtered Kiowas, Commanches, etc. He and his men were known as the raiders. And so it is just coincidence that these writers living in this area went from red to red raider without any knowledge of this? We have our opinions, but IMHO, I think I know where the influence came.

Let me put it another way: Why not Reds? Red Sox? Red Shirts? Why a Red Raider?

Errant Hothy
01-26-2006, 05:27 PM
We have our opinions, but IMHO, I think I know where the influence came.

Welcome to a minority of one. You are the first , only and most likely last person I have ever heard tyr yo make this claim.

Let me put it another way: Why not Reds? Red Sox? Red Shirts? Why a Red Raider?

Becasue Reds was taken as was Red Sox, and since a professional juornialist came up with the name, Red Raiders rolls much easier off teh tounge then Red Shirts (besides the fact Red Shirts is stupid, and no a term assicoate with Star Trek)

Texans Horror
01-26-2006, 05:39 PM
Here is some more about Mackenzie.

In 1873, with no authority from Mexico and in violation of international law, Col. Randal S. Mackenzie led his Fourth Cavalry in the infamous “Mackenzie's Raid” on a Kickapoo village in Mexico. Most able-bodied men were on a hunting expedition and elders, the ill, women, and children inhabited the village. All were killed or taken prisoner. The prosperous village was utterly destroyed: “ruin and desolation now marked the spot - a cyclone could not have made more havoc or a cleaner sweep.”

The hostages taken at Mackenzie's Raid were used to entice other traditional Kickapoo to remove to the Indian Territory, now Oklahoma.


Pulled it off this website:

http://www.futurocommunities.org/Region/maverickcounty.html

Another interesting tidbit is that there was a movie made that was called Mackenzie's Raiders about this history.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051292/

This is all more related to what Mackenzie did in West Texas border towns. I'll see if I can pull more stuff (later) about his work in Palo Duro/West Texas.

I am trying to set up that there is something more to this red raider thing than that this idea just came flying out of a few people's minds. It is local history.

To me, to say that these people just made up these characters is like saying that somebody in Tennessee dreamed up the Volunteer or that Minute Men were dreamed up.

infantrycak
01-26-2006, 05:52 PM
Not to concede Mackenzie has anything to do with TT, but as usual there are two sides to the story. Mackenzie was not entirely an indian hater as you are making out:

Mackenzie used his office at Fort Sill to assist the Indians when possible, giving them Army rations when the Indians had no food and escorting hunting parties on buffalo hunts to prevent harassment from settlers and troublemakers.

Link (http://www.texanalivinghistory.org/mackenziebio.html)

On September 28, 1874, Mackenzie bottled up a large force of Kiowas, Comanches, and Cheyennes in upper Palo Duro Canyon. Attacking at dawn down the steep cliff walls, Mackenzie's men concentrated not on killing warriors but on torching the Indians' possessions and capturing and killing their horses. More than 1100 horses were killed. This action destroyed the ability of the Indians to continue the war. Defeated, most of the Indians reluctantly surrendered and returned to the reservations in Indian Territory.

Link (http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/exhibits/indian/showdown/page3.html)

With time we can step back and say the US was wrong in its dealings with the indians, but let's not retroactively go back and try to paint everyone involved as murdering scum. Apply the same standard and you will find plenty of misconduct by indians as well.

As a trivia aside--the 1st Medal of Honor awarded to a black man was awarded to a soldier figting indians at Ft. Mckavitt, Texas (near Junction west of San Antonio a couple hours). Men fought honorably and well on both sides. I for one am not inclined to revisit history and act like everyone on any side of a conflict was all bad or beyond recognizing for their conduct within the context of the time.

Huge
01-26-2006, 06:34 PM
Some Native American groups don't want their name used in this manner. What might not be offensive to you may be offensive to others. Would it be okay if I spit in your face because I didn't think it was an offensive act and dismissed what you thought about it?

The University of North Dakota is a good example. The "Fighting Sioux" did not have the support of the local Sioux tribe. So they're part of the list of schools that will be banned from post-season play until they either change their name (likely) or get approval from the tribe (unlikely).

Same thing is going on here in Wichita Falls. The Midwestern University Indians will be known as the Mustangs at the end of this season.

Florida State is an example of the opposite end. The Seminole tribes in Florida whole-heartedly support the name. They even make the costume the mascot that rides the horse wears.

swisher
01-26-2006, 07:43 PM
I'm a Texan...I'm offended by the Houston Texans name. If it offends me, then it should be changed, right?

Now apply that to Native Americans....have they actually ever taken a poll or a vote? Or is it a few individuals that are speaking for the majority when they say they are offended.

Just as I cannot speak for all Texans, a few Native Americans shouldn't be able to speak for all Native Americans....except that's exactly what they are doing.

Texans Horror
01-26-2006, 08:03 PM
Not to concede Mackenzie has anything to do with TT, but as usual there are two sides to the story. Mackenzie was not entirely an indian hater as you are making out:



Link (http://www.texanalivinghistory.org/mackenziebio.html)



Link (http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/exhibits/indian/showdown/page3.html)

With time we can step back and say the US was wrong in its dealings with the indians, but let's not retroactively go back and try to paint everyone involved as murdering scum. Apply the same standard and you will find plenty of misconduct by indians as well.

As a trivia aside--the 1st Medal of Honor awarded to a black man was awarded to a soldier figting indians at Ft. Mckavitt, Texas (near Junction west of San Antonio a couple hours). Men fought honorably and well on both sides. I for one am not inclined to revisit history and act like everyone on any side of a conflict was all bad or beyond recognizing for their conduct within the context of the time.

Good points, and yes, there are always two sides to any story. Some would say that attacking women, children, horses, etc. is cowardly. Others would say it is a very good war strategy. Mackenzie did capture some very elusive tribes.

I also like your trivia. Along these lines, I have always felt it was a bit ironic that buffalo soldiers were used to track down indian tribes.

Texans Horror
01-26-2006, 08:10 PM
I'm a Texan...I'm offended by the Houston Texans name. If it offends me, then it should be changed, right?

Now apply that to Native Americans....have they actually ever taken a poll or a vote? Or is it a few individuals that are speaking for the majority when they say they are offended.

Just as I cannot speak for all Texans, a few Native Americans shouldn't be able to speak for all Native Americans....except that's exactly what they are doing.

Along the lines of polls/voting, if there are only a few thousand full-blooded Commanche left in the world, then, statistically speaking, that one person holds a lot more influence over what those people "think." Especially when compared to a person like me, who has millions of other people of my ethnic background in America.

Runner
01-26-2006, 08:20 PM
I only have one question after reading this entire thread - do they teach spelling at TT? :)

Errant Hothy
01-26-2006, 08:33 PM
I only have one question after reading this entire thread - do they teach spelling at TT? :)

Nope. Nor do they teach typing in Lubbock.:confused: :goodbad:

Texans Horror
01-26-2006, 08:41 PM
The University of North Dakota is a good example. The "Fighting Sioux" did not have the support of the local Sioux tribe. So they're part of the list of schools that will be banned from post-season play until they either change their name (likely) or get approval from the tribe (unlikely).

Hmmm...would you be familiar with the Fighting Whities?

www.cafepress.com/fightinwhite

Edit: Link wasn't working for fightingwhites.org, so I changed it to the store link.

Yvette
01-26-2006, 09:26 PM
Just as I cannot speak for all Texans, a few Native Americans shouldn't be able to speak for all Native Americans....except that's exactly what they are doing.
I'm sure a few would like to think they do but rest assured they aren't. Each tribe is autonomous unless they claim affiliation such as the Five Civilized Tribes, etc.