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View Full Version : Trade Carr? What's best for the team?


Nighthawk
01-24-2006, 12:05 AM
I was thinking maybe the BEST USE of Carr for this team would be what he could pull in trade, draft choices and players. But now I begin to get a sense that he isn't worth all that much on the market.

I mean, if you could get a first and second round pick for him (is that ridiculous?) wouldn't it be worth trading him since we're 2-3 years rebuilding anyway?

This is what I don't really understand about the Carr fans. If you're Texans fans first, then what you want is what's best for the franchise. And, since we're rebuilding and do not expect to contend for 3 years anyway, why wouldn't you trade Carr for some draft picks and/or young players you could use to build the team.

I'm asking why wouldn't you put the team first, Carr second?

Mr. White
01-24-2006, 12:15 AM
According to this Miami Herald article, no team will take his contract. No one thinks he's worth $24.5 million the next 3 years. They quote an NFL source that says "his contract isn't tradeable."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/13680415.htm

Napa Auto Parts
01-24-2006, 12:22 AM
Its hard to say to be honest with you i feel if we trade carr and if we are able to get a second rounder for him i think we come out smelling like roses. its sad what happened to carr he was supposed to be good but what the scouts forgot is that he never faced nobody in college that is why he did so good his senior season. i think back thinking we could of had peppers J Peppers and we dont and thats what hurts the most out of all of this. i really dont think there are any carr haters i just think people dislike him because he has been a major bust and we could of had J Peppers. oh but i went off topic may be? if its for the best interest of the team hell yeah trade carr may be we can salvage something with that aswfull 1st overall pick of this franchise.

beerlover
01-24-2006, 12:46 AM
we'll never get fair value for David it makes more sense to keep him, try to rebuild his value back with better coaching & complimentry players. As similar as he is to Plummer he too could take a team to the Superbowl because I feel at the same point in their careers he still rates higher in most areas :pigfly:

Glacier
01-24-2006, 11:51 AM
we'll never get fair value for David

What exactly is fair value for a QB who went 2-14 in his 4th year as a pro?

That just shows you what other NFL talent evaluators think of Carr.


I know, I know...

the Carr loyalists will come out in herds saying, "o but his talent level around him." or "Omg His OL" or "he had bad coaching"

Thing is, there has to be some player accountability too. How much accountability has he accepted? Why don't his teammates rally around him? Why is there a culture of losing forming around his leadership?


Now, sure, I want Vince Young here. Not so much because he is Vince Young, but because with the #1 pick in the draft, you want the person you are drafting to be a primary handler of the ball. If Leinhart gives the Texans a better long term positive outlook for the future, by all means draft him. I just simply don't believe in Carr and I don't know that his teammates do either.

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 12:08 PM
I mean, if you could get a first and second round pick for him (is that ridiculous?) wouldn't it be worth trading him since we're 2-3 years rebuilding anyway?


I'm asking why wouldn't you put the team first, Carr second?

Most Carr supporters don't see this as a total rebuild. We've got some useful talent. The O-Line can run block, we've got three Hosses, DD, Wells, and Morency. We've got a #1 reciever, a #2 reciever, and a #3 reciever. We've got a Corner, a linebacker, and maybe a hidden Gem on the D-line, who needs a little help. Wow, after typing that, I realize we only need a quarterback, and we're good to go.


But in order to "trade" David, We've got to Sign David. Then this second Rounder is going to have to be worth a former #1 (who some people won't call a bust yet), the $5.5 million cap hit he is going to cost us, plus whatever we agree to pay this second round draft pick.

Personally for that kind of hit the only thing I'd take for Carr, would be Ricky Williams.... he's the only one I see as worth the hit. On the field.. his mind is so flaky, and what he does off field is questionable... so....

We could take Kerry Collins, and that young reciever a few fans are interested in, Get rid of Banks, and that will probably be worth it.

TEXANFAN23435
01-24-2006, 03:43 PM
Why would you trade Carr??? I can absolutely live with this guys stats!!!! Simple math says that behind a horrible Offensive and I mean OFFENSIVE Line he has still managed to throw for 6,019 yds. ( 04-05 ); completed 60.9% ( Avg. ) of his passes; 30 TD's; 25 int's; 80.4 ( Avg. ) QB Rating and did this while absorbing 117 SACKS ( 04-05 ). Thank god they don't keep track of hurries and dropped passes!!!!! We didn't have a 1,000 yard rusher this year and AJ, our only real WR was out early and only accounted for 688 yds. receiving and 2 TD's this year.

I can only admire Carr for not pulling a Peyton Manning after each game and throwing his lousy a-- OL under the bus. Manning endured 1 game where his OL failed him and he came apart at the seams!!!! Where do you think Manning's mind would be if he had to endure that for 64 games plus 16 pre-season games????? I wonder how fast DADDY could get him out of Indy???? This is why Carr has the respect of his teammates and the only people throwing him under the bus are a percentage of the fans, who just don't get it!!!

I'm sorry, my vote stays with Carr and I only hope, that between D. Reeves, Kubiak and CC they can finally find a way to put some HEALTHY weapons and protection around Carr so we can really get a read on him. For now, there isn't another QB, who could have, under these circumstances, come in here and won big ( By big, I mean 5-8 wins ) with this supporting cast.

rmartin65
01-24-2006, 03:47 PM
Kubiak should see what Carr can do. He has a good record with qb's, I want to see what he thinks of Carr.

TEXANFAN23435
01-24-2006, 03:59 PM
Kubiak and Reeves have both gone on record as being Carr supporters.

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 04:32 PM
Why would you trade Carr??? I can absolutely live with this guys stats!!!! Simple math says that behind a horrible Offensive and I mean OFFENSIVE Line he has still managed to throw for 6,019 yds. ( 04-05 ); completed 60.9% ( Avg. ) of his passes; 30 TD's; 25 int's; 80.4 ( Avg. ) QB Rating and did this while absorbing 117 SACKS ( 04-05 ). Thank god they don't keep track of hurries and dropped passes!!!!! We didn't have a 1,000 yard rusher this year and AJ, our only real WR was out early and only accounted for 688 yds. receiving and 2 TD's this year.

I can only admire Carr for not pulling a Peyton Manning after each game and throwing his lousy a-- OL under the bus. Manning endured 1 game where his OL failed him and he came apart at the seams!!!! Where do you think Manning's mind would be if he had to endure that for 64 games plus 16 pre-season games????? I wonder how fast DADDY could get him out of Indy???? This is why Carr has the respect of his teammates and the only people throwing him under the bus are a percentage of the fans, who just don't get it!!!

I'm sorry, my vote stays with Carr and I only hope, that between D. Reeves, Kubiak and CC they can finally find a way to put some HEALTHY weapons and protection around Carr so we can really get a read on him. For now, there isn't another QB, who could have, under these circumstances, come in here and won big ( By big, I mean 5-8 wins ) with this supporting cast.


Good post, I'm with you. Let's trade down. But if you just have to use the pick, take Vince........ the bold letters explain why.

Or trade down, and take cutler..... that darn senior bowl has got me seriously looking at him too.

nunusguy
01-24-2006, 04:46 PM
I can only admire Carr for not pulling a Peyton Manning after each game and throwing his lousy a-- OL under the bus.
I agree with your thought here Texan. And I think it tells us something about
the Carr psyche - he is so use to getting beat up and has such low expectations about his line actually protecting him, that unlike Manning who is accustomed to the luxury of consistant pass protection from his OL and has an outburst on a day it isn't there, he routinely takes one for the team every Sunday and doesn't complaim post-game. He does have some childest outbursts on the field now and then (on which all the Carr antagonists point to a lack of "leadership"), but this is a far better way to vent his frustrations
than blasting the OL in TV interviews.

infantrycak
01-24-2006, 04:53 PM
He does have some childest outbursts on the field now and then (on which all the Carr antagonists point to a lack of "leadership"), but this is a far better way to vent his frustrations than blasting the OL in TV interviews.

This is a funny one IMO. Folks were critical of Carr not getting in his OL's face for quite a while. Then he does it a couple of times and he is behaving childishly according to many of the same folks. His little outburst after the horrible 3rd qtr of the Chicago game seemed to have quite an impact on the OL in 2004. Classic case of not going to get it right either way.

Nighthawk
01-24-2006, 07:51 PM
The point is, even if Carr is good, WE DON'T NEED HIM RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE HE'S WORTH SOMETHING IN TRADE. Sorry for the caps, but everyone seems to miss this point. If Carr is as good as folks around here say then he ought to bring a fair amt in trade. You've got Banks, a solid vet and the untried Ragone sitting on the bench. You're not going to contend for 2 years anyway, maybe 3 AND YOU NEED EXTRA DRAFT PICKS AND/OR TOP QUALITY PLAYERS.

The simplest solution is trade Carr for picks and speed up the rebuilding. I'd use DD this way if he was worth anything, but I don't imagine he is. What really worries me is that maybe Carr isn't worth much in trade either.

dat_boy_yec
01-24-2006, 07:52 PM
In reply to the very first post. What is you're deal, you want to contend in 2 or 3 yrs. I want our team to be mentioned in wild card discussions next yr. You wanna know what's best for the team, wins, and I for one don't want to wait a few yrs. for them, the sooner the better. I could care less if Young won games a few yrs. down the road. I want wins next yr. and you know what I don't think Young would be able to give that to us. Also we don't know what will happen next yr. in the draft or maybe just maybe we end up with Young later on in his career a la Kubiak. So please stop acting like we are in desperate need of rebuilding. We have a good team and with the coaching there will be dramatic improvement.

dat_boy_yec
01-24-2006, 07:57 PM
The point is, even if Carr is good, WE DON'T NEED HIM RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE HE'S WORTH SOMETHING IN TRADE. Sorry for the caps, but everyone seems to miss this point. If Carr is as good as folks around here say then he ought to bring a fair amt in trade. You've got Banks, a solid vet and the untried Ragone sitting on the bench. You're not going to contend for 2 years anyway, maybe 3 AND YOU NEED EXTRA DRAFT PICKS AND/OR TOP QUALITY PLAYERS.

The simplest solution is trade Carr for picks and speed up the rebuilding. I'd use DD this way if he was worth anything, but I don't imagine he is. What really worries me is that maybe Carr isn't worth much in trade either.

The simplest solution would be to let him go in free agency. You would get screwed in a trade because the other team would have more leverage due to his exorbrant contract. Banks and solid vet. shouldn't. Those two words just don't belong together. Ragone yes you're right he is untried, but shamesticks on you for your lack of faith in you're team.

Texans_Chick
01-24-2006, 09:11 PM
I don't think the author necessarily figured out whether this potential trade was feasible under the cap or contracts but I am offering it up to the MB because the title of the article is perhaps the repulsive headline ever on the Bush v. Young debate or maybe in all of sportswriting evaaaar ........


Link: "Solution to Texans’ problems lost in their nose hairs?" (http://fp.uni.edu/northia/article2.asp?ID=4351&SECTION=4)


Ew. Nose hairs. Is this what they are teaching in journalism classes these days?????

The article in part:

USC’s Reggie Bush is a good football player. That’s like saying Lance Armstrong can ride a bike.

I understand how tempting Bush’s Heisman Trophy, 8.7 yards per carry and the reputation of being the greatest college running back in 30 years can be to a team like the Texans. A team that went 2-14 this season is bound to see an athlete like Bush and salivate enough to hold an Olympic swim meet. Nevertheless, the Texans really don’t need a running back, even one with as much potential as Bush. Houston’s rushing attack, led by Dominick Davis, averaged 4.2 yards per carry and 113.5 yards per game – good enough for 11th and 15th in the league, respectively.

The Texans’ offensive line gave up 68 sacks this season and only allowed quarterback David Carr to throw for 2,488 yards and 14 touchdowns, both ranked in the last third of the league.

If only Houston knew where to find a quarterback that could compensate for a mediocre line with his quickness but still had the ability to throw for 250-300 yards per game. You know, the guy who torched Bush’s USC team for 267 passing yards and 200 rushing yards in the national championship declared himself eligible for the draft. Boy, it would be nice to have him, but I doubt people in Texas would care enough to want him to go play there.

Wait … he played at Texas, didn’t he? People there loved him, didn’t they? And his name isn’t “the guy.” It’s Vince Young, and he’s the key for Houston to become a winning franchise.

With a fan base already established and his incredible college accomplishments, Young is the obvious choice for the franchise to rebuild from, both in terms of winning and financially. People will flock to Reliant Stadium to see their in-state hero lead their team out of the NFL cellar and into respectability.

The team recently signed Carr to an extension through 2008, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t become trade bait for another early pick in the draft. The New York Jets could use a good quarterback, and they have the fourth pick. Trading Carr for that is a great move, as the Texans could fix their main problem: the offensive line



There should never be a reason why a sportswriter should use the words "nose hairs" in a headline or article. Ever. Even if you are in college and it cracks your own self up. Or if you have been drinking, or have a deadline or something. I won't even mention the cheesy beginning of the article.

(Sorry to be cracking on a northren Texans fan tho. :texflag:)

Lucky
01-24-2006, 11:02 PM
I don't think the Texans will trade David Carr. I don't want the Texans to trade David Carr. But, that's beside the point. It would be stooopid for the Texans to trade David Carr. Let me explain.

In order to trade David Carr, the Texans must first pickup the option on his contract by paying David either an $8 million or a $5.5 million bonus. As explained to me by Keith Weiland of houstonprofootball.com, part of Carr's bonus can be spread over the past 2005 season as the Texans had cap room from last season available. If the $8 mil bonus were picked up, Carr would be under contract for 3 seasons. But the bonus can be spread out over 4, or $2 million/season.

Now the Texans could just choose the 2-year option, which would pay Carr a bonus of $5.5 mil. That bonus would be spread out over 3 seasons, or $1.833 million/season. But, possible trade suitors would offer the Texans less for a player under contract for 2 seasons, as opposed to 3. So let's pose the question: Could the Texans get more value in trade for Carr than they could if the bonus money was used for free agents?

If Carr is traded this offseason, after the 3 year option is picked up, the unamoritized portion of the bonus ($6 million) becomes due against the cap. What could the Texans get for David. A 3rd round pick? A second round selection & a pot smoking holistic healer? A mid-1st rounder? Opinions vary. But would whatever David retrieve in trade be worth more than what the Texans could pick up with an extra $6 million in cap room? That's what the Texans would have free if the option is not picked up and David is allowed to become a free agent. This is just my opinion, but I think the club could be improved more with vet free agents than anything the Texans could get in trade for Carr.

It's been proposed by NFL.com, among others, that Carr could be franchised and then traded. Yeah, that's possible. The numbers for the QB franchise tag aren't out yet. But, it's reasonable for that number to shoot up to 8 figures, considering the big extensions that Manning, Vick, & Brady have picked up in the past year. So Carr's cap number for the Texans, or any team that traded for him, would likely be over $10 million for the '06 season. Of course the team that trades for David could give him a longer-term contract, but why would Carr agree to that? He'd already be getting a big payday in '06, and another shot at free agency in '07 when the salary cap may have gone away. No team trades for Carr if he comes with a $10 mil cap hit. Basically, Carr would have a no trade one-year contract for whatever the franchise tag number is. Franchising Carr is a no go.

So the Carr question is answered two fold. Give David the bonus and continue to build around him through the draft. Or cut #8 loose now, draft a QB, and hit the free agent market. Trading in Carr is not a viable option.

AustinJB
01-24-2006, 11:18 PM
I don't think the Texans will trade David Carr. I don't want the Texans to trade David Carr. But, that's beside the point. It would be stooopid for the Texans to trade David Carr. Let me explain.

In order to trade David Carr, the Texans must first pickup the option on his contract by paying David either an $8 million or a $5.5 million bonus. As explained to me by Keith Weiland of houstonprofootball.com, part of Carr's bonus can be spread over the past 2005 season as the Texans had cap room from last season available. If the $8 mil bonus were picked up, Carr would be under contract for 3 seasons. But the bonus can be spread out over 4, or $2 million/season.

Now the Texans could just choose the 2-year option, which would pay Carr a bonus of $5.5 mil. That bonus would be spread out over 3 seasons, or $1.833 million/season. But, possible trade suitors would offer the Texans less for a player under contract for 2 seasons, as opposed to 3. So let's pose the question: Could the Texans get more value in trade for Carr than they could if the bonus money was used for free agents?

If Carr is traded this offseason, after the 3 year option is picked up, the unamoritized portion of the bonus ($6 million) becomes due against the cap. What could the Texans get for David. A 3rd round pick? A second round selection & a pot smoking holistic healer? A mid-1st rounder? Opinions vary. But would whatever David retrieve in trade be worth more than what the Texans could pick up with an extra $6 million in cap room? That's what the Texans would have free if the option is not picked up and David is allowed to become a free agent. This is just my opinion, but I think the club could be improved more with vet free agents than anything the Texans could get in trade for Carr.

It's been proposed by NFL.com, among others, that Carr could be franchised and then traded. Yeah, that's possible. The numbers for the QB franchise tag aren't out yet. But, it's reasonable for that number to shoot up to 8 figures, considering the big extensions that Manning, Vick, & Brady have picked up in the past year. So Carr's cap number for the Texans, or any team that traded for him, would likely be over $10 million for the '06 season. Of course the team that trades for David could give him a longer-term contract, but why would Carr agree to that? He'd already be getting a big payday in '06, and another shot at free agency in '07 when the salary cap may have gone away. No team trades for Carr if he comes with a $10 mil cap hit. Basically, Carr would have a no trade one-year contract for whatever the franchise tag number is. Franchising Carr is a no go.

So the Carr question is answered two fold. Give David the bonus and continue to build around him through the draft. Or cut #8 loose now, draft a QB, and hit the free agent market. Trading in Carr is not a viable option.

The only problem I see w/ this is.....Hypothetically, what if we give Carr the bonus and sign him for 3 more years, he still sucks, and we let him leave through FA after his contract is up. What do you get for him then? Possibly three more losing or mediocre seasons. How good would that 3rd round, 2nd round, Ricky Williams, or mid-1st round pick look then?

My point is, the Texans must decide if they want to take a chance to see if Carr can improve OR take a chance to see if a new QB can grow and lead the team more capable than Carr. If they feel that Carr may not cut it, then the decision should be simple: cut your losses and trade him now while there is still a chance to get SOME value for him. The fact that you will be losing some money is irrelevant b/c if it doesn't work out, you'll be losinig ALL the money w/ nothing to show for it. Of course, wouldn't be the first time in four years that they have wasted money and got nothing in return.

BradK10
01-24-2006, 11:28 PM
Well what's funny is, after 2004, no one was bitching, but after 2005 where everyone sucked, all of a sudden he's shown us nothing?

TreWardTxn
01-24-2006, 11:58 PM
All this NFL accounting is explained very well, but the bottom line is, if the Texans decide to take a QB to replace him, then Carr has to go. No they will not get fair value, which would be at least a first round pick, but its a strategy called folding your hand and cutting losses. Deciding to stick with Carr because of his salary and potential cap hit is the worst decision this frachise can make. Carr needs to go to a new team, with new teammates who he can earn the trust of. Everyone wants to compare his situation to Jake Plummer's, but it is quite different. Jake went from a losing team to a winning team, new fans, teammates, expectations, he got a second chance as an NFL QB. Attempting to reform Carr here is not the same, too much baggage. I think the guy can be a good QB, just likely not for the Texans, sad as that is. The team does not have the winning tradition yet, it is building that, along with building the team, as opposed to tweaking. If you change the defense twice in two years, you are at least another two years away from any sort of championship games, much less, the playoffs. Kubiak can help a QB with mechanics and progressions, I don't know how good he is at psychology. Find a clean slate and get a new start at it...

Drew Brees came to the Chargers when they were in the NFL basement, he's been to a Pro bowl, the Texans are yet to do anything, what's wrong with this...

infantrycak
01-25-2006, 12:07 AM
Drew Brees came to the Chargers when they were in the NFL basement, he's been to a Pro bowl, the Texans are yet to do anything, what's wrong with this...

Alex, for $1000 I will take, what is the absence of Hudson Houck, Wade Phillips, LaDainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates?

kbourda
01-25-2006, 01:19 AM
Well what's funny is, after 2004, no one was bitching, but after 2005 where everyone sucked, all of a sudden he's shown us nothing?

No, it's more along the same time that CC started to become a good GM. The time that Carr is going to be a super bowl champ with Coach Kubiak at the helm. And the time when "real Texans fans" knew about Reggie Bush. Face it, chief. Most people "read the chalk board material" wether we want to believe it or not. So actually, no it isn't funny. And BTW, people were complaning. The "honeymoon period" was still in effect. For most that is.

TEXANFAN23435
01-25-2006, 01:20 AM
You know, all this talk of trading or releasing Carr is for naught. Kubiak is our next HC and the decision will be his. So far, Kubiak is sold on Carr and feels comfortable having him lead this team. You know this makes CC sweat free because if Houston were to dump Carr that would just about blow out the candle on his 4 year tenure. Don't forget, Reeves is a Carr supporter as well and this is acknowledged with nothing on the line.

So to all the Carr naysayers, it's time to figure out what we need to put around Carr to help him become the QB we drafted because it appears he's here to stay. Go Texans.

kbourda
01-25-2006, 01:21 AM
No one thinks he's worth $24.5 million the next 3 years.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/13680415.htm


I hope the Texans are included in that thought.

TreWardTxn
01-25-2006, 01:31 AM
Alex, for $1000 I will take, what is the absence of Hudson Houck, Wade Phillips, LaDainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates?

No doubt, a big play TE is what we need. My point is guys like that are out there (Gates went undrafted). What in the world is the front office doing? I can't fault the Texans for drafting Joppru, but if dude can't get on the field, you've got to find SOMEBODY...

TreWardTxn
01-25-2006, 01:37 AM
You know, all this talk of trading or releasing Carr is for naught. Kubiak is our next HC and the decision will be his. So far, Kubiak is sold on Carr and feels comfortable having him lead this team. You know this makes CC sweat free because if Houston were to dump Carr that would just about blow out the candle on his 4 year tenure. Don't forget, Reeves is a Carr supporter as well and this is acknowledged with nothing on the line.

So to all the Carr naysayers, it's time to figure out what we need to put around Carr to help him become the QB we drafted because it appears he's here to stay. Go Texans.

All of that is coachspeak, we won't know for sure until March/April and there aren't any solid trade stories out there. What coach would say, 'I want to come to your team, but your QB is garbage and has to go.' Naw, he's gonna want to make the organization feel like he can win with what they've got. Plus, nobody in the organization is going to say they don't like Carr as a player or otherwise, he's a good guy off the field, and trashing his ability will kill any trade potential. He will play and flourish somewhere in this league, he isn't any Tim Couch...

Nighthawk
01-25-2006, 02:08 AM
I don't think the Texans will trade David Carr. I don't want the Texans to trade David Carr. But, that's beside the point. It would be stooopid for the Texans to trade David Carr. Let me explain.

In order to trade David Carr, the Texans must first pickup the option on his contract by paying David either an $8 million or a $5.5 million bonus. As explained to me by Keith Weiland of houstonprofootball.com, part of Carr's bonus can be spread over the past 2005 season as the Texans had cap room from last season available. If the $8 mil bonus were picked up, Carr would be under contract for 3 seasons. But the bonus can be spread out over 4, or $2 million/season.

Well presented, but I don't think money is the problem. I don't think cap hit makes ANY DIFFERENCE in this assessment. Sure, it'll be bad, but the cap is going only one way in the furture, and it's going to $95M this year, so we're not in big trouble if we have to take a cap hit.

What I was REALLY after out of Carr was the draft picks--the draft picks are much more useful than the money to be used on FA. We can get top talent in the draft and we will not pay out the nose like we will for FA.

THe real question is what is Carr worth in the trade? Could he be worth a low first round and a low second? The Miami rumor was Ricky and a third rounder. That was interesting because Ricky is still a strong young back (albeit a little wacky) and a good complement to DD, but the 3rd rounder was pretty low. Could Carr be worth 2 seconds? A single mid-first?

I'm thinking Carr is not the long term answer here, whether he's good or not so good, so let's see what we can get for him in trade that might really benefit the team right now.

Nighthawk
01-25-2006, 04:27 AM
You know, all this talk of trading or releasing Carr is for naught. Kubiak is our next HC and the decision will be his. So far, Kubiak is sold on Carr and feels comfortable having him lead this team. You know this makes CC sweat free because if Houston were to dump Carr that would just about blow out the candle on his 4 year tenure. Don't forget, Reeves is a Carr supporter as well and this is acknowledged with nothing on the line.

So to all the Carr naysayers, it's time to figure out what we need to put around Carr to help him become the QB we drafted because it appears he's here to stay. Go Texans.

This is the SIMPLE ANSWER and if that's the way the Texans & Kubiak want to go, it will be done. But it really seems to me this is almost obviously no longer the BEST ANSWER. As more and more options emerge between now and the draft, the problem gets more complex and the diverse benefits to the team and its future begin to look more and more attractive. This is no longer about Carr and Vince Young, but about the value of Carr staying and the value of Carr going. Carr fans need to take a hard look at the COST OF KEEPING Carr, not only in simple dollar terms, but also in terms of what opportunities are forfeited by keeping him.

If we were contending now, or close to contending, or if Carr had already proven himself a superior NFL QB, perhaps the question would not be so pressing.

chall8
01-25-2006, 10:00 AM
If Kubiak wants to see what David Carr can do then he needs to look no further than Jake Plummer.

Jake Plummer = David Carr

Neither are going to singlehandedly lose games for you (most of the time) and neither are going to singlehandedly win games for you.

Both share the same skills and limitations. Both have the ability to implode at any time, particularly in pressure games.

TEXANFAN23435
01-25-2006, 12:23 PM
Let's try something different here. First, we swap players. Second, the players being swapped are Carr and Big Ben. This swap happens in Big Ben's Rookie season, so both QB's have had two seasons with their new teams. Nothing else about these teams is changed but the starting QB's. Is Pittsburgh out of the Playoffs with Carr at the helm and is Houston on their way to the Playoffs because of Big Ben, this year??

Heck, try the same question with Atlanta and Michael Vick?? This way we swap for a QB who can run for his life!!!

Let's just say for arguments sake that Matt L. or Vince Y. had led the Texans this past season, (To be fair to Carr in this analysis, he started from day one.) are we better team with either one of these Rookie QB's???... or does the 68 sacks, no running threat and no receiving threats because of an injured non-productive AJ affect their season as well???... and to make it fair to ML or VY we can say they had the benefit of being here all 4 years as well.

Try and answer very honestly.

jerek
01-25-2006, 12:38 PM
What exactly is fair value for a QB who went 2-14 in his 4th year as a pro?

That just shows you what other NFL talent evaluators think of Carr.

(Calm myself)

That shows what one unnamed "NFL executive" thinks of Carr's contract. Read that sentence again and let it sink in.

I was thinking maybe the BEST USE of Carr for this team would be what he could pull in trade, draft choices and players. But now I begin to get a sense that he isn't worth all that much on the market.

I mean, if you could get a first and second round pick for him (is that ridiculous?) wouldn't it be worth trading him since we're 2-3 years rebuilding anyway?

This is what I don't really understand about the Carr fans. If you're Texans fans first, then what you want is what's best for the franchise. And, since we're rebuilding and do not expect to contend for 3 years anyway, why wouldn't you trade Carr for some draft picks and/or young players you could use to build the team.

I'm asking why wouldn't you put the team first, Carr second?

What annoys me about this post is that it isn't about "team" so much as it is a thinly veiled attempt to form a leading question for drafting Vince Young.

I guess if "Carr fans" thought he was a bad player, or worth trading, then we "team-minded" fans would be for it. Trouble is, I don't see it that way. A lot of people (despite that Young's supporters see it as being 100% of Houston, 100% of Texas, and the queen of England being in favor of Vince Young coming here) still see Carr as the franchise QB for this team, a guy who has not been able to demonstrate his potential and as a guy who will be successful under the new coach.

The point is, even if Carr is good, WE DON'T NEED HIM RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE HE'S WORTH SOMETHING IN TRADE. Sorry for the caps, but everyone seems to miss this point. If Carr is as good as folks around here say then he ought to bring a fair amt in trade. You've got Banks, a solid vet and the untried Ragone sitting on the bench. You're not going to contend for 2 years anyway, maybe 3 AND YOU NEED EXTRA DRAFT PICKS AND/OR TOP QUALITY PLAYERS.

The simplest solution is trade Carr for picks and speed up the rebuilding. I'd use DD this way if he was worth anything, but I don't imagine he is. What really worries me is that maybe Carr isn't worth much in trade either.

If we "don't need" Carr, then who do we bring on? Oh, I don't know ... who is it that Nighthawk likes again?

Banks is a vet, but he hasn't proven anything, certainly not when he has seen the field on this team (catch the 49ers game?). Ragone was the NFL Europe MVP, kind of like saying a guy is important cause he is king of Lichtenstein.

Well presented, but I don't think money is the problem. I don't think cap hit makes ANY DIFFERENCE in this assessment. Sure, it'll be bad, but the cap is going only one way in the furture, and it's going to $95M this year, so we're not in big trouble if we have to take a cap hit.

What I was REALLY after out of Carr was the draft picks--the draft picks are much more useful than the money to be used on FA. We can get top talent in the draft and we will not pay out the nose like we will for FA.

THe real question is what is Carr worth in the trade? Could he be worth a low first round and a low second? The Miami rumor was Ricky and a third rounder. That was interesting because Ricky is still a strong young back (albeit a little wacky) and a good complement to DD, but the 3rd rounder was pretty low. Could Carr be worth 2 seconds? A single mid-first?

I'm thinking Carr is not the long term answer here, whether he's good or not so good, so let's see what we can get for him in trade that might really benefit the team right now.

And as I follow, you continue to paint your argument into a corner. Money used on the FA is also money that could be used on signing these draft picks you speak of, none of which will be available to us if we cut Carr. Money is always a concern, it is a viable part of any trade/signing assessment - especially 25 million dollars of it - as this is a business and the team is not allowed to print their own money or falsify their financial statements. Re-signing and then trading Carr is going to cost too damned much, no matter how you might like to slice it.

FINAL BELL: Kubiak is keeping Carr. Vince will be a Titan. Trump card down, BAM. Sorry.

TJFord
01-25-2006, 12:44 PM
Is there any way that we could get involved in a three team deal? How does shipping Carr to Minnesota for Daunte and a pick and then sending Daunte to Oakland for another pick sound? Word is that Daunte might be traded before his next contract goes into effect so Minn is working on the same timeline we are here. Minn wants to get rid of Daunte, Oakland might want him but has nothing to offer, the Texans save money to spend on FA o-line (Bentley and Nader?) and extra picks. I would say then dratf VY and go, but this might be a good deal no matter who we draft. Regardless, would y'all rather have Carr or possibly two top tier Olineman next year?

thunderkyss
01-25-2006, 12:51 PM
Let's try something different here. First, we swap players. Second, the players being swapped are Carr and Big Ben. This swap happens in Big Ben's Rookie season, so both QB's have had two seasons with their new teams. Nothing else about these teams is changed but the starting QB's. Is Pittsburgh out of the Playoffs with Carr at the helm and is Houston on their way to the Playoffs because of Big Ben, this year??

Heck, try the same question with Atlanta and Michael Vick?? This way we swap for a QB who can run for his life!!!

Let's just say for arguments sake that Matt L. or Vince Y. had led the Texans this past season, (To be fair to Carr in this analysis, he started from day one.) are we better team with either one of these Rookie QB's???... or does the 68 sacks, no running threat and no receiving threats because of an injured non-productive AJ affect their season as well???... and to make it fair to ML or VY we can say they had the benefit of being here all 4 years as well.

Try and answer very honestly.


I seriously doubt you'll be close to the 68 sacks. Big Ben may have helped us to some wins, speculating, that his ability to make plays down the field with his arm outside of the pocket..... That is what I think David is missing. Vick, you'd think so as well, but you pretty much would have to negate everything Carr did right from the pocket, since Vick can't get it done from their. Ben on the other hand will hurt you whether he is in the pocket or flushed out.

Matt Lienart would have suffered a few concussions right now, and the prospect of Vince is very similar(better, I dare say) than Ben Roth!@#$%(sp)


Understand that I'm not even thinking about Vince challenging Carr for amount of rushing yards by a QB.... I'm more interested in the decisions he has made outside the pocket, throwing the ball. When things turn sour, what do you do?? Like I've said before. I've been watching him since the 2004 RoseBowl, and the kid is amazing. Pumpfakes, while he's running, looking away to fool the coverage, freezing defenders...... all on the run...

jerek
01-25-2006, 12:52 PM
Is there any way that we could get involved in a three team deal? How does shipping Carr to Minnesota for Daunte and a pick and then sending Daunte to Oakland for another pick sound? Word is that Daunte might be traded before his next contract goes into effect so Minn is working on the same timeline we are here. Minn wants to get rid of Daunte, Oakland might want him but has nothing to offer, the Texans save money to spend on FA o-line (Bentley and Nader?) and extra picks. I would say then dratf VY and go, but this might be a good deal no matter who we draft. Regardless, would y'all rather have Carr or possibly two top tier Olineman next year?

If we could deal Carr and acquire two "top-tier" O-lineman in the process, pick up Vince in the draft, then hell, I would listen. I would consider it, for sure. Problem is I do not see us working that kind of deal, but if anyone else can present a reasonable scenario, by all means I would like to read it.

AustinJB
01-25-2006, 01:52 PM
Let's try something different here. First, we swap players. Second, the players being swapped are Carr and Big Ben. This swap happens in Big Ben's Rookie season, so both QB's have had two seasons with their new teams. Nothing else about these teams is changed but the starting QB's. Is Pittsburgh out of the Playoffs with Carr at the helm and is Houston on their way to the Playoffs because of Big Ben, this year??

Heck, try the same question with Atlanta and Michael Vick?? This way we swap for a QB who can run for his life!!!

Let's just say for arguments sake that Matt L. or Vince Y. had led the Texans this past season, (To be fair to Carr in this analysis, he started from day one.) are we better team with either one of these Rookie QB's???... or does the 68 sacks, no running threat and no receiving threats because of an injured non-productive AJ affect their season as well???... and to make it fair to ML or VY we can say they had the benefit of being here all 4 years as well.

Try and answer very honestly.

If Carr was w/ Pitt, they would NOT have made the playoffs, and if they did, they certainly would not have advanced to SB.

On the flip side, if we had Big Ben, he would not have led us to the playoffs either b/c we don't have enough talent around him. We would have had a better record than 2-14 though IMO.

Nighthawk
01-25-2006, 02:10 PM
What annoys me about this post is that it isn't about "team" so much as it is a thinly veiled attempt to form a leading question for drafting Vince Young.

If we "don't need" Carr, then who do we bring on? Oh, I don't know ... who is it that Nighthawk likes again?

Banks is a vet, but he hasn't proven anything, certainly not when he has seen the field on this team (catch the 49ers game?). Ragone was the NFL Europe MVP, kind of like saying a guy is important cause he is king of Lichtenstein.

And as I follow, you continue to paint your argument into a corner. Money used on the FA is also money that could be used on signing these draft picks you speak of, none of which will be available to us if we cut Carr. Money is always a concern, it is a viable part of any trade/signing assessment - especially 25 million dollars of it - as this is a business and the team is not allowed to print their own money or falsify their financial statements. Re-signing and then trading Carr is going to cost too damned much, no matter how you might like to slice it.

FINAL BELL: Kubiak is keeping Carr. Vince will be a Titan. Trump card down, BAM. Sorry.


You may be right, but your arguments seem born of desperation. Banks has had a more successful career in the NFL than Carr by any standards. Ragone has not been ALLOWED to play by managment eager to PROTECT AND RE-ASSURE CARR. Accounting can do wonders for your money problems. And this has ZERO to do with Vince Young. I'd prefer to lose Carr for draft picks even if we go for the Bush or trade down solutions.

Let me put this in a way even you can understand: Carr is worth more to us in trade than he is on the roster.

jerek
01-25-2006, 02:15 PM
If Carr was w/ Pitt, they would NOT have made the playoffs, and if they did, they certainly would not have advanced to SB.

On the flip side, if we had Big Ben, he would not have led us to the playoffs either b/c we don't have enough talent around him. We would have had a better record than 2-14 though IMO.

I will agree with this on principle, because I think that Ben is a better QB than Carr is right now. That said, I am not sure how much better our record would have been. 1 W, 2 maybe? We lost a lot of close games this year thanks to Fangio's D, and we got blown out of a lot of others, similarly because of bad D.

When our offense was okay, our defense was worse. Even those few games where our offense was good, our defense was still worse.

And when our D wasn't embarassing us, it was: bad offensive playcalling (remember: comes from the coordinators, not the QB, exception being Rams game first half where DC-led offense put up 24 points) and injuries (Davis and AJ and Mathis out for long stretches) at scoring positions did not help the cause.

Did Carr screw up at times, make bad reads, throw some INTs, take sacks that were solely his fault? Absolutely. But not much more so than most any other QB did this year. It is the broad and far-reaching difference at so many other levels of our game that made the difference.

A QB is a vital part of your offense, but even here, I question the difference to our bottom line. I agree that Ben is a better QB, but point being, no one QB would have made much of a wave in this year's Texans team.

You may be right, but your arguments seem born of desperation. Banks has had a more successful career in the NFL than Carr by any standards. Ragone has not been ALLOWED to play by managment eager to PROTECT AND RE-ASSURE CARR. Accounting can do wonders for your money problems. And this has ZERO to do with Vince Young. I'd prefer to lose Carr for draft picks even if we go for the Bush or trade down solutions.

Let me put this in a way even you can understand: Carr is worth more to us in trade than he is on the roster.

And I respectfully - though strongly - disagree.

Meloy
01-25-2006, 03:56 PM
This is a funny one IMO. Folks were critical of Carr not getting in his OL's face for quite a while. Then he does it a couple of times and he is behaving childishly according to many of the same folks. His little outburst after the horrible 3rd qtr of the Chicago game seemed to have quite an impact on the OL in 2004. Classic case of not going to get it right either way.

First time I've seen this voiced anywhere. Good response. Same old damned if you do & damned if you don't. If McNair trusts Kubiak to turn this ship around, I think I'll trust him to make the correct call @ QB also.

Wharton
01-25-2006, 06:06 PM
Yaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnn, same tired old points on the same tired old argument.

:blah:

This is getting boring.

:deadhorse

jmerog
01-25-2006, 08:34 PM
Why would you trade Carr??? I can absolutely live with this guys stats!!!! Simple math says that behind a horrible Offensive and I mean OFFENSIVE Line he has still managed to throw for 6,019 yds. ( 04-05 ); completed 60.9% ( Avg. ) of his passes; 30 TD's; 25 int's; 80.4 ( Avg. ) QB Rating and did this while absorbing 117 SACKS ( 04-05 ). Thank god they don't keep track of hurries and dropped passes!!!!! We didn't have a 1,000 yard rusher this year and AJ, our only real WR was out early and only accounted for 688 yds. receiving and 2 TD's this year.

I can only admire Carr for not pulling a Peyton Manning after each game and throwing his lousy a-- OL under the bus. Manning endured 1 game where his OL failed him and he came apart at the seams!!!! Where do you think Manning's mind would be if he had to endure that for 64 games plus 16 pre-season games????? I wonder how fast DADDY could get him out of Indy???? This is why Carr has the respect of his teammates and the only people throwing him under the bus are a percentage of the fans, who just don't get it!!!

I'm sorry, my vote stays with Carr and I only hope, that between D. Reeves, Kubiak and CC they can finally find a way to put some HEALTHY weapons and protection around Carr so we can really get a read on him. For now, there isn't another QB, who could have, under these circumstances, come in here and won big ( By big, I mean 5-8 wins ) with this supporting cast.
DITTO.

CajunTexan
01-25-2006, 09:56 PM
Here is how I see the entire Carr/Young/Bush debate. Are you willing to trade David Carr AND Reggie Bush for Vince Young? You are in effect trading 2 number 1 overall picks for the number 3 overall pick.

Yes, the difference between a 1 and 3 overall pick is probably slight, but that is how it plays.

Heard on radio over here in LA, Nawlins is looking at Cutler over Lienart and Young! So maybe we should ad Cutler to the equation.

Wharton
01-26-2006, 10:06 AM
Heard on radio over here in LA, Nawlins is looking at Cutler over Lienart and Young! So maybe we should ad Cutler to the equation.
Well, thats about par for the Saints. That organization really screwed up.

LCOOL
01-26-2006, 10:13 AM
Well, thats about par for the Saints. That organization really screwed up.
That is why the Saints are a messed up team, as long as Gibson is the owner the saints will never be a good time1

Glacier
01-26-2006, 10:14 AM
I don't buy it. It is probably a smoke screen to signal other teams that they are willing to trade out of the 2nd spot, if someone makes them the right offer.