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BroncoFan
01-23-2006, 08:51 PM
Why are there so many posts on this board wanting to draft young and give up on carr. Carr is a good qb and just needs time. Elway was not fantastic in his first couple of seasons, people in mile high were calling for Deberg if you remember him. No Im not comparing Carr to Elway, all Im saying is to give Carr sometime under a new mentor (Kubiak) and see what happens. How many teams out there would want carr if given the opportunity Balt, Miami, Jets, Saints, Raiders, Lions etc... Draft Bush or trade the pick for numerous of picks to shore up your O-line and defense. Just a comment good luck texans.

YodAa
01-23-2006, 09:01 PM
also Elway didn't win an SB witout Kubiak.....

BroncoFan
01-23-2006, 09:05 PM
You are correct!!

YodAa
01-23-2006, 09:06 PM
o snap put up 2 for the Y-man (2 since he won 2)

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 09:08 PM
But everybody is already saying we've got a better than average runblocking offensive line. I'd like to see how they would look with Kubiak and crew.

And while it would be interesting to see how Carr will turn out with Kubiak, I'm much more interested in how Vince would fare under Kubiak.

Tulip
01-23-2006, 09:10 PM
Okay - trying to make the logical leap here. It's almost like an SAT question.

If:

Hall of Fame Quarterback + Kubiak = Super Bowl Winning Hall of Fame Quarterback

Then:

Below Average Quarterback + Kubiak = ?

Caesar
01-23-2006, 09:11 PM
The main difference, besides Young's freakish athletic ability, is that VY is a great leader who inspires his teammates. Carr is below average, at best, in that regard. Vince is also much more confident, though that isn't necessarily Carr's fault.

BroncoFan
01-23-2006, 09:12 PM
How confident would you be if your team was the league leader in sacks allowed.

Tulip
01-23-2006, 09:15 PM
How confident would you be if your team was the league leader in sacks allowed.

How hard would you work if you were paid #1 draft pick money? Would you stay after practice occasionally to get some one-on-one practice time with your receivers and team bonding time with your o-linemen?

YodAa
01-23-2006, 09:21 PM
omg so the guy pumps up his team?!?! holy crap we gotta get Young now! Disregard the fact that Carr has tried for a long time (remember the hair thing with 2 games in a row) to lead his emotionless team, lets just totally ditch him! Then when this guy is leading a team into the SB and we're barely in year 2 of developing VY, we can throw a big parade talking about how we drafted him and a big debate over whos fault it was for him leaving and over who we should take with the 1st overall again

BroncoFan
01-23-2006, 09:24 PM
I still say just give the man a chance. Be careful what you wish for you may get young and he could turn out to be the next "slash"=Kordell stewart. Carr just needs some time and weapons. The only big name WR you have is Johnson. The RB is Davis who was hurt most of the season. And a pathetic O-line which defensive teams were just teeing off on Carr. Bush/O-line help would start to give Carr what he needs to help the texans become champions.

YodAa
01-23-2006, 09:25 PM
if Vince Young was a Sooner everyone would be kissing Reggies feet

Tulip
01-23-2006, 09:28 PM
I still say just give the man a chance.

That's very easy to say when you haven't had to watch him underachieve for 4 straight years. Especially when you haven't paid a lot of money to watch him underachieve in person.

If he didn't have this option coming up, I might be a little more forgiving. But the Texans have an out, and it frustrates me that they aren't going to use it. Instead, they are investing even more money in someone who *may* still have an upside. What if this is as good as it gets?

YodAa
01-23-2006, 09:29 PM
well lucky for us than that Kubiak has a great running system and that we'll have DD and Bush in it

Tulip
01-23-2006, 09:32 PM
if Vince Young was a Sooner everyone would be kissing Reggies feet

I've never kissed Reggie's feet. Not even after Fresno State. I'm resigned to him as a draft pick and have been ever since the Texans started competing for the "Reggie Bowl".

YodAa
01-23-2006, 09:35 PM
ok im sorry I meant to put everyone EXCEPT FOR TULIP would be kissing Reggies feet

BroncoFan
01-23-2006, 09:37 PM
Well eihter way Bush or Young the Texans will get a star. you never know maybe Kubs will trade down and stockpile picks. I do think he will take Bush and work on improving the O-line.

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 09:51 PM
if Vince Young was a Sooner everyone would be kissing Reggies feet

I've been against drafting Reggie Bush well before the Rose Bowl.

Disregard the fact that Carr has tried for a long time (remember the hair thing with 2 games in a row) to lead his emotionless team, lets just totally ditch him! Then when this guy is leading a team into the SB and we're barely in year 2 of developing VY, we can throw a big parade talking about how we drafted him and a big debate over whos fault it was for him leaving and over who we should take with the 1st overall again

Leaders Don't try..

If David Carr take Oakland or Miami to the superbowl, I'll Kiss Reggies feet.

I still say just give the man a chance. Be careful what you wish for you may get young and he could turn out to be the next "slash"=Kordell stewart. Carr just needs some time and weapons. The only big name WR you have is Johnson. The RB is Davis who was hurt most of the season. And a pathetic O-line which defensive teams were just teeing off on Carr. Bush/O-line help would start to give Carr what he needs to help the texans become champions.

You take him, give him all the time you want. Give us Champ Bailey in return.


If he didn't have this option coming up, I might be a little more forgiving. But the Texans have an out, and it frustrates me that they aren't going to use it. Instead, they are investing even more money in someone who *may* still have an upside. What if this is as good as it gets?

Can you say Couch..... as in Tim Couch.

Carr Bombed
01-23-2006, 10:18 PM
The leadership knock on Carr is one of the most overated things on this board.

Lets look at other QBs that had "No Leadership" :rolleyes: that were put in a similar situtation as Carr.

S. Young and J. Plunkett, both were drafted into absolutely horrid situations, but ended up LEADING their teams to superbowls when put in a winning situation.

I don't care who the QB was, he would of failed on this team.

Carr has had no protection and no TE (which is a young qbs best friend) and a craptastic defense that blew leads late with inept coaches that would sit on a 3 point lead. He wasn't exactly put into the situation to lead. The texans have set him up for failure since day one.

edo783
01-23-2006, 10:26 PM
I am real sure that Carr was chosen at the #1 pick because he showed no leadership in college. Everyone knows you never checkout a pick, ya just listen to the fan base and take what they want. They know what's real.

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 10:44 PM
I am real sure that Carr was chosen at the #1 pick because he showed no leadership in college. Everyone knows you never checkout a pick, ya just listen to the fan base and take what they want. They know what's real.


Okay, just like you and all you Vince haters are saying that Vince's game won't transfer well into the NFL, it's the same for leadership. Sometimes it transfers well, sometimes it don't. In Carr's case...

I don't want to rag on Carr(although I will do it)

If you're going to give Carr another chance, give DD a chance. He's our franchise back.

Let's trade down, and try not to screw it up.

AustinJB
01-24-2006, 12:48 AM
Be careful what you wish for you may get young and he could turn out to be the next "slash"=Kordell stewart.

I know you weren't the first one to say this BroncoFan, but I'm just sick of people saying this w/out any basis for comparison. Don't just pick a bust that comes to mind; at least try to use someone w/ comparable stats.

Oh yeah, that's right...it's because when you stack up all the "running" QBs that everyone likes to try to compare VY to, VY's stats are better overall than all of them (I realize that stats don't tell the whole story, but it's all you have to go off of at this point in their career).

Vince Young (last college season), 6? 5? 230 lbs
3036 passing yards
65.2 comp%
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Kordell Stewart (last college season) 6?1? 218lbs.
2071 passing yards
62.0 comp%
247 attempts 147 completions, 8.7 avg. yds/attempt
10 TDs, 3 INT
122 rushes for 818 yards, 5.2 avg. yds/rush, 7 TDs

Glacier
01-24-2006, 12:00 PM
But everybody is already saying we've got a better than average runblocking offensive line. I'd like to see how they would look with Kubiak and crew.

And while it would be interesting to see how Carr will turn out with Kubiak, I'm much more interested in how Vince would fare under Kubiak.

Well, this is a pickle. See, in my personal opinion, there are only two offensive minds who would use Vince Young to his full potential - Shannahan and Kubiak.

I think any other coaching staff might not embrace nor nurture his mobility and rather would try to coach him into being something he is not - a one dimensional pocket QB.

That is one of the saddest aspects of realizing that Vince Young won't be coming to Houston - his best chance for success as a pro is likely passing him by.

BigBull17
01-24-2006, 12:05 PM
So to get this strait, VY cant be compaired to a player that has a similar style to that turned out to be a bust, while RB gets many compairisions to Ki-Janna Carter and the like. Intresting.

Huge
01-24-2006, 12:25 PM
1999 - 261 of 452 (57.7%), 3,032 yards, 14 TDs, 14 INTs
2000 - 216 of 336 (64.3%), 2,688 yards, 19 TDs, 4 INTs
2001 - 275 of 451 (61%), 2,827 yards, 23 TDs, 19 INTs
2002 - 291 of 436 (66.7%), 3,214 yards, 15 TDs, 15 INTs

And yet Denver wasted no time in getting rid of Brian Griese.

Jack Bauer
01-24-2006, 12:28 PM
So to get this strait, VY cant be compaired to a player that has a similar style to that turned out to be a bust, while RB gets many compairisions to Ki-Janna Carter and the like. Intresting.

Kudos to this post. It is amazing how many VY supporters scream when Kordell is used as an example, yet they are quick to jump on the Carter versus Bush comparison.

Kaiser Toro
01-24-2006, 12:34 PM
Why are there so many posts on this board wanting to draft young and give up on carr. Carr is a good qb and just needs time. Elway was not fantastic in his first couple of seasons, people in mile high were calling for Deberg if you remember him. No Im not comparing Carr to Elway, all Im saying is to give Carr sometime under a new mentor (Kubiak) and see what happens. How many teams out there would want carr if given the opportunity Balt, Miami, Jets, Saints, Raiders, Lions etc... Draft Bush or trade the pick for numerous of picks to shore up your O-line and defense. Just a comment good luck texans.

To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen in his debate with Dan Quayle, "Sir, I knew John Elway as a Cardinal, I knew John Elway as a Bronco, John Elway was one of the greatest ever. Mr. Carr, you are no John Elway.

Respect your franchise and takes to date, but Elway even in the lean years could make things happen with his arm, legs, determination and his medulla oblongata. You paid for his development when there was no cap, we are paying for Carr's arrested developement with important cap space.

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 12:35 PM
Cordell's problem, was that he was stupid...

Problem with McNabb, is that Reid doesn't want to hurt his feelings...

Problem with Brooks, is that he refuses to use his talent....

Problem with Vick, is that he is more RB than QB....

Problem with Akili.... he was asked to do too much, way to soon..

Problem with Daunte... he's a big ole teddy bear... he wants eveybody to like him...

Problem with Bret Favre.... He thinks he is better than he is....

They've all got problems... They're all different people. Some flopped, some are models of what other coaches are looking for.

Whoever drafts Vince have got keep him behind the line of scrimmage... getting that first down with his legs every now and then is Okay, but he'll open the defense more, with his arm, combined with his ability to keep a play alive. They've got to be serious about their offensive line.. I think most coaches with Mobile QBs think they can get away with average pass protection... Carr was a victim of that. Actually, Capers took it to the extreme. But they've got to build that line as if they've got a statue standing back there. And most importantly, they can't be afraid to get in his face. Some guys( I think Carr & McNabb are prime examples) like to try to please other people.. so much that if you're happy with them... they feel like they've got nothing to do. Let them know they screwed up every now and again, and they go above and beyond.

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 12:36 PM
1999 - 261 of 452 (57.7%), 3,032 yards, 14 TDs, 14 INTs
2000 - 216 of 336 (64.3%), 2,688 yards, 19 TDs, 4 INTs
2001 - 275 of 451 (61%), 2,827 yards, 23 TDs, 19 INTs
2002 - 291 of 436 (66.7%), 3,214 yards, 15 TDs, 15 INTs

And yet Denver wasted no time in getting rid of Brian Griese.


Isn't Miami trying to get rid of him too.

Huge
01-24-2006, 12:39 PM
Tampa Bay, maybe?

If they're looking to get rid of him, it'll be because of his salary. 'Course, he wouldn't be a big salary cap hit had they not given him such a large contract extension after his first season with the team.

Glacier
01-24-2006, 12:40 PM
.....but Elway even in the lean years could make things happen with his arm, legs, determination and his medulla oblongata. You paid for his development when there was no cap, we are paying for Carr's arrested developement with important cap space.


This is simply brilliant. So true. Playmakers...make plays, no excuses.

Jack Bauer
01-24-2006, 12:48 PM
but Elway even in the lean years could make things happen with his arm, legs, determination and his medulla oblongata.

You mean like 1992 when his team went 8-8, his QB rating was 65, he had more INTs than TDs (17v10), he had a 55% completion percentage, he had 2242 yards in 12 games? Oh yeah, BTW, his career completion percentage was 57%.

;)

Glacier
01-24-2006, 12:51 PM
You mean like 1992 when his team went 8-8, his QB rating was 65, he had more INTs than TDs (17v10), he had a 55% completion percentage, he had 2242 yards in 12 games? Oh yeah, BTW, his career completion percentage was 57%.

;)


hmmmm was that Elway's worst season? I'll take 8-8 vs 2-14 in worst case scenarios.

Jack Bauer
01-24-2006, 01:09 PM
hmmmm was that Elway's worst season? I'll take 8-8 vs 2-14 in worst case scenarios.

Denver always had good coaching and above average talent, especially while Elway was there. And concerning numbers, Elway was never subjected to the offense Carr has been subjected to.

eclem5
01-24-2006, 01:17 PM
You know Robert Reid was a good shooting Guard but Clyde Drexler was much better in My and History's opinion. The Rockets did'nt draft Drexler because of we had Reid. Young is just a better player than Carr, Different. Did you see the Game a couple of weeks ago which he pretty much beat USC by himself? Have any other College player Thrown for 3,000 yards and ran for 1,000 yards?
PEOPLE COME ON!!!! the guy has done the same thing on every level he played. I can't see Carr going 12-4 ever

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 01:18 PM
Denver always had good coaching and above average talent, especially while Elway was there. And concerning numbers, Elway was never subjected to the offense Carr has been subjected to.


they always had above average talent because Elway was there.. they weren't shipping players to the probowl every year or anything like that.

eclem5
01-24-2006, 01:19 PM
Did you see the USC vs Texas game?
There's a Feller who played with the Bulls I think his name was JORDAN ever hear of him?
Remebeer a Guy name Lawrence Taylor?

whiskeyrbl
01-24-2006, 01:40 PM
YodAa ,My God your still available and the Texans haven't called you for the OC job.I can't believe that!!!!!You obviouslt haven't watched alot of football lately.Carr is a leader,didn't see anyoneelse getting hit play after play after play,get up go back to the huddle,and try again.Not to mention the offensive playbook of run,run,sack,punt.Of anyone on that team he has earned his right to be given another shot to suceed in a new scheme.I just do not see giving up on him yet especially for someone who has not taken a snap in pro football,and for that matter hasn't run a pro style offense.

Jack Bauer
01-24-2006, 01:41 PM
they always had above average talent because Elway was there.. they weren't shipping players to the probowl every year or anything like that.

Yeah, nothing like Shannon Sharpe. He never went to the Pro Bowl.

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 01:45 PM
YodAa ,My God your still available and the Texans haven't called you for the OC job.I can't believe that!!!!!You obviouslt haven't watched alot of football lately.Carr is a leader,didn't see anyoneelse getting hit play after play after play,get up go back to the huddle,and try again.Not to mention the offensive playbook of run,run,sack,punt.Of anyone on that team he has earned his right to be given another shot to suceed in a new scheme.I just do not see giving up on him yet especially for someone who has not taken a snap in pro football,and for that matter hasn't run a pro style offense.


there's a difference between running a prostyle offense, and running a prostyle offense correctly.

Sides, if you don't want to take Young, I'm cool with that. Really I am, but if you're going to use the pick....

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 01:47 PM
Yeah, nothing like Shannon Sharpe. He never went to the Pro Bowl.


Ok, you got me... Shannon Sharpe.... how long was he playing in Denver?? How long was Elway playing in Denver?? How long were they playing in Denver together??

Of course they've had talent. But many years, Elway was the only talent.

whiskeyrbl
01-24-2006, 01:49 PM
Just tired of DC haters Praying to the VY guy.Am a lifelong Horns fan,just do not believe VY is the answer.

Jack Bauer
01-24-2006, 01:51 PM
The Broncos always had talented receivers, but did not get the Pro Bowl nods because of the offenses in Houston and Buffalo. Not to mention, both those teams' WRs were VERY talented as well.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Glacier
01-24-2006, 04:03 PM
The Broncos always had talented receivers, but did not get the Pro Bowl nods because of the offenses in Houston and Buffalo. Not to mention, both those teams' WRs were VERY talented as well.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


Honestly, I don't give a flying **** who plays QB for the Texans as long as it isn't David Carr or Tony Banks. Neither has proven that they are the man.

It doesn't have to be DC vs VY....

It could be DV vs Wheinhart. He did win a heisman as well, you know? He did blow up in the 2nd half of the national championship. He was clutch in the 2nd half over and over again when his team was flat and losing.

I'd be perfectly happy with seeing Leinart drafted #1 over all. Bush will not make as big an impact on a running back wealthy team as a Leinhart, Young or a Jay Cutler makes on a team starving for some good play from the QB position.

Jack Bauer
01-24-2006, 04:19 PM
Oh and one other small tidbit, Kubiak is a damn Slocumb protege...omg that is not a good omen.

A Slocum protege? First of all, we could only hope for the success that Slocum had at A&M. Secondly, Slocum is a defensive-minded coach and Kubiak is an offensive-minded coach...

LoneStarState
01-24-2006, 06:15 PM
As for Kubiak, if he is putting his money on Carr panning out (which it sounds like he is), he would be better off renting a house here in Houston, cause he wont be around too long
Hopefully, those are words you'll have to eat...

Caesar
01-24-2006, 06:40 PM
Carr has had no protection and no TE (which is a young qbs best friend) and a craptastic defense that blew leads late with inept coaches that would sit on a 3 point lead.
So he has no o-line, no tight end, and no defense to help him. So what is the Texans' answer? Draft another runningback! Brilliant!

stevo3883
01-24-2006, 06:43 PM
So he has no o-line, no tight end, and no defense to help him. So what is the Texans' answer? Draft another runningback! Brilliant!


there is more than 1 pick in the draft...

Glacier
01-25-2006, 10:32 AM
I am real sure that Carr was chosen at the #1 pick because he showed no leadership in college. Everyone knows you never checkout a pick, ya just listen to the fan base and take what they want. They know what's real.


The year Carr was drafted, there weren't wasn't a wealth of NFL QBing prospects in the draft....

lets see.....we had Joey Harrington, who can't use the excuse of "bad coaching" like Carr gets the benifit of the doubt for....

And David Carr...Not much to chose from there. Maybe Coach Capers would have been smarter to draft what he knew and gone with Julius Peppers.

jerek
01-25-2006, 12:18 PM
This guy gets it. Carr is not committed to being the best QB he can be. It has been obvious since the beginning. Carr is a guy who makes a living playing pro football. Period. He has never shown the drive that it takes to be the best. You never hear of him getting together with his receivers to watch tape after hours or throwing the rock around pre-game or post-practice. He does just enough to get buy and collect his check. His life is so damn kush that it doesnt matter to him. I think he just isnt one of the guys either because of his GQ looks and clean living golden boy persona. No edge or competitive spirit.

That being said, the organization drafted him and doesnt want to admit that they got a lemon of a Carr. Hopefully Kubiak can do something with him and maybe he will become less of a choirboy wuss and be a winner. Bush and Davis in the backfield should take some pressure off him but he sacks himself half the time so it may not be enough.

I just want a good team and as a Longhorn its gonna just make me bleed inside seeing Young punk Carr twice a year. I am not on the draft Young bandwagon because I think Bush helps next year, but I hope and pray each day that Young has a great combine and goes to New Orleans...

Oh and one other small tidbit, Kubiak is a damn Slocumb protege...omg that is not a good omen.

(A) Quit with the Carr/lemon wordplay. It is no longer funny after you hear it about twenty thousand times.

(B) I am glad you are so astute and privy regarding the Texans' organization that you are so fully aware of David Carr's pre and post-practice habits, as well as the nature of his relationships with his teammates. Else we, the mortal fans, would have no idea what was really going on behind the scenes and away from the camera, and would have to rely on such debatedly omniscient sources as our adept Chronicle writers for all of our information.

No, wait. I get it. You are relying on the Chronicle writers. Otherwise, instead of saying "you never hear about" you would be saying "I have never seen," operating of course on the assumption that you would be in a position to see or know of this kind of off-record work in the first place. An assumption which, I could be pretty sure, is one you have pulled out of your [expletive deleted]. Since you are not in said position, you further rely on - of all sources - this city's sportswriters to give you the real, much less full, story.

Anyone see the flaw in this thinking?

"GQ looks" and "clean life" are not synonomous with lack of heart or competitive edge. As much as I am dying to know where you draw that comparison from, I am going to avoid asking, as I am afraid it will further diminish your lack of credibility.

Football players don't have to be thug-life to be good or have fire. Neither are they required to broadcast their abilities to anyone and everyone who will listen.

AustinJB
01-25-2006, 01:05 PM
"GQ looks" and "clean life" are not synonomous with lack of heart or competitive edge. As much as I am dying to know where you draw that comparison from, I am going to avoid asking, as I am afraid it will further diminish your lack of credibility.

Football players don't have to be thug-life to be good or have fire. Neither are they required to broadcast their abilities to anyone and everyone who will listen.

No, but if they are good and have fire, shouldn't you see that on the field? Then they don't have to broadcast their abilities to anyone b/c it will be evident. (YES, it would be evident even if everyone around them sucked.)

I think the point that is being made is that no one sees the results and/or improvement from Carr. It doesn't seem that he is working as much as he should to try to improve; and even if most of this information is from writers, media, etc. from Houston, why would they just single out Carr from the entire team if there wasn't some truth to it? I know...you can't believe everything the media says or writes, but they got the information from somewhere. Also, it hasn't been just ONE member of the media that has made this known; it's been several.

"A leader must identify himself with the group, must back up the group, even at the risk of displeasing superiors. He must believe that the group wants from him a sense of approval. If this feeling prevails, production, discipline, morale will be high, and in return, you can demand the cooperation to promote the goals of the company." -Vince Lombardi

"Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile." -Vince Lombardi

I haven't seen this from Carr....have you?

Spoda
01-25-2006, 01:11 PM
there is a guy at la porte jr high...he is in 7th grade...i think he will be better than vince..he will be from houston...i say we draft him no matter what in 7 years

AustinJB
01-25-2006, 01:17 PM
there is a guy at la porte jr high...he is in 7th grade...i think he will be better than vince..he will be from houston...i say we draft him no matter what in 7 years

He's probably already better than Carr so....why not? LOL:rolleyes:

jerek
01-25-2006, 01:20 PM
No, but if they are good and have fire, shouldn't you see that on the field? Then they don't have to broadcast their abilities to anyone b/c it will be evident. (YES, it would be evident even if everyone around them sucked.)

I think the point that is being made is that no one sees the results and/or improvement from Carr. It doesn't seem that he is working as much as he should to try to improve; and even if most of this information is from writers, media, etc. from Houston, why would they just single out Carr from the entire team if there wasn't some truth to it? I know...you can't believe everything the media says or writes, but they got the information from somewhere. Also, it hasn't been just ONE member of the media that has made this known; it's been several.

"A leader must identify himself with the group, must back up the group, even at the risk of displeasing superiors. He must believe that the group wants from him a sense of approval. If this feeling prevails, production, discipline, morale will be high, and in return, you can demand the cooperation to promote the goals of the company." -Vince Lombardi

"Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile." -Vince Lombardi

I haven't seen this from Carr....have you?

(A) "Everybody" says it, then it must be true?

(B) The media has been pretty quiet about Carr and his "fault" in this 2-14 season. While it is true that you have not heard "the lone bright spot in this season has been David Carr's performance" ... that is hardly synonomous with failure.

Many noteworthy minds of the NFL community (coaches, analysts, etc.) have taken defense of Carr, have pointed out time and again that his relative lack of success is Carr making the best of a doomed situation, that any other QB could be expected to perform similarly throughout the season.

It is only on this message board that you consistently (hell, if at all, really) see Carr as the "lemon."

It would be convenient, but it not accurate to blame him. Too much of the time, it boils down to "draft Vince" crap: and not even the good arguments for drafting Vince, but so much blind praise of the untouchable god of victory.

Our sportswriters' debatable lack of writing skill and focus do not equate to Carr being a failure. You have entirely too much faith in the press if you believe their accounts of our team's activities as being the truthful and complete story.

EDIT: I have seen hard work from Carr, I have personally seen him work with his receivers and do all of these things that "no one" knows about. I am not a guy who is going to tell you that DC is "undoubtedly a future hall of famer, will win us x amount of Super Bowls, etc. etc." I can only tell you that he is a hard worker, a stand up guy, and, in my opinion, a good player who has not been given his chance. Say what you want, but football is a team sport.

If we were 13-3 right now and DC had put up precisely the same stat line, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. The bottom line is that the Texans lost a lot of games this year and people are pointing the broom in the wrong direction.

Dubble Trubble
01-25-2006, 06:03 PM
I think we gotta take Vince. Im no Longhorn (Cane fan)....but, I am a deep rooted Texans' fan, since day 1.

I think what most are losing touch with...is this franchise is still young. Not a franchise that was just on the cusp of winning the SB, with a free agent move needed here or there. The Texans' are young, with nice sized pockets (with the potential to become even bigger on the back of a hometown almost-hero)....there's no real rush. Heck, in the Grand Scheme of the things that we know about the NFL....we're still working on our foundation, as a franchise.

With that....I don't understand why it would hurt that much to, basically, start over with Vince. He's a QB with big upside, that could grow with a franchise that's, already, in the process of "new beginings" anyway (See: Kubchek).

Now, since the begining...Ive been on the Carr band wagon....because, I always start off having the starting QB's back. But, even more-so, Ima Texan' fan. With that in mind....there's no way anyone could convince me that the upside for this team wouldn't be greater, for a longer period of time-starting with '06, with DC instead of Vince.

True...Vince has issues with the mechanics...but, there's nothing there that couldn't be corrected (just like ALL soon-to-be-Pros in the NFL).

Now, I'll admit....before Vince wanted to come out, I was a Bush supporter. In fact, a few weeks after Vince's decision, I was still behind picking Bush. But, Ive come to the conclusion that picking Vince is just the right choice on alot of levels that can be milked for the good of everyone...be it the Texan's future, marketing, fanbase, etc.

....and, what's better than the position of being able to get him? Him being from here and wanting to be here.


By no means do I think Vince is a lock. In fact, everyone's a fracture or a break away from being a bust. But, I think Vince is one of those Golden opportunites that you'd be a fool to pass up on. Pick Vince...use the rest of the picks ("yes"....we have more picks) wisely....be smart with free agent money, and start making progress towards making it to that above-500% mark that we were looking for.


PS- Why does it feel like everyone is taking the possibility of Vince going to Tenn. too lightly?




:)

Sudds
01-26-2006, 09:10 AM
People please, get over it! VY had a great college career, that's it. He had a great National Championship game vs. USC, that's it. Fresno State's offense dominated SC more than Texas and VY. SC's defense was and is absolutely horrible this year. Please, as educated football fans, realize that everything we've seen from VY just this year, was against very poor defenses. David Carr's senior season at Fresno State was far and away better statistically than VY's. He took a mid-major to #8 in the BCS. Just because you have a great college career, doesn't mean that you will become the greatest QB to ever live.

By pushing VY's stats on us constantly, it makes you look more and more like a homer with a bias. That is not what the Texans need on draft day. Tp say we need to replace Carr with VY is an absolute waste of a draft pick. Carr will be fine with Kubiak, and probably even better than VY would be with Kubiak. Trade down or get Bush.

ArlingtonTexan
01-26-2006, 09:14 AM
I can then assume you won't mind me merging this with another Vince Young thread since this is not covering new ground either.

Wharton
01-26-2006, 09:17 AM
So what if DC's stats are better in college. He has not done anything in the Pros that shows me he can play this game at a winning level. Until he does, I am going to keep gripping, complaining or whatever else I can think of to get the message across.

Since it appears that Kubes, who I have great faith in, want to keep DC, I hope I am wrong. But, until his play improves and we start winning, I am sticking to my current assessment - Carr Stinks!

Deal with it!

:redtowel:

New_Texans
01-26-2006, 09:17 AM
The only reason fresno lost a few games that year was because their defense was horrible.

I agree, dont give Kubiak a rookie QB then get him fired in 2 years. Keep Carr because we have more problems other than the QB postion. Also, get bush cause that gives u 3 offensive threats and we will have 3 more picks after that in the first 3 rounds i believe.



I would like to have David Thomas though...

Then again... we could trade down and get AJ Hawk or DeBrickashaw(????) plus a few more picks...

Wharton
01-26-2006, 09:19 AM
I can then assume you won't mind me merging this with another Vince Young thread since this is not covering new ground either.
Whew, thank goodness. I thought there was 58 replies in the time was typing my previous post.

:)

New_Texans
01-26-2006, 09:23 AM
Can you say Couch..... as in Tim Couch.


Tim Couch didnt even play that much... and he threw INTs all the time, he looked like a rookie all the years he played in the league.

Jack Bauer
01-26-2006, 10:25 AM
I have been looking through the history books and cant seem to find any mention of Slocumb being successful at A&M.

Slocum's career record is 123-47-2 (.721) in 14 seasons at Texas A&M. That is almost 9 wins per season. A winning percentage of 72%! Coaching elite status? No. VERY successful? Yes. The Aggies won the Big 12 South twice (97,98) and won the Big 12 Championship once (98).

Many of the Aggies still in the NFL have Slocum to thank for preparing them for the next level.

If you can't call Slocum a success, then your definition of success is what? Not every coach is going to win a national championship. Tom Osborne took 30 years in Nebraska. Coaches do not get 30 years at one place anymore.

Huge
01-26-2006, 05:31 PM
People please, get over it! VY had a great college career, that's it. He had a great National Championship game vs. USC, that's it. Fresno State's offense dominated SC more than Texas and VY. SC's defense was and is absolutely horrible this year. Please, as educated football fans, realize that everything we've seen from VY just this year, was against very poor defenses. David Carr's senior season at Fresno State was far and away better statistically than VY's. He took a mid-major to #8 in the BCS. Just because you have a great college career, doesn't mean that you will become the greatest QB to ever live.

By pushing VY's stats on us constantly, it makes you look more and more like a homer with a bias. That is not what the Texans need on draft day. Tp say we need to replace Carr with VY is an absolute waste of a draft pick. Carr will be fine with Kubiak, and probably even better than VY would be with Kubiak. Trade down or get Bush.
Hilarious.

You're tired of Young supporters pushing his stats on you because you feel that they came against "poor defenses". But yet you wasted no time in pointing out Carr's "far and away" better statistics in college but don't mention what teams those stats came against (a hint...it was the WAC conference).

Preach on, oh educated one.

Charley28
01-27-2006, 08:46 PM
I thought trading Carr to the Saints for the no. 2 and picking up a quarterback with a winner's history and mentality was a good idea. I am certain that it wouldn't fly for a lot of reasons but it is a good idea as a very knowledgable EYEGUY has explained. They say we have 4 years invested in Carr. We should write off this investment. People had many more years invested in enron and finally lost everything. Carr may have had great potential but has now been trained and indoctrinated as a loser in Houston. He may be useful to another team after serious brainwashing and retraining but he will always be a loser in Houston.

Seņor Stan
01-27-2006, 08:57 PM
I thought trading Carr to the Saints for the no. 2 and picking up a quarterback with a winner's history and mentality was a good idea. I am certain that it wouldn't fly for a lot of reasons but it is a good idea as a very knowledgable EYEGUY has explained. They say we have 4 years invested in Carr. We should write off this investment. People had many more years invested in enron and finally lost everything. Carr may have had great potential but has now been trained and indoctrinated as a loser in Houston. He may be useful to another team after serious brainwashing and retraining but he will always be a loser in Houston.

How in the world can you choose the title "bush vs vince young" and not metion either player in your post?

ArlingtonTexan
01-27-2006, 09:02 PM
How in the world can you choose the title "bush vs vince young" and not metion either player in your post?

I am sure that I can find a thread with a similiar title somewhere:rolleyes:

gwallaia
01-27-2006, 09:07 PM
How in the world can you choose the title "bush vs vince young" and not metion either player in your post?

Now that was funny.

bush vs vince young:hmmm: Now that would be an interesting topic to discuss. I wonder why it has been overlooked on this message board.

swtbound07
01-27-2006, 09:07 PM
I am sure that I can a thread with a similiar title somewhere:rolleyes:


hehehe! a typo! the grammar nazi strikes again....the word you are missing is "find" sir.

ArlingtonTexan
01-27-2006, 09:11 PM
hehehe! a typo! the grammar nazi strikes again....the word you are missing is "find" sir.

I would have eventually "found" it.

swtbound07
01-27-2006, 09:12 PM
im just messin with you man....its friday night, and i dont have anything better to do but drink and make nonsensical posts

ArlingtonTexan
01-27-2006, 09:15 PM
im just messin with you man....its friday night, and i dont have anything better to do but drink and make nonsensical posts

I took it that way, as most of the long-termers around here know I am a horrible typist and usually wind up fixing a large percentage of my threads.

threetoedpete
01-27-2006, 09:40 PM
I know you weren't the first one to say this BroncoFan, but I'm just sick of people saying this w/out any basis for comparison. Don't just pick a bust that comes to mind; at least try to use someone w/ comparable stats.

Oh yeah, that's right...it's because when you stack up all the "running" QBs that everyone likes to try to compare VY to, VY's stats are better overall than all of them (I realize that stats don't tell the whole story, but it's all you have to go off of at this point in their career).

Vince Young (last college season), 6? 5? 230 lbs
3036 passing yards
65.2 comp%
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Kordell Stewart (last college season) 6?1? 218lbs.
2071 passing yards
62.0 comp%
247 attempts 147 completions, 8.7 avg. yds/attempt
10 TDs, 3 INT
122 rushes for 818 yards, 5.2 avg. yds/rush, 7 TDs

Please quit throwing those stats at me. Go rewatch the Oklahoma game and the Tech game. VY absoltely stunk up the house with his passing, er Flinging.
No what you have to go on is his past preformances.
If the franchise takes the guy I'll support it. But this ain't Austin. We don't have an all world OL and a bunch of smurfs running around wide open. This is the NFL wich means not for long if you can't hit a target on time and on target. To pay a guy, any guy fifty million or so to ride the pine is crazy. VY might make the transition. Then again, he might not. That sound you heard thursday was Kubes letting the VY guys gently. Gig'em. Might work out.

Tha_Tinman
02-04-2006, 01:11 AM
People please, get over it! VY had a great college career, that's it. He had a great National Championship game vs. USC, that's it. Fresno State's offense dominated SC more than Texas and VY. SC's defense was and is absolutely horrible this year. Please, as educated football fans, realize that everything we've seen from VY just this year, was against very poor defenses. David Carr's senior season at Fresno State was far and away better statistically than VY's. He took a mid-major to #8 in the BCS. Just because you have a great college career, doesn't mean that you will become the greatest QB to ever live.

By pushing VY's stats on us constantly, it makes you look more and more like a homer with a bias. That is not what the Texans need on draft day. Tp say we need to replace Carr with VY is an absolute waste of a draft pick. Carr will be fine with Kubiak, and probably even better than VY would be with Kubiak. Trade down or get Bush.

He had great college career ...a great Nat'l Championship game ...THAT'S IT?? Is that not enough? What then do we base a collegiate player's worth on? Wow! The 2-14 Texans had many problems ...McNair made a step in the right direction by firing Capers ...and Capers is a great guy ...the next step is getting rid of Carr ...also a great guy. Nothing personal ...business never is.

Capers' downfall was that he allowed a GREAT defense go to pot all at once. That defense carried the team while we waited for Carr to get the offense on pace (which never happened). We lost two pro-bowlers in Sharper & Glenn AND Gary Walker (might have been a PBer too) AND Foreman ...all defensive standouts ...ALL GONE ...PLUS ...he should've drafted Derrick Johnson (yeah he's from Texas too ...so what) What kind of coach lets all of his best defensive players go. YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK ...GOODBYE!

Bush is exceptional, but we've got a RB (who by the way JUST signed a 4 year contract extension) that has rushed for 1,000+ 3 yrs running. How about standing by THAT guy who has actually showed some promise.

David Carr has to take his lumps too. We can't keep blaming that offensive line. Yeah run blocking is different than pass blocking but the QB has to get rid of the ball in a timely fashion. They even had the WRs shortening their routes to help Carr beat the pressure ...HE JUST CAN'T GET IT DONE. It does no good to have Andre Johnson if we can't allow him to use his size and strength on this puny CBs down the field.

Draft Vince ...defenses have to play honest. No constant blitzing because he can make you pay. But he'll need help also ...

Free Agency
Josh McCown - QB - a great hardworking guy (fellow SHSU Alum)

Jonathan Wells - RB - resign him ...he's a hard worker with a great attitude
Michael Bennet - RB - if not, this guy is a speedy guy that would compliment Davis in the backfield.

Corey Bradford - WR - RESIGN HIM ....RIGHT NOW! Why are you still standing there???!!? Go NOWWWWW!
Other WRs Avail - Josh Reed, Reggie Wayne, Koren Robinson
Terrell Owens - WR - Yeah yeah yeah, I know ...

Teyo Johnson - TE - Vince works really well with an athletic TE

OL - I don't know much about them ...umm ...get some good ones!

John Abraham - DE - If he's available ...you gotta make a run for him

Julian Peterson - OLB - see above

Charles Woodson - CB - Might be a risk at this point but he'd be a good role model for Dunta & Buchanan, but so was Aaron Glenn (whom I played HS ball with ...whatever that's worth ...yeah not much huh, lol)

Adam Archuleta - S - might be available, really solid guy
Keith Davis - S - Another Sam Houston State guy ...college numbers almost identical to Roy Williams at Oklahoma


You certainly can't go out and pick up ALL these guys ...but this is a good place to start ...McNair ...this one's on the house ...hit me up and we can strike up a deal for the next one.

AustinJB
02-04-2006, 01:40 AM
Please quit throwing those stats at me. Go rewatch the Oklahoma game and the Tech game. VY absoltely stunk up the house with his passing, er Flinging.
No what you have to go on is his past preformances.
If the franchise takes the guy I'll support it. But this ain't Austin. We don't have an all world OL and a bunch of smurfs running around wide open. This is the NFL wich means not for long if you can't hit a target on time and on target. To pay a guy, any guy fifty million or so to ride the pine is crazy. VY might make the transition. Then again, he might not. That sound you heard thursday was Kubes letting the VY guys gently. Gig'em. Might work out.

Well, I understand why you don't like stats....b/c they seem to prove that you're wrong. Yeah, VY can't hit a target on time and accurately....must be why he was among the league's elite in comp%.:brickwall

I'll tell you what is crazier than paying VY $50 mil to sit for a season to learn the NFL......it's paying Carr $50 mil to run around and make bad decisions for 4 years and when you have the chance to get someone potentially better, you sign him to an extension and keep dumping money on him b/c of HIS potential that he has yet to prove:stirpot:

Oh yeah....more stats for you. VY's "passing, er FLINGING" in the Oklahoma and Tx Tech game doesn't seem too bad to me (not his best games but productive and got the W.)

Vs. Oklahoma
14 of 27 for 241 passing yds, 3 TD
62 yds rushing

Vs. TxTech
12 of 22 for 239 passing yds, 2 TD
45 yds rushing

BTW, I find it amusing that most of VY's "bad" games that people point to show him to have productive passing yds and limited rushing yards.....yet the same people rip VY for only being able to run and not pass.:confused:

infantrycak
02-04-2006, 08:25 AM
Capers' downfall was that he allowed a GREAT defense go to pot all at once. That defense carried the team while we waited for Carr to get the offense on pace (which never happened). We lost two pro-bowlers in Sharper & Glenn AND Gary Walker (might have been a PBer too) AND Foreman ...all defensive standouts ...ALL GONE ...PLUS ...he should've drafted Derrick Johnson (yeah he's from Texas too ...so what) What kind of coach lets all of his best defensive players go. YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK ...GOODBYE!

Step away from the caps lock and let's get some facts involved. So a 24th ranked D is now GREAT? Better than 2005 definitely, but IMO to get described as good, much less great, you need to be in the top half of the league. Sharper never went to a pro-bowl and succumbed to an anticipated injury in Seattle. Walker did go to a pro-bowl. By the way, Walker is the only defensive player to have gone to the pro-bowl as a Texan--and they kept him. Glenn went in 2000 and 2001 as a Jet. I wanted to keep Glenn one more year, but he wasn't the best CB on the team by the end of the 2004 season. Foreman was such a defensive standout that when released by the Texans he couldn't even catch on anywhere as a backup player and sat last year out.

Now what you missed in there alone justifies sacking Capers--picking and keeping Fangio. That guy could coach Tiger Woods into a Boone's Farm besotted driving range pro.

Tha_Tinman
02-04-2006, 08:39 AM
Step away from the caps lock and let's get some facts involved. So a 24th ranked D is now GREAT? Better than 2005 definitely, but IMO to get described as good, much less great, you need to be in the top half of the league. Sharper never went to a pro-bowl and succumbed to an anticipated injury in Seattle. Walker did go to a pro-bowl. By the way, Walker is the only defensive player to have gone to the pro-bowl as a Texan--and they kept him. Glenn went in 2000 and 2001 as a Jet. I wanted to keep Glenn one more year, but he wasn't the best CB on the team by the end of the 2004 season. Foreman was such a defensive standout that when released by the Texans he couldn't even catch on anywhere as a backup player and sat last year out.



What I meant was ...the defense was good enough to win them SOME games. That terrible offense put them in some really bad situations via turnovers, inability to make st downs, and bad field position. The defense played way above their heads ...rankings be damned.

I think that was the major difference in the 2-14 season ...no defense to bail the offense out!

infantrycak
02-04-2006, 08:45 AM
What I meant was ...the defense was good enough to win them SOME games. That terrible offense put them in some really bad situations via turnovers, inability to make st downs, and bad field position. The defense played way above their heads ...rankings be damned.

I think that was the major difference in the 2-14 season ...no defense to bail the offense out!

We actually had the 19th ranked O in 2004 which fell to 30th in 2005 and the 24th ranked D in 2004 which fell to 31st. Basically a full team melt down (which points to coaching since the personnel turnover was not that great) but the O fell further than the D, 11 spots to 7--hey, the whole thing sucked so what's a few spots anyway.

Coach C.
02-04-2006, 09:03 AM
Infantry as a service man you know defense is more important than offense. Offense can be manufactured in many different ways. Defense if it is not up to par then it gets exposed. I aggree with your rebuttal to Tha_Tinman because his thought was not properly written, but I do agree that defense has to be a priority for this offseason if we want to see the most improvement.

infantrycak
02-04-2006, 09:17 AM
Infantry as a service man you know defense is more important than offense. Offense can be manufactured in many different ways. Defense if it is not up to par then it gets exposed. I aggree with your rebuttal to Tha_Tinman because his thought was not properly written, but I do agree that defense has to be a priority for this offseason if we want to see the most improvement.

With semantic or small differences we probably agree. German and American forces have shown the worth of counterattack as a defense and move toward offense--so I am not sure I totally agree on the military worth of D vs. O. Hard to think of an analogy for the football field. But in any event, I expect Kubiack to make the most out of incredibly underutilized O talent so with one or two pieces IMO (not necessarily high picks, but a TE and someone like Mangold) Kubiack should be able to make a significant leap. On D the picture is murkier and there are more positions in doubt so I would not mind at all seeing a D oriented draft.

Kaiser Toro
02-04-2006, 09:22 AM
Hard to think of an analogy for the football field.

Yeah I chopped your point up, but any excuse to quote Carlin is worth it. :)

Football is played on a GRIDIRON, in a STADIUM, sometimes called SOLDIER FIELD or WAR MEMORIAL STADIUM.

In football, the object is for the quarterback, otherwise known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his receivers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.