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View Full Version : Who else is in the "Win-Win-Win" crowd?


ThaShark316
01-23-2006, 06:34 PM
I've seen a few in that crowd. I just wanna see who wouldn't mind us doing one of the 3.

Draft Bush?
Draft Young?
Trade Down?

Honestly, I would welcome any one of those options. Some only want Vince, some only Bush, while some just want to trade down. IMO, regardless, I think it's a win-win-win situation.

GO TEXANS!!

Bubbajwp
01-23-2006, 07:20 PM
Im definetly in the win win win crowd.

My heart says take Young.
But I think Bush or trade down is the smart pick.

stevo3883
01-23-2006, 07:23 PM
This is how I see it

1- YAY I WON A NEW PORSCHE!
2- YAY I WON A NEW FERRARI!
3- YAY I WON A FREE OIL-CHANGE & TIRE ROTATION!

Grid
01-23-2006, 07:23 PM
eh.. honestly.. id like to say im in the win win win crowd.. but im not.

I really feel that taking Young would be a loss. But im not in charge so it doesnt really matter. Ill cheer for Young if he comes here... may even buy one of his jerseys.

Grid
01-23-2006, 07:25 PM
This is how I see it

1- YAY I WON A NEW PORSCHE!
2- YAY I WON A NEW FERRARI!
3- YAY I WON A FREE OIL-CHANGE & TIRE ROTATION!


ouch.. id think Mario Williams and a couple more picks in a draft this deep would be worth more than a free oil change.. in relation to a ferrari or porsche anyway :)

run-david-run
01-23-2006, 07:28 PM
Change VY to a Lexus-a well dusguised Toyota (cough, Mike Vick, cough)

stevo3883
01-23-2006, 07:29 PM
ouch.. id think Mario Williams and a couple more picks in a draft this deep would be worth more than a free oil change.. in relation to a ferrari or porsche anyway :)


thus the additional tire-rotation.

I honestly feel these two guys are so freaking rare that if you pass them up there in no possible way the 2 extra picks will come close to their potential.

Caesar
01-23-2006, 07:54 PM
I feel it's a win-win, not a win-win-win.

# 1. Trade the pick- win. The Texans may not end up with a glamorous or flashy player, but it would allow them to address their needs. Houston has not had an offensive line in it's history, so they could start there. They failed to address their holes at LB in last years draft when they inexplicably passed on Derrick Johnson after getting rid of Jamie Sharper, so how about AJ Hawk. The secondary is porous after inexplicably getting rid of Aaron Glenn, so rather than bringing in a liability like Philip Buchanon, they could draft a stud DB. They have no recieving tight end after inexplicably getting rid of Billy Miller, so they could grab one of the excellent TEs available this year. They could shore up all those areas by trading the # 1 pick for more picks.

# 2. Draft Vince Young- win. No, the Texans don't necessarily NEED a QB, but Vince is a once in a lifetime opportunity. He's a better and more versatile talent than Carr, and a proven leader. He would create an excitement around this franchise that we haven't seen since the franchise started in 2002. From a money standpoint, he would sell tickets and merchandise faster than they could produce it, and the Texans would immediately gain millions of new TV viewers around the state. If Bud Adams was smart enough to see this about Earl, surely McNair, Casserly and Kubiak are smart enough to see it this time. If they pass on this guy, it better be to address some needs, not to draft another non-need position.... like running back. It would be awfully hard to swallow when he's kicking our butts with the Titans twice a year, knowing that he could have been ours.

# 3. Draft Reggie Bush- lose. Okay, sure he's an exciting player, but he's not first pick good. He's a situational player, not an every down back, and there is no way you should waste a pick on a RB that will probably get the ball less than 15 times per game, considering that he won't be returning kicks (1/3 of his yardage production in college). On top of that, the Texans don't need a RB any more than they need a QB. The difference between VY and RB is that Vince brings all of the additional positives listed above. Bush means NOTHING to this community. Not to mention that the UT-Texan fans will be livid after being slighted two years in a row, and they make up a significant percentage of the Texans fan base. If the Texans brain trust picks Bush, it ain't gonna be pretty. It would be very hard to justify.

LBC_Justin
01-23-2006, 07:54 PM
I've seen a few in that crowd. I just wanna see who wouldn't mind us doing one of the 3.

Draft Bush?
Draft Young?
Trade Down?

Honestly, I would welcome any one of those options. Some only want Vince, some only Bush, while some just want to trade down. IMO, regardless, I think it's a win-win-win situation.

GO TEXANS!!I think it is win-win-win

But I see it this way.

Taking Bush lowest risk
Taking Young medium risk
Trading down high risk

But I think we are going to get great players anyway we go.

HardKnockTexan
01-23-2006, 08:04 PM
I think it is win-win-win

But I see it this way.

Taking Bush lowest risk
Taking Young medium risk
Trading down high risk

But I think we are going to get great players anyway we go.

I think you have it backwards.

Trading down would be the lowest risk. We would aquire more players in the upper first round giving us a bigger chance of landing a few starters.

Taking Bush seems to be a medium risk. He could be amazing or he could just be a productive player. Might even flop.

Taking Young is a huge risk with huge rewards. He might not ever be able to learn the NFL system... but if he does.. watch out.

LBC_Justin
01-23-2006, 08:06 PM
# 2. Draft Vince Young- win. No, the Texans don't necessarily NEED a QB, but Vince is a once in a lifetime opportunity. He's a better and more versatile talent than Carr, and a proven leader. He would create an excitement around this franchise that we haven't seen since the franchise started in 2002. From a money standpoint, he would sell tickets and merchandise faster than they could produce it, and the Texans would immediately gain millions of new TV viewers around the state. If Bud Adams was smart enough to see this about Earl, surely McNair, Casserly and Kubiak are smart enough to see it this time. If they pass on this guy, it better be to address some needs, not to draft another non-need position.... like running back. It would be awefully hard to swallow when he's kicking our butts with the Titans every year, knowing that he could have been ours.

# 3. Draft Reggie Bush- lose. Okay, sure he's an exciting player, but he's not first pick good. He's a situational player, not an every down back, and there is no way you should waste a pick on a RB that will probably get the ball less than 15 times per game, considering that he won't be returning kicks (1/3 of his yardage production in college). On top of that, the Texans don't need a RB any more than they need a QB. The difference between VY and RB is that Vince brings all of the additional positives listed above. Bush means NOTHING to this community. Not to mention that the UT-Texan fans will be livid after being slighted two years in a row, and they make up a significant percentage of the Texans fan base. If the Texans brain trust picks Bush, it ain't gonna be pretty. It would be very hard to justify.
You are amazingly Bias.

Reggie Bush is not worthy of the #1 pick, and is a situational player.
Vince Young is a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Lets not forget that Vince takes every snap from shotgun, plays behind the best O-line in college football, and has marginal arm strength and a goofy (but effective) throwing motion. If the Texans don't take Vince Young he will probably won't even be the first QB taken. Wow, what a "once in a lifetime opportunity".

Earl Campbell was the universal #1 pick in that years draft. Every team wanted him with the #1 pick. In an ESPN poll taken after the Rose Bowl every state including Texas thought that Reggie Bush should be the #1 pick.

Hook'em Horns - Oh I am a Longhorn and I even went to the Rose Bowl game. I support the Horns and Vince Young but taking him with the #1 pick is CRAZY TALK in my opinion. If we could trade down and take him at #3 then great but at #1.....not worth it, sorry.

:redtowel: GO TEXANS!!!:redtowel:

LBC_Justin
01-23-2006, 08:19 PM
I think you have it backwards.

Trading down would be the lowest risk. We would aquire more players in the upper first round giving us a bigger chance of landing a few starters.

Taking Bush seems to be a medium risk. He could be amazing or he could just be a productive player. Might even flop.

Taking Young is a huge risk with huge rewards. He might not ever be able to learn the NFL system... but if he does.. watch out.
According the "Experts", if you look at situations in which teams traded down it almost always worked out better for the team that traded up to get the better pick. On the flip side you could get several GREAT players and this has happend but that is very very low probability. You usually end up trading a Peyton Manning to get a few Jason Babins and Kaliee Wongs at best.

Reggie Bush is the safe bet. At worst he will be a very very good starter. At best he is the league MVP. The transition from the college game to the pro game is not nearly as harsh as it is for a QB. Thus making him a pretty safe bet. (No I don't expect him to average almost 9 yards a carry in the pros but 4.5 would be nice ;) )
Main risk:
1. As with every player there is a risk of injury.

Vince Young carries several risks.
1. There is the risk he will never mentally be able to pick up the NFL game, currently the offensive he plays in is NOTHING like a pro offense. His physical gifts are so amazing that mental side of his game has me covered up. This will be tested in the pros.
2. His passing abilities are a big question mark. His arm strength is not anything to write home about.
3. If he has any kind of injury that slows him down he will no longer be Vince Young, he will be an average QB at best. The threat of him running makes him the passer and the runner that he is.

I am not hating on VY. I love the guy. I am just being real. I am first and foremost a Texans fan. Not a fan of a single player.

Caesar
01-23-2006, 08:20 PM
And what makes Reggie Bush worth the # 1 pick, out of curiosity?

Bubbajwp
01-23-2006, 08:25 PM
And what makes Reggie Bush worth the # 1 pick, out of curiosity?
Here is a start

Reggie Bush: 2005

TCB YDS AVG TD REC YDS AVG TD KOR YDS AVG PR YDS AVG TD
187 1,658 8.9 15 31 383 12.4 2 23 391 17.0 18 179 9.9 1



Winner of the Doak Walker Award and Walter Camp Award.
Pigskin Club of Washington D.C. Offensive Player of the Year.
Was 1 of 3 finalists for the 2005 Maxwell Award and 1 of 4 finalists for the Cingular-ABC Sports All-America Player of the Year Award.
He made the 2005 Football Coaches, Football Writers, Walter Camp, ESPN.com, SI.com and CBS Sportsline.com All-American first teams.
He was named the 2005 Pac-10 Offensive Player of the Year for the second consecutive year (just the fifth player ever so honored and the first non-quarterback to do it in 20 years) and also made the All-Pac-10 first team as a tailback (the squad's only unanimous pick) and second team as a punt returner.
He was USC's team MVP (for the second consecutive year) and won the USC Player of the Game versus Notre Dame, Co-Player of the Game versus UCLA, Co-Lifter and Jack Oakie "Rise and Shine" (for longest run) awards.
He is currently first nationally in all-purpose running (217.6, first in Pac-10), fourth in rushing (138.2, second in Pac-10) and tied for 18th in scoring (9.0, tied for fifth in Pac-10).
His 8.9 yards per carry in 2005--nearly a first down every carry--is tops in the nation.
With 1,658 rushing yards in 2005, he became USC's 24th 1,000-yard runner (his first time).
His 1,658 rushing yards (sixth on USC's season rushing list and ninth on the Pac-10 season chart) are the most at USC since Marcus Allen's 2,427 in his 1981 Heisman Trophy season.
He is averaging 10.1 yards on his 259 touches in 2005 (he has 2,611 all-purpose yards, within range of Marcus Allen's USC and Pac-10 record of 2,683 in 1981 and ninth on the USC season list).
The average length of his 16 touchdowns in 2005 is 31.9 yards.
He is averaging a touchdown every 14.4 times he touches the ball in 2005 (18 TDs on 259 touches).
His 5 consecutive 100-yard rushing games in 2005 (Arkansas, Oregon, Arizona State, Arizona State, Notre Dame) was the first time a Trojan did that since Ricky Ervins also had 5 in a row in 1989.
He has rushed for 100 yards 11 times in his career (8 times in 2005, the most in a season by a Trojan since Ricky Ervins had 9 in 1989).
In USC's 5 games against AP ranked opponents in 2005, he is averaging 198.8 rushing yards (10.0 per carry), with 10 rushing TDs, and 302.2 all-purpose yards.
He and Marcus Allen are the only Trojans to twice rush for at least 260 yards in a game.
He is the only Trojan to rush for 200 yards twice against UCLA.
His combined 554 rushing yards versus Fresno State (294) and UCLA (260) were the most ever by a Trojan in back-to-back games.
He has 93 plays of 20-plus yards in his career (including 36 in 2005).
He caught a pass in 27 consecutive games before his streak was snapped against UCLA in 2005.
He has 6,338 all-purpose yards in his career, averaging 10.3 yards on each of his 615 touches, to rank second in USC history (behind Charles White's 7,226 in 1976-79) and 13th in NCAA history.
In his career, he has averaged a touchdown every 15.0 times he touches the ball (41 TDs on 615 touches).
His 2 seasons with 2,000-plus all-purpose yards (he had 2,330 in 2004) ties an NCAA record.
He has produced touchdowns 5 different ways as a Trojan (rushing, receiving, kickoff returns, punt returns and passing).
He has scored 41 TDs in his 38-game career (24 rushing, 13 receiving, 1 on kickoff returns, 3 on punt returns).
His 3,087 career rushing yards is seventh on USC's career chart.
He is averaging 7.4 yards per carry in his career (420 rushes).
His 89 career receptions is 19th on USC's career ladder.
His 1,420 career kickoff return yards is second on USC's all-time list and his 559 career punt return yards is fifth on USC's all-time chart.

Bubbajwp
01-23-2006, 08:28 PM
More

GAME-BY-GAME WITH REGGIE BUSH

2005 TCB YDS AVG TD LG REC YDS AVG TD LG
Hawaii* 12 86 7.2 2 41 4 58 14.5 0 20
Arkansas* 8 125 15.6 1 76 3 70 23.3 1 40
Oregon* 20 122 6.1 1 38 3 43 14.3 1 19
Arizona St.* 17 158 9.3 2 34 1 4 4.0 0 4
Arizona* 14 110 7.9 0 65 2 16 8.0 0 10
Notre Dame* 15 160 10.7 3 35 4 35 8.8 0 13
Washington* 8 51 6.4 1 11 2 18 9.0 0 12
Wash. St.* 17 97 5.7 0 14 4 40 10.0 0 17
Stanford* 12 113 9.4 1 42 4 27 6.8 0 9
California* 17 82 4.8 0 20 1 4 4.0 0 4
Fresno St.* 23 294 12.8 2 65 3 68 22.7 0 43
UCLA
2005 (Jr.)... 163 1398 8.6 13 76 31 383 12.4 2 43



2005 KOR YDS AVG TD LG PR YDS AVG TD LG
Hawaii* 1 14 14.0 0 14 0 0 0.0 0 0
Arkansas* 2 16 8.0 0 10 0 0 0.0 0 0
Oregon* 3 75 25.0 0 30 4 27 6.8 0 24
Arizona St.* 1 18 18.0 0 18 3 13 4.3 0 11
Arizona* 1 17 17.0 0 17 0 0 0.0 0 0
Notre Dame* 4 57 14.3 0 20 3 13 4.3 0 21
Washington* 2 32 16.0 0 21 1 84 84.0 1 84
Wash. St.* 0 0 0.0 0 0 4 19 4.8 0 9
Stanford* 1 15 15.0 0 15 1 6 6.0 0 6
California* 0 0 0.0 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0
Fresno St.* 7 135 19.3 0 30 1 16 16.0 0 16
UCLA
2005 (Jr.)... 22 379 17.2 0 30 17 178 10.5 1 84


*Starter

BUSH'S 2005 PLAYS OF 20+ YARDS


Hawaii 2 (41 TD, 20)
Arkansas 1 (65)
Notre Dame 5 (36 TD, 21, 45 TD, 22, 20)
Washington 2 (84 TD, 21)
Stanford 1 (42)
California 1 (20)
Fresno St. 10 (28, 65, 30, 21, 35, 45 TD, 25, 50 TD, 20, 43)
2005 (Jr.)... 33

Runner
01-23-2006, 08:29 PM
This is how I see it

1- YAY I WON A NEW PORSCHE!
2- YAY I WON A NEW FERRARI!
3- YAY I WON A FREE OIL-CHANGE & TIRE ROTATION!

ouch.. id think Mario Williams and a couple more picks in a draft this deep would be worth more than a free oil change.. in relation to a ferrari or porsche anyway :)

More like two BMWs and a Mercedes - and they aren't as expensive if they break like the Porsche and Ferrari.

Tale Gator
01-23-2006, 08:34 PM
Vince Young/ Bush is definitely a win/win IMHO -- trading down is probably a win as well, but that goes against the gambler in me. :howdy:

Runner
01-23-2006, 08:34 PM
I think you have it backwards.

Trading down would be the lowest risk. We would aquire more players in the upper first round giving us a bigger chance of landing a few starters.

Taking Bush seems to be a medium risk. He could be amazing or he could just be a productive player. Might even flop.

Taking Young is a huge risk with huge rewards. He might not ever be able to learn the NFL system... but if he does.. watch out.

That's basically the way I see the risk/reward. Between the two, I think Bush may have the higher reward/risk ratio, while Young may have the highest potential reward.

I think it is win-win-win; I prefer a trade for at least a proven veteran and a couple of high picks.

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 08:36 PM
We need a running back about as much as the Saints do. We've got three Hosses.... Gary Kubiak, a run blocking offensive line, and if we can get L'Charles Bently.... wE're going to be spitting RBs out like a frikkin factory... people will be beggin us for our backs, and offering crazy made deals to get them.

LoneStarState
01-23-2006, 08:44 PM
Option 1: Draft Reggie Bush
Option 2: Trade no further than 4th
Option 3: Trade no further than 5th

:twocents:

As for the multitude of RBs... I'm sure that Tony Hollings is an expensive lesson (expensive in that it cost us a 2nd round pick). He should be traded for an extra pick if at all possible. That leaves DD and Jonathan Wells. Keep both. Heck, use Bush, DD, and Wells - along with AJ and Mathis. Could Wells be an H-back? maybe. Possibly could be built into a TE. If Wells isn't resigned, then we have Morency. Either way, we gain one RB (Reggie Bush) and lose another (Hollings or Wells) we will have the same number we have now.

HoustonFrog
01-23-2006, 08:50 PM
#3 is a win until you hand it to Casserly and then it is the highest risk thing you have. If they stay true to their word and Reeves has his say while Kubiak takes the guy he wants...I'll trust that.

As for Bush only touching it 15 times, you are right compared to a QB but you also have to remember that having a guy with that speed and ability actually makes the QB, other receivers and the whole offense better even when he doesn't touch it because the defense has to look for him thus opening up things. It is more than just touching it.

VY, gifted, talented leader

So Win, win, win if Charlie isn't mixed too much in it.

Caesar
01-23-2006, 08:50 PM
Okay, you can take all that kickoff and punt return yardage off, as I understand that the Texans wouldn't be using him as a return man. That takes away one third of his productivity right away. Then you factor in his competition against PAC 10 "defenses" for lack of a better word. If you watched the Rose Bowl, you saw his probable pro career. A few electrifying long runs, and the rest getting stuffed by fast, disciplined defenders. That's with the opposing defense also worrying about Lendale White and Matt Leinart. The Texans don't have a Lendale White or a Matt Leinart to keep defenses honest.

Bush isn't going to be the kind of every down back that you can count on to drive your offense down the field 4, 5, 6 yards at a time. He's not powerful or durable enough. If we really needed a running back (which we don't), then I'd trade down to about # 5, get some additional picks, and then take Lendale White, who is the better every down prosect.

TexanBacker93
01-23-2006, 08:53 PM
I'm actually a win, win, neutral, win person, with the 4th option being they hook me up with the cheerleader of my choice and I get a signing bonus on top of that. It won't happen, but I'd still be happy with it.


I'm only neutral if they don't make the best use of the picks on a trade down. If they grab a Hawk, or DBrick, or Williams, or someone else that makes an impact this season along with another pick next season that would be tremendous.

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 09:04 PM
Okay, you can take all that kickoff and punt return yardage off, as I understand that the Texans wouldn't be using him as a return man. That takes away one third of his productivity right away. Then you factor in his competition against PAC 10 "defenses" for lack of a better word. If you watched the Rose Bowl, you saw his probable pro career. A few electrifying long runs, and the rest getting stuffed by fast, disciplined defenders. That's with the opposing defense also worrying about Lendale White and Matt Leinart. The Texans don't have a Lendale White or a Matt Leinart to keep defenses honest.

Bush isn't going to be the kind of every down back that you can count on to drive your offense down the field 4, 5, 6 yards at a time. He's not powerful or durable enough. If we really needed a running back (which we don't), then I'd trade down to about # 5, get some additional picks, and then take Lendale White, who is the better every down prosect.


The only way I see Bush being all he can be, is if he goes to a team like Indy, St Louis, or a tru west coast team. Where your RB is more of a threat as a reciever. IF we are trying to build a running team, We've got the backs for that, we just need the system, which I hear is on the way.

YodAa
01-23-2006, 09:09 PM
win - Bush
win - Young
win - TheBrick
win - Super Mario
win - AJ Hawk
win - Duke Davis

I'm with that crowd

Texans_Chick
01-23-2006, 09:22 PM
I think you have it backwards.

Trading down would be the lowest risk. We would aquire more players in the upper first round giving us a bigger chance of landing a few starters.

Taking Bush seems to be a medium risk. He could be amazing or he could just be a productive player. Might even flop.

Taking Young is a huge risk with huge rewards. He might not ever be able to learn the NFL system... but if he does.. watch out.

Well said.

Trading down is one of those things that when it happens, it is a ???? because you don't know how it is going to turn out. You don't know whether to be happy or sad until all the stuff is said and done. I mean, you don't know how VY or Bush are gonna be either, but at least you have a sense of who they are. Various draft picks this year and next year is that whole deferred gratification thing--it is sometimes good for you, but boy in the meantime it isn't that much fun.

For me, this draft is a weird one because Bush or VY or Leinart for that matter, would all be legit #1 picks in year where it wasn't so competitive at the top of the draft. Leinart, I could be wrong about, but I am thinking that we have seen him at the top of his potential.

Bush and VY could both be freaky good. Even though the development is delayed, I would rather have the freaky good QB over the freaky good RB because of the number of touches thing. But I can see the other scenarios as being wins too, as long as VY doesn't become the BQE. ;)

LBC_Justin
01-23-2006, 11:24 PM
Okay, you can take all that kickoff and punt return yardage off, as I understand that the Texans wouldn't be using him as a return man. That takes away one third of his productivity right away. Then you factor in his competition against PAC 10 "defenses" for lack of a better word. If you watched the Rose Bowl, you saw his probable pro career. A few electrifying long runs, and the rest getting stuffed by fast, disciplined defenders. That's with the opposing defense also worrying about Lendale White and Matt Leinart. The Texans don't have a Lendale White or a Matt Leinart to keep defenses honest.

Bush isn't going to be the kind of every down back that you can count on to drive your offense down the field 4, 5, 6 yards at a time. He's not powerful or durable enough. If we really needed a running back (which we don't), then I'd trade down to about # 5, get some additional picks, and then take Lendale White, who is the better every down prosect.LOL - On the West Coast they talk about how amazingly WEAK "Big 12".

Can you blame them. Who did Texas play in the Big 12 championship.

I think the RoseBowl speaks for it's self.

But here is a key difference between VY and Reggie Bush.

If Lendale White converts the 4th and 2 and the game ends with USC as the winner Vince Young goes back to school because he won't be close to a TOP 10 pick in this years draft.

Too many people are grabbing at the emotions that overcome them when he won the game for the Longhorns and projecting that on how he will do in the NFL. It is unlikely. He might be good. But not worth the rist of the #1 overall pick.

After seeing Steve Smith return that punt for a touchdown, I expect them to tinker with having Bush return punts. I have sure he will be opposite Mathis to return punts. He would make our special teams that much more special. Why wouldn't we use him there. oh that's right some guy on ESPN said it isn't a good idea. Nonsense, if we get him, then we get the ball into his hands as much as possible. We run him 15-25 times a game, have him return punts.

Reggie Bush is more likely to be Reggie Bush in the pros, than Vince Young is to be Vince Young in the pros. Being an NFL QB requires a HUGE learning curve. Based on his football experience at University of Texas(my school) he is behind the curve. They dumbed the system down and kept it simple to exploit his amazing atheletic talents.

travfrancis
01-24-2006, 12:00 AM
"I really feel that taking Young would be a loss. But im not in charge so it doesnt really matter. Ill cheer for Young if he comes here... may even buy one of his jerseys."

lol Grid, i've seen your posts here, you do do quite a bit of flip-floping - which is fine, its ok to change your mind when new evidence is presented

trust me man, if we drafted vince, you'd become a fan big time, you can't not be a fan of that guy when hes on your team. he's is going to be a superstar in this league, and i sure hope its for the Texans.

HardKnockTexan
01-24-2006, 12:09 AM
Well said.

Trading down is one of those things that when it happens, it is a ???? because you don't know how it is going to turn out. You don't know whether to be happy or sad until all the stuff is said and done. I mean, you don't know how VY or Bush are gonna be either, but at least you have a sense of who they are. Various draft picks this year and next year is that whole deferred gratification thing--it is sometimes good for you, but boy in the meantime it isn't that much fun.

For me, this draft is a weird one because Bush or VY or Leinart for that matter, would all be legit #1 picks in year where it wasn't so competitive at the top of the draft. Leinart, I could be wrong about, but I am thinking that we have seen him at the top of his potential.

Bush and VY could both be freaky good. Even though the development is delayed, I would rather have the freaky good QB over the freaky good RB because of the number of touches thing. But I can see the other scenarios as being wins too, as long as VY doesn't become the BQE. ;)

Okay.. say that Vince Young and Reggie Bush both meet or beat the expectations put on them I still see a big reason to trade down. I am having a tough time thinking of a team that has won a championship with either a QB OR a runningback that has recieved this much hype and attention predraft. Having a big name flashy player on the Texans would be great. I love my team and I think its great when we recieve national media coverage, which is what both of these players would bring. I dont know what it feels like for my team to bring home a superbowl.I lived and died with the run & shoot Oilers as a kid, but they never got it done. Thought it was amazing when the Rockets brought home back to back championships. When the Astros won the pennant I couldnt of been more proud. Football is where my heart's at. As much as I love watching players like Barry Sanders, Mike Vick, T.O, Randy Moss and all the rest of the flashy big name players do their thing on the field, they've never brought home what matters most. I want to win and I'm willing to give up the big name superstar for a TEAM of hard workers.

This draft is more exciting than the regular season was. Its a win win win situation IMO and the Texans will always be my team. Maybe I'm just trying to not be disapointed when they do trade down because I'd love to see Young or Bush out on the field just as much as everyone else does.

Spoda
01-24-2006, 07:14 AM
1. draft young...lose...unless you trade carr with is highly unlikely
2. draft bush...win...but he's not a priority
3. trade..win win...because we will be able to fill holes when kubiak throws out the trash

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 07:16 AM
Reggie Bush is more likely to be Reggie Bush in the pros, than Vince Young is to be Vince Young in the pros. Being an NFL QB requires a HUGE learning curve. Based on his football experience at University of Texas(my school) he is behind the curve. They dumbed the system down and kept it simple to exploit his amazing atheletic talents.


And no one in the Big Twelve(including Ohio State, Nebraska, and Oklahoma), or USC could stop it/him.

HoustonFrog
01-24-2006, 08:09 AM
Okay.. say that Vince Young and Reggie Bush both meet or beat the expectations put on them I still see a big reason to trade down. I am having a tough time thinking of a team that has won a championship with either a QB OR a runningback that has recieved this much hype and attention predraft.

And I have a hard time thinking of many SB winners that didn't have a franchise Back or QB, somethign we have neither of IMHO. Trading down is something i love to look at if we get some defensive playmakers but it leaves me with two bad tastes in my mouth....1)Casserly with the picks and 2) the same offensive players who scare no one(sans AJ). #1 can be corrected by taking the reins away. #2 will be tough.

Texans_Chick
01-24-2006, 08:51 AM
Reggie Bush is more likely to be Reggie Bush in the pros, than Vince Young is to be Vince Young in the pros. Being an NFL QB requires a HUGE learning curve. Based on his football experience at University of Texas(my school) he is behind the curve. They dumbed the system down and kept it simple to exploit his amazing atheletic talents.

And Steve McNair played for Alcorn State and Daunte Culpepper played for Central Florida and Ben Roethlisberger played for Miami of Ohio.

VY didn't play a pro-style offense but he did play harder competition in college than all of those QBs I just mentioned, did it on the biggest stage with one of the biggest pressure QB situations in the country, and seemed to thrive in that environment.

Boy he would be some talent to polish. Pick any number of QB busts, and their college stats and/or athletic ability and size will fall short of VY.

cadahnic
01-24-2006, 09:05 AM
People there is no need to knock VY or Bush, I would feel we all know thier strengths and weaknesses. VY will be a good QB and a better version of Randall Cunningham, which is really damn good. Bush will be a good back, a better version of Warrick Dunn, that is rookie of the year, and also pretty damn good. But does their overall excellence outweigh the excellence of Mario Williams, a Julius Peppers or Mike Rucker type of guy, and Max Gean Gilles, and whatever OT, and whatever other pick we get from the trade down. I have always been in the trade down camp, will always be, but at first I was nervous to turn the reigns over to Cass, but Kubiak will make the decisions in this draft, so I feel a little better. I think in the long run whichever is chosen will lead to wins...

profan
01-24-2006, 09:45 AM
Well, i've said all along, that at the end of the draft, we will have a much better team. This along with some good coaching should make next season alot more fun. Looking forward to playing some meaningful games in Nov. and Dec.

Porky
01-24-2006, 09:51 AM
I am most definetely in the win-win-win camp.

The least risky from a bust perspective is Bush imo, as at worst I see him as a Warrick Dunn, or Brian Westbrook clone. Of course, that means he probably wasn't worthy of the #1 pick, but otoh, that would mean he is a productive player in the NFL for years, so the downside risk is low. The upside is you get a superstar who is also an extremely versatile player, someone who has the moves of a Barry Sanders and the versatility of a Marshall Faulk. Would the Rams have made the SB without Faulk? It's a point worth mentioning.

In the middle is the trade down scenerio. It's risk is basically an unknown simply because we cannot attach specific names to the picks and/or players we receive in return. Casserly has done pretty well with the high picks, Reeves may have some input, and Kubiak certainly will. The biggest risk imo is actually passing up a potential superstar, in favor of players who are meerly "good", rather than any potential bust that may be selected with the picks we receive. While you need a base of good players, it is the superstars who carry their teams to multiple SB's.

Lastly, Young imo has the biggest downside risk, and also the biggest upside potential. I am more in the upside camp with this guy, but there is no denying he has more "bust" potential than Bush. I really doubt he does, as I see the type of intangibles that other busts in hindsight did not have...never the less, there is risk. OTOH, the upside potential is absouletly through the roof, the type of QB that other future QB's are measured against. The type of QB who wills his team to win after win, and multiple playoff and SB victories. The guy who carries his team on his shoulders, and carries them to untold heights. This is the type of potential he has imo. The sky is the limit with Young.

I am really okay with whatever they choose, as all three paths make us better in the long run. Now, it's up to our new head coach to decide the path that he thinks is best for us. He will lead, and I as a fan, will follow and hope for the best. :redtowel:

TheOgre
01-24-2006, 10:04 AM
I'll be happy with any of the three scenarios. It is all about getting better and we almost cannot help but get better with our position in the draft (provided people help Casserly make the "smart" pick).

whiskeyrbl
01-24-2006, 10:06 AM
Ever heard of Tony Dorsett(which by the way was the same size as Bush)or an Emmitt Smith.

LBC_Justin
01-24-2006, 10:34 AM
And Steve McNair played for Alcorn State and Daunte Culpepper played for Central Florida and Ben Roethlisberger played for Miami of Ohio.

VY didn't play a pro-style offense but he did play harder competition in college than all of those QBs I just mentioned, did it on the biggest stage with one of the biggest pressure QB situations in the country, and seemed to thrive in that environment.

Boy he would be some talent to polish. Pick any number of QB busts, and their college stats and/or athletic ability and size will fall short of VY.
I'll give you that VY is an amazing athelete. But in College his stats were not even better than David Carrs. (Let alone is he a "once in a life time talent" that others have claimed him to be.)

David Carr's Senior Year Stats
64.5% completions
42 Touchdowns
9 Interceptions
4308 yards passing
531 yards rushing

Vince Young Senior Year Stats
65.2 %
26 Touchdowns
10 Interceptions
3036 yards passing
1050 yards rushing

Vince is a great player and an amazingly strong and fast. But lets remember their is big difference between the college and the pros.

The FACT(not opionion) remains that Vince Young took every snap from shotgun and didn't drop back to pass. There is a huge difference between these two. This means it is unknown how he will perform, thus he is a RISKY prospect. Plus he isn't going to get any faster. So over time his running ability will decrease, and as a passer he isn't Top 10 material by a long shot.

I still love the guy, and would be all for us picking him if we had a draft pick between 3-10. And if we do end up picking him with the first pick I will by his jersey and support him to the end. But for now I hope we go another direction unless we trade down to get him.

Hook'em Horns!!!
Go Texans!!!

chall8
01-24-2006, 10:51 AM
I'm pretty much a win-win-win guy.

My heart wants to take Young. I also think it'd be a solid "football-based" decision to do so as I think he has much more upside than Carr.

That being said, this team has so many holes that I think trading the pick makes the most sense.

As for Bush, wouldn't mind having him on my team but I think it's foolish to take a running back with #1 pick, considering we already have solid RBs and we have so many other needs.

Big B Texan Fan
01-24-2006, 10:53 AM
I'll give you that VY is an amazing athelete. But in College his stats were not even better than David Carrs. (Let alone is he a "once in a life time talent" that others have claimed him to be.)

David Carr's Senior Year Stats
64.5% completions
42 Touchdowns
9 Interceptions
4308 yards passing
531 yards rushing

Vince Young Senior Year Stats
65.2 %
26 Touchdowns
10 Interceptions
3036 yards passing
1050 yards rushing

Vince is a great player and an amazingly strong and fast.
Carr played in all but 2 of his 4th qtr's. Finished most of games and lost a couple as well.
Vince played in 3 or 4 of his 4th qtr's. Finished few of his games. Went undefeated as well. Won a Ntl' Chmpshp. And was the highest rated/recruited player coming out of HS to college. Not highest QB, highest player.

Carr had a monster senior season. But so did Ragone one season then all of his talent left and he decided to stay as a senoir and his draft stock dropped as well as his team losing more games than expected. Carr would've suffered the sam fate if his talent left him.
VY had Roy williams leave one season, and Ced Benson the next, as well as some other talent. He lost 1 game in 2 seasons and won the rose bowl in'05 and the Ntl Chp in "06.

Maddict5
01-24-2006, 11:06 AM
i think a trade-down would be my preferred option and would make the most football sense
then draft bush if there isnt a trade.
drafting young would be a big mistake cos he is a big ? and with no.1 overall you should be choosing a cant miss player

LBC_Justin
01-24-2006, 11:13 AM
Carr played in all but 2 of his 4th qtr's. Finished most of games and lost a couple as well.
Vince played in 3 or 4 of his 4th qtr's. Finished few of his games. Went undefeated as well. Won a Ntl' Chmpshp. And was the highest rated/recruited player coming out of HS to college. Not highest QB, highest player.

Carr had a monster senior season. But so did Ragone one season then all of his talent left and he decided to stay as a senoir and his draft stock dropped as well as his team losing more games than expected. Carr would've suffered the sam fate if his talent left him.
VY had Roy williams leave one season, and Ced Benson the next, as well as some other talent. He lost 1 game in 2 seasons and won the rose bowl in'05 and the Ntl Chp in "06.Texas is a much deeper program. Even the backup at Texas are good......LOL of course you already knew that.:)



Hook'em Horns

stevo3883
01-24-2006, 11:15 AM
I'll give you that VY is an amazing athelete. But in College his stats were not even better than David Carrs. (Let alone is he a "once in a life time talent" that others have claimed him to be.)

David Carr's Senior Year Stats
64.5% completions
42 Touchdowns
9 Interceptions
4308 yards passing
531 yards rushing

Vince Young Senior Year Stats
65.2 %
26 Touchdowns
10 Interceptions
3036 yards passing
1050 yards rushing

Vince is a great player and an amazingly strong and fast. But lets remember their is big difference between the college and the pros.

The FACT(not opionion) remains that Vince Young took every snap from shotgun and didn't drop back to pass. There is a huge difference between these two. This means it is unknown how he will perform, thus he is a RISKY prospect. Plus he isn't going to get any faster. So over time his running ability will decrease, and as a passer he isn't Top 10 material by a long shot.

I still love the guy, and would be all for us picking him if we had a draft pick between 3-10. And if we do end up picking him with the first pick I will by his jersey and support him to the end. But for now I hope we go another direction unless we trade down to get him.

Hook'em Horns!!!
Go Texans!!!

you call yourself a longhorn, then make all these statements that make you look like a yuo saw 1 or 2 games all year.

"Vince took all of his snaps in the shotgun" no, he didn't. Not true and you even called it a "fact". Im not sure how many UT games they showed in california, but it obviously wasnt very many. he took maybe 75%


then you pull out Carr's stats. first- he played in the WAC for god's sake!
second- Vince played only 3 games into the 4th quarter (OSU, A&M, USC) and truth be told Mack usually shut down the passing game completely in the second half because UT was up by 30-40. He could easily have another 1000 passing and 10 tds if he had acutally ran the UT offense in the second halves of games.
third- Carr played in the WAC!!!
fourth- Jeff Tedford... hello...

and then you say "and neither is he a once in a lifetime talent others make him to be"- ok, so please, tell me all these others with as much talent as him. let me guess, Vick? the quarterback with the size of a RB?

edo783
01-24-2006, 11:27 AM
you call yourself a longhorn, then make all these statements that make you look like a yuo saw 1 or 2 games all year.

"Vince took all of his snaps in the shotgun" no, he didn't. Not true and you even called it a "fact". Im not sure how many UT games they showed in california, but it obviously wasnt very many. he took maybe 75%


then you pull out Carr's stats. first- he played in the WAC for god's sake!
second- Vince played only 3 games into the 4th quarter (OSU, A&M, USC) and truth be told Mack usually shut down the passing game completely in the second half because UT was up by 30-40. He could easily have another 1000 passing and 10 tds if he had acutally ran the UT offense in the second halves of games.
third- Carr played in the WAC!!!
fourth- Jeff Tedford... hello...

and then you say "and neither is he a once in a lifetime talent others make him to be"- ok, so please, tell me all these others with as much talent as him. let me guess, Vick? the quarterback with the size of a RB?

Yup, and it's been reported in the press that they played the "Zone Read" offense which is a simple one, and they had to simplify that down for Vince. He also is reported to have not done what Mack Brown wanted and they just had to let him play, which worked out, but indicates he may be an un-coachable type. These are things that should concern anyone that thinks he might be an NFL level QB and HAVE to be sorted out before they draft him. Yes, I know, he shoots lightning boltz out his backside and cures cancer and all, but these are reported items that should be of concern.

nflnutswife
01-24-2006, 11:29 AM
Win, Win and I keep my Vett! :redtowel:

stevo3883
01-24-2006, 11:30 AM
Yup, and it's been reported in the press that they played the "Zone Read" offense which is a simple one, and they had to simplify that down for Vince. He also is reported to have not done what Mack Brown wanted and they just had to let him play, which worked out, but indicates he may be an un-coachable type. These are things that should concern anyone that thinks he might be an NFL level QB and HAVE to be sorted out before they draft him. Yes, I know, he shoots lightning boltz out his backside and cures cancer and all, but these are reported items that should be of concern.


they didnt "have to simplify it" for vince, they just made and offense that utilized his running skills.

"He also is reported to have not done what Mack Brown wanted " please please please, show me this. what a load of BS. "might be uncoachable" LOL god you're full of it. Vince Young is the reason Mack Brown is still the coach at texas.

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 11:32 AM
Yup, and it's been reported in the press that they played the "Zone Read" offense which is a simple one, and they had to simplify that down for Vince. He also is reported to have not done what Mack Brown wanted and they just had to let him play, which worked out, but indicates he may be an un-coachable type. These are things that should concern anyone that thinks he might be an NFL level QB and HAVE to be sorted out before they draft him. Yes, I know, he shoots lightning boltz out his backside and cures cancer and all, but these are reported items that should be of concern.


Actually, it wasn't that he couldn't do what Mack Brown wanted, it was that it wasn't working for him and his team. In fact, he sat down with Mac Brown, and convinced Mac to try things Vince's way..... the rest is history. These are the actions of a leader, a mature and effective communicator. You ask Mac Brown about the discussion, and the situation, and there is no way you'll get him to put a negative spin on it.
His improvement over the last three years, should point to his coachability, his work ethic, and his inner burn for greatness.

done88
01-24-2006, 11:32 AM
We can't lose on the field I just hope the fans understand that

Glacier
01-24-2006, 11:36 AM
Carr played in all but 2 of his 4th qtr's. Finished most of games and lost a couple as well.
Vince played in 3 or 4 of his 4th qtr's. Finished few of his games. Went undefeated as well. Won a Ntl' Chmpshp. And was the highest rated/recruited player coming out of HS to college. Not highest QB, highest player.

Carr had a monster senior season. But so did Ragone one season then all of his talent left and he decided to stay as a senoir and his draft stock dropped as well as his team losing more games than expected. Carr would've suffered the sam fate if his talent left him.
VY had Roy williams leave one season, and Ced Benson the next, as well as some other talent. He lost 1 game in 2 seasons and won the rose bowl in'05 and the Ntl Chp in "06.


First off, Vince is a Junior, not a senior.

Secondly, Vince sat quite a bit this year in the 4th Quarter because they were blowing people out so bad.

Third, Carr played for Fresno State....pffft....yea, those WAC defenses are known to be tough. :rolleyes:

Double Barrel
01-24-2006, 12:18 PM
I'm in the win-win-win category, too.

No matter what we do, it'll be an upgrade over the 2005 Texans. :texflag:

Jack Bauer
01-24-2006, 12:24 PM
His improvement over the last three years, should point to his coachability, his work ethic, and his inner burn for greatness.

To be fair, his improvement did not come over three years. It came this year and it came as a result of changing the offense to fit Vince. Despite what Vince says, the UT offense is NOT Indy Colts-Lite.

BTW, I am in the W3 crowd!

HoustonFrog
01-24-2006, 12:31 PM
I'm in W-W-W but as far as VY. His improvement came as a result of spending the summer with McNair and working on his passing skills daily. He then started his own off season workouts with his teammates and told them if they wanted to win it all, they should show up. They did. In my book that is showing dedication and the ability to lead. Does that make him the best of the three options?No clue, just reporting the facts of his last year improvement.

killeentexan
01-24-2006, 12:32 PM
This is how I see it

1- YAY I WON A NEW PORSCHE!
2- YAY I WON A NEW FERRARI!
3- YAY I WON A FREE OIL-CHANGE & TIRE ROTATION!


1- YAY I WON A NEW PORSCHE THAT I NEED TO SPEND A YEAR OR 2 LEARNING TO DRIVE.

2- YAY I WON A NEW FERRARI THAT WILL NEVER BE MY "EVERYDAY CAR"

3- YAY I WON A FREE OIL-CHANGE & TIRE ROTATION FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS THAT WILL ENABLE MY CAR TO RUN FLAWLESSLY AND WILL DRIVE ME TO THE PROMISED LAND (PLAYOFFS & SUPER BOWL)!

... fixorated it for you!

TexHorns
01-24-2006, 12:38 PM
Trading Down=win, because of holes in our team, lack of depth and with players like Hawk and D'Brick and some of the tightends in the draft plus maybe a first next year, it just cant be a loss.

Bush=win, because of his ability to play as a dual running/receiving threat. The Texans could let him split time with Armstrong at slot and relieve DD at rback. This would take some pressure off AJ, cause matchup problems and give the Texans a playmaker. IMO no team is afraid of Bradford and Gaffney, they need to go. Let AJ, Mathis, Bush and Armstrong take the load. The down side of drafting bush is that we might not get one or two of the TE, LT, LB or DB positions we need.

Vince Young=loss. First I would like to say that I am a fan of Texas and VY, but when I look at the Texans' roster needs I cant logically find a good reason for taking Vince. The Texans just dont need a QB and drafting him would only delay the Texans in establishing an overall competitive team. MO is based on rewards vs. cost. By cost I mean filling position needs. Although watching Vince in a Texans uniform would be very entertaining, I am a fan of all the aspects of a game. I would not want to watch a struggling defense and a impotent passing game every week. I am not trying to say Vince cant pass, but that the Texans need a defense that can cover/tackle, an oline that can protect, WRs that can catch and a TE that can do both.

So with all that said I give-

Trading Down-best option

Reggie Bush-a close second

Vince Young-maybe in some parallel universe

Glacier
01-24-2006, 12:45 PM
Vince Young-maybe in some parallel universe

Just hope that parallel universe isn't in the NFC East or AFC South. :brickwall

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 12:49 PM
To be fair, his improvement did not come over three years. It came this year and it came as a result of changing the offense to fit Vince. Despite what Vince says, the UT offense is NOT Indy Colts-Lite.

BTW, I am in the W3 crowd!

Either way...... you're not telling me you'd be happy if David Carr could've convinced Dom to let him play?? to changet he offense to fit him??

Jack Bauer
01-24-2006, 12:58 PM
Either way...... you're not telling me you'd be happy if David Carr could've convinced Dom to let him play?? to changet he offense to fit him??

Vince, despite what is reported on this board, is not capable of talking everyone into his way of thinking. He was able to convince Brown because he is kind of a pushover (lucky for Vince).

Texans_Chick
01-24-2006, 02:04 PM
I'll give you that VY is an amazing athelete. But in College his stats were not even better than David Carrs. (Let alone is he a "once in a life time talent" that others have claimed him to be.)

David Carr's Senior Year Stats
64.5% completions
42 Touchdowns
9 Interceptions
4308 yards passing
531 yards rushing

Vince Young Senior Year Stats
65.2 %
26 Touchdowns
10 Interceptions
3036 yards passing
1050 yards rushing

Yo, where did you get the stats on Carr's rushing???? This is what I found:

David Carr's 2001 stats (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/stats/2001/players/13154/index.html)

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6 5 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Are these stats right??? You never know with the internets sometimes.:confused:

Agree with you that Carr had some fat stats in college. Also, it is unfair to write him off as just playing in a bad conference because he did play well outta of conference as well.

And IIRC, it is also uncool to say he is just a Tedford guy because I believe he only worked with Tedford his first year.

All that being said, VY's upside potential is really hard to ignore, stats plus just looking at the way he plays and competes.

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 02:17 PM
Vince, despite what is reported on this board, is not capable of talking everyone into his way of thinking. He was able to convince Brown because he is kind of a pushover (lucky for Vince).


Let me repeat the question for you slower.

would you be happy if David Carr could've convinced Dom to let him play?? to changet he offense to fit him??

Has nothing to do with Vince Young. The statement referncing Vince Young was to point to one of his accomplishments that exemplifies his ability to work with others.

David's inability to convince his coach that David could save Dom's job is something else to look at. 6 games into the season, we knew Dom was going to be fired. How hard would it be for David to say, coach, if you allow us to do this, or that, we can win you some games, and save your job. Then he can come out and play like he did the first half of the St Louis game(which every one says is an example of what David could do when the reigns are relaxed. Then they turn right around, and say our offensive line isn't capable of giving David time to make sound decisions.). Then we Wouldn't have come off a 2-14 season, we wouldn't have the 1st pick in the Draft, and we wouldn't be talking about replacing David Carr. There are only two reasons why this didn't happen. David couldn't(in which case, we need to let him go) or David wouldn't(in which case, we need to let him go)

Jack Bauer
01-24-2006, 03:48 PM
Let me repeat the question for you slower.

would you be happy if David Carr could've convinced Dom to let him play?? to changet he offense to fit him??

Has nothing to do with Vince Young. The statement referncing Vince Young was to point to one of his accomplishments that exemplifies his ability to work with others.

David's inability to convince his coach that David could save Dom's job is something else to look at. 6 games into the season, we knew Dom was going to be fired. How hard would it be for David to say, coach, if you allow us to do this, or that, we can win you some games, and save your job. Then he can come out and play like he did the first half of the St Louis game(which every one says is an example of what David could do when the reigns are relaxed. Then they turn right around, and say our offensive line isn't capable of giving David time to make sound decisions.). Then we Wouldn't have come off a 2-14 season, we wouldn't have the 1st pick in the Draft, and we wouldn't be talking about replacing David Carr. There are only two reasons why this didn't happen. David couldn't(in which case, we need to let him go) or David wouldn't(in which case, we need to let him go)


There is no need to insult fellow posters. I understood your point which is why I answered the question the way I did. The post I responded to included you espousing your love for the leader that is Vince and how he "sat down and spoke with Brown" like a man. Convincing Dom Capers to change his offense is NOT the same as Vince convincing Mack "softy" Brown to do the same thing.

Sure I wish DC could've convinced Capers to run a less conservative offense. But I also know this is more of a sandlot type of situation that would have happened in youth football.

TEXANRED
01-24-2006, 04:45 PM
My eyes are bleeding.

Is the draft over yet?

Isnt there a longhorn message board somewhere?