PDA

View Full Version : This Is What I don't Understand About Houston Fans.....


Glacier
01-23-2006, 01:58 PM
Domanick Davis attempts 230 yards976 average 4.2 long 44 TDs 2
Jonathan Wells attempts 90 yards 325 average 3.6 long 14 TDs4


That was in '05 when DD was hurt. If you go back to '04


Player No Yds Avg Long TD
Domanick Davis 302 1188 3.9 44 13
Jonathan Wells 82 299 3.6 14 3


How is it, if the Offensive line is SO horrible, you have had this kind of rushing production, yet your QB gets his *** beaten every game?

Is Carr coachable or is he another Drew Bledsoe who wants to pat the ball all day until he sees a throw he likes? Is he just slow to make reads and find receivers?

Why all the hype to take Reggie Bush when the production at RB is way better than the production at QB?

Fine, you don't want VY, then why not make a case for taking Wheinhart?

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 02:03 PM
4ypc isn't really that great.... I think it's great considering the offensive line isn't that great. But people will remind you that there is a difference between run blocking, and pass blocking, which, they have a point. But I think DD getting hurt, is a result of that poor runblocking. I point to Ricky Williams in NewOrleans as my defense.

But... these same guys would also have you believe there is a difference in pass protection, also when David Carr is calling the shots (first half of the St Louis game, and any game David did well last year) and When Caper's/Pendry/Palmer/Donavan McNabb's Mother is calling the shots(the second half of the St Louis Game, and every game David suffered in).

Hookem Horns
01-23-2006, 02:04 PM
Domanick Davis attempts 230 yards976 average 4.2 long 44 TDs 2
Jonathan Wells attempts 90 yards 325 average 3.6 long 14 TDs4


That was in '05 when DD was hurt. If you go back to '04


Player No Yds Avg Long TD
Domanick Davis 302 1188 3.9 44 13
Jonathan Wells 82 299 3.6 14 3


How is it, if the Offensive line is SO horrible, you have had this kind of rushing production, yet your QB gets his *** beaten every game?

Is Carr coachable or is he another Drew Bledsoe who wants to pat the ball all day until he sees a throw he likes? Is he just slow to make reads and find receivers?

Why all the hype to take Reggie Bush when the production at RB is way better than the production at QB?

Fine, you don't want VY, then why not make a case for taking Wheinhart?

Good points and I agree with most of them. However, pass protection and run blocking are two different things.

I do think Carr is slow to make reads, he always looks like he is locked onto one guy most of the time. However some will say that is due to poor pass protection.

chuckm
01-23-2006, 02:05 PM
However some will say that is due to poor pass protection.

or that he's "shellshocked"

Glacier
01-23-2006, 02:06 PM
4ypc isn't really that great.... I think it's great considering the offensive line isn't that great. But people will remind you that there is a difference between run blocking, and pass blocking, which, they have a point. But I think DD getting hurt, is a result of that poor runblocking. I point to Ricky Williams in NewOrleans as my defense.

But... these same guys would also have you believe there is a difference in pass protection, also when David Carr is calling the shots (first half of the St Louis game, and any game David did well last year) and When Caper's/Pendry/Palmer/Donavan McNabb's Mother is calling the shots(the second half of the St Louis Game, and every game David suffered in).


4 yards per carry is pretty freaking good dude.

If all you did was run on 1, 2, 3rd down averaging 4 yards a carry, your offense never leaves the field and would score every time.

I don't buy it. I understand there is a difference between run and pass blocking; however, these guys have been blocking forever. Something had to be breaking down in pass blocking. Either someone wasn't making the right blocking calls, David Carr stinks at getting rid of the ball quick or, people do not fear David Carr will burn them if they blitz him every down.

There has to be an explaination for why Dominack Davis can be productive behind that line and D Carr can't.

Hookem Horns
01-23-2006, 02:06 PM
or that he's "shellshocked"

LOL, shellshocked due to poor pass protection in the past. :)

TEXANS84
01-23-2006, 02:11 PM
There has to be an explaination for why Dominack Davis can be productive behind that line and D Carr can't.
Like Hookem stated, run blocking and pass blocking are two totally different things.
Its not that hard to figure out.

Glacier
01-23-2006, 02:13 PM
Like Hookem stated, run blocking and pass blocking are two totally different things.
Its not that hard to figure out.


I think that is an over simplified explaination. Look, I understand that David Carr has been "THE GUY" people root for in Houston. I understand he was the first over all pick in the draft. I understand fan loyalty and all that stuff. I really do, but at which point do you finally say, "it smells like a skunk, it looks like a skunk. It must be a skunk?"

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 02:17 PM
But... these same guys would also have you believe there is a difference in pass protection, also when David Carr is calling the shots (first half of the St Louis game, and any game David did well last year) and When Caper's/Pendry/Palmer/Donavan McNabb's Mother is calling the shots(the second half of the St Louis Game, and every game David suffered in).


Don't make the mistake thinking I'm defending Carr.

Kaiser Toro
01-23-2006, 02:19 PM
It really is pretty easy. Texans fans want wins first and secondly be entertained. When you do not win and it is not entertaing to watch in a win or loss you start looking at value with a microscope or start reaching for the next flavor. Some fans will take a granular look and realize we have painful contracts or guys that did not live up to the hype and we will have to grow organically through the draft and a install a better coaching staff to get the most out of we have. And there are others that want to be wowed by a playmaker with the hope that the player will make an exponential difference.

I see no fault in either fan as the team, not the franchise, has not given us a lot to feel good about since the Cowboys game.

TheOgre
01-23-2006, 02:20 PM
I think that is an over simplified explaination. Look, I understand that David Carr has been "THE GUY" people root for in Houston. I understand he was the first over all pick in the draft. I understand fan loyalty and all that stuff. I really do, but at which point do you finally say, "it smells like a skunk, it looks like a skunk. It must be a skunk?"

The GM has specifically targeted run blocking linemen in FA. The Texans as a group have a bunch of above average run-blockers and below average pass-blockers. You have 4-5 below-average pass-blockers and a half back that cannot pick up a blitz to save his life, and you have a QB on his **** a lot.

TEXANS84
01-23-2006, 02:20 PM
Look, I understand that David Carr has been "THE GUY" people root for in Houston.

If you would read back a few more months besides your joining date of January, you would recognize that Carr no longer is "the guy" people root for. Sure, he's going to get all of the attention because he is our starting quarterback, but with a 2-14 season...players need to be re-evaluated.

From another thread:


Hell Send DD to Dallas. We will put him to good use.

Ahh, we've found a cowboys fan...eh?

Glacier
01-23-2006, 02:22 PM
Ahh, we've found a cowboys fan...eh?

I'm a Cowboys fan and have never denied it. I was also a Houston Oilers fan before they up and left Texas. (hard not to love guys like Warren Moon and before him Earl Campbell). I'd LIKE to be a Texan's fan but god....its painful to watch them play.

Incidentally, as I've said before, I am a "TEXAS" football fan. I like to see all Texas teams do well.

I'm excited about Kubiak coming to Texas. I wanted him in Dallas back when Jerry interviewed him. I think he will show people that Houston isn't as bad, talent wise, as everyone believes.

HoustonFrog
01-23-2006, 03:05 PM
Incidentally, as I've said before, I am a "TEXAS" football fan. I like to see all Texas teams do well.

I grew up in Ft. Worth and have been a Cowboy fan all my life. I moved here in 1993 and I really want the Texans to do well. I like what you had to say here. I do see the rivalry but when I grew up in FW, my fav teams were the Cowboys, Rangers and Mavs but I always loved the Oilers and Astros and Rockets. I like most Texas teams in the pros. Not ripping Houston people because I am one and love it now but I never hear people in the DFW are talk about Houston much but the people here sure do talk about hatred for Dallas.

Hookem Horns
01-23-2006, 03:52 PM
I grew up in Ft. Worth and have been a Cowboy fan all my life. I moved here in 1993 and I really want the Texans to do well. I like what you had to say here. I do see the rivalry but when I grew up in FW, my fav teams were the Cowboys, Rangers and Mavs but I always loved the Oilers and Astros and Rockets. I like most Texas teams in the pros. Not ripping Houston people because I am one and love it now but I never hear people in the DFW are talk about Houston much but the people here sure do talk about hatred for Dallas.

I lived in Dallas also. Dallas people do have a hatred for Houston however it isn't directed at the Houston sports teams like it is in Houston. Normally you hear them saying Houston is a dump, it is polluted, over populated, the traffic sucks, etc, etc. When Houstonians dump on Dallas it is normally directed at the Cowboys.

The difference is, there aren't many Houston fans in Dallas. Most Dallas fans will root for Houston teams when they aren't playing each other. However, there are tons of Cowboys fans in Houston, and most of them have large mouths and bring the hate on themselves. One thing that surprised me in Dallas is the Cowboys fans there are a little different, most don't have diarrea of the mouth. They are actually pretty tolerable in Dallas unlike the ones in Houston and elsewhere.

Double Barrel
01-23-2006, 04:01 PM
However, there are tons of Cowboys fans in Houston, and most of them have large mouths and bring the hate on themselves. One thing that surprised me in Dallas is the Cowboys fans there are a little different, most don't have diarrea of the mouth. They are actually pretty tolerable in Dallas unlike the ones in Houston and elsewhere.

This has been my experience, as well (living in Houston). Cowboys fans are few and far between around here when they are experiencing a losing season. But once they start winning, so many folks make the claim of being a Cowboys fan since they were little.

At which point I trap them in my circular logic maze, as follows:

DB: "So, you've lived in Dallas?"

CF: "No, Houston my whole life. But when I was little my parents were Cowboys fans."

DB: "So you come from a long line of bandwaggoners, 'eh? It runs in the family."

CF: "ummmmmm...."

:D I'm so mean....heh-heh-heh - j/k!! to all

Glacier
01-23-2006, 04:12 PM
This has been my experience, as well (living in Houston). Cowboys fans are few and far between around here when they are experiencing a losing season. But once they start winning, so many folks make the claim of being a Cowboys fan since they were little.

At which point I trap them in my circular logic maze, as follows:

DB: "So, you've lived in Dallas?"

CF: "No, Houston my whole life. But when I was little my parents were Cowboys fans."

DB: "So you come from a long line of bandwaggoners, 'eh? It runs in the family."

CF: "ummmmmm...."

:D I'm so mean....heh-heh-heh - j/k!! to all

I actually have it double bad. My mother's side of the family is in the Corpus, Houston area and are the typical Houstonian type Cowboy's haters.

My dads side of the family is mostly in the Metroplex now, which has the typical, "root for both Dallas and Houston" types.

Me personally, I like the Rockets and the Astros. The jury is out on the Texans. I want to see them win before I go buy a Texan's Jersey. (I'd buy a #10 Jersey, regardless, though. SUE ME! \m/ hook'em)

Texan Asylum
01-23-2006, 04:15 PM
Most all your Dallas fans are manufactured from the America's Team hype from a number of years back. Same can be said about the Atlanta Braves fanbase. I'm sure there are some true born and raised Cowboy fans out there but I think they choose to remain quiet so as to not be lumped in with the rest of the other fabricated fans. I love conspiracy theories.:)

chall8
01-23-2006, 04:16 PM
Completely agree. Everyone up here makes it out that it has to be EITHER Young OR Bush. If you decide you want to stick with Carr and not get Young, why does that mean you have to get Bush?

Our RB production is just fine. Morency was looking good as well. And Kubiak has a history of making 3rd and 4th round RB's great.

Burning a #1 pick on a running back just doesn't make sense to me.

Glacier
01-23-2006, 04:18 PM
Most all your Dallas fans are manufactured from the America's Team hype from a number of years back. Same can be said about the Atlanta Braves fanbase. I'm sure there are some true born and raised Cowboy fans out there but I think they choose to remain quiet so as to not be lumped in with the rest of the other fabricated fans. I love conspiracy theories.:)



pffft as a child, I saw my mom cry when the Cowboys lost to the Steelers and again when Staubach retired. This despite all my uncles being Cowboys haters/Oilers fans....Yea, that sort of stuff leaves an impression on a kiddo.

Battle Red Flash
01-23-2006, 04:18 PM
How is it, if the Offensive line is SO horrible, you have had this kind of rushing production, yet your QB gets his *** beaten every game?


- Because the current line can run block, but they suck at pass blocking.

bigTEXan8
01-23-2006, 04:20 PM
This topic has only showed up a few times on this board.

There is a difference between pass-blocking and and run-blocking. Carr-haters will try and tell you though that their isn't. I've heard some people people say that the Texans o-line is an above-average run team and a below average pass team, which was a very acurrate statement. The Texans have always done a relatively good job at running the ball, but they are **** when it comes to pass-protection. I'm just suprised the mods haven't combined this thread with the 8 others that are on this board.

HoustonFrog
01-23-2006, 04:32 PM
Most all your Dallas fans are manufactured from the America's Team hype from a number of years back. Same can be said about the Atlanta Braves fanbase. I'm sure there are some true born and raised Cowboy fans out there but I think they choose to remain quiet so as to not be lumped in with the rest of the other fabricated fans. I love conspiracy theories.:)

Wrong with this guy!!I grew up in the 70s in Ft. Worth. I started watching football as a Cowboys fan and had all my card with Charlie Watters, Preston Pearson, Stauback, Doug Cosbie, Jay Saldi, etc. I have never waivered. Threw my TV tray during the catch and have dealt with the bad seasons. The only thing that has changed over the years is that I have mellowed. Instead of every loss ruining a weekend where I would meet a Playmate, win the lottery and drink beer with friends, I just realize that they are going through a spell and that the league is up and down. There are alot more REAL Cowboy fans than you think. I love Houston and have been ragged on about my allegiances but I am a fan of the Texans also. And not all Cowboy fans are obnoxious. To tell you the truth, I've heard more whining about anything Dallas here on 610. When you dedicate songs like Eggan and Henson commercials, etc to the Cowboys "s%cking" then it makes me smile. I've never heard more crying than during that Rockets/Mavs series last year.

Glacier
01-23-2006, 04:39 PM
Wrong with this guy!!I grew up in the 70s in Ft. Worth. I started watching football as a Cowboys fan and had all my card with Charlie Watters, Preston Pearson, Stauback, Doug Cosbie, Jay Saldi, etc. I have never waivered. Threw my TV tray during the catch and have dealt with the bad seasons. The only thing that has changed over the years is that I have mellowed. Instead of every loss ruining a weekend where I would meet a Playmate, win the lottery and drink beer with friends, I just realize that they are going through a spell and that the league is up and down. There are alot more REAL Cowboy fans than you think. I love Houston and have been ragged on about my allegiances but I am a fan of the Texans also. And not all Cowboy fans are obnoxious. To tell you the truth, I've heard more whining about anything Dallas here on 610. When you dedicate songs like Eggan and Henson commercials, etc to the Cowboys "s%cking" then it makes me smile. I've never heard more crying than during that Rockets/Mavs series last year.

Yea clearly anyone born in Texas not a Cowboys fan is clearly either 1. A Communist or 2. A part of a Sleeper Cell in Al Queda. :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot:

\m/

In any event, this thread has been derailed in a big way.

HoustonFrog
01-23-2006, 04:42 PM
Yea clearly anyone born in Texas not a Cowboys fan is clearly either 1. A Communist or 2. A part of a Sleeper Cell in Al Queda. :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot:

\m/

In any event, this thread has been derailed in a big way.

:ok: Never said that either...lol. Just playing nice and supporting my teams.

Texan Asylum
01-23-2006, 04:43 PM
You are obviously a True Cowboy fan, but to be totally honest don't you have to admit that the Cowboy fans I was eluding to are more fickle when it comes to the terms in which they'll show their support of their team. I know of one such fan that'll tell me my team sucks in one breath and couldn't even tell me how his Cowboy team is doing in the next. By the way his favorite baseball team is...you quessed it right, Braves.

Glacier
01-23-2006, 04:45 PM
:ok: Never said that either...lol. Just playing nice and supporting my teams.


I know I know. :)


I'm being facetious and seeing how many more "hate points" i can get on this board.

Anyone sick of all the speculation already? I want a coaching staff in place yesterday and the draft tomorrow already.

It is nice having more than one Pro football team to be interested in here lately.

HoustonFrog
01-23-2006, 04:48 PM
You are obviously a True Cowboy fan, but to be totally honest don't you have to admit that the Cowboy fans I was eluding to are more fickle when it comes to the terms in which they'll show their support of their team. I know of one such fan that'll tell me my team sucks in one breath and couldn't even tell me how his Cowboy team is doing in the next. By the way his favorite baseball team is...you quessed it right, Braves.

Yup, I know some guys who pretty much have done the same thing I am seeing here. Fire Landry and I'm gone, Hire Switzer and I'm gone, Parcells is overrated. There is a new cry with some of them yearly. I just try and prove they aren't all like that.

Texan Asylum
01-23-2006, 04:53 PM
I quess I base my opinion of a true Cowboys fan on my poor ol' brother-in-law. First, he marries my sister and second he's a Cowboys fan.:) He's a Die-hard, True-blue fan of both no matter what happens.:)

Glacier
01-23-2006, 04:54 PM
Yup, I know some guys who pretty much have done the same thing I am seeing here. Fire Landry and I'm gone, Hire Switzer and I'm gone, Parcells is overrated. There is a new cry with some of them yearly. I just try and prove they aren't all like that.

Parcells is awesome....I just hate his offensive philosophy.

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 04:57 PM
Not ripping Houston people because I am one and love it now but I never hear people in the DFW are talk about Houston much but the people here sure do talk about hatred for Dallas.


I think it's because Dallas is America's team, and we're the butt of America's Jokes.....



but times are a changing....

Texan Asylum
01-23-2006, 04:57 PM
There's lots of people associated with the Cowboys that I like and have liked, but too bad they all had one horrible thing in common...Cowboys.:)

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 05:17 PM
By the way his favorite baseball team is...you quessed it right, Braves.


Wow, I haven't seen a Braves fan since I left South Carolina.

Glacier
01-23-2006, 05:18 PM
I think it's because Dallas is America's team, and we're the butt of America's Jokes.....



but times are a changing....

THIS.....this is why I come to these boards.

Hearing stuff like, "Today, The Texans snatched defeat from the maw of Victory." on national TV pisses me off, even if I am NOT a hardcore Texan's fan. I don't want to hear stuff like that bout Texas Football Teams.

Times are changing...Kubiak 4 the win. It is a VERY good time to be interested in The Texans, no matter what happens with that #1 pick.

TexanBacker93
01-23-2006, 08:46 PM
4 yards a carry is considered pretty average. The best runners should get 4.50-5 each carry. The problem with Wells and Davis is they are Woody Hayes, 3 yards and a cloud of dust, runners. It would be nice to see someone that can outrun a DL.

Snapple
01-23-2006, 09:23 PM
How is David Carr totally to blame when he gets 0.0001 seconds to throw before he's sacked? Sure, maybe Carr isn't perfect. Maybe he should even be replaced. But the O-line is DEFINITELY at fault, here. Don't kid yourself into thinking it's not. If you'd watched even one game, you'd probably notice that on most snaps, the pocket breaks down almost instantly around Carr. No QB in the league could survive that. It's pathetic.

LCOOL
01-23-2006, 09:30 PM
There's lots of people associated with the Cowboys that I like and have liked, but too bad they all had one horrible thing in common...Cowboys.:)
I like the Cowboys as well as the texans, so what if the cowboys were 9-7 they still didn't make the playoffs like the texans, and both ol stink, but the cowboys ol was banged up. Just imagine if Carr had the OL that Aikman had? This season will tell the tale on how the texans can turn things around.

Farough
01-24-2006, 07:40 AM
4 yards per carry is pretty freaking good dude.

If all you did was run on 1, 2, 3rd down averaging 4 yards a carry, your offense never leaves the field and would score every time.

I don't buy it. I understand there is a difference between run and pass blocking; however, these guys have been blocking forever. Something had to be breaking down in pass blocking. Either someone wasn't making the right blocking calls, David Carr stinks at getting rid of the ball quick or, people do not fear David Carr will burn them if they blitz him every down.

There has to be an explaination for why Dominack Davis can be productive behind that line and D Carr can't.

You wouldnt neccessarily consistently get first downs. DD could break off a 20 yard run, average 20 ypc after the first carry. Second run get stuffed at the line. 10ypc average. Get stuffed at the line again. And again. That would give you a 5 ypc average and yet youve only picked up one first down

infantrycak
01-24-2006, 08:34 AM
You wouldnt neccessarily consistently get first downs. DD could break off a 20 yard run, average 20 ypc after the first carry. Second run get stuffed at the line. 10ypc average. Get stuffed at the line again. And again. That would give you a 5 ypc average and yet youve only picked up one first down

You just described Barry Sanders--who many think is the best RB of all time.

A Texan
01-24-2006, 08:49 AM
One thing that makes the run production even more remarkable is that opponents haven't had to focus much on the passing game which has been terrible. Most of the time this year they didn't throw the long ball at all.

edo783
01-24-2006, 09:03 AM
Run blocking is a LOT easier to do than pass blocking. Pass requires everyone to operate on the same page and the protection package that's called by the center in most cases, has to be the right one.

Hervoyel
01-24-2006, 09:21 AM
You know what I don't understand about Houston fans Glacier? I don't understand how come many of them don't understand the simple difference between pass protection and run blocking. That's the real mystery here. I don't understand why they can't seem to grasp that the new offense under Kubiak and whoever he chooses for the OC position will be different than our old offense under Capers and Palmer/Pendry. I don't see why they want to throw away Carr before they even see if it was him or what the Texans were asking him to do.

I personally see an enormous upgrade by going from Domanick Davis to Reggie Bush but like you I say "Hey, you don't like Reggie Bush then how about we trade down and pick up some extra draft picks". Ok, that's not what you said about Vince Young but it's what I say about Reggie Bush. I'm not set on a RB. I think he's worthy of the #1 overall pick but I'm not married the choice. If we don't take him then I say trade down.

Now you want a QB apparently but we've got one who's played four years on an expansion team. It's too soon to go closing the book on David Carr. Only a fool would look at this entire picture, taking into account the player, the system, the coaches, and the talent level around him during this four year span and conclude that we need a QB. Making this move and replacing our QB now is how you become the Cleveland Browns. Firing Dom after 2003 would have been an example of how you become the Cleveland Browns. During the darkest moments of this past season I said that I thought we had become the Cleveland Browns but that just wasn't true. Four years is enough time to see what a coaching staff can do. If you conclude that they're not getting it done then you can't indict players who played in that same flawed system.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
01-24-2006, 02:38 PM
Hey everyone. I'm new to the board here, and I'm hoping for a better season come next year. After reading some of the posts in this thread, I have to say that I was once a Dallas fan myself along with my Dad. But Jerry was too much of a knucklehead every year, especially when he put Campo in charge of coaching.
So, from the time I found out Houston was getting a team, I decided to support the Texans 100 percent from their inception on, instead of rooting for my Dad's favorite team. I figured I would rather say that I was with a team from their beginning, through all their ups and downs, instead of staying with a sinking ship. (Plus, I'm only an hour from Houston now with my job, so I am definitely for sticking with my "home team.") So I've been rooting for them since the first preseason game.
With Kubiak at the helm, I look to see drastic changes within the next two years. As much as I respected Capers as a person, it was easy to see that changes needed to be made, and Kubiak is certainly the first step in the right direction. Once we become more offense-minded, I think we'll be a force to be reckoned with on Sundays.
It's great to be here!:redtowel:

Double Barrel
01-24-2006, 02:46 PM
Welcome to the Texans funny pages, OrangeCountyTexansFan. Glad you've dedicated your fanship to our beloved team. :thumbup

I agree with you about Kubiak. We've got a bright future ahead of us, and don't let anyone steal your joy or tell you any different. :howdy:

GoneTexan
01-24-2006, 02:48 PM
Hey everyone. I'm new to the board here...
It's great to be here!:redtowel:

Welcome aboard OC TexFan!:redtowel:
You have the same story as myself... except I now live in San Diego!

Don't worry to much about the #1 Pick debates.... all in all this is great board.

We have a lot of good thing to look forward to...:superman:

Let's go TEXANS!:ok:

TheOgre
01-24-2006, 02:58 PM
You just described Barry Sanders--who many think is the best RB of all time.

Sanders had more elusiveness, quickness and slightly more speed than DD (although both can get caught from behind). DD might have similar characteristics, but he doesn't have the big play capabilities of Sanders (I'm sure if you looked up the % of 20+, 40+, and 60+ yard plays per attempt by each, and the difference would be drastic).

IMO Sanders is a top 3, if not the best, RB of all time.

thunderkyss
01-24-2006, 03:02 PM
You know what I don't understand about Houston fans Glacier? I don't understand how come many of them don't understand the simple difference between pass protection and run blocking. That's the real mystery here. I don't understand why they can't seem to grasp that the new offense under Kubiak and whoever he chooses for the OC position will be different than our old offense under Capers and Palmer/Pendry. I don't see why they want to throw away Carr before they even see if it was him or what the Texans were asking him to do.

I personally see an enormous upgrade by going from Domanick Davis to Reggie Bush but like you I say "Hey, you don't like Reggie Bush then how about we trade down and pick up some extra draft picks". Ok, that's not what you said about Vince Young but it's what I say about Reggie Bush. I'm not set on a RB. I think he's worthy of the #1 overall pick but I'm not married the choice. If we don't take him then I say trade down.

Now you want a QB apparently but we've got one who's played four years on an expansion team. It's too soon to go closing the book on David Carr. Only a fool would look at this entire picture, taking into account the player, the system, the coaches, and the talent level around him during this four year span and conclude that we need a QB. Making this move and replacing our QB now is how you become the Cleveland Browns. Firing Dom after 2003 would have been an example of how you become the Cleveland Browns. During the darkest moments of this past season I said that I thought we had become the Cleveland Browns but that just wasn't true. Four years is enough time to see what a coaching staff can do. If you conclude that they're not getting it done then you can't indict players who played in that same flawed system.

Overall, I think this was a fairly good post, but I'd like to tack on mi dos pesos.

First, If we trade down, fine. If we draft Vince, fine. I only think it is a loss, if we Draft Regie Bush, because I think we'll be spin our wheels. I'm under the impression we are interested in Kubiak because of his run blocking system in Denver. His ability to make anybody a 1600yard back. I also think we have the backs to do that. No reason for a RB #1 overall. So I really think McNair is just pumping the value of the pick, with that in mind. I honestly don't see how Reggie Bush is a fit on this team. Then, if this run blocking is easier than pass blocking.... Kubiak's teams are great at RunBlocking.... then we'll have to teach car how to work behind a line that can't pass block as well as they run block..... hence, Vince Young is a good fit. If David would have gotten himself hurt sometime in the last two years, I'd be with you, we owe him another shot. But he hasn't, we've seen him... DD on the other hand, I think it is perfectly normal,and we should've expected DD to be hurt with the carries he gets, behind the line he has, and trying to take it between the tackles. He deserves one more year more than anyone else on this team with the new coach.

The Browns started with a rookie QB, how did that turn out?? How long did it take you to figure out he wasn't going to make it?? 4 years?? Wow... really??
anyway.

Kubiaks going to improve our run game. We are going to be a much better team regardless who we draft... whether Carr is here or not... I don't think Reggie adds anything to this team, that we don't already have. You want to stop the double teams on Andre?? teach Gaffney how to catch...... consistently provide a whole for DD to run to. Open up passing lanes for Carr.

If you're going to be using the pick, take the BPA who gives you something we don't have..... a playmaker that makes plays with his arm outside of the pocket... an option, in Case Carr gets hurt..... an option in Case Carr ain't the one... a reason to come back in 2007, if all heck breaks loose.

TheOgre
01-24-2006, 03:19 PM
I rooted for the Cowboys until one fateful day when I was 10. The Oilers and Cowboys were playing, and we had brought 4 families together for the Thanksgiving. The rest of my family was indifferent towards the game, but the other three families were wholeheartedly rooting for the Cowboys. Both were playoff caliber teams, yet the locals were rooting for the "other guys".

This really baffled me, and led me to start hating them. I still view anyone from Houston that roots for Dallas first and foremost as the quintessential bandwagon loser (root for the better team, not your own team). They are the Benedict Arnold of fans as far as I am concerned.

Glacier
01-24-2006, 03:55 PM
I rooted for the Cowboys until one fateful day when I was 10. The Oilers and Cowboys were playing, and we had brought 4 families together for the Thanksgiving. The rest of my family was indifferent towards the game, but the other three families were wholeheartedly rooting for the Cowboys. Both were playoff caliber teams, yet the locals were rooting for the "other guys".

This really baffled me, and led me to start hating them. I still view anyone from Houston that roots for Dallas first and foremost as the quintessential bandwagon loser (root for the better team, not your own team). They are the Benedict Arnold of fans as far as I am concerned.

bah, Dallas hasn't always been the better team.

FirstTexansFan
01-24-2006, 04:06 PM
bah, Dallas hasn't always been the better team.

And you're here why? Sounds like a Troll to me! :)

Glacier
01-24-2006, 04:10 PM
And you're here why? Sounds like a Troll to me! :)


typical houston haters. hey, its possible to root for more than one team.

Bobo
01-24-2006, 04:17 PM
How is it, if the Offensive line is SO horrible, you have had this kind of rushing production, yet your QB gets his *** beaten every game?


That's easy. Run blocking and pass blocking are two separate things. It is possible to do one thing well and another thing poorly.

infantrycak
01-24-2006, 04:45 PM
Sanders had more elusiveness, quickness and slightly more speed than DD (although both can get caught from behind). DD might have similar characteristics, but he doesn't have the big play capabilities of Sanders (I'm sure if you looked up the % of 20+, 40+, and 60+ yard plays per attempt by each, and the difference would be drastic).

IMO Sanders is a top 3, if not the best, RB of all time.

Look back at the post I was responding to and you will see while it listed DD in the example, he was describing results which were much more characteristic of Sanders. DD is a knock out 2-6 yds everytime guy. The hypo was break off a long one and then get stuffed 3 times--that is more akin to Sanders and was what I was responding to. I wasn't comparing DD to Sanders.

FirstTexansFan
01-24-2006, 04:55 PM
typical houston haters. hey, its possible to root for more than one team.

Typical bandwagon fan, when the one's not doing well, you jump to the other, and deny you were ever a fan of the first. I bet if we examined your sporting gear we'd find 32 team colors. Easy to be a fan of a winning team then HUH? ROFL!

TexHorns
01-24-2006, 05:39 PM
I think that is an over simplified explaination. Look, I understand that David Carr has been "THE GUY" people root for in Houston. I understand he was the first over all pick in the draft. I understand fan loyalty and all that stuff. I really do, but at which point do you finally say, "it smells like a skunk, it looks like a skunk. It must be a skunk?"

The two main things on offense that "looked like a skunk" were the oline and wrs dropping balls. You can say the run blocking was good and Carr smells like a skunk but it doesnt make it true. If you watch the games, DD was getting most of those yards on his own, breaking tackles and making the first guy miss. I wouldnt give the online credit for one inch of DD's yards. As far as Carr goes you cant make a clear judgement without giving him at least good protection. IMO not even the Pepsi machine wearing a Vince Young jersey could play behind the Texans oline.

barzilla
01-24-2006, 08:52 PM
What we have are differences in draft philosophy. Hopefully we all can acknowledge that RB AND QB are not are biggest needs in this draft. It's a logical circle to talk about DD and run blocking. If the run blocking is good enough then Davis and Wells are a good combo. If the run blocking isn't good then Davis and Wells are a very good combo. Either way, we don't NEED a running back.

Similarly, if the pass blocking was terrible then David Carr did admirably. If the pass blocking was average and the coaching was bad then Carr did okay. This brings the academic question:

When you have the first selection do you manuever for need or take the best available player regardless of position?

If you buy into the first philosophy then you trade down. If you buy into the second then the players on the current roster aren't nearly as important as your grade of the potential player itself. So, to say Davis is a good running back isn't as much of an issue as how superior Bush is. This is the same as the question between Carr/Young.

Teams have won Superbowls with QBs worse than Carr. Teams have won Superbowls with running backs worse than DD. So, the question is whether either Bush or VY can be the principle player in a Superbowl run. I've stated my piece (Bush), but don't get particularly upset when people say VY. I can also see a very compelling argument for neither. So, as a Houston fan (since this is the subject of the thread) I really don't care right now. I know the coaches, scouts, and Cass will make their judgements and make their pick.

As an aside, I also lived in Fort Worth for five years (TCU). I found Cowboy fans to be unbearable. I heard the "hole in Texas Stadium was so God could watch his Cowboys" line enough to make me hurl. However, I also recognized I was in Cowboys country. However, I root for two teams each Sunday; the Texans and whoever plays the Cowboys.

outofhnd
01-24-2006, 09:13 PM
Good Lord How did this turn into a draft discussion?

Im a Houston fan living In dallas. I root for houston 1st dallas 2nd and the rest with the exception of Tennessee & washington I watch with an open mind... I useed to hate the 49ers, But i really like Mike Nolan and think he is going to be a great coach.

Anyhow back to the draft.. its only like 3 months away.

OzzO
01-24-2006, 09:34 PM
...First, If we trade down, fine. If we draft Vince, fine. I only think it is a loss, if we Draft Regie Bush, because I think we'll be spin our wheels. I'm under the impression we are interested in Kubiak because of his run blocking system in Denver. His ability to make anybody a 1600yard back. I also think we have the backs to do that. No reason for a RB #1 overall....Kubiak's teams are great at RunBlocking.... then we'll have to teach car how to work behind a line that can't pass block as well as they run block..... hence, Vince Young is a good fit. If David would have gotten himself hurt sometime in the last two years, I'd be with you, we owe him another shot. But he hasn't, we've seen him.......

Bravo, good post. Your point made sense to me and some valid points in my thought process. Personally, I've been more of the "undecided - let the people in charge make the call" group with a slight lean towards Reggie and a sprinkle of "trade down". Till this point, never was towards Young - but you just sparked a little interest in him for me.

Ultimately, I'll probably still reside in the "undecided" group as I still have the homer tendencies that the FO will make the right call for the team with a new coaching staff, a consultant, a more hands on owner, and a bib brother watched GM.

Riddle me this, Batman (to hijack the thread even more) - there's been questions in the past of who's our #2 WR... do we have the #2 WR now, ready to go? I've head very little about quality WR's in this draft - it seems to be all QB/RB... all the time.

How is it, if the Offensive line is SO horrible, you have had this kind of rushing production, yet your QB gets his *** beaten every game?

Is Carr coachable or is he another Drew Bledsoe who wants to pat the ball all day until he sees a throw he likes? Is he just slow to make reads and find receivers?

Why all the hype to take Reggie Bush when the production at RB is way better than the production at QB?

Fine, you don't want VY, then why not make a case for taking Wheinhart?

To get back on the thought of the original post though. The rush protection vs. QB on his nether region - that's been covered some with run block / pass block... To add, there could be some upgrading to the line, esp. at center. Carr developed happy feet in his beginning years with the Texans (is he one to prefer to roll out though - from his college days, or was he better at staying in the pocket?) and with buzzers, shorter drops, and visions of 700 lbs dropping on him numerous plays.... we'll see if Kubiak thinks that can be turned around. Guess, that answered your 2nd question as well.

The hype of Reggie... it's a preference. I do think we need a RBBC and not to mainly rely on one RB, if nothing else - to help with wear and tear over the season and career.

I do think we're going to have to get a QB sometime, if Ragone isn't going to step up (moreso than NFLE MVP) to really impress in the offseason and during practices to show he's a viable #2 to step in at a moments notice. Right now, if Carr gets injured - I'm not too thrilled with either current backup coming in.

Big B Texan Fan
01-24-2006, 09:48 PM
That's easy. Run blocking and pass blocking are two separate things. It is possible to do one thing well and another thing poorly.
All 5 guys and their back-ups?! I guess you think anything is possible huh?

LBC_Justin
01-24-2006, 10:00 PM
4 yards per carry is pretty freaking good dude.

If all you did was run on 1, 2, 3rd down averaging 4 yards a carry, your offense never leaves the field and would score every time.

I don't buy it. I understand there is a difference between run and pass blocking; however, these guys have been blocking forever. Something had to be breaking down in pass blocking. Either someone wasn't making the right blocking calls, David Carr stinks at getting rid of the ball quick or, people do not fear David Carr will burn them if they blitz him every down.

There has to be an explaination for why Dominack Davis can be productive behind that line and D Carr can't.STOP THE PRESSES!!!!
#1. The Texans running game is not as good as the stats seem. Let me explain. It is really easy to make an 8-10 yard run, when it is 3rd and 20 and your down by three touchdowns in the 4th quarter and your coach calls a draw play. The texans former coaching staff had a habit of running when we needed to be passing. Yes we picked up yards but only the yards the defensive formation was giving us. This artificially inflates the stats of our running backs.

#2. Yes, as everyone on here is claiming there is a huge difference between run blocking and pass blocking, they are totally different skill sets. No it is not a reflection on David Carr, sure you could point to a few times he shouldn't have been sacked but he is under emmense pressure. On the NFL network they did a show on pass protection. They had a timer and where showing how long each QB had to pass before the pocket clapsed. They were laughing at the Texans because the pocket was open for a millisecond. They felt bad for David. That is why they have to roll him out and move the pocket around because they can't protect it to save their lives.

#3 Dallas sucks. There are few trees there and the trees that are there are small (I'm originally from The Woodlands). Plus there is NO REASON for a city to be in that location. No Ocean, No big Lake, No port, No river, Valley, No mountains...........oh that's right that is where the train tracks crossed and passengers stopped there to take a dump.

outofhnd
01-24-2006, 10:12 PM
Should we change this topic to in state rivalry therapy session? This is a time for healing not hatred. Healing..:highfive:

TheOgre
01-25-2006, 10:20 AM
bah, Dallas hasn't always been the better team.

That might be the case for about 4-5 years (1987-1990). Outside of that, Dallas was equal to or better than the Oiler every other year.

thunderkyss
01-25-2006, 11:00 AM
Bravo, good post. Your point made sense to me and some valid points in my thought process. Personally, I've been more of the "undecided - let the people in charge make the call" group with a slight lean towards Reggie and a sprinkle of "trade down". Till this point, never was towards Young - but you just sparked a little interest in him for me.



Thanks for the props bro'

Jack Bauer
01-25-2006, 11:03 AM
All 5 guys and their back-ups?! I guess you think anything is possible huh?

As a team, yes it is possible.

DRAMA
01-25-2006, 11:14 AM
I don't think Reggie adds anything to this team, that we don't already have.

I uhh........wow!!??
:confused:

Glacier
01-25-2006, 11:19 AM
... I don't think Reggie adds anything to this team, that we don't already have.



woah woah now....

I am OBVIOUSLY against taking Bush with the 1st pick. Anyone who pays any attention at all to my posts clearly knows that.

I wouldn't say this at all though. This is simply not accurate. Reggie Bush, with a creative offensive coordinator will create horrible pressure on defenses by lining up out wide, in the slot or in the back field. He is a threat, though, an over hyped threat, given that he played against average talent until he played Texas, at which point, he looked more human....still good, but more human.

I don't believe reggie bush will be as successful if he ends up in a system where he exclusively lines up in the backfield. I'll say it again: he would be a perfect fit in Philly (puke) or Minnesota.

Glacier
01-25-2006, 11:23 AM
STOP THE PRESSES!!!!
#3 Dallas sucks. There are few trees there and the trees that are there are small (I'm originally from The Woodlands). Plus there is NO REASON for a city to be in that location. No Ocean, No big Lake, No port, No river, Valley, No mountains...........oh that's right that is where the train tracks crossed and passengers stopped there to take a dump.

you started off so well and were making so much sense until you decided to be a tard....shame really.

DRAMA
01-25-2006, 11:29 AM
I'll say it again: he would be a perfect fit in Philly (puke) or Minnesota.

or Arizona??

I REALLY want Bush but hey, I'm thinking Fitzgerald, Dansby (or Leonard Davis) and their #1 will pretty much have me trading Bush before you can blink!!!

I mean, a guy can dream, right? We're drafting #1, why not ask for the world and see if someone bites?

Glacier
01-25-2006, 11:31 AM
or Arizona??

I REALLY want Bush but hey, I'm thinking Fitzgerald, Dansby (or Leonard Davis) and their #1 will pretty much have me trading Bush before you can blink!!!

I mean, a guy can dream, right? We're drafting #1, why not ask for the world and see if someone bites?


I have mad respect for Denny Green. I bet he would blow up in Arizona if he had someone to throw him the damn ball. :P I don't think they part ways with Fitzgerald though. He is a Denny Green pick and has had ties to Denny Green since he was a ball boy for him.

DRAMA
01-25-2006, 11:37 AM
True...but hey - the mroe hype for Vince and Reggie, the more the asking price goes up. Everytime someone argues over those two, the more we could get if do trade. I hope we get Reggie

HOWEVER

if we do draft Vince or get a Dansby, Leonard Davis/ Adrian Wilson, #1 pick for it - see ya Reg (But if Reg is reading this - you're my boy, 5!!!!)!

jim rome
01-25-2006, 11:47 AM
The reason every one in houston hates cowboyfans is because in houston when the cowboys win they are really in to them and loud and when they lose they dont even clam them also people think that they won because their players are high on coke (#88) !

thunderkyss
01-25-2006, 11:53 AM
woah woah now....

I wouldn't say this at all though. This is simply not accurate. Reggie Bush, with a creative offensive coordinator will create horrible pressure on defenses by lining up out wide, in the slot or in the back field. He is a threat, though, an over hyped threat, given that he played against average talent until he played Texas, at which point, he looked more human....still good, but more human.


Right, just like you said. Reggie within a creative offense. We were anything buy creative last year, or any of the four years we've "competed". And Kubiak( I assume) is going to make us a dominant run threat. I don't believe Reggie adds anything to this team, because we haven't, and won't be running those "fancy" Offenses......... St Louis, San Francisco, Indy, Buffalo.... but not us.... this is not a knock on Reggie, I'm just saying he's a square peg, we're kinda round...

LBC_Justin
01-25-2006, 02:34 PM
Right, just like you said. Reggie within a creative offense. We were anything buy creative last year, or any of the four years we've "competed". And Kubiak( I assume) is going to make us a dominant run threat. I don't believe Reggie adds anything to this team, because we haven't, and won't be running those "fancy" Offenses......... St Louis, San Francisco, Indy, Buffalo.... but not us.... this is not a knock on Reggie, I'm just saying he's a square peg, we're kinda round...If we are going to be a running team then we don't need a guy like Vince Young either. We stick with Carr or draft Leinart or Cutler. Great running teams usually have Pocket Passers to keep the defenders in check.

I am starting to lean toward trading down and getting D'Brick. LOL I flip flop back and forth almost on an hourly basis.

As long as the player is a difference maker, I guess I don't care. I just want to win.

thunderkyss
01-25-2006, 02:43 PM
I am starting to lean toward trading down and getting D'Brick. LOL I flip flop back and forth almost on an hourly basis.



As long as you're keeping it honest. We're all fans here, and this VY/Bush/TradeDown "controversy" has really picked up the excitement of this season. I can't remember the last time I was this excited about the offseason, and I'm having a lot of fun to boot.