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TexanBacker93
01-23-2006, 12:58 AM
Does anyone here really think that the team really cares what a handful of fans think should be done? Do you think the team really worries about "stealing" fans from the Cowboys by bringing in a Longhorn? Honestly, if it were that easy to get those fans, I doubt the team would want them. The Texans will do what they feel is best for the long term success of the franchise. Considering they have men who have spent their entire lives evaluating players, coaching players, and the Texans fans are comprised of a bunch of people that maybe played some in High School or college I think they will probably stick with the guys getting paid to make the decisions.

If the Texans start winning, fans will fill the seats. It won't matter if Young goes on to become the greatest ever. One man doesn't make a team. He could be the next Dan Marino and never see a ring. I'd rather have a team in the playoffs/Super Bowl each year than the next Dan Marino. That's not to say Bush is the next coming of Sanders or Sayers or whoever. I think the most important thing to get fans is to win.

I see people being called losers because they refuse to stop following the Texans if the team passes on Young. I must disagree. I fail to see what that will accomplish. Fans can be disenchanted, they can dislike moves a team makes, but on a grand scale fans don't have much say. Granted, fans can refuse to go to games as they did last season and that was a big reason Capers lost his job. There is a big difference between accepting failure and standing by the team. If I had a say in the matter it might be different, but there are only a few things I can do as a fan to show my displeasure.

Giving up game tickets...
I've paid good money for tickets, I love the game, so why would I avoid going? I don't have the income to just not use my seats and I think it's absurd to skip going to a game that you've paid money for because you are upset with the team. The team has already got the money so that won't hurt them too much.

Season Tickets...
I could not renew my tickets. I have seats in the Southern End Zone (shady side) 5 rows from the field, though. I've had these seats since they first went on sale and been to every game since preseason game 1 against the Dolphins. I'm not going to lose those seats to make a point. It will be next to impossible to get those back in a few years when they start winning.

Other costs...
I can go to the games and not buy merchandise or concessions. I don't really do much of this anyways. It's costly and since I tailgate I don't need food in the stadium. This gets impacted mostly when the stadium is half empty so I guess not showing up can do some damage. Still, from me, they gain nothing here.

Stop rooting altogether...
There have been scientific studies, but no proof that rooting actually influences a game one way or another. Making loud noise during certain times can disrupt a team, but you can do that without rooting. I mean come on, if rooting actually made a difference the Sacramento Kings would have multiple NBA Championships. Those fans are incredible even when the team is awful.

Pick a new team...
How do you go about picking a new team anyways? Do you use spreadsheets? Do you make a list of pros and cons? I can understand people watching the Titans or Cowboys because of their history. I can understand people rooting for a team from their home area. I still have a soft spot for the Broncos after growing up in Colorado. I live in Houston now, though, so that's the team for me.

Threaten to jump off a roof...
While this might get on the news, I don't think McNair would let me make the decisions based on this. He might say he will and then once I'm in a Psych Hospital they'd do what they were going to do anyways.

I realize this is rambling. It's late and I can't sleep. Kobe just dropped 81 on the Raptors and I have to be up for work in 4 hours.

texman8
01-23-2006, 05:14 AM
Very good points, Sir. It's very obvious posters here want a certain player to be drafted by the Texans. To threaten to switch allegiances or support from TExans is weak; however,that is their free choice/will. The important thing is to support the Texans. We can question and even rant about their decisions. I had inaugral PSLs;sold them for financial reasons. I'll still support them because they are one of Houston's teams.

rittenhouserobz
01-23-2006, 06:28 AM
Players, owners, and coaches come and go. The fans are the people who keep the team alive. I don't care who the Texans draft as long as it makes sense for the current coache's scheme. I think the bad part about losing a coach is that the new coach MUST use the players of the previous coach. The new coach has to deal with overpaid veterans of the previous coach. The decisions that the team makes will be fine with me.

I will not protest, because I love the Texans and I will be here even when Carr, DD, and AJ have either moved to another team or retired. Just like I am still here now that Capers, and Sharper are gone. My advise is simple. Be satisified that there is a Houston Texans. I can understand the choices that the team makes may affect some people, but not me. Good luck next year Houston Texans.

profan
01-23-2006, 09:52 AM
just win baby! that will bring the fans back!

DiapHer
01-23-2006, 10:06 AM
Does anyone here really think that the team really cares what a handful of fans think should be done? Do you think the team really worries about "stealing" fans from the Cowboys by bringing in a Longhorn? Honestly, if it were that easy to get those fans, I doubt the team would want them. The Texans will do what they feel is best for the long term success of the franchise. Considering they have men who have spent their entire lives evaluating players, coaching players, and the Texans fans are comprised of a bunch of people that maybe played some in High School or college I think they will probably stick with the guys getting paid to make the decisions.


NO,they don't

Hookem Horns
01-23-2006, 10:07 AM
First of all, saying that only a "handful of fans" want the Texans to draft VY is VERY conservative.

Secondly, has it ever occurred to you that just maybe most of those fans want the Texans to grab VY because they want to win also? It's not about converting Cowboys fans, etc. It is about the chance to have a great QB (the most important position on the field). As history has shown, those chances don't come often. Maybe also, these same fans think Bush isn't worth a #1 pick, since he isn't an every down player.

However, to answer your question, no the team isn't going to take into consideration what the fans think.

Wharton
01-23-2006, 10:42 AM
While I don't think the Texans are going to base their top draft pick on what the fans want, make no mistake about it, the Texans monitor this board. A prime example is the roof situation. A large number of fans complained after the Pittsburgh game about the heat level in the stadium, from what I understand the policy has been changed.

The draft is a problem for the Texans no matter who they pick. The Texans will take the player they think will generate the most wins as quickly as possible. In football, winning cures allot of evils. The Texan fans are very restless right now. A few wins at the beginning of the season would go a long way to quieting this fan base. Something the draft will not do.

HoustonFrog
01-23-2006, 10:50 AM
1) No, the front office won't listen to the fans per se

2) McNair might think about the fans with his pocketbook

3) Not everyone who wants VY is a Texas fan who just wants their favorite guy. They are talking about it in Dallas and other areas because they think VY is a stud with a ton of upside and leadership. They may think that Bush isn't an every down back and may wear down quick.

4) Not every Bush fan is blinded by just one game like Fresno. They want more team speed and someone that defense has to key on.

My point. There are two really incredibly gifted athletes in the draft that are also good kids that any team would want. There is also good reasons to trade down. NONE of these reasons makes a person a bad fan or a homer or a UT fan that needs ridilin.

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 11:29 AM
If the Texans start winning, fans will fill the seats. It won't matter if Young goes on to become the greatest ever. One man doesn't make a team. He could be the next Dan Marino and never see a ring. I'd rather have a team in the playoffs/Super Bowl each year than the next Dan Marino. That's not to say Bush is the next coming of Sanders or Sayers or whoever. I think the most important thing to get fans is to win.
A lot of us think Young is the best way to get those wins. Over the long term, I can see Carr having a good year, maybe two.. But I don't see him being able to do it 4 or 5 years, and definitely not well into the future.

I see people being called losers because they refuse to stop following the Texans if the team passes on Young. I must disagree. I fail to see what that will accomplish. Fans can be disenchanted, they can dislike moves a team makes, but on a grand scale fans don't have much say. Granted, fans can refuse to go to games as they did last season and that was a big reason Capers lost his job. There is a big difference between accepting failure and standing by the team. If I had a say in the matter it might be different, but there are only a few things I can do as a fan to show my displeasure.

personally, I don't see that many Vince Supporters with this attitude. Most of us are just voicing our opinion like the Draft Reggie crowd. I'll support the Texans, I'll pray for Carr to do well, but I will throw it in your faces, if he doesn't.

I realize this is rambling. It's late and I can't sleep. Kobe just dropped 81 on the Raptors and I have to be up for work in 4 hours.

Sonics and Suns went into double over time.. the score was up in the 150s or something.

T-Mac dropped 41 on Detroit(DETROIT) in a 97-99 loss

But Kobe's 81 overshadowed all that......... Kids got problems, but damm. I think I'd have had to to throw some 'bows or something when he got to 60.

Double Barrel
01-23-2006, 11:36 AM
I hope the front office never listens to fans with regards to personel decisions. We'd probably never be a winning franchise if they did!

I'm a Texans fan for life, regardless of what individual players they decide to sign. I'm a fan of the team, not necessarily single players. Once they leave us and sign up with another team, they are now considered the enemy. :howdy:

jerek
01-23-2006, 11:41 AM
First of all, saying that only a "handful of fans" want the Texans to draft VY is VERY conservative.

Secondly, has it ever occurred to you that just maybe most of those fans want the Texans to grab VY because they want to win also? It's not about converting Cowboys fans, etc. It is about the chance to have a great QB (the most important position on the field). As history has shown, those chances don't come often. Maybe also, these same fans think Bush isn't worth a #1 pick, since he isn't an every down player.

However, to answer your question, no the team isn't going to take into consideration what the fans think.

Fans want W's. Fans pay to see winning, no matter who is taking the snaps. Fans grow to love winners. They grow to dislike losers.

McNair and Kubiak and Cass and Co. will do what they feel is best for the team in the long run, toward the goal of winning. If it was between Vince and another QB who were the exact same, all other things being equal, then of course they will take Vince because he is a fan favorite and a hometown guy. However, since that is not what our decision boils down to, they will make the move that they feel will produce Ws for this team. W's fill seats. Say what you want about Vince or Bush or anyone really, but if we are 4-12 this time next year, we are going to be looking at a lot of empty seats again.

I too do not understand why a "fan" would disavow this franchise simply for passing on their personal favorite player of the time, but I too will not miss their presence at our home games this year. Still, there aren't many laws when it comes to be a fan; so if you enjoy it, then do what works for you.

bckey
01-23-2006, 11:57 AM
I too do not understand why a "fan" would disavow this franchise simply for passing on their personal favorite player of the time, but I too will not miss their presence at our home games this year. Still, there aren't many laws when it comes to be a fan; so if you enjoy it, then do what works for you.

I don't think any Texans fans are going to stop being fans just because their favorite player isn't drafted. I've only seen it happen once and that was when Jerry Jones got rid of Landry the way he did. But that is something totally different.

Errant Hothy
01-23-2006, 11:59 AM
I hope the front office never listens to fans with regards to personel decisions. We'd probably never be a winning franchise if they did!

I'm a Texans fan for life, regardless of what individual players they decide to sign. I'm a fan of the team, not necessarily single players. Once they leave us and sign up with another team, they are now considered the enemy. :howdy:

Amen, brother.

Just in case the FO is readin this: Never, ever listen to waht I say in this board. Casue I thought Leaf was going to be a stud and Manning a bust...Yeah, I kinda got that one wrong.:rolleyes:

Snapple
01-23-2006, 12:25 PM
I am a Longhorns fan, sure. I went to the University. I love the football team, and Vince Young made me a happy man when he toppled USC.

However, that doesn't mean that VY is purely a homer pick. People who want to see Vince want to see him because they believe he can win, not because he's marketable. The guy has done everything that has been asked of him. He leads the national in passing efficiency. He was 30/40 in completions in the national championship. He's athletic. He can pick apart a defense. He's a good decision maker. He's clutch. He handles pressure situations and big games with no sweat. Just MAYBE people actually think he should be drafted because he's GOOD, not just because he's a Longhorn. It has NOTHING to do with "stealing fans" from the Cowboys.

jerek
01-23-2006, 12:41 PM
I don't think any Texans fans are going to stop being fans just because their favorite player isn't drafted. I've only seen it happen once and that was when Jerry Jones got rid of Landry the way he did. But that is something totally different.

If you read a lot of these threads, you will see a handful of people "threatening" to do exactly that. I say "threaten" because they talk about it as if we are anyone in the Texans front office should be intimidated or impressed by it: this isn't a surprise, we/they are not.

A minority, sure, but a minority that I was addressing with that statement.

TexanBacker93
01-23-2006, 09:04 PM
I guess my biggest concern about caving in to public demand and bringing in Young is that he really isn't ready to start in the NFL. Every scout has said he would have benefited from staying one more year, but how do you pass up a top 3 pick and the possibility of playing in Houston or Tennessee with your godfather. If Young continues to develop like he has over the past 3 seasons at UT he will be one of the all-time greats. Someday. QBs take a lot longer to be successful in the NFL. You can't tell me there is a QB out there that was more ready to be an NFL QB than Peyton Manning and he threw something like 122 Ints his first season. Ok, it was 28, but the team won all of 3 games that year. The same number as they did the previous year. If the Texans draft Young they have no choice but to trade Carr and start Banks and give Young time to learn. That leaves Houston with 4 wins next season. Fans won't come out to the stadium to watch Houston lose if Young isn't even playing. Granted, that would leave Houston with a great pick next season to compliment Young, but I don't think McNair wants to go through another season like this last one. I sure don't.

ReggieTheRealDeal
01-23-2006, 10:16 PM
Good post. Im going to stand by this team no matter what, you know how long I waited for football to come back to houston, im sure not gonna stop being a fan because they didnt draft the person I wanted. Im just glad to have a football team here again.

LBC_Justin
01-23-2006, 11:05 PM
I am a Longhorns fan, sure. I went to the University. I love the football team, and Vince Young made me a happy man when he toppled USC.

However, that doesn't mean that VY is purely a homer pick. People who want to see Vince want to see him because they believe he can win, not because he's marketable. The guy has done everything that has been asked of him. He leads the national in passing efficiency. He was 30/40 in completions in the national championship. He's athletic. He can pick apart a defense. He's a good decision maker. He's clutch. He handles pressure situations and big games with no sweat. Just MAYBE people actually think he should be drafted because he's GOOD, not just because he's a Longhorn. It has NOTHING to do with "stealing fans" from the Cowboys.Then why aren't we talking about drafting Matt Leinart? Not a single word. He isn't even mentioned as an option.

He is much more of a pro prospect, plays in a pro style offense, has won two national championships and got his team to a thrid. He even put up big numbers against a better defense than VY faced. He is much more in the mold of all the QBs that have ever won the superbowl.

Why not Matt Leinart?

If VY is so great, how could he slip to the Titans if the Texans don't take him?

AustinJB
01-24-2006, 12:12 AM
Then why aren't we talking about drafting Matt Leinart? Not a single word. He isn't even mentioned as an option.

He is much more of a pro prospect, plays in a pro style offense, has won two national championships and got his team to a thrid. He even put up big numbers against a better defense than VY faced. He is much more in the mold of all the QBs that have ever won the superbowl.

Why not Matt Leinart?

If VY is so great, how could he slip to the Titans if the Texans don't take him?

Well, me personally, I've never been sold on Leinart. I'll take VY over Leinart anyday. Every time I've watched Leinart, I haven't really been impressed. Yes, he's put up good stats but I've never watched him and thought "Man, he's going to wreck the NFL one day."

As far as fitting the "mold of all the QBs that have ever won the SB,"....what does that matter? Just b/c there has never been someone like VY to do it before, doesn't mean that he won't take a team there. Maybe he'll redifine the postition. Heck, there's never been a QB like him before...ever IMO. Non w/ that size and athleticism. What's wrong w/ breaking the mold? Think outside the box. I'm not trying to predict the future, but maybe he will be that great...just b/c someone like him hasn't done it yet, doesn't mean that they never will.

As far as why VY will slip to TN if we don't take him.....b/c NO has the pick. They are more interested in a traditional passer b/c they are scarred by a running QB named A.Brooks. And, if anything, just the fact that the Saints think Leinart is the better QB should prove that he is not. LOL.

TreWardTxn
01-24-2006, 12:21 AM
Does anyone here really think that the team really cares what a handful of fans think should be done? Do you think the team really worries about "stealing" fans from the Cowboys by bringing in a Longhorn? Honestly, if it were that easy to get those fans, I doubt the team would want them. The Texans will do what they feel is best for the long term success of the franchise. Considering they have men who have spent their entire lives evaluating players, coaching players, and the Texans fans are comprised of a bunch of people that maybe played some in High School or college I think they will probably stick with the guys getting paid to make the decisions.


I see what you tryin to say, but your viewpoint is very shortsigthed. The bottom line is that the organization, meaning McNair, is very interested in "stealing" fans from the Cowboys in the Austin and San Antonio area (TX in general) because it means extra $$$$$. Everyone in TX has some connection to the Texas Longhorns, whether they're alumni, know friends, family, hate it, whatever...If people in Austin and SA want to see the Texans play (for whatever reason), it will generate more money for the TV affiliate, more exposure for the Texans, which equals more money for McNair. Furthermore, maybe McNair doesn't care about potential "fans" outside Houston, but he certainly cares about filling those seats at Reliant and right or wrong, there is one player that will definetely do that for at least 3 years...

Mr. White
01-24-2006, 12:24 AM
McNair said it himself after the Dallas game 4 years ago: "The Cowboys can be America's team. I just want to be Texas' team." (something to that extent.)

HoustonFan
01-24-2006, 12:44 AM
Hey, I ain't going nowhere as a fan of Houston sports. Whatever decisions the teams make as far as the direction it is to go, when it's played out on the field or court it's Houston all the way. :superman:

LBC_Justin
01-24-2006, 10:54 AM
Well, me personally, I've never been sold on Leinart. I'll take VY over Leinart anyday. Every time I've watched Leinart, I haven't really been impressed. Yes, he's put up good stats but I've never watched him and thought "Man, he's going to wreck the NFL one day."

As far as fitting the "mold of all the QBs that have ever won the SB,"....what does that matter? Just b/c there has never been someone like VY to do it before, doesn't mean that he won't take a team there. Maybe he'll redifine the postition. Heck, there's never been a QB like him before...ever IMO. Non w/ that size and athleticism. What's wrong w/ breaking the mold? Think outside the box. I'm not trying to predict the future, but maybe he will be that great...just b/c someone like him hasn't done it yet, doesn't mean that they never will.

As far as why VY will slip to TN if we don't take him.....b/c NO has the pick. They are more interested in a traditional passer b/c they are scarred by a running QB named A.Brooks. And, if anything, just the fact that the Saints think Leinart is the better QB should prove that he is not. LOL.
Is Vince Young that unique?

Last year:
Matt Jones, QB - University of Arkansas
Taller(6-6), Bigger(242),Faster(4.37 in the 40) and Smarter(Academic Honor Roll in College) than Vince Young.
- Put up similar numbers against similar if not better competition.
- Averaged more yards per run in college.
- Very similar highlight reel.

If he played for UT he would be the second comming.

He didn't get to play for a contender. He didn't get to play with the Talent Vince did.

Oh and he also averaged 24.5 point per game as a college basketball player (conference record for scoring average).

He was drafted in the first round last year by the Jaguars and moved to Wide Reciever. That would be Vince's fate too if he didn't play for Texas.

stevo3883
01-24-2006, 11:19 AM
lmao this is the most retarded post ive ever seen.

Matt Jones putting up similar stats to VY?? ARE YOU SERIOUS?

dude, you're out of touch with reality. Matt Jones was a mediocre QB AT BEST. He isnt even a very good runner, hes just fast. He has a weak arm and just makes stupid decisions.

"VY would be at Wr if he didnt play for Texas" ok you lost all credibility from now on with that statement.

Glacier
01-24-2006, 11:44 AM
Is Vince Young that unique?

Last year:
Matt Jones, QB - University of Arkansas
Taller(6-6), Bigger(242),Faster(4.37 in the 40) and Smarter(Academic Honor Roll in College) than Vince Young.
- Put up similar numbers against similar if not better competition.
- Averaged more yards per run in college.
- Very similar highlight reel.

If he played for UT he would be the second comming.

He didn't get to play for a contender. He didn't get to play with the Talent Vince did.

Oh and he also averaged 24.5 point per game as a college basketball player (conference record for scoring average).

He was drafted in the first round last year by the Jaguars and moved to Wide Reciever. That would be Vince's fate too if he didn't play for Texas.


O hey....

I really liked Matt Jones. I think the guy was simply amazing. He nearly single handedly beat Texas in 2004. He wasn't a very good QB. He knew from the get go, that he would be a WR in the NFL and didn't fight it. As far as QBs go, he isn't even in the same league as VY though.

LBC_Justin
01-24-2006, 11:47 AM
lmao this is the most retarded post ive ever seen.

Matt Jones putting up similar stats to VY?? ARE YOU SERIOUS?

dude, you're out of touch with reality. Matt Jones was a mediocre QB AT BEST. He isnt even a very good runner, hes just fast. He has a weak arm and just makes stupid decisions.

"VY would be at Wr if he didnt play for Texas" ok you lost all credibility from now on with that statement.Answer me this:
Did Vince Young have a better O-line? Yes
Did Vince Young have a better running back? Yes
Did Vince Young have better recievers? Yes
Did Vince Young have a better Tight end? Yes
Did Vince Young have a better Defense behind him? Yes
Did Vince Young face as many good teams as Matt Jones? No
Ohio State and USC were awesome teams but VY did not face as many good teams as Matt Jones faced in 2004. Jones played against...Alabama, Texas, Florida, Auburn, Georgia, South Carolina, & LSU.

Is Matt Jones faster than Vince Young? Yes
Saying Matt Jones is just fast and not a good runner is crazy talk. Matt Jones has proved you wrong in the NFL this year(not against college teams)(Also, They said that about Jerome Mathis too.) Matt Jones averages more yards per run than Vince Young. What does that say.
Is Matt Jones Taller than Vince Young? Yes
Is Matt Jones Bigger than Vince Young? Yes
Is Matt Jones a better athelete than Vince Young? Probably - stand out in multiple sports. Could have played in the NBA too.

Would I take Matt Jones over Vince Young in the draft? No way in Hell. Vince Young is the better QB.
Is Vince Young worth the #1 pick? Not in my opinion.(#3 pick yes)

The whole point of my post is.......
Vince Young is not some freaky "once in a lifetime athelete", as a previous poster mentioned. Matt Jones is just one example.

I am not trying to say Matt Jones is a better QB because I don't believe that. But the argument could be made.

SteelBlueToro
01-24-2006, 01:03 PM
Let's not forget that one of the worsts defenses in the NCAA made VY look/play less than spectacular. He didn't look like the second coming against A&M...

TreWardTxn
01-24-2006, 10:21 PM
[QUOTE=LBC_Justin]Is Vince Young that unique?

Last year:
Matt Jones, QB - University of Arkansas
Taller(6-6), Bigger(242),Faster(4.37 in the 40) and Smarter(Academic Honor Roll in College) than Vince Young.

If anyone wants to know why some people think there are "racial" overtones to this discussion about whether the Texans should keep Carr or draft Vince Young, then look no further. No player, black or white, has EVER had their GPA called into question, but because we are talking about a "running" (i.e. Black) QB, this suddenly becomes a topic of interest. By calling Matt Jones "smarter" it implies Young is "dumber", although he handled academic life (while playing an intense collegiate sport) at a top rated institution most people in the state would love to get into. Because he is black, suddenly his play on the field, like great decisions with the football, take a backseat to how well he performed in the classroom, which I'm sure most agree is totally irrelevant. Obviously, not everyone feels the same way as the quoted poster, but if one person says it, thousands more are thinking it...

All I'm saying is, if anyone has ever heard a White QBs grades called into question, then let me know...

And as far as Matt Jones goes...NFL scouts don't care about the talent you played against in college if you can go to the combine and through the ball through hoops and place deep outs on a frozen rope. Big Ben went to Miami Ohio; if you can play, they will find you. Jones is a freaky athlete, but not the thrower, decision maker, or leader Young is, making him less complete at QB and more apt for the wideout position...

Grid
01-24-2006, 10:30 PM
oh shut up. seriously.

Every freaking player in the draft has his intelligence questioned. its called the wonderlic test. It is especially important at the QB position.

god.. how annoying.

TreWardTxn
01-24-2006, 10:51 PM
oh shut up. seriously.

Every freaking player in the draft has his intelligence questioned. its called the wonderlic test. It is especially important at the QB position.

god.. how annoying.

Who ever talks about it outside the draft? Has anyone on this board ever posted anything about a player calling their grades into question? I wasn't talking about the combine. Those people get so far into those dudes lives they know what whether sit or stand at the toilet in the morning. I was talking about laymen, like us...You can act like its a stupid topic, but then you just ignoring the facts. If people think it doesn't matter, then why did dude post that up there? He didn't say 'Matt Jones wrecked the NFL combine aptitude test', he said he made the Honor roll. So all of sudden, it just so happens that grades are an issue when there's a chance a black guy may come QB this team?

Texans_Chick
01-24-2006, 10:58 PM
Answer me this:
Did Vince Young have a better O-line? Yes
Did Vince Young have a better running back? Yes
Did Vince Young have better recievers? Yes
Did Vince Young have a better Tight end? Yes
Did Vince Young have a better Defense behind him? Yes
Did Vince Young face as many good teams as Matt Jones? No
Ohio State and USC were awesome teams but VY did not face as many good teams as Matt Jones faced in 2004. Jones played against...Alabama, Texas, Florida, Auburn, Georgia, South Carolina, & LSU.

Is Matt Jones faster than Vince Young? Yes
Saying Matt Jones is just fast and not a good runner is crazy talk. Matt Jones has proved you wrong in the NFL this year(not against college teams)(Also, They said that about Jerome Mathis too.) Matt Jones averages more yards per run than Vince Young. What does that say.
Is Matt Jones Taller than Vince Young? Yes
Is Matt Jones Bigger than Vince Young? Yes
Is Matt Jones a better athelete than Vince Young? Probably - stand out in multiple sports. Could have played in the NBA too.

Would I take Matt Jones over Vince Young in the draft? No way in Hell. Vince Young is the better QB.
Is Vince Young worth the #1 pick? Not in my opinion.(#3 pick yes)

The whole point of my post is.......
Vince Young is not some freaky "once in a lifetime athelete", as a previous poster mentioned. Matt Jones is just one example.

I am not trying to say Matt Jones is a better QB because I don't believe that. But the argument could be made.


Interesting post. A few points.

VY put up fatter stats even though he was out of most games by the fourth quarter and the passing game was shut down.

As for his receivers, a lot of people thought that VY would struggle in 2005 because his best receivers left and he was going to be playing with a relatively inexperienced receiver corp. And he won with them against Ohio State, early in the season, on the road at night.

From a statistical standpoint, Matt Jones and Vince Young in their last year of college aren't even close:

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Matt Jones (last college season), Drafted 21st (round 1) 6'6" 242 lbs

2073 passing yards
57.2 completion percentage
264 attempts for 151 completions, 7.9 av yards per attempt
15 passing TDs with 12 INTs
83 rushes for 622 yards, 7.5 av yards per attempt, 6 rushing TDs


The reason why people marvel about VY's freaky abilities is that he is such an athlete but has the body and ability of a QB. And the guy seems to do things so effortlessly. It is a skill set that is hard to compare to anyone else. I've been trying to find valid comparisons and always fall short.


If he [Matt Jones] played for UT he would be the second comming.

I don't care where anyone played--if someone has VY's stats, plays like him, plays at a high level against top competition, well they could be from the planet NoWayHeJustDidThat! and I'd still want to draft him #1.

And I guess if VY played for a lesser program, he would have had bigger fatter stats because they would have needed him more--less giving it to the running backs when they were way ahead, and less getting him out of the game in the 3rd or 4th quarter.

Woulda coulda shoulda is a weird deal--I can see the arguments for Bush or trading down but taking VY as the legit first pick is also a rational position.

AustinJB
01-24-2006, 11:07 PM
The whole point of my post is.......
Vince Young is not some freaky "once in a lifetime athelete", as a previous poster mentioned. Matt Jones is just one example.

I am not trying to say Matt Jones is a better QB because I don't believe that. But the argument could be made.

This is ridiculous as many others have already pointed out. Matt Jones is NOT just one example; it is a horrible example.

VY definitely IS a "once in a lifetime athlete" at the QB position. Matt Jones played QB w/ similar physical attributes, but not even close to the intangibles at the QB position, not to mention his passing ability compared to VYs.

Apoch
01-24-2006, 11:10 PM
Is Vince Young that unique?

Last year:
Matt Jones, QB - University of Arkansas
Taller(6-6), Bigger(242),Faster(4.37 in the 40) and Smarter(Academic Honor Roll in College) than Vince Young.

If anyone wants to know why some people think there are "racial" overtones to this discussion about whether the Texans should keep Carr or draft Vince Young, then look no further. No player, black or white, has EVER had their GPA called into question, but because we are talking about a "running" (i.e. Black) QB, this suddenly becomes a topic of interest. By calling Matt Jones "smarter" it implies Young is "dumber", although he handled academic life (while playing an intense collegiate sport) at a top rated institution most people in the state would love to get into. Because he is black, suddenly his play on the field, like great decisions with the football, take a backseat to how well he performed in the classroom, which I'm sure most agree is totally irrelevant. Obviously, not everyone feels the same way as the quoted poster, but if one person says it, thousands more are thinking it...

All I'm saying is, if anyone has ever heard a White QBs grades called into question, then let me know...

And as far as Matt Jones goes...NFL scouts don't care about the talent you played against in college if you can go to the combine and through the ball through hoops and place deep outs on a frozen rope. Big Ben went to Miami Ohio; if you can play, they will find you. Jones is a freaky athlete, but not the thrower, decision maker, or leader Young is, making him less complete at QB and more apt for the wideout position...

Vince Young is definitely a better QB than Matt Jones was. Whether or not Matt Jones is a better athlete doesn't matter. Vince Young plays QB, and he will in the NFL. Matt Jones plays WR, and as a rookie he excelled in his new roll.

That being said, this is the one of those absurdly stupid times to even think about playing the race card. The attempted connection from academic honors (or lack thereof) to the general perceived view of a black QB (which is not nearly as ambiguous as some would suggest) is simply pathetic. QBs are one of the only positions where the Wonderlic carries a LOT of weight, and academic excellence is a good indicator that a QB will study hard. Look at Peyton Manning. He graduated Magna Cum Laude (which means "With the greatest praise" for you non Latin buffs), and you didn't have to tell me twice that he would be a very good student of the game. Intelligence matters quite a bit.

I am not even arguing whether or not Young's intelligence is questionable (actually, from the interviews I've seen he seems to have it all together). My point is that comments like these create over-compensation and misconceptions concerning true racial problems and are a classless way to lead a discussion. :thumbdown

Oh, and Dan Marino the (very white) all time leader in almost every passing statistic was questioned about his intelligence from college through his entire career. What do you expect from a kid who grew up in a steel town in Pennsylvania? The same thing one would expect from a kid who grew up in Houston I would guess. :twocents:

TreWardTxn
01-24-2006, 11:14 PM
Interesting post. A few points.

VY put up fatter stats even though he was out of most games by the fourth quarter and the passing game was shut down.

As for his receivers, a lot of people thought that VY would struggle in 2005 because his best receivers left and he was going to be playing with a relatively inexperienced receiver corp. And he won with them against Ohio State, early in the season, on the road at night.

From a statistical standpoint, Matt Jones and Vince Young in their last year of college aren't even close:

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Matt Jones (last college season), Drafted 21st (round 1) 6'6" 242 lbs

2073 passing yards
57.2 completion percentage
264 attempts for 151 completions, 7.9 av yards per attempt
15 passing TDs with 12 INTs
83 rushes for 622 yards, 7.5 av yards per attempt, 6 rushing TDs


The reason why people marvel about VY's freaky abilities is that he is such an athlete but has the body and ability of a QB. And the guy seems to do things so effortlessly. It is a skill set that is hard to compare to anyone else. I've been trying to find valid comparisons and always fall short.




I don't care where anyone played--if someone has VY's stats, plays like him, plays at a high level against top competition, well they could be from the planet NoWayHeJustDidThat! and I'd still want to draft him #1.

And I guess if VY played for a lesser program, he would have had bigger fatter stats because they would have needed him more--less giving it to the running backs when they were way ahead, and less getting him out of the game in the 3rd or 4th quarter.

Woulda coulda shoulda is a weird deal--I can see the arguments for Bush or trading down but taking VY as the legit first pick is also a rational position.


Good, sensible post; but Young is like nothing we have seen at the QB position, EVER, especially when you consider the physical skills and the against-all-odds plays/drives/performances we have seen on the field. The argument that Matt Jones was potentially a better NFL QB because of his GPA defies all reality...There actually are players comparable to him on a physical scale; Adrian McPherson (never got the chance at FSU), Culpepper (a few pounds lighter and a step quicker), Omar Jacobs (big stats) and if anyone saw the Senior Bowl, then you know Reggie McNeal will be a player in the league. But when you consider all the intangibles, you realize this guy is like Doug Flutie with the actual NFL body type and freakish ability to be a stand alone player. You don't know how he's going to beat you, but you think he will...

bigTEXan8
01-24-2006, 11:37 PM
Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Matt Jones (last college season), Drafted 21st (round 1) 6'6" 242 lbs

2073 passing yards
57.2 completion percentage
264 attempts for 151 completions, 7.9 av yards per attempt
15 passing TDs with 12 INTs
83 rushes for 622 yards, 7.5 av yards per attempt, 6 rushing TDs.

Here's the difference between M. Jones, M. Jones, M. Jones (some of you may or may not get that) and VY. VY played in a weak-*** Big 12. M. Jones, played in the extremely tough SEC. The best record behind Texas was 6-2 OK and TT. Woopty Friggin Doo. Now, the competition in the SEC...let me think...Auburn, LSU, Florida, Geogria, 'Bama (but I don't think 'Bama was that good, couldn't find the stadings from the year in which M. Jones graduated). The SEC, in comparison to the Big 12, is light years ahead of it. The SEC constantly has the better talent, better competition, better recruits, just overrall better. That's why it is so rare for SEC teams to go undefeated. Texas played a tough game against ... other than Thee Ohio St.? Word.

Hookem Horns
01-25-2006, 12:23 AM
Here's the difference between M. Jones, M. Jones, M. Jones (some of you may or may not get that) and VY. VY played in a weak-*** Big 12. M. Jones, played in the extremely tough SEC. The best record behind Texas was 6-2 OK and TT. Woopty Friggin Doo. Now, the competition in the SEC...let me think...Auburn, LSU, Florida, Geogria, 'Bama (but I don't think 'Bama was that good, couldn't find the stadings from the year in which M. Jones graduated). The SEC, in comparison to the Big 12, is light years ahead of it. The SEC constantly has the better talent, better competition, better recruits, just overrall better. That's why it is so rare for SEC teams to go undefeated. Texas played a tough game against ... other than Thee Ohio St.? Word.

So what? VY beat everybody they put in front of him and impressively so. The amazing thing is he looked his best vs. the tougher defenses, and played best when the game was on the line. Houston hasn't seen a guy like that since.... ever? I remember another guy (future Hall of Famer) in Houston that played great until he ran into the tougher defenses and loved to choke when the game was on the line.

I know very few of you are hockey fans, but Vince Young gets that "look" in his eyes when everything is on the line. The same "look" I always saw in Mark Messier's eyes when it was crunch time. To hockey fans Mark Messier was the greatest captain and leader to ever play the sport. The guy would just get determined and take over a game when it was necessary. I can't tell you how great it is to have a guy like that on your team because you just know you are going to win when your guy is in that "zone".

It sure beats when the game is on the line thinking or saying "ah crap, I just know Moon is going to throw a pick!" As much as I loved Warren Moon, I just always felt doomed in crunch time especially in games that mattered. Most of the time my fears were realized.

Mr. White
01-25-2006, 12:30 AM
Last week VY was the next Ron Mexico. This week he's the next Matt "Shaggy" Jones. Can't wait to see who he'll be next week... probably David Carr.

AustinJB
01-25-2006, 12:31 AM
Let's not forget that one of the worsts defenses in the NCAA made VY look/play less than spectacular. He didn't look like the second coming against A&M...

This is sooooo hypocritical. People keep saying all VY did in college was run (which is a wrong misconception BTW.) Yet when he didn't run, or wasn't able to, he gets grief about it.

No, he didn't look like he normally did when he played A&M, but he did throw for 281 yds and 4 TDs and lead the team on seven total TD drives. OMG, what a HORRIBLE game! Pleeez!:brickwall

kbourda
01-25-2006, 12:54 AM
[QUOTE=Apoch] My point is that comments like these create over-compensation and misconceptions concerning true racial problems and are a classless way to lead a discussion. :thumbdown[QUOTE]

To TreWardTxn's defense (born from the Tre and very proud BTW)I think you are missing his point. When people make comments like Matt Jones being better than VY and factoring in the "Academic Honor Roll in College" card, it kinda makes you wonder if others share his views. By no means do I believe he is making it a "racial" (btw there are racist people in this world wether people choose to believe it or not) issue. By either party.

kbourda
01-25-2006, 01:01 AM
Answer me this:
Did Vince Young have a better O-line? Yes
Did Vince Young have a better running back? Yes
Did Vince Young have better recievers? Yes
Did Vince Young have a better Tight end? Yes
Did Vince Young have a better Defense behind him? Yes
Did Vince Young face as many good teams as Matt Jones? No
Ohio State and USC were awesome teams but VY did not face as many good teams as Matt Jones faced in 2004. Jones played against...Alabama, Texas, Florida, Auburn, Georgia, South Carolina, & LSU.

Is Matt Jones faster than Vince Young? Yes
Saying Matt Jones is just fast and not a good runner is crazy talk. Matt Jones has proved you wrong in the NFL this year(not against college teams)(Also, They said that about Jerome Mathis too.) Matt Jones averages more yards per run than Vince Young. What does that say.
Is Matt Jones Taller than Vince Young? Yes
Is Matt Jones Bigger than Vince Young? Yes
Is Matt Jones a better athelete than Vince Young? Probably - stand out in multiple sports. Could have played in the NBA too.

Would I take Matt Jones over Vince Young in the draft? No way in Hell. Vince Young is the better QB.
Is Vince Young worth the #1 pick? Not in my opinion.(#3 pick yes)

The whole point of my post is.......
Vince Young is not some freaky "once in a lifetime athelete", as a previous poster mentioned. Matt Jones is just one example.

I am not trying to say Matt Jones is a better QB because I don't believe that. But the argument could be made.


Not a once in a lifetime athlete? When did passing for 3,000 and rushing for a 1,000 in a season become commonplace? My friend, NO PLAYER, NONE, has ever accomplished that feat. The NCAA has been around for a hot minute. I've seen great college players come and go. Answer me this:

WHY HASN'T THIS FEAT BEEN DONE BEFORE?

kbourda
01-25-2006, 01:05 AM
:yahoo: Interesting post. A few points.

VY put up fatter stats even though he was out of most games by the fourth quarter and the passing game was shut down.

As for his receivers, a lot of people thought that VY would struggle in 2005 because his best receivers left and he was going to be playing with a relatively inexperienced receiver corp. And he won with them against Ohio State, early in the season, on the road at night.

From a statistical standpoint, Matt Jones and Vince Young in their last year of college aren't even close:

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Matt Jones (last college season), Drafted 21st (round 1) 6'6" 242 lbs

2073 passing yards
57.2 completion percentage
264 attempts for 151 completions, 7.9 av yards per attempt
15 passing TDs with 12 INTs
83 rushes for 622 yards, 7.5 av yards per attempt, 6 rushing TDs


The reason why people marvel about VY's freaky abilities is that he is such an athlete but has the body and ability of a QB. And the guy seems to do things so effortlessly. It is a skill set that is hard to compare to anyone else. I've been trying to find valid comparisons and always fall short.




I don't care where anyone played--if someone has VY's stats, plays like him, plays at a high level against top competition, well they could be from the planet NoWayHeJustDidThat! and I'd still want to draft him #1.

And I guess if VY played for a lesser program, he would have had bigger fatter stats because they would have needed him more--less giving it to the running backs when they were way ahead, and less getting him out of the game in the 3rd or 4th quarter.

Woulda coulda shoulda is a weird deal--I can see the arguments for Bush or trading down but taking VY as the legit first pick is also a rational position.

Texans Chick, I like your style. I woman with substance on the knowledge of football. Can your knowledge be cloned so I can transfer it to my wife?:yahoo:

LBC_Justin
01-25-2006, 01:34 AM
If anyone wants to know why some people think there are "racial" overtones to this discussion about whether the Texans should keep Carr or draft Vince Young, then look no further. No player, black or white, has EVER had their GPA called into question, but because we are talking about a "running" (i.e. Black) QB, this suddenly becomes a topic of interest. By calling Matt Jones "smarter" it implies Young is "dumber", although he handled academic life (while playing an intense collegiate sport) at a top rated institution most people in the state would love to get into. Because he is black, suddenly his play on the field, like great decisions with the football, take a backseat to how well he performed in the classroom, which I'm sure most agree is totally irrelevant. Obviously, not everyone feels the same way as the quoted poster, but if one person says it, thousands more are thinking it...

All I'm saying is, if anyone has ever heard a White QBs grades called into question, then let me know...

And as far as Matt Jones goes...NFL scouts don't care about the talent you played against in college if you can go to the combine and through the ball through hoops and place deep outs on a frozen rope. Big Ben went to Miami Ohio; if you can play, they will find you. Jones is a freaky athlete, but not the thrower, decision maker, or leader Young is, making him less complete at QB and more apt for the wideout position...Ummmm...it is the QB postion. Being smart is kind of important.....see Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Warren Moon (oops he's black, nevermind), Joe Montana, & Steve Young. All very smart guys.

Making this a RACIAL ISSUE is the just stupid. I love Vince Young. I will buy his jersey the day it is available if we draft him. But I don't think we need a QB, in fact no one on these forums really feels we need a QB or we would have HUGE Vince Young vs Matt Leinart threads, since just about every scout in the NFL has Leinart rated higher.

I think the best move is picking Reggie Bush, or trading down and getting D'Brick, M. William, AJ Hawk or Vernon Davis. (BTW since your counting 4 out of 5 of the guys I want are Black, oh and I would like us to get Jerry Gray as our Defensive Coordinator, he is black too and would be in a position where he needs to be smart.)

Pulling the race card makes me want to puke on my keyboard and is a cheap low blow.

I WANT TO WIN!!!!!!!

I don't care about race, school, or shoesize, if the picks help us become a winner, I am fine with it.

I don't care what color they are as long as the bleed battle red, sweat liberty white and play until they are steel blue in the face.

LBC_Justin
01-25-2006, 01:59 AM
Who ever talks about it outside the draft? Has anyone on this board ever posted anything about a player calling their grades into question? I wasn't talking about the combine. Those people get so far into those dudes lives they know what whether sit or stand at the toilet in the morning. I was talking about laymen, like us...You can act like its a stupid topic, but then you just ignoring the facts. If people think it doesn't matter, then why did dude post that up there? He didn't say 'Matt Jones wrecked the NFL combine aptitude test', he said he made the Honor roll. So all of sudden, it just so happens that grades are an issue when there's a chance a black guy may come QB this team?
Back off Malcom X. I only mentioned it because it seemed like the NFL thought it was an important thing to mention in his NFL.com Player profile. (If I knew his wonderlic score I would have put that on there. We probably won't know Vince Young's wonderlic score because he probably isn't going to take the test, in my opinion this makes him an even bigger risk/question mark.)

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2005/jones_matt
NFL.com - "While Jones thrilled Razorback football fans the last four years with his impressive play, he also played basketball for Arkansas. Continuing to impress at every turn, Jones also excelled in the classroom, earning Academic Honor Roll accolades during his time at Arkansas."

Vince Young might be a genius for all I know.

Let me enlighten you to my motives before you brand me a KKK member. I put it on there because the following elements are very important for determining who is worth being picked really high.

Height
Weight
Speed
Agility
Vertical Jump
Strength
Character
Durability
Skill/Talent

They try to determine all of these at the combine by measuring, weighing, timing runs, timing cone drills, measuring jumps, lifting weights, doing interviews, poking/proding/x-raying/examining the players bodies, having them perform their football task such as throwing, catching etc.

LBC_Justin
01-25-2006, 02:45 AM
This is ridiculous as many others have already pointed out. Matt Jones is NOT just one example; it is a horrible example.

VY definitely IS a "once in a lifetime athlete" at the QB position. Matt Jones played QB w/ similar physical attributes, but not even close to the intangibles at the QB position, not to mention his passing ability compared to VYs.I don't think you realize the magnitude of what you are saying.
- A life time is about 80 years.
- So you are saying that that he will be the best or 2nd best QB we are going to see untill the year 2080. Many will argue he isn't as good of an athlete as Mike Vick...ok ok ok, I know Vick can't throw the ball to save his life but we are talking about "athlete" at the QB position, not the best QB overall right? If we are talking about best overall QB is he better than Peyton, Brady and the rest of the current NFL elite QBs? Is he more of a winner than Brady or Big Ben? Many people who make their living as NFL scouts will tell you he isn't even the best QB in this draft. Isn't Matt Leinart a leader of men and a winner too? Do we want the best athlete or the best QB? Big Ben doesn't strike me as the best athlete but he is a hell of a QB.

Not a once in a lifetime athlete? When did passing for 3,000 and rushing for a 1,000 in a season become commonplace? My friend, NO PLAYER, NONE, has ever accomplished that feat. The NCAA has been around for a hot minute. I've seen great college players come and go. Answer me this:

WHY HASN'T THIS FEAT BEEN DONE BEFORE?
Very simple. This is an easy one to answer.

This might have something to do with it.
- the first 40 years of College football there was no such thing as the forward pass. (that made it pretty hard)
- It wasn't until the 60's, some even say the 70's until the forward pass was a dominate weapon. So that is the first 100 years of football.
- The "dual threat" QB wasn't really seen until Randall Cunningham. In the 90's you could count the TOTAL number of true "dual threat" QB's on your hand. These last few years you have seen the "birth" of the dual threat QB.

Other than Steve Young(most don't consider him a "dual threat", but i do.) no extremely mobile QB has won the big game. So I leave you with this question..."WHY HASN'T THIS FEAT BEEN DONE BEFORE?"



Again I love Vince Young, I am a Longhorn, i went to the Rosebowl....but for the love of god....STOP with the "greatest of all time stuff" and the "once in a lifetime athlete" crap. ENOUGH. <--That is my ONLY POINT here. I know he is great, I know he is going to be good in the NFL. But calling him the greatest of all time before he takes a single NFL snap takes away all credibility. (I know as much as anyone that the Longhorns couldn't win the big game and along comes Vince. I know the story. I have shed the tears when OU rips our dreams away from us. I fully appreciate Vince for all he has done for the Horns. Hook'em.)

AustinJB
01-25-2006, 03:04 AM
I don't think you realize the magnitude of what you are saying.
- A life time is about 80 years.
- So you are saying that that he will be the best or 2nd best QB we are going to see untill the year 2080. Many will argue he isn't as good of an athlete as Mike Vick...ok ok ok, I know Vick can't throw the ball to save his life but we are talking about "athlete" at the QB position, not the best QB overall right? If we are talking about best overall QB is he better than Peyton, Brady and the rest of the current NFL elite QBs? Is he more of a winner than Brady or Big Ben? Many people who make their living as NFL scouts will tell you he isn't even the best QB in this draft. Isn't Matt Leinart a leader of men and a winner too? Do we want the best athlete or the best QB? Big Ben doesn't strike me as the best athlete but he is a hell of a QB.


Very simple. This is an easy one to answer.

This might have something to do with it.
- the first 40 years of College football there was no such thing as the forward pass. (that made it pretty hard)
- It wasn't until the 60's, some even say the 70's until the forward pass was a dominate weapon. So that is the first 100 years of football.
- The "dual threat" QB wasn't really seen until Randall Cunningham. In the 90's you could count the TOTAL number of true "dual threat" QB's on your hand. These last few years you have seen the "birth" of the dual threat QB.

Other than Steve Young no extremely mobile QB has won the big game. So I leave you with this question..."WHY HASN'T THIS FEAT BEEN DONE BEFORE?"



Again I love Vince Young, I am a Longhorn, i went to the Rosebowl....but for the love of god....STOP with the "greatest of all time stuff" and the "once in a lifetime athlete" crap. ENOUGH. <--That is my ONLY POINT here. I know he is great, I know he is going to be good in the NFL. But calling him the greatest of all time before he takes a single NFL snap takes away all credibility. (I know as much as anyone that the Longhorns couldn't win the big game and along comes Vince. I know the story. I have shed the tears when OU rips our dreams away from us. I fully appreciate Vince for all he has done for the Horns. Hook'em.)

What I am saying is that there has never been someone like him before to play the QB position. I'm not saying he is the greatest of all time...yet. I think he does have the potential, desire, and work ethic. I'm not necessarily EXPECTING that, but it's possible.

As far as the best athlete vs. the best QB....this is what I don't think some people are understanding. I do think VY is the best QB in this draft. This is the first time that someone that has VY's passing ability also has athletic ability comparable to Vick, Cunningham, etc. He seems to be the best dual-threat QB to date. Not saying that the other QBs in this draft suck, but I think he is the best.

Does Leinart have a more refined passing ability? Yes. Probably b/c that is all he has had to rely on, so he's been working on only that for a long time. We all know that VY has just recently become a better passer b/c he was always able to rely upon his athletic ability to get him out of trouble. But the fact is, that he has improved that and there is no reason to doubt that he will continue to at the next level (especially since most of his improvement was by his own doing in the offseason.)

Texans_Chick
01-25-2006, 07:11 AM
Here's the difference between M. Jones, M. Jones, M. Jones (some of you may or may not get that) and VY. VY played in a weak-*** Big 12. M. Jones, played in the extremely tough SEC. The best record behind Texas was 6-2 OK and TT. Woopty Friggin Doo. Now, the competition in the SEC...let me think...Auburn, LSU, Florida, Geogria, 'Bama (but I don't think 'Bama was that good, couldn't find the stadings from the year in which M. Jones graduated). The SEC, in comparison to the Big 12, is light years ahead of it. The SEC constantly has the better talent, better competition, better recruits, just overrall better. That's why it is so rare for SEC teams to go undefeated. Texas played a tough game against ... other than Thee Ohio St.? Word.

LOL.

This is why the only SEC team in a BCS bowl, Georgia lost to West Virginia in the freaking Georgia Dome. Word. :)

Teams in the SEC beat each other up, and the same happens in the Big 12. The argument you make might have relevance if Texas played in a really goofy conference but it doesn't. And it doesn't explain the difference in VY and Jones' stats.

Texas beat two teams that ended up in the Top 5, and 4 teams total in the top 25. Who else did you want them to defeat this year--Chuck Norris???? :superman:

chuckm
01-25-2006, 07:55 AM
This is why the only SEC team in a BCS bowl, Georgia lost to West Virginia in the freaking Georgia Dome. Word. :)


I'm indifferent to the VY-MJones argument but I really did enjoy watching TTech find out the difference between defense in the Pac10 (Cal in 2004) and the SEC (Alabama, last year) .... it's not nearly as much fun passing 70 times a game when the defense is just as fast as you are ...

Texans_Chick
01-25-2006, 08:27 AM
I don't think you realize the magnitude of what you are saying.
- A life time is about 80 years.
- So you are saying that that he will be the best or 2nd best QB we are going to see untill the year 2080. Many will argue he isn't as good of an athlete as Mike Vick...ok ok ok, I know Vick can't throw the ball to save his life but we are talking about "athlete" at the QB position, not the best QB overall right? .....snip......

Again I love Vince Young, I am a Longhorn, i went to the Rosebowl....but for the love of god....STOP with the "greatest of all time stuff" and the "once in a lifetime athlete" crap. ENOUGH. <--That is my ONLY POINT here. I know he is great, I know he is going to be good in the NFL. But calling him the greatest of all time before he takes a single NFL snap takes away all credibility. (I know as much as anyone that the Longhorns couldn't win the big game and along comes Vince. I know the story. I have shed the tears when OU rips our dreams away from us. I fully appreciate Vince for all he has done for the Horns. Hook'em.)

First of all, I think people are arguing past each other. We are talking about the potential to be the best QB, not just athlete playing QB.

I think posters do know the magitude of what they are saying.

When draft sites are saying this sorta stuff: Has as much potential as any player the draft has ever seen...Any team selecting him will be making a huge gamble on greatness with a very high risk / reward factor...Protégé of Steve McNair, who has been like a father figure to him since his sophomore year in high school...More advanced than Michael Vick was coming out of college and could be a transcendent star who revolutionizes the position.

Yeah, that is kinda crazy. But who is to say it isn't possible? Whether you are happy or unhappy or undecided with Carr, if you are given the opportunity to draft someone who has already played well at every lower level, and has the potential to be yes, a once in a lifetime player, it has to make you consider drafting such a player.

(The same statement applies to Bush if you really think he could be that sort of player too.)

Just because you want people on the message board to stop talking about the best quarterback ever stuff, or maybe you don't believe it will happen, it won't stop the rest of the world speculating about the same stuff.

If you have it totally within your control to get a player that "revolutionizes the position," do you do it? It is a facinating question that is part of the reason that "Most users ever online was 473, 2 Days Ago at 07:22 PM."

And no wonder McNair keeps stating that it is Kubiak's football decision, even tho the media says it is McNair's decision. Who wants to be responsible for this one if they get it wrong??? lol.

:texflag:

Texans_Chick
01-25-2006, 08:37 AM
Texans Chick, I like your style. I woman with substance on the knowledge of football. Can your knowledge be cloned so I can transfer it to my wife?:yahoo:

Aw, thanks.

Funny you say that, because my husband thinks my sports knowledge is weird. I am thankful that he is secure in himself because it might be hard to be married to someone that knows more sports than your ownself. (He is a better golfer than me though). :)

Actually, you might find that if your wife knew as much about sports as you did, she might be more of a buddy than your wife. I have never even gone on a date with someone who knows sports as well as I do, because most guys I know who know sports that well, end up being just one of my buddies and not a date. :cool:

Thanks again for the kind thoughts, but cloning my brain I am guessing would be against various federal regulations, and for good reason.:redtowel:

Buffi2
01-25-2006, 09:02 AM
Who wants to be responsible for this one if they get it wrong??? lol.

Certainly not I!

Going off the deep end isn't going to prove anyone's point - nor are the over the top statements made by many on this board. If anything, it further entrenches each person in their own preferences. At this point, IMO, it is time to sit back, take a deep breath and return to logical, Texans first - college loyalty second sanity.

I am not even going to pretend I know what is best for the Texans, but I do know that (and goodness knows this has been said more times than I can count) one person is not going to change the face of the Texans to a SB champion.

I only have one great desire and that is that the Texans win more games than they lose. Not 10 years from now; but sooner rather than later.. I'm not getting any younger and would like to be vertical when this happens. :) Whomever can be drafted to help us do that is fine with me - although I must say I lean towards D'Brickashaw - but I really don't care. Until proven incorrect in this hope, I am going to have faith that Kubiak/McNair will manage to make the right choices in this crapshoot they call a draft....and that Casserly doesn't have much of a say in the matter. Go Texans!:redtowel:

Bullpen Drew
01-25-2006, 09:39 AM
I remember when I was an Oilers fan....

I miss the days when I complained!

I can honestly say that I have been with the team since day 1. I bought the PSL's when they went on sale in 2002. I have been in the Bullpen rooting for my team. I pay for my tickets and express myself however I want. I am just happy to have a team to call my own. Last time I complained or cried my team left town! I am not taking this one for granted! I am here through thick and thin, so if we get Bush or Young or whoever else, I am there. I will never lose my seats! I love my team! Texans can count on me! (I have to, I got a Texans Tattoo!)

chall8
01-25-2006, 09:54 AM
Agree with the premise of your post regarding fans, but you incorrectly assume that anyone who wants VY must be either a Longhorn or a bad fan.

If VY had just led Montana State to the national championship then I'd still be saying to take VY (or trade the pick), simply because with every shred of my being I don't believe David Carr can or will ever lead this team to a Super Bowl, regardless of coaching or what players are around him.

And by the way, it doesn't make me any less of a Texans fan for feeling that way. If David Carr trots out there next year as QB then I'll be the first to hope he does well because Houston is my team. I just don't think he's our long term solution.

What's humorous to me are the Texans fans who say that if we draft VY then we're essentially "starting over". Guess what? We were 2-14 last year. We're starting over anyway, and the only way things can go is up!

Peace.

bigTEXan8
01-25-2006, 10:51 AM
LOL.

This is why the only SEC team in a BCS bowl, Georgia lost to West Virginia in the freaking Georgia Dome. Word. :)

Teams in the SEC beat each other up, and the same happens in the Big 12. The argument you make might have relevance if Texas played in a really goofy conference but it doesn't. And it doesn't explain the difference in VY and Jones' stats.

Texas beat two teams that ended up in the Top 5, and 4 teams total in the top 25. Who else did you want them to defeat this year--Chuck Norris???? :superman:

Beating up on teams like Baylor, Colorado (X2), LA Laffyette, and Rice does not impress me. Beating ****** teams is overrated.

I hope I wasn't misunderstood, having people think that I think M. Jones is better than VY. I think VY is a much better athlete, and for the most part, a better QB than Jones. Jones made the right decision switching to WR. I just think that, for me at least, it's hard to be impressed with what VY did against lousy teams. The only impressive win all year, besides the Nat'l Championship was Thee Ohio St. They beat three ranked teams all year; 4 - Thee Ohio St., 10 - Texas Tech, 1 - USC. That's according to http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=&url_article_id=1874&change_well_id=2. So, again I say, woopty friggin' doo.

Now, I'll admit, I'm not a fan of the Big 12 football. My favorite teams in college FB are Fresno State (big suprise there, but I've been going to all home games since I was 5), Georgia, & Auburn, and Arvy-Nvy. I do like UT basketball though, big TJ Ford fan.

maisis00
04-05-2006, 01:26 PM
I hardly ever watch NFL these days only NCAA for the most part. So you can say what you want but I would drive from Austin to Houston for every Texans home game just to watch Vince Young play in person again. And I would be willing to bet you would have tens of thousands of Texas Longhorn fans that would echo that very same response. After Saturday's round of college football you would see the great migration from Austin to Houston. :)

CoastalTexan
04-05-2006, 01:30 PM
not again.

jerek
04-05-2006, 01:31 PM
I would drive from Houston to Austin (or Dallas, whichever) just to see the Horns beat a legitimate OU team.

I know it's been forever since your football team didn't choke away the big one prior to this year's Rose Bowl, but let's not pretend that "tens of thousands" of Austinites would drive here from wherever to see Vince Young play.

hollywood_texan
04-05-2006, 01:38 PM
Does anyone here really think that the team really cares what a handful of fans think should be done? Do you think the team really worries about "stealing" fans from the Cowboys by bringing in a Longhorn? Honestly, if it were that easy to get those fans, I doubt the team would want them. The Texans will do what they feel is best for the long term success of the franchise. Considering they have men who have spent their entire lives evaluating players, coaching players, and the Texans fans are comprised of a bunch of people that maybe played some in High School or college I think they will probably stick with the guys getting paid to make the decisions.

If the Texans start winning, fans will fill the seats. It won't matter if Young goes on to become the greatest ever. One man doesn't make a team. He could be the next Dan Marino and never see a ring. I'd rather have a team in the playoffs/Super Bowl each year than the next Dan Marino. That's not to say Bush is the next coming of Sanders or Sayers or whoever. I think the most important thing to get fans is to win.

I see people being called losers because they refuse to stop following the Texans if the team passes on Young. I must disagree. I fail to see what that will accomplish. Fans can be disenchanted, they can dislike moves a team makes, but on a grand scale fans don't have much say. Granted, fans can refuse to go to games as they did last season and that was a big reason Capers lost his job. There is a big difference between accepting failure and standing by the team. If I had a say in the matter it might be different, but there are only a few things I can do as a fan to show my displeasure.

Giving up game tickets...
I've paid good money for tickets, I love the game, so why would I avoid going? I don't have the income to just not use my seats and I think it's absurd to skip going to a game that you've paid money for because you are upset with the team. The team has already got the money so that won't hurt them too much.

Season Tickets...
I could not renew my tickets. I have seats in the Southern End Zone (shady side) 5 rows from the field, though. I've had these seats since they first went on sale and been to every game since preseason game 1 against the Dolphins. I'm not going to lose those seats to make a point. It will be next to impossible to get those back in a few years when they start winning.

Other costs...
I can go to the games and not buy merchandise or concessions. I don't really do much of this anyways. It's costly and since I tailgate I don't need food in the stadium. This gets impacted mostly when the stadium is half empty so I guess not showing up can do some damage. Still, from me, they gain nothing here.

Stop rooting altogether...
There have been scientific studies, but no proof that rooting actually influences a game one way or another. Making loud noise during certain times can disrupt a team, but you can do that without rooting. I mean come on, if rooting actually made a difference the Sacramento Kings would have multiple NBA Championships. Those fans are incredible even when the team is awful.

Pick a new team...
How do you go about picking a new team anyways? Do you use spreadsheets? Do you make a list of pros and cons? I can understand people watching the Titans or Cowboys because of their history. I can understand people rooting for a team from their home area. I still have a soft spot for the Broncos after growing up in Colorado. I live in Houston now, though, so that's the team for me.

Threaten to jump off a roof...
While this might get on the news, I don't think McNair would let me make the decisions based on this. He might say he will and then once I'm in a Psych Hospital they'd do what they were going to do anyways.

I realize this is rambling. It's late and I can't sleep. Kobe just dropped 81 on the Raptors and I have to be up for work in 4 hours.

I do think the team logo is designed to attract Longhorn fans and compete for the Cowboy fan base.

Our mascot is a bull, similar to a Longhorns. Our helmet has the horns on it, similar to the Longhorns. And then there is the Texas star, similar to the Cowboys star.

Maybe these are just coincindences, but that is how I viewed it when I first saw them unviel the uniforms.

Also, the team name is the Texans. Texans or Texas Longhorns, there are some big similarities here.

I think from the beginning they wanted to attract Texas Longhorn and Dallas Cowboy fans, rooting for these teams are not mutually exclusive all the time.

Vinny
04-05-2006, 01:41 PM
If you read a lot of these threads, you will see a handful of people "threatening" to do exactly that. I say "threaten" because they talk about it as if we are anyone in the Texans front office should be intimidated or impressed by it: this isn't a surprise, we/they are not.

A minority, sure, but a minority that I was addressing with that statement.they are a tiny minority at that. We see a ton of anonymous new posters slinging these "threats" around but you sure don't see many "established" (I use that term with a grain but we can only establish a person as a fan if we see them post) fans making these silly threats. I’ve been watching this board for five years or so and these guys come and go. As for myself, I still hope we draft Vince Young (but don’t think we will) but I’m not new to our little party and I said I thought he would be a superstar QB in the NFL before he became a national NFL first-round QB prospect.

DRAMA
04-05-2006, 01:49 PM
I can't wait for Bush to get here...

My bad...wrong thread! :)

Mr. White
04-05-2006, 01:51 PM
I would drive from Austin to Houston for every Texans home game just to watch Vince Young play in person again.

You'll be able to see him play in Houston once a year after the Titans pick him up....not ideal, but not too bad.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
04-05-2006, 02:41 PM
You'll be able to see him play in Houston once a year after the Titans pick him up....not ideal, but not too bad.


Titans are not going to go after Young, They are really leaning into Leinart from USC. I think Young will go around the 7-10 pick and I believe it is probably going to be the RAIDERS that claim that guy.

Bearfan Blue and Orange
04-05-2006, 02:42 PM
Titans are not going to go after Young, They are really leaning into Leinart from USC. I think Young will go around the 7-10 pick and I believe it is probably going to be the RAIDERS that claim that guy.
Won't that be ironic? Texas Young playing in Cali and USC Bush Playing in Texas... :yahoo:

el toro
04-05-2006, 02:43 PM
Titans are not going to go after Young, They are really leaning into Leinart from USC. I think Young will go around the 7-10 pick and I believe it is probably going to be the RAIDERS that claim that guy.


...where he can settle into the overrated prospects dustbin of NFL history.

GoneTexan
04-05-2006, 03:14 PM
Titans are not going to go after Young, They are really leaning into Leinart from USC. I think Young will go around the 7-10 pick and I believe it is probably going to be the RAIDERS that claim that guy.


This exact scenario if what I hope will happen!yahoo:

This way, I will see my TEXANS more because of the soon to be Great President REGGIE and VY in two years playing the Chargers!

Lets go TEXANS! :redtowel:

Here's to BUSH in 2006 Draft...:party: