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View Full Version : Say no to our Jake Plummer clone in Houston


TexansFight
01-22-2006, 05:40 PM
If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl. Jake Plummer still makes stupid rookie mistakes the same as David Carr. He has a 3/4 throwing motion like our guy. You guys would rather have that type of QB than VY. It shows you that our fans are content with losing and losers. David Carr is a loser. Get rid of him.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 05:49 PM
If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl. Jake Plummer still makes stupid rookie mistakes the same as David Carr. He has a 3/4 throwing motion like our guy. You guys would rather have that type of QB than VY. It shows you that our fans are content with losing and losers. David Carr is a loser. Get rid of him.

I'm not going to bash Carr today but I have never been a Plummer fan and what I am seeing now does not impress me. He has gotten really lucky on some bad throws that his receivers bailed him out on. The reason they are in the hole to have to comeback is some of his mistakes. You will lose some big games with a guy like that.

JDizzle
01-22-2006, 05:51 PM
Who do you suggest be our QB next season, then? Oh, wait ....

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 05:52 PM
If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl. Jake Plummer still makes stupid rookie mistakes the same as David Carr. He has a 3/4 throwing motion like our guy. You guys would rather have that type of QB than VY. It shows you that our fans are content with losing and losers. David Carr is a loser. Get rid of him.The only thing around here that can be associated with a "loser" is posts like this. First of all Carr and Plummer, two completely different men, two completely different QBs, playing in two completely different systems. I love it how people try to say "Player A" can't do this, because "Player B" failed at it. That argument is the most weak and tiresome in all of sports.

I also find it funny how you say you wouldn't want a qb that won't lose you games and just manages the game but is not a star.

QBs that fit that mold:
Ben Rothlisburger (how ever you spell his name)
Jake Delhome
Tom Brady

Texans86
01-22-2006, 05:52 PM
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to take a shot a Carr based on Plummer's performance today. I'm actually surprised it took to get to the 4th quarter.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 05:55 PM
The only thing around here that can be associated with a "loser" is posts like this. First of all Carr and Plummer, two completely different men, two completely different QBs, playing in two completely different systems. I love it how people try to say "Player A" can't do this, because "Player B" failed at it. That argument is the most weak and tiresome in all of sports.

I also find it funny how you say you wouldn't want a qb that won't lose you games and just manages the game but is not a star.

QBs that fit that mold:
Ben Rothlisburger (how ever you spell his name)
Jake Delhome
Tom Brady

I agree with the top part of your post, comparisons in systems is not fair. But I will disagree on guys who only manage games being the guys you listed. Brady was throwing for 300 yard games this year and was their whole offense for many games this year with a hurt backfield. Delhomme, same thing with Steve Smith. Reothlisberger did alot of dunk passing last year but is much more capable as this game is showing.

Wolf
01-22-2006, 05:56 PM
a jake plummer is playing in the AFC championship game... I am sure if we were playing in the AFC championship game with Carr...
we wouldn't be talking about not taking a David Carr clone
:confused:

Grid
01-22-2006, 05:57 PM
boy.. we have a penchant towards judging everything on game's performance in this fanbase.

whiskeyrbl
01-22-2006, 05:58 PM
Agreed wolf,i was just fixin to say that but since you did i'll say this.Its time to get off your knees and zip up VY's pants

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 05:59 PM
I agree with the top part of your post, comparisons in systems is not fair. But I will disagree on guys who only manage games being the guys you listed. Brady was throwing for 300 yard games this year and was their whole offense for many games this year with a hurt backfield. Delhomme, same thing with Steve Smith. Reothlisberger did alot of dunk passing last year but is much more capable as this game is showing.

Tom Brady had to step up his game this year due to all the injuries, but during the superbowl runs he managed games.

Before the playoffs Ben was just asked to manage games. (he only threw like 18 passes a game) Even in the playoffs as soon as the steelers jump out to a lead he just manages the game.

Delhome had a great game against the Bears and as soon as Foster went down he had to take a bigger role, but again he is a game manager

run-david-run
01-22-2006, 05:59 PM
How many INT's does Plummer average a season over his career? How many does Carr? That differential right there is enough to show that Carr will not be Plummer clone, he will be much better.

Napa Auto Parts
01-22-2006, 06:05 PM
Im sorry but i think this thread is waste We have seen david For 4 years David will never be half the QB Jake Plummer is and that is not saying much:stirpot:


Oh and jake had alot of int's in arizona because he wasnt affraid trying to win unlike other QB's that i will not mentioned that would take a sack instead of trying to win the game. for the sake of how good the stat will look:superman:

ArlingtonTexan
01-22-2006, 06:05 PM
Well, I knew this thread was coming. :hairpull:

PapaL
01-22-2006, 06:06 PM
How many INT's does Plummer average a season over his career? How many does Carr? That differential right there is enough to show that Carr will not be Plummer clone, he will be much better.

If your going to use that comparision, how many passes do each of them average? I'm willing to bet that the guy that throws less passes also throws less INTs.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 06:07 PM
Tom Brady had to step up his game this year due to all the injuries, but during the superbowl runs he managed games.

Before the playoffs Ben was just asked to manage games. (he only threw like 18 passes a game) Even in the playoffs as soon as the steelers jump out to a lead he just manages the game.

Delhome had a great game against the Bears and as soon as Foster went down he had to take a bigger role, but again he is a game manager

I just think those three are much more big time game players compared to many we see. Brady with his MVP type years seemed to do more than manage games. The coaches trust him. Same with Delhomme, when they made the SB he was throwing it deep. Roethlisberger I can see that, as I said but he has stepped out of that shadow. I look at the "manage the game" type guy though as someone the coach doesn't trust. I think the coaches have full faith in all of those guys taking over.

As for the original post. Unfair comparison in my book so I can see where people are frustrated. But considering that most of the board was talking last week that Kubiak would make Carr like Plummer, you knew it was coming..lol

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 06:09 PM
Im sorry but i think this thread is waste We have seen david For 4 years David will never be half the QB Jake Plummer is and that is not saying much:stirpot:


Oh and jake had alot of int's in arizona because he wasnt affraid trying to win unlike other QB's that i will not mentioned that would take a sack instead of trying to win the game. for the sake of how good the stat will look:superman: Yeah he was really trying to win today, huh, because throwing the ball to the other team is SO much better than just taking a sack and living to fight another day........please.

Could you imagine Plummer playing behind our line, especially if he just throws it up for grabs everytime he feels pressure.

Porky
01-22-2006, 06:10 PM
I also find it funny how you say you wouldn't want a qb that won't lose you games and just manages the game but is not a star.

QBs that fit that mold:
Ben Rothlisburger (how ever you spell his name)
Jake Delhome
Tom Brady

Terrible comparisons, especially Brady and Rothlesburger. Get real.

Napa Auto Parts
01-22-2006, 06:11 PM
Yeah he was really trying to win today, huh, because throwing the ball to the other team is SO much better than just taking a sack and living to fight another day........please.

Could you imagine Plummer playing behind our line, especially if he just throws it up for grabs everytime he feels pressure.


there is no other day in the playoffs and i was reffering to his arizona days:ok: oh better than taking a sack or a Fumble

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 06:17 PM
I just think those three are much more big time game players compared to many we see. Brady with his MVP type years seemed to do more than manage even. The coaches trust him. Same with Delhomme, even when they made the SB. Roethlisberger I can see that, as I said. I look at the "maange the game" type guy though as someone the coach doesn't trust. I think the coaches have full faith in all of those guys taking over.

As for the original post. Unfair comparison in my book so I can see where people are frustrated. But considering that most of the board was talking last week that Kubiak would make Carr like Plummer, you knew it was coming..lol

I don't think because a qb is asked to manage a game it means the coach doesn't trust them or they aren't capable of taking over a game. The three qbs I mentioned are very capable of taking over a game. I think its just the system they play in. If you noticed the three guys I mentioned they all have one thing is common, They are lead by Defensive coaches. Defensive coaches have a run first mentality, preach mistake free football, play a field position game, and believe there defense and running game will win the game. That is why they ask their qbs to manage the game.

Porky
01-22-2006, 06:18 PM
Texansfight gets a zero for style points, but a 9 on substance. It's not as if Plummer and Carr haven't been compared as being similar in many ways before today. I have mentioned many times that Carr reminds me of Plummer more than any other QB. Many of us mentioned here how the Kubiak hiring was good because maybe Carr could become what Plummer has become. I think, and hope that is possible, but we really don't know. I think the million dollar question the Texans have to answer is, can they win with a Plummer clone if they put the right pieces around him, or do they need a serious upgrade. If you look around the league historically, how many Jake Plummer types have put their team in the SB? Sure, if you are the 2000 Ravens and have a shutdown D, maybe so. But, they haven't been back. The examples on the other hand of having a dominant QB taking a team to multiple SB's are endless - Bradshaw, Montana, Brady, Staubach, Aikman, Young, Favre are some that come to mind.

Marcus
01-22-2006, 06:18 PM
boy.. we have a penchant towards judging everything on game's performance in this fanbase.

From what I've been hearing on the radio, and reading on this board lately, if fanbase was biggest factor in how I follow a team . . .

. . . I'd root against the Texans every Sunday.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 06:20 PM
there is no other day in the playoffs and i was reffering to his arizona days:ok: oh better than taking a sack or a Fumble The problem with Plummer is that at times he doesn't play within himself, also it doesn't help that he was going up againt the buzzsaw that is the pittsburgh defense, I think we aren't giving them enough credit, they have played back to back marvelous games.

Napa Auto Parts
01-22-2006, 06:20 PM
Texansfight gets a zero for style points, but a 9 on substance. It's not as if Plummer and Carr haven't been compared as being similar in many ways before today. I have mentioned many times that Carr reminds me of Plummer more than any other QB. Many of us mentioned here how the Kubiak hiring was good because maybe Carr could become what Plummer has become. I think, and hope that is possible, but we really don't know. I think the million dollar question the Texans have to answer is, can they win with a Plummer clone if they put the right pieces around him, or do they need a serious upgrade. If you look around the league historically, how many Jake Plummer types have put their team in the SB? Sure, if you are the 2000 Ravens and have a shutdown D, maybe so. But, they haven't been back. The examples on the other hand of having a dominant QB taking a team to multiple SB's are endless - Bradshaw, Montana, Brady, Staubach, Aikman, Young, Favre are some that come to mind.



Great Post

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 06:21 PM
I don't think because a qb is asked to manage a game it means the coach doesn't trust them or they aren't capable of taking over a game. The three qbs I mentioned are very capable of taking over a game. I think its just the system they play in. If you noticed the three guys I mentioned they all have one thing is common, They are lead by Defensive coaches. Defensive coaches have a run first mentality, preach mistake free football, play a field position game, and believe there defense and running game will win the game. That is why they ask their qbs to manage the game.

I see what you are saying. Good points. I just don't look at those three. I see more of a Trent Dilfer or Kyle Orton(earlier this year) as typical manage, don't lose guys.

Hookem Horns
01-22-2006, 06:30 PM
Plummer didn't even play today did he? Looks like they replaced him with some homeless guy.

Wharton
01-22-2006, 06:41 PM
Great Post

Agreed. Porky is spot on!

If you are trying to win a SB with a quarterback who just manages the game, the talent around him must be far superior to ther opponents. Since most of us agree that we need at least 3 OL, 2 DB, TE, 2 LB, and 1 WR, how long do you think it will take to amass this talent - 2, 3 years.

Also, remember, when the Ravens won the SB, they had very powerful down hill runner who could take over games and finish off opponents. I like DD, but he doesn't have that kind of talent.

Nighthawk
01-22-2006, 06:42 PM
It's not as if Plummer and Carr haven't been compared as being similar in many ways before today. I have mentioned many times that Carr reminds me of Plummer more than any other QB. Many of us mentioned here how the Kubiak hiring was good because maybe Carr could become what Plummer has become. I think, and hope that is possible, but we really don't know. I think the million dollar question the Texans have to answer is, can they win with a Plummer clone if they put the right pieces around him

Pittsburg made Plummer look as bad as Carr today. And the Pittsburg coaches made the Denver coaches look like saps. It's clear from this single game that the Denver schemes, offensive and defensive, are outmoded, readily beatable, insufficient in today's NFL. I only hope that Kubiak understands that you NEED EXTRAORDINARY PLAYERS, and that you have to PLAN TO BEAT POWER as well as finesse.

If he doesn't learn that lesson today the Texans will suffer for the next 4 years.

Wolf
01-22-2006, 06:45 PM
Pittsburg made Plummer look as bad as Carr today. And the Pittsburg coaches made the Denver coaches look like saps. It's clear from this single game that the Denver schemes, offensive and defensive, are outmoded, readily beatable, insufficient in today's NFL. I only hope that Kubiak understands that you NEED EXTRAORDINARY PLAYERS, and that you have to PLAN TO BEAT POWER as well as finesse.

If he doesn't learn that lesson today the Texans will suffer for the next 4 years.


On top of that the Steeler's D made Indy look bad too.

rockabilly
01-22-2006, 06:47 PM
If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl. Jake Plummer still makes stupid rookie mistakes the same as David Carr. He has a 3/4 throwing motion like our guy. You guys would rather have that type of QB than VY. It shows you that our fans are content with losing and losers. David Carr is a loser. Get rid of him.


Oh god. I swear being a Texans fan is so hard when you have to be associated with "fans" like you.

And get off of VY sack already....geez, one game against a 32nd ranked defense and he people start praying to him instead of Jesus.

bigtex77
01-22-2006, 06:53 PM
I just want to know what all of the guys with man-crushes on Vince Christ, I mean, Vince Young would do if he came here and completely flopped. I don't want to imagine the excuses, that would be hilarious!!!!!

aj.
01-22-2006, 06:54 PM
If only Plummer had some talent around him..... oh wait. .... never mind.

Actually Plummer did some things today that Carr can't do - even if he had five pro bowlers in front of him - and that's escape from intense pressure while inside the pocket. Jake pulled some Houdini's several times in the second half. Carr almost always looks for the turf in the same situation.

I was wondering who was going to start it... we should have had an off the board pool.

Texans86
01-22-2006, 06:56 PM
You know what, you're right. Plummer only got them to the AFC championship game. We don't need anyone like that around here. Boo him off the field. That's much more effective. I know no one wants a player to succeed given controversy. Goodness people. He had a bad day against a very strong defense. They were one game away from the Super Bowl. I'll take that from our 2-14 season we had this year. Take things in context please. The Denver Broncos are in that game for a reason, and that reason is that they had a dominant running game and a QB who let his runningbacks stay in the game by not throwing INTs. He made some mistakes, but his team went to the AFC championship game. If Kubiak can take Plummer and get him to lower his mistakes, I think he can do the same for Carr, and we will make it to the playoffs.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 06:58 PM
I don't think everyone who comments on Carr or Plummer is a VY homer. Again, I'm not one that ripped Carr in this thread and I don't think you can compare people in different systems BUT in giving the guy some credit, you knew this was coming due to the fact that many of the "Kubiak keeping Carr" posts had to do with what he did for Plummer. It was only a matter of time.

LBC_Justin
01-22-2006, 06:58 PM
If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl. Jake Plummer still makes stupid rookie mistakes the same as David Carr. He has a 3/4 throwing motion like our guy. You guys would rather have that type of QB than VY. It shows you that our fans are content with losing and losers. David Carr is a loser. Get rid of him.Plummer looked a lot like Peyton Manning, Eli Manning and Tom Brady and all the other QB's who are put under a lot of pressure by a GREAT defenses.

Show me a QB that plays well when they are under constant pressure all day and the other team has a good secondary.

Tulip
01-22-2006, 06:59 PM
I agree with the sentiment of the original post. I don't want a "serviceable" quarterback. I want a great quarterback. A field general. True, there is no one man team - but I want a man who is willing to take the team on his shoulders because he feels like the buck stops with him. I want the next Brett Favre, Joe Montana, John Elway. I know that those QBs don't come around every day, but I don't want to give up the ideal.

If the Texans try to build around David Carr, they are going to have to upgrade far more than just the running back position. This could be a never-ending project.

Wolf
01-22-2006, 06:59 PM
It also helps when Champ had 6 going the other way early in the game and yet it bounced off of him and Ward catches.. If I am not mistaken that was a 10 point swing because the Steelers go a field goal out of it.

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 07:00 PM
If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl. Jake Plummer still makes stupid rookie mistakes the same as David Carr. He has a 3/4 throwing motion like our guy. You guys would rather have that type of QB than VY. It shows you that our fans are content with losing and losers. David Carr is a loser. Get rid of him.

To turn Carr into a Plummer Clone, you're going to have to do some serious DNA splicing. Carr, IMHO ain't nothing like him. I'd say Carr is more of a Tom Brady, Jake Delhomme, type of QB. His mobility is just to get him out of trouble. He's not a playmaker out of the pocket. Once David breaks the pocket, if he can scramble for a first down, he should go for it. but if that ain't there, he needs to throw it away. He's not the kind of QB who should try to buy time, and make a big play.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 07:03 PM
Plummer looked a lot like Peyton Manning, Eli Manning and Tom Brady and all the other QB's who are put under a lot of pressure by a GREAT defenses.

Show me a QB that plays well when they are under constant pressure all day and the other team has a good secondary.

I don't think Plummer's problems today were all pressure induced. He made many throws on his own that went awry and made some very bad decisions that did not get him in trouble but that were tossing it up for grabs nonetheless.

Wolf
01-22-2006, 07:05 PM
. He has a 3/4 throwing motion like our guy. You guys would rather have that type of QB than VY.


you lost all credibility right there talking about the 3/4 motion that Carr has.. What is vince's?? 3/5??

Wolf
01-22-2006, 07:08 PM
I don't think Plummer's problems today were all pressure induced. He made many throws on his own that went awry and made some very bad decisions that did not get him in trouble but that were tossing it up for grabs nonetheless.


Exactly ...Kubiak needs to get Carr to play within himself.. plummer got impatient and was looking for the 14 point or the play to tie the game up..

Of couse the Steelers weren't worried about the run anymore.. they smelled blood and just went after the QB

bigtex77
01-22-2006, 07:10 PM
you lost all credibility right there talking about the 3/4 motion that Carr has.. What is vince's?? 3/5??

Yeah, but Vince could have single-handedly beaten the Steelers. :rolleyes:

rmartin65
01-22-2006, 07:12 PM
Plummer made the Pro Bowl. How is that bad? The Steelers have a very good defense.

Kimmy
01-22-2006, 07:12 PM
If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl. Jake Plummer still makes stupid rookie mistakes the same as David Carr. He has a 3/4 throwing motion like our guy. You guys would rather have that type of QB than VY. It shows you that our fans are content with losing and losers. David Carr is a loser. Get rid of him.


I was wondering how long it would take someone to start this thread ....

Hookem Horns
01-22-2006, 07:18 PM
I just want to know what all of the guys with man-crushes on Vince Christ, I mean, Vince Young would do if he came here and completely flopped. I don't want to imagine the excuses, that would be hilarious!!!!!

I guess about what we have been doing the last 4 years with flopping Carr.

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 07:20 PM
I agree with the top part of your post, comparisons in systems is not fair. But I will disagree on guys who only manage games being the guys you listed. Brady was throwing for 300 yard games this year and was their whole offense for many games this year with a hurt backfield. Delhomme, same thing with Steve Smith. Reothlisberger did alot of dunk passing last year but is much more capable as this game is showing.


I agree with your dis agreement, but I see thes QBs totally different.

First, Carolina is a run oriented system. play action passing, and the QB is only supposed to take what the Defense gives them. But steve Smith really opens up what the defense will give you. It's hard to make a mistake with that guy out there. But Jake, is a game manager, a don't loose the game for us QB. I'm not taking anything away from him, he's trully made a name for himself, and should be compared to the great quarterbacks from years past. But he isn't a Starbuck, Bradshaw, or a Warren Moon. He's a far cry from Trent Dilfer, but plays in a similar system......... Steve Smith just changes everything.

Ben RothlisBerg, is actually a better snake, than Jake the Snake. His play is similar. really.

Tom Brady is in a sweet system, for a qb. Much like Kurt Warner from his ST Louis Rams Super Bowl days. These systems are both different, but they are made for a QB to excell. You couldn't stick any QB in ST Louis, and expect them to succeed, but you could put in any of a certain type. Gunslingers, with quick releases, and the ability to read quick. The plays are drawn up according to certain situations, and designed to free up certain players. With the people they had in St Louis, they were able to dictate not only what coverage the defense would play, but the personnel they put on the field. That was truly an amazing team, and Martz was truly a genius.... but I don't know if he, or anyone could do that again.

Tom Brady is a bit of a Gunslinger, but he's smart too. Not Peyton Manning Smart, but smart. Their plays generally dictate the defense, and their schemes usually beat that defense. Brady isn't really a game manager, he's got to do more, than just not make mistakes.

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 07:27 PM
I don't think because a qb is asked to manage a game it means the coach doesn't trust them or they aren't capable of taking over a game. The three qbs I mentioned are very capable of taking over a game. I think its just the system they play in. If you noticed the three guys I mentioned they all have one thing is common, They are lead by Defensive coaches. Defensive coaches have a run first mentality, preach mistake free football, play a field position game, and believe there defense and running game will win the game. That is why they ask their qbs to manage the game.


Other than those St Louis teams, has there ever been a West Coast Offense, or a Run and Shoot offense to win the Big one, or have long term success??


Football is won on defense, and between the tackles. I totally agree with that.

cap1
01-22-2006, 07:35 PM
Other than those St Louis teams, has there ever been a West Coast Offense, or a Run and Shoot offense to win the Big one, or have long term success??


Football is won on defense, and between the tackles. I totally agree with that.

I might be wrong here, but didn't SF win 5 superbowls with the west coast and didn't GB win one with Farve using the west coast? I am not sure though, but I will try to find it out.

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 07:36 PM
Pittsburg made Plummer look as bad as Carr today. And the Pittsburg coaches made the Denver coaches look like saps. It's clear from this single game that the Denver schemes, offensive and defensive, are outmoded, readily beatable, insufficient in today's NFL. I only hope that Kubiak understands that you NEED EXTRAORDINARY PLAYERS, and that you have to PLAN TO BEAT POWER as well as finesse.

If he doesn't learn that lesson today the Texans will suffer for the next 4 years.

Don't forget, Pittsburg did the same thing to INDY, so it's not just that Denver's scheming and coaching is outmoded/outdated........ Pittsburg wants to win a Superbowl, and sombody told them that defenses win SuperBowls.


That, and I think Kubiak got hooked on Vince Young highlight film.

cap1
01-22-2006, 07:37 PM
Other than those St Louis teams, has there ever been a West Coast Offense, or a Run and Shoot offense to win the Big one, or have long term success??


Football is won on defense, and between the tackles. I totally agree with that.


Check this sight out:

http://www.westcoastoffense.com/

And

http://www.e-sports.com/articles/71/1/Bill-Walsh:-Legacy-of-%22The-Genius%22

It says, "Since Walsh became the head coach of the San Francisco 49ers in 1979, 25 Super Bowls have been played. Of those 25 Super Bowls, Walsh and his disciples have won 10, while 11of the 29 coaches who have participated in that game over that same time span are also linked to him."



To answer your questions.

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 07:40 PM
I just want to know what all of the guys with man-crushes on Vince Christ, I mean, Vince Young would do if he came here and completely flopped. I don't want to imagine the excuses, that would be hilarious!!!!!


If we are still loosing games, and Vince is still making the same mistakes he did his rookie season, I'll admit he flopped.

It'd be nice if the guys hanging on Carr's Knutts would do the same.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 07:43 PM
Other than those St Louis teams, has there ever been a West Coast Offense, or a Run and Shoot offense to win the Big one, or have long term success??


Football is won on defense, and between the tackles. I totally agree with that.San Fransico built a dynasty off of it, Jon Gruden runs it in Tampa and they won a superbowl, Green Bay went to two superbowls won one, and Seattle is on their way to a Superbowl.

Yes football is won with Defense, but just because we have a offensive minded coach doesn't mean we can't have a dominant defense.

This is the LAST time I'm going to post this

Arguably the top 3 Defenses of alltime were led by OFFENSIVE MINDED COACHES:

85 bears
'00 ravens
'02 Bucs

Other than Belichick ALL the superbowls won over the past DECADE were won by OFFENSIVE minded coaches and if you go back throughout the history of the superbowl alot more were won by OFFENSIVE minded coaches.

bakerooskie
01-22-2006, 08:09 PM
What good is defense if you have a team that can't perform on the offensive side of the field, and put points on the board? It's good to be able to stop a team in they're tracks, but you will never get anywhere if you cannot score... Offense is the way to go...

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 08:11 PM
Check this sight out:

http://www.westcoastoffense.com/

And

http://www.e-sports.com/articles/71/1/Bill-Walsh:-Legacy-of-%22The-Genius%22

It says, "Since Walsh became the head coach of the San Francisco 49ers in 1979, 25 Super Bowls have been played. Of those 25 Super Bowls, Walsh and his disciples have won 10, while 11of the 29 coaches who have participated in that game over that same time span are also linked to him."



To answer your questions.


Okay..... when I say WestCoast offense, I mean a true west coast system, with timed plays(the QB throws the ball before the break is made), Short passing games, and a RB like Reggie bush who is better at catching out of the back field, than he is it at carring the ball.

In a West Coast system, you don't care if the RB can handle more than 15 carries a game, because the game plan would not call for the RB to carry 15 times a game.

When SanFran won their superbowls, they had really good RBs didn't they?? Garrison Hurst, Roger Craig, Ricky Waters?? Denver had Terrell Davis... a Running back would not get 2000 yards in one season, in the West coast offense. I can't remember who GB had, but I don't think they were any more west coast than the Dallas Cowboys. St Louis I think was the only true WCO to win the superbowl, every other team may have been using variations, but they weren't WCO.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 08:15 PM
San Fransico built a dynasty off of it, Jon Gruden runs it in Tampa and they won a superbowl, Green Bay went to two superbowls won one, and Seattle is on their way to a Superbowl.

Yes football is won with Defense, but just because we have a offensive minded coach doesn't mean we can't have a dominant defense.

This is the LAST time I'm going to post this

Arguably the top 3 Defenses of alltime were led by OFFENSIVE MINDED COACHES:

85 bears
'00 ravens
'02 Bucs

Other than Belichick ALL the superbowls won over the past DECADE were won by OFFENSIVE minded coaches and if you go back throughout the history of the superbowl alot more were won by OFFENSIVE minded coaches.

I agree in part but it wasn't like the Pats havn't won 3 of the last 4. I wouldn't call Landry, Knoll, Parcells, or even Jimmy Johnson etc offensive guys out and out. I think guys like Cowher, Fox, Dungy, Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis proved that the better team may have had D minded guys this year. But your point is true, any guy can get it done, it is the coordinators and players you surround yourself with.

Wolf
01-22-2006, 08:17 PM
Well FA could speed things up but I figure about 2 years away if we went West coast.. and when we draft that..who knows what kind of defense we would need (if we have one at all)

We still need a TE and #2 WR to go with OL

noone on our team would be mistaken for a Brett Jones,Novachek,sharp..

I truly belive for a team to be sucessful, you have to have a above average TE.. stats will probably show otherwise, but I think TE is a QB's best friend to get out of trouble.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 08:20 PM
I agree in part but it wasn't like the Pats havn't won 3 of the last 4. I wouldn't call Landry, Knoll, Parcells, or even Jimmy Johnson etc offensive guys out and out. I think guys like Cowher, Fox, Dungy, Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis proved that the better team may have had D minded guys this year. But your point is true, any guy can get it done, it is the coordinators and players you surround yourself with. Regardless if you have a offensive or defensive minded coach, it still takes a BALANCED team to win it all (Ravens will be the exception). Even the great Pats superbowls (except for last years) were won on last minute drives by their offense. A balanced team will beat a one demensional team, regardless if its offense or defense anyday.

Wolf
01-22-2006, 08:21 PM
I agree in part but it wasn't like the Pats havn't won 3 of the last 4. I wouldn't call Landry, Knoll, Parcells, or even Jimmy Johnson etc offensive guys out and out. I think guys like Cowher, Fox, Dungy, Lovie Smith and Marvin Lewis proved that the better team may have had D minded guys this year. But your point is true, any guy can get it done, it is the coordinators and players you surround yourself with.


Exactly.. Jimmy had Wandstedt and Turner .. but Wandstedt and Turner did ok but have "struggled" as HC... when I say that and it is unfair to judge them to JJ when they were with them, but that is the standard that was set.

Dave had a decent record in Miami.. and Norv well he has gone from Redskins to Raiders and now looking.. bottom line is (can I quote Jerry Glandville) "this is the NFL ..meaning Not For Long " when you are decent.

PapaL
01-22-2006, 08:22 PM
But he isn't a Starbuck, Bradshaw, or a Warren Moon. He's a far cry from Trent Dilfer, but plays in a similar system......... Steve Smith just changes everything.


I think you mean Roger Staubach. But If Starbucks was a QB, I bet he would be a scrambler.

htsone
01-22-2006, 08:24 PM
Of a number 1 pick. Watching him sashay around the backfield is just laughable. There was one specific play this year that completely turned me against him. The ball was knocked out of his hand, and his effiminate "rear" stood around and watched the scrum.

hts

DRAMA
01-22-2006, 08:26 PM
And I thought Plummer had the flu...

Oh well, maybe we should let Kubiak stay in Denver, too. I mean, look at at what he had Plummer do today!! It's all Kubiak's fault...

blah...blah.....and Reggie Bush is too small...blah..blah...Vince Young...blah...VY....blah.....Vinsanity....blah... blah.....he's a hometown boy....blah....

:stirpot:

IshouldbeGM
01-22-2006, 08:30 PM
today does not prove why we need vy....today proves why we need to upgrade our defense. The only texan defender who could start for pittsburgh would be d robinson. We dont have a nfl caliber defense....today proves why we need real safeties, d-lineman, linebackers, and a real d coordinator!! When u have a true defense, your in any game

bakerooskie
01-22-2006, 08:35 PM
We need someone to protect our QB and number one draft pick... Our line was getting pushed around this whole year... Let's not discuss our number one pick, let's focus on our lack of strength and skill on our offensive line... Just a thought.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 08:40 PM
Well FA could speed things up but I figure about 2 years away if we went West coast.. and when we draft that..who knows what kind of defense we would need (if we have one at all)

We still need a TE and #2 WR to go with OL

noone on our team would be mistaken for a Brett Jones,Novachek,sharp..

I truly belive for a team to be sucessful, you have to have a above average TE.. stats will probably show otherwise, but I think TE is a QB's best friend to get out of trouble.

Agree completely. TE is huge. Look at the teams over the years and todays games. Miller for Pitt has had a big impact for his first year and Jeremy Stevens has had a big playoffs for Seattle. Novachek, Shannon Sharp, etc were all guys who made tough catches, got you 1st downs and took a ton of pressure off the outside receivers and RBs. If you can get guys in that seam then it opens up so much.

Marcus
01-22-2006, 08:41 PM
What good is defense if you have a team that can't perform on the offensive side of the field, and put points on the board? It's good to be able to stop a team in they're tracks, but you will never get anywhere if you cannot score... Offense is the way to go...

Spoken like a true "I don't care if they win, I just want to be entertained" football fan. :rolleyes:

bakerooskie
01-22-2006, 08:43 PM
With the right direction our defense could flourish... Our defensive line could use some work, but our backfield will shape up in a year or two... I think our D will be fine...

Wolf
01-22-2006, 08:50 PM
With the right direction our defense could flourish... Our defensive line could use some work, but our backfield will shape up in a year or two... I think our D will be fine...

I agree with that.. I think Fangio's system ..I will leave that alone being we all heard the player's complaints.

I also believe the OL isn't in shambles.. Weigart and Wade weren't that bad before they came here.. McKinney..well I don't like him a Center, he seems to get pushed back.. get him to guard or heck with Weigart/Wade/McKinney that is a hunk of change McNair is paying to keep Carr upright..I am wondering if one will be gone. Pitts is our best .. Wand is confusing to me if it were the coaches or players.. I just don't know who Riley could beat him out and then Riley out of the NFL (not sure if he has been picked up yet)..


Where is Agent Scully and Agent Mulder when we need them???

bakerooskie
01-22-2006, 09:01 PM
WoW, I would hope that Bob McNair, Dan Reeves, Many scouts, 7 Coaching canidates and Gary Kubiak would have already made that assumption and said we are not giving Carr his extention because he is a loser.

"Takes one to know one".


Vary good...

dat_boy_yec
01-22-2006, 09:03 PM
I really find it hard to believe that this statements and such get so much support. Everybody says Plumber is to blame for the loss, here's a new perspective. THE STEELER'S PLAYED BETTER FOOTBALL. They made Manning look like **** and they have been doing that all this yr. You think VY is gonna be able to run over a team like that? HELL NO. Vick's last game againts the Panthers produced zero rushing yds. I just don't get how some of you ppl make all these assumptions from watching other teams.

Napa Auto Parts
01-22-2006, 09:03 PM
Like i said before i doubt Carr will be good as plummer. he has showed no leadership skills no playmaking ability so we dont have to worry about that. but plummer does look like a homeless bum with that beard:stirpot:

Nighthawk
01-22-2006, 09:05 PM
Yeah, but Vince could have single-handedly beaten the Steelers. :rolleyes:

Well, Vince is bigger, faster, stronger, quicker, and he wins a lot. He's allowed to have the bad motion if he wins with it.

bakerooskie
01-22-2006, 09:07 PM
David get's no love on this board... Well, I think he can pull through and get his game together... With the right coaching, he just might pick up a few skills that will help him become a good leader...

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 09:09 PM
Hey I guess Carr is a Delhome clone too, since he has thrown three picks:rolleyes:

CaptainPatriot
01-22-2006, 09:10 PM
If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl. Jake Plummer still makes stupid rookie mistakes the same as David Carr. He has a 3/4 throwing motion like our guy. You guys would rather have that type of QB than VY. It shows you that our fans are content with losing and losers. David Carr is a loser. Get rid of him.


I was thinking the same thing watching the AFCC game. I was visualizing the Texans at home with all this supporting cast (Bush ETC: ) in the AFC Championship Game and Carr losses it for us with T.O.`s and Indecisiveness. Hope this is a WAKEUP CALL to upper Management! Get you all hyped up and crash and burn in the biggest game of Texan's history! Need to 'nip it in the bud" now. LETS GIVE VY A CHANCE! Also LEADERSHIP is not like a Switch you can just turn on either. Did anyone see LEADERSHIP by Plummer in that game?


Didn't think so.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 09:12 PM
Well, Vince is bigger, faster, stronger, quicker
yeah I know he's the million dollar man, he's the savior.

I mean Jesus prayed to Vince and asked him to bless his food during the last dinner.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 09:14 PM
Hey I guess Carr is a Delhome clone too, since he has thrown three picks:rolleyes:

LOL..I was thinking this would come up. People need to stop comparing Carr to every QB they see play in the playoffs. A guy having a bad game isn't a "see the best QBs have a bad game when pressured" thing and a guy having a great game isn't the "see what Dave could do in a system like that" thing. It is all independent and we will see over this next year what person comes out of this. He is himself and that is it.

Nighthawk
01-22-2006, 09:15 PM
The only thing around here that can be associated with a "loser" is posts like this. First of all Carr and Plummer, two completely different men,

This seems wrong. Plummer is like a smarter, better-passing, more aggressive Carr who is more elusive and makes plays with his feet as well as his arm. THey are different, but they do have something in common, and that is that they are both kind of middle-of-the-pack NFL QBs. David's a LOT slower moving around than Jake. David looks like he might have a stronger arm. Clearly Plummer was busted up in today's game, rushed and harried and he was game but couldn't make anything happen. I put that down in some large measure to the scheme--the Broncs were NOT well-prepared for the Steeler D. They looked clueless out there.

All that said, seems to me that you CAN SAY that Carr is sort of a slightly junior grade, heavy-footed, more conservative Jake Plummer with a strong arm and zero leadership skills, and be pretty much on target. If that's what "Kubes" wants to build his coaching legend on, so be it.

bakerooskie
01-22-2006, 09:16 PM
What's going on with Jake Delhome... This is a horrible game for him... I think the guy can't handle the pressure.

Wolf
01-22-2006, 09:16 PM
Personally, I want to see what a REAL offensive coordinator can do with Carr.. I would have liked to have seen what Palmer could do with Carr WITHOUT Capers holding the reigns. Honestly with the way Capers liked to run the offense.. why did we draft AJ #3 overall, so he'd be used as a decoy?


I am hoping this team isn't going to be like the Dolphins in the late '80's and early '90's were they were drafting RB after RB in the 1st round to compliment Marino.. instead we are drafting QB after QB in the 1st round

bakerooskie
01-22-2006, 09:19 PM
Personally, I want to see what a REAL offensive coordinator can do with Carr.. I would have liked to have seen what Palmer could do with Carr WITHOUT Capers holding the reigns. Honestly with the way Capers liked to run the offense.. why did we draft AJ #3 overall, so he'd be used as a decoy?


I am hoping this team isn't going to be like the Dolphins in the late '80's and early '90's were they were drafting RB after RB in the 1st round to compliment Marino.. instead we are drafting QB after QB in the 1st round

The fealing is mutual...

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 09:34 PM
This seems wrong. Plummer is like a smarter, better-passing, more aggressive Carr who is more elusive and makes plays with his feet as well as his arm. THey are different, but they do have something in common, and that is that they are both kind of middle-of-the-pack NFL QBs. David's a LOT slower moving around than Jake. David looks like he might have a stronger arm. Clearly Plummer was busted up in today's game, rushed and harried and he was game but couldn't make anything happen. I put that down in some large measure to the scheme--the Broncs were NOT well-prepared for the Steeler D. They looked clueless out there.

All that said, seems to me that you CAN SAY that Carr is sort of a slightly junior grade, heavy-footed, more conservative Jake Plummer with a strong arm and zero leadership skills, and be pretty much on target. If that's what "Kubes" wants to build his coaching legend on, so be it.

First of all I'm sick of the zero leadership posts. Lets see Carr was put behind the worst offensive line in NFL history, its kinda hard to lead a team down the field when you can't even get off your back. Lets look at other QBs put in the same situation. Steve Young, I guess he was a LOSER who had absolutely no LEADERSHIP when he played on the Bucs, yet later on in his career when he was put in a winning situation he led the 49ers to championships and became a hall of famer. Lets look at another QB, Plunkett who was put on a absolute horrid team, but again when put into a winning situation, was able to LEAD a raiders team to become the FIRST wild card team to win the superbowl.

Its funny that you say Plummer is a more aggressive qb than Carr, I'd call it more mistake prone. Despite playing behind the worst Oline Carr has still managed to keep his INTs and mistakes down while throwing for more TDs. Plummer hasn't played on a team like ours and if he did he would be ran out of town. Its also funny how you say Carr is heavy footed like he is Peyton or Marino, He lead the AFC in rushing yards last year and is just as mobile as Plummer.

People like to place ALL the blame on Carr, wake up. The QB gets too much praise and too much BLAME. There isn't a QB in this leauge that could of had success on this team (including the almighty greek god Vince). Carr gave this team multiple 4th quarter leads which the defense and the conservative coaching staff blew.

This is the line in the sand, All the new fans that have joined in the last month or anybody else that says they aren't going to be a fan of this team if Vince isn't drafted, save yourself time and latch on to another team,(or whatever team that drafts Vince) because I hate to tell you this. Vince isn't going to be drafted by the houston texans. Carr is going to be quarterbacking this team next year.

guichows6
01-22-2006, 10:02 PM
From what I can tell, it looks like we are drafting Bush...and although Im sure it will help the team in the long run (it wont happen next year) we wont be better than if we were to draft Young...I like Carr and all, but I honestly dont think he has, what Vince has...the "IT" factor. 12-15 yrs from now, we'll still be looking for that first trip to the superbowl while Vince will of had a few...under the titans! (if thats where he goes). Hell be going into the HoF, while we just look back to 2006 and say "Damn, we really missed out on something special" I mean seriously, the stars are aligned ppl...Hes from houston, wants to play here, our new coach is also a native, all season he proved he has the heart of a champ! All season he brought his team from the dead to win, and stay on track to prove he is the best college player in recent memory to come into the draft. Not only did he do it all season, but he did it on the biggest sports stage not to mention highest rated, game in college footbal history! Everyone witnessed how calm he was toward the end of the game to come back and win!! Im sorry but if we pass this guy up, it will be one of the biggest regrets this ballclub will have in the next few years. Ive been saying all season long that I wished Vince could somehow be a Texan someday...and gualla...he declares for the draft...Bush will be good, but will definetly not be around as long as vince (according to career spans based on position you play) and definetly, will not be as big of an impact as Vince can be...just my 2 cents. I will root for the texans regardless as my #1 team, but if vince goes to tennessee, than I will be forced to root for them too! Or wherever he goes!

Erratic Assassin
01-22-2006, 10:10 PM
If we are LUCKY the best we can hope for in David Carr is that he turn into what Jake Plummer is. Meaning a guy who won't lose you games and just manages the game but who is not a star. Well that type of QB is not the type of guy that will lead you to the Super Bowl.

Maybe if Carr can be the next Matt Hasselback he can lead his team to the Superbowl.

infantrycak
01-22-2006, 10:12 PM
Funny, in the last two weeks we have seen excellent QB's Manning and Delhomme and a pro-bowl QB Plummer look like crud when consistantly pressured. Naaah, probably just a coincidence, never mind.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 10:13 PM
From what I can tell, it looks like we are drafting Bush...and although Im sure it will help the team in the long run (it wont happen next year) we wont be better than if we were to draft Young...I like Carr and all, but I honestly dont think he has, what Vince has...the "IT" factor. 12-15 yrs from now, we'll still be looking for that first trip to the superbowl while Vince will of had a few...under the titans! (if thats where he goes). Hell be going into the HoF, while we just look back to 2006 and say "Damn, we really missed out on something special" I mean seriously, the stars are aligned ppl...Hes from houston, wants to play here, our new coach is also a native, all season he proved he has the heart of a champ! All season he brought his team from the dead to win, and stay on track to prove he is the best college player in recent memory to come into the draft. Not only did he do it all season, but he did it on the biggest sports stage not to mention highest rated, game in college footbal history! Everyone witnessed how calm he was toward the end of the game to come back and win!! Im sorry but if we pass this guy up, it will be one of the biggest regrets this ballclub will have in the next few years. Ive been saying all season long that I wished Vince could somehow be a Texan someday...and gualla...he declares for the draft...Bush will be good, but will definetly not be around as long as vince (according to career spans based on position you play) and definetly, will not be as big of an impact as Vince can be...just my 2 cents. I will root for the texans regardless as my #1 team, but if vince goes to tennessee, than I will be forced to root for them too! Or wherever he goes!

If USC was able to convert 1&1/2 yards would we even be having this discussion. Also what is the "IT" factor. Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did.

Look, again for the one hundreth time. I don't care who the texans draft I just want the texans to make the rational and smart decision and not take a guy because he's from houston.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 10:15 PM
Funny, in the last two weeks we have seen excellent QB's Manning and Delhomme and a pro-bowl QB Plummer look like crud when consistantly pressured. Naaah, probably just a coincidence, never mind.

I put it earlier but IMHO people need to stop comparing Carr to every QB they see play in the playoffs. A guy having a bad game isn't a "see the best QBs have a bad game when pressured" thing and a guy having a great game isn't the "see what Dave could do in a system like that" thing. It is all independent and we will see over this next year what person comes out of this. He is himself and that is it.

stevo3883
01-22-2006, 10:17 PM
im not getting into this for the most part, but...


Its pretty depressing to realize our #1 overall pick 5 years ago is still trying to reach the point where he can just 'manage a game' and not lose it for us.


he should be winning games for us... his salary is not that of a "dont lose the game QB", its that of a "owns a house in hawaii because he goes to the probowl so often"

infantrycak
01-22-2006, 10:20 PM
I put it earlier but IMHO people need to stop comparing Carr to every QB they see play in the playoffs. A guy having a bad game isn't a "see the best QBs have a bad game when pressured" thing and a guy having a great game isn't the "see what Dave could do in a system like that" thing. It is all independent and we will see over this next year what person comes out of this. He is himself and that is it.

Well you can say that, but I'm not sure why you would. We could extend it out in the regular season and compare QB's with 4+ sacks per game to ones with 3 and under on a game by game split stat. Want to take bets on the results? Seriously--across the league look at the QB ratings even across a QB's entire career and compare 3 and under to 4+--do you really think there won't be a huge drop off in QB rating and win %. The playoffs concentrate this kind of argument because more people are watching the same games and the QB's are leaders/good to great QB's. Seems pretty relevant IMO. Plus, it isn't a comparison of Carr per se, it is an observation of performance expectations for any QB who is pressured vs. when they aren't pressured. It could be applied to any QB, of which Carr is one of the set.

stevo3883
01-22-2006, 10:20 PM
If USC was able to convert 1&1/2 yards would we even be having this discussion. Also what is the "IT" factor. Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did.

Look, again for the one hundreth time. I don't care who the texans draft I just want the texans to make the rational and smart decision and not take a guy because he's from houston.


"IF" they did? IF? guess what, they didn't. there is a reason we talk about Vince like that, he did IT, there were no "IFS" with his performance.


and saying "Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did" is easily the most ridiculous statement ive heard since someone said Vince is slower than Carr. its honestly not worth a response, and leads me to believe that you're most likely a spiteful aggie.

infantrycak
01-22-2006, 10:23 PM
"IF" they did? IF? guess what, they didn't. there is a reason we talk about Vince like that, he did IT, there were no "IFS" with his performance.

I'm not into this whole argument y'all are having, but obviously the IF you are refering to didn't have anything to do with VY since he wasn't on the field so that play doesn't have anything to do with whether he has IT.

Wolf
01-22-2006, 10:23 PM
I wonder what the message boards said about Kerry Collins after a couple of years with Carolina starting from scratch.

we might have to check if there is a trend with rookie QB's with expansion teams


track record of rookies with expansion teams hmmm
Collins (carolina)
Couch (Cleveland)
Carr (Texans)

Brunell I believe was a veteran ..
:spy:

stevo3883
01-22-2006, 10:30 PM
I'm not into this whole argument y'all are having, but obviously the IF you are refering to didn't have anything to do with VY since he wasn't on the field so that play doesn't have anything to do with whether he has IT.


you're misunderstanding.

My point was you can't go around using "if reggie did X, no one would talk about Vince!"

the reason we talk about Vince, is because Reggie had the chance and DIDNT do X. its not just the 4th & 2 play. Reggie had the ball in the open field with 10 seconds to go @ the 50 and decided to run out of bounds. Had he cutback and picked up around 15 more yards, USC has the clock stop and can run the field goal unit out.

on the flip side, when Vince had the chance, he did come through

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 10:30 PM
"IF" they did? IF? guess what, they didn't. there is a reason we talk about Vince like that, he did IT, there were no "IFS" with his performance.


and saying "Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did" is easily the most ridiculous statement ive heard since someone said Vince is slower than Carr. its honestly not worth a response, and leads me to believe that you're most likely a spiteful aggie. Ah no, actually I'm a longhorn fan and proudly support a horns tatto on my right shoulder. I'm just not blind. Vince had a complete team, somthing USC didn't. Bush Won the ND game and the Fresno game for them. Bush also gave USC multiple bennifets due to match up problems whenever they used him as a decoy or throw him on the outside as a wideout. Again I'm looking through NFL googles not Burnt orange College football googles. Beforee the rose bowl Vince was a top 15 pick at best, I just chose not to let one game against a crappy defense blind me. Vince isn't going to be able to rush for 146 yards against a NFL defense. Again I'm ROFLMAO at you trying to say I'm a aggie fan....hahaha. I hate the aggies.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 10:33 PM
Well you can say that, but I'm not sure why you would. We could extend it out in the regular season and compare QB's with 4+ sacks per game to ones with 3 and under on a game by game split stat. Want to take bets on the results? Seriously--across the league look at the QB ratings even across a QB's entire career and compare 3 and under to 4+--do you really think there won't be a huge drop off in QB rating and win %. The playoffs concentrate this kind of argument because more people are watching the same games and the QB's are leaders/good to great QB's. Seems pretty relevant IMO. Plus, it isn't a comparison of Carr per se, it is an observation of performance expectations for any QB who is pressured vs. when they aren't pressured. It could be applied to any QB, of which Carr is one of the set.

Listen, I am not dogging Carr when I say that. I see your argument. I'm just saying that I think right now people are going in circles in this debate trying to compare Carr to some guy that fits their mold of a QB. The reality of it is if it was so easy to give a guy a good situation and and have him thrive, then the Ryan Leaf's of the world who had physical tools would still be getting a chance. I don't see the comparisons. I don't see Carr as Jake Plummer choking and I don't see him as a Hassleback who just needed tweaking. I look at our teams situation independently. Carr may not really be capable and we may be paying a guy big bucks to be mediocre. He also might be a goldmine that was under coached. We can debate that all day. My problem is quatifying how a Roethlisberger has leadership skills and poise in a pocket and how Delhomme seems to also but had a bad day today. EVERY QB in the history of the league has had horrible games where they got pummeled. That doesn't make me think that MCCown of Arizona is going to be Roger Staubach because he gets no protection. Carr has gotten pummeled but people will judge him on the intangibles they see and that isn't going to change.

infantrycak
01-22-2006, 10:33 PM
you're misunderstanding.

My point was you can't go around using "if reggie did X, no one would talk about Vince!"

the reason we talk about Vince, is because Reggie had the chance and DIDNT do X. its not just the 4th & 2 play. Reggie had the ball in the open field with 10 seconds to go @ the 50 and decided to run out of bounds. Had he cutback and picked up around 15 more yards, USC has the clock stop and can run the field goal unit out.

on the flip side, when Vince had the chance, he did come through

Sorry to interrupt then--carry on.

stevo3883
01-22-2006, 10:38 PM
Ah no, actually I'm a longhorn fan and proudly support a horns tatto on my right shoulder. I'm just not blind. Vince had a complete team, somthing USC didn't. Bush Won the ND game and the Fresno game for them. Bush also gave USC multiple bennifets due to match up problems when ever they used him as a decoy or throw him on the outside as a wideout. Again I'm looking through NFL googles not Burnt orange College football googles. Beforee the rose bowl Vince was a top 15 pick at best, I just chose not to let one game against a crappy defense blind me. Vince isn't going to be able to rush for 146 yards against a NFL defense. Again I'm ROFLMAO at you trying to say I'm a aggie fan....hahaha. I hate the aggies.

well, your logic is hilarious.

UT's offense was Vince+ Thomas+ ALL UNDERCLASSMEN- none of them having more than 12 games experience(pittman,melton, and charles had no experience)

yet, USC's offense with Matt Leinart, Lendale White, Bush, Jarrett, Byrd, Smith was less complete than UTs? and you expect me to believe you are a longhorn?

I expect other longhorns to actually know something about football, and at least know about their team; you seem to be lost on both.


ah the ND game. where on 4th and 9 Matt LLeinart hit Dwayne Jarrett for a 60 yard pass and won the game shortly after with a qb sneak. but yet, it was somehow Reggie Bush that won this game? did you even watch it? Leinart won the game.

the infamous Fresno game. the game that won him the heisman. the game that people like you use as proof to reggie's skills (one game.... hypocrisy!) yet that game was nearly lost by a boneheaded fumble and then another boneheaded perfonal foul against Reggie at the end of the game.





and finally, Bush giving match up problems is more important than Vince being like 50+% of UT's offense?

im sorry, but there is no way you were a longhorn before the rose bowl, you're just way too uninformed.

infantrycak
01-22-2006, 10:40 PM
Carr has gotten pummeled but people will judge him on the intangibles they see and that isn't going to change.

I understand what you are trying to get at (and by the way, I am not defending Carr, but trying to figure out how to judge QB's generally) but the questions become what are the intangibles and how do you judge them. It is apparent IMO that what many people view as intangibles are aided greatly by a good team (more W's) and good pass protection (direct correlation to QB rating IMO). As Vinny pointed out the other day and I agree--Manning isn't the best leader around (although he is certainly a great QB otherwise), but generally he benefits from a heck of a surrounding cast and very little pressure.

I think I know where the Texans are going at QB next season regardless of where I may want them to go and will still support them. It is going to be interesting to see how things turn out IMO.

guichows6
01-22-2006, 10:42 PM
If USC was able to convert 1&1/2 yards would we even be having this discussion. Also what is the "IT" factor. Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did.

Look, again for the one hundreth time. I don't care who the texans draft I just want the texans to make the rational and smart decision and not take a guy because he's from houston.

When I say "IT" I mean he has that auora, you look at the team and you know he is the man! You know he is going to get it done! He'll do what ever it takes for his team to win...he did it all season long when they got behind, and at the end did it to the #1 team in college. When he gets to the NFL, hell do the same. This guy will be everything Vick should have been at this point in his career...remember when everyone on this board wished Vick would have came in the NFL a year later so we could have him??? Well we have the opportunity to get a much more improved version that just so happens to be from here, and wants to play here. This guy would probably accept a lower paycheck just to play for his hometown and state, and will do whatever it takes (just like with the longhorns) to bring his city and team to respectability in the NFL ranks as soon as he gets the chance

bakerooskie
01-22-2006, 10:42 PM
I understand what you are trying to get at (and by the way, I am not defending Carr, but trying to figure out how to judge QB's generally) but the questions become what are the intangibles and how do you judge them. It is apparent IMO that what many people view as intangibles are aided greatly by a good team (more W's) and good pass protection (direct correlation to QB rating IMO). As Vinny pointed out the other day and I agree--Manning isn't the best leader around (although he is certainly a great QB otherwise), but generally he benefits from a heck of a surrounding cast and very little pressure.

I think I know where the Texans are going at QB next season regardless of where I may want them to go and will still support them. It is going to be interesting to see how things turn out IMO.


AMEN...

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 10:44 PM
you're misunderstanding.

My point was you can't go around using "if reggie did X, no one would talk about Vince!"

the reason we talk about Vince, is because Reggie had the chance and DIDNT do X. its not just the 4th & 2 play. Reggie had the ball in the open field with 10 seconds to go @ the 50 and decided to run out of bounds. Had he cutback and picked up around 15 more yards, USC has the clock stop and can run the field goal unit out.

on the flip side, when Vince had the chance, he did come through
Im not saying "if reggie did X". I'm simply saying you shouldn't overreact and flip your whole draft upside down off one game, which despite what this city says is exactly what they're doing. Go back and look at the pre rosebowl polls and the polls after the rosebowl.

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 10:45 PM
Funny, in the last two weeks we have seen excellent QB's Manning and Delhomme and a pro-bowl QB Plummer look like crud when consistantly pressured. Naaah, probably just a coincidence, never mind.

Funny in the last two weeks, they were being pressured by divisional caliber playoff defenses, and all the quarterbacks were criticized for their bad play. Not one escaped scrutiny...

Don't make me rag on Carr again... I like the kid, I really do. But I'm ready to move on. We've gone 2-14 this year. We're getting a new coach, a new offensive system, maybe a new defensive scheme. And Vince Young is being touted the best College football player of all time. He's coming off the best football game of his career, where he quarterbacked an underdog team to a victory, and won the game himself, in the last 6 minutes of regulation. And, he's coming out of college early, annddd we've got the #1 pick.

You've got to be fooling yourself, if you don't think everyone who voted Reggie for the Heisman isn't kicking themselves in the rear right now.

Do you know for a fact that Carr is going to have a probowl year next year?? Do you know for a fact that Carr is going to do all the things we think he can?? I believe.... that he won't. AFAIK, no one has.. no one has performed as dismally as David has, then turned his game around, untill he was traded. No one has played at Carr's level, for four years, then turned around and played at a probowl level, unless he got traded.

Carr didn't have a fair chance, I'll agree with you there. But neither has Harrington, Brooks, Plummer(in Arizona) Warren Moon, Quincy Carter, Anthony Wright, and I can go on and on, and on.


Let's talk about that St Louis game, where Carr did so well in the first half, but funked it up in the second half. Did we have a bunch of ringers playing the first half, in our players uniforms?? and our real team came back in the second??

Carr is good, not great.

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 10:59 PM
If USC was able to convert 1&1/2 yards would we even be having this discussion. Also what is the "IT" factor. Bush won just as many games for his team as Young did.

Look, again for the one hundreth time. I don't care who the texans draft I just want the texans to make the rational and smart decision and not take a guy because he's from houston.


Now, I'm getting tired of this....... there are sooooooooo many reasons for drafting Vince, and not one of them is that he is from Houston. That is just the one thing that should make it easier.

Reggie is a legit #1 draft choice. Matt Lienart is a lefit #1 draft choice. Vince, is a legit #1 draft choice, get over it.

We need a new Running back, like Pamela Anderson needs more Breast Implants. Matt's more NFL ready......... Vince has more upside, and you just don't pass on a prospect like Vince....

He's thrown for more Yards than McNabb, He's run for more yards than Vick. He's lead the league in Passer efficiency all year. He was almost deadlike calm, when he was down by two scores, with 6 minutes to go in the game. He challenged his team to work outside of practice to get better. He watches film, and studies the game beyound what the coaches ask of him. He's improved every aspect of his game since leaving highschool, and right now, his skills, his abilities, his leadership, his poise, is off the charts......

His name will go down in the NFL history books. He will be somebody, and he will win superbowls(plural). And he's willing to take anyone willing with him.

that's what I want on my team. & I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't.

And....


.........he's from Houston.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 10:59 PM
well, your logic is hilarious.

UT's offense was Vince+ Thomas+ ALL UNDERCLASSMEN- none of them having more than 12 games experience(pittman,melton, and charles had no experience)

yet, USC's offense with Matt Leinart, Lendale White, Bush, Jarrett, Byrd, Smith was less complete than UTs? and you expect me to believe you are a longhorn?

I expect other longhorns to actually know something about football, and at least know about their team; you seem to be lost on both.


ah the ND game. where on 4th and 9 Matt LLeinart hit Dwayne Jarrett for a 60 yard pass and won the game shortly after with a qb sneak. but yet, it was somehow Reggie Bush that won this game? did you even watch it? Leinart won the game.

the infamous Fresno game. the game that won him the heisman. the game that people like you use as proof to reggie's skills (one game.... hypocrisy!) yet that game was nearly lost by a boneheaded fumble and then another boneheaded perfonal foul against Reggie at the end of the game.





and finally, Bush giving match up problems is more important than Vince being like 50+% of UT's offense?

im sorry, but there is no way you were a longhorn before the rose bowl, you're just way too uninformed.

no actually your rebutall is hilarious and filled with hypocrisy, especially when you quote the Fresno game as the game that won Reggie the hiesman, like the rosebowl didn't make Vince a top 5 pick. Also don't question my alliance to the horns, before I signed up for the service and was stationed across the country I drove hours to see them play.

Also yeah Reggie won the ND game for them, if he doesn't push Matt in they lose, say it with me they lose.

Also as far as Vince being 50% of UTs offense.....ah hello he's the QB, its not very uncommon for a qb to be atleast 50% of a teams offense, esecially a QB who's supposed to be NFL caliber, those aren't very high standards.

Also If you sit here and say that UT didn't have the better ovrl team I have to question whether or not you were a fan, regardless if they had under classmen (which btw is a weak point at best) They had a better statistical offense and defense, speaking of defense it wasn't even close. UT had one of the best defenses in the country (which btw Bush still avg. 6.7 yards a carry against)

You can call me whatever you want I really don't give a flying flip I know what I am

I just chose not to go bonkers over one game against one of the countries worst defenses.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 11:02 PM
Now, I'm getting tired of this....... there are sooooooooo many reasons for drafting Vince, and not one of them is that he is from Houston. That is just the one thing that should make it easier.

Reggie is a legit #1 draft choice. Matt Lienart is a lefit #1 draft choice. Vince, is a legit #1 draft choice, get over it.

We need a new Running back, like Pamela Anderson needs more Breast Implants. Matt's more NFL ready......... Vince has more upside, and you just don't pass on a prospect like Vince....

He's thrown for more Yards than McNabb, He's run for more yards than Vick. He's lead the league in Passer efficiency all year. He was almost deadlike calm, when he was down by two scores, with 6 minutes to go in the game. He challenged his team to work outside of practice to get better. He watches film, and studies the game beyound what the coaches ask of him. He's improved every aspect of his game since leaving highschool, and right now, his skills, his abilities, his leadership, his poise, is off the charts......

His name will go down in the NFL history books. He will be somebody, and he will win superbowls(plural). And he's willing to take anyone willing with him.

that's what I want on my team. & I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't.

And....


.........he's from Houston.

Actually Pamela had her boobs reduced a while back so if she wants an upgrade, Im not one to stop her.

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 11:04 PM
I wonder what the message boards said about Kerry Collins after a couple of years with Carolina starting from scratch.

we might have to check if there is a trend with rookie QB's with expansion teams


track record of rookies with expansion teams hmmm
Collins (carolina)
Couch (Cleveland)
Carr (Texans)

Brunell I believe was a veteran ..
:spy:


Brunnell still wasn't afforded the curtesy we've afforded Carr. Brunell won some games. Brunell was the man. Then a rookie QB came in and replaced him his Rookie year.

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 11:14 PM
Im not saying "if reggie did X". I'm simply saying you shouldn't overreact and flip your whole draft upside down off one game, which despite what this city says is exactly what they're doing. Go back and look at the pre rosebowl polls and the polls after the rosebowl.

First, Reggie was watching that play, just like Vince.... and whether you believe it or not, it means something. Just like Lendale having more rushing touchdowns, than the homerun hitter.

Second, if it weren't for that one game, Vince would have been trying to win the National title as a Senior. It would not take away from the fact that he led the NCAA in YPCompletion, Effieciency, or having passed for 3000 yards, or winning 12 games in 2005.

You're telling me Vince could challenge REggie Bush for the Hiesman, Lendale can match his numbers, but only Reggie deservse to be in the top 10?? :homer:

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 11:18 PM
Actually Pamela had her boobs reduced a while back so if she wants an upgrade, Im not one to stop her.


I'm talking about need.

But then your support for Reggie shows you don't quite understand needs.

thunderkyss
01-22-2006, 11:24 PM
Also as far as Vince being 50% of UTs offense.....ah hello he's the QB, its not very uncommon for a qb to be atleast 50% of a teams offense, esecially a QB who's supposed to be NFL caliber, those aren't very high standards.
Are you serious?? tell me of another QB that counts as 50% of the teams offense, that won the National Championship.

Also If you sit here and say that UT didn't have the better ovrl team I have to question whether or not you were a fan, regardless if they had under classmen (which btw is a weak point at best) They had a better statistical offense and defense, speaking of defense it wasn't even close. UT had one of the best defenses in the country (which btw Bush still avg. 6.7 yards a carry against) I want what you're smoking. Vince had the better defense, no question about that. on Offense, Matt, Reggie, and Lendale will more than likely go in the first hour of the NFL draft. All after Vince, but they'll go in the first hour.

You can call me whatever you want I really don't give a flying flip I know what I am

I just chose not to go bonkers over one game against one of the countries worst defenses.
If that was the only game Vince has done that to in the last two years you'd have a point. But being a UT fan, I don't need to tell you, that it wasn't....... not by a longshot.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 11:25 PM
First, Reggie was watching that play, just like Vince.... and whether you believe it or not, it means something. Just like Lendale having more rushing touchdowns, than the homerun hitter.

Second, if it weren't for that one game, Vince would have been trying to win the National title as a Senior. It would not take away from the fact that he led the NCAA in YPCompletion, Effieciency, or having passed for 3000 yards, or winning 12 games in 2005.

You're telling me Vince could challenge REggie Bush for the Hiesman, Lendale can match his numbers, but only Reggie deservse to be in the top 10?? :homer: I don't understand what your trying to get at, I reconize Vince had a great year, but the fact remains before this game teams didn't have him in the top 10. I thought Vince deserved the heisman.

Also the Horns should have gone undefeated, they were the best TEAM. All they had to do was get passed Ohio and USC, which were their only challenges all year.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 11:29 PM
I'm talking about need.

But then your support for Reggie shows you don't quite understand needs. Ah...No...Go back and look at my history. I've stated many times I don't know what we should do with the first pick and I'm not a "Reggie Homer". I just don't think A team should flip their draft upside down over one game. However as far as you saying we don't need a rb (implicating that a qb is more of a need, which it isn't). I say if you really supported drafting on need, then we NEED olineman and defensive players.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2006, 11:30 PM
I understand what you are trying to get at (and by the way, I am not defending Carr, but trying to figure out how to judge QB's generally) but the questions become what are the intangibles and how do you judge them. It is apparent IMO that what many people view as intangibles are aided greatly by a good team (more W's) and good pass protection (direct correlation to QB rating IMO). As Vinny pointed out the other day and I agree--Manning isn't the best leader around (although he is certainly a great QB otherwise), but generally he benefits from a heck of a surrounding cast and very little pressure.

I think I know where the Texans are going at QB next season regardless of where I may want them to go and will still support them. It is going to be interesting to see how things turn out IMO.

Good post and I do understand where everyone is coming from I don't know how to quantify it either, I am just going on my personal thoughts that I posted last week and trying to look at the situation from what else I learn. We will have to see what direction they go and then see how Carr progresses in whatever situation he is in.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2006, 11:35 PM
Are you serious?? tell me of another QB that counts as 50% of the teams offense, that won the National Championship.
Well counting passing and rushing, almost every other great college qb that played the game
I want what you're smoking. Vince had the better defense, no question about that. on Offense, Matt, Reggie, and Lendale will more than likely go in the first hour of the NFL draft. All after Vince, but they'll go in the first hour. ah I don't smoke anything and get drug tested on a regular basis. Also I don't give a rats *** where players are drafted. Satistacly, ALL YEAR the horns had the better offense. The college game and where players are taken in the draft is irrevalent

If that was the only game Vince has done that to in the last two years you'd have a point. But being a UT fan, I don't need to tell you, that it wasn't....... not by a longshot.
No it wasn't, but until that game we didn't have ridiculous "Vince is going to save the world" threads.

gg no re
01-22-2006, 11:47 PM
What's uglier? Plummer's current beard or Carr's old hair?

On another note, the board has succeeded to meeting my expectations by coming out with another explosion of one-day judgements.

Final note: Pittsburgh has a fascinating defense. Rips apart a lot more offenses then you think they would.

TEXANRED
01-22-2006, 11:51 PM
Funny in the last two weeks, they were being pressured by divisional caliber playoff defenses, and all the quarterbacks were criticized for their bad play. Not one escaped scrutiny...

And Vince Young is being touted the best College football player of all time. He's coming off the best football game of his career, where he quarterbacked an underdog team to a victory, and won the game himself, in the last 6 minutes of regulation. And, he's coming out of college early, annddd we've got the #1 pick.

You've got to be fooling yourself, if you don't think everyone who voted Reggie for the Heisman isn't kicking themselves in the rear right now.

Do you know for a fact that Carr is going to have a probowl year next year?? Do you know for a fact that Carr is going to do all the things we think he can?? I believe.... that he won't. AFAIK, no one has.. no one has performed as dismally as David has, then turned his game around, untill he was traded. No one has played at Carr's level, for four years, then turned around and played at a probowl level, unless he got traded.


How can Vince be the best college football player of all times when they are saying that about Bush? You cant have two players be the best player ever. So which is it? Well I guess if you are in Texas its Vince but the other 49 states are still saying Bush.

So answer me a question. How do you know Young will be great? Young will be a leader, a pro bowl QB, the mentality to take a beating the way Carr does? You are sounding pretty sure about yourself so I must know your secret. My magik 8-ball is still on the fritz after it predicted a 12-4 season.

No one is kicking themselves for voting on Reggie, also I wouldnt exactly say the Longhorns were the underdog of the year. They were number two in the nation. We are not talking about Rudy. I'm not seeing a movie anytime soon about the down trodden Horns and how they scrapped there way to the top.

Plummer was a FA. He wasent traded.

AustinJB
01-22-2006, 11:51 PM
No it wasn't, but until that game we didn't have ridiculous "Vince is going to save the world" threads.

Repeat...repeat...repeat...repeat.....Again, until that game, VY was returning to play his senior season AND therefore, Carr was our best option. Once VY declared, many feel that Carr is no longer our best option. If VY was not entering the draft, the talk would ALL be of Bush vs. trading down.

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 12:00 AM
Repeat...repeat...repeat...repeat.....Again, until that game, VY was returning to play his senior season AND therefore, Carr was our best option. Once VY declared, many feel that Carr is no longer our best option. If VY was not entering the draft, the talk would ALL be of Bush vs. trading down.


Austin... I could've sworn that I told you the next time you talk for me, get mean... snarl a little bit. Bark like a big dog.


Other than that, I've gotta give you another high five for understanding exactly what I was saying.

Even though that should've been pretty obvious to a UT fan.

AustinJB
01-23-2006, 12:00 AM
How can Vince be the best college football player of all times when they are saying that about Bush? You cant have two players be the best player ever. So which is it? Well I guess if you are in Texas its Vince but the other 49 states are still saying Bush.

VY is looking like the best college football player of all time at QB. Bush is the same at RB.

What it boils down to is, do you want the best college QB (who touches the ball every snap) or the best college RB (who touches it 25+ times a game at best)? That is the question? No secret....I prefer VY b/c I prefer:

QB......POTENTIALLY great (w/ good QB coach in Kubes)
RB.....Good (especially w/ Kubes philosophy)
WR.....Potential All-Pro
OL....fix through draft and FA

as opposed to:

QB.....Average (even w/ good QB coach)
RB....POTENTIALLY great
WR.....Potential All-Pro
OL....fix through draft and FA

Just depends on which you think is the best recipe for success.:twocents:

TEXANRED
01-23-2006, 12:02 AM
Repeat...repeat...repeat...repeat.....Again, until that game, VY was returning to play his senior season AND therefore, Carr was our best option. Once VY declared, many feel that Carr is no longer our best option. If VY was not entering the draft, the talk would ALL be of Bush vs. trading down.
Not true. If Vince Young was from Pittsburg we wouldnt be having this debate. To many Horn fans want to continue to watch there boy. Lienart is still the better QB of the two. No one has even mentioned Lienart.

Carr Bombed
01-23-2006, 12:02 AM
Repeat...repeat...repeat...repeat.....Again, until that game, VY was returning to play his senior season AND therefore, Carr was our best option. Once VY declared, many feel that Carr is no longer our best option. If VY was not entering the draft, the talk would ALL be of Bush vs. trading down.repeat....repeat....repeat...No I've heard this argument before and many draft predictors have stated If Young came out he would be taken between the 10 and 15 spot before the rose bowl. There was a national poll taken on espn (After the rose bowl) and the only people that feel Young should be taken #1 (eventually replacing Carr) is people in Texas. People across the county said we would be crazy to take Young.

Again I don't want my franchise nor my head coach making a decision and flipping their draft off one game, which despite what the other horns fans say would be exactly what they would be doing.

TEXANRED
01-23-2006, 12:06 AM
VY is looking like the best college football player of all time at QB. Bush is the same at RB.

What it boils down to is, do you want the best college QB (who touches the ball every snap) or the best college RB (who touches it 25+ times a game at best)? That is the question? No secret....I prefer VY b/c I prefer:

QB......POTENTIALLY great (w/ good QB coach in Kubes)
RB.....Good (especially w/ Kubes philosophy)
WR.....Potential All-Pro
OL....fix through draft and FA

as opposed to:

QB.....Average (even w/ good QB coach)
RB....POTENTIALLY great
WR.....Potential All-Pro
OL....fix through draft and FA

Just depends on which you think is the best recipe for success.:twocents:
So what you are hinting at is that Carr is going to be average no matter what?

I will say it again, Lienart's two national championships and the heisman and a 37-2 college record is much more impressive then what Young has done thus far. In my opinion.

Carr Bombed
01-23-2006, 12:13 AM
So what you are hinting at is that Carr is going to be average no matter what?

I will say it again, Lienart's two national championships and the heisman and a 37-2 college record is much more impressive then what Young has done thus far. In my opinion. sshhh.......don't tell people that Lienart was 37-2 and played in much closer games under greater pressure and didn't have the luxury of a great defense and is a much more NFL ready QB. (which is why VY is going to drop to the titans). Don't tell people that if they truly believe the QB position is a need Lienart is the best NFL, again NFL QB in the draft. Don't tell then that despite losing the Rose Bowl Lienart had a great game against the countries toughest defense.

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 12:18 AM
So what you are hinting at is that Carr is going to be average no matter what?

I will say it again, Lienart's two national championships and the heisman and a 37-2 college record is much more impressive then what Young has done thus far. In my opinion.


That's a good argument... One that I'd have trouble arguing. But if you don't think we should replace Carr with Lienart, then this is a moot point.

One of the things that has me high on Vince, is our inability to build a half decent O-line in 4 years. Matt would get killed here next year.

Carr Bombed
01-23-2006, 12:20 AM
One of the things that has me high on Vince, is our inability to build a half decent O-line in 4 years. Matt would get killed here next year.

Uh...and so would Vince (Did you see the Oline he played behind this and last year...greatest oline in the country) and every other QB

AustinJB
01-23-2006, 12:21 AM
So what you are hinting at is that Carr is going to be average no matter what?

I will say it again, Lienart's two national championships and the heisman and a 37-2 college record is much more impressive then what Young has done thus far. In my opinion.

I don't think I was hinting at all. Yes, Carr will ALWAYS be an average QB. That based upon his demeanor, attitude, etc., and just the way he performs when I see him play. Can a team still be successful w/ an average QB? Yes. Broncos were "successful" this year, but I dare say that no one will ever say that Plummer is a GREAT QB (not necessarily saying Carr is exactly like Plummer, just that he is a similar type of QB).

tsk...tsk...tsk....ONE BCS National Championship. And if you can honestly say that you would rather have Lienart at the helm of your team than VY, then I can definitely see why you would rather just keep Carr. Based upon the things that I've witnessed VY doing w/ his athletic ability, decision making, leadership, etc...it is VY hands down IMO.
Seemed like Pete Carroll may have thought so too after the Rose Bowl when he said about VY, "There's nobody like this. There's guys who can run, there's guys who can throw, there's quick guys and all that. But nobody's ever been this fast."

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 12:24 AM
repeat....repeat....repeat...No I've heard this argument before and many draft predictors have stated If Young came out he would be taken between the 10 and 15 spot before the rose bowl. There was a national poll taken on espn (After the rose bowl) and the only people that feel Young should be taken #1 (eventually replacing Carr) is people in Texas. People across the county said we would be crazy to take Young.

Again I don't want my franchise nor my head coach making a decision and flipping their draft off one game, which despite what the other horns fans say would be exactly what they would be doing.

You're right here....... but...

but... I've stated many times, I don't see how anyone can project Reggie Bush as the best Running Back in the draft, or as a legitimate #1 overall, when every report has him returning punts, and working out of the backfield, more than from the backfield, as a running back. If he's supposed to be the next Ladainian Tomlinson, then I could understand, but he's supposed to be the next Michael Westbrook, and I'm just not seeing using the #1 overall to get the next Westbrook.

AustinJB
01-23-2006, 12:29 AM
Again I don't want my franchise nor my head coach making a decision and flipping their draft off one game, which despite what the other horns fans say would be exactly what they would be doing.

What are you talking about? How would they be flipping their draft after one game? I dare say that there was never a concrete decision to draft Bush....at least not by the organization, maybe by some fans. The organization may have been leaning towards a certain decision, but you don't make a final decision until you have ALL of the facts and factors. That ONE game just happens to be part of the equation.

How can you "flip the draft" when McNair, Casserly & co. have all said that nothing is set. We didn't even have a coach!!

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 12:33 AM
What are you talking about? How would they be flipping their draft after one game? I dare say that there was never a concrete decision to draft Bush....at least not by the organization, maybe by some fans. The organization may have been leaning towards a certain decision, but you don't make a final decision until you have ALL of the facts and factors. That ONE game just happens to be part of the equation.

How can you "flip the draft" when McNair, Casserly & co. have all said that nothing is set. We didn't even have a coach!!


And that decision won't be made, until the final seconds on the clock after Tagliabooboo anounces "The Houston Texans are on the clock"

Carr Bombed
01-23-2006, 12:34 AM
and working out of the backfield, more than from the backfield, as a running back. Does that even make sense. Again I'm not a Bush guy...I'm not a Vince guy....I'm a best for team guy and regardless what you say drafting Vince would be a reach

thunderkyss
01-23-2006, 12:36 AM
Everybody says he'll be a reciever more than he'll be a back. I'm saying if that's the case, then why don't we just get a reciever.

Carr Bombed
01-23-2006, 12:38 AM
What are you talking about? How would they be flipping their draft after one game? I dare say that there was never a concrete decision to draft Bush....at least not by the organization, maybe by some fans. Umm......I hate to tell you this BUT....everytime he have brought in a Head Coach canidate they've been doing nothing but reviewing Bush game tape. Thus before this game their mind was set and after this game I don't think they've changed their mind.

Nighthawk
01-23-2006, 12:42 AM
First of all I'm sick of the zero leadership posts. Lets see Carr was put behind the worst offensive line in NFL history, its kinda hard to lead a team down the field when you can't even get off your back.

Maybe Carr looks like a whiner because all his defenders are whiners! Oh, poor Davy. Fall on his back alla time. No line. No receivers. No running game. Hey! Line In The Sand Guy! Wake the freak up! Put a stopwatch on Ben Rothlisbergeron and see him get the ball out in 2 secs time after time. And when he HAS time, he has 3.5-4 seconds. Give Carr the same amt of time and he's still pulling up his drawers!

When the meat hits the road I believe the Texans will take Vince Young. He's the IMPACT PLAYER you can't pass up.

texplayer2
01-23-2006, 12:47 AM
Seemed like Pete Carroll may have thought so too after the Rose Bowl when he said about VY, "There's nobody like this. There's guys who can run, there's guys who can throw, there's quick guys and all that. But nobody's ever been this fast."

Pete Carroll, unlike his young QB, was being a good loser. You can't say much after a loss in the Big Game on Campus. I don't truly believe he meant that as a line on Vince Young's resume as being better than Lienert at the next level. Both are going to be good prospects. All this talk about Vince Superman Young being "IT" have to do with circumstances, not just his ability. Good O-line, and TIMELY Defensive stop won the Rose Bowl. He and Lienert had good games and they both also had REAL GOOD TEAMS. Give Lienert the ball and 1 or 2 min. down by 5-6 pts. and the EXACT SAME thing could have happened. Ask Notre Dame 4th and 9 goes for Sixty.(COLLEGE FOOTBALL)

Carr Bombed
01-23-2006, 12:50 AM
Maybe Carr looks like a whiner because all his defenders are whiners! Oh, poor Davy. Fall on his back alla time. No line. No receivers. No running game. Hey! Line In The Sand Guy! Wake the freak up! Put a stopwatch on Ben Rothlisbergeron and see him get the ball out in 2 secs time after time. And when he HAS time, he has 3.5-4 seconds. Give Carr the same amt of time and he's still pulling up his drawers!

When the meat hits the road I believe the Texans will take Vince Young. He's the IMPACT PLAYER you can't pass up.Hahahaha....your funny. Its been a couple of hours since you posted on this topic, did it take that long for this response. Ben Rothlisberger getting the ball out in 2 secs, thats a joke,(isn't it, I mean it has to be) I taped the game and have reviewed it. Ben only having 2 sec. to throw.....hmm....not likely. Im not even going to respond to this. Again Ben only having 2 sec. to throw, I had a crappy christmas...thanks for the laugh. Hahahaha

AustinJB
01-23-2006, 12:55 AM
Hahahaha....your funny. Its been a couple of hours since you posted on this topic, did it take that long for this response. Ben Rothlisberger getting the ball out in 2 secs, thats a joke,(isn't it, I mean it has to be) I taped the game and have reviewed it. Ben only having 2 sec. to throw.....hmm....not likely. Im not even going to respond to this. Again Ben only having 2 sec. to throw, I had a crappy christmas...thanks for the laugh. Hahahaha

Whatever...maybe so, haven't reviewed it that close. But can you honestly tell me that Carr would have made the play that Ben did when he was rolling to his left (under pressure) and threw a perfect pass over three defenders for a TD? Lord knows, Carr has had plenty of chances (given that he is always on the run) to make a similar play. I don't remember one...do you?

kbourda
01-23-2006, 12:56 AM
Pete Carroll, unlike his young QB, was being a good loser. You can't say much after a loss in the Big Game on Campus. I don't truly believe he meant that as a line on Vince Young's resume as being better than Lienert at the next level. Both are going to be good prospects. All this talk about Vince Superman Young being "IT" have to do with circumstances, not just his ability. Good O-line, and TIMELY Defensive stop won the Rose Bowl. He and Lienert had good games and they both also had REAL GOOD TEAMS. Give Lienert the ball and 1 or 2 min. down by 5-6 pts. and the EXACT SAME thing could have happened. Ask Notre Dame 4th and 9 goes for Sixty.(COLLEGE FOOTBALL)

If you are going to say that, Leinart had the ball to basically kill the Longhorns chance of even winning. Did he pull it off?

AustinJB
01-23-2006, 12:57 AM
If you are going to say that, Leinart had the ball to basically kill the Longhorns chance of even winning. Did he pull it off?

Yeah, seems like he came up w/ a 4th and 2 during his chance to be the hero.

kbourda
01-23-2006, 12:58 AM
Does that even make sense. Again I'm not a Bush guy...I'm not a Vince guy....I'm a best for team guy and regardless what you say drafting Vince would be a reach

A Reach? Wow. Are you willing to give the man any credit?

Carr Bombed
01-23-2006, 01:06 AM
A Reach? Wow. Are you willing to give the man any credit? By "the man" I"m assuming you mean Young. Yes like I said before I'm a UT fan and Yes Young deserves much credit, buy before "the game" many believed Leinart deserved alot of credit, but soon after many are acting like he never played college ball.

Young was a GREAT GREAT player I just think he would be a reach at the pro level.

AustinJB
01-23-2006, 01:25 AM
By "the man" I"m assuming you mean Young. Yes like I said before I'm a UT fan and Yes Young deserves much credit, buy before "the game" many believed Leinart deserved alot of credit, but soon after many are acting like he never played college ball.

Young was a GREAT GREAT player I just think he would be a reach at the pro level.

I find it hard to believe that a UT fan (who should have seen all of VY's games) thinks that VY would be a reach in the pro level. What makes him "a reach?"

Is it his 6'5 230lb. NFL frame?
Is it his 4.4 (unofficial until pro day) speed?
Is it his 65.2 comp%?
Is it his ungodly athletic ability?
Is it his 'always have fun, be cool and poised no matter what the situation' demeanor?
Is it his leadership and teamwork skills?
Is it his ability to read defenses?
Is it his 3/4 throwing motion?
Is it his inexperience taking the snap from behind the center as opposed to shotgun?

If you're worried about the throwing motion and snaps behind center, those are technical issues that coaching will be able to correct. EVERY college QB has SOME "weakness" that they have to work on once they enter the NFL. Do you honestly think VY isn't smart enough to learn and improve on these things? Do you think he isn't talented enought to adjust to taking the snap a different way? Please! He improved his passing in the off-season working w/ his young recievers virtually by himself. The coaches were not even allowed to work w/ them when VY and others decided to improve their game. W/ all his physical qualities and this determination and work ethic...what makes him a reach?

He is no more of a reach than any other college player coming into the NFL IMO.:twocents:

TEXANRED
01-23-2006, 08:53 AM
How fast is a 300 pound QB going to be in the NFL? 230? Who are they trying to kid. Seriously. Have you seen him lately? They had him on TV when he was signing autographs this weekend($75.00 a pop, $100.00 for a picture. Talk about cashing in on being a hometown hero, not even an NFL QB) he looked like he was about to eat the reporters fingers.

Hey, I know, maybe in all his greatness he is bulking to be his own O-line. He is going to hike himself the ball, throw himself the ball, hand the ball off to himself. He may even play a little linebacker or DT.

If the Youngers on the board are serious about Carr not being able to cut it(and I disagree) then from a talent, leader, winner standpoint, then Lienart is or should be our only real choice. But thats my opinion.

whiskeyrbl
01-23-2006, 09:34 AM
Man these post get more hilarious everyday.Reggie,Vince,Matt.Who cares all are POTENTIAL and i repeat POTENTIAL NFL standouts.How can ya"ll seriously sit here and say any of them can come in and SAVE the Texans.In college you may have 3-5 probable nfl picks on a team.The NFl is full of College greats.My meaning is in college you may have to beat 1 or 2 guys tto go all the way.In the NFL you have to get past 11.The talent in the NFl can make some College standouts look like sandlot players with no buisness being in uniform.:brickwall As far as the QB debate.Carr has not looked that good,most of the time.But i cannot start to count how many times i watched Carr drop back on a 3 step drop and not even be able to setup because a defender was already in his face.Nobody and i mean nobody can perform in those circumstances.Give him protection and a couple more weapons,and you will be praying at Carrs feet.:stirpot: