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HoustonFrog
01-20-2006, 12:27 PM
I was listening to them on 610 this morning and I only got the end of it but they were talking draft scenarios. They mentioned trading down to 4th and picking up that #1, the next years #1 and maybe a 2nd (I think this is what they said). You use this on Hawk. Then you package the 2nd rounder and your second rounder to move up and take Pope at TE. So essentially you get Hawk, Pope and hopefully a high first rounder next year(since they would have a new coach/QB) and then you can try and take Quinn or Adrian Peterson, etc. Anyone like this scenario?

infantrycak
01-20-2006, 12:39 PM
While I want the Texans to get a good TE this off-season, I don't like the idea of trading the 2 2nds to force Pope in when Lewis and or other TE's will be available in the draft.

Consider whether Pope is better than two of: Mercedes Lewis, Winston Justice, Abdul Hodge, Daryn Colledge, Darnell Bing or similar players.

HoustonFrog
01-20-2006, 12:45 PM
While I want the Texans to get a good TE this off-season, I don't like the idea of trading the 2 2nds to force Pope in when Lewis and or other TE's will be available in the draft.

Consider whether Pope is better than two of: Mercedes Lewis, Winston Justice, Abdul Hodge, Daryn Colledge, Darnell Bing or similar players.

I agree and there maybe an outside shot that he drops to #33 anyways depending on how things pan out. Doubtful but maybe. I think the second round is still full of talent and you can find the O-linemen you are looking for or another TE.

MorKnolle
01-20-2006, 12:46 PM
While I want the Texans to get a good TE this off-season, I don't like the idea of trading the 2 2nds to force Pope in when Lewis and or other TE's will be available in the draft.

Consider whether Pope is better than two of: Mercedes Lewis, Winston Justice, Abdul Hodge, Daryn Colledge, Darnell Bing or similar players.

Agreed, I am in favor of trading down (Jets would be a great choice for at least a first trade down), but I don't like the picks you suggested. Trading two of the top four picks in the 2nd round for a TE would be a bad mistake, for one there will be many very capable TEs available at the top of the 2nd round anyways, and I do not even like taking a TE with one of those, much less trading both of them off to move up a bit for one (rememer the Babin trade two years back when we sent a bunch of picks off to get him when he would have been available where our 2nd rounder was anyways, and if he somehow wasn't someone just as capable would have been there). I also don't overly want us to take A.J. Hawk, especially at the #4 pick. I think he will be a solid NFL LB but you have to be a very special LB to be picked in the top 8 and I don't see him as being that good, plus we need to go after offensive players with our high picks, the only exception would be to get a good 4-3 DE if we do switch to a 4-3 or else for a good CB/S, otherwise we need to use two high picks on OLine, then one of them on a DE/CB/S, then maybe look for a TE and/or LB, so I would prefer to see us not go after TE/LB until at least the 3rd round, depending of course on what we do with the #1. If we draft Bush at #1 we need to use at least the 2nd and one 3rd on OL, then go from there, but if we trade down and grab OL/DE with our 1st and acquire additional 2nd or 3rd round picks then we can look at a LB/TE ealier in the draft once we get those other needs addressed.

TheOgre
01-20-2006, 12:54 PM
You missed the conversation. Lance was talking about trading down with the Jets to get their 1st and 2nd this year and a 1st next year. Here is how he mapped it out:

Trade our 1st to Jets for their 2006 1st and 2nd and 2007 1st.

1st (#4-Jets) AJ Hawk

Then we try to trade back into the 1st to get a TE (Leonard Pope or Marcedes Lewis). He suggested we could do it with one of our two 2nds (now that we have the Jets too) and either a 3rd or 4th. Looking at the value chart, we could move up to Tampa Bay's 1st if we gave them our 2nd and 3rd.

Trade out 2nd(1) and 3rd(1) to Tampa Bay for their 1st(22)

1st(#4-Jets) AJ Hawk
1st (#22-Bucs) Leonard Pope
We would still have the Jets 2nd (#7) to take an O-lineman as well as the Saints 3rd (#2) and our own 4th (#1). Additionally, we would have two 1st in 2007 (ours and the Jets). That would give us two good shots at a top 10 pick next year. We might be able to make a run at Adrian Peterson or Brady Quinn by packaging those picks.

This isn't my take. This is what Lance Z. basically broke down (although he didn't specifically target Tampa Bay as a trading partner).

Bubbajwp
01-20-2006, 12:55 PM
IMO the only TE worth trading for is Vernon Davis.

MorKnolle
01-20-2006, 12:59 PM
You missed the conversation. Lance was talking about trading down with the Jets to get their 1st and 2nd this year and a 1st next year. Here is how he mapped it out:

Trade our 1st to Jets for their 2006 1st and 2nd and 2007 1st.

1st (#4-Jets) AJ Hawk

Then we try to trade back into the 1st to get a TE (Leonard Pope or Marcedes Lewis). He suggested we could do it with one of our two 2nds (now that we have the Jets too) and either a 3rd or 4th. Looking at the value chart, we could move up to Tampa Bay's 1st if we gave them our 2nd and 3rd.

Trade out 2nd(1) and 3rd(1) to Tampa Bay for their 1st(22)

1st(#4-Jets) AJ Hawk
1st (#22-Bucs) Leonard Pope
We would still have the Jets 2nd (#7) to take an O-lineman as well as the Saints 3rd (#2) and our own 4th (#1). Additionally, we would have two 1st in 2007 (ours or the Jets). That would give us two good shots at a top 10 pick next year. We might be able to make a run at Adrian Peterson or Brady Quinn by packaging those picks.

This isn't my take. This is what Lance Z. basically broke down (although he didn't specifically target Tampa Bay as a trading partner).

Thanks for clarifying, I missed that part of the broadcast, and I'm with you that it doesn't sound like a real good plan. As I previously said, I don't like Hawk all that much and would use a #4 on hardly any LB, definitely not one in this draft with the other players available. I also don't see the point in giving up our top 3rd round pick to move up 8 spots and grab a TE when several good ones will be available and that #65 pick will be quite valuable too. I for one don't see TE as that big of a necessity (relative to other needs on our team) that I'd spend anything above a 3rd round pick on one this year, with this draft class, and with our team being the way it currently is.

BuffSoldier
01-20-2006, 12:59 PM
I like the trade down idea, but if we trade down for anyone, then I think we trade down to 4 and pick D.Ferguson help stabablize the o-line. There are alot of people who think that Ferguson is over-rated, but there i not one supposed draft expert that doesnt say he is a rare talent at the position and will be a franchise LT.

Oh and about the trading up. I personally do not believe in trading away 2 player for one. If we had 2 second rounders, then we could possibly wait for one of the top 3 TEs to fall or wate until the third and take Anthony Fasano from Notre Dame. At most I would trade back up into the second if I didnt think that he would fall that far.

Blake
01-20-2006, 12:59 PM
Ive run across this idea as well. I even have a thread about it, but I think the best idea is to see who falls to you. We have a very good draft class this year, and I would rather have 3 round1 graded players, than 2.

Also, I am going with Mario Williams, or D Ferguson in the first.

DE Mario Williams
LT Daryn Colledge
OG Davin Joseph

LT D Ferguson
DT Rod Wright
OG Davin Joseph

HoustonFrog
01-20-2006, 01:01 PM
Thanks for clearing that up Ogre. As I said, I got the tail end of it and just heard him talking about trading with the 2nd and thought he meant both of them.

swtbound07
01-20-2006, 01:01 PM
i may be in the minority here, but with the glut of USC games on television, i watched domonique byrd quite a bit, and liked what i saw. He didnt seem to have any problems blocking, and he was an absolute beast when he caught the ball...didnt see him miss too many completions, and he knocked people over. He is probalby gonna be on the board in round 3, and i think that is a good time to address that particular need.

Coach C.
01-20-2006, 01:01 PM
No TE in this draft has looked as athletic as Shockey or K2, for that matter Heath Miller might even be better than most of the high end guys in this draft. Davis is talented that is true, but he is not trade back and get him, especially on a team that really does not need a TE. I understand why you guys say that, but we did not use the TE, and if we decide to do that now, I would believe that a 4-6 round guy would be adequate enough with the TEs that are already on the roster. Plus FA has several TE that were high draft picks that will get free. Does not seem smart to waste a high pick on a TE.

tulexan
01-20-2006, 01:05 PM
No TE in this draft has looked as athletic as Shockey or K2, for that matter Heath Miller might even be better than most of the high end guys in this draft. Davis is talented that is true, but he is not trade back and get him, especially on a team that really does not need a TE. I understand why you guys say that, but we did not use the TE, and if we decide to do that now, I would believe that a 4-6 round guy would be adequate enough with the TEs that are already on the roster. Plus FA has several TE that were high draft picks that will get free. Does not seem smart to waste a high pick on a TE.


That is not true. Vernon Davis is faster and stronger than Shockey and K2. I believe he has almost all of the weight room records at Maryland and he runs a 4.4

HoustonFrog
01-20-2006, 01:05 PM
Ive run across this idea as well. I even have a thread about it, but I think the best idea is to see who falls to you. We have a very good draft class this year, and I would rather have 3 round1 graded players, than 2.

Also, I am going with Mario Williams, or D Ferguson in the first.

DE Mario Williams
LT Daryn Colledge
OG Davin Joseph

LT D Ferguson
DT Rod Wright
OG Davin Joseph


As for Ferguson, what about the rap that he had an inconsistent senior year and started getting banged up?I just think with the depth of skill players at the top, this is your shot to take someone that is a playmaker on O or D. Hopefully you won't be spending too much time in this position. Also will Kubiak's (Denver's) way of taking smaller/quicker guys who are late rounder affect the position of taking a big O-lineman that high?That is why I'm not keen on Brick.

Grid
01-20-2006, 01:33 PM
id be more in favor of packaging the second rounds to trade up and grab Ko Simpson or Eric Winston.

Big B Texan Fan
01-20-2006, 01:38 PM
Lance (610) has some kind of man-crush on Pope

TheOgre
01-20-2006, 01:53 PM
The only trade-up scenario I wouldn't mind would be to get New Orleans pick to take Young and Bush (perhaps Carr, DD and our 2007 1st?)

Otherwise, I'd hold onto the picks or trade down. This is a very deep draft.

beerlover
01-20-2006, 01:59 PM
The only trade-up scenario I wouldn't mind would be to get New Orleans pick to take Young and Bush (perhaps Carr, DD and our 2007 1st?)

Otherwise, I'd hold onto the picks or trade down. This is a very deep draft.

I'd agree with that- this is going to be such a deep draft, the 2nd rd. pick is just like a 1st and the 3rd's are going be just like 2nd's in most years. I also believe it supports the theory of going with Bush or Young & taking them as your future offensive playmaker, then address your needs in later rounds :twocents:

HoustonFrog
01-20-2006, 02:20 PM
I'd agree with that- this is going to be such a deep draft, the 2nd rd. pick is just like a 1st and the 3rd's are going be just like 2nd's in most years. I also believe it supports the theory of going with Bush or Young & taking them as your future offensive playmaker, then address your needs in later rounds :twocents:

That is what I have been saying too. You can still take Bush and have three top 66 picks which are going to be GOOD players and fill some O-line spots and TE, LB, what have you. You don't have to have either/or but can do both with good drafting.

MorKnolle
01-20-2006, 02:51 PM
Eric Winston would be about the only guy I'd be willing to trade back up and get (we could likely package something to Denver for their #22 pick if he's there) although some mocks now have Winston falling to the 2nd round, but I doubt that happens after all the workouts are done with. Drafting Vince and Reggie would be a huge mistake. For one, we would have to trade off Carr, Davis, and a couple picks, so that would be a huge cap hit and would cost us a lot to bring in one extra pick, plus that really depletes our offense of current talent, meaning Vince will have to start his rookie year and struggle a lot and Bush will have to shoulder a whole lot of the running game, probaly more than he should have to. It puts our offense into the hands of two rookies which is never a good idea, especially when the QB is not realistically going to be ready to be an NFL QB for 1.5 to 2 years and the RB has questions about his durability.

YoungTexanFan
01-20-2006, 02:51 PM
i may be in the minority here, but with the glut of USC games on television, i watched domonique byrd quite a bit, and liked what i saw. He didnt seem to have any problems blocking, and he was an absolute beast when he caught the ball...didnt see him miss too many completions, and he knocked people over. He is probalby gonna be on the board in round 3, and i think that is a good time to address that particular need.


He has a lot of injury concerns, but shows lots of potential. He played on one of the top OL and was a top recieving threat. Same with David Thomas. Both will be available in the later rounds.

swtbound07
01-20-2006, 02:53 PM
Eric Winston would be about the only guy I'd be willing to trade back up and get (we could likely package something to Denver for their #22 pick if he's there) although some mocks now have Winston falling to the 2nd round, but I doubt that happens after all the workouts are done with. Drafting Vince and Reggie would be a huge mistake. For one, we would have to trade off Carr, Davis, and a couple picks, so that would be a huge cap hit and would cost us a lot to bring in one extra pick, plus that really depletes our offense of current talent, meaning Vince will have to start his rookie year and struggle a lot and Bush will have to shoulder a whole lot of the running game, probaly more than he should have to. It puts our offense into the hands of two rookies which is never a good idea, especially when the QB is not realistically going to be ready to be an NFL QB for 1.5 to 2 years and the RB has questions about his durability.


i've said this many times, i DONT WANT eric winston. I only got to see 3 miami games this year (Florida State, V-Tech, and LSU) and every time the QB for miami was under intense pressure...why would i want a lineman that lets his qb get sacked so much. I think florida state tagged him 9 times or something.....there are plenty of o-lineman in this draft, lets get some that protect.

JDizzle
01-20-2006, 03:47 PM
Lance (610) has some kind of man-crush on Pope

So do I ..... *blushes*

It's pretty difficult for me not to drool at the thought of him or Vernon Davis wearing a Texans uni next season. It's nice to see someone from 610 have a man-crush on a player not named Vince Young.

Xman
01-20-2006, 04:30 PM
I would stick at #33 because it is first round talent at second round salary.

Also, there a whole lot of guys that are ranked higher but may fall to us:

TE: I seriously doubt all 3 stud TEs go in the 1st (Mercedes/VDavis/Pope)
OT: Ferguson will on the 1st round without a doubt.
Then there is Winston, McNeil, Justice and Scott that should go in rd1
But, will 5 teams take OTs in the 1st: Maybe not.
(I also like ROT O'Callaghan who has dropped to the 2nd in most mocks)
OG: Jean-Gilles should go right around 33-36.
Other: CB Hill, CB Youbouty, S Simpson, DT Wright, etc.

Why trade up when one of these should fall to us (or 2 if we trade down)?

We will either get a player that slides (a few slide every year) or we can get good value by taking Jean-Gilles. (if we traded down and took JGilles and O'Callaghan the right side of our OL would be set for a long time, add tutui later and LOG would be set also - - these guys are huge and good, however, Kubiak might prefer smaller quicker guys but should get good value on those guys with these picks also)

Now, on the other hand, if Kubiak decided Scott (or someone else) was the perfect OT (or another position for that matter) for his blocking scheme and we could get them, that would be understandable - - - But, otherwise just say NO to another Babin deal.

MorKnolle
01-20-2006, 09:09 PM
i've said this many times, i DONT WANT eric winston. I only got to see 3 miami games this year (Florida State, V-Tech, and LSU) and every time the QB for miami was under intense pressure...why would i want a lineman that lets his qb get sacked so much. I think florida state tagged him 9 times or something.....there are plenty of o-lineman in this draft, lets get some that protect.

Florida State was about his only bad game this year, the rest of the time it was not Winston's fault. Winston is almost if not as athletic as Ferguson, but he's 25 lbs. heavier and can actually withstand a bullrush from a 260 lb. DE unlike Ferguson does half of the time, and he can actually run block, plus he has the best mean streak of any OL in the draft. Right now people still assume that he hasn't recovered from his knee injury just because he didn't look real good that first game of the season when it was still not 100%, but after he puts up 30 some bench reps and runs under a 5.0 40 at the combine he'll fly back up people's draft boards, as they were saying on NFL Network yesterday, and he will reclaim his rightful spot of being the head of the OL class, maybe still a little behind Ferguson because he has generated that much hype throughout the year. Either way I believe both will be at the Senior Bowl this coming week so I should be able to get a decent look at them when I'm down there mid-week for a day or two, so I'll have a better idea then.

swtbound07
01-20-2006, 09:15 PM
Florida State was about his only bad game this year, the rest of the time it was not Winston's fault. Winston is almost if not as athletic as Ferguson, but he's 25 lbs. heavier and can actually withstand a bullrush from a 260 lb. DE unlike Ferguson does half of the time, and he can actually run block, plus he has the best mean streak of any OL in the draft. Right now people still assume that he hasn't recovered from his knee injury just because he didn't look real good that first game of the season when it was still not 100%, but after he puts up 30 some bench reps and runs under a 5.0 40 at the combine he'll fly back up people's draft boards, as they were saying on NFL Network yesterday, and he will reclaim his rightful spot of being the head of the OL class, maybe still a little behind Ferguson because he has generated that much hype throughout the year. Either way I believe both will be at the Senior Bowl this coming week so I should be able to get a decent look at them when I'm down there mid-week for a day or two, so I'll have a better idea then.


i will definitely defer to someone who knows things about techinque and studys winston and ferguson more than i, but i was just expressing what i saw, and winston vs. florida state (one of the better ncaa defenses i would venture to guess) was not impressive. Im not hyping one over the other, i just remember my impression after that game being....wow i dont want to touch any of their lineman

MorKnolle
01-20-2006, 09:27 PM
i will definitely defer to someone who knows things about techinque and studys winston and ferguson more than i, but i was just expressing what i saw, and winston vs. florida state (one of the better ncaa defenses i would venture to guess) was not impressive. Im not hyping one over the other, i just remember my impression after that game being....wow i dont want to touch any of their lineman

Winston didn't have that good of a game that time but it was his first game back from his injury, and he's looked a lot better since. I still don't like Ferguson, he's probably the best pure pass blocker in the draft, but he's small and has trouble gaining/keeping weight, he doesn't handle power pass rushers very well, and he doesn't run block very well and I'd consider him soft. Eric Winston is bigger, just about as athletic, and can run block a lot better while pass blocking about the same, and he has a nice mean streak. He won ACC OLineman of the year over Ferguson, and before his injury he was regarded as the best OLineman in college football. I'll have to see how the workouts and all that go, but I like Winston and I think he'll impress some people in the coming weeks.

TheOgre
01-21-2006, 12:04 PM
That 33rd overall pick is a keeper. We SHOULD get a good starter from that pick. I think all 4 of our first day picks have significant potential. This is the deepest draft this team has seen yet. I would avoid trading up unless there is a player that is rated drastically higher than the rest of the pack.

Toro
01-22-2006, 03:16 AM
The ONLY way I say trade up in to a second first round pick is if by some stroke of good luck, Ferguson or Justice wind up dropping significantly in to the lower half of the first (20ish).

Otherwise, I'd rather just see the Texans stand pat and take Max Jean-Giles of Georgia. He's just as good as anything else they'd have to trade up to get.

texman8
01-22-2006, 05:59 AM
I wouldn't mind a trade down with our #1 and pick up Mario.Then select a lineman and LB with our 2nds; CB and TE in 3rd. Everybody remember CC is stii around....thanks to him we have trade away our 2nd and 3rds last two years. Hopefully,we can keep him away from phones. Also,has anybody notice how poor our first draft was ,especially with all those extra picks?
Our selections will depend on what we do in FA. We haven't done great there,either.....Wade , Greenwood are examples.