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View Full Version : We HAVE the DE's for a 4-3... Here's Why...


HeartofHouston
01-19-2006, 07:49 PM
** Sorry i put this in the reply, but I meant to put it as a new post.. **

Every time people start talkin about us switching the 4-3 then.. somebody says.. "Peek and Babin are big enough to play DEs.." (main Peek being the target for this)

Lets take a look at some of the good NFL Defensive Ends...

Simeon Rice - 6'5, 268
Dwight Freeney - 6'1, 268
Javon Kearse - 6'4, 265
Alex Brown - 6'3, 262
Leonard Little - 6'3, 261
Adewale Ogunleye - 6'4, 260
Terrell Suggs- 6'3, 260
Jason Babin - 6'2, 259
Jason Taylor - 6'6, 255
Antwann Peek - 6'3, 250
Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila - 6'4, 250
John Abraham - 6'4, 248
Robert Mathis - 6'2, 235

Okay.. now here are some of the premier DEs in the NFL.. all of them have posted digits sack numbers and have been very important for their team.. if you look above you see their height and weight also.. Peek and Babin are right in the range of the "average size" DE in the NFL.. Lets say that they both put on 5lbs.. they will both be even better off against the run.. and with the season not starting for another 8 months how hard is it to gain 5 pounds of rip in 8 months???... I'm gonna go with NOT HARD AT ALL.. when i played high school ball (with no personal trainer) I went from 167 my junior year to 198 my senior year.. and trust me it wasnt fat.. I stopped messing around going out and getting in trouble and I went to gym instead.. These guys have personal trainers and conitioning coaches.. so it should be 3times easier for them..

Some all this talk about "we dont have the right DE's, they are undersized mess should cease".. We should put these guys back to what they knew in college and that's being in a 3 point stance letting them get after the QB.. I say we resign Peek for 2 years, put him and Babin at DE.. and draft a good DE.. Kamerion Wimbley, Victor Adeyanju or Daryl Tapp..

Let all three of the battle it out and see who comes out on top. This 3man battle will ignite a fire in our DEs knowing that they really have to get batter in order to start next year. If Peek doesnt add enough wait or doesnt perform as well as people we want him to then he'll be our "Robert Mathis" situational/relief DE.. Tapp, Babin and Peek could be a headache for Offensive linemen..

There you have it..

Coach C.
01-19-2006, 07:51 PM
Why would you start a new post about this rather than just putting it with other posts of the type. This has been discussed and people know that we have guys that can play the position they just need to add weight. We still are missing a stronside everydown DE.

HeartofHouston
01-19-2006, 07:53 PM
I posted this as a new post because not EVERYBODY sees replies.. I want EVERYBDOY to see this post.. so that they can realize what I realize..

texans281
01-19-2006, 08:00 PM
I think Charlie Anderson was a DE in college too so you might want to count him as well.

YodAa
01-19-2006, 08:34 PM
Why would you start a new post about this rather than just putting it with other posts of the type. This has been discussed and people know that we have guys that can play the position they just need to add weight. We still are missing a stronside everydown DE.

The everydown arguements for any position are a bunch of BS arguements made by people that know they're wrong and have to find the tinyest stat, the only one that has a flaw in somebodys plan to try to fool the other person, and more importantly themselves into thinking otherwise. Plus if your so worried about a everydown DE we can just use a bunch of DEs in some sort of substitution system because finding 4-3 DEs is one of the easiest things in football

HeartofHouston
01-19-2006, 09:41 PM
Plus with the DTs that we have will demand double teams leaving or DEs 1 on 1 with Tackles giving them a better chance of a sack/pressure..

Peek and Babin will work at DE..

Grid
01-20-2006, 06:12 AM
Pettway and Orr are also both the right size. And both played DE in College.

aj.
01-20-2006, 06:54 AM
DE isn't a crisis stuation for the Texans if they move to the 4-3. They would need to pick up one more guy that's more of a power end, but between those mentioned above, they would have a really good stable of speed rushing ends. They have a roster full of tackles so you're really only looking to upgrade at one of the positions.

They need a middle linebacker as much as a starting DE. Wong has had mixed results in the middle in his career and Polk is a nice backup. And of course Wong and Greenwood on the outside have those new nice fat contracts...

Grid
01-20-2006, 07:20 AM
Charlie Anderson is the right size to be an ILB as well as Polk.

This is a thin draft at ILB.. Dqwell Jackson and Abdul Hodge are the only ones I see which may be able to come in and win a starting spot...and I wouldnt call either of them elite prospects. It might be a position that we are better off addressing in FA if we switch to the 4-3. Though im not seeing too many options in FA either.. not any really appealing ones anyway. We may have to make due with what we have.

As for DE... its not a bad DE class this year..so we could probably pick up a more prototypical 4-3 DE in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.. what about DTs like Claude Wroten and Brodrick Bunkley though? they are both undersized DTs.. possibly could be moved to DE? maybe provide depth at DT too.

aj.
01-20-2006, 07:46 AM
Disagree totally on Anderson inside. He's very Peek-ish in his physical attributes and how he plays. You need someone with a little lower cg in the middle.

Grid
01-20-2006, 08:02 AM
I agree that he is very "peek-ish".. I wouldnt mind seeing how he handled ILB though. Never know.. he may take to it like a duck to water.

Erratic Assassin
01-20-2006, 08:38 AM
somebody says.. "Peek and Babin aren't big enough to play DEs.." (main Peek being the target for this)

Lets take a look at some of the good NFL Defensive Ends...

Simeon Rice - 6'5, 268
Dwight Freeney - 6'1, 268
Javon Kearse - 6'4, 265
Alex Brown - 6'3, 262
Leonard Little - 6'3, 261
Adewale Ogunleye - 6'4, 260
Terrell Suggs- 6'3, 260
Jason Babin - 6'2, 259
Jason Taylor - 6'6, 255
Antwann Peek - 6'3, 250
Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila - 6'4, 250
John Abraham - 6'4, 248
Robert Mathis - 6'2, 235

Reminds me of the "Domanick Davis/ Reggie Bush is too small to play RB in the NFL" talk.

One time, years ago somebody posted the sizes of great NFL running backs and it was shocking how small these guys are. Start your list with Walter Payton and Emmitt Smith and go from there. So how Domanick Davis measures up.

Long Baller
01-20-2006, 12:22 PM
Reminds me of the "Domanick Davis/ Reggie Bush is too small to play RB in the NFL" talk.

One time, years ago somebody posted the sizes of great NFL running backs and it was shocking how small these guys are. Start your list with Walter Payton and Emmitt Smith and go from there. So how Domanick Davis measures up.

Here is a short list I put together for a post on Bush as an everydown back.
Tiki 5-10, 200 lbs
LT 5-10, 221 lbs
Portis 5-11, 212 lbs
Barry 5-8, 200 lbs
Emmitt 5-10, 216 lbs
Curtis Martin 5-11, 210 lbs
Faulk 5-10, 211 lbs
Priest 5-9, 213 lbs

Bubbajwp
01-20-2006, 12:48 PM
DE isn't a crisis stuation for the Texans if they move to the 4-3. They would need to pick up one more guy that's more of a power end, but between those mentioned above, they would have a really good stable of speed rushing ends. They have a roster full of tackles so you're really only looking to upgrade at one of the positions.

They need a middle linebacker as much as a starting DE. Wong has had mixed results in the middle in his career and Polk is a nice backup. And of course Wong and Greenwood on the outside have those new nice fat contracts...
I would add kai parham.

nunusguy
01-20-2006, 01:00 PM
I think Charlie Anderson was a DE in college too so you might want to count him as well.
They don't call guys like Anderson "tweeners" for nothing. They are smallish
college DEs who are simply too small to be NFL DEs and not quick enough to
be backers in the 4-3, but the stuff of successful OLBs in the 3-4.
260-265 is probably marginal for 4-3 DEs, unless the undersized player is
off the chart athletically like a Dwight Freeney. Without considering other
qualifications, Babin would therefor be marginal size wise, but players like Anderson & Peek appear to be too small to even be considered as "every down" DEs in a 4-3.

Runner
01-20-2006, 01:00 PM
Disagree totally on Anderson inside. He's very Peek-ish in his physical attributes and how he plays. You need someone with a little lower cg in the middle.

Agreed. If you look at Anderson standing with the other linebackers it looks like he has really long legs.

Grid
01-20-2006, 01:17 PM
They don't call guys like Anderson "tweeners" for nothing. They are smallish
college DEs who are simply too small to be NFL DEs and not quick enough to
be backers in the 4-3, but the stuff of successful OLBs in the 3-4.
260-265 is probably marginal for 4-3 DEs, unless the undersized player is
off the chart athletically like a Dwight Freeney. Without considering other
qualifications, Babin would therefor be marginal size wise, but players like Anderson & Peek appear to be too small to even be considered as "every down" DEs in a 4-3.

I dont think there is any denying that we would need to pick up AT LEAST one more traditional 4-3 DE. I just dont think we are totally unsuited to switch to a 4-3. I think we have about as much 4-3 talent as we do 3-4 talent.

Erratic Assassin
01-20-2006, 08:21 PM
Here is a short list I put together for a post on Bush as an everydown back.
Tiki 5-10, 200 lbs
LT 5-10, 221 lbs
Portis 5-11, 212 lbs
Barry 5-8, 200 lbs
Emmitt 5-10, 216 lbs
Curtis Martin 5-11, 210 lbs
Faulk 5-10, 211 lbs
Priest 5-9, 213 lbs

Thanks Long Baller.

I wonder how many people would still argue that Barry Sanders was too small to play in the NFL at a tiny 5' 8" and 200 lbs.

YoungTexanFan
01-20-2006, 08:50 PM
Thanks Long Baller.

I wonder how many people would still argue that Barry Sanders was too small to play in the NFL at a tiny 5' 8" and 200 lbs.

how does everything get turned into a reggie bush argument?

this post is about 4-3 DE's and our need if we switch.


On topic, we really do need a DE who can stop the run AND rush the passer. Peek is on the edge of traditional size that has some concerned about his ability to hold up at the POA. Peek lacks run stopping ability, period. A Mario/Kiwi would be able to do both, including get after the QB better than Peek.

An upgrade is a big concern for me if we switch to the 4-3. Peek COULD work, but I would not want him in there full time.

Grid
01-20-2006, 09:20 PM
Mario/Kiwi would be able to do both, including get after the QB better than Peek.

MARIO!!! :) We need mario! M-A-R-I-O!!

seriously though.. he has been called the best DE since Julius Peppers. If we go to a 4-3.. Mario Williams may be the guy we should set our sights on in the first. Maybe the Jets would trade with us.

big homey
01-20-2006, 11:16 PM
Most DE's are in that 260-280 lb. range, so Babin would likely have the easiest transition. I don't see Peek or Anderson putting on that much weight so quickly, they might end up as specialty pass rushers.

Also, to Grid, how can I get that avatar?

infantrycak
01-21-2006, 01:02 AM
Thanks Long Baller.

I wonder how many people would still argue that Barry Sanders was too small to play in the NFL at a tiny 5' 8" and 200 lbs.

Now I am not actually in the Bush is too small camp. In fact, I have put together the RB size comparisons for DD for a couple years--with the point being size is overrated. While there is a significant difference IMO between 5' 8" and 200 lbs and 6' 200 lbs (the equivalent 6'er should have about 220 lbs to have the same thickness and LT and DD both weigh 220 lbs at 5' 9" so Bush would need to be 230 lbs+ to have the same kind of frame) my concern with Bush is running style. There was a great interview with Bettis on today about Willie Parker. Bettis advised him that while in college you can run to the outside to run outside, in the NFL you have to run to the inside to get outside. I will be 100% behind Bush to make that transition if the Texans draft him, but unlike Emmitt, Barry, LT and other backs of similar size, Bush comes out of college with the least track record of running in the middle. I certainly won't say he can't--it just worries me.

Double Barrel
01-21-2006, 01:11 AM
I'd have no problem trading down and getting Mario Williams in the deal. Doubt it'll happen, but man, having a dominant defensive linemen would be sweet business.

I'm not convinced we have the players right now for a solid 4-3. Peek seems to have a little more ability to break through offensive linemen, but it doesn't seem consistent enough.

Babin...maybe. He does have the instinct from playing in college, but his penetration is suspect, too. Being hurt last year didn't give us a full picture of what he could be capable of (especially run stopping), so I hope he's healthy and ready this year to prove himself.

Grid
01-21-2006, 06:33 AM
Also, to Grid, how can I get that avatar?

Well I asked Jerek if I could use it..it is his originally :). I imagine he probably wouldnt mind you using it to.

To use it.. you right click on the picture and hit "save picture as"..and then save the picture in like your "my pictures" folder in your "my documents" folder.

Then you go to your "User CP" here on the board.. and go to the place where you select your avatar.. then down at the bottom there is a place where you can upload your own picture. Go there.. click the "browse" button and select the picture from your "My Pictures" folder and then save it.

ComstockLode
01-21-2006, 12:36 PM
They may have the size, but that doesnt change that they would suck in the 4-3. If they cant get a good pass rush out of the 3-4 how do you expect them to off of the line of scrimmage. Both would be overmatched.

We might have a big need to try and pick up a pass rushing DE in the draft as well.

Good gawd we have alot of holes.

keyfro
01-21-2006, 02:26 PM
the main question about babin and peek at DE isn't their ability to be pass rushers from a 3-point stance instead of a 2-point...it's there ability to take on blockers and be efficient run stoppers...that's why we are needing a traditional DE...a guy who is about 275lbs who also be a decent pass rusher...there are several guys in the draft that can do this...there is also a lot of FA's that can be those guys for us as well

1-3
01-21-2006, 03:15 PM
They may have the size, but that doesnt change that they would suck in the 4-3.

Thanks for saving me a couple of paragraphs.

ComstockLode
01-21-2006, 05:46 PM
Thanks for saving me a couple of paragraphs.

Alot of the posters crack me up. Neither babin nor peek would start for any team in the NFL.... They are not good

Grid
01-21-2006, 07:04 PM
furthermore.. no one on our team would start in the nfl.. the world is going to end.. and we are all going to die horrible and painful deaths.

Have some faith :)..at least see how they play before ya damn them to sucktitude. We WERE under a bad coaching staff last season.

big homey
01-21-2006, 09:28 PM
They may have the size, but that doesnt change that they would suck in the 4-3. If they cant get a good pass rush out of the 3-4 how do you expect them to off of the line of scrimmage. Both would be overmatched.

We might have a big need to try and pick up a pass rushing DE in the draft as well.

Good gawd we have alot of holes.
It's a little premature to say they suck...

It's a lot easier to get leverage and explosion off of a 3-point stance, especially with a small guy, so a 4-3 would actually help.

ComstockLode
01-22-2006, 02:01 AM
furthermore.. no one on our team would start in the nfl.. the world is going to end.. and we are all going to die horrible and painful deaths.

Have some faith :)..at least see how they play before ya damn them to sucktitude. We WERE under a bad coaching staff last season.

Did I not tell you this last season. Yall joked and made the same type comments. What happened? Oh thats right worst team in the NFL.

This team better make some big moves besides coaching, or we will be in the same exact boat.

The coaching wasnt great, but the talent on the team is not there. At no position on defense besides Gary Walker/Robaire Smith at DT, and Dunta Robinson at corner would any other team in the NFL want any of our defensive players? The answer is obviously NO. Everyone else is below average.

ComstockLode
01-22-2006, 02:03 AM
It's a little premature to say they suck...

It's a lot easier to get leverage and explosion off of a 3-point stance, especially with a small guy, so a 4-3 would actually help.


The 3-4 makes it easier for rushers because the offensive linemen dont know where the rushers are coming from. The 4-3 simplifies it for the linemen.

And if you dont think the two pass rushers dont suck, then put the either of the two players and see what 7th round pick you might be able to pick up.

Could we be realistic please....

Scooter
01-22-2006, 07:44 AM
The 3-4 makes it easier for rushers because the offensive linemen dont know where the rushers are coming from. The 4-3 simplifies it for the linemen.

that's why our 3-4 scheme has lead the league in sacks? steve foley gets 1 sack in houston and then 10 the next year in san diego. babin got 4 last year & 4 year this year (playing fewer games) on the worst pass rushing team in football for the last four years, just think what he could do with real coaching. marlon mcree is holding down center field in an nfc championship game, and sharper would be starting for the other team. apparently it's something in the dom capers gaterade that's making these guys better as anything but a texan. since babin, peek, & orr have solid stats comparitively (for being on the texans), lets see what happens when we fix what's broke before we call everyone a bust.

infantrycak
01-22-2006, 09:40 AM
The coaching wasnt great, but the talent on the team is not there. At no position on defense besides Gary Walker/Robaire Smith at DT, and Dunta Robinson at corner would any other team in the NFL want any of our defensive players? The answer is obviously NO. Everyone else is below average.

That's just a silly statement. Payne, Wong, Greenwood, TJ would all get picked up almost instantly and probably as starters by some team. Polk, Babin, Peek, Buchanon, Faggins, Orr would all get picked up as at least situational players and several would get shots at starting positions. Earl and Brown would almost certainly get picked up as reserve/developmental players and possibly even compete to start. All you have to do is look at Foley, McCree and Wright to see discards from the Texans (a) will get picked up elsewhere and (b) often perform substantially better under different coaching.

Grid
01-22-2006, 09:46 AM
Did I not tell you this last season. Yall joked and made the same type comments. What happened? Oh thats right worst team in the NFL.

This team better make some big moves besides coaching, or we will be in the same exact boat.

The coaching wasnt great, but the talent on the team is not there. At no position on defense besides Gary Walker/Robaire Smith at DT, and Dunta Robinson at corner would any other team in the NFL want any of our defensive players? The answer is obviously NO. Everyone else is below average.

Infantry said it better than I could.. but I also wanted to point out that if you say everyone sucks and they all need to be replaced and we arent going to get anywhere with these players..every offseason.. eventually, you will probably be right. Just cause your time to be right happened this year, that doesnt mean everything you say is gospel truth. I think any intelligent person would agree that we shouldnt pass judgement on all of our players until they get a look under the new staff, in the new system.

Grid
01-22-2006, 10:04 AM
Could we be realistic please....

Sure.

This years top 5 sack leaders.

Seattle (4-3)
Miami (4-3)
Pittsburgh
Jacksonville (4-3)
Indianapolis (4-3)

Last Years

Atlanta (4-3)
Philly (4-3)
Indianapolis (4-3)
Buffalo
New England

2003

Baltimore
NYG (4-3)
Miami (4-3)
San Fran (4-3)
St. Louis (4-3)

2002

Philly (4-3)
Carolina (4-3)
Pittsburgh
Miami (4-3)
Atlanta (4-3)


Id say the 4-3 is a good system for producing the pass rush.

Coach C.
01-22-2006, 10:06 AM
Honestly it does not matter so much on your base defensive set as far as producing sacks or pressure. It is more on the philosophy of your Defense. The 4-3 and the 3-4 produce sacks. I am not upset about the switch to 4-3 and I think it will do well for us, but I also have a deep affection and intimate knowledge of the 3-4 and understand how well it works. There is a reason why almost every team in the league runs a decent amount of both.

Grid
01-22-2006, 10:10 AM
Honestly it does not matter so much on your base defensive set as far as producing sacks or pressure. It is more on the philosophy of your Defense. The 4-3 and the 3-4 produce sacks. I am not upset about the switch to 4-3 and I think it will do well for us, but I also have a deep affection and intimate knowledge of the 3-4 and understand how well it works. There is a reason why almost every team in the league runs a decent amount of both.

Well sure.. im sure with the players we have.. we will probably run a decent amount of both as well..even if we switch to a 4-3. I was just pointing out that there is no evidence to back up the opinion that the 3-4 is a better pass rushing defense :)

Personally I hope we get Bates and go 4-3. Seeing some of these 4-3 teams lately.. they are exciting to watch..the way they rush the passer. I love a fast defense.

Erratic Assassin
01-22-2006, 11:58 AM
I seriously doubt we will ever read headlines about Jason Babin terrorizing NFL QBs.

Does anyone in here honestly imagine offensive coordinators gameplanning on how to stop Babin? Does any picture him drawing double-teams, etc?

You've seen him play. You tell me.

Coach C.
01-22-2006, 12:02 PM
No, but I can see him at 265 being a solid guy. Similar to Aaron Kampman or even at best the guy from Tennessee.

bigTEXan8
01-22-2006, 12:07 PM
I seriously doubt we will ever read headlines about Jason Babin terrorizing NFL QBs.

Does anyone in here honestly imagine offensive coordinators gameplanning on how to stop Babin? Does any picture him drawing double-teams, etc?

You've seen him play. You tell me.

We've seen him play in a position he was never meant to play in. Babin was a DE in college, and was pretty good at it. He explodes better out of the stance than he does standing up, my personal opinion. He was a bum rusher in college, just explode into people. He's got the speed to get around people, and the stength to push people around. I think that as a LB, he was hampered because an o-lineman was able to to gain the leverage needed to keep Babin at home, that and a bad shoulder never helps. JMO.

ComstockLode
01-22-2006, 01:25 PM
We've seen him play in a position he was never meant to play in. Babin was a DE in college, and was pretty good at it. He explodes better out of the stance than he does standing up, my personal opinion. He was a bum rusher in college, just explode into people. He's got the speed to get around people, and the stength to push people around. I think that as a LB, he was hampered because an o-lineman was able to to gain the leverage needed to keep Babin at home, that and a bad shoulder never helps. JMO.

Babin was on a western Michigan team... And the reason we reached for him so early was that we thought he was the 3-4 OLB who would be able to pressure QBs.

ComstockLode
01-22-2006, 01:32 PM
Infantry said it better than I could.. but I also wanted to point out that if you say everyone sucks and they all need to be replaced and we arent going to get anywhere with these players..every offseason.. eventually, you will probably be right. Just cause your time to be right happened this year, that doesnt mean everything you say is gospel truth. I think any intelligent person would agree that we shouldnt pass judgement on all of our players until they get a look under the new staff, in the new system.

I was not saying that this past offseason. I thought we had a great mix of young players and veteran leadership. I was that guy pissed because of the loss of glenn and sharper and the acquistions of greenwood and buchanon. Look it up. I thought it was a horrible idea to just toss those players and move on. So your theory about me thinking we have a horrible team every year is wrong. But I guess you could say every offseason that this team will magically turn it around and become a playoff team as well....

Please Please look at it from another team's perspective. Right now we have 4 DT's tying up boatloads of money. In my opinion Payne needs to go especially because he is such an injury risk. You can rotate the other three. Right now we dont have a strongside DE on this team at all. Babin and Peek are both pass rushing weakside DE's but I am willing to bet neither will do anything ever in the NFL as a DE. They are below average.

Our linebackers are horrible at this point. Greenwood is an OLB in the 4-3 and that is all we have. Wong might be decent, but he is no gamebreaker by any means. So in our front 7 we dont have any gamebreakers whatsoever.

We drafted a DT last year, which now looks horrible considering we now have no DE's or LB's that are really worth much. Especially considering almost every player in our front 7 is overpaid.

We need a MLB and a pass rushing DE most of all. If we stick with what we currently have, I guarentee will be in the bottom 5 in defense once again.

ComstockLode
01-22-2006, 01:34 PM
Sure.

This years top 5 sack leaders.

Seattle (4-3)
Miami (4-3)
Pittsburgh
Jacksonville (4-3)
Indianapolis (4-3)



All of the above teams have a great defensive line overall and a superstar as their weakside pass rushing defensive end. We have neither.

Grid
01-22-2006, 01:44 PM
I seriously doubt we will ever read headlines about Jason Babin terrorizing NFL QBs.

Does anyone in here honestly imagine offensive coordinators gameplanning on how to stop Babin? Does any picture him drawing double-teams, etc?

You've seen him play. You tell me.

Eh.. id say the same thing about Foley when he left from here.

Grid
01-22-2006, 01:45 PM
All of the above teams have a great defensive line overall and a superstar as their weakside pass rushing defensive end. We have neither.

We dont know what we have. But even assuming we dont.. if we have the coach, and the basic talent to get started with a 4-3...then there is no reason NOT to go that route.