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View Full Version : What is leadership exactly? im confused.


Grid
01-18-2006, 04:16 PM
I know this has been beat to death.. but people keep dogging on Carr's leadership abilities..and im just wondering where it is coming from. What little blurb or picture do you have that proves he isnt a leader?

Im just wondering what people expect.. I mean.. does he need to go into convulsions of excitement everytime a play is made? Would that prove that he is a leader?

I know..thats stupid..but what is it, exactly, that is lacking? Im sorry but as someone who isnt in the lockerroom.. and isnt a close friend of any of the players.. I cant tell you definitively that he is or isnt a leader. Id like to know what little peice if info I missed that showed that he isnt one.

I honestly think that all these people claiming that Carr isnt a leader.. are incorrectly associating leadership skills with winning. A player can lead his team just fine, but that doesnt mean they will win.. it is still up to the players to play hard, and the coaches to make the right decisions. We know the coaches werent doing their part... So where does it all fall on Carr, exactly?

please.. enlighten me.. im totally in the dark on this whole leadership thing.

Jack Bauer
01-18-2006, 04:19 PM
please.. enlighten me.. im totally in the dark on this whole leadership thing.

I wish I could, but I don't understand it myself. From everything I see and hear, he has the leadership abilities that are needed in an NFL QB. I haven't heard a peep out of anyone on the team regarding David's "lack" of leadership. The only place I find it is on this message board.

Meloy
01-18-2006, 04:29 PM
I wish I could, but I don't understand it myself. From everything I see and hear, he has the leadership abilities that are needed in an NFL QB. I haven't heard a peep out of anyone on the team regarding David's "lack" of leadership. The only place I find it is on this message board.

It is encouraging others to do what is needed when they might not feel like it. When you fall down hurt, exhausted and get back up knowing the next step you may get knocked down again but you get up anyway. When you accept responsibility when it is truly someone else's fault. I think David is a leader.

MorKnolle
01-18-2006, 04:31 PM
I have similarly wondered where these opinions about Carr's apparent lack of leadership come from. To me the fact that he's been sacked more in four years than any QB in the history of football and keeps coming back and not complaining about it speaks volumes about him, and I like the fact that when he's running to get a first down he doesn't slide to protect himself and come up short, he dives head first and takes the punishment and pain for the benefit of the team. There aren't many QBs that will do that in this league that has created numerous rules to protect QBs. He may not be the most vocal guy on the team, he may not be the best QB in the league, and our team certainly isn't the best in the league, but that doesn't mean Carr is a bad leader.

I haven't heard a peep out of anyone on the team regarding David's "lack" of leadership. The only place I find it is on this message board.

I haven't heard anything either other than people on the message board and Vince supporters in the local media.

Sportsfan
01-18-2006, 04:35 PM
I haven't heard a peep out of anyone on the team regarding David's "lack" of leadership. The only place I find it is on this message board.

Well said.

jerek
01-18-2006, 04:37 PM
Leadership is synonomous with winning the Rose Bowl title game.

It is what allows you to take a team full of comparably elite athletes and one of the winningest coaches in modern college football and put them all on your back.

It allows you to make blanket statements regarding caliber of players based on sense of possession of the word "it."

:brickwall

In all seriousness, though, I think leadership does not have to be spoken, though some leaders are vocal.

Leaders are those that people will look to in difficulty. Leaders are those who are reliable: you can count on them to play their part, and to hold you accountable that you will play yours. Leaders want victory, will do everything in their power to get it.

Leaders are able to get people to do the things they do not want to do, in order to achieve the things they do want for themselves.

As it relates to the DC vs VY argument:

Is Carr a great leader? Honestly, I don't think so. I don't think he is a great leader. Is he a bad one? I doubt it. I think he is a four-year veteran who has not quite yet found his voice on this team, a guy who is admired but has not made that assertive push yet, has not had that series of successes that help to define a leader and garner his respect.

I know for a fact we cut our 2004 leaders, Aaron Gleen and Jamie Sharper. Good job, Cass. I don't think your QB has to be the leader: he is in a sense by default, because he is the signal caller on your offensive side. But even at that, he does not have to be your voice among voices.

I am no best friend of any of the players or their families. I have seen the team together, interacted with them personally, away from the public eye and in their own element where they are free to be themselves and not put on a face, and simply in gauging them, I would comfortably say that there is not animosity towards Carr.

I think that Carr has potential to be just the sort of leader he was drafted to be. I also believe that, circumstances being what they have been, he has not developed into that leader just yet. We will see if he does, soon enough.

ledzeppelin229
01-18-2006, 04:38 PM
The bottom line is record. When the team is losing, people want to get rid of players. When people want to get rid of players, theyll make stuff up or make wild guesses that can't really be proved one way or another to justify their point. When Carr and the team as a whole start playing better, these people will crawl back into their holes. Or they'll go cheer for VY and the Titans.

Big B Texan Fan
01-18-2006, 04:41 PM
At about mid-season Marc and Rich(610) had Brian Pitmann (I think that's his name) our deep snapper was on the show when they were on site @ Hooters or something.
When Brian was aked by Marc "So who would you say the leader of the team is. With us being 0-6(or whatever it was at the time) I'm just curious as to who is gonna lead us out of this funk".
Brian startd saying guys names like Wong, Payne, and Walker. At that point Marc should've left it alone but he asked "Who would you the leader is of the offense".
Brian had one of those Southwest Airlines moments where he wished he was somewhere else. It went like this..."Uhhhh...ummmmm....uhhhh...well, ....uhhhmmmm, Weigert is pretty vocal ya know crackin' jokes". Which promted Marc and Rich to say "wow, that's pretty sad" Pittman didn't try to clean it up either.
I swear it. If you can get thru call and ask them to play cuz they played it a few times later on.

Does anyone remember that?
Now I know he's just the long snapper but c'mon, he's on that sideline.

HoustonFrog
01-18-2006, 04:51 PM
At about mid-season Marc and Rich(610) had Brian Pitmann (I think that's his name) our deep snapper was on the show when they were on site @ Hooters or something.
When Brian was aked by Marc "So who would you say the leader of the team is. With us being 0-6(or whatever it was at the time) I'm just curious as to who is gonna lead us out of this funk".
Brian startd saying guys names like Wong, Payne, and Walker. At that point Marc should've left it alone but he asked "Who would you the leader is of the offense".
Brian had one of those Southwest Airlines moments where he wished he was somewhere else. It went like this..."Uhhhh...ummmmm....uhhhh...well, ....uhhhmmmm, Weigert is pretty vocal ya know crackin' jokes". Which promted Marc and Rich to say "wow, that's pretty sad" Pittman didn't try to clean it up either.
I swear it. If you can get thru call and ask them to play cuz they played it a few times later on.

Does anyone remember that?
Now I know he's just the long snapper but c'mon, he's on that sideline.

That is the same stuff that happened to McKinney and they almost asked point blank if Carr was the leader on offense. He never named him. I just wrote this in another post but people dogged me saying that the Mckinney thing was taken out of context and that the rumors about David not taking extra snaps or dedicating himself to the team as leader was bunk and hearsay. Carr has answered the charges before and says he spends time with his family instead. Well McClain pretty much alluded to those today in his piece. He has the same conclusion as me and others. You may not like him but he is closer to the team than any of us are by a long shot.

"Kubiak is a former quarterback who coaches quarterbacks. He knows that analyzing a quarterback takes so much more than simply watching tapes of games and practices.

Kubiak has to find out what Carr is made of — if Carr is willing to pay the price off the field as he is on the field. Can Carr be consumed with becoming one of the NFL's best — a process that requires 24/7 dedication during the season and something close to it in the offseason.

Kubiak has to decide if Carr can become a dynamic team leader — a trait he hasn't developed in his first four seasons."

cadahnic
01-18-2006, 04:57 PM
A leader.

Someone who can make another person do something that they inherently dont want to do and enjoy it. Roosevelt

To me that is a leader, and the man that that has to be is Kubiak. This to me is the definition of a leader, in work, play or anything. I dont know much about the armed forces, but every man I know that has fought in combat has sad this is very true. Most people do not really want to die, for any cause, much less the idea of America, but leaders true leaders make them enjoy being a flyboy or a grunt. Now I got this statement from a man that served during the Vietnam war and he told me if you lead this way and strive to do it this way then you will be a great leader.

As for Carr is he a leader on this team? Yes. He is the QB so he leads the offense. Is he the type of leader that is synonomous with what most people feel are leaders? NO. He does need to get into people more, and hold them accountable. Yes he holds himself accountable and will do it often, but what about when his line is crap, or Bradford misses another ball, or Armstrong runs a bad route and does not get open. Talk to them, yeah he likely does, but call them out for all to see make them understand that winning is the only thing he is going to settle for. If it is going to be his team he has to take it, and like Jerek S. said he has not yet.

Big B Texan Fan
01-18-2006, 05:00 PM
I don't want to see Kubes legacy get tarnished 'cuz he can't turn him around.

Note to all the people who thinks Kubes is gonna get ahold of this and put us into contention right away with the bush pick.
He's gonna be new at his position at a new locale
His cordinators will probably be line coaches going from their team to ours with a more responsible role.
3 new guys, with new jobs, at a new place, working together for the first time with a team that just finished 2-14. Can you say 3-13 season 1, 6-10 season 2, 9-7 season 3. The 3 seasons of carrs' option are up, no playoffs, what do you do?

I can't wait 4 kubes but he ain't fixing anything right away. Especially with carr behind the wheel.

texplayer2
01-18-2006, 05:07 PM
I think leadership in the Pro's can come from many different fronts. In college the star QB,RB, defensive standout,or a Coach usually is the guy you look to to win the game or give you the fire. Not everyone at that level is able to lead and are not going on to the pro ranks.
At the next level I would think leadership comes from Experience, Consistency, Respect for others on your team and Exceptional Ability. Everyone in the professional ranks of any endeavor hold these things in high regard. Leaders are not always the guy who is hooping and hollering.(reference T.O.)

chall8
01-18-2006, 05:08 PM
Leadership is a lot of different things, depending on the situation and environment.

On an NFL football field it's about rallying your teammates, with words and/or actions, to play up to and beyond their capabilities.

There are many intangible qualities of leadership. Charisma, personality, character, attitude, just to name a few. Some have more "natural" leadership ability than others, but in many cases leadership can be learned. But in all cases leadership requires confidence.

In some ways Carr has demonstrated tremendous leadership ability (character, attitude), and in other ways he has failed miserably (getting players in the huddle to look in his eyes and then their guts on the field for him on the next play). If you're an NFL QB then this is the type of leadership that matters most.

Grndzro
01-18-2006, 05:08 PM
I brought this up in another thread and I guess I will need to reiterate it here. Lets use Drew Brees for an example. The first couple of years he was on a team with marginal talent and many said he lacked leadership skills. Suddenly given a reason to compete (drafting of Rivers), and better talent he has became the leader of the team. I will tell you this from expierance, leadership is a trait that manifest in several diffirent ways. Brett Favre is a leader and he celebrates every time he scores a touchdown, yet when Carr does he is said to be to giddy and should act like he has been there. Every leader is diffirent, and until you are on the team or in the huddle none of you can honestly say if he is a leader or not.

Big B Texan Fan
01-18-2006, 05:12 PM
Brett Favre is a leader and he celebrates every time he scores a touchdown, yet when Carr does he is said to be to giddy and should act like he has been there.

How does that song go.....Feels like the first time, feels like the very first time.
:jam: :headbang:

texplayer2
01-18-2006, 05:26 PM
Leadership is a lot of different things, depending on the situation and environment.

On an NFL football field it's about rallying your teammates, with words and/or actions, to play up to and beyond their capabilities.

There are many intangible qualities of leadership. Charisma, personality, character, attitude, just to name a few. Some have more "natural" leadership ability than others, but in many cases leadership can be learned. But in all cases leadership requires confidence.

In some ways Carr has demonstrated tremendous leadership ability (character, attitude), and in other ways he has failed miserably (getting players in the huddle to look in his eyes and then their guts on the field for him on the next play). If you're an NFL QB then this is the type of leadership that matters most.

The Only problem with confidence is(reference T.O.) . That is a byproduct of Experience and Consistency. T.O. has plenty of Confidence in HIMSELF.

Runner
01-18-2006, 06:40 PM
About the Pittman thing, long snappers don't practice with the offensive or defensive units, so he isn't really part of the nitty-gritty work by those units. He would just have a "team as a whole" viewpoint.

The knock against Tim Duncan early in his career was he wasn't a leader. Now that he has three rings he's a quiet guy who is a very strong leader by example. He comes to work everyday, he isn't above anyone else, etc.

They used to talk up Favre's leadership when they were winning. This season there was a lot of questions that he's holding the team back. Is he no longer a leader, or does his supporting cast affect how he is viewed?

Leadership is many different things and perceptions change with won/loss record, big games, demeanor, etc.

As to Carr? I would have liked him to change plays in the huddle until Pendry benched him (likely) or gave in (yeah, right). But that is just me from a long way away - I don't put a lot of stock in my own opinion on this. Imagine the flack Carr would take if he was benched for insubordination. I bet the players would have respected him though.

Tale Gator
01-18-2006, 06:40 PM
Leadership is not allowing your team to go 2-14.

Double Barrel
01-18-2006, 06:42 PM
leadership...leadership....

It's one of those things that can be hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

For instance, Tom Brady...now there is an obvious leader for his offensive unit. You just know it as a fan, without even being close to the Patriots or in the locker room. You can just tell by the way he plays and the way his team responds to him.

Who can say for sure that David Carr is, or is not, a leader? None of us really knows for sure. But just judging as an innocent bystander, a football fan, a casual observer...you still can't tell if Carr is a leader or not. It's just not obvious the way it is with other QBs in the NFL.

It's almost a situation where if you have to ask about it, then the answer might be right in front of us? idonno:

chall8
01-18-2006, 06:46 PM
The Only problem with confidence is(reference T.O.) . That is a byproduct of Experience and Consistency. T.O. has plenty of Confidence in HIMSELF.

Be careful not to confuse "confidence" with "cockiness" or "arrogance".

To have a career in the NFL you have to have confidence at a pretty high level.

Runner
01-18-2006, 06:54 PM
All of the examples I am seeing of leaders are from winning teams. Can someone give a good example of an acknowledged leader who is on a very poor team? Don't cop out and say leaders don't lose - look at Aikman's early career among others.

I think winning changes a lot of perspectives - I can't think of perrenial loser who himself was a leader. I'm sure I'm missing a few people.

MorKnolle
01-18-2006, 06:56 PM
All of the examples I am seeing of leaders are from winning teams. Can someone give a good example of an acknowledged leader who is on a very poor team? Don't cop out and say leaders don't lose - look at Aikman's early career among others.

I think winning changes a lot of perspectives - I can't think of perrenial loser who himself was a leader. I'm sure I'm missing a few people.

Brett Favre this year, a lot of that was injuries but he still made some really bad decisions this year when trying to make plays and lead his team.

1-3
01-18-2006, 06:56 PM
Leadership: running out of bounds 4 yards behind the line of scrimmage so your O-Line racks up another sack on the stat sheet. See also, throwing short over the middle of the field to your back when your team needs to go 80 yards in almost no time. :stirpot:

Grid
01-18-2006, 07:01 PM
The Pittman conversation sounds like a valid concern.

The "staying after practice" thing.. im torn on that one.. cause yah its important for him to be an example, and hang with the guys.. but its also important to be with your family. Im not going to fault him for that one.

The "not letting your team go 2-14" and the "running out of bounds 4 yards behind the line of scrimmage".. are just stupid and I am not going to dignify them with a response (other than this one of course hehe)

JohnGalt
01-18-2006, 07:02 PM
Leadership: running out of bounds 4 yards behind the line of scrimmage so your O-Line racks up another sack on the stat sheet. See also, throwing short over the middle of the field to your back when your team needs to go 80 yards in almost no time. :stirpot:

Words of wisdom from "Saint" Vince.

"It's easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you've got to have is faith and discipline when you're not yet a winner"

"In great attempts, it is glorious even to fail."

"Leadership rests not only upon ability, not only upon capacity; having the capacity to lead is not enough. The leader must be willing to use it. His leadership is then based on truth and character."

Runner
01-18-2006, 07:08 PM
Brett Favre this year, a lot of that was injuries but he still made some really bad decisions this year when trying to make plays and lead his team.

Honest question:

Would you have said that if you didn't know Brett Favre's history, or if Brett Farve was some unknown second year QB this year?

Runner
01-18-2006, 07:09 PM
See also, throwing short over the middle of the field to your back when your team needs to go 80 yards in almost no time. :stirpot:

Well, he got cruicifed for going for a touchdown when Dre was "open over the middle" with time running out. He gets slammed either way he goes on that one.

real
01-18-2006, 07:12 PM
Well, he got cruicifed for going for a touchdown when Dre was "open over the middle" with time running out. He gets slammed either way he goes on that one.
two totally different situations...

Runner
01-18-2006, 07:32 PM
two totally different situations...


How so? Throwing short when we need to go long. Seems similar to me.

Anyway, I'm about done with revisiting that play. Let me know what you think and then I'm moving on.

Erratic Assassin
01-18-2006, 07:54 PM
Im just wondering what people expect.. I mean.. does he need to go into convulsions of excitement everytime a play is made? Would that prove that he is a leader?

A leader would be a coach on the field. He would find ways to keep his teammates calm in high pressure situations. The way Joe Montana was pointing out celebrities to his teammates during the Superbowl. The way Jim Kelly didn't quit after the Oilers had him down 35 to nothing.

Most importantly, he would inspire confidence. He would not be pouting on the sidelines the moment something goes wrong.

Compare the way Vince Young remained calm all year when the game was on the line while Mike Brown looked like he was ready to wet his pants. Vince appears to be more of a leader than his coach.

Of course Vince is surrounded by superior talent and David Carr isn't. It's easy to feel confident when you're winning all the time (and no Superman doesn't do it by himself). Let Vince go through 3 or 4 consecutive losing seasons where he spends the entire game every game running for his life and we'll see if he still exudes confidence.

JohnGalt
01-18-2006, 07:58 PM
I seem to recall that Favre even had a problem with painkillers his first couple of years. He seems to have had a rather start in the league.

He didn't start putting good numbers until year 4 and he had Holmgren calling the plays

tsip
01-18-2006, 09:27 PM
A leader is the one everyone counts on to take care of the 'intangibles.' A leader, for example, is the DR that directs his surgical team to save lives--especially the lives of people not expected to live. A leader is the one who gets up in front of the crowd, whether comfortable or not, and speaks on their behalf to voice their say/concerns/etc. A leader is the soldier on the field that directs their unit to success and saves lives. You may or may not like the leader but you respect them because they know to get respect, they've got to give respect. A leader is the one who 'sets the bar' high for everyone and accepts nothing less and-most important-they set that bar a lttle higher for themselves. Too, while a leader can 'discuss' your mistakes with you (sometimes not very nicely), they are not afraid or intimidated to let you know you've done a good job--a leader knows we all mistakes and learning from them is what is important.

...think about a few of the greatest QBs of all time--Unitas,Starr,Elway and many others--these guys were not screamers but definitely were leaders. Their team mates knew that they would be lead to victory through a team effort because they had a leader.

Is Carr a leader? Having to ask that question is not a good sign but who knows...

infantrycak
01-18-2006, 11:00 PM
The staying after practice thing needs to be put in a 12 ft deep grave and never mentioned again. Ray Lewis and Ed Reed study tons and tons of game tape beyond what is required by the team. They don't do it during practice time or at the Ravens facility, they do it at Lewis' house. Unless someone with a Cracker Jack decoder ring wants to claim a special knowledge of Carr's at home study habits (by the way, anyone know where Manning studies his game tape predominately?) then this is one of the more stupid comments around.

infantrycak
01-18-2006, 11:02 PM
That is the same stuff that happened to McKinney and they almost asked point blank if Carr was the leader on offense. He never named him. I just wrote this in another post but people dogged me saying that the Mckinney thing was taken out of context and that the rumors about David not taking extra snaps or dedicating himself to the team as leader was bunk and hearsay.

Must be fun getting to write your own history books.

barzilla
01-18-2006, 11:05 PM
To me that is a leader, and the man that that has to be is Kubiak.

Amen. Most NFL teams do not take on the personality of their QB. They take on the personality of their coach. This team last season took on the personality of their coach and that was the personality of a milquetoast. Capers is a heck of a nice guy and a good guy, but that doesn't win championships. Look at the great coaches in history and very few of them were nice guys.

I still think leadership and performance go hand in hand. Carr was lauded for his leadership in college because he was a great college QB. Vince Young was a great leader in college because he was a great college QB. A large part of leadership is the belief that your leader will do something to throw you over the top. That is why coaches like Belicheck are great leaders because their team believe they can design a superior game plan.

I would say all in all Carr is an average NFL QB. To me, the question is not one of leadership but of whether he can be a great or even good QB. Think of the great QBs in history and they were all called great leaders. People here assume that means that you must be a great leader to be a great QB. I say you have to be a great QB to be a great leader at that position. Define greatness anyway you want, but it's there in every case.

I don't know if Carr will ever be a good starting QB. I suspect he can in the right conditions, but I would submit that there is NOTHING that VY has done that GUARANTEES that he will be a great QB in the NFL. I think he certainly can be, but we don't know. The 2002 scouting report said Carr would be a very good QB. At the end of the day it is always our best guess. So, please, act like you're certain if you want (about Young being a great leader and Carr being ineffctual), but you're not fooling anyone. A whole team of scouts, GMs, and coaches can't tell you that with any certainty.

texplayer2
01-18-2006, 11:11 PM
A leader is the one everyone counts on to take care of the 'intangibles.' A leader, for example, is the DR that directs his surgical team to save lives--especially the lives of people not expected to live. A leader is the one who gets up in front of the crowd, whether comfortable or not, and speaks on their behalf to voice their say/concerns/etc. A leader is the soldier on the field that directs their unit to success and saves lives. You may or may not like the leader but you respect them because they know to get respect, they've got to give respect. A leader is the one who 'sets the bar' high for everyone and accepts nothing less and-most important-they set that bar a lttle higher for themselves. Too, while a leader can 'discuss' your mistakes with you (sometimes not very nicely), they are not afraid or intimidated to let you know you've done a good job--a leader knows we all mistakes and learning from them is what is important.

...think about a few of the greatest QBs of all time--Unitas,Starr,Elway and many others--these guys were not screamers but definitely were leaders. Their team mates knew that they would be lead to victory through a team effort because they had a leader.

Is Carr a leader? Having to ask that question is not a good sign but who knows...

Carr doesn't have to be the leader, just so everyone is aware. Who was the Leader on the Oilers ,when Earl Campbell was here? How about da Bears in 85' ? Their is more than one way to skin a cat.:eek: You have to use what you get and do the best with ........IT.

Mr. White
01-18-2006, 11:21 PM
The way Jim Kelly didn't quit after the Oilers had him down 35 to nothing.

That was actually Frank Reich. Kelly was injured in that game.


Of course Vince is surrounded by superior talent and David Carr isn't.

I agree to an extent. Gino Torretta was also surrounded by superior talent. While he won the Heisman and National Championships, he never showed anything extra that made people think that he would succeed on the next level.

aj.
01-19-2006, 06:27 AM
Carr doesn't have to be the leader, just so everyone is aware. Who was the Leader on the Oilers ,when Earl Campbell was here? How about da Bears in 85' ? Their is more than one way to skin a cat.:eek: You have to use what you get and do the best with ........IT.

Agreed, but then why make him one of the highest paid QBs in the NFL if all you need out of him is Dilfer, Pastorini, or McMahon-like performance ?

Tale Gator
01-19-2006, 06:44 AM
The "not letting your team go 2-14" ... are just stupid and I am not going to dignify them with a response (other than this one of course hehe)

Clearly you have been stumped - please name some great QB 'leaders' in the NFL that have an 18-46 starting record over their first 4 seasons. Be sure to include those whose winning percentage has gotten worse with experience [season #4 -- 2-14 ~ 14%].

I await your response with bated breath.

bullman
01-19-2006, 06:49 AM
CARR is a true leader and I dont think VY will be the leader that Carr is, if vy comes to Houston, he will probably hang with his so called homies, and not be concern about his teamates. Carr is a true family man and a christian. VY should probaly be a reciever because he cant handle the qb position, and cant read defenses. Carr's option will be picked up, so stop crying about getting VY you fairwaether fans! VY should have stayed in college.

Grid
01-19-2006, 07:08 AM
Clearly you have been stumped - please name some great QB 'leaders' in the NFL that have an 18-46 starting record over their first 4 seasons. Be sure to include those whose winning percentage has gotten worse with experience [season #4 -- 2-14 ~ 14%].

I await your response with bated breath.


Please name all the QBs who started from scratch with an expansion franchise and had inept coaches who ignored his offensive line and made *****ic play calls.

Matter of fact.. why is it that when a team posts a bad record like 2-14, the coaching staff gets fired, not the QB?

and 22-42.. Jake Plummer. he started 4-12, then went 9-7, 6-12, 3-13.

Even so.. every freakin thing that happens in the NFL cannot be compared to some other past situation.

aj.
01-19-2006, 07:16 AM
Carr is a true family man and a christian.

Yeah, like that helps on 3rd and 23.

Give me a single, childless, non-Christian who wins (and is a leader of course) and I'm happy.

Wharton
01-19-2006, 07:23 AM
Must be fun getting to write your own history books.
Its not his own history book, I heard it too. Darn near fell over when it happened.

Exascor
01-19-2006, 07:52 AM
"Leadership is the wise use of power. Power is the capacity to translate intention into reality and sustain it." Warren Bennis

BREAZE
01-19-2006, 08:48 AM
http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=41&url_article_id=1891&url_subchannel_id=&change_well_id=2

"Young's final, selfless act for the Texas Longhorns was to talk to his would be successor about leadership. For Vince, it had always been about "team," and as the Rose Bowl approached and passed, it became obvious that the world would no longer allow him to fit in that role. With his magnificent performance in the National Championship game, Young became larger than life, and as much as he tried to deflect credit and give it to his teammates, the media and the fans would never allow that.

And so, just as the mythical character in Kahlil Gibran's poem "The Prophet," Vince Young sailed off in the sunset on Sunday. Behind, he left an amazing legacy, a rare and unique person whose qualities were many, whose significant shadow will be cast on Texas football forever.

In leaving, he also left room in the spotlight. He had told people over and over again about his receivers, his offensive line, his running backs, and the Longhorn defense, and he reinforced over and over again the impact Longhorn coaches Davis and Brown had had on not only his career, but his life.

But of all his qualities, his greatest were his competitiveness, and his leadership. Competitiveness is part of one's nature. Leadership is available only when you earn it."

Kaiser Toro
01-19-2006, 08:53 AM
CARR is a true leader and I dont think VY will be the leader that Carr is, if vy comes to Houston, he will probably hang with his so called homies, and not be concern about his teamates. Carr is a true family man and a christian. VY should probaly be a reciever because he cant handle the qb position, and cant read defenses. Carr's option will be picked up, so stop crying about getting VY you fairwaether fans! VY should have stayed in college.

Can you define true leader? I have seen some good takes on what a leader is, but would like to know what a true one looks like. Moreover, what is a so called homie?

HoustonFrog
01-19-2006, 08:56 AM
Must be fun getting to write your own history books.

Glad you excluded the rest of the post. Must be fun going to your RIF class and missing the reading comprehension part. Who the heck are you, the board know it all? As I said, I HEARD these conversations on the radio and the discussions. Something you obviously didn't except for your revisionist account of another McKinney conversation. AGAIN, it looks like this hasn't been the first time it has been passed around. You tell me what McClain is alluding to here. And for the record, it wasn't just video tape, it was working with his receivers after practice, etc.

"After he hires his assistants, Kubiak will have to spend a lot of time with Carr. For about a month, they'll spend more time with each other than they spend with their wives

Kubiak is a former quarterback who coaches quarterbacks. He knows that analyzing a quarterback takes so much more than simply watching tapes of games and practices.

Kubiak has to find out what Carr is made of — if Carr is willing to pay the price off the field as he is on the field. Can Carr be consumed with becoming one of the NFL's best — a process that requires 24/7 dedication during the season and something close to it in the offseason.

Kubiak has to decide if Carr can become a dynamic team leader — a trait he hasn't developed in his first four seasons."

HoustonFrog
01-19-2006, 10:07 AM
It all comes down to wins and this "TEAM" has not had all the weapons to go out and win.
If Carr was winning he would be one of the best leaders around.

I think we will agree to disagree. It has nothing to do with wins and losses. It has everything to do with how you handle adversity and the bad times.

infantrycak
01-19-2006, 10:15 AM
Go away...........it is all about wins, how you come back from adversity like getting hammered more then any other QB in the history of the NFL and getting up all 200+ times(just sacks), you waste me and everyone elses time dont type on here anymore.

So long as they stay within the terms of use, everyone is free to post here and express their opinions--and of course, you can respond where you disagree. No need for posters to tell each other to go away.

chuckm
01-19-2006, 10:17 AM
I wish this thread would go away

Grid
01-19-2006, 10:50 AM
about the whole "how you react to adversity" thing.. id like to point out Vince Young's reaction to the tough game against A&M. there is a thread about it on the board here somewhere.. pictures of him sitting on the bench looking depressed and such.

And it didnt take 4 years of breaking the sack record under an inept coaching staff that gave him no help either.

HoustonFrog
01-19-2006, 11:05 AM
............Okay stay:rolleyes:

Yeah dude, I have nothing against you or anyone personally in here. Having differing opinions is what makes the board. What did I say that was so harsh. You can have a winning team and not think the QB is the leader (think Cowboys, 90s, Irvin and E. Smith probably led more than Aikman, who was reserved) and you can have a losing team where you think the QB is keeping the team together despite the losing. I hate to have a board of Carr lovin drones. Hell, I'm the one who has been saying to draft Bush. Have a great day!!

tsip
01-19-2006, 12:28 PM
CARR is a true leader and I dont think VY will be the leader that Carr is, if vy comes to Houston, he will probably hang with his so called homies, and not be concern about his teamates. Carr is a true family man and a christian. VY should probaly be a reciever because he cant handle the qb position, and cant read defenses. Carr's option will be picked up, so stop crying about getting VY you fairwaether fans! VY should have stayed in college.

Carr is not a leader--he is a follower--what he is told to do on the field, he does. How many times did Carr buck Capers system-take the 'bull by the horns' and do it his way?...ever, in 4 yrs? What would Capers have done if Carr did his own thing and led the team to victory? And did it again and again- think the players around him would respond in a different way? You betcha. A leader doesn't just follow orders, he gets results, bottom line...how many of you management people walked into a new environment/assignment where everything was made perfect for you or you were not expected to get 'desired' results? It's not that Carr is expected to lead us to a Super Bowl over night, nor should be allowed to be told everything to do--again, that is a follower, not a leader. Leaders take chances--sure, they make mistakes-but they learn from THEM. Early in my management career, I was told there are 3 types of decisions--first, there is the 'right' one and thats great--second, there is the wrong one, OK-learn from it and move forward--third,there is the 'no decsion.' That's the worse decsion because it doesn't tell you what a person has learned/knows-you don't earn respect from your fellow workers when you come face to face with a decision and do nothing. I never criticized a subordinate for taking initiative on their own to make a decision-right or wrong--I could deal with that.

Sorry, but if Carr is a 'true' leader with a 'belly full of fire', he needs to do whatever it takes to get 'desired reults'--one game at a time is he going to be the one who says--"..lead, follow,..just get the heck out of my way!":twocents:

jerek
01-19-2006, 12:45 PM
Its not his own history book, I heard it too. Darn near fell over when it happened.

Well if you heard it, it must be true?

Texan Gal 312
01-19-2006, 12:48 PM
Geez - this so simple. If the team wins, the quarterback is a great leader. If they do not, everyone questions his leadership ability. Take the pulse of Indy right now - they are all (ok many) are questioning his leadership ability.
What exactly about Tom Brady makes him a great leader ? Would people say he was a great leader if there were no superbowl trophies? A referees call here or there - "tuck rule" or a missed fg here or there - there are no superbowl trophies and he is not a "great" leader.

Where was everybody saying Vince has "it" and he is a great leader when we lost 12-0 to Oklahoma. That wasn't so long ago was it ?
What a difference a year makes.

I don't recall anyone questioning Carr's leadership abilities when Banks broke his hand and Carr came in with a bad ankle and led the Texans to a victory over atlanta.

Leadership ability does not create W's

W's make you a great leader. Somebody will point out some trait you have that says you are a great leader. It could be quiet, leads by example. Or great emotional leader - something

In the business world, the same can be said about profits.

Big B Texan Fan
01-19-2006, 01:14 PM
I don't recall anyone questioning Carr's leadership abilities when Banks broke his hand and Carr came in with a bad ankle and led the Texans to a victory over atlanta.
It was a shoulder inj I thought from the Bills game where a former Texan (posey) sacked him for a safety

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031130_ATL@HOU

25 yds passing with an int.
DD scored those 2 TD's in the 3rd, maybe he's the leader??

Now I know what your point is that you are trying to make. He had that one heroic run. Applause. But it was a bad move from an instinct standpoint. While scrambling was the right thing to do since he couldn't throw it past the LOS and out of bounds at the same time. So why is he sliding head first, you are a sitting duck, and he almost did not get up. That's what I'm talking about; instincts, making the right decisions, leading by example. The whole warrior thing is old, the equity on the dallas win is gone (I'll probably catch hell for that one). You can only take so much of a (voluntary) pounding before your teammates say get 'em out, sub-conciously, bring in someone who'll take chances 'cuz he's making us look worse than we really are.

Meloy
01-19-2006, 01:22 PM
Leadership is not allowing your team to go 2-14.

Uh wouldn't your statement indicate all players on the team failed as leaders? Seems as though you are focusing on wins not leadership. Wins are influenced by injuries, talent & skills, management decisions, etc. You can have a great leader at QB and lose 16 games to better teams.

Hookem Horns
01-19-2006, 01:28 PM
If Carr was winning he would be one of the best leaders around.

If Carr was a good leader he might be winning.

michaelm
01-19-2006, 01:44 PM
Clearly you have been stumped - please name some great QB 'leaders' in the NFL that have an 18-46 starting record over their first 4 seasons. Be sure to include those whose winning percentage has gotten worse with experience [season #4 -- 2-14 ~ 14%].

I await your response with bated breath.


Many names have been mentioned when referencing QBs who didn't have success until a few years into their carreers.
Surprised that no one has mentioned Brad Johnson (to my knowlege), but even more surprised that no one mentions Rich Gannon. He was in his 13th season when he got to Oakland and he lit it up, even taking them to a Super Bowl.
Sure, he wasn't a starter that whole time, but he also wasn't starting from scratch with a horrible offensive scheme and some very dubious OL play...

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1034

michaelm
01-19-2006, 01:50 PM
If Carr was a good leader he might be winning.

If the definition of 'good leader' is creating and implementing a viable NFL offense, manning all of the positions along the OL, drafting and starting a TE that can do anything useful production wise, playing both ways so teams that suck like St. Louis don't put up 14pts in a minute in a half at the end of a game, Stopping Baltimore from marching down the field and kicking a game winner, creating a cross wind that pushes Kris Brown's kicks through the uprights...



YADA YADA YADA...

tulexan
01-19-2006, 01:50 PM
I still am confused why Carr has to be the leader of the offense. A lot of teams have players other than the QB as the leader of the offense. The leadership argument to me sounds like ways to bash Carr and elevate Vince Young. Why aren't we asking why Pitts, Johnson, Davis, McKinney, Bradford, Gaffney, or any other player hasn't stepped up to be the leader? Why does Carr have to be the leader of the team?

bullman
01-19-2006, 02:11 PM
I still am confused why Carr has to be the leader of the offense. A lot of teams have players other than the QB as the leader of the offense. The leadership argument to me sounds like ways to bash Carr and elevate Vince Young. Why aren't we asking why Pitts, Johnson, Davis, McKinney, Bradford, Gaffney, or any other player hasn't stepped up to be the leader? Why does Carr have to be the leader of the team?
Thank you, I'm sick of people trying to blame carr for everything, Carr had good stats this season, did you fairweather fans check that out, I dont see nobody being critical of the dl, ol, lb etc. Even Roger Clemens said on ESPN that the Texans should trade down and get more OL. Once again get over it Carr is here to stay, and Kubiak will make him help out out like he did jake Plummer.
Carr 2006!

tsip
01-19-2006, 02:21 PM
I am so looking forward to that day where Carr plays in an absolutely perfect enviroment--TEs,WR,OL,perfect DF and ST,temps just right,winds ok, etc.,etc. And,most of all, I hope it happens sooner than later and that-unlike last year-I hope the :homer: 's are right!!! We sure missed you all posting during the regular season and I know it wasn't because you jumped off the band wagon.............:brickwall

infantrycak
01-19-2006, 02:31 PM
Carr is not a leader--he is a follower--what he is told to do on the field, he does. How many times did Carr buck Capers system-take the 'bull by the horns' and do it his way?...ever, in 4 yrs?

How many examples of QB's do you have doing this? Manning did it the other night on the punt team refusal--arguably a very poor decision. I recall Staubach doing it in the 70's when he was splitting time with Morton. I have seen Carr many times appeal to Capers to go for it on 4th down. Do you actually have to defy the head coach in order to be a leader? Does it have to be in public? In other words, is your standard of a leader, someone who has no idea of what a chain of command is and an overinflated ego to believe they always know what is right even over the head coach? By the way, where are the examples of VY telling Mack Brown to stick it?

TreWardTxn
01-19-2006, 02:49 PM
I know this has been beat to death.. but people keep dogging on Carr's leadership abilities..and im just wondering where it is coming from. What little blurb or picture do you have that proves he isnt a leader?

Im just wondering what people expect.. I mean.. does he need to go into convulsions of excitement everytime a play is made? Would that prove that he is a leader?

I know..thats stupid..but what is it, exactly, that is lacking? Im sorry but as someone who isnt in the lockerroom.. and isnt a close friend of any of the players.. I cant tell you definitively that he is or isnt a leader. Id like to know what little peice if info I missed that showed that he isnt one.

I honestly think that all these people claiming that Carr isnt a leader.. are incorrectly associating leadership skills with winning. A player can lead his team just fine, but that doesnt mean they will win.. it is still up to the players to play hard, and the coaches to make the right decisions. We know the coaches werent doing their part... So where does it all fall on Carr, exactly?

please.. enlighten me.. im totally in the dark on this whole leadership thing.

A leader is a person who you look at and you both know and feel that they are going to deliver you to where you want to be. It's not built on blind faith, but performance. A true leader is believed in by the people around them. Now, in the football sense we saw these very comments from Vanderjagt after they kept losing to Indy. He said when he, or other teammates asked Peyton whether they were going to win big games, he would be all wishy-washy, 'if we do this, then maybe that, and blah blah blah' I'm not saying leaders are big rah-rah guys, but you have to be able to say, to your teammates at least, 'we are going to win.' The best recent example is to look at Tom Brady. Everyone on this board knows he isn't as big as Bledsoe, doesn't throw as hard as Bledsoe, and on the practice field I guarantee he isn't anymore accurate than Drew, but his performance on the field has led to those players believing that they will win the game. He is without a doubt a better QB than Peyton because his teammates believe in him and he has the hardware to prove it (along with the defense...)

TreWardTxn
01-19-2006, 02:54 PM
I still am confused why Carr has to be the leader of the offense. A lot of teams have players other than the QB as the leader of the offense. The leadership argument to me sounds like ways to bash Carr and elevate Vince Young. Why aren't we asking why Pitts, Johnson, Davis, McKinney, Bradford, Gaffney, or any other player hasn't stepped up to be the leader? Why does Carr have to be the leader of the team?

The QB touches the ball every play, he makes the calls in the huddle, players can tell from their demeanor how the QB feels. I've been in a huddle and had a QB stammer out a play, that is not confidence inducing. I'm not saying Carr did that, the point is that everyone in the huddle takes their cues from the QB, that's why they need to lead...
The QBs get the most praise when the team wins, so they got to be the leader of the offense

tsip
01-19-2006, 02:57 PM
'where are the examples of VY telling Mack Brown to stick it?'

...guess you didn't here about the conversation that Mack and VY had after the Missouri game last year , where Mack told VY to do it his way---that's when the Horns took off

...and,as to following orders, you've got to be a pretty rigid individual to not listen to your subordinates---too, I don't think most Mgrs/HC want a "yes" person/player in a key position. I've mentioned before the 3 management styles--(1) stay status quo (2) wait till the problem 'blows up' and try to patch it up or (3) see it ain't workin' and make changes before the bottom falls out...

...there is a bottom line, just a matter of what you will accept on it

TreWardTxn
01-19-2006, 02:58 PM
Uh wouldn't your statement indicate all players on the team failed as leaders? Seems as though you are focusing on wins not leadership. Wins are influenced by injuries, talent & skills, management decisions, etc. You can have a great leader at QB and lose 16 games to better teams.

You're not judged as a leader by what happens to you one time, its how you respond that matters. That's the unsettling fact in this matter, no matter what the Texans do with the Carr, trade or play, we will not know how he answers this adversity until next season; hope it's a positive answer...

infantrycak
01-19-2006, 03:04 PM
'where are the examples of VY telling Mack Brown to stick it?'

...guess you didn't here about the conversation that Mack and VY had after the Missouri game last year , where Mack told VY to do it his way---that's when the Horns took off

What you seem to be describing is a coach adapting to a player's strengths, not the player telling the coach what to do. Do you have any kind of a link for a better description of what transpired?

...and,as to following orders, you've got to be a pretty rigid individual to not listen to your subordinates---too, I don't think most Mgrs/HC want a "yes" person/player in a key position. I've mentioned before the 3 management styles--(1) stay status quo (2) wait till the problem 'blows up' and try to patch it up or (3) see it ain't workin' and make changes before the bottom falls out...

...there is a bottom line, just a matter of what you will accept on it

Giving feedback to the coach (a) isn't what you were suggesting and (b) is something we have virtually no idea about. We do know Carr went to the Texans at the end of last season about changes that needed to be made. It appears the Texans went almost the exact opposite of what Carr wanted in the transition to Pendry. Basically though we have no idea how much Carr told Palmer, Capers and Pendry about how he would like things run. Once again, are you suggesting Carr is only a leader if he told the staff to stick it and started calling his own plays in the huddle and are you suggesting Young has ever defied, i.e. refused to follow, Mack Brown's directives?

Kaiser Toro
01-19-2006, 03:18 PM
The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players. - Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

It has always been one of my favorite quotes and kind of frames my take on Carr. It is pratically impossible for a fan to measure leadership in a sports team environment, but for some who have been involved in sports at a level outside of HS you can get a pretty good feel of how units react to certain players.

I do not see Carr as an impact person from a leadership standpoint - postively or negatively. That does not make him a bad guy or bad player, but once again it raises a question of what in the heck did we pay for when we signed him? I often saw a disinterested player, bordering on apathy this season. Has he been knocked around, heck yes. Do the Texans still pay him, heck yes.

My fingers are crossed that we will finally get some exponential return on investment because no one thought that the total cost of ownership was going this high.

tsip
01-19-2006, 04:59 PM
What you seem to be describing is a coach adapting to a player's strengths, not the player telling the coach what to do. Do you have any kind of a link for a better description of what transpired?



Giving feedback to the coach (a) isn't what you were suggesting and (b) is something we have virtually no idea about. We do know Carr went to the Texans at the end of last season about changes that needed to be made. It appears the Texans went almost the exact opposite of what Carr wanted in the transition to Pendry. Basically though we have no idea how much Carr told Palmer, Capers and Pendry about how he would like things run. Once again, are you suggesting Carr is only a leader if he told the staff to stick it and started calling his own plays in the huddle and are you suggesting Young has ever defied, i.e. refused to follow, Mack Brown's directives?

First, you are talking in extremes, Second, why do you keep bringing up VY--I thought the talk was about Carr--what does VY have to do with Carr being or not being a leader?

Third, I'm talking about Carr seeing the opposing defense doing something on the field that leads him to believing he can make a big play, so he changes the play--or maybe a WR tells Carr he can beat a defender, so he changes the play. No, I'm not talking about changing the way the world exist, or Carr bucking the system, or dishing the HC. I'm talking about the few times during the year when Carr sees an oppurtunity to make a big play and takes it upon himself to make that decision.

I'm sorry you feel the need to have everyone document their post (you certainly don't), insert exaggerated trains of thought that have no basis, and feel threaten by those that have another opinion. It's kind of like I post that the sky is sure dark today and you come back with 'you need sources to back up your belief that the sky is falling.' Hey, a forum is just a forum.

infantrycak
01-19-2006, 06:02 PM
Go back and look at my inquiry again. You will see I asked for examples and even spotted you a couple from NFL QB's and also asked for examples from VY if they exist since if the conclusion is Carr can't hack it, he is the likely replacement. That's a discussion--you assert something, someone asks a question and a discussion ensues. Sorry you feel put upon by a discussion to clarify your opinion.

Tale Gator
01-19-2006, 06:17 PM
Uh wouldn't your statement indicate all players on the team failed as leaders?

If the Houston Texans were Voltron David Carr would be the head -- as everyone knows you can't be successful without a good head on your shoulders.

http://tinypic.com/m8kzew.jpg

barzilla
01-19-2006, 06:33 PM
Many names have been mentioned when referencing QBs who didn't have success until a few years into their carreers.
Surprised that no one has mentioned Brad Johnson (to my knowlege), but even more surprised that no one mentions Rich Gannon. He was in his 13th season when he got to Oakland and he lit it up, even taking them to a Super Bowl.
Sure, he wasn't a starter that whole time, but he also wasn't starting from scratch with a horrible offensive scheme and some very dubious OL play...

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1034

What about the senior Manning? He was a heck of a QB with the Saints despite what the numbers say. Gee, no talent around him. Hmmmmm.......

southtexan
01-19-2006, 08:19 PM
A leader would be a coach on the field. He would find ways to keep his teammates calm in high pressure situations. The way Joe Montana was pointing out celebrities to his teammates during the Superbowl. The way Jim Kelly didn't quit after the Oilers had him down 35 to nothing.

Most importantly, he would inspire confidence. He would not be pouting on the sidelines the moment something goes wrong.

Compare the way Vince Young remained calm all year when the game was on the line while Mike Brown looked like he was ready to wet his pants. Vince appears to be more of a leader than his coach.

Of course Vince is surrounded by superior talent and David Carr isn't. It's easy to feel confident when you're winning all the time (and no Superman doesn't do it by himself). Let Vince go through 3 or 4 consecutive losing seasons where he spends the entire game every game running for his life and we'll see if he still exudes confidence.
Jim Kelly did not play in the second half in that particular game, it was Frank Rich? or whatever his name is.

aj.
01-19-2006, 08:24 PM
I still am confused why Carr has to be the leader of the offense. I can give you about 8 million reasons why in about two weeks....and another 20 million over the past four years. If you are going to pay a guy like a top ten QB, then he needs to be one. If VY is picked #1 overall and the Texans are still sub-500 after his first 59 starts then you can bet he will be getting railed just the same.

I only played through HS, but to me the quarterback is the de facto leader of the offense. When you are picked #1 overall, there are expectations and in hindsight, Carr wasn't worthy of the #1 overall. No, it's not his fault and he's not a bad guy because of it. He's a multi-millionaire who's being questioned about why he should continue to receive more millions by being the starting QB for the Texans. Should he receive carte blanche and a get out of jail free card just because he's a good guy, hasn't been given a fair shake in some opinions, or just because he has potential? No. Carr has never had to compete for his job and that is one of the single worst decisions this franchise has made to date. Let him compete for the job with a legitimate #2 and let the cards fall where they may. I want the best QB in there whether it's Carr, Vince or anyone else who can lead this team deep into the playoffs. The blind loyalty displayed by the Vince homers is surpassed only at times by those who want to keep Carr just because he 'hasn't had a chance.'

Tulip
01-19-2006, 08:33 PM
Jim Kelly did not play in the second half in that particular game, it was Frank Rich? or whatever his name is.

Frank Reich, who also had the biggest comeback in college history on his resume. Jim Kelly was out because his leg had been broken the week before when he was playing the Oilers at the Astrodome.

And now I'm going to go :crying: after having to remember my single worst moment as an Oilers fan.

aj.
01-20-2006, 06:21 AM
Jim Kelly was out because his leg had been broken the week before when he was playing the Oilers at the Astrodome.
.

A memorable game for me since I took my (then) 70-something year old football fanatic mother to her one and only NFL game to see live.

I can still see that play. Kelly went down between the hashes deep in the west end of the field - somewhere between home plate and the pitcher's mound. The crowd was a bit mean ... cheering wildly when he was hurt. It was a Sunday Night Prime Time game on ESPN so everyone was a bit primed. The Dome was rockin that night.

Actually, Kelly only sprained his knee and he returned to action three weeks later for the AFC championship game at Miami. Reich started the infamous Wild Card game against the Oilers and the Divisional round game against Pitt.

BREAZE
01-20-2006, 06:44 AM
If you read the SI edition regarding the Rose Bowl aftermath there was an article that mentioned a certain someone who would stay up late reviewing game film as well as practice film often. If he noticed anyone slacking at a past pratice he would get up in their face the next day and let them know about it. Hint, it was not a UT coach nor anybody from the USC side.

Leadership is not something that just comes out of the sky...you have to earn it. Its more than just trying to convince a coach to go for it on 4th down. You can debate it all you want, but stories like this are not made up and whoever gets this guy will be getting a foundation...

aj.
01-20-2006, 06:45 AM
Leaders emerge.

Kaiser Toro
01-20-2006, 06:55 AM
Leaders emerge.

Agreed. Every team is different and the ingredients are constantly changing. Look at what happened to Philly by introducing TO to the mix. I do not believe anyone would have questioned McNabb's leadership until the verbal fracas.

VY has shown it at the collegiate level and this trait is part of the larger package and that entire package will need to be raised to a whole other level when he gets to the NFL. I think he has it.

Runner
01-20-2006, 08:28 AM
Once we get this leadership thing out of the way, can we move on to something easier? I'm thinking of something along the lines of proving Fermat's last theorem in three dimensional space or proving the existence of God.

Kaiser Toro
01-20-2006, 08:34 AM
Once we get this leadership thing out of the way, can we move on to something easier? I'm thinking of something along the lines of proving Fermat's last theorem in three dimensional space or proving the existence of God.

No sweat let me go get my lava lamp, a twelve pack of Milwaukee's Best (RedBadge), a black light and the Riders on the Storm single first. :)

Big B Texan Fan
01-20-2006, 09:57 AM
No sweat let me go get my lava lamp, a twelve pack of Milwaukee's Best (RedBadge), a black light and the Riders on the Storm single first. :)
Old School, word

jerek
01-20-2006, 10:17 AM
I can give you about 8 million reasons why in about two weeks....and another 20 million over the past four years. If you are going to pay a guy like a top ten QB, then he needs to be one. If VY is picked #1 overall and the Texans are still sub-500 after his first 59 starts then you can bet he will be getting railed just the same.

I only played through HS, but to me the quarterback is the de facto leader of the offense. When you are picked #1 overall, there are expectations and in hindsight, Carr wasn't worthy of the #1 overall. No, it's not his fault and he's not a bad guy because of it. He's a multi-millionaire who's being questioned about why he should continue to receive more millions by being the starting QB for the Texans. Should he receive carte blanche and a get out of jail free card just because he's a good guy, hasn't been given a fair shake in some opinions, or just because he has potential? No. Carr has never had to compete for his job and that is one of the single worst decisions this franchise has made to date. Let him compete for the job with a legitimate #2 and let the cards fall where they may. I want the best QB in there whether it's Carr, Vince or anyone else who can lead this team deep into the playoffs. The blind loyalty displayed by the Vince homers is surpassed only at times by those who want to keep Carr just because he 'hasn't had a chance.'

I can respect this take, AJ, because it is clear to the reader that you are not a Vince-maniac, neither are you a "Carr-homer:" you simply want what's best for the team and would like to see Carr paid for what he has done, not what he might do given [insert change that must occur].

That said, I am not sure your take on "QB competition" is the answer. It seems presumptuous to assert that virtually any starting QB in this league right now plays to his level because of the threat of "competition" for his post. I would point to successful coaching, playcalling, etc. as being more relevant attributes, which you cannot deny: the Texans have not given Carr.

But sticking to your competition argument: is it really feasible to draft a Vince Young and kill off a good third of our team's salary cap at the QB position, for the sake of competition? Or do you intend to bring in a cheaper veteran, in which case I ask you, who? We had a veteran, "Super Bowl winner" in Banks and I think we know what he is worth. We have Europe league MVP Dave Ragone, who didn't play this year because he was a joke in practice (and yes, I have that from people who sat through every practice this year.)

I am simply asking who would you like us to bring in to compete with Carr? That is not a slam on any of your opinions, just a question for my own education and for discussion.

What you seem to be describing is a coach adapting to a player's strengths, not the player telling the coach what to do. Do you have any kind of a link for a better description of what transpired?

Giving feedback to the coach (a) isn't what you were suggesting and (b) is something we have virtually no idea about. We do know Carr went to the Texans at the end of last season about changes that needed to be made. It appears the Texans went almost the exact opposite of what Carr wanted in the transition to Pendry. Basically though we have no idea how much Carr told Palmer, Capers and Pendry about how he would like things run. Once again, are you suggesting Carr is only a leader if he told the staff to stick it and started calling his own plays in the huddle and are you suggesting Young has ever defied, i.e. refused to follow, Mack Brown's directives?

Carr was very frustrated with the playcalling both this year and last and repeatedly asked the coaches to alter it. He got his wish against Arizona when they let him call the plays in the first half and put up 24 points (against a crappy D, I know, but still, how many other crappy Ds did we make look like Pro Bowl units this year).

There is a chain of command in this league and what you are describing, tsip, is not "taking the bull by the horns" but anarchy. Players who outright refuse to do what coaches are told end up traded or on unemployment. I too would like to see a link of the news story at least that describes "Vince sticking it to Mack," because until I see at least that, I am going to assume you are completely distorting it.

tulexan
01-20-2006, 10:28 AM
I can give you about 8 million reasons why in about two weeks....and another 20 million over the past four years. If you are going to pay a guy like a top ten QB, then he needs to be one. If VY is picked #1 overall and the Texans are still sub-500 after his first 59 starts then you can bet he will be getting railed just the same.

I only played through HS, but to me the quarterback is the de facto leader of the offense. When you are picked #1 overall, there are expectations and in hindsight, Carr wasn't worthy of the #1 overall. No, it's not his fault and he's not a bad guy because of it. He's a multi-millionaire who's being questioned about why he should continue to receive more millions by being the starting QB for the Texans. Should he receive carte blanche and a get out of jail free card just because he's a good guy, hasn't been given a fair shake in some opinions, or just because he has potential? No. Carr has never had to compete for his job and that is one of the single worst decisions this franchise has made to date. Let him compete for the job with a legitimate #2 and let the cards fall where they may. I want the best QB in there whether it's Carr, Vince or anyone else who can lead this team deep into the playoffs. The blind loyalty displayed by the Vince homers is surpassed only at times by those who want to keep Carr just because he 'hasn't had a chance.'

But there are several examples of successful teams where the QB has not been the leader. Usually the leader of a team is one of the veterans who have been on the team for a long time and are well respected by everyone. NFL veterans are not going to accept a rookie coming in and being the leader of the team when they have been in the league for 10 years. Big Ben was publicly criticized by Alan Faneca when he said "Do you want to go work with some little young kid who's just out of college?". Big Ben obviously has more respect on the team now, but I doubt that he is the leader of the team. If I had to guess I would say that the leader is Jerome Bettis. Marshall Faulk had been the leader in the late 90's and early 00's for the Rams. Sure, there are a lot of teams that have the QB as the leader, but it is not something that is a requirement for a team.

Big B Texan Fan
01-20-2006, 10:32 AM
But there are several examples of successful teams where the QB has not been the leader. Usually the leader of a team is one of the veterans who have been on the team for a long time and are well respected by everyone. NFL veterans are not going to accept a rookie coming in and being the leader of the team when they have been in the league for 10 years. Big Ben was publicly criticized by Alan Faneca when he said "Do you want to go work with some little young kid who's just out of college?". Big Ben obviously has more respect on the team now, but I doubt that he is the leader of the team. If I had to guess I would say that the leader is Jerome Bettis. Marshall Faulk had been the leader in the late 90's and early 00's for the Rams. Sure, there are a lot of teams that have the QB as the leader, but it is not something that is a requirement for a team.
Yeah, but when there is no obvious leader on the team, people will automatically look at the #1 overall pick QB.

Mr. White
01-20-2006, 12:35 PM
IMO, the team takes on the personality of the coach. We've all heard it before (in football, even in business, in the military, etc.) Capers just didn't have much of a personality.

If you look for team leaders on this team, they were on defense. Sharper, Glenn, and now (like it or not) Walker. In order for a leader to emerge, there should be some kind of collective identity.

Since the team didn't have much of an identity, I think that Carr wasn't given a chance to lead. My point is that the jury's still out on Carr's leadership abilities. While I think that VY should be the future of the franchise, I don't think that "because VY's a leader and DC isn't" is a real good reason.

tulexan
01-20-2006, 12:37 PM
I like what John Fox has been doing. I saw on ESPN how John Fox chooses a different player each week to address the team and give a motivational speech. By doing this, he makes each player accountable for the entire team and creates a collective leadership rather than a single player.

aj.
01-20-2006, 12:40 PM
I think that Carr wasn't given a chance to lead. .

Everyone gets a chance to lead, every minute of every day in some way, shape, or form.

Leaders emerge in times of adversity.

Runner
01-20-2006, 12:57 PM
Everyone gets a chance to lead, every minute of every day in some way, shape, or form.


That reminded me of an interesting story I heard at the start of the 2004 season. Pendry was new here and he had taken over as o-line coach. In an attempt to add some hustle and aggression to our o-line, he mandated that all lineman run up to the line at the break of the huddle. There are a couple of teams that do that. I think it really looks like a go-get-em attitude; I don't know if it affects play or not. Anyway, they had to drop that idea because during pre-season and training camp practices one of our o-lineman could never get to the line with the rest of them. He was always one or two steps behind which made the unit look rag tag and disorganized (looking back, I guess that was a portent of the future).

I throw this out here as an example. It seems it is a very minor thing, but did the lagging player show lack of leadership? It's interesting, because that player is considered by many, if not most, on this board as our best o-lineman.

Kaiser Toro
01-20-2006, 01:08 PM
I throw this out here as an example. It seems it is a very minor thing, but did the lagging player show lack of leadership? It's interesting, because that player is considered by many, if not most, on this board as our best o-lineman.

I would say no, if it shows anything it was that he was not in shape. Now if he was lagging because he thought the "ritual" was sophomoric then his lack of buying in would be a ding in my opinion. Especially if he did not bring any other ideas to the table for another ritual that could foster Oline unity.

Runner
01-20-2006, 01:12 PM
I would say no, if it shows anything it was that he was not in shape. Now if he was lagging because he thought the "ritual" was sophomoric then his lack of buying in would be a ding in my opinion. Especially if he did not bring any other ideas to the table for another ritual that could foster Oline unity.

I don't know the reason; it seems so simple to do. What is it, 5 steps? Everybody else bought in.

I thought somebody was doing it this weekend - Indy or Pittsburgh maybe?


I'm hoping nobody is going to say he was the leader because he did it is way instead of the coach's. :(

tsip
01-20-2006, 03:12 PM
"Vince sticking it to Mack"

It's one thing to randomly attribute quotes to the wrong poster, but reading into another posters thoughts that aren't there is kinda a low blow...

http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?action=detail&pk=FBCTEXASQB-07-22-05

SESupergenius
01-20-2006, 06:44 PM
That Brady, he sure should have been a better leader in the playoffs. I mean even though their talent level was down, the Patriots should have been led by Brady to win every game.

Payton Manning is not a leader, he just throws the ball and tries to outsmart you.

Dan Marino didn't win a Super Bowl, he's not a leader. Nor is any other Hall of Famer that didn't win a Super Bowl.

That Trent Dilfer....now there's a leader.

Wolf
01-20-2006, 07:27 PM
I will paraphrase what some people said and that I agree with

Leaders:
someone that the team believes in no matter what the situation is.

like someone said Leaders emerge .. I totally agree.

With that said.

I will give defense to Carr.
Capers offense IMO.. left the training wheels on him. Due to no offensive line.. they "protected" him by runing draw playes over and over on 3rd and long(we all know how predictable the playcalling was).. I can't remember a time when Carr changed a play at the line of scrimmage and it wasn't a run over the left side.. Lack of talent around him (i.e. street freeagents for 2 years) hurt his progress.

I also don't know if Capers and his staff didn't trust David and if that is the case that is why the "training wheels" were left on him.. I don't know ... All I know is Eli Manning is calling plays at the line of scrimmage.. pointing out just like his brother does.. and only time I have seen that with Carr the play is the same.. run to the left..

infantrycak
01-20-2006, 11:53 PM
Dan Marino didn't win a Super Bowl, he's not a leader. Nor is any other Hall of Famer that didn't win a Super Bowl.

Interesting piece of trivia on ESPN today. Only 24 QB's have won superbowls. Maybe acting as if QB's winning SB's is the benchmark is aiming just a tad bit high.

Tale Gator
01-21-2006, 10:32 AM
I agree ^^^ certainly Jim Kelly should be considered a strong leader even though he never won the big one.

bckey
01-21-2006, 11:35 AM
A couple excerpts from an interesting article


Let's take a look at some of the greatest running backs who have ever played the game and how they did when it comes to the Super Bowls which, after all, is why they play the games. O.J. Simpson never even played in one. Eric Dickerson didn't win one. Negative for Barry Sanders too. Emmitt Smith won a bunch but he also had Troy Aikman. Walter Payton didn't win a Super Bowl until the Bears had one of the best defenses in league history in 1985. Gale Sayers, the guy who Bush is most often compared to, never even played in a playoff game! How about some of the most productive runners from recent years. Jerome Bettis? Curtis Martin? LaDainian Tomlinson? No, No and No.



However from 1993 to 2001 seven of the nine Super Bowl's were won by teams quarterbacked by former 1st round picks, and that doesn't include Brett Favre who went 33rd overall and was later traded to Green Bay for a #1 pick.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/whos1.html

Kaiser Toro
01-21-2006, 11:37 AM
A couple excerpts from an interesting article


Let's take a look at some of the greatest running backs who have ever played the game and how they did when it comes to the Super Bowls which, after all, is why they play the games. O.J. Simpson never even played in one. Eric Dickerson didn't win one. Negative for Barry Sanders too. Emmitt Smith won a bunch but he also had Troy Aikman. Walter Payton didn't win a Super Bowl until the Bears had one of the best defenses in league history in 1985. Gale Sayers, the guy who Bush is most often compared to, never even played in a playoff game! How about some of the most productive runners from recent years. Jerome Bettis? Curtis Martin? LaDainian Tomlinson? No, No and No.



However from 1993 to 2001 seven of the nine Super Bowl's were won by teams quarterbacked by former 1st round picks, and that doesn't include Brett Favre who went 33rd overall and was later traded to Green Bay for a #1 pick.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/whos1.html

None of those QB's were picked #1.

infantrycak
01-21-2006, 02:57 PM
None of those QB's were picked #1.

Well, but at some point you start parsing the potentially intersecting groups too small. There have only been 24 QB's to ever win a SB. There have during the SB era been how many QB's taken #1 in the draft--maybe 25 or so. Aikman was one in the ones in both groups. With all the variables affecting who wins the SB, it doesn't strike me as all that odd that the number of #1 QB's to win the SB is small. I am sure you could say the same about #2 or #3, etc. Heck with Aikman and Brady you could say first pick of the draft and last pick of the 6th round have an almost equal chance of success. Simply too small a test set to draw a conclusion IMO. Taking teams to the playoffs seems more realistic IMO.

Kaiser Toro
01-21-2006, 04:29 PM
Well, but at some point you start parsing the potentially intersecting groups too small. There have only been 24 QB's to ever win a SB. There have during the SB era been how many QB's taken #1 in the draft--maybe 25 or so. Aikman was one in the ones in both groups. With all the variables affecting who wins the SB, it doesn't strike me as all that odd that the number of #1 QB's to win the SB is small. I am sure you could say the same about #2 or #3, etc. Heck with Aikman and Brady you could say first pick of the draft and last pick of the 6th round have an almost equal chance of success. Simply too small a test set to draw a conclusion IMO. Taking teams to the playoffs seems more realistic IMO.

I look it at from when the salary cap ear was installed in 1993. Those are the fiscal rules that we play under and we should look at how teams are comprised since. Being a bad team means high draft picks, high draft picks, such as the #1, do not yield Super Bowls rings except for Orlando Pace.

big homey
01-21-2006, 08:37 PM
I look it at from when the salary cap ear was installed in 1993. Those are the fiscal rules that we play under and we should look at how teams are comprised since. Being a bad team means high draft picks, high draft picks, such as the #1, do not yield Super Bowls rings except for Orlando Pace.
The last #1 pick in the salary cap era to win a SB was an offensive lineman.
Hmm...

texplayer2
01-21-2006, 09:02 PM
A couple excerpts from an interesting article


Let's take a look at some of the greatest running backs who have ever played the game and how they did when it comes to the Super Bowls which, after all, is why they play the games. O.J. Simpson never even played in one. Eric Dickerson didn't win one. Negative for Barry Sanders too. Emmitt Smith won a bunch but he also had Troy Aikman. Walter Payton didn't win a Super Bowl until the Bears had one of the best defenses in league history in 1985. Gale Sayers, the guy who Bush is most often compared to, never even played in a playoff game! How about some of the most productive runners from recent years. Jerome Bettis? Curtis Martin? LaDainian Tomlinson? No, No and No.



However from 1993 to 2001 seven of the nine Super Bowl's were won by teams quarterbacked by former 1st round picks, and that doesn't include Brett Favre who went 33rd overall and was later traded to Green Bay for a #1 pick.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/whos1.html

Whew! Man its a good thing we got Carr then.:)

infantrycak
01-21-2006, 09:12 PM
I look it at from when the salary cap ear was installed in 1993. Those are the fiscal rules that we play under and we should look at how teams are comprised since. Being a bad team means high draft picks, high draft picks, such as the #1, do not yield Super Bowls rings except for Orlando Pace.

Well, seems to me you are parsing it down even further, and this into the absurdly unlikely. Seriously, 12 years of drafts and you are going to conclude #1 status is unimportant/unjustified or a bad sign for SB success just because only one of the 12 have made it so far. Seems like an unjustified needle in the haystack search IMO.

Kaiser Toro
01-22-2006, 12:32 AM
Well, seems to me you are parsing it down even further, and this into the absurdly unlikely. Seriously, 12 years of drafts and you are going to conclude #1 status is unimportant/unjustified or a bad sign for SB success just because only one of the 12 have made it so far. Seems like an unjustified needle in the haystack search IMO.

Well, it is my take and one that is fiscally driven. Fiscally driven takes usually take into account historical data to build out any models. To invest 12% of your cap into an unproven youngin' at the professional level has not shown to be the most fiscally prudent move given the length of the average NFL career and that there are 52 other guys that need to be paid accordingly. Dollars and sense do seem to trump hype and frivilous spending for developing potential in the salary cap era.

Wake up and smell the cap. :)

infantrycak
01-22-2006, 08:34 AM
Well, it is my take and one that is fiscally driven. Fiscally driven takes usually take into account historical data to build out any models. To invest 12% of your cap into an unproven youngin' at the professional level has not shown to be the most fiscally prudent move given the length of the average NFL career and that there are 52 other guys that need to be paid accordingly. Dollars and sense do seem to trump hype and frivilous spending for developing potential in the salary cap era.

Wake up and smell the cap. :)

I understand your cap point very well and have spent quite a bit of time trying to get people to consider it in their off-season suggestions for the Texans. My point is the sample set is too small to conclude #1 pick QB's in the cap era aren't worth the money. I agree with your general point, just not your specific methodology.

Vinny
01-22-2006, 11:05 AM
Well, it is my take and one that is fiscally driven. Fiscally driven takes usually take into account historical data to build out any models. To invest 12% of your cap into an unproven youngin' at the professional level has not shown to be the most fiscally prudent move given the length of the average NFL career and that there are 52 other guys that need to be paid accordingly. Dollars and sense do seem to trump hype and frivilous spending for developing potential in the salary cap era.

Wake up and smell the cap. :)You can say this about just about any position. How many number 1 WR's like Braylon Edwards ever won a SB, or number 1 RB's, or #1 overall DE's won a SB? 32 teams start a season and only one finish with the trophy. Elite QB's are rare and worth taking a shot at one high where you have blue chip talents.

Kaiser Toro
01-22-2006, 11:14 AM
You can say this about just about any position. How many number 1 WR's like Braylon Edwards ever won a SB, or number 1 RB's, or #1 overall DE's won a SB? Elite QB's are rare and worth taking a shot at one high where you have blue chip talents.

You could, but it is all about development. In the corporate world companies are concerned that if they spend to much money on training, and their competitors are not, they may be risking return by training a force and losing them to the competition. We see this many times especially in the NFL with the QB position. Having a guy sit for a couple of years making 7 million is not good value. Then if they do not pan out they go and find a new home and most often find success. The ramp time for the QB is like no other where you are getting no return on investment for a couple of years and you can't spend those dollars elsewhere.

It really is about how you allocate funds. I just see two players at 3.5 mil will have more of an impact than a guy at 7 mil per out of college.

Vinny
01-22-2006, 11:18 AM
You may not think it's not good value but you cannot win in the NFL consistantly with a bad QB...or have a historic defense to pair with him. The QB touches the ball every play and you just have to take a chance on this position when you find elite prospects. As good as Ladanian Tomlinson is the Chargers, they didn't start playing well until Drew Brees started playing well. For every Tom Brady on the second day you have 30 BJ Symmons. If you were awarded a crown for cap manipulation I'd agree with you...but talent wins in the NFL and there is enough room to take chances. Teams just will continue to take risks on talent at the QB position high in every draft.

Kaiser Toro
01-22-2006, 11:26 AM
You may not think it's not good value but you cannot win in the NFL consistantly with a bad QB...or have a historic defense to pair with him. The QB touches the ball every play and you just have to take a chance on this position when you find elite prospects. As good as Ladanian Tomlinson is the Chargers, they didn't start playing well until Drew Brees started playing well. For every Tom Brady on the second day you have 30 BJ Symmons. If you were awarded a crown for cap manipulation I'd agree with you...but talent wins in the NFL and there is enough room to take chances. Teams just will continue to take risks on talent at the QB position high in every draft.

I would love to continue to virtually spar with you but I got a pork shoulder in the oven and have to start channeling spirits of Steelers past so that we can have our coach in place.

Terrible Towel, check.
Iron city Beer, check.
Pierogies, check.
Warrant, Poison and Dokken CD's in carousel, check.
Cut off shirt, check.
Acid washed jeans, never.