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View Full Version : What's the difference between Carr and P. Manning?


SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 01:50 PM
Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.

jerek
01-17-2006, 01:57 PM
*sigh*

This is a gross generalization. While I appreciate the point you are trying to make (regarding the importance of O-line, if I am reading this correctly), you cannot expect to make a case or get by on this kind of ridiculously oversimplified line of thinking.

infantrycak
01-17-2006, 01:57 PM
I wouldn't go near that far, but it sure is interesting to see how Manning reacts the 1 or 2 times a year when an opponent gets consistant pressure--happy feet, fails to make good progression reads (see Dallas Clark and Edge open on subsequent plays at the end of the game where Peyton was locked on to the primary) and starts prematurely avoiding contact--hmmm sounds like a lot of the same symptoms mere mortal QB's have.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 01:59 PM
*sigh*

This is a gross generalization. While I appreciate the point you are trying to make (regarding the importance of O-line, if I am reading this correctly), you cannot expect to make a case or get by on this kind of ridiculously oversimplified line of thinking.

Great argument....

:rolleyes:

HardKnockTexan
01-17-2006, 01:59 PM
I was at the Cardinal game and got to watch first hand as Carr called plays at the LOS. Even though the Cards secondary was banged up Carr had his best half of the year when he was in controll of the situation. I'd say the biggest difference between Carr and Manning is that Manning has the faith of his coaching staff to make the proper decissions at the line of scrimage where Carr has only had 1 half of a game to show what he can do if given the chance.

thegr8fan
01-17-2006, 02:19 PM
night and day, since we are grossly overgeneralizing things, that would have to be my answer.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 02:25 PM
night and day, since we are grossly overgeneralizing things, that would have to be my answer.

Another post with the same superb argument.....:sarcasm:

During the season.....yes, night and day. During the season....Manning's got protection while Carr throughout the entire season doesn't.

During the post-season, when teams bring their best against Manning, thus actually going after him, breaking through the line.......he buckles just like Carr does with no protection.

When defenders break through....

Manning is like a deer caught by head lights.

Carr.....same.

Big overgeneralization alright.

With no protection....they perform the same.

With protection we've seen signs of greatness in Carr. Manning has it during the season so we see what he can do. We also see what he can't do with no protection........same with Carr.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 02:25 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk but this thread is absolutely a joke and really has nothing relevant about it. Manning, even after getting pounded, still put 15 points on the board in the 4th and had his team in a postion to go to OT..even after being outplayed all game. Manning has been an NFL MVP who smartly knows what calls to make at the line of scrimmage. He works non-stop on his timing with his receivers and the countless progressions and practice he and Harrison and Wayne put in after practice and before games has been the stuff that I have seen in two TV segments about them. Carr doesn't watch film or stay after practice. You can't knock a guy from elite status because someone had a better game plan. You don't see Manning staring down one receiver or holding the ball too long when it isn't the O-lines fault. To make a jump like this is ludicrous. You don't see Carr making the throws that Manning makes or the decisions, plain and simple. They are not on the same level. Where has been Carr's signs of greatness? In order to proclaim this you have to see a level that is CONSISTENT. One half against a horrible Arizona team or a Jacksonville game two years ago doesn't get the job done. Stop stirring the pot with this drivel. Manning was 22 of 38 with 290 yards and a TD with no interceptions on a horrible day. That is Carrs best day most of the time.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 02:35 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk but this thread is absolutely a joke and really has nothing relevant about it. Manning, even after getting pounded, still put 15 points on the board in the 4th and had his team in a postion to go to OT..even after being outplayed all game. Manning has been an NFL MVP who smartly knows what calls to make at the line of scrimmage. He works non-stop on his timing with his receivers and the countless progressions and praactice he and Harrison and Wayne put in after practice and before games has been the stuff that I have seen in two TV segments about them. You can't knock a guy from elite status because someone had a better game plan. You don't see Manning staring down one receiver or holding the ball too long when it isn't the O-lines fault. To make a jump like this is ludicrous. You don't see carr making the throws that Manning makes or the decisions, plain and simple. They are not on the same level. Where has been Carr's signs of greatness. In order to proclaim this you have to see a level that is CONSISTENT. One half against a horrible Arizona team or a Jacksonville game two years ago doesn't get the job done. Stop stirring the pot with this drivel.

That's strange cause in every post-season when he's faced the same dilemna Carr faces all season.....Manning breaks down. What good does a 13-0 start to a season do, all the practice and having slumber parties with his team mates do you when the opposition is in your face....your brain farts up?

I saw Manning stare down receivers cause there were plenty of times other guys were open.....but guess what........he didn't see them cause he freaked when having guys come at him. What happened? Busted plays, that's what.

Sure Manning can be an MVP multiple times.....something Carr has never been or done. He has the luxury of not being hurried or having the defense in his face the way Carr does however. So....under different circumstances, Manning with protection and Carr without........yes, they are in no way comparable. But....stick them in the same circumstances..............they fare the same. When Carr's had protection.....he's performed very well. But that's quickly forgotten since those instances are few and far between. I don't know if you forgot but Carr does have a rediculous record of the being the QB sacked the most in 4 years.

In the playoffs of the 2004 season........after making record setting TDs in a season, after having also placed a record for being the only QB to have 3 WRs with 10 TDs each, respectively..........he goes into the post-season to face the Pats and he doesn't get a SINGLE TD. That's pitiful. You have all these TDs in the season.........break and make a record for it......but when the pressure is finally on.........you get ZERO of them. Ludicrous!!

Say as you please.......under the same circumstances........Manning is no different than Carr................UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES!!! Clear enough???

eriadoc
01-17-2006, 02:40 PM
The first half of last season, I think we all saw what Carr CAN do, and the line play was not stellar, just average. This season, the entire team melted down and the offensive line was worse than in Year One, at least until they bumped Riley out. With improved line play next year and some decent coaching, I see no reason why Carr cannot improve upon 2004's numbers.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 02:41 PM
That's strange cause in every post-season when he's faced the same dilemna Carr faces all season.....Manning breaks down. What good does a 13-0 start to a season do, all the practice and having slumber parties with his team mates do you when the opposition is in your face....your brain farts up?

I saw Manning stare down receivers cause there were plenty of times other guys were open.....but guess what........he didn't see them cause he freaked when having guys come at him. What happened? Busted plays, that's what.

Sure Manning can be an MVP multiple times.....something Carr has never been or done. He has the luxury of not being hurried or having the defense in his face the way Carr does however. So....under different circumstances, Manning with protection and Carr without........yes, they are in no way comparable. But....stick them in the same circumstances..............they fare the same.

In the playoffs of the 2004 season........after making record setting TDs in a season, after having also placed a record for being the only QB to have 3 WRs with 10 TDs each, respectively..........he goes into the post-season to face the Pats and he doesn't get a SINGLE TD. That's pitiful. You have all these TDs in the season.........break and make a record for it......but when the pressure is finally on.........you get ZERO of them. Ludicrous!!

Say as you please.......under the same circumstances........Manning is no different than Carr................UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES!!! Clear enough???

Your post was a rambling diatribe of contradictions. In one sentence he is the same because he folds under presssure yet in another he can still win games and get a team to the playoffs and be an MVP with the pressure and somehow he is just like Carr, a guy who has won nothing or taken a team anywhere. Huh? So your saying that Elway and Young were failures because they lost in 3-4 years or more of the playoffs before winning their first one?But somehow these guys had to GET to the post season to even have a chance. Something Carr doesn't do. If he is so bad then why does Manning get blitzed all season and still produce. And why don't you have an answer for his stats in the game when he had no turnovers, 290 yards a TD?Wouldn't you think that their defense, who was ranked high all year and gave up all the points and the 8 minute drives would be responsible?You really are making no sense at all. So no, it is not clear enough. Please don't ramble like RainMan on crack again. When you can answer when Carr got knocked around like that, still had 290 yards, a TD and no picks and the team still had a chance to win, then your point can be made. But you can't because it has never happened and it sure as heck never happened in a playoff game.

Maddict5
01-17-2006, 02:43 PM
Carson Palmer,Tom Brady,Peyton Manning,Matt Hassellback,Donovan Mc Nabb,Ben etc. what do they all have in common apart from being regarded as the best qbs-excellent o-lines and run games. the best example of o-line importance is Culpepper-last year with excellent protection he was brilliant-this years with bad protection int magnet. note to every football fan: if the majority of qbs in the nfl are given time and a running game they will look good. thats why ferguson ,bentley and other o-line should be our off-season offensive moves

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 02:46 PM
The first half of last season, I think we all saw what Carr CAN do, and the line play was not stellar, just average. This season, the entire team melted down and the offensive line was worse than in Year One, at least until they bumped Riley out. With improved line play next year and some decent coaching, I see no reason why Carr cannot improve upon 2004's numbers.
And 2004's numbers weren't bad, considering Carr still had many games where the line broke down. I mean...bad protections always been a problem for him. I wonder what Manning would have done in Carr's position in 2004. Would he have had as good a year Carr did with that O-line? Looking at the games in which Manning gets pressured.....I'd heavily doubt it. 2005 season was too ridiculous..........NO QB could perform under those circumstances........NO QB, NO WAY, NO HOW! I don't see why people down Carr the way they do. That line is piss poor...........and not to mention the poor excuse of a coaching staff Carr had to deal with.

The coaches didn't have confidence/faith in their plan, playing musical chairs with their linemen..........how could the lineman themselves have confidence in the coaches plans if the coaches didn't have faith in it? What did this project into? You guessed it...........SACKS GALORE!!

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 02:48 PM
Your post was a rambling diatribe of contradictions. In one sentence he is the same because he folds under presssure yet in another he can still win games and get a team to the playoffs and be an MVP with the pressure and somehow he is just like Carr, a guy who has won nothing or taken a team anywhere. Huh? So your saying that Elway and Young were failures because they lost in 3-4 years or more of the playoffs before winning their first one?But somehow these guys had to GET to the post season to even have a chance. Something Carr doesn't do. If he is so bad then why does Manning get blitzed all season and still produce. And why don't you have an answer for his stats in the game when he had no turnovers, 290 yards a TD?Wouldn't you think that their defense, who was ranked high all year and gave up all the points and the 8 minute drives would be responsible?You really are making no sense at all. So no, it is not clear enough. Please don't ramble like RainMan on crack again. When you can answer when Carr got knocked around like that, still had 290 yards, a TD and no picks and the team still had a chance to win, then your point can be made. But you can't because it has never happened and it sure as heck never happened in a playoff game.

You need to learn to read. I didn't contradict myself. Read it again.


Edit: As an addendum. There's more to making a point in a post than just sentence structure (your forte). Again....read it, compute it....then come at me.

The Preacher
01-17-2006, 02:51 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk but this thread is absolutely a joke and really has nothing relevant about it. Manning, even after getting pounded, still put 15 points on the board in the 4th and had his team in a postion to go to OT..even after being outplayed all game. Manning has been an NFL MVP who smartly knows what calls to make at the line of scrimmage. He works non-stop on his timing with his receivers and the countless progressions and practice he and Harrison and Wayne put in after practice and before games has been the stuff that I have seen in two TV segments about them. Carr doesn't watch film or stay after practice. You can't knock a guy from elite status because someone had a better game plan. You don't see Manning staring down one receiver or holding the ball too long when it isn't the O-lines fault. To make a jump like this is ludicrous. You don't see Carr making the throws that Manning makes or the decisions, plain and simple. They are not on the same level. Where has been Carr's signs of greatness? In order to proclaim this you have to see a level that is CONSISTENT. One half against a horrible Arizona team or a Jacksonville game two years ago doesn't get the job done. Stop stirring the pot with this drivel. Manning was 22 of 38 with 290 yards and a TD with no interceptions on a horrible day. That is Carrs best day most of the time.


Not to be a jerk either but I believe it is incredibly relevant and if my computer hadn't been down the last day I would have started the same thread. I would have prefaced it by saying the obvious difference is in their experience, stats, and success but the thread is about the difference when neither has good o-line protection. The answer to that is essentially not much. Both get sacked and put up scratch #'s. Yeah Peyton got the late TD but really the stats should have showed an INT, the result of constant pressure and little confidence in having more time. The bottom line is that NFL QB's look horrible when they have no time and if Peyton essentially getting shut down doesn't prove that then I don't know what to say. The second bottom line is the Texans need to forget about playmakers because when there is no blocking there will be little offense to be had. Personally if the Texans draft Reggie I'll still root for them but I'll expect the exact same sort of production.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 02:53 PM
You need to learn to read. I didn't contradict myself. Read it again.

I did and again it made no sense and went in 10 directions. You have no answer for statistics or any facts I brought out. Same as you accused others of doing above. You can't make the argument at all. You are now personally attacking me instead of the facts!!You have not made one relevant point. To be an NFL QB, you need more than just an O-line. You need to study, you need to work with your teammates. You need to make it to the playoffs. I saw Steve Young get his head handed to him against the Cowboys in an NFC title game and he lost 3 times before winning the SB. So did that make him a loser that was the same as Carr?No, it meant that his team had a bad day. He still was a winner who could lead and get his team to a point where they could, AS A TEAM, compete. Carr has neither shown the leadership, the extra work or any of these qualities, even in defeat.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 02:56 PM
The second bottom line is the Texans need to forget about playmakers because when there is no blocking there will be little offense to be had. Personally if the Texans draft Reggie I'll still root for them but I'll expect the exact same sort of production.

F'en A! Let's hope Kubiak makes the most of what we've got. Great point man.....no matter what talent in the playmakers you have there at your disposal.....they'll do you no good if you don't protect the QB.

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2006, 02:57 PM
Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.

Manning has been able to step out of the ominous shadow of David Carr and has won 3 playoff games in his career.

Comical how Carr comparisions revolve around other's one game short comings and Carr's great half against the Arizona Cardinals at the end of the season when neither had anything to play for.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 02:59 PM
Not to be a jerk either but I believe it is incredibly relevant and if my computer hadn't been down the last day I would have started the same thread. I would have prefaced it by saying the obvious difference is in their experience, stats, and success but the thread is about the difference when neither has good o-line protection. The answer to that is essentially not much. Both get sacked and put up scratch #'s. Yeah Peyton got the late TD but really the stats should have showed an INT, the result of constant pressure and little confidence in having more time. The bottom line is that NFL QB's look horrible when they have no time and if Peyton essentially getting shut down doesn't prove that then I don't know what to say. The second bottom line is the Texans need to forget about playmakers because when there is no blocking there will be little offense to be had. Personally if the Texans draft Reggie I'll still root for them but I'll expect the exact same sort of production.

So how does one account for the fact that most coaches, commentators, etc literally call Carr out for taking many of his own sacks by holding the ball too long and staring down receivers?Some how these other QBs took their knocks and learned the lesson yet Carr hasn't.

HJam72
01-17-2006, 03:00 PM
Manning has a MUCH better team around him. He's also more experienced and, besides, Carr doesn't need to be Peyton Manning to be worth keeping.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 03:02 PM
Manning has been able to step out of the ominous shadow of David Carr and has won 3 playoff games in his career.

Comical how Carr comparisions revolve around other's one game short comings and Carr's great half against the Arizona Cardinals at the end of the season when neither had anything to play for.

:ok: Thank you. Maybe we should go get every QB that was a dud but showed potential and give them a line and they should all be the same! It is everyones fault but the QB.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:03 PM
I did and again it made no sense and went in 10 directions. You have no answer for statistics or any facts I brought out. Same as you accused others of doing above. You can't make the argument at all.
The argument you've brought up has been nullified by Manning's lackluster performance when defenses actually come at him. You're taking shots at nothing but air here man.

I said that when Manning has protection and Carr doesn't, which is their state during the season..........sure Manning can be the MVP, break records, stuff he's done. He's got protection while Carr doesn't. There....they are very distinct.

However, when you put them under the same circumstances, having defenders in his face in practically not ime.........they are no different or rather, Manning's no better than Carr is.

jerek
01-17-2006, 03:03 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk but this thread is absolutely a joke and really has nothing relevant about it. Manning, even after getting pounded, still put 15 points on the board in the 4th and had his team in a postion to go to OT..even after being outplayed all game. Manning has been an NFL MVP who smartly knows what calls to make at the line of scrimmage. He works non-stop on his timing with his receivers and the countless progressions and practice he and Harrison and Wayne put in after practice and before games has been the stuff that I have seen in two TV segments about them. Carr doesn't watch film or stay after practice. You can't knock a guy from elite status because someone had a better game plan. You don't see Manning staring down one receiver or holding the ball too long when it isn't the O-lines fault. To make a jump like this is ludicrous. You don't see Carr making the throws that Manning makes or the decisions, plain and simple. They are not on the same level. Where has been Carr's signs of greatness? In order to proclaim this you have to see a level that is CONSISTENT. One half against a horrible Arizona team or a Jacksonville game two years ago doesn't get the job done. Stop stirring the pot with this drivel. Manning was 22 of 38 with 290 yards and a TD with no interceptions on a horrible day. That is Carrs best day most of the time.

Not to nitpick, because I still believe in Carr I could not and would not compare him to Manning, but Manning had an INT that game, the refs just decided they were going to bone Pittsburgh out of it.

Manning looked horrible, plain and simple. His protection struggled but so did he when faced with aggressive, intelligent defense. And how the hell do you know that Carr doesn't watch film or stay after practice?

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:04 PM
Manning has been able to step out of the ominous shadow of David Carr and has won 3 playoff games in his career.

Comical how Carr comparisions revolve around other's one game short comings and Carr's great half against the Arizona Cardinals at the end of the season when neither had anything to play for.


A couple of you here are comparing careers. That isn't the point of the thread. The point is that under the same cirumstance of having defenders in your face, with bad protection.........Manning is no better than Carr.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:05 PM
Manning looked horrible, plain and simple. His protection struggled but so did he when faced with aggressive, intelligent defense. And how the hell do you know that Carr doesn't watch film or stay after practice?

So in essence..........when pressured, he looked like Carr...............underperformed by a grand scale.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 03:13 PM
The argument you've brought up has been nullified by Manning's lackluster performance when defenses actually come at him. You're taking shots at nothing but air here man.

I said that when Manning has protection and Carr doesn't, which is their state during the season..........sure Manning can be the MVP, break records, stuff he's done. He's got protection while Carr doesn't. There....they are very distinct.

However, when you put them under the same circumstances, having defenders in his face in practically not ime.........they are no different or rather, Manning's no better than Carr is.

How can you call 290 yards, a TD a horrible game even when he was getting pounded?I don't care about the bad ref call. It is a team game and considering he got pounded he still had his team with a chance to win. You are comparing that the two acted the same when they get pressure. When you can show me where Carr showed poise enough to post these stats in a career worst game then talk to me. You can't have it both ways. Carr rarely puts up those stats on the lines or his best day.

As for the staying after practice. It was reported earlier this year that teammates were having problems with the fact that he didn't stay after practice to work with receivers and to watch extra film. He told reporters that he had family obligations and that staying after wasn't something that he did but that he would watch film at home.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:14 PM
Manning has been able to step out of the ominous shadow of David Carr and has won 3 playoff games in his career.

Comical how Carr comparisions revolve around other's one game short comings and Carr's great half against the Arizona Cardinals at the end of the season when neither had anything to play for.

In the 4 games in which Manning was pressured with defenders in his face (same amount of time Carr has in the pocket game in-game out), he's had bad performances, no different than Carr.

2003 season AFC Championship game:

Loss to New England, very bad performance.

2004 season, game 1 on Thursday of the NFL season:

Loss To New England, very bad performance.

2004 season, divisional playoffs:

Loss to New England, ZERO TDs, extremely bad performance

2005 season, divisional playoffs:

Loss to Pittsburgh, bad peformance, loses in same fashion


The relevance of all those match ups is that he had pressure imposed on him and in all of them.........he couldn't handle that pressure. With no protection or limited time, he performs no different than Carr.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:24 PM
How can you call 290 yards, a TD a horrible game even when he was getting pounded?I don't care about the bad ref call. .

You're trying to disregard that bad call. That referee is going to be penalized heavily because of it. So for the sake of your argument in this thread.....no, you can't just disregard it and say it's not part of his performance.

It is sad to get 290 yards, a TD, and an INT which he was very fortunate to not be called as an INT and still not win the game! It was practically gift wrapped for him to do his thing. My GAWD.....Bettis.....BETTIS, my goodness....fumbles the ball at the two when the game was secured. Harper gave Manning and the Colts GREAT field position to win it, not tie it. Caus afterall.....Manning can do no wrong, right? LOL!! This gives Manning, "only the best QB, head, shoulders, waist, ankles above Carr", a chance to FINALLY win a game that gave him a run for his money. Even then....he doesn't win it. And that's having one of the best O-lines in the league, probably the best 3 WR tandem in the league, a superb running back and two pretty good TEs.

Your argument looks pretty futile my friend. And those stats you decided to mention are very deceiving. Manning went through hell Sunday and got a taste of what Carr has to deal with week in-week out.

The Preacher
01-17-2006, 03:31 PM
So how does one account for the fact that most coaches, commentators, etc literally call Carr out for taking many of his own sacks by holding the ball too long and staring down receivers?Some how these other QBs took their knocks and learned the lesson yet Carr hasn't.

I would rather he hold it than throw it to his only reliable receiver who is most likely blanketed by double coverage. I'm not sure what lessons other QB's have learned you're talking about. Maybe throw it away but the Texans are usually behind and if he thinks he can make a play and bring his team back, he'll hold it longer. He's never had the comfort of throwing it away and still feeling like his team could win. Peyton wasn't throwing it away at the end of the game yesterday-he had to bring his team back-result=more sacks.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 03:32 PM
In the 4 games in which Manning was pressured with defenders in his face (same amount of time Carr has in the pocket game in-game out), he's had bad performances, no different than Carr.

2003 season AFC Championship game:

Loss to New England, very bad performance.

2004 season, game 1 on Thursday of the NFL season:

Loss To New England, very bad performance.

2004 season, divisional playoffs:

Loss to New England, ZERO TDs, extremely bad performance

2005 season, divisional playoffs:

Loss to Pittsburgh, bad peformance, loses in same fashion


The relevance of all those match ups is that he had pressure imposed on him and in all of them.........he couldn't handle that pressure. With no protection or limited time, he performs no different than Carr.

So 4 games in his career vs, 4 full years for Carr?3 of those games against the eventual SB winner. If he was so easily rattled then why didn't every team in the league attack him like Carr every game and why weren't his stats the same?You can't have it both ways and say his line is great all the time, EXCEPT in 4 games and then he has bad games. That isn't the way it works. His line and he had bad games in some games and his bad games are as good as some of Carr's best games. It is apples and oranges. Why doesn't he get the label as a guy who holds onto the ball too long and takes bad sacks?You never answered that. Why doesn't Manning get a label of staring down guys and not reading defenses right? There is no comparison except for 4 games that you can think of. Carr has regressed and just blaming the line is a sop out.

TreWardTxn
01-17-2006, 03:32 PM
When you can answer when Carr got knocked around like that, still had 290 yards, a TD and no picks and the team still had a chance to win, then your point can be made. But you can't because it has never happened and it sure as heck never happened in a playoff game.

If the point you are making is Manning is better than Carr and still can't get the job done, then I understand what you're saying. But you've got to remember that he did throw a pick that should have ended the game, he was given new life by the head ref...

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 03:36 PM
You're trying to disregard that bad call. That referee is going to be penalized heavily because of it. So for the sake of your argument in this thread.....no, you can't just disregard it and say it's not part of his performance.

It is sad to get 290 yards, a TD, and an INT which he was very fortunate to not be called as an INT and still not win the game! It was practically gift wrapped for him to do his thing. My GAWD.....Bettis.....BETTIS, my goodness....fumbles the ball at the two when the game was secured. Harper gave Manning and the Colts GREAT field position to win it, not tie it. Caus afterall.....Manning can do no wrong, right? LOL!! This gives Manning, "only the best QB, head, shoulders, waist, ankles above Carr", a chance to FINALLY win a game that gave him a run for his money. Even then....he doesn't win it. And that's having one of the best O-lines in the league, probably the best 3 WR tandem in the league, a superb running back and two pretty good TEs.

Your argument looks pretty futile my friend. And those stats you decided to mention are very deceiving. Manning went through hell Sunday and got a taste of what Carr has to deal with week in-week out.

Seriously, I can't follow your thinking. Now you are saying that "how could he not have won with those stats when it was gift warapped?" TEAM game. Does he kick?Does he play defense?What is deceiving?He went through hell and still threw for a pretty good game and had his team on the brink of winning when a kicker missed it. He got them to s spot to go to OT. Even if you give him the interception he still LEAD his team. How is this going over your head. You have answered nothing. Your argument above went off an another tangent and is laughable. It is like arguing with Bubba Gump.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:36 PM
So 4 games in his career vs, 4 full years for Carr?3 of those games against the eventual SB winner. .
If my memory serves me correctly.......in the 2003 season when the Pats came here to Houston 2/3s down the season......the Texans with Carr at the helm took the Pats into overtime and the Pats just barely won with a field goal by Viniaterri.

Carr gave the Pats a lot harder time than Manning did that year in the post-season, the eventual Super Bowl winner. LMFAO!!!:redtowel:

HJam72
01-17-2006, 03:36 PM
Because Manning's line almost always does it's job and those 4 games are when they faced their toughest challenges and failed. It's really not hard to understand. The fact is that on those rare occasions that Manning's line fails, HE SUCKS, just like every other QB. When Carr gets protection, which is very rare, he does very well. Big surprise.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 03:37 PM
If the point you are making is Manning is better than Carr and still can't get the job done, then I understand what you're saying. But you've got to remember that he did throw a pick that should have ended the game, he was given new life by the head ref...

Great but is the call his fault?No. Did he do what he could after the call?Yes

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2006, 03:38 PM
A couple of you here are comparing careers. That isn't the point of the thread. The point is that under the same cirumstance of having defenders in your face, with bad protection.........Manning is no better than Carr.

This is your thread and your words:
Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.

So are we talking about career, the season, playoffs or one game?

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2006, 03:40 PM
In the 4 games in which Manning was pressured with defenders in his face (same amount of time Carr has in the pocket game in-game out), he's had bad performances, no different than Carr.

2003 season AFC Championship game:

Loss to New England, very bad performance.

2004 season, game 1 on Thursday of the NFL season:

Loss To New England, very bad performance.

2004 season, divisional playoffs:

Loss to New England, ZERO TDs, extremely bad performance

2005 season, divisional playoffs:

Loss to Pittsburgh, bad peformance, loses in same fashion


The relevance of all those match ups is that he had pressure imposed on him and in all of them.........he couldn't handle that pressure. With no protection or limited time, he performs no different than Carr.


So we are comparing Manning's peformance against playoff teams, in the playoffs, to Carr in the reagular season. Seems like a fair comparision to me.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 03:41 PM
Because Manning's line almost always does it's job and those 4 games are when they faced their toughest challenges and failed. It's really not hard to understand. The fact is that on those rare occasions that Manning's line fails, HE SUCKS, just like every other QB. When Carr gets protection, which is very rare, he does very well. Big surprise.

I really can't believe you people are so out there to be drinking the Carr kool-aid. Not one person has addressed his failure to improve. His problems holding the ball that has been discussed ad naseum by NFL honks. His ability to stare down receivers which was ridiculed on national TV. The fact that one of his lineman said he is not the leader of the team. How can this guy even compare to a guy like Manning. No one has answered me if Carr is close to Steve Young too because he got his tail handed to him in NFC Championship games before winning it all. Same with Favre. Under your type of history I could stick Ryan Leaf in the Colts Offense and he would be successful?Carr has shown nothing that approaches future greatness. Making excuses for his failures is a joke.

The Dream
01-17-2006, 03:42 PM
Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.


Every QB needs protection (I'll agree with you on that), but Carr isn't in the same stratosphere as Peyton Manning.

Peyton Manning = one of the best QB's to play the game

David Carr = average

GP
01-17-2006, 03:43 PM
"How can you call 290 yards, a TD a horrible game even when he was getting pounded?" - houstonfrog

------------------------------

Because Manning normaly gets about four TDs a game and racks up nearly 500 yards of passing per game. This season was a little under his usual performance, and the last four games were just awful.

Going 13-0 was the worst thing that could have happened to this team. They hadn;t played a meaningful game in over a month, and it got the best of them. Throw in the Dungy tragedy (when he's ALREADY a subdued coaching personality to begin with) and you just had the makings for this sort of game.

That whole Colts team Sunday looked exactly like our team did all season long: Frustrated, harassed, and outcoached.

Dude is right: If Manning had an entire season of what he produced this past Sunday, there would have been a firestorm of activity in the Colts front office (about week 4) to fire coaches, assistants, offensive linemen, the water boy, the mascot, the liquored up kicker, anybody they could have thrown overboard to stop the bleeding.

But it happens to our team and it's all David's fault.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:45 PM
This is your thread and your words:
Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different.





We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Mannin and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.

So are we talking about career, the season, playoffs or one game?

Ummmm....look at what I said again, "my words".

My point is that when pressure is put on both QBs, they perform no different.

During the season Manning doesn't have the same pressure issues as does Carr. But....it's in the post-season for some reason, and against the Chargers this season, week16.....that when Manning had guys coming to rip his head off.........just as they do Carr every week...............he didn't look so Manning like. That's the point!

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:47 PM
Great but is the call his fault?No. Did he do what he could after the call?Yes
My goodness....if you have to go this far....I'm done with you. LOL...

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 03:48 PM
Ummmm....look at what I said again, "my words".

My point is that when pressure is put on both QBs, they perform no different.

During the season Manning doesn't have the same pressure issues as does Carr. But....it's in the post-season for some reason, and against the Chargers this season, week16.....that when Manning had guys coming to rip his head off.........just as they do Carr every week...............he didn't look so Manning like. That's the point!

So basically we should look at every Hall of fame QB and see how they did when the team failed....Fouts, everyone and then take those specific games and say Carr is no different?Even though in the games when he did have time and he did have a chance to win he didn't get us there and still had the same stats and made the same mistakes?:ok:

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 03:49 PM
My goodness....if you have to go this far....I'm done with you. LOL...

What?Your point is that he didn't give his team a chance to win. Wrong.

Keep avoiding all the issues and keep attacking. It really is a great way to make a point.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:50 PM
So we are comparing Manning's peformance against playoff teams, in the playoffs, to Carr in the reagular season. Seems like a fair comparision to me.

No....we are comparing how one "great QB" versus a "poor-excuse of a QB" does when they are being pressured.

Manning has lost games in the regular season to the Patriots, Chargers, Jaguars and other teams. The thing is that he stinks when teams come at him. How does Carr fare when teams come at him, imposing pressure on him with very limited time to make throws? He stinks! Same as Manning.

HJam72
01-17-2006, 03:50 PM
I can address his failure to improve easily: he's had no protection for 4 years.

How do you make a chain stronger? You fix the weakest link. I can promise you that our weakest link is somewhere in that line. We can't improve this team as much by replacing Carr or DD as we could be fixing the line, or at least the weakest parts of it, anymore than we could improve the team by replacing D-Rob with a young Deion Sanders. You have to fix what's wrong, not improve what is already adequate or better. If you think David Carr is this team's weakest link, you are stuck on the one player fixes all train of thought and this is not basketball.

Too many people will always blame the QB when a team is bad, just like they will blame the President when the economy is bad (like Congress and circumstances don't have anything to do with it). Not talking about Bush or anyone in particular here, just making a point.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:51 PM
What?Your point is that he didn't give his team a chance to win. Wrong.

Keep avoiding all the issues and keep attacking. It really is a great way to make a point.

That's not my point. My point is the one I've been repeating far too many times. You keep bobbing and weaving it. That's the problem here. Not worth my time. Peace out!

The Dream
01-17-2006, 03:51 PM
I don't think Carr is our weakest link, but he's certainly not our strongest.

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2006, 03:53 PM
"How can you call 290 yards, a TD a horrible game even when he was getting pounded?" - houstonfrog

------------------------------

Because Manning normaly gets about four TDs a game and racks up nearly 500 yards of passing per game. This season was a little under his usual performance, and the last four games were just awful.

Going 13-0 was the worst thing that could have happened to this team. They hadn;t played a meaningful game in over a month, and it got the best of them. Throw in the Dungy tragedy (when he's ALREADY a subdued coaching personality to begin with) and you just had the makings for this sort of game.

That whole Colts team Sunday looked exactly like our team did all season long: Frustrated, harassed, and outcoached.

Dude is right: If Manning had an entire season of what he produced this past Sunday, there would have been a firestorm of activity in the Colts front office (about week 4) to fire coaches, assistants, offensive linemen, the water boy, the mascot, the liquored up kicker, anybody they could have thrown overboard to stop the bleeding.

But it happens to our team and it's all David's fault.

Just goes to show that you do not want your CB's getting stabbed the night before by their wife. Just goes to show that an All-Pro kicker ain't automatic. Just goes to show that this game is and always has been about the W. If they had won would we be having this discussion? Not at all. Some how, some way Manning seems to win a lot more games than Carr. Better coaching, better skill players or a better defense all are contributing variables, but 15 wins in four years does not get you a ticket to a free ride like so many of this board want to give Fresno's favorite son.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:53 PM
I can address his failure to improve easily: he's had no protection for 4 years.

How do you make a chain stronger? You fix the weakest link. I can promise you that our weakest link is somewhere in that line. We can't improve this team as much by replacing Carr or DD as we could be fixing the line, or at least the weakest parts of it, anymore than we could improve the team by replacing D-Rob with a young Deion Sanders. You have to fix what's wrong, not improve what is already adequate or better. If you think David Carr is this team's weakest link, you are stuck on the one player fixes all train of thought and this is not basketball.

For the record....I don't think Carr is the problem. I'm really not sure he is the problem since we haven't given him a competent O-line to be able to determine that. There's no question however that our O-line is a HUGE problem.

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2006, 03:54 PM
No....we are comparing how one "great QB" versus a "poor-excuse of a QB" does when they are being pressured.

Manning has lost games in the regular season to the Patriots, Chargers, Jaguars and other teams. The thing is that he stinks when teams come at him. How does Carr fare when teams come at him, imposing pressure on him with very limited time to make throws? He stinks! Same as Manning.

Then please explain to me how Tony Banks wins 3 out of 4 games under the same conditions when you remove one variable, the QB?

The Preacher
01-17-2006, 03:55 PM
Because Manning's line almost always does it's job and those 4 games are when they faced their toughest challenges and failed. It's really not hard to understand. The fact is that on those rare occasions that Manning's line fails, HE SUCKS, just like every other QB. When Carr gets protection, which is very rare, he does very well. Big surprise.

Right on jam it's pretty simple. No blocking=offensive quagmire. What is this argument all about anyway? Oh yeah draft linemen, maybe the first day, maybe even the first round if you want a real good one. Until Carr has time no one will know if he can ever be great.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 03:57 PM
So 4 games in his career vs, 4 full years for Carr?3 of those games against the eventual SB winner. .If my memory serves me correctly.......in the 2003 season when the Pats came here to Houston 2/3s down the season......the Texans with Carr at the helm took the Pats into overtime and the Pats just barely won with a field goal by Viniaterri.

Carr gave the Pats a lot harder time than Manning did that year in the post-season, the eventual Super Bowl winner. LMFAO!!!:redtowel:

Hey....you bobbed and weaved this one too. :boxing: :woot2

HJam72
01-17-2006, 03:59 PM
Then please explain to me how Tony Banks wins 3 out of 4 games under the same conditions when you remove one variable, the QB?

When and against who? Not denying it, just need more details.

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2006, 04:12 PM
When and against who? Not denying it, just need more details.

I stand corrected, typing error, the Texans won 3 out of 5 starts that Banks started:
Beat Carolina 14-10, eventual NFC Champ that year
Lost @ Cincinnati 27-34, who finished 8-8 in Lewis' first year.
Won @ Buffalo, 12-10
Lost to the Patriots 23-20, eventual Super Bowl Champ
Beat Atlanta 17-13, Banks was injured in the 3rd quarter to my recollection and Dom Davis took over with Carr at the helm.

HJam72
01-17-2006, 04:16 PM
All 3 wins were low scoring affairs. It looks like the defense came through to me and I wouldn't be surprised if DD had a lot to do with the offense. Granted, Carr isn't known for high scoring games either.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 04:20 PM
Hey....you bobbed and weaved this one too. :boxing: :woot2

You are losing it!!I have not bobbed and weaved. I have watched you avoid every conceivable stat and fact out there to taunt because you have a Carr crush. So we almost beat the SB team in the regular season. Do you think we were one of the games they circled on their calender? lol. We still LOST. How can a regular season game against the Texans be compared to an AFC playoff game?Seriously, do you watch football?Why can't you answer the Tony Banks question, the questions that have been presented by HOF QBs when critiquing him, etc. You sat there and went off on a tangent about how the Steelers gave him the game and he did nothing with it and then avoided the point completely that he got them into FG range and the KICKER missed it.

Lets just take the most simple of your premises. That when under pressure both Carr and Manning act just alike. AGAIN, why doesn't every team just blitz Indy then?When they have, why does Manning still win?If you cop out and say his team is better then you are missing the point and avoiding the reality. An O-line can't make a bad QB a SB winner. The variables include leadership, pocket presence, awareness of the field, reading defenses, getting rid of the ball, looking off receivers...etc. Not once have you been able to show where Carr possesses any of these things compared to a Manning. Thus your argument is null and void because you can't just play pretend and make an average QB a superstar because you pull out 4-5 random games in a career. If that was the case we could compare players all day long. Timmy Smith had 204 yards in the SB so he must be as good as Emmitt Smith who also won a SB MVP. See the problem there?

LOL..thanks Kaiser, now we know that Carr didn't even complete or play in the above NE game in the regular season..no wonder we almost won..lol

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2006, 04:21 PM
All 3 wins were low scoring affairs. It looks like the defense came through to me and I wouldn't be surprised if DD had a lot to do with the offense.

I am not surpised if DD did as well, just surprised how a journeyman can put up the most amount of W's in a 5 game stretch with the worst coaching, GM, no TE, no 2nd WR and a Fangio led defense. This I would argue was the most competitive our franchise has been in our existence. Is it possible that Carr is that good and everyone recognized that they would have to play harder to subsidize the loss? That would be a plausible arguement, but one I would not push.

HJam72
01-17-2006, 04:31 PM
Every team doesn't just blitz Indy because they'd fail. His line is good. In our second year, we had the best pass protection we've ever had. That was before we screwed up our blocking schemes, before Wand played LT, and before Pendry took over the offense.

MorKnolle
01-17-2006, 04:32 PM
Every team doesn't just blitz Indy because they'd fail. His line is good. In our second year, we had the best pass protection we've ever had. That was before we screwed up our blocking schemes.

Zone blocking has nothing to do with pass protection, in fact all pass protection is basically zone blocking. What screwed it up is playing people like Victor Riley and Todd Wade as our OTs and then implementing some nancy offensive system that is extra predictable and never stretches the field so opposing defenses can load people in the box and blitz with a ton of guys or just provide ample pressure with 3-4 man rushes.

Fiddy
01-17-2006, 04:36 PM
Difference between Carr and Manning: Manning get's sacked because of poor o-line play, Carr gets sacked because he has 0 pocket presence.

Also, Manning doesnt lock onto his RB and number 1 WR.

Also, Manning can read a defense.

I could go one, but this list would get out of hand...

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 04:36 PM
Every team doesn't just blitz Indy because they'd fail. His line is good. In our second year, we had the best pass protection we've ever had. That was before we screwed up our blocking schemes, before Wand played LT, and before Pendry took over the offense.

Hey I am all in agreement that the O-line blows but as the Banks reference shows, other guys still got the job done in some cases. I just think that there are so many more variables, listed above, that go into playing QB and you can't really just stick guys in different places and say they are the same. Some guys handle situations differently and learn on a different scale. It is in no way all his fault but he does have to shoulder some of the criticism and blame.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 04:37 PM
Difference between Carr and Manning: Manning get's sacked because of poor o-line play, Carr gets sacked because he has 0 pocket presence.

Also, Manning doesnt lock onto his RB and number 1 WR.

Also, Manning can read a defense.

I could go one, but this list would get out of hand...

Believe me I tried these too!!lol.

ComstockLode
01-17-2006, 04:40 PM
Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.


Is this a joke?

How about Manning does this vs great playoff teams or superbowl champions.

Carr vs Browns....

And didnt manning still almost throw for 300 yards yesterday? Isnt that like Carr's best game this season?

MorKnolle
01-17-2006, 04:45 PM
Difference between Carr and Manning: Manning get's sacked because of poor o-line play, Carr gets sacked because he has 0 pocket presence.

Also, Manning doesnt lock onto his RB and number 1 WR.

Also, Manning can read a defense.

I could go one, but this list would get out of hand...

Manning got sacked less than 20 times a year the last couple seasons, David's averaged over 50. Some of those are David's fault but you can't tell me he accounts for 30 of those and that Peyton would only get sacked 20 times a year here.

80% of the time Carr has no pocket to stand in anyways.

Carr's only real receiving option is Andre, we ran max protect a lot this year so it was either Andre Johnson, butterfingers Bradford, or check down to Domanick Davis as his only passing options, so what would you do in that situation? Manning has Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, and Dallas Clark as options, then Edge.

Manning is better at reading defenses than Carr, there's not any way to argue that.

I'm not saying David Carr is as good of a QB as Manning, but he also does not have anywhere near the talent around him to do so either and I'd say a good portion of his deficiencies are due to poor coaching and lack of surrounding talent, not just him.

El Tejano
01-17-2006, 04:45 PM
The difference between Carr and Manning is Manning gets all the benefits on replays and Carr gets a turnover off replays *cough* Cincinnati game* cough*

run-david-run
01-17-2006, 04:46 PM
I did and again it made no sense and went in 10 directions. You have no answer for statistics or any facts I brought out. Same as you accused others of doing above. You can't make the argument at all. You are now personally attacking me instead of the facts!!You have not made one relevant point. To be an NFL QB, you need more than just an O-line. You need to study, you need to work with your teammates. You need to make it to the playoffs. I saw Steve Young get his head handed to him against the Cowboys in an NFC title game and he lost 3 times before winning the SB. So did that make him a loser that was the same as Carr?No, it meant that his team had a bad day. He still was a winner who could lead and get his team to a point where they could, AS A TEAM, compete. Carr has neither shown the leadership, the extra work or any of these qualities, even in defeat.
You must be the only person misunderstanding his argument, because from where I am sitting, it is very valid. He first says that Manning is a great Qb in the regular season when he has protection. Heck, look at the first time the Colts and Steelers played, Manning had time, Colts won. Same with when they played the Pats this year, unlike the previous seasons, Manning had time, Colts score 40. However, when defenses are good enough to pressure him in the playoffs, the same situation Carr is in during the entire season, he puts up very mediocre numbers. Keep in mind he should have been picked, meaning the TD would never have happened and he would have a lot fewer yards. The Colts were also playing from behind the entire game, meaning he had to throw the ball a lot.

IN conclusion, protection is key, when Carr has it, he has shown he can be very, very good, when he does not, he looks very, very bad. Its not that hard to figure it out...but of course, O-linemen dont make SportsCenter's top plays...

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 04:46 PM
Difference between Carr and Manning: Manning get's sacked because of poor o-line play, Carr gets sacked because he has 0 pocket presence.

Also, Manning doesnt lock onto his RB and number 1 WR.

Also, Manning can read a defense.

I could go one, but this list would get out of hand...
Overall, maybe.

But....when guys are in his face or coming his way....he's no different.

Fact is....locking on his RB or number one WR was his set back when going defenses that knocked him out of the playoffs.

He can read defenses.....yet it's strange how he was knocked out by a defense even though he read it. What good does it do you to read it, yet not know how to counter it? Hell....I can read a defense too....but I ssure as hell couldn't counter it.

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2006, 04:47 PM
Manning got sacked less than 20 times a year the last couple seasons, David's averaged over 50. Some of those are David's fault but you can't tell me he accounts for 30 of those and that Peyton would only get sacked 20 times a year here.

80% of the time Carr has no pocket to stand in anyways.

Carr's only real receiving option is Andre, we ran max protect a lot this year so it was either Andre Johnson, butterfingers Bradford, or check down to Domanick Davis as his only passing options, so what would you do in that situation? Manning has Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, and Dallas Clark as options, then Edge.

Manning is better at reading defenses than Carr, there's not any way to argue that.

I'm not saying David Carr is as good of a QB as Manning, but he also does not have anywhere near the talent around him to do so either and I'd say a good portion of his deficiencies are due to poor coaching and lack of surrounding talent, not just him.

Can you please take your well thought logic and unemotional takes back to the draft forum. :)

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 04:48 PM
You must be the only person misunderstanding his argument, because from where I am sitting, it is very valid. He first says that Manning is a great Qb in the regular season when he has protection. Heck, look at the first time the Colts and Steelers played, Manning had time, Colts won. Same with when they played the Pats this year, unlike the previous seasons, Manning had time, Colts score 40. However, when defenses are good enough to pressure him in the playoffs, the same situation Carr is in during the entire season, he puts up very mediocre numbers. Keep in mind he should have been picked, meaning the TD would never have happened and he would have a lot fewer yards. The Colts were also playing from behind the entire game, meaning he had to throw the ball a lot.

IN conclusion, protection is key, when Carr has it, he has shown he can be very, very good, when he does not, he looks very, very bad. Its not that hard to figure it out...but of course, O-linemen dont make SportsCenter's top plays...

Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding.......WE....HAVE A WINNER!!

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 04:50 PM
Is this a joke?

How about Manning does this vs great playoff teams or superbowl champions.

Carr vs Browns....

And didnt manning still almost throw for 300 yards yesterday? Isnt that like Carr's best game this season?

Did Carr have protection?

Fiddy
01-17-2006, 04:50 PM
80% of the time Carr has no pocket to stand in anyways.
You have that in reverse. 80% of the time Carr has a pocket but doesnt step up but instead of stepping up in the pocket, he goes outside the pocket to get sacked because his O-lineman have no idea where he is on the field. At the first sign of pressure, instead of stepping up, he scrambles outside the pocket and once you get outside the pocket, you put yourself in trouble.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 04:52 PM
Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding.......WE....HAVE A WINNER!!

This was completely answered and ignored, per usual, by me on Page 3

"Lets just take the most simple of your premises. That when under pressure both Carr and Manning act just alike. AGAIN, why doesn't every team just blitz Indy then?When they have, why does Manning still win?If you cop out and say his team is better then you are missing the point and avoiding the reality. An O-line can't make a bad QB a SB winner. The variables include leadership, pocket presence, awareness of the field, reading defenses, getting rid of the ball, looking off receivers...etc. Not once have you been able to show where Carr possesses any of these things compared to a Manning. Thus your argument is null and void because you can't just play pretend and make an average QB a superstar because you pull out 4-5 random games in a career. If that was the case we could compare players all day long. Timmy Smith had 204 yards in the SB so he must be as good as Emmitt Smith who also won a SB MVP. See the problem there?"

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 04:52 PM
Manning got sacked less than 20 times a year the last couple seasons, David's averaged over 50. Some of those are David's fault but you can't tell me he accounts for 30 of those and that Peyton would only get sacked 20 times a year here.

80% of the time Carr has no pocket to stand in anyways.

Carr's only real receiving option is Andre, we ran max protect a lot this year so it was either Andre Johnson, butterfingers Bradford, or check down to Domanick Davis as his only passing options, so what would you do in that situation? Manning has Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, and Dallas Clark as options, then Edge.

Manning is better at reading defenses than Carr, there's not any way to argue that.

I'm not saying David Carr is as good of a QB as Manning, but he also does not have anywhere near the talent around him to do so either and I'd say a good portion of his deficiencies are due to poor coaching and lack of surrounding talent, not just him.
Attaboy!!

MorKnolle
01-17-2006, 04:56 PM
You have that in reverse. 80% of the time Carr has a pocket but doesnt step up but instead of stepping up in the pocket, he goes outside the pocket to get sacked because his O-lineman have no idea where he is on the field. At the first sign of pressure, instead of stepping up, he scrambles outside the pocket and once you get outside the pocket, you put yourself in trouble.

There are definitely times that Carr abandons the pocket prematurely, but most of the time Riley and/or Wade were quickly letting people get right around them or else McKinney or Milford Brown were letting people blitz right up the middle while they stared at each other dumbfounded. Either way, when Carr does have somewhat of a pocket, it's usually only maybe 5-8 yards wide and quickly being pushed in on him while other QBs have much bigger pockets that are sustained for a longer period of time. Carr's confidence in his line had clearly been shaken this year, but we also had a ridiculous offense that we were running in which, at best, 1 guy had a chance of getting open for a decent play, and half the time AJ was used as a diversion and it was Bradford that needed to make a play, and as I'm sure you saw throughout the year Bradford seldom caught anything. It was a combination of some bad decisions on Carr's part, some horrible OLine play, poor coaching for everyone on the offense, horrible playcalling, and lack of a sufficient #2 passing threat. Hopefully the majority of those will be fixed this offseason so Carr can once again have a productive year.

JohnGalt
01-17-2006, 04:56 PM
Every team doesn't just blitz Indy because they'd fail. His line is good. In our second year, we had the best pass protection we've ever had. That was before we screwed up our blocking schemes, before Wand played LT, and before Pendry took over the offense.


I'm not entirely convinced that Wand and Pitts were the biggest problem concerning sacks. We're all familiar with the way a passing pocket is shaped. If the overpaid players on the right collapse, Carr will naturally bail out to his left, right into the DE's (Read: Freeney) pass rush.

And the reason Carr still hasn't thrown the ball is the unimaginative play that's called doesn't give him a open receiver. They let Carr call the plays in that half against Arizona and he lit up the scoreboard. Can you imagine what would happen if he had a good OC giving him direction.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 04:57 PM
This was completely answered and ignored, per usual, by me on Page 3

"Lets just take the most simple of your premises. That when under pressure both Carr and Manning act just alike. AGAIN, why doesn't every team just blitz Indy then?When they have, why does Manning still win?If you cop out and say his team is better then you are missing the point and avoiding the reality. An O-line can't make a bad QB a SB winner. The variables include leadership, pocket presence, awareness of the field, reading defenses, getting rid of the ball, looking off receivers...etc. Not once have you been able to show where Carr possesses any of these things compared to a Manning. Thus your argument is null and void because you can't just play pretend and make an average QB a superstar because you pull out 4-5 random games in a career. If that was the case we could compare players all day long. Timmy Smith had 204 yards in the SB so he must be as good as Emmitt Smith who also won a SB MVP. See the problem there?"

And where has the bold come into play positively for Manning and the Colts in the post season???

Damnit....how do you think they feel about Manning after his lackluster performances against D's that actually do their job in putting pressure on him. I mean....damn, they made "No-Fumble Bettis" fumble the ball, ran it back at a good spot, not the best....but a good spot and Manning still can't take these guys to the next level. How do you think the owner and manager feel after giving him all the weapons and a very good O-line, hell....even a defense this year, keeping the game in winnable position for 'em and he still buckles and gets spooked when guys come after him?

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 05:01 PM
Can you imagine what would happen if he had a good OC giving him direction.

Actually coached him, actually gave him confidence in that the offense would hold it down for him for at least 3, tops 4 seconds, if he was given a tight end, shows him audibles outside of running it down the middle, the list goes on.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 05:04 PM
And where did the bold come into play positively for Manning and the Colts???

Damnit....how do you think they feel about Manning after his lackluster performances against D's that actually do their job in putting pressure on him. I mean....damn, they made "No-Fumble Bettis" fumble the ball, ran it back at a good spot, not the best....but a good spot and Manning still can't take these guys to the next level. How do you think the owner and manager feel after giving him all the weapons and a very good O-line, hell....even a defense this year, keeping the game in winnable position for 'em and he still buckles and gets spooked when guys come after him?

I'm still lost. You really make no sense at all. You have reeled off 5 games out of a guys career and now you are saying that he has never handled pressure well. Why don't you write this post to ESPN or any pro scout and see what they think of this logic. Also, they get the ball back and time is running out. They only have so many time outs. He gets them down to the 26 yard line and sets up a kick for allegedly the most accurate 4th quarter kicker in history. Can you explain how this was not giving his team a chance to win and why the kicker is his fault? So the defemse you talked about..you mean the one that gave up 21 pts and two 6 minute drives in the 4th quarter?So you are putting the WHOLE game on HIS shoulder but when it comes to CARR it is ALL of the other guys fault. I get it. Makes tons of sense. Stop going in circles bro, you really made no sense here. Also can you still explain how Banks won 3 of 5 with the same line and actually was the leader in that NE game you tried throwing in my face?will you ignore this again?

HJam72
01-17-2006, 05:06 PM
I'm not entirely convinced that Wand and Pitts were the biggest problem concerning sacks. We're all familiar with the way a passing pocket is shaped. If the overpaid players on the right collapse, Carr will naturally bail out to his left, right into the DE's (Read: Freeney) pass rush.

And the reason Carr still hasn't thrown the ball is the unimaginative play that's called doesn't give him a open receiver. They let Carr call the plays in that half against Arizona and he lit up the scoreboard. Can you imagine what would happen if he had a good OC giving him direction.

All good points and a lot of Wand's problem was probably McKinney getting blown up at center also. I still think Wand was part of the problem though. He was not ready to play LT at the time and I'd rather not see him there until he proves (if ever) that he is a stud RT. Actually, I'd rather just get D. Ferguson and not worry about Wand.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 05:08 PM
I'm still lost. You really make no sense at all. You have reeled off 5 games out of a guys career and now you are saying that he has never handled pressure well. Why don't you write this post to ESPN or any pro scout and see what they think of this logic. Also, they get the ball back and time is running out. They only have so many time outs. He gets them down to the 26 yard line and sets up a kick for the allegedly the most accurate 4th quarter kicker in history. Can you explain how this was not giving his team a chance to win and why the kicker is his fault? So the defemse you talked about..you mean the one that gave up 21 pts and two 6 minute drives in the 4th quarter?So you are puttin gthe whole game on his shoulder but when it comes to CARR it is ALL of the other guys fault. I get it. Makes tons of sense. Stop going in circles bro, you really made no sense here. Also can you still explain how Banks won 3 of 5 with the same line and actually was the leader in that NE game you tried throwing in my face?will you ignore this again?

LOL....and the final gift of a drive was the only time he stepped on the field right? He didn't get them there.........whoever induced the fumble along with Harper did or did you forget?

About the New England game...lol....even worse....a backup put up a better battle than the record setting Manning. Not scoring a single TD on their third meeting. You'd think Manning would have their number by then but nope...he got worse. This year, sure Manning finally got a win against them.....but when the Pats were being beat like a step child by the league because of injuries. I know....it's a team game and he beat them and that's the point. Thing is....this still doesn't do any good cause he wasn't pressured, tested per se to react with success when pressure was on him.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 05:18 PM
And another thing.....you said something about me posting this on ESPN.com.... Well...I'll have you know that they have been tearing up Manning, criticizing his game and that he can go 16-0 and it still won't be anything out of this world. Major yawnage! Until he proves himself in the playoffs, that he can counter when the pressure is on......then he'll get the praise the media's been dying to give him. Can you win the big game Peyton? Can you do something when the heat is on? Can you react when pressure is put on you? Can you come out victorious finally when your tested without your precious protection? You have unbelievable weapons............you put up records........it's there.....do what you're supposed to do!

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 05:23 PM
LOL....and the final gift of a drive was the only time he stepped on the field right? He didn't get them there.........whoever induced the fumble along with Harper did or did you forget?

About the New England game...lol....even worse....a backup put up a better battle than the record setting Manning. Not scoring a single TD on their third meeting. You'd think Manning would have their number by then but nope...he got worse. This year, sure Manning finally got a win against them.....but when the Pats were being beat like a step child by the league because of injuries. I know....it's a team game and he beat them and that's the point. Thing is....this still doesn't do any good cause he wasn't pressured, tested per se to react with success when pressure was on him.

Harper didn't get them to the 26. He got them to their own 43 or something. Manning did the rest..his job after being hit all day and gave his team a chance to win. You said he failed them. How did he fail here? This goes back two pages. Since when has Carr taken his beating, still thrown for 290 and then gotten them the chance to win?Not every game goes as scripted. AGAIN, do you want to pull out all the games where Young, Aikman, Favre, etc played bad in the playoffs?They are there. I watched them. That doesn't make their playoff struggles the same as a guys regular season.

No, it proves nothing because your comparison was CARR v. MANNING. It shows that with the same line a backup can go 3-2 and still beat almost beat a good team. Regular season v. Texans is not the same as playoff time vs. a dynasty. Favre had to do it against Dallas and Young. Elway got punked a few times himself before getting it. It doesn't make them any less. Your comparison was that because they perform the same when they got sacked alot, then Carr can be that guy without taking into account any variables that it takes to be a QB.

JohnGalt
01-17-2006, 05:25 PM
All good points and a lot of Wand's problem was probably McKinney getting blown up at center also. I still think Wand was part of the problem though. He was not ready to play LT at the time and I'd rather not see him there until he proves (if ever) that he is a stud RT. Actually, I'd rather just get D. Ferguson and not worry about Wand.

I think Wand is the answer at RT, (I'm going to get flamed for this) maybe even at LT. I'm still purplexed how that fat slob Riley got the starts this year. Wand struggled, but not like that. Hopefully he'll still be bitter about this year's benching and take it out on the DE's next year.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 05:32 PM
No, it proves nothing because your comparison was CARR v. MANNING. It shows that with the same line a backup can go 3-2 and still beat almost beat a good team. Regular season v. Texans is not the same as playoff time vs. a dynasty. Favre had to do it against Dallas and Young. Elway got punked a few times himself before getting it. It doesn't make them less.

Are the Chargers a dynasty? They didn't make the playoffs yet they beat the Colts and harrassed Manning with the Colts having no injuries. He had his O-line, his fabulous WRs, his TEs, his defense, his RB. How did he read the defense and counter it successfully?

You don't get it man. When teams that did a good job of homing in on him, applying pressure........Manning buckles.

The question is.........when the line does what it can, can he do what's left to beat the D with his head and arm? It's without a question NO! An emphatic NO! His WRs were there....all his team mates. It's like...."C'mon Peyton....you da man.....we're here for ya....show us that no matter what they throw at us Peyton....you're gonna at least win the game....at least that cause you should like embarass these guys. Everything isn't all gravy for you right now....they're applying some pressure.....show us that you can have success in it. C'mon Peyton...I make the catches for you. C'mon...we've supplied you with players....can you do the rest when push comes to shove."

Again...he's let people down. And the Chargers aren't a dynasty....but they did apply pressure. What was the result?

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 05:45 PM
Are the Chargers a dynasty? They didn't make the playoffs yet they beat the Colts and harrassed Manning with the Colts having no injuries. He had his O-line, his fabulous WRs, his TEs, his defense, his RB. How did he read the defense and counter it successfully?

You don't get it man. When teams that did a good job of homing in on him, applying pressure........Manning buckles.

The question is.........when the line does what it can, can he do what's left to beat the D with his head and arm? It's without a question NO! An emphatic NO! His WRs were there....all his team mates. It's like...."C'mon Peyton....you da man.....we're here for ya....show us that no matter what they throw at us Peyton....you're gonna at least win the game....at least that cause you should like embarass these guys. Everything isn't all gravy for you right now....they're applying some pressure.....show us that you can have success in it. C'mon Peyton...I make the catches for you. C'mon...we've supplied you with players....can you do the rest when push comes to shove."

Again...he's let people down. And the Chargers aren't a dynasty....but they did apply pressure. What was the result?

I really don't get your logic. Seriously, it is frustrating. No they aren't a dynasty. So now you are saying that the Colts aren't allowed to lose against anyone and if they do it is because Manning can't handle the heat and that if a team has a good game plan then anyone can put pressure on Manning and they will lose?I have refuted this and so has the Colts record but when I do that you switch and say that teams can't blitz all the time and put pressure because the line is much better in the regular season. So which is it?The QB, the line, the team, playoffs. regular season. You are all over the board. So the defense, the kicker, the receivers that dropped balls, etc played no part and they were just waiting for him?What about the O-cordinator who only called Edges number 13 times?Was that his fault? What about the 681 yards, eight TDs, no interceptions in the two playoff games before the Pats game the lost?Why didn't he fold then? I mean Favre, Aikman, Young, Marino, Fouts all had bad playoff games and conference championship games. Does that make all ogf them chokers and losers at some point?You are grasping at straws. You went from comparing two guys who allegedly reacted the same when pressured in the pocket and you haev only used 5 games, 4 with the teams season on the the line for one guy and then used a regular season full of losses for another. It doesn't work no matter how hard you try.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 05:51 PM
He couldn't adjust when the time came down to him to show his real skills. He's buckled time and time again. When the pressure was on.....he threw and INT. The game was on his shoulders.....it couldn't be on anyone elses....he's the face of that team. He was graced by who knows what and was lucky to get a TD. Then....by the grace of who knows what again....he can't win it for them. Nope....he had to rely on Vandejagt when the team was relying on HIM. Once again....this is no different than all his playoff campaigns. Same story every year...

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 05:53 PM
I really don't get your logic. Seriously, it is frustrating. No they aren't a dynasty.

So there you have it. All that's going on here is that you don't want to accept or even the slightest consider what I'm saying.

And my logic is really that incomprehensible? You really don't get it one bit? You just don't agree with it, but it's no way-no how incomprehensible....c'mon now...

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 06:04 PM
I really don't get your logic. Seriously, it is frustrating. No they aren't a dynasty. So now you are saying that the Colts aren't allowed to lose against anyone and if they do it is because Manning can't handle the heat and that if a team has a good game plan then anyone can put pressure on Manning and they will lose?

It's too consistent and apparent that he can't handle, can't counter, can't function when he's tried strongly regardless of it being a dynasty, playoffs, whatever else you'd like to throw in... If pressure is put on him, having no injuries on his team, even to the point of having home-field advantage, his cryptonite is pressure. When harrassed....the best he can do is be AVERAGE...

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2006, 06:07 PM
He couldn't adjust when the time came down to him to show his real skills. He's buckled time and time again. When the pressure was on.....he threw and INT. The game was on his shoulders.....it couldn't be on anyone elses....he's the face of that team. He was graced by who knows what and was lucky to get a TD. Then....by the grace of who knows what again....he can't win it for them. Nope....he had to rely on Vandejagt when the team was relying on HIM. Once again....this is no different than all his playoff campaigns. Same story every year...

You have sold me, I do not want Carr or Manning. :rolleyes:

bigTEXan8
01-17-2006, 06:12 PM
Manning is miles ahead of Carr. Manning was also brought up under good coaches, good surrounding cast, and a good owner. Also, Manning has a video room in is own house. Carr has the capability of being a good QB, but I doubt Carr will ever get to Manning's plateau in the QB aspect. And I am a big Carr fan.:superman: I just think that happy face is cool.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 06:25 PM
Manning is miles ahead of Carr. Manning was also brought up under good coaches, good surrounding cast, and a good owner. Also, Manning has a video room in is own house. Carr has the capability of being a good QB, but I doubt Carr will ever get to Manning's plateau in the QB aspect. And I am a big Carr fan.:superman: I just think that happy face is cool.

Right!I'm tired because it is hard to comprehend my new batches of Manning posts that don't address anything.

bigTEXan8
01-17-2006, 06:29 PM
Right!I'm tired because it is hard to comprehend my new batches of Manning posts that don't address anything.

I'm confused. Are you agreeing with me, or are you just angry in general. I'm cool with either.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 06:39 PM
It's too consistent and apparent that he can't handle, can't counter, can't function when he's tried strongly regardless of it being a dynasty, playoffs, whatever else you'd like to throw in... If pressure is put on him, having no injuries on his team, even to the point of having home-field advantage, his cryptonite is pressure. When harrassed....the best he can do is be AVERAGE...

WOW!Three posts to get nothing out. Impressed. Well obviously he got something out under pressure because more stats were stated above that you ignored, just like ignoring that the other big time QBs all went though the EXACT same thing and that the QB has to have other variables..all that you swept under the rug. By the way, they weren't 100% in the San Diego game if you want to check. Corey Simon and Cato Jones had injuried and had to sit out on D. What about games like the JACKSONVILLE game this year. Right before the SD game. Sacked 3 times and pressured but still had 324 yards a 2 TDs. Surprised he didn't fold under your assumptions since it was for the division. Heck, the SD game he had 336 yards, TD and 2 picks. That would be a career Carr day. I also wanted to ask how he was supposed to do better in the last minute of the Pitt game with no time or timeouts? Is there magic dust for this..lol. You give it to the kicker. You can keep the charade up but all in all the intangibles add up to a guy who is still one of the best in the league vs someone who is overpaid and average. Since Marino never won a thing and didn't perform in some big games we will make Carr like him too.:)

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 06:40 PM
I'm confused. Are you agreeing with me, or are you just angry in general. I'm cool with either.

Sorry completely agreeing. Not angry at anyone. Frustrated at the circular reasoning going on in here though.

BuffSoldier
01-17-2006, 07:10 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?statsId=5887&year=2004
This is the link that will possibly end this stupid thread.

Look at the stats from the first 9 weeks of the 2004 season(the first a games). This is when the Texans offensive line was actually blocking worth a plug nickel, and before teams were consistently double covering Andre Johnson.

Carr had 2162 yards and second in the AFC in passing yards only to Manning. He was on pace to have over 4300 yards that year. He had 9 TD's even though he had no receiving TE and no prominent #2 receiver. He was averaging 270.25 yards per game with a 64% completion rating and an average 94.2 passer rating. He did all this and de was still sacked 20 times.


Now I am not saying that Carr is better than Manning, but I am saying that when Carr has at least average protection and some targets, he can more than get the job done.

So lets see... Carr with no protection sucks. Mannign with no protection sucks. Yes, I said he sucks and to you Houston Frog, Manning has one of the best offensive lines in the league,IMO the most underatted RB in the league,the best WR threesome in the league, a great TE, and the freedom to basically be his own offensive coordinator, and he still has less than stellar games when he is under pressure.

When Carr has protection, he plays extremely well, check out the stats, even without a good #2 receiver, starting TE, and an offensive line that couldnt hold water. When Manning has protection he plays extraordinary.

I see the simularities, and if you disagree, at this point you are just being stubborn,or trying to make the Texans message board a spelling bee.

Fiddy
01-17-2006, 07:29 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?statsId=5887&year=2004
This is the link that will possibly end this stupid thread.

Look at the stats from the first 9 weeks of the 2004 season(the first a games). This is when the Texans offensive line was actually blocking worth a plug nickel, and before teams were consistently double covering Andre Johnson.

Carr had 2162 yards and second in the AFC in passing yards only to Manning. He was on pace to have over 4300 yards that year. He had 9 TD's even though he had no receiving TE and no prominent #2 receiver. He was averaging 270.25 yards per game with a 64% completion rating and an average 94.2 passer rating. He did all this and de was still sacked 20 times. Love how you left out the 5 INTs. A 9:5 ratio isnt something to write home about.

Defensive Passing Rankings 2004:
SD: 31st
DET: 20nd
KC: 32nd
OAK: 30th
MIN: 29th
TEN: 26th
JAC: 16th
DEN: 6th

He had a below average game (245, 0 TDs, 0 INTs, 53% completion) against the only good passing defense (Denver) and an average one against the average Jacksonville's 'D' (276, 1 TD, 0 INTs, 75% completion). However, he did tear up the bottom 4 passing defenses in the league. Congrats to David Carr. He can pass against total garbage defenses, must give him credit.

SBTexans08
01-17-2006, 07:36 PM
Sorry completely agreeing. Not angry at anyone. Frustrated at the circular reasoning going on in here though.
You missed the point beginning in your first post. You're frustrated at you simply being argumentative.

BuffSoldier
01-17-2006, 07:38 PM
Love how you left out the 5 INTs. A 9:5 ratio isnt something to write home about.

He had a below average game (245, 0 TDs, 0 INTs, 53% completion) against the only good passing defense and an average one against the average Jacksonville (276, 1 TD, 0 INTs, 75% completion) 'D.' However, he did tear up the bottom 4 passing defenses in the league. Congrats to David Carr. He can pass against total garbage defenses, must give him credit.

Okay he had 5 INTs. Which is about a 2:1 TD to INT ratio. Id take it when you have the NFLs worst offenive line and no #2 receiver or TE. Oh and a 2:1 TD to INT ratio is just about what Manning had his first 5 years in the NFL. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=1428Even though he had an at least decent o-line, Marvin Harrison, Edge all but his rookie year, and Marcus Pollard who,for a while was a very good receiving TE.

Fiddy
01-17-2006, 07:45 PM
Okay he had 5 INTs. Which is about a 2:1 TD to INT ratio. Id take it when you have the NFLs worst offenive line and no #2 receiver or TE. Oh and a 2:1 TD to INT ratio is just about what Manning had his first 5 years in the NFL. Too bad he never allowed a number 2 to develop. If Carr didnt lock onto AJ and Davis, Gaff could have developed into a nice number 2, IMO. I found it funny when AJ was out this year, Gaff stepped up when he was the first read and had some good games for our offenses standard. AJ comes back, Gaff rarely sees the bal anymore. It's hard to show that you are good when your RB gets more looks in the passing game than yourself.

Carr and Billy Miller had a nice on-the-field relationship (not saying Miller was a legit TE threat), but once again, hard to prove you have a TE threat when you never throw him the ball.

One of the biggest knocks on Carr since he came out: He locks onto receivers. It doesnt matter if he did have a number 2 or a TE, if the player is not the first read or the dump down option, he isnt going to get many looks.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 07:58 PM
Okay he had 5 INTs. Which is about a 2:1 TD to INT ratio. Id take it when you have the NFLs worst offenive line and no #2 receiver or TE. Oh and a 2:1 TD to INT ratio is just about what Manning had his first 5 years in the NFL. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=1428Even though he had an at least decent o-line, Marvin Harrison, Edge all but his rookie year, and Marcus Pollard who,for a while was a very good receiving TE.

BuffSoldier I appreciate your stats but one part of one season does not change my mind. You guys want to give Carr the world and try and compare him to Manning. Sorry but 5 games in a guys career isn't going to change the fact that he has had many others where he was just as pressured(JVille and succeeded). That was the argument wasn't it. What about the games where Banks did well under a bad line?You could sit here all day and say Carr did well when the perfect situations but I am looking at progress individually. That is what this thread was about. Did his bad days mirror a Manning bad day. He regressed this year. Even if the line was not at its best does that mean he can't grow when it comes to pocket awareness and holding the ball, etc. Why would ESPN spend half a game concentrating on him locking in on one receiver?You mentioned people being hard headed but every time I have been attacked no one has answered any questions I asked or asked what is the difference between Manning and other past QBs who went through the same. Or why he still has thrown for yardage in those bad games and almost pulled them out despite the day. Being a QB is alot more than stats or games that compare to others. Take for example, why would one of your lineman say you are not a leader?He has things to work on. Fiddy laid out the same things. If they were so similar then every team in the league would be swooping in to try and grab the next Manning from us. The funny part is, Carr used to be my favorite guy until he started regressing as a leader and player. I wish people concentrated more on saving guys that worked alot harder and we were paying less. We were 2-14 and everyone had a part in that.

SB, why do you attack the messenger instead of responding to any stats I gave you?

Fiddy
01-17-2006, 08:12 PM
Regressed as a leader and a player? Example? As a leader: It's hard to tell you, it's just how you read his body language on sidelines and stuff and you never hear about him giving those "this is it" speeches on the field. He has talked about how the QB is the leader on the field by default, but he has never shown himself to be one.

As a player: Did you see the season? He did improve on those hitch routes, I'll give him that.

ComstockLode
01-17-2006, 08:22 PM
Did Carr have protection?

Well the claim is peyton cant play if he has no protection, and carr has the same ability as him. Well it looked like peyton still threw for 300.

Wolf
01-17-2006, 08:25 PM
Carr is not Manning ...Manning can read defenses
Manning is not Carr.. he hasn't taken the pounding and has time to throw and has good weapons around him (D. Clark anyone Mathis anyone...etc.etc???)

With that said and now for the obvious.. I don't know any QB that can perform effectively with people in their face over and over... but that is up to the coaching staff to get plays (maybe draws or screens) to stop that or at least slow the defense down)

S.D. gave the blueprint this season on how to beat the Colts ... I expect every Defensive coordinater in the NFL to impliment that blueprint or something like that next season (Steelers used that S.D. gameplan and it worked again)

Reminds me of the Rams and their "Greatest Show on Turf" .. and teams started punching them in the mouth and look a Warner now.. never the same after taking the pounding over and over.... That is one thing I will say Carr is better than.. He has taken the pounding and still has some confidence. If only the new coaching staff will have confidence in him (Capers didn't) and vice versa in Carr with confidence in the coaching staff (whole team needs confidence in the coaching staff)

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 08:31 PM
Regressed as a leader and a player? Example?

Well as a leader he has lost the team. Even in other years he wasn't attacking teammates on the field and yelling at guys. You have McKinney just a week ago saying he is not their leader. Again, you have reports earlier in the year that he refuses to stay after practice and watch extra film and his answer was family is more important. Respectable and a good guy but the pros is about sacrifice when you are making 8 mil.

Player wise I already mentioned his ability to lock in. Even if Andre is the man, you got Gafney in the 2nd round and have Armstrong. Are they great?No, but in order for an offense to work you have to progress through the reads. The O-line isn't great but if something isn't there, dump it unstead of going into the fetal position.

Comstock, I agree with you. That goes exactly to the point.

Wolf
01-17-2006, 08:34 PM
Well as a leader he has lost the team. Even in other years he wasn't attacking teammates on the field and yelling at guys. You have McKinney just a week agon saying he is not their leader. Again, you have reports earlier in the year that he refuses to stay after practice and watch extra film and his answer was family is more important. Respectable and a good guy but the pros is about sacrifice when you are making 8 mil.

Player wise I already mentioned his ability to lock in. Even if Andre is the man, you got Gafney in the 2nd round and have Armstrong. Are they great?No, but in order for an offense to work you have to progress through the reads. The O-line isn't great but if something isn't there, dump it unstead of going into the fetal positio.

McKinney also said after the 2004 season that our line wasn't bad.


not sure on the reports, I remember Carr telling AJ that he could stay at his house (when AJ was drafted) and they could play catch.

2+ seconds have a tendancy to "lock in" basically it is look at 1st option then DD in the flat.. he doesn't have a dependable #2 WR or TE

with that said.. Carr doesn't read defenses too well. (seriously)

Erratic Assassin
01-17-2006, 08:39 PM
A bad offensive line can make any QB look horrible. A good offensive line can make a marginal QB look good.

A good offensive line is a precondition for success. Carr has never really had a chance to grow. The only thing he has learned in 4 years is how to run for his life.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 08:45 PM
McKinney also said after the 2004 season that our line wasn't bad.


not sure on the reports, I remember Carr telling AJ that he could stay at his house (when AJ was drafted) and they could play catch.

2+ seconds have a tendancy to "lock in" basically it is look at 1st option then DD in the flat.. he doesn't have a dependable #2 WR or TE

with that said.. Carr doesn't read defenses too well. (seriously)

Agree with your last point too. To clarify, there would be nothing better if Carr improved and made me eat crow. I didn't get into this thread to just plain hate. Despite the debate I think Manning can be an a-hole on the field and as a teammate. What annoys me though is that you can't just take a 2-14 team and say if we stick these guys into a certain situation then things would be different. There are alot of talented guys who can't cut it in the league. Just like I don't think you can let Carr sit with a free pass after 4 years because the line is horrible. The whole team can improve, including him. I really don't get how people can give him a free pass and make exuses left and right for the guy when you could sit and say that coaching and many other excuses could have contributed to every player being better. Some guys can hack it and others can't. We will hopefully find out under a new coach.

Hardcore Texan
01-17-2006, 08:53 PM
Note to self: Avoid arguments with Houston Frog and SBTexans08.

Sorry guys, I had to do it.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 09:04 PM
Note to self: Avoid arguments with Houston Frog and SBTexans08.

Sorry guys, I had to do it.

Considering this is the first one I have gotten into like this I wouldn't be afraid. LOL. I'm harmless.:spy: I even like SB:)

Tulip
01-17-2006, 09:12 PM
Is this a joke?

How about Manning does this vs great playoff teams or superbowl champions.

Carr vs Browns....

And didnt manning still almost throw for 300 yards yesterday? Isnt that like Carr's best game this season?

Yes. He threw for 293 against St. Louis and 295 against Jacksonville. He only had one other game over 200 yards -219 at Jacksonville. Also, he had 2 games under 100 yards (not including San Fran, of course) - 70 yards against Buffalo and 48 against Indianapolis.

Wolf
01-17-2006, 09:16 PM
Yes. He threw for 293 against St. Louis and 295 against Jacksonville. He only had one other game over 200 yards -219 at Jacksonville. Also, he had 2 games under 100 yards (not including San Fran, of course) - 70 yards against Buffalo and 48 against Indianapolis.

That is a Capers style offense at it finest.. run, run, and then try to bail the offense out with a pass ( joking here because we did pass on 1st down). but overall.. Capers likes running the football.(nothing wrong with that)

seriously Capers has the mindset IMO .. and I can't remember what coach (bum phillips maybe?) that said when you pass 2 out of 3 things are bad.

disaacks3
01-17-2006, 09:56 PM
A bad offensive line can make any QB look horrible. A good offensive line can make a marginal QB look good.


A good offensive line is a precondition for success. Carr has never really had a chance to grow. The only thing he has learned in 4 years is how to run for his life.

..see above...

Let me preface this by saying that Peyton Manning, if he can get his playoff act together, may go down as the best QB in NFL history. There isn't any QB (Brady included) who I think understands the game better.

I'd never project Carr to become the next Peyton Manning, but he doesn't need to be to take us to the playoffs. Give the man an EFFECTIVE O-Line (which he was promised in the LAST off-season) and then tell me how good / bad he can really be.

IMHO - You've gotta be awfully short-sighted to not see the resemblance under similar circumstances between their most dismal performances. Yes, Carr has a much longer list from which to choose, he also has a FAR worse line that's helped provide more examples. Every BAD choice that Manning made on Sunday wasn't the fault of his O-line, some were "on him" when he simply got too jumpy / made a bad read / locked on, etc. If the best QB in the NFL gets all jumpy when these games happen once a season, it's unfair to say Carr doesn't have potential when he has these games happen ALL the time.

Wolf
01-17-2006, 10:01 PM
..see above...



I'd never project Carr to become the next Peyton Manning, but he doesn't need to be to take us to the playoffs. Give the man an EFFECTIVE O-Line (which he was promised in the LAST off-season) and then tell me how good / bad he can really be.



To play good cop/bad cop

I agree after watch Rex Grossman last weekend.. Carr when he thows looks exceptionally better than Grossman..
Yet, what does it matter if reading defenses are your weakness (Carr so far)

Texan Gal 312
01-17-2006, 11:03 PM
One of the biggest knocks on Carr since he came out: He locks onto receivers. It doesnt matter if he did have a number 2 or a TE, if the player is not the first read or the dump down option, he isnt going to get many looks.

I think that is the way Pendry taught him. Mainly because he has to be rid of the ball in a Nano second.

I watch other quarterbacks drop back and step up in the pocket and throw the ball and not get hit. I am pretty sure I can count on two hands the number of times in a four year career that Carr has done that.

Hold the ball too long .. If the receiver doesn't read the defense correctly and cut a pattern off the qb looks like he holds the ball too long. In Carr's case and nano second plus .1.

I scanned through most of this thread but a couple of things jumped out. An offensive lineman claimed Carr was not a leader (can you give me a link ?) I think somebody did some very liberal interpertation here.
Receivers were upset because Carr doesn't stay after practice (link ?)
Carr doesn't watch film. (give me a break)

Atlanta game (won by banks ?) I don't remember all the details but I do remember Carr coming in and making a very huge run. After the game people were commenting on his leadership and courage.
New England game -- I don't remember Tony Banks being the quarterback in that game -(could be wrong).

Basically the whole argument has been two different points. Yes PM is better quarterback than DC. And yes PM looked extremely confused when pressured. And EVERY quarterback will.

Napa Auto Parts
01-17-2006, 11:04 PM
about 100,000 yards 1000 touchdowns playoff expirience oh and one of this was a deserving 1st overall pick thats all i have of the top of my head.

Fiddy
01-17-2006, 11:12 PM
I think that is the way Pendry taught him. Mainly because he has to be rid of the ball in a Nano second. He locked onto AJ and Davis when Palmer was the OC so Pendry has nothing to do with that.

Banks started the Atlanta game and then broke his hand at the end of the first half. Banks played the entire Patriots game.

infantrycak
01-17-2006, 11:33 PM
..see above...

Let me preface this by saying that Peyton Manning, if he can get his playoff act together, may go down as the best QB in NFL history. There isn't any QB (Brady included) who I think understands the game better.

I'd never project Carr to become the next Peyton Manning, but he doesn't need to be to take us to the playoffs. Give the man an EFFECTIVE O-Line (which he was promised in the LAST off-season) and then tell me how good / bad he can really be.

IMHO - You've gotta be awfully short-sighted to not see the resemblance under similar circumstances between their most dismal performances. Yes, Carr has a much longer list from which to choose, he also has a FAR worse line that's helped provide more examples. Every BAD choice that Manning made on Sunday wasn't the fault of his O-line, some were "on him" when he simply got too jumpy / made a bad read / locked on, etc. If the best QB in the NFL gets all jumpy when these games happen once a season, it's unfair to say Carr doesn't have potential when he has these games happen ALL the time.

Thanks--that saved me quite a bit of typing.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 11:39 PM
Texan Gal, it was McKinney who said he wasn't their leader and it was on 610 last week. I know others on here heard it. I'll try and find the link. Same with the film and practice comments. It was a full discussion after the 5th game or so on the radio show. I'll see what I can dig up or if it is audio archive.

Kaiser Toro
01-17-2006, 11:41 PM
..see above...

Let me preface this by saying that Peyton Manning, if he can get his playoff act together, may go down as the best QB in NFL history. There isn't any QB (Brady included) who I think understands the game better.

I'd never project Carr to become the next Peyton Manning, but he doesn't need to be to take us to the playoffs. Give the man an EFFECTIVE O-Line (which he was promised in the LAST off-season) and then tell me how good / bad he can really be.

IMHO - You've gotta be awfully short-sighted to not see the resemblance under similar circumstances between their most dismal performances. Yes, Carr has a much longer list from which to choose, he also has a FAR worse line that's helped provide more examples. Every BAD choice that Manning made on Sunday wasn't the fault of his O-line, some were "on him" when he simply got too jumpy / made a bad read / locked on, etc. If the best QB in the NFL gets all jumpy when these games happen once a season, it's unfair to say Carr doesn't have potential when he has these games happen ALL the time.

That just maybe the best post I have read. Bravo friggin Bravo!

infantrycak
01-17-2006, 11:47 PM
He locked onto AJ and Davis when Palmer was the OC so Pendry has nothing to do with that.

And the point of the thread, although overstated, was Manning (the pretty much undisputed best QB in the game right now) locks onto people and misses the "smart" read when consistantly pressured as well. There were two blatant examples of locking on in his last two pass attempts in the game.

Banks started the Atlanta game and then broke his hand at the end of the first half.

The idea that Banks should get any credit for the Atlanta game is pretty laughable. He exited with the Texans down 7 to 3 under his leadership. When Carr walked onto the field to replace him Reliant was electric. The Texans then opened the 2nd half with two drives for TD's--the 1st almost solely on the back of a 36 yd run by DC on 3rd and 5. Obvious leadership has been too rare for Carr, but he had it that day.

I sure am looking forward to next year when everyone who is so sure that every player has shown their full potential under the now fired regime is surprised by the talent on the team.

infantrycak
01-17-2006, 11:52 PM
Texan Gal, it was McKinney who said he wasn't their leader and it was on 610 last week. I know others on here heard it.

Can anyone without an obvious agenda please confirm or deny this?

Fiddy
01-17-2006, 11:59 PM
And the point of the thread, although overstated, was Manning (the pretty much undisputed best QB in the game right now) locks onto people and misses the "smart" read when consistantly pressured as well. There were two blatant examples of locking on in his last two pass attempts in the game. He locked onto Reggie Wayne twice at the end, dont remember the last one, but the 2nd to last was the deep bomb to the endzone. Yes, I guess Manning locked onto Wayne, but he was already in FG range and had the most accurate FG kicker in NFL history on his team. He took a shot at the end zone to end the game, and if it wasnt for a FABULOUS play by the CB, we are not talking about this. I dont remember any safety's near Wayne or in the picture so I'm guessing they had come down to blitz or whatever so there was one-on-one coverage on Wayne. Who was Manning suppose to look off??? There are times to lock onto WRs, the thing is Carr does it all the time.

The idea that Banks should get any credit for the Atlanta game is pretty laughable. He exited with the Texans down 7 to 3 under his leadership. When Carr walked onto the field to replace him Reliant was electric. The Texans then opened the 2nd half with two drives for TD's--the 1st almost solely on the back of a 36 yd run by DC on 3rd and 5. Obvious leadership has been too rare for Carr, but he had it that day. I wasnt giving credit to Banks that day, Texan Gal 312 didnt remember what games Banks started...

Can anyone without an obvious agenda please confirm or deny this? I have an agenda but I do remember hearing McKinney on 610 say something to the effect that there was no real leader on the offense. Don't remember the exact words. It was posted on this board a few weeks back so I bet if I look hard enough I could find something, but I'm too lazy.

wags
01-18-2006, 12:05 AM
I have an agenda but I do remember hearing McKinney on 610 say something to the effect that there was no real leader on the offense. Don't remember the exact words. It was posted on this board a few weeks back so I bet if I look hard enough I could find something, but I'm too lazy.

Does Steve not have any leadership skills? If Carr isn't a leader then why doesn't McKinney take charge as a veteran?

Fiddy
01-18-2006, 12:08 AM
Does Steve not have any leadership skills? If Carr isn't a leader then why doesn't McKinney take charge as a veteran? Ask Jamie Sharper that, too. He had that "there needs to be a leader on this team" speech. This team has never really had a true leader.

infantrycak
01-18-2006, 12:13 AM
He locked onto Reggie Wayne twice at the end, dont remember the last one, but the 2nd to last was the deep bomb to the endzone. There are times to lock onto WRs, the thing is Carr does it all the time.

I don't think it is that black and white for either Manning or Carr. On the next to last pass attempt, Manning watched Wayne all the way down field and tossed it into tight coverage. No big deal, and I wouldn't overly fault him but it is fair to observe that he failed to see his TE, wide open 8 yds down field on the right--easy catch and run for at least a 12 yd play making the kick 34 yds instead of 46. On the last pass attempt, Manning was so fixated he almost tossed up a pick when Edge was uncovered in the flat which if the primary read isn't open is once again a field goal shortening better option. JMO but the book is still out on Carr and locking on--he has been bum rushed his whole career and has been running a pee-wee offense where a guy who thinks Victor Riley can start actually beats the former guy out of a job. Yeah, I am trusting anything they thought. We'll see.

I have an agenda but I do remember hearing McKinney on 610 say something to the effect that there was no real leader on the offense. Don't remember the exact words. It was posted on this board a few weeks back so I bet if I look hard enough I could find something, but I'm too lazy.

I won't claim to have heard every minute of McKinney on 610, but I have heard most and I need a little more than it happened either last week or a few weeks ago and was reported here in words to the effect of. May have happened--call me skeptical.

HJam72
01-18-2006, 09:33 AM
Personally, I still think Manning is a great QB, but he's human just like all of them. He is better than Carr (most likely), but his failure to win against Pittsburgh shows that even the best will fail when their pass protection is blown up. David Carr is a good QB (no chance to prove he's great or not--just good) with a bad offense. Vince Young may very well be better, but I hate to see all this Carr ripping when he's put up with what amounts to crap for 4 years. The biggest joke of all, IMO, was just take 1.2 seconds to find an OPEN receiver and throw it because we can't get people in here to protect you. Now, one of the top-rated guys in the next draft is a QB FROM UT and suddenly Carr is the whole problem.

I know that SOME of you have been against keeping Carr for a while now (Kaiser Toro), but I also know that we've got more UT first fans around here these days than HT first fans.

HoustonFrog
01-18-2006, 09:39 AM
I won't claim to have heard every minute of McKinney on 610, but I have heard most and I need a little more than it happened either last week or a few weeks ago and was reported here in words to the effect of. May have happened--call me skeptical.

One, stop saying I have an agenda. You are full of it. Just because someone isn't kissing the QBs rear doesn't mean they have an agenda. Maybe I can just look outside of all of the excuses and form my own opinion. If you ever read my stuff I am NOT a VY drafter either so step back with your assumptions. I DID hear the interview in its entirety and if you listen as much as you just say you would have heard somethign about it considering that it was all they talked about that day. I'll write 610 and find the information.

HJam72
01-18-2006, 09:42 AM
I think it's hard for a QB to lead a team that seriously lacks talent (especially pass protection type talent) and has a coaching staff that really borders on clueless, at least as a whole. I've seen Carr act like a leader, but this year--how do you lead this crap? If he continues to yell at his linemen, it'll just start to look and feel like he's picking on losers who can't help it. If he had talented linemen, he could yell when they screw up and they could take it upon themselves to get mean and handle somebody, but who are they kidding? You can't lead and cheer on a guy with a knife to kill that dude over there with an oozie. It just doesn't work.

Oh, and McKinney talks to much anyway. He probably got tired of Carr yelling at him when he kept falling backwards into him last year.

HJam72
01-18-2006, 09:45 AM
One, stop saying I have an agenda. You are full of it. Just because someone isn't kissing the QBs rear doesn't mean they have an agenda. Maybe I can just look outside of all of the excuses and form my own opinion. If you ever read my stuff I am NOT a VY drafter either so step back with your assumptions. I DID hear the interview in its entirety and if you listen as much as you just say you would have heard somethign about it considering that it was all they talked about that day. I'll write 610 and find the information.

How can you NOT be a VY drafter when you don't want Carr to stay? Are you wanting Leinhart or something? Not saying you have an agenda. You just don't like Carr as a QB.

SBTexans08
01-18-2006, 09:48 AM
That is a Capers style offense at it finest.. run, run, and then try to bail the offense out with a pass ( joking here because we did pass on 1st down). but overall.. Capers likes running the football.(nothing wrong with that)

seriously Capers has the mindset IMO .. and I can't remember what coach (bum phillips maybe?) that said when you pass 2 out of 3 things are bad.

There's nothing wrong with that style of play, if you have the personnel to do so. Pittsburgh, Carolina, Jacksonville, Denver....teams like this have an identity of running the ball more so than pass. With this type of offense.....you need a defense to compliment as well, of which the teams mentioned did this past season. The Texans were neither...:brickwall

HJam72
01-18-2006, 09:52 AM
I don't think that pass vs. run is this team's problem. It's the sacks and dropped passes that are the problem.

HoustonFrog
01-18-2006, 09:55 AM
How can you NOT be a VY drafter when you don't want Carr to stay? Are you wanting Leinhart or something?

No, my thinking all along is to take Bush and then O-line and TE with the next early picks and see what you can do in FA. You get a stable vet backup for Carr and give him this one year to show what he has. I think VY will be a stud and he is a leader but I just haven't see a QB with the running skills like him succeed YET. My problem with the Carr deal is that I just get tired of people bending over backwards for the guy around here. It is a TEAM game. I used to be a fan of his. I have no reason to make up interviews about him but since I am a sports radio junkie and listen to it at work too, these subjects come up. My problem started last year at the end of the season when it seemed he was losing the team. He started pouting more this year and I was tired of post game interviews with him laughing and smiling and acting like it was no big deal. To me that fosters an acceptance of losing. It seemed to ME that he spent more time working with HEB then he did with the team. But at 2-14 there really can't be excuses for just one guy. He needs to be responsible for his own work and his regression this year. Same with the line. Same with the LBs. Same with the D-line. It is about accountability and Carr, with the money he makes, needs to be put under the microscope as much as the rest of the team. IMHO comparing him to Manning makes no sense. Different teams, different mentailty, different skills. If you did that fantasy land experiment you could put Ryan Leaf in a Colt situation and say he would have done better with that talent. Until this is turned around I am looking at things in a more critical sense. Maybe if people had done that before we wouldn't be paying big money for some guys while letting a McCree play his tail off for a SB contender.

SBTexans08
01-18-2006, 10:00 AM
I don't think that pass vs. run is this team's problem. It's the sacks and dropped passes that are the problem.

Ehhh....I agree....that's the team's problem as well, but surely don't discount the fact that they tried to employ a scheme that was just uncharacteristic of this team. They didn't have the talent to do what they wanted to do.

SBTexans08
01-18-2006, 10:24 AM
No, my thinking all along is to take Bush and then O-line and TE with the next early picks and see what you can do in FA

Finally....we agree on something!! :redtowel:


Seriously though....I still can't believe you guys are still making the conviction that I made this thread to compare Manning/Carr and their respective careers and milestones or lack of, for the matter. The point of this thread, **sighs**, was that doesn't Sunday's game make you wonder, "What good does it do to have a QB of Manning's calibur, weapons as you'd probably never see all in one offense as the Colts boast, along with an O-line that's highly regarded as being one of the best if when the house is being brought at you...you can't use their blitz against them?"

When teams blitz, there's a hole in their defense that can be exploited. Why didn't Manning exploit, or better yet.....why, after facing the same types of defenses (3-4 defense with an array of different blitzing), did he not win at least one of these matches? I seriously see this guy look like a deer caught on head lights........it's like he forgets he's Peyton Manning, that he's that guy that sets up records, watches the most film probably of any QB in history, no QB knows the game like him.... If what the Colts were going through was happening here exactly as it is in Indy......I'd be getting frustrated. I, personally, don't want just personal milestones set.......I want a friggin championship for my city!! I'd feel like hey....this guy has everything a QB could want and more......now he needs to come through.

All in all, Carr does nothing when the pressure is on him........same with Manning. We see this happening all season for Carr because of the coaching staff, O-line, bad play chosen, busted play, or what have you...Carr doesn't perform well, with good reason................not even Manning can, as we've seen when PM is pressured, predominantly against 3-4 defenses, and....on top of that, 3-4 defenses in the post-season when the "game" is cranked up to full steam.

I'm in no way saying Carr is anything like Manning outside of this one category. I don't think Carr's a bust.....but I do think that more remains to be seen. I'll repeat, but under similar conditions, when defenders are in his face or when blitzing is coming in and "he knows how to read defenses", why is it that Manning hasn't been able to get that bug off his back, counter these defenses, exploit where they're susceptible, and make those defenses back off? I wouldn't personally go as far as saying "he knows how to read defenses", he's good at it.....yes, I'd agree, but until he counters those defenses effectively, taking advantage of the weapons he has on his offense........until he does this......he's no better than Carr, IN THIS RESPECT!!!!! And I agree....Carr sucks at this as well. This in no way praises Carr....for the record.

michaelm
01-18-2006, 10:24 AM
Great argument....

:rolleyes:

Great argument....

:rolleyes:

HoustonFrog
01-18-2006, 10:41 AM
Finally....we agree on something!! :redtowel:

Ok, we are done then. Fun times.:)

Vinny
01-18-2006, 11:09 AM
This thread is funny. People dog Young because in his "rotten game", his offense puts up 40 points...so he can't be as good as Carr. Manning throws for 300 yards while in his "rotten game" and Carr is the same qb as Manning since Carr did it one time too. Carr does both of these in a blue moon....but they are his "great games" while they are "rotten games" from these guys....ok, right.

jerek
01-18-2006, 11:20 AM
And the point of the thread, although overstated, was Manning (the pretty much undisputed best QB in the game right now) locks onto people and misses the "smart" read when consistantly pressured as well. There were two blatant examples of locking on in his last two pass attempts in the game.



The idea that Banks should get any credit for the Atlanta game is pretty laughable. He exited with the Texans down 7 to 3 under his leadership. When Carr walked onto the field to replace him Reliant was electric. The Texans then opened the 2nd half with two drives for TD's--the 1st almost solely on the back of a 36 yd run by DC on 3rd and 5. Obvious leadership has been too rare for Carr, but he had it that day.

I sure am looking forward to next year when everyone who is so sure that every player has shown their full potential under the now fired regime is surprised by the talent on the team.

Amen to every last word in this post.

SBTexans08
01-18-2006, 11:29 AM
This thread is funny. People dog Young because in his "rotten game", his offense puts up 40 points...so he can't be as good as Carr. Manning throws for 300 yards while in his "rotten game" and Carr is the same qb as Manning since Carr did it one time too. Carr does both of these in a blue moon....but they are his "great games" while they are "rotten games" from these guys....ok, right.
With all due respect, I think you should use the quote button cause I never implied the above and neither did most in this thread...

Vinny
01-18-2006, 11:33 AM
With all due respect, I think you should use the quote button cause I never implied the above and neither did most in this thread...I can make a comment if I please...and I don't need to quote anyone to do it.

infantrycak
01-18-2006, 12:07 PM
One, stop saying I have an agenda. You are full of it. Just because someone isn't kissing the QBs rear doesn't mean they have an agenda. Maybe I can just look outside of all of the excuses and form my own opinion. If you ever read my stuff I am NOT a VY drafter either so step back with your assumptions. I DID hear the interview in its entirety and if you listen as much as you just say you would have heard somethign about it considering that it was all they talked about that day. I'll write 610 and find the information.

The only conversation I have heard from McKinney coming even close to what you are talking about is one where he was asked about leadership and his response was he didn't think an offense needs a fiery/obvious leader (And let's see, McKinney has been on OL's for 4 years each under...Manning and Carr.) and that defenses play much more from emotion and need leadership more. I am not sure I agree with that, but in any event that was a McKinney statement. If that is what is now being reported as McKinney says Carr isn't a leader then I'd say the reporter has an agenda. I have also listened to McKinney enough to know a direct statement like you are asserting would be incredibly out of character.

As for assumptions, you need to take a step back--I never said anything about VY. The agenda I was speaking of was an anti-Carr agenda. Just another example of someone at either extreme of an argument (yes both pro and anti Carr people are guilty) who isn't happy with the facts as they are needing to justify their position by tweaking them beyond reality.

Texan Gal 312
01-18-2006, 05:23 PM
.

All in all, Carr does nothing when the pressure is on him........same with Manning. .


Agree with the post, but one more time will point out that teams rushed 4 against Carr with 7 blockers and often times somebody came completely free. Thus my hope that it wasn't physical failures of the offensive line but the lack of ability to work as a unit (bad coaching philosophy). Simple math tells you that this leaves 7 people covering 3 people. I guess that could make you look like you can't read a defense.
Most of the pressure on Manning came from multiple blitzers.

HoustonFrog
01-18-2006, 05:39 PM
The only conversation I have heard from McKinney coming even close to what you are talking about is one where he was asked about leadership and his response was he didn't think an offense needs a fiery/obvious leader (And let's see, McKinney has been on OL's for 4 years each under...Manning and Carr.) and that defenses play much more from emotion and need leadership more. I am not sure I agree with that, but in any event that was a McKinney statement. If that is what is now being reported as McKinney says Carr isn't a leader then I'd say the reporter has an agenda. I have also listened to McKinney enough to know a direct statement like you are asserting would be incredibly out of character.

As for assumptions, you need to take a step back--I never said anything about VY. The agenda I was speaking of was an anti-Carr agenda. Just another example of someone at either extreme of an argument (yes both pro and anti Carr people are guilty) who isn't happy with the facts as they are needing to justify their position by tweaking them beyond reality.

It isn't an Anti-Carr agenda. It is an anti-Carr excuse agenda that has become an epidemic around here. There must be 1000 excuses and counting and it has gotten to the point where he seems to be the only person "clean" according to some. I posted my position on this a page back and will stand by it. It isn't too harsh. I'm not trying to twist beyond reality but am trying to take the information that I hear and trying to draw a conclusion from that. I know many don't like our local beat writers but I found it quite ironic that the local "insider"(McClain) of sort had this in his column today. Seems to me that there are many other people that are closer to the team than we are that have come to my same conclusion

"Kubiak is a former quarterback who coaches quarterbacks. He knows that analyzing a quarterback takes so much more than simply watching tapes of games and practices.

Kubiak has to find out what Carr is made of — if Carr is willing to pay the price off the field as he is on the field. Can Carr be consumed with becoming one of the NFL's best — a process that requires 24/7 dedication during the season and something close to it in the offseason.

Kubiak has to decide if Carr can become a dynamic team leader — a trait he hasn't developed in his first four seasons."

SBTexans08
01-18-2006, 05:41 PM
Agree with the post, but one more time will point out that teams rushed 4 against Carr with 7 blockers and often times somebody came completely free. Thus my hope that it wasn't physical failures of the offensive line but the lack of ability to work as a unit (bad coaching philosophy). Simple math tells you that this leaves 7 people covering 3 people. I guess that could make you look like you can't read a defense.
Most of the pressure on Manning came from multiple blitzers.
I agree...lol. And those blitzes leave holes in the D making it easier to make a strike and hit an offense target, albeit the heavy pressure coming on......http://www.xgpgaming.com/forums/images/smilies/yikes.gif

I'd add more to it but I'll refrain. Good post though. :ok:

run-david-run
01-18-2006, 06:50 PM
I am not surpised if DD did as well, just surprised how a journeyman can put up the most amount of W's in a 5 game stretch with the worst coaching, GM, no TE, no 2nd WR and a Fangio led defense. This I would argue was the most competitive our franchise has been in our existence. Is it possible that Carr is that good and everyone recognized that they would have to play harder to subsidize the loss? That would be a plausible arguement, but one I would not push.
Keep in mind this was Carr's second year...he had just come off the 72 sack season, hell Peyton Manning was something like 3-13 in his first season...

run-david-run
01-18-2006, 06:58 PM
This was completely answered and ignored, per usual, by me on Page 3

"Lets just take the most simple of your premises. That when under pressure both Carr and Manning act just alike. AGAIN, why doesn't every team just blitz Indy then?When they have, why does Manning still win?If you cop out and say his team is better then you are missing the point and avoiding the reality. An O-line can't make a bad QB a SB winner. The variables include leadership, pocket presence, awareness of the field, reading defenses, getting rid of the ball, looking off receivers...etc. Not once have you been able to show where Carr possesses any of these things compared to a Manning. Thus your argument is null and void because you can't just play pretend and make an average QB a superstar because you pull out 4-5 random games in a career. If that was the case we could compare players all day long. Timmy Smith had 204 yards in the SB so he must be as good as Emmitt Smith who also won a SB MVP. See the problem there?"
Hmmm, maybe its something to do with the incredible supporting cast Manning has.... he has a great line and has the ability, if he sees blitz, to audible, unlike Carr. Plus, when was the last time you saw Marvin Harrison run the wrong route? When was the last time Reggie Wayne consitently droped passes?

Shaunny66
01-18-2006, 07:02 PM
I how there different....They have different hair color and they both have different last names....:homer:

Double Barrel
01-18-2006, 07:45 PM
At first glance, this question (Manning vs. Carr) seems ludicrious.

But there are some valid points in this thread. When defenses can penetrate the Colts' o-line, Manning does seem to fall much quicker than you would think.

He is still an awesome QB, and light years ahead of Carr right now. But I do wonder how Carr would fair behind Indy's offense, and, by the same token, how Manning would have faired behind the Texans offense the past four years.

Good food for thought...carry on. :howdy:

ArlingtonTexan
01-18-2006, 08:39 PM
At first glance, this question (Manning vs. Carr) seems ludicrious.

But there are some valid points in this thread. When defenses can penetrate the Colts' o-line, Manning does seem to fall much quicker than you would think.

He is still an awesome QB, and light years ahead of Carr right now. But I do wonder how Carr would fair behind Indy's offense, and, by the same token, how Manning would have faired behind the Texans offense the past four years.

Good food for thought...carry on. :howdy:

The basic premise that ANY QB needs at least average to good protection to be successful is sound. Where many of the arguments break down is the assumption that a better QB would NOT perform differently with similar surroundings. The idea that Manning or (insert favorite QB) would have, as some of the posters imply, led this team to a 2-14 record with poor offense production is silly. The argument nearly becomes that all QBs are the same and the surrounding casts are all that matter.

real
01-18-2006, 08:41 PM
The basic premise that ANY QB needs at least average to good protection to be successful is sound. Where many of the arguments break down is the assumption that a better QB would NOT perform differently with similar surroundings. The idea that Manning or (insert favorite QB) would have, as some of the posters imply, led this team to a 2-14 record with poor offense production is silly. The argument nearly becomes that all QBs are the same and the surrounding casts are all that matter.
exactly.......

Trap_Star
01-18-2006, 10:03 PM
Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.

Carr has yet to throw his o-line under the bus when protection breaks down, which is always:brickwall
compared to once in a blue moon w/ manning:twocents:

infantrycak
01-18-2006, 11:54 PM
It isn't an Anti-Carr agenda. It is an anti-Carr excuse agenda that has become an epidemic around here.

Glaringly absent is a denial that the discussion I described is what you were initially talking about. Pot, meet anti-Carr agenda.

HoustonFrog
01-19-2006, 09:58 AM
Glaringly absent is a denial that the discussion I described is what you were initially talking about. Pot, meet anti-Carr agenda.

That was not the discussion I heard. And from what you explained, it isn't like he "named" him as a leader either. Why was there a glaring omission there?Now would you please stop stalking me. Your opinion is no better than mine or anyone elses on here so stop acting like a know it all. I'm going off stories that I HEARD. Which is basically all we go off of through the media in print and on the air. I'll post it a third time but obviously someone else closer to the team shares the same opinion. Is it about time to wash David's car now?

"After he hires his assistants, Kubiak will have to spend a lot of time with Carr. For about a month, they'll spend more time with each other than they spend with their wives.

Kubiak is a former quarterback who coaches quarterbacks. He knows that analyzing a quarterback takes so much more than simply watching tapes of games and practices.

Kubiak has to find out what Carr is made of — if Carr is willing to pay the price off the field as he is on the field. Can Carr be consumed with becoming one of the NFL's best — a process that requires 24/7 dedication during the season and something close to it in the offseason.

Kubiak has to decide if Carr can become a dynamic team leader — a trait he hasn't developed in his first four seasons."

infantrycak
01-19-2006, 10:59 AM
That was not the discussion I heard. And from what you explained, it isn't like he "named" him as a leader either. Why was there a glaring omission there?Now would you please stop stalking me. Your opinion is no better than mine or anyone elses on here so stop acting like a know it all. I'm going off stories that I HEARD. Which is basically all we go off of through the media in print and on the air.

If you look back, I didn't start off denying your story--I asked for someone to confirm it. Funny that with all the regular 610 am listeners on here no one has come forward to confirm the direct statement by McKinney you are relating. You didn't even deny the McKinney discussion I heard was the real source until directly confronted on it.

I'll post it a third time but obviously someone else closer to the team shares the same opinion. Is it about time to wash David's car now?

I haven't responded to this because it is worthless to the issue--have whatever opinion you want about Carr and his leadership, but don't make up stuff to support it. Fine say McClain is questioning his work ethic and leadership--he is, but converting "the offense doesn't need a leader" into McKinney says Carr isn't a leader and posting it is misleading people.

Double Barrel
01-19-2006, 11:08 AM
The basic premise that ANY QB needs at least average to good protection to be successful is sound. Where many of the arguments break down is the assumption that a better QB would NOT perform differently with similar surroundings. The idea that Manning or (insert favorite QB) would have, as some of the posters imply, led this team to a 2-14 record with poor offense production is silly. The argument nearly becomes that all QBs are the same and the surrounding casts are all that matter.

Word. No doubt our record would be better than 2-14 if Manning was QB of the 2005 Texans. How much better is up for debate, but his ability to read defenses and adjust on the fly, much less his quick release and consistent pinpoint accuracy, would have won some of those closer games.

Most QBs, even the great ones, have games where the protection broke down and caused them to have some bad games. But I've got to consider the ability of the truly great QBs to elevate everyone's game around them. A good leader inspires his teammates to play better most of the time. This intangible is probably the biggest difference between Manning and Carr right now.

infantrycak
01-19-2006, 11:13 AM
The basic premise that ANY QB needs at least average to good protection to be successful is sound. Where many of the arguments break down is the assumption that a better QB would NOT perform differently with similar surroundings. The idea that Manning or (insert favorite QB) would have, as some of the posters imply, led this team to a 2-14 record with poor offense production is silly. The argument nearly becomes that all QBs are the same and the surrounding casts are all that matter.

For some reason many people want to make everything black and white as if Manning and Carr swapped either the records would remain exactly the same (only the surrounding cast matters) or they would bring their records with them to their new teams (only the QB matters). Of course neither would happen. Manning would have found a way to win more than 2 games here and Carr would have had much gaudier stats and better results (but not 13 wins) in Indy. Both the QB and the surrounding cast affect the the W/L column and each others' performance/stats.

Big B Texan Fan
01-19-2006, 11:19 AM
If you look back, I didn't start off denying your story--I asked for someone to confirm it. Funny that with all the regular 610 am listeners on here no one has come forward to confirm the direct statement by McKinney you are relating. You didn't even deny the McKinney discussion I heard was the real source until directly confronted on it.
He did say it. It went some thing like this (it was around week 10ish)
When asked about Carr and his leadershi or lack thereof
David is not the team leader (then after he realized what he had said, maybe the body language of John or Lance struck him to clarify) I don't need a leader, I need a guy who can convert 3rd downs or make the right throws. If we needed or wanted a leader on the field then we do not deserve to be professionals. So to answer the question no he isn't, he leads by example with his toughness and will to not give up.

That was para-phrased but it did happen. LS Pittman said that he isn't either on radio with rich and marc during season around the same time as the above mentioned. Go back and read my post a few pages back. Alot of us hear these things but don't think to write it down but those two things did happen on air. It may be on a 610 archive or something.

chuckm
01-19-2006, 11:22 AM
anyone having deja vu again today?

Big B Texan Fan
01-19-2006, 11:23 AM
anyone having deja vu again today?
I haven't slept since 1/4

infantrycak
01-19-2006, 11:32 AM
That was para-phrased but it did happen. LS Pittman said that he isn't either on radio with rich and marc during season around the same time as the above mentioned.

Y'all seem to have a different definition for paraphrasing. The testimonial was almost working until you added the Pittman bit. I heard that interview several times and Pittman did not affirmatively say Carr was not a leader.

Whatever--no point arguing about this. Y'all "heard" what you wanted.

HoustonFrog
01-19-2006, 11:32 AM
He did say it. It went some thing like this (it was around week 10ish)
When asked about Carr and his leadershi or lack thereof
David is not the team leader (then after he realized what he had said, maybe the body language of John or Lance struck him to clarify) I don't need a leader, I need a guy who can convert 3rd downs or make the right throws. If we needed or wanted a leader on the field then we do not deserve to be professionals. So to answer the question no he isn't, he leads by example with his toughness and will to not give up.

That was para-phrased but it did happen. LS Pittman said that he isn't either on radio with rich and marc during season around the same time as the above mentioned. Go back and read my post a few pages back. Alot of us hear these things but don't think to write it down but those two things did happen on air. It may be on a 610 archive or something.

I wrote 610 to clarify. The conversation you just said above is what I heard. I wrote Lance and John and as to what McKinney said and they said "He never said he was the leader and never said he wasn't." I'm not sure if that is a cop out or just the way they heard it. I heard it as above. Their reply seems to make it seem that the above statements could be taken in different contexts. I never heard anything regarding the Pittman thing.

As for the work after practice. The response I received was, "While David's work after practice has been questioned, I've never personally heard anything from any of his teammates that they have a problem with it. Maybe some coaches did though."

I'm not sure if that clarifies anything but I can at least say that I wasn't dreaming up these conversations as their answers attest to. I think one thing learned is that we all hear different things in the media and for the most part you can form your own conclusions off of them. Considering I always held Carr in high esteem until this year, I don't think I am twisting it to fit my agenda. I am just using the philosophy that where there is smoke there is fire and that when you hear things enough times you start to wonder how they got out there.

As to "I haven't responded to this because it is worthless to the issue--have whatever opinion you want about Carr and his leadership, but don't make up stuff to support it. Fine say McClain is questioning his work ethic and leadership--he is, but converting "the offense doesn't need a leader" into McKinney says Carr isn't a leader and posting it is misleading people." I am not sure how you can say that considering that McClains statements go right to the heart of his putting in the extra practice.

Big B Texan Fan
01-19-2006, 11:36 AM
Y'all seem to have a different definition for paraphrasing. The testimonial was almost working until you added the Pittman bit. I heard that interview several times and Pittman did not affirmatively say Carr was not a leader.

Whatever--no point arguing about this. Y'all "heard" what you wanted.
I believe when asked by Marc "so would you say Carr is the leader as the QB" Pittman said no.

infantrycak
01-19-2006, 11:38 AM
"He never said he was the leader and never said he wasn't."

I'm not sure if that clarifies anything but I can at least say that I wasn't dreaming up these conversations as their answers attest to. I think one thing learned is that we all hear different things in the media and for the most part you can form your own conclusions off of them.

That is what I recall as a fair paraphrase of the conversations McKinney has had. The only point I was trying to clarify was McKinney did not affirmatively state Carr was not a leader. I can see where people could infer that from his statements, but it was not a direct statement. Same with Pittman. I was harsh in trying to make that distinction clear, but IMO it is significant.

infantrycak
01-19-2006, 11:39 AM
I believe when asked by Marc "so would you say Carr is the leader as the QB" Pittman said no.

No he did not--he failed to identify Carr when asked who the leaders were. It was an omission not an affirmative statement.

Here you go from the actual day of the interview: Link (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=13663&highlight=long+snapper)

On my way home today I caught a replay on 610 of an interview from earlier at Hooter's tonight, with our deep snapper Bryan Pittman. When asked about who the team leaders were he immediately said Payne and Wong.

Then he was asked about offensive leaders and his reply was"......(silence with Hooters noise in background).............uh............uh.......... ..maybe Zach Weigert"--from YellerLotDweller

chuckm
01-19-2006, 11:42 AM
will the winner of this argument have actually made a point salient to the Texans/Vince Young/Reggie Bush/ or God forbid ... Peyton Manning?

HoustonFrog
01-19-2006, 11:49 AM
That is what I recall as a fair paraphrase of the conversations McKinney has had. The only point I was trying to clarify was McKinney did not affirmatively state Carr was not a leader. I can see where people could infer that from his statements, but it was not a direct statement. Same with Pittman. I was harsh in trying to make that distinction clear, but IMO it is significant.

As I said, I'll take it like a man if I paraphrased wrong. I just took the conversation to mean just that. I'm not trying to be a harsh jerk or anything. I just formed the opinions from all of these things I heard and from what I saw on the field. I have no hard feelings towards those who oppose it because that is what the message board is for. Chuckm, I have no clue what post this is:) I'll go find more FAs I like now or think of more movie titles for VY and McClain.

Kaiser Toro
01-19-2006, 11:59 AM
Well after reading all of these posts there does not seem to be much difference between the two. So I consulted with a cohort of mine who dabbles in astrology. I showed her this thread as well as Manning's and Carr's bio on nfl.com and you would be surpised on what she found:

Manning was born on 3/24/76 he is an Aries:
ARIES The Ram people are born between March 21 to April 20. Their keywords are I am, and their ruling planet is Mars.

According to the Chinese Calendar he was born in the Year of the Dragon.

Carr was born on 7/21/1979 and he is a Cancer:
CANCER The Crab people are born between June 22 to July 22. Their keywords are I feel, or I nurture, and their ruling influence is the Moon.

According to the Chinese Calendar he was born in the Year of the Sheep.

She said Manning was born to lead and Carr was born to follow.

I ususally defer to people of the astrological inclination when having to make these type of tough decisions. To quote Ron Burgundy, "Its science." :)

Big B Texan Fan
01-19-2006, 12:01 PM
No he did not--he failed to identify Carr when asked who the leaders were. It was an omission not an affirmative statement.

Here you go from the actual day of the interview: Link (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=13663&highlight=long+snapper)

--from YellerLotDweller
That was the just the beginning. I'll try to find it and paste it to a new thread or you can move back here (doesn't matter to me if you move it)
Maybe I'll see that I'm wrong, but like frog sez, I took it for what it sounded like. Fans like/tend to read between the lines. Are you a sports reporter in training or something (most are afraid to go on record with an opinion until after the fact). It's one thing for us to make stuff up but if there's smoke there's fire. That's why we visit these MB's, to get our opinions off our chests, to see what the pulse of the masses are thinking, not state just only to the facts. If that were the case then we'd all read box scores and call it a day. Then all you modifiers would be modifying other modifiers modificated posts. I guess I'd call that a Mod-House. LOL, get it.

Big B Texan Fan
01-19-2006, 12:03 PM
According to the Chinese Calendar he was born in the Year of the Sheep.
Not a good thing when you get drafted by a team in Texas.:confused:

infantrycak
01-19-2006, 12:12 PM
Fans like/tend to read between the lines. Are you a sports reporter in training or something (most are afraid to go on record with an opinion until after the fact). It's one thing for us to make stuff up but if there's smoke there's fire.

It is just a precision thing. Everyone is free to make their own inferences and have their own opinions--that is the purpose of the MB. But IMO it is important to be accurate in reporting events so others can make their inferences and opinions. I have no problem with you or HoustonFrog believing the statements made by Pittman or McKinney implied Carr wasn't a leader. I just want it clear for readers who didn't hear the shows that it wasn't actually a direct statement and the comments could have been interpreted different ways.

Double Barrel
01-19-2006, 12:16 PM
I ususally defer to people of the astrological inclination when having to make these type of tough decisions. To quote Ron Burgundy, "Its science." :)

I use a Magic 8 Ball. It says Manning is "Yes, Definitely" a leader, and Carr is "Ask Again Later" regarding his leadership. Sounds about right. :howdy: