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AstroTexan
01-17-2006, 01:13 PM
I've read in a few posts in the whole Reggie vs. Vince Young vs. Trading the pick scenario, but I want to focus on Vince Young and peoples thoughts about him being underdeveloped.

For those of you who think Vince Young is the way to go the most of you seem to think it is feasable to get rid of Carr and start Young next year. This is the most underthought logic I've heard of in a while. If we do for some reason take Vince Young with the number 1 pick, he has to sit at least 1 season if not 2 to get Kubiaks system down along with reading the different more complicatedc coverages he'll see in the NFL.

The other thing that Vince Young will need to do is learn to tuck the ball away when he checks out of his reads and runs the ball. The way he runs right now, as was seen in the Texas A&M game is withtout the ball enough. He needs to protect it better or will be fumbling like Tiki Barber did 2 years ago with the Giants.

It is feasable to compare him right now to Michael Vick coming out of VTech. As you seen, the Falcons had average teams for the first few years Vick was starting, but they really haven't been a great team. It was until this year where Michael Vick became a qualtiy NFL QB. If you compare him to his earlier years, Vick is now going through his progression and checking off all options before taking off and running the ball. This is something that will have to be learned by Vince Young as well. It is something that athletic/running QB's from college have to go through and it takes time.

Any more thoughts on Young being underdeveloped?

jerek
01-17-2006, 01:18 PM
Pretty much agree. Will need at least a year, maybe 2-3 before he is good at:

- Learn to read NFL schemes/coverages
- Play an NFL style offense
- Adapt to NFL defenses' speed
- Polish his arm and release

Vince should have a bright future ahead of him. He is a bright kid, a hard worker, and there is no denying his talent. As far as all of this crap about "no one ever like him," that is garbage hype, nothing more. But he is clearly talented.

I expect him to have a good and quite possibly great NFL career. I just expect him to do it elsewhere.

El Tejano
01-17-2006, 01:19 PM
I think that Vince started doing all the things you are saying already though. In comparison to Vick, Young has matured alot more than Vick did at Young's stage of his career. Plus Vick did more in college than Vick ever did.

I do agree with the putting the ball away.

HardKnockTexan
01-17-2006, 01:24 PM
I'm sorry but I'm just not sold on Young being great in the NFL untill I see his onfield performance against NFL defenses. Too many big name QB's shined in college and completley flopped in the pros. Andre Ware was suposed to set the world on fire and he was horrible for the Lions. Akili Smith busted with the Bengals, Rick Myers (sp) did nothing for the Seahawks, Tim Couch sucked it up with the Browns and Ryan Leaf cried his way out of San Diego.

I cant think of a Linebacker that went high in the first round that has busted except for Brian Bosworth and not a single high first round left tackle has flopped completley that I can think of.

Big B Texan Fan
01-17-2006, 01:31 PM
Any more thoughts on Young being underdeveloped?
Carr started right from the get go and alot of people think he's still the answer.

Look Carr is bad, really bad. #2 at best (that's not really that bad, sorry)
With all the right pieces in place Carr would excell at being one of the best back-ups in the NFL at best.

Carr is this decades version of Andre Ware. Monster senior year in college but so far a complete failure in the NFL. Season 2 Banks won 2 or 3 of our games as well as beating a SB opponent and almost beating the SB winner. Carr could only muster up 2 more wins the following season. Carr is tough but he reminds me of a stronger armed Bucky Richardson.

Bush is underdeveloped and undersized. And to those who wil say he's not as underdeveloped than Young, QB to RB is a Huge diffrence.It takes a smarter player to play QB

Leinert is underdeveloped.

AJ hawk is underdeveloped. Hell they're all underdeveloped. Whats your point, Life in the NFL is totally different from college. It takes all players time to develope in the NFL.
:homer:

Glacier
01-17-2006, 03:09 PM
Pretty much agree. Will need at least a year, maybe 2-3 before he is good at:

- Learn to read NFL schemes/coverages
- Play an NFL style offense
- Adapt to NFL defenses' speed
- Polish his arm and release

Vince should have a bright future ahead of him. He is a bright kid, a hard worker, and there is no denying his talent. As far as all of this crap about "no one ever like him," that is garbage hype, nothing more. But he is clearly talented.

I expect him to have a good and quite possibly great NFL career. I just expect him to do it elsewhere.

heh, I don't understand how people say he will have to learn how to "play in an NFL style offense"

You know, Texas offense is based on Indy's offense, right? Peyton Manning works out of the shotgun quite a bit. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Elway ran quite a bit of shot gun in his time too.....

jerek
01-17-2006, 03:13 PM
heh, I don't understand how people say he will have to learn how to "play in an NFL style offense"

You know, Texas offense is based on Indy's offense, right? Peyton Manning works out of the shotgun quite a bit. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Elway ran quite a bit of shot gun in his time too.....

Texas offense is "based" on Indy's offense?

Is it now? The Colts use shotgun quite a bit, not virtually all of the time.

Excuse me while I dust off the rest of my points, none of which you even addressed, which leads me to believe that you cannot refute them, or have (wisely) chosen not to try.

MorKnolle
01-17-2006, 03:21 PM
heh, I don't understand how people say he will have to learn how to "play in an NFL style offense"

You know, Texas offense is based on Indy's offense, right? Peyton Manning works out of the shotgun quite a bit. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Elway ran quite a bit of shot gun in his time too.....

UT runs a zone-read offense, and Vince will not be able to run that in the NFL. 90%+ of their snaps are out of a shotgun, which also will not happen in the NFL, Indy runs it maybe 5% of the time and sometimes Manning will audible into a shotgun. USC's offense is relatively similar to a pro offense, but UT is far from it.

eclem5
01-17-2006, 03:23 PM
Firast of all It's going to take Carr 2-3 years to get Kubiak's offense down anyway, obviously he does have the present offense down. How many completions over 20 did Carr have this year? Let's face it Carr is damaged goods. I would rather Take Vince or trade down for D'Brickshaw and an obsurb amount of draft picks.

Glacier
01-17-2006, 03:25 PM
Pretty much agree. Will need at least a year, maybe 2-3 before he is good at:

- Learn to read NFL schemes/coverages
- Play an NFL style offense
- Adapt to NFL defenses' speed
- Polish his arm and release

Vince should have a bright future ahead of him. He is a bright kid, a hard worker, and there is no denying his talent. As far as all of this crap about "no one ever like him," that is garbage hype, nothing more. But he is clearly talented.

I expect him to have a good and quite possibly great NFL career. I just expect him to do it elsewhere.


Okay, since you wanted feed back on your no brainer, shockingly amazing insight.....

- Learn to read NFL schemes/coverages

Coaching...he needs Kubiak. Same goes for Carr, who has underachieved. Carr needs coaching as well. It could be argued that Carr needs more coaching than Vince since, all Vince does is win. All Carr does is get pounded and throw interceptions. Houston has not had a very good coaching staff. I am a firm believer that Coaching is EVERYTHING. Btw, this point would also apply to Bush having to learn blocking schemes or Leihart as well.

- Adapt to NFL defenses' speed

You know....Bush had problems adjusting to Texas' defensive speed. His one REAL big run for a touch came after LenDale had been plowing and pounding and grinding down that defense FOR him.....Dominack Davis won't be filling that role if you take Bush. Furthermore, anyone drafted will have to adjust.

- Polish his arm and release

this would be a huge mistake that people need to get over. The kid than sling the ball and make ALL the throws. his release is QUICK! Other QBs have had good success with a side armed release. The focus on Vince needs to be on his mind, not his already superior god given gifts. if anything at all, he will need to work on his game below his waste and above his shoulders.... foot work and reading defenses.....nothing more.

MorKnolle
01-17-2006, 03:32 PM
Okay, since you wanted feed back on your no brainer, shockingly amazing insight.....

- Learn to read NFL schemes/coverages

Coaching...he needs Kubiak. Same goes for Carr, who has underachieved. Carr needs coaching as well. It could be argued that Carr needs more coaching than Vince since, all Vince does is win. All Carr does is get pounded and throw interceptions. Houston has not had a very good coaching staff. I am a firm believer that Coaching is EVERYTHING. Btw, this point would also apply to Bush having to learn blocking schemes or Leihart as well.

- Adapt to NFL defenses' speed

You know....Bush had problems adjusting to Texas' defensive speed. His one REAL big run for a touch came after LenDale had been plowing and pounding and grinding down that defense FOR him.....Dominack Davis won't be filling that role if you take Bush. Furthermore, anyone drafted will have to adjust.

- Polish his arm and release

this would be a huge mistake that people need to get over. The kid than sling the ball and make ALL the throws. his release is QUICK! Other QBs have had good success with a side armed release. The focus on Vince needs to be on his mind, not his already superior god given gifts. if anything at all, he will need to work on his game below his waste and above his shoulders.... foot work and reading defenses.....nothing more.

This is ridiculous. Carr has less of his game to work on than Vince Young. Saying that Vince doesn't need to adjust his throwing style is also just silly, throwing sidearm like that is going to make it very hard to get the ball off, it negates his height advantage over some QBs, and he can't make all the throws. He can't throw an accurate ball more than 35 yards downfield, he has a slow release, he has horrible footwork and doesn't step into his throws, he doesn't read defenses very well unless they're backed off into a cover 2 zone and he can throw 3 yard routes underneath the defense. The few things Carr really needs to work on are just in his head, whereas Vince needs to develop those same things in addition to fixing his whole throwing motion from his feet on up to his arm, as well as adjusting to the speed and defenses in the NFL and not working out of a shotgun 95% of his plays.

Glacier
01-17-2006, 04:08 PM
This is ridiculous. Carr has less of his game to work on than Vince Young. Saying that Vince doesn't need to adjust his throwing style is also just silly, throwing sidearm like that is going to make it very hard to get the ball off, it negates his height advantage over some QBs, and he can't make all the throws. He can't throw an accurate ball more than 35 yards downfield, he has a slow release, he has horrible footwork and doesn't step into his throws, he doesn't read defenses very well unless they're backed off into a cover 2 zone and he can throw 3 yard routes underneath the defense. The few things Carr really needs to work on are just in his head, whereas Vince needs to develop those same things in addition to fixing his whole throwing motion from his feet on up to his arm, as well as adjusting to the speed and defenses in the NFL and not working out of a shotgun 95% of his plays.


wow...I don't know what to make of all this other than suspect that 1. you are an A&M fan, 2. you MIGHT be an alien, 3. it is possible that you might be on drugs and out of touch with reality or 4. you didn't watch Vince Young play.

Stephen A. Smith, of ESPN2's "Quite Frankly" had Charlie Weis on a few days ago. They had the regular ol **** chat about the state of the ND football program, the pats, Tom Brady.....

Then for some odd reason, Stephen Smith felt the need to ask Charlie Weis what he thought about Vince Young.....o man....

Charlie Weis said some VERY interesting and positive things about Vince and his game. Anyone have a link or audio clip of Charlie Weis on Vince Young?

jerek
01-17-2006, 04:13 PM
wow...I don't know what to make of all this other than suspect that 1. you are an A&M fan, 2. you MIGHT be an alien, 3. it is possible that you might be on drugs and out of touch with reality or 4. you didn't watch Vince Young play.

Stephen A. Smith, of ESPN2's "Quite Frankly" had Charlie Weis on a few days ago. They had the regular ol **** chat about the state of the ND football program, the pats, Tom Brady.....

Then for some odd reason, Stephen Smith felt the need to ask Charlie Weis what he thought about Vince Young.....o man....

Charlie Weis said some VERY interesting and positive things about Vince and his game. Anyone have a link or audio clip of Charlie Weis on Vince Young?

This is great. The VY crowd will pull up Charlie Weis, Skip Bayless, or really any old Joe Schmo with a blog and parrot on about how this guy extolled Vince, but never mind the other 75% of analysts, scouts, and league coaches who would so much as dare to defend David Carr or say that the Texans don't need to draft VY.

Way to completely ignore Mork's post and pull a line out of your *** about what Charlie Weis had to say.

Glacier
01-17-2006, 04:20 PM
This is great. The VY crowd will pull up Charlie Weis, Skip Bayless, or really any old Joe Schmo with a blog and parrot on about how this guy extolled Vince, but never mind the other 75% of analysts, scouts, and league coaches who would so much as dare to defend David Carr or say that the Texans don't need to draft VY.

Way to completely ignore Mork's post and pull a line out of your *** about what Charlie Weis had to say.

You are missing the point. The point is, Weis has 3 Superbowl titles under his belt as an offensive coordinator. He, in his first year, took a ND team with marginal talent and a QB who was washing out, shook them up and moved them back into the College Football Elite....

This isn't some scrub analyst talking. When a man like Weis speaks, if you love football and respect accomplishment and results, you should LISTEN to what he has to say on some random topic. He has nothing to gain by edifying Vince Young...yet, he was OBVIOUSLY a huge fan of what Vince has done in Texas, calling him a "Pass first quarterback." That tells me that he studied Vince, just in case......you KNOW he had to have a lot of film on Vince just in case they ended up meeting Texas.

Thats all I'm saying. Analysts as well as us message board warriors are mostly clueless, I believe; however, when the man who developed Tom Brady and has 3 Superbowls under his belt speaks, I listen VERY intently. Hunt down that transcript of Weis speaking on Vince Young....you will be shocked to hear what he says.

jerek
01-17-2006, 04:23 PM
You are missing the point. The point is, Weis has 3 Superbowl titles under his belt as an offensive coordinator. He, in his first year, took a ND team with marginal talent and a QB who was washing out, shook them up and moved them back into the College Football Elite....

This isn't some scrub analyst talking. When a man like Weis speaks, if you love football and respect accomplishment and results, you should LISTEN to what he has to say on some random topic. He has nothing to gain by edifying Vince Young...yet, he was OBVIOUSLY a huge fan of what Vince has done in Texas, calling him a "Pass first quarterback." That tells me that he studied Vince, just in case......you KNOW he had to have a lot of film on Vince just in case they ended up meeting Texas.

Thats all I'm saying. Analysts as well as us message board warriors are mostly clueless, I believe; however, when the man who developed Tom Brady and has 3 Superbowls under his belt speaks, I listen VERY intently.

You know what Glac? ... I am going to go on record as saying I was wrong about you. That is exactly the type of reasoning that belongs in a discussion such as this. That is not sarcasm, that is the honest truth of it.

That said, I would like to know what Weis specifically said. I have said it a hundred times on here, Vince is not a bad QB, I think he will be good in the league. I still don't think we need him, but that is my thought.

Any way, credit to you man, you have shown yourself just now.

MorKnolle
01-17-2006, 04:23 PM
wow...I don't know what to make of all this other than suspect that 1. you are an A&M fan, 2. you MIGHT be an alien, 3. it is possible that you might be on drugs and out of touch with reality or 4. you didn't watch Vince Young play.

Stephen A. Smith, of ESPN2's "Quite Frankly" had Charlie Weis on a few days ago. They had the regular ol **** chat about the state of the ND football program, the pats, Tom Brady.....

Then for some odd reason, Stephen Smith felt the need to ask Charlie Weis what he thought about Vince Young.....o man....

Charlie Weis said some VERY interesting and positive things about Vince and his game. Anyone have a link or audio clip of Charlie Weis on Vince Young?

1) I don't like the Aggies
2) I'm pretty sure I'm not an alien
3) I am definitely not on drugs or out of touch with reality
4) I have watched some of Vince's games in their entirety and I've seen a lot of additional game tape on him and talked to a few people in the professional football community that agree with that assessment (actually some of those points I picked up from them)

I'm sure Charlie Weis did have some positive things to say about Vince, everyone including myself does, but that doesn't change the fact that his passing mechanics are not especially good from the time he receives the snap (usually in a shotgun) to the time he releases the ball.

Glacier
01-17-2006, 04:42 PM
1) I don't like the Aggies
2) I'm pretty sure I'm not an alien
3) I am definitely not on drugs or out of touch with reality
4) I have watched some of Vince's games in their entirety and I've seen a lot of additional game tape on him and talked to a few people in the professional football community that agree with that assessment (actually some of those points I picked up from them)

I'm sure Charlie Weis did have some positive things to say about Vince, everyone including myself does, but that doesn't change the fact that his passing mechanics are not especially good from the time he receives the snap (usually in a shotgun) to the time he releases the ball.


One of the most interesting points that Charlie Weis made about Vince Young was on his throwing motion.

Not an exact quote but, I remember him saying something along the lines of...

"A throwing motion can be coached and tweeked in the pros. You can't coach god given talent."

That was probably the more interesting thing he said. He did touch on the leadership aspect of Vince's game, which is an intangible that can't be measured.

In all, I'm not hating on Carr at all. I think he has it in him to be a VERY solid pro quarterback in the mold of a Jake Plummer type QB who has suffered through bad coaching, a crappy football program and bad talent evaluation. Yet, in the right circumstances, he could be playing in the AFC title game.

Taking Vince Young will probably set Houston back a couple of years in terms of potential production. In the long term though, Carr has taken a lot of punishment playing in Houston. Vince would be a better long term solution at the position.


Edit: There is one thing that has gone unmentioned in all this. I do not believe that Houston is Vince Young's best chance at being successful. I'm sure it has been mentioned that he might have better success not being around his home town and some of the potential negative influences that could be in Houston. I do want to see Vince Young succeed in the NFL. I'm not sure that Houston would be his best chance at success. I think the "TRUE" Vince Young fans would much rather see him go #3 to the Titans where he will have a solid mentor, solid coach and solid football program to grow in.

TheOgre
01-17-2006, 04:53 PM
I don't view Greg Davis as a good mentor of QB's. I think Vince improved Davis, not the other way around. I like Vince and wouldn't be overly upset if we drafted him. I am just kind of irritated by the "force of the frenzy" to take him. Something about this situation (Young/Bush) reminds me of the Applewhite/Simms debate at UT. Applewhite was all but given God status, and I feel the same way about Young now. It also reminds me of DJ in last year's draft too.

It has an artificial, built-on-pure-emotion (as opposed to logic) feel to it. I'm not saying there are not logic arguments for taking Young, but I don't think that is really the main reason some of the fans want him.

Texans_Chick
01-17-2006, 06:45 PM
UT runs a zone-read offense, and Vince will not be able to run that in the NFL. 90%+ of their snaps are out of a shotgun, which also will not happen in the NFL, Indy runs it maybe 5% of the time and sometimes Manning will audible into a shotgun. USC's offense is relatively similar to a pro offense, but UT is far from it.

Your point is well taken.

All QBs need to develop coming outta college. No matter what they ran. Tho it wasn't pro style, Vince in high school took tons of snaps under center, btw.

See e.g.:VY high school video--has sound (and words over the video), but you'll get the idea (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7916968916795488329&q=vince+young)

Just saying.

Fiddy
01-17-2006, 08:07 PM
Saying that Vince doesn't need to adjust his throwing style is also just silly, throwing sidearm like that is going to make it very hard to get the ball off, it negates his height advantage over some QBs, and he can't make all the throws. Carr resorts to his sidearm sometimes and who cares if he negates his height advantage because it's still better than some QBs.

He can't throw an accurate ball more than 35 yards downfield... Check the Kansas game when he was hitting WRs (Sweed and Crosby) downfield.

he has a slow release... NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE (except you now) has said VY has a slow release. Everyone says his best attribute in the passing game is the quick release he has.

he has horrible footwork and doesn't step into his throws... And Carr steps into throws and knows how to use the pocket??? Check the Cinnci game where he fumbled it away at the end. He never step up into his throw and there are countless times he sacks himself.

he doesn't read defenses very well unless they're backed off into a cover 2 zone and he can throw 3 yard routes underneath the defense. You dont complete 75% of your passes and average 8.9 yards per completion in a championship game if you cant read a defense and only throw 3 yard underneat routes. And he averaged 14.3 yards per completion during the season, so this 3 yard underneath routes doesnt check out unless we had some of the best YAC WRs ever.

And, in any case, Carr doesnt throw 3 yard underneath routes against Cover 2??? lol, that's all he does againt Cover 2.

chuckm
01-17-2006, 08:53 PM
Carr resorts to his sidearm sometimes and who cares if he negates his height advantage because it's still better than some QBs.

Check the Kansas game when he was hitting WRs (Sweed and Crosby) downfield.

NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE (except you now) has said VY has a slow release. Everyone says his best attribute in the passing game is the quick release he has.

And Carr steps into throws and knows how to use the pocket??? Check the Cinnci game where he fumbled it away at the end. He never step up into his throw and there are countless times he sacks himself.

You dont complete 75% of your passes and average 8.9 yards per completion in a championship game if you cant read a defense and only throw 3 yard underneat routes. And he averaged 14.3 yards per completion during the season, so this 3 yard underneath routes doesnt check out unless we had some of the best YAC WRs ever.

And, in any case, Carr doesnt throw 3 yard underneath routes against Cover 2??? lol, that's all he does againt Cover 2.


Can you put up an argument WITHOUT using David Carr?

Fiddy
01-17-2006, 09:45 PM
Can you put up an argument WITHOUT using David Carr? Why would I? I want VY to replace Carr, why would I not compare the two?

Vinny
01-18-2006, 10:42 AM
Young is further along in the passing game than McNabb was coming out of Syracuse. The zone read is a variant of the Colts offense in Indy...at least that's what Davis and Young say.

Texans_Chick
01-18-2006, 10:57 AM
Young is further along in the passing game than McNabb was coming out of Syracuse. The zone read is a variant of the Colts offense in Indy...at least that's what Davis and Young say.

Yup. And he is better NFL QB sized than Donavan too.


Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6 5 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 62 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs

Huge
01-18-2006, 02:07 PM
This is ridiculous. Carr has less of his game to work on than Vince Young. Saying that Vince doesn't need to adjust his throwing style is also just silly, throwing sidearm like that is going to make it very hard to get the ball off, it negates his height advantage over some QBs, and he can't make all the throws. He can't throw an accurate ball more than 35 yards downfield, he has a slow release, he has horrible footwork and doesn't step into his throws, he doesn't read defenses very well unless they're backed off into a cover 2 zone and he can throw 3 yard routes underneath the defense. The few things Carr really needs to work on are just in his head, whereas Vince needs to develop those same things in addition to fixing his whole throwing motion from his feet on up to his arm, as well as adjusting to the speed and defenses in the NFL and not working out of a shotgun 95% of his plays.
I'll address a few points here:

1. Shorter QBs do not make up their height disadvantage by throwing over the top. Carr doesn't throw over the top. Much was made about it when he came in the league and that they'd try to correct it. 4 years later he still has the same throwing motion. His throwing motion also doesn't affect the timing of his release. He's got one of the quicker releases of any QB because of his mechanics. As ugly as it is, it's irrelevent.

2. No QB makes "all the throws". Each is better at making some throws than others so you design your passing game around what they can do best.

3. He is accurate past 35 yards. If you'd like, I'll post some visual evidence. Just ask.

4. He does have horrible footwork. Fortunately, this is the easiest problem to solve with QBs...unlike throwing mechanics.

5. If he's dumping the ball off underneath with the safeties are playing a 2-deep, then that's pretty much the definition of "reading a defense". Throwing into that 2-deep coverage (downfield) would be the opposite of reading a defense.

6. And while he did spend the majority of his career in the shotgun, did you ever see him struggle enough when he was under center that would lead you to believe it's going to be difficult to make that transition? Again, I can provide visual evidence of Vince under center and not having much problem doing so. Just ask.

thunderkyss
01-18-2006, 02:15 PM
UT runs a zone-read offense, and Vince will not be able to run that in the NFL. 90%+ of their snaps are out of a shotgun, which also will not happen in the NFL, Indy runs it maybe 5% of the time and sometimes Manning will audible into a shotgun. USC's offense is relatively similar to a pro offense, but UT is far from it.


Just for the sake of arguing, N.O. plays out of the shotgun more than 60% of the time I'm sure.

thunderkyss
01-18-2006, 02:34 PM
I've read in a few posts in the whole Reggie vs. Vince Young vs. Trading the pick scenario, but I want to focus on Vince Young and peoples thoughts about him being underdeveloped.

For those of you who think Vince Young is the way to go the most of you seem to think it is feasable to get rid of Carr and start Young next year. This is the most underthought logic I've heard of in a while. If we do for some reason take Vince Young with the number 1 pick, he has to sit at least 1 season if not 2 to get Kubiaks system down along with reading the different more complicatedc coverages he'll see in the NFL.
Well..... here goes my popularity, but I think he and David Carr will be about even here. Carr may have more experience reading NFL defenses, but that don't mean he's doing it right. Carr knows as much about Kubiak's new system as Vince does. Personally, I want Kubiak to fix the O-line. After that, Car gets 8 Games. If he wins four of the first 8, he can play the rest of the season. If he can't, we start developing Vince on the field.

The other thing that Vince Young will need to do is learn to tuck the ball away when he checks out of his reads and runs the ball. The way he runs right now, as was seen in the Texas A&M game is withtout the ball enough. He needs to protect it better or will be fumbling like Tiki Barber did 2 years ago with the Giants. I don't like the way Favre runs with the ball, or Vick, or Dante, or Donavan..... but what're you going to do. The first thing I'd teach him, is how to slide.... we want him for 16 games.

It is feasable to compare him right now to Michael Vick coming out of VTech. As you seen, the Falcons had average teams for the first few years Vick was starting, but they really haven't been a great team. It was until this year where Michael Vick became a qualtiy NFL QB. If you compare him to his earlier years, Vick is now going through his progression and checking off all options before taking off and running the ball. This is something that will have to be learned by Vince Young as well. It is something that athletic/running QB's from college have to go through and it takes time.
Not even close..... Vince has numbers this year that puts him with some of the best throwers, in yards, and completion percentage, and yards per play. Vick has had none of those. Vince has shown year after year, that he is coachable, more so than many of the ones we see starting in the NFL today. He's also got that Peyton Manning burn to be better than what he is.
So he is a passer.... it is wrong, to compare him to Vick, just wrong.
Vince has run for more yards than most passer type QBs.... Very good passing numbers, outstanding running numbers from a QB, but the kid is a QB.

Now Michael Vick was drafted by a bad... Bad Atlanta Falcon team. That's how they got the #1 pick. Vick turned them around immediately, he and the Falcons won a playoff game in 2004. I think this year was his worst year, trying to be a real QB.... and I'm not a Vick fan, but you've got to let him do what he does... Trying to get him to sit back and pass, you've got an average QB. Let him be Michael Vick, and you've got an NFL superstar(he might not be a QB, but he's a superstar) and he can win games.



Any more thoughts on Young being underdeveloped?[/QUOTE]

MorKnolle
01-18-2006, 02:50 PM
I'll address a few points here:

1. Shorter QBs do not make up their height disadvantage by throwing over the top. Carr doesn't throw over the top. Much was made about it when he came in the league and that they'd try to correct it. 4 years later he still has the same throwing motion. His throwing motion also doesn't affect the timing of his release. He's got one of the quicker releases of any QB because of his mechanics. As ugly as it is, it's irrelevent.

2. No QB makes "all the throws". Each is better at making some throws than others so you design your passing game around what they can do best.

3. He is accurate past 35 yards. If you'd like, I'll post some visual evidence. Just ask.

4. He does have horrible footwork. Fortunately, this is the easiest problem to solve with QBs...unlike throwing mechanics.

5. If he's dumping the ball off underneath with the safeties are playing a 2-deep, then that's pretty much the definition of "reading a defense". Throwing into that 2-deep coverage (downfield) would be the opposite of reading a defense.

6. And while he did spend the majority of his career in the shotgun, did you ever see him struggle enough when he was under center that would lead you to believe it's going to be difficult to make that transition? Again, I can provide visual evidence of Vince under center and not having much problem doing so. Just ask.

I've seen quite enough actual game film of Vince Young while people have put more than enough highlight reels of his 10 best plays from the year on the message boards already, but thanks for the offer. I didn't say anything about how shorter QBs make up their height difference, but everyone keeps pointing out how big Vince Young was so I was pointing out that when you throw side-arm you're releasing the ball as low if not lower than everyone else. Obviously no QB can make "all the throws", but people have been claiming on here that Vince does, so I'm glad we're in agreement about that. Yes he has made many correct reads on throwing the ball underneath and that is a good choice if that's the best option against the defense, but my point was he hasn't had to throw the ball deep as much as some QBs and from what little I've seen I don't think he can do it all that well. I can pull up a few random plays of Vince under center, but my point was he does it for maybe 5 plays per game so going to doing it 50-60 plays a game will be a bit of an adjustment, shouldn't be that big of one, but it will still be an adjustment. I am not/was not saying Vince is a horrible QB or will not be good, I was merely responding to the post saying that David had more of his game to work on than Vince did, and seeing how off-the-end ridiculous some of their ideas were led to my pointing out Vince's flaws like that in my post.

Huge
01-18-2006, 06:51 PM
I've seen quite enough actual game film of Vince Young while people have put more than enough highlight reels of his 10 best plays from the year on the message boards already, but thanks for the offer.
But you still think he's inaccurate beyond 35 yards?

I didn't say anything about how shorter QBs make up their height difference, but everyone keeps pointing out how big Vince Young was so I was pointing out that when you throw side-arm you're releasing the ball as low if not lower than everyone else.
My point was, if the shorter QBs aren't able to make up the difference by throwing over the top, what does it matter if a taller QB throws side arm? Answer: It doesn't matter. If completing passes was determined by the height of your release point, Doug Flutie never would've completed a pass past the high school level.

Obviously no QB can make "all the throws", but people have been claiming on here that Vince does, so I'm glad we're in agreement about that.
Yeah, they'd be way off base in making that claim.

Yes he has made many correct reads on throwing the ball underneath and that is a good choice if that's the best option against the defense, but my point was he hasn't had to throw the ball deep as much as some QBs and from what little I've seen I don't think he can do it all that well.
And yet he finished 4th in the nation in yards per attempt.

I can pull up a few random plays of Vince under center, but my point was he does it for maybe 5 plays per game so going to doing it 50-60 plays a game will be a bit of an adjustment, shouldn't be that big of one, but it will still be an adjustment. I am not/was not saying Vince is a horrible QB or will not be good, I was merely responding to the post saying that David had more of his game to work on than Vince did, and seeing how off-the-end ridiculous some of their ideas were led to my pointing out Vince's flaws like that in my post.
Fair enough.

MorKnolle
01-18-2006, 07:25 PM
But you still think he's inaccurate beyond 35 yards?


Yes. He had some good throws but most were not very accurate and he underthrew a lot of balls that would not have been completed without his 6'5" WRs making a good play on it, and those types of throws won't work out in the NFL the vast majority of the time.

My point was, if the shorter QBs aren't able to make up the difference by throwing over the top, what does it matter if a taller QB throws side arm? Answer: It doesn't matter. If completing passes was determined by the height of your release point, Doug Flutie never would've completed a pass past the high school level.


I'm not saying shorter QBs can't complete a pass or that Vince won't be able to because of his throwing motion, but he will have a fair number of his throws knocked down at the line of scrimmage by DLinemen that a QB of his size would not normally have knocked down with a conventional throwing style, so it will inhibit some of his passes, not all of them, but more than a conventional 6'5" QB, and from that standpoint some of his "prototypical height" is negated.

Yeah, they'd be way off base in making that claim.


Yes they are, as anyone is who says any QB can make all the throws. Certainly that has somewhat become a cliche and should not be taken literally, but still I think Vince will have trouble (at least for a couple years) making some throws that many other big-time QBs will not.

And yet he finished 4th in the nation in yards per attempt.


Yards after catch and again some nice catches by his large WRs downfield on underthrown balls. OK, let me put it like this, the guy on ESPN 790 radio said it this way when I was on my way home this afternoon. Vince does not have a week arm, he has a long arm, not a "strong" arm. He has the physical capability to throw the ball a decent distance downfield but he cannot do so overly precisely and he does not presently put great zip on the ball like certain QBs (ala Favre, Elway, etc.) and cannot "throw a 98 mph fast ball" to quote the radio guy's baseball analogy. David Carr has a better ability at that than Vince does.

Fair enough.

Again, I'm not saying Vince is not a good QB, that he did not have a great season, or that he will not be a good NFL QB. I am saying he definitely has some limitations right now, and in my mind David Carr is not a bad QB and has the potential to be a great QB just like Vince does, and to me that does not warrant spending the #1 overall pick on a QB for the second time in five drafts and paying him the corresponding $60 million contract.

real
01-18-2006, 07:37 PM
I'm not saying shorter QBs can't complete a pass or that Vince won't be able to because of his throwing motion, but he will have a fair number of his throws knocked down at the line of scrimmage by DLinemen that a QB of his size would not normally have knocked down with a conventional throwing style, so it will inhibit some of his passes, not all of them, but more than a conventional 6'5" QB, and from that standpoint some of his "prototypical height" is negated.


I looked up passes deflected and not one DT or DE was in the top 100...lowest person had 8...That means no Defensive tackle or end had more than 8 tip balls at the line of scrimage...CONCLUSION: BALLS BEING TIPPED AT THE LINE OF SCRIMAGE IS OVERRATED (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/sortableStats?div=NFL&stable=interception&stat=intPd&dir=descending)
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/sortableStats?div=NFL&stable=interception&stat=intPd&dir=descending

Fiddy
01-18-2006, 07:46 PM
Yards after catch and again some nice catches by his large WRs downfield on underthrown balls. So the WRs are the only reason for YAC: But Jeff Ireland believes strongly in Rac-Ac.

"Rac-Ac?"

Never heard of it.

Ireland, the Cowboys vice president of college and pro scouting, answered, "It means run- after-catch accuracy."

OK, now I understand.

Is the quarterback delivering the ball to the right spot, allowing a receiver to run for additional yardage after the catch?

"Vince Young does that, and does it well," said Ireland. "In our business, we look at his delivery, and it's so screwed up, the way he kinda flicks the ball out there with a side-armed motion.

"A scout sees that, and he goes, `Oh, no.' "

But if you keep watching, explained Ireland, the ball is delivered with accuracy and touch.

"Young's Rac-Ac is very good," he said. http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/columnists/randy_galloway/13590996.htm

syberlan
01-18-2006, 07:54 PM
What could we get for Carr ? There isn't room for both salaries, and right now Carr is damaged goods because of the perenial losing. His value is only to the Texans. I don't believe a team would give fair value when they know we are trading to clear the way for Vince. As much as I hate to think of it, the business side of this game must be considered. Trading a number 1 draft pick QB for a third rounder is a fire sale. The guy they would pick in the draft might not even start. This is a reclamation project, and it may take a couple years to fix. I can't believe we had all those draft picks early on and didn't come up with either a dominant offensive or defensive line. Dom hitched his wagon to Boselli's (sp?) comet as it crashed into Jupiter. Now the expansion draft guys are starting to get old with not alot to back 'em up. I hate my life.

real
01-18-2006, 07:59 PM
I've heard that Saban really likes Carr and is willing to trade Ricky williams and they're 1st or second rd pick...I heard that on the radio...

thunderkyss
01-18-2006, 08:47 PM
I know Fans from other teams, their eyes light up, when I imply Carr may be available. But they all believe they should be able to get him cheap.

Now as far as Vince's delivery...... We all know that Vince is going to have to work on it........ but that doesn't take away from his viability as a number one overall....

Huge
01-18-2006, 08:50 PM
Yes. He had some good throws but most were not very accurate and he underthrew a lot of balls that would not have been completed without his 6'5" WRs making a good play on it, and those types of throws won't work out in the NFL the vast majority of the time.
He has one 6'5 WR (Limas Sweed). Sweed averaged 15.1 yards per catch. That'd put him behind Billy Pittman (6'0, 22.1 per), Quan Cosby (6'0, 18 per) and just ahead of Brian Carter (6'0, 14.6 per).

Do you think Matt Leinart doesn't (and would be stupid enough not to) rely on Dwayne Jarrett's physical advantage over DBs?

I'm not saying shorter QBs can't complete a pass or that Vince won't be able to because of his throwing motion, but he will have a fair number of his throws knocked down at the line of scrimmage by DLinemen that a QB of his size would not normally have knocked down with a conventional throwing style, so it will inhibit some of his passes, not all of them, but more than a conventional 6'5" QB, and from that standpoint some of his "prototypical height" is negated.
You're still wrong. Chris Simms is 6'4 and has the classic over the top delivery but he's constantly getting balls batted back to him. Want to know why? Batted passes has very little to do with your release point (again, see Doug Flutie as evidence).

Yards after catch and again some nice catches by his large WRs downfield on underthrown balls. OK, let me put it like this, the guy on ESPN 790 radio said it this way when I was on my way home this afternoon. Vince does not have a week arm, he has a long arm, not a "strong" arm. He has the physical capability to throw the ball a decent distance downfield but he cannot do so overly precisely and he does not presently put great zip on the ball like certain QBs (ala Favre, Elway, etc.) and cannot "throw a 98 mph fast ball" to quote the radio guy's baseball analogy. David Carr has a better ability at that than Vince does.
Do you think the 3 guys that finished ahead of him in YPA and the group that finished behind him all had their WRs fall down after the catch? Call me crazy but I'm willing to bet they gained a few YACs as well and that helped their averages. Hence....averages.

How many QBs have arms like Elway and Favre? I'll give you a hint...there might be 2 people. And no, Carr is not one of them (neither is Vince).

Problem with most people is they can't get past Vince's throwing mechanics. They take the easy route and assume all the other passing problems come with his motion. His poor footwork is well documented. But have you paid attention to the zip on his ball when he uses proper footwork? It's no different than any other QB that's been drafted 1st overall the past several years.

If you have the tape of the Ohio State game, fast forward to the 12:40 mark of the 4th qtr. Texas has a 3rd and 12. From the left hash mark (keep in mind how much wider college hash marks are than the NFL's), Vince completes a 13 yard pass to Brian Carter (6'0, BTW) on the right sidelines.. And that was just as somebody was hitting him. That's a throw of at least 30 yards and it was on a rope.

To say he can't put zip on the ball is naive at best...delusional at worst.

syberlan
01-18-2006, 09:15 PM
I've heard that Saban really likes Carr and is willing to trade Ricky williams and they're 1st or second rd pick...I heard that on the radio...

I heard the same rumor. I love Ricky, but he is one bong hit from becoming a wholistic healer. IMO, it would take more than their first round pick to take him. Didn't Davis just sign a fat contract ?

thunderkyss
01-18-2006, 09:41 PM
He has one 6'5 WR (Limas Sweed). Sweed averaged 15.1 yards per catch. That'd put him behind Billy Pittman (6'0, 22.1 per), Quan Cosby (6'0, 18 per) and just ahead of Brian Carter (6'0, 14.6 per).

Do you think Matt Leinart doesn't (and would be stupid enough not to) rely on Dwayne Jarrett's physical advantage over DBs?


You're still wrong. Chris Simms is 6'4 and has the classic over the top delivery but he's constantly getting balls batted back to him. Want to know why? Batted passes has very little to do with your release point (again, see Doug Flutie as evidence).


Do you think the 3 guys that finished ahead of him in YPA and the group that finished behind him all had their WRs fall down after the catch? Call me crazy but I'm willing to bet they gained a few YACs as well and that helped their averages. Hence....averages.

How many QBs have arms like Elway and Favre? I'll give you a hint...there might be 2 people. And no, Carr is not one of them (neither is Vince).

Problem with most people is they can't get past Vince's throwing mechanics. They take the easy route and assume all the other passing problems come with his motion. His poor footwork is well documented. But have you paid attention to the zip on his ball when he uses proper footwork? It's no different than any other QB that's been drafted 1st overall the past several years.

If you have the tape of the Ohio State game, fast forward to the 12:40 mark of the 4th qtr. Texas has a 3rd and 12. From the left hash mark (keep in mind how much wider college hash marks are than the NFL's), Vince completes a 13 yard pass to Brian Carter (6'0, BTW) on the right sidelines.. And that was just as somebody was hitting him. That's a throw of at least 30 yards and it was on a rope.

To say he can't put zip on the ball is naive at best...delusional at worst.


I wouldn't even argue the point. Till all these Vince Haters come out and say Bret Favre sucks......... then it's just something they've got to pick on.

Throwing mechanics can be tought........ coached....... Leadership... the will to win.... the guy better be born with it.

'Sides he's going to argue that an NFL reciever isn't going to adjust to the ball??? that it's got to be on the money?? come on.....

Even if the recievers are getting the yards after the catch, your quarterback is either very lucky that the ball happens to be where it needed to be(because there is only one spot where a ball can be caught and the reciever is able to do what recievers do after they catch the ball)........ or he's very good. and there ain't nothing wrong with being lucky(preperation + opportunity).

Texans_Chick
01-18-2006, 11:14 PM
I can pull up a few random plays of Vince under center, but my point was he does it for maybe 5 plays per game so going to doing it 50-60 plays a game will be a bit of an adjustment, shouldn't be that big of one, but it will still be an adjustment.

At least the clips of his high school highlights showed him under center most all of the time.

Not really saying this to prove anything, but more along the lines of an interesting observation.

Glacier
01-19-2006, 11:32 AM
I heard the same rumor. I love Ricky, but he is one bong hit from becoming a wholistic healer. IMO, it would take more than their first round pick to take him. Didn't Davis just sign a fat contract ?

rofl...one bong hit...sigh...too true. I do love me some Ricky as well. Ricky Williams and Dominack Davis would punish some defenses and make them think 2 or 3 times about blowing the QB up on every snap.

Man Ricky Williams AND a #1 pick????

That would be just TOO much to pass up. Even if Houston didn't draft VY and instead went with Wheinart, that would still be another first round pick, a HOSS punishing runner and possibly that stud O Lineman or a stud defensive player or maybe an insane TE to put pressure on opposing LBs and Safteys, which might open up more field for AJ to blow up........thats a GOOD start to turning things around.

MorKnolle
01-19-2006, 12:21 PM
Problem with most people is they can't get past Vince's throwing mechanics. They take the easy route and assume all the other passing problems come with his motion. His poor footwork is well documented. But have you paid attention to the zip on his ball when he uses proper footwork? It's no different than any other QB that's been drafted 1st overall the past several years.

If you have the tape of the Ohio State game, fast forward to the 12:40 mark of the 4th qtr. Texas has a 3rd and 12. From the left hash mark (keep in mind how much wider college hash marks are than the NFL's), Vince completes a 13 yard pass to Brian Carter (6'0, BTW) on the right sidelines.. And that was just as somebody was hitting him. That's a throw of at least 30 yards and it was on a rope.

To say he can't put zip on the ball is naive at best...delusional at worst.

Not many people will agree with you that Vince has great zip on the ball, go ask some pro scouts if you want, I have done that and they agree with my assessment, and the guy on ESPN radio was the one that said that about Vince having a "long" arm and not a particularly strong one and can't throw a real zip pass. David Carr's arm strength is up there with Favre and Elway, maybe not quite there but close. Daunte Culpepper is up there with them, Byron Leftwich can zip the ball but he has a really, really long, slow release. Other than that I don't know if I could say any other current NFL QBs have an arm as strong as David Carr's

Vinny
01-19-2006, 01:07 PM
Not many people will agree with you that Vince has great zip on the ball, go ask some pro scouts if you want, I have done that and they agree with my assessment, and the guy on ESPN radio was the one that said that about Vince having a "long" arm and not a particularly strong one and can't throw a real zip pass. David Carr's arm strength is up there with Favre and Elway, maybe not quite there but close. Daunte Culpepper is up there with them, Byron Leftwich can zip the ball but he has a really, really long, slow release. Other than that I don't know if I could say any other current NFL QBs have an arm as strong as David Carr'sI'd agree with Huge too. People just make narrow arguments trying to knock him. Arm strength is overrated too. It's great to have a cannon arm but guys like Green, Hassleback and Pennington have done just fine without one. I'd take all the guys I just listed and their weaker arms over Carr if all players are healthy, and Young's arm isn't weaker than those players arms.

Huge
01-19-2006, 02:00 PM
Not many people will agree with you that Vince has great zip on the ball, go ask some pro scouts if you want, I have done that and they agree with my assessment, and the guy on ESPN radio was the one that said that about Vince having a "long" arm and not a particularly strong one and can't throw a real zip pass. David Carr's arm strength is up there with Favre and Elway, maybe not quite there but close. Daunte Culpepper is up there with them, Byron Leftwich can zip the ball but he has a really, really long, slow release. Other than that I don't know if I could say any other current NFL QBs have an arm as strong as David Carr's
Here's what one pro scout had to say. (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=247380#post247380)

In case you couldn't find what I'm talking about:
"Vince is a tremendous athlete and a great competitor. He surprised me on just how accurate he is throwing the ball over the middle. To be honest he is a more accurate passer than Daunte Culpepper, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb or Mike Vick were when they came out of college and those are the quarterbacks most people compare him to. He’s a very smart football player also. You saw that he made the hot reads when they tried to blitz him, and he dumped the ball off correctly to the back or the tight end. Vince is a very strong guy and he has the arm strength to make all the throws downfield. (USC coach) Pete Carroll threw every defense in the world at him, and he made good on almost every throw. You could clearly see that he grew in stature as a passer all season long. You don’t lead the NCAA in passing efficiency by not being a good passer and having good touch. The thing that jumps out at you is that he is not rifling the ball like a bullet on the shorter throws, but instead he is putting good touch and a tight spiral on those throws. When he needs to put some real steam on the ball he can do that also."
Apparently that's one pro scout that would disagree with your assessment. Also, you'll find a few more clips of Vince under center from that link. These weren't "highlight clips"...just simple plays from the '05 Rose Bowl. Watching him take the snap from under center leads me to believe him having to "make adjustments" to it at the next level will be no different than a QB that worked primarily under center having to make adjustments to running out of the shotgun. It's a non-issue in my book.

And you'll have to forgive me if I'm not blown away by "the guy on ESPN radio". Was it Collin Cowherd?
People just make narrow arguments trying to knock him. Arm strength is overrated too. It's great to have a cannon arm but guys like Green, Hassleback and Pennington have done just fine without one. I'd take all the guys I just listed and their weaker arms over Carr if all players are healthy, and Young's arm isn't weaker than those players arms.
Boom, goes the dynamite.

MorKnolle
01-19-2006, 02:50 PM
I'd agree with Huge too. People just make narrow arguments trying to knock him. Arm strength is overrated too. It's great to have a cannon arm but guys like Green, Hassleback and Pennington have done just fine without one. I'd take all the guys I just listed and their weaker arms over Carr if all players are healthy, and Young's arm isn't weaker than those players arms.

Having a very strong arm indeed is not essential but it adds another dimension to their passing game as they can make some throws that other QBs cannot make. Hasselbeck, Green, and Pennington have very accurate arms so they can get away with not having as strong of an arm, but they are much more accurate and complete QBs than Vince is right now (at this moment Pennington doesn't have a shoulder he can throw with so he doesn't make a great argument there). Of course it's a matter of your opinion on what you think is most valuable in a QB, but I'd prefer Carr's mobility and a cannon arm to Vince's mobility and weaker arm, all other things being equal, but again that's my opinion and I think Carr is a perfectly capable QB while you obviously do not.

Apparently that's one pro scout that would disagree with your assessment. Also, you'll find a few more clips of Vince under center from that link. These weren't "highlight clips"...just simple plays from the '05 Rose Bowl. Watching him take the snap from under center leads me to believe him having to "make adjustments" to it at the next level will be no different than a QB that worked primarily under center having to make adjustments to running out of the shotgun. It's a non-issue in my book.

That didn't really disagree with my argument about him not having as strong of an arm as many QBs, and all of the scouts I've actually talked to agree with my point on that. Of course since you are in favor of Vince Young his weaknesses are a non-issue in your mind, whereas I like Carr more than Vince so to me naturally the things that Carr is weaker at than Vince (not many things at this moment I might add) are not much if any kind of issue to me. Another point on those short throws, when Carr makes the dump offs to Domanick Davis, it's because he's a lousy QB, makes bad decisions, can't read a defense, and he's chastised by the fans and local media, but when Vince does it, it's because it's the "smart play" and that's what the defense is giving him, and he's praised for being an intelligent QB.

Glacier
01-19-2006, 02:51 PM
Having a very strong arm indeed is not essential but it adds another dimension to their passing game as they can make some throws that other QBs cannot make. Of course it's a matter of your opinion on what you think is most valuable in a QB, but I'd prefer Carr's mobility and a cannon arm to Vince's mobility and weaker arm, all other things being equal, but again that's my opinion and I think Carr is a perfectly capable QB while you obviously do not.

don't know if you folks remember back when it was the Peyton Manning vs Ryan leaf debates but...the knock on Peyton Manning was that his arm strength was in question. We all know how that turned out. go go pro scouts!

Huge
01-19-2006, 06:08 PM
That didn't really disagree with my argument about him not having as strong of an arm as many QBs, and all of the scouts I've actually talked to agree with my point on that.
Your arguement was that Vince didn't have much zip in his arm. See...
Not many people will agree with you that Vince has great zip on the ball, go ask some pro scouts if you want, I have done that and they agree with my assessment, and the guy on ESPN radio was the one that said that about Vince having a "long" arm and not a particularly strong one and can't throw a real zip pass.
You felt justified in this opinion because it was shared by the "ESPN radio guy" (I'd still really like to know who this guy is).

Compared to Elway and Favre, no, Vince doesn't have much zip on the ball. Compared to most QB's, he's got enough.

And yes, we disagree on the length of his delivery as well. See this clip (http://jcdenton.unmatchedmedia.com/UTvUM04-TonyJeffrey-Catch(DivX).avi) as an example of why I disagree.

After watching that, you really think he has a long delivery? If so, obviously we have differing opinions as to what a long/short delivery is.

Of course since you are in favor of Vince Young his weaknesses are a non-issue in your mind, whereas I like Carr more than Vince so to me naturally the things that Carr is weaker at than Vince (not many things at this moment I might add) are not much if any kind of issue to me. Another point on those short throws, when Carr makes the dump offs to Domanick Davis, it's because he's a lousy QB, makes bad decisions, can't read a defense, and he's chastised by the fans and local media, but when Vince does it, it's because it's the "smart play" and that's what the defense is giving him, and he's praised for being an intelligent QB.
Am I (in favor of Young)? If by "in favor" you mean ahead of Carr...then yes, I am. But that doesn't have anything to do with what we've discussed in this thread. IMO, Carr is a fine QB as well. But I think we've seen the best from Carr that we're going to see. Vince brings the intangibles to the table that Carr never will because it's not something that you just pick up through experience or training camp. But that's just me.

As far as "in favor" of the Texans drafting Vince, please point out to where I've said this. Yes I think it'd be a good move but I've repeatedly stated that I'm in favor of them trading down more than anything.

Stick with Carr and the Texans can be a good team down the road.
Go with Young and the Texans will struggle at start but will have the chance to become a great team down the road.

That's just my opinion.

TheOgre
01-19-2006, 06:18 PM
Regardless of who we take, I think this team is going to be exciting. My personal preference is to trade down, but I think that has close to a zero chance of happening. One thing is for sure, this team will be even more in the limelight after the Super Bowl and before The Draft.

thunderkyss
01-19-2006, 06:36 PM
Sorry, but I hadn't seen this.

Originally Posted by Joe Clark
"Vince is a tremendous athlete and a great competitor. He surprised me on just how accurate he is throwing the ball over the middle. To be honest he is a more accurate passer than Daunte Culpepper, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb or Mike Vick were when they came out of college and those are the quarterbacks most people compare him to. He’s a very smart football player also. You saw that he made the hot reads when they tried to blitz him, and he dumped the ball off correctly to the back or the tight end. Vince is a very strong guy and he has the arm strength to make all the throws downfield. (USC coach) Pete Carroll threw every defense in the world at him, and he made good on almost every throw. You could clearly see that he grew in stature as a passer all season long. You don’t lead the NCAA in passing efficiency by not being a good passer and having good touch. The thing that jumps out at you is that he is not rifling the ball like a bullet on the shorter throws, but instead he is putting good touch and a tight spiral on those throws. When he needs to put some real steam on the ball he can do that also."

I've got to confess I'm truly in love... I can't hide it anymore....

MorKnolle
01-19-2006, 10:18 PM
You felt justified in this opinion because it was shared by the "ESPN radio guy" (I'd still really like to know who this guy is).

Compared to Elway and Favre, no, Vince doesn't have much zip on the ball. Compared to most QB's, he's got enough.


This was my opinion and I feel that I am correct on it alone, and the pro scouts I have personally talked to share this view, I brought up the ESPN radio guy because of the terminology he used to describe Vince's throw.

And yes, we disagree on the length of his delivery as well. See this clip (http://jcdenton.unmatchedmedia.com/UTvUM04-TonyJeffrey-Catch(DivX).avi) as an example of why I disagree.

After watching that, you really think he has a long delivery? If so, obviously we have differing opinions as to what a long/short delivery is.


The link didn't work properly so I couldn't see the video, but yes I still don't think he has a quick release, it's not as slow as someone like Byron Leftwich, but I would not call it a quick release either.

Am I (in favor of Young)? If by "in favor" you mean ahead of Carr...then yes, I am. But that doesn't have anything to do with what we've discussed in this thread. IMO, Carr is a fine QB as well. But I think we've seen the best from Carr that we're going to see. Vince brings the intangibles to the table that Carr never will because it's not something that you just pick up through experience or training camp. But that's just me.

As far as "in favor" of the Texans drafting Vince, please point out to where I've said this. Yes I think it'd be a good move but I've repeatedly stated that I'm in favor of them trading down more than anything.

Stick with Carr and the Texans can be a good team down the road.
Go with Young and the Texans will struggle at start but will have the chance to become a great team down the road.

That's just my opinion.

You have definitely voiced your displeasure with David Carr. You had said that you didn't think adjusting to being under center would be an issue, and I was saying that naturally because you like Vince Young more than David Carr that obviously you think Vince's deficiencies compared to Carr are not a big deal, similarly since I prefer David Carr to Vince Young I must believe that David's deficiencies compared to Young are not of as much consequence. That's just the way our opinions differ.

I've got to confess I'm truly in love... I can't hide it anymore....


Ummmmm... this is a little scary and you should look into getting that situation fixed.

Huge
01-20-2006, 07:13 AM
Right click on the link and select "Open in a new window". It should be cool then.

But again, it'll come down to us having differing opinions to what a long delivery is. 'Cause I guarantee nobody will ever convince me that the amount of time it takes for the ball to leave his hand will even remotely be considered an issue.

MorKnolle
01-20-2006, 08:55 AM
Right click on the link and select "Open in a new window". It should be cool then.

But again, it'll come down to us having differing opinions to what a long delivery is. 'Cause I guarantee nobody will ever convince me that the amount of time it takes for the ball to leave his hand will even remotely be considered an issue.

I don't think it will be that big of an issue, but someone had said he had a really fast release which he doesn't. We will disagree on this subject, and my last couple posts I was trying to point out that on this argument, or for the Bush vs. Domanick Davis or any other player comparisons you can find, obviously anyone that supports one player over another is either going to look over their favored player's weaknesses or else downgrade the importance of those deficiencies in their mind, and I was just pointing out that neither one of us were necessarily right on all our points, just that it was a difference of opinion and when those exist these kind of arguments will surface. I have seen it on several other places on the message board, especially either in the Vince Young or Reggie Bush arguments where people disagree and the opposing side is blatantly wrong and therefore stupid because they disagree on similar types of player weaknesses, and anyone supporting Bush will downgrade his durability or lack of size questions as being inconsequential while Vince supporters downgrade the importance of any of his deficiencies. Some people are stubborn enough that they refuse to accept any opposing argument at all, I am not dead-set on any one player and try to present more of an objective view on all of them, both my opinions and any more knowledgeable people that I talk to, and from there who I think would fit the team best, rather than being in love with a certain player like a few people on this board (I've seen a couple disturbing posts like that) and fighting that agenda to the death. At this point in time, no one is really proved to be wrong or right, they just have different opinions and we'll have to wait a couple years to see how things turn out, and all that the players have "proven" thus far is in their statistics in college.

Big B Texan Fan
01-20-2006, 10:00 AM
Sorry, but I hadn't seen this.


I've got to confess I'm truly in love... I can't hide it anymore....
Wait until you find the comparisons to McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, S. Young, and other dual threat QB's last season in college vs V. Youngs last season in college. It'll blow your mind. Texans Chick did the background work on that, I'll try to find it, if anybody knows where it is can you plz attach it to this qoute.

MorKnolle
01-20-2006, 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by Joe Clark
"Vince is a tremendous athlete and a great competitor. He surprised me on just how accurate he is throwing the ball over the middle. To be honest he is a more accurate passer than Daunte Culpepper, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb or Mike Vick were when they came out of college and those are the quarterbacks most people compare him to. Hes a very smart football player also. You saw that he made the hot reads when they tried to blitz him, and he dumped the ball off correctly to the back or the tight end. Vince is a very strong guy and he has the arm strength to make all the throws downfield. (USC coach) Pete Carroll threw every defense in the world at him, and he made good on almost every throw. You could clearly see that he grew in stature as a passer all season long. You dont lead the NCAA in passing efficiency by not being a good passer and having good touch. The thing that jumps out at you is that he is not rifling the ball like a bullet on the shorter throws, but instead he is putting good touch and a tight spiral on those throws. When he needs to put some real steam on the ball he can do that also."

Just an FYI, saying he's as accurate or more accurate than Culpepper, McNabb, McNair, or Vick at this stage is not saying that much, none of them are especially accurate passers to this day other than McNair. I'm not bashing Vince but this quote isn't really saying that much with that statement, those are all athletic scrambling QBs (or at least they all used to be, some still are) and had strong arms, but were never very accurate passers. I still find it amusing that people complained that David Carr would look to dump the ball off to his RBs too much but when Vince dumps it off to his RBs or TEs (remember we had no TEs until Rivers finally got a bit of a chance the last couple games) that he made the "correct reads" and all that stuff. I still don't agree with the statement about him having the arm strength to make all the downfield throws, his arm physically is pretty strong but due to his mechanics his arm strength on his throws is not anywhere near the elite group and he does tend to go with the floating ball ("touch pass" as some people call it) that will generally get knocked down or intercepted with NFL athletes on the field. Again as I've pointed out with my last several posts in this thread, that is my opinion on him, and obviously anyone that supports him (and is in love with him in a couple cases) over David Carr is going to either overlook or downplay the significance of his deficiencies like this while I'll tend to, if anything, exaggerate the importance of them a little bit because I do not see him as being the answer for this team, so that's my opinion and you can agree or disagree with it all you want because you're entitled to your opinions.

thunderkyss
01-20-2006, 11:59 AM
Just an FYI, saying he's as accurate or more accurate than Culpepper, McNabb, McNair, or Vick at this stage is not saying that much, none of them are especially accurate passers to this day other than McNair. I'm not bashing Vince but this quote isn't really saying that much with that statement, those are all athletic scrambling QBs (or at least they all used to be, some still are) and had strong arms, but were never very accurate passers.
That's fine.... and you're right for the most part. Those guys, with the exclusion of Vick, put up some pretty wild numbers, despite their accuracy, and for the most part, with second tier Recievers. Of course, they all suffered at different times in their career, for whatever reason(I have a theory), but when they are in the game, and on their game, they make for some exciting football, win or loose.
I still find it amusing that people complained that David Carr would look to dump the ball off to his RBs too much but when Vince dumps it off to his RBs or TEs (remember we had no TEs until Rivers finally got a bit of a chance the last couple games) that he made the "correct reads" and all that stuff.
The key words are in Bold letters
I still don't agree with the statement about him having the arm strength to make all the downfield throws, his arm physically is pretty strong but due to his mechanics his arm strength on his throws is not anywhere near the elite group and he does tend to go with the floating ball ("touch pass" as some people call it) that will generally get knocked down or intercepted with NFL athletes on the field.
On this one, I kinda agree. He does have the tendancy to float the ball more than I'd like, but on short passes just as much as on the long and the out passes.... I'm not saying we should retire his number just yet, only that his mobility and ability to make plays on the run will add a dimension to his game, that would be different from Carr's, & I honestly believe in the long run, he will have the better career.
Again as I've pointed out with my last several posts in this thread, that is my opinion on him, and obviously anyone that supports him (and is in love with him in a couple cases) over David Carr is going to either overlook or downplay the significance of his deficiencies like this while I'll tend to, if anything, exaggerate the importance of them a little bit because I do not see him as being the answer for this team, so that's my opinion and you can agree or disagree with it all you want because you're entitled to your opinions.
MorKnolle....... in all honesty, I enjoy your posts... you've always got sound arguments, and you sound like you know what you are talking about. But like you said, because of some of your opinions, and mine, I can look at those same arguments, and come up with different conclusions. But I must admit, I don't know where you stand on the Reggie Situation. If your opinion is that we should trade down, save some money, and build on what we already have..... I can respect that, and do. But if you're one of those we need to take Bush(BPA) folks, I just can't understand that thinking..... Nor can I understand you thinking Drafting Vince is any less advantageous than drafting Reggie...

tulexan
01-20-2006, 12:07 PM
Wait until you find the comparisons to McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, S. Young, and other dual threat QB's last season in college vs V. Youngs last season in college. It'll blow your mind. Texans Chick did the background work on that, I'll try to find it, if anybody knows where it is can you plz attach it to this qoute.


Culpepper, Vick, and S. Young also didn't have the talent that Vince has around him. McNabb had Marvin Harrison, but that is about it. Texas has one of the best recruiting classes year in and year out. Vick played at VT before they were the power house that they are now, McNabb played at Syracuse, Culpepper played at Central Florida, and Steve Young played at BYU. None of those teams probably had anywhere near the talent that Vince had around him (again except Marvin Harrison).

MorKnolle
01-20-2006, 12:26 PM
Thunderkyss, as you said I can almost always respect your posts. We often disagree on opinions but you at least usually have some sound reasoning and good evidence to back up your opinions so I can respect them while disagreeing with them. I try to post things with, for the most part, an objective opinion and observation on things and then draw my conclusions from that, rather than having an agenda that I want to promote and stating my view and then a bunch of gibberish that "supports" that view as a few people on these boards do, but anyone (and they are generally in the majority of people on here) that presents a well-thought out case and has some kind of decent reasoning behind it I can respect and I feel that those kinds of posts back and forth can provide a useful dialogue between many people and are benficial to the boards, although there are people that keep making repetitive, mindless posts that clearly show they want and will only accept one view on things and anyone that disagrees must be stupid, and those kinds of people are bothersome, but they are few and far between on those type of people.

As for the Reggie/Vince issue, my preference and what I truly believe would be the best for the overall team would be to trade down if we can get a reasonable trade and make intelligent use of those extra picks and/or veteran players we get in exchange. However, if we can't get a decent trade or decide to stay at the #1 anyway, I personally think it would be better for the team to take Reggie Bush than Vince Young, and from the people I've talked to that have some sort of knowledge on it I think that's what they will do if they stay at #1. I am hoping we can get a couple good trade offers to choose from and maybe even a 2nd trade down option after that, but so many things remain to be seen on who our coaches are, what systems they are going to run, how well they think our current guys fit in their system, what free agents will be available and who we can bring in, and finally, how all the guys look at the combine and workouts. That said, I have presented my opinion as it is now, but there are 3 months left before the draft and a whole lot of uncertainties to be answered before then and I'm always open to changing my opinions if I see good reason to, and for now I plan to enjoy the remaining two weeks of the NFL playoffs and watch some good football, then watch Mathis win the fastest man race at the Pro Bowl.

thunderkyss
01-20-2006, 12:43 PM
I try to post things with, for the most part, an objective opinion and observation on things and then draw my conclusions from that, rather than having an agenda that I want to promote and stating my view and then a bunch of gibberish that "supports" that view as a few people on these boards do....
Well I'll admit, I've got an agenda. I think the Texans were looking to draft Reggie to appease the public. I didn't believe it, till I heard Casserly say something to that effect recently on TV. I flipped. I started preaching the trade down gospel. Of course that changed when Vince declared for this years draft. I still think the Texans should trade down, and you won't see me argue that point. But anytime I can put my two cents in for Vince over Bush, I'm there.


As for the Reggie/Vince issue, my preference and what I truly believe would be the best for the overall team would be to trade down if we can get a reasonable trade and make intelligent use of those extra picks and/or veteran players we get in exchange. However, if we can't get a decent trade or decide to stay at the #1 anyway, I personally think it would be better for the team to take Reggie Bush than Vince Young, and from the people I've talked to that have some sort of knowledge on it I think that's what they will do if they stay at #1. I am hoping we can get a couple good trade offers to choose from and maybe even a 2nd trade down option after that, but so many things remain to be seen on who our coaches are, what systems they are going to run, how well they think our current guys fit in their system, what free agents will be available and who we can bring in, and finally, how all the guys look at the combine and workouts. That said, I have presented my opinion as it is now, but there are 3 months left before the draft and a whole lot of uncertainties to be answered before then and I'm always open to changing my opinions if I see good reason to, and for now I plan to enjoy the remaining two weeks of the NFL playoffs and watch some good football, then watch Mathis win the fastest man race at the Pro Bowl.

Okay, for the most part we are on the same page....... but why?? Why would it be better for the team to take Bush?? That's what I just can't see.. I'm going through old posts as well as trying to stay current, but I have yet to see anything that looks like a good argument for taking Bush over Vince. I'm not knocking Bush.... not at all. But I like our RB situation much more than I like our QB situation.

MorKnolle
01-20-2006, 12:55 PM
Well I'll admit, I've got an agenda. I think the Texans were looking to draft Reggie to appease the public. I didn't believe it, till I heard Casserly say something to that effect recently on TV. I flipped. I started preaching the trade down gospel. Of course that changed when Vince declared for this years draft. I still think the Texans should trade down, and you won't see me argue that point. But anytime I can put my two cents in for Vince over Bush, I'm there.

Okay, for the most part we are on the same page....... but why?? Why would it be better for the team to take Bush?? That's what I just can't see.. I'm going through old posts as well as trying to stay current, but I have yet to see anything that looks like a good argument for taking Bush over Vince. I'm not knocking Bush.... not at all. But I like our RB situation much more than I like our QB situation.

I'll pull this from a thread I just posted it on:

My opinion and preference at this moment would be Leinart over Young, but as you said those are our opinions. We do not need to start this team from scratch. Yes we had the worst record in the league this year, but we had a bad coaching staff that is now gone and we have several good people on the roster to continue building around. I think David is among those good players and I do not see a reason to replace him, especially with a 2 year project like Vince Young. Obviously you think Carr needs to be replaced but I do not. I also like Domanick Davis, that's why I think our offense is pretty solid with the exception of the OL and would prefer to see us trade down, but at the same time adding Bush into the talent we have and bringing in another playmaker that can play some RB and a lot of WR would be beneficial to our offense and add something to it in my opinion. Drafting Vince and sitting him on the bench for a couple years while he develops and then replacing Carr with him n my opinion does not add anything to the offense and therefore would not be an efficient use of the #1 pick. Drafting Vince will take 2 years to decide if he was worth it and to see if he really does add anything by replacing Carr (which I don't see him adding much if anything), while drafting Bush immediately adds another playmaker that can play some RB and some WR and be on the field almost every snap, so I can at least see how he adds something to the team that we don't currently have, and he adds it immediately rather than waiting a couple years to see if he can actually step in and bring something to the table. That's my view, my opinion on the situation and that's why I think we should draft Bush if we're not going to trade down.


That's how I see the situation and why I think Bush would be a better pick than Vince, again that's my opinion. If I may ask, why is it you think Vince would be a better option than Bush assuming we do stay at #1?

thunderkyss
01-20-2006, 02:17 PM
I'll pull this from a thread I just posted it on:


That's how I see the situation and why I think Bush would be a better pick than Vince, again that's my opinion. If I may ask, why is it you think Vince would be a better option than Bush assuming we do stay at #1?


I answered in that other thread.

swtbound07
01-20-2006, 02:27 PM
Culpepper, Vick, and S. Young also didn't have the talent that Vince has around him. McNabb had Marvin Harrison, but that is about it. Texas has one of the best recruiting classes year in and year out. Vick played at VT before they were the power house that they are now, McNabb played at Syracuse, Culpepper played at Central Florida, and Steve Young played at BYU. None of those teams probably had anywhere near the talent that Vince had around him (again except Marvin Harrison).


Seriously? Vince Young was surrounded by offensive talent? Really? Ramonce Taylor....not exactly a 5 star lock prospect. If you want to talk surrounded by talent, talk matt leinart....bush, lendale white, mike williams, steve smith....geez, he was the one bathing in 1st round draft picks

AstroTexan
01-20-2006, 02:41 PM
Seriously? Vince Young was surrounded by offensive talent? Really? Ramonce Taylor....not exactly a 5 star lock prospect. If you want to talk surrounded by talent, talk matt leinart....bush, lendale white, mike williams, steve smith....geez, he was the one bathing in 1st round draft picks

While you or many other people for that matter may not think he was surrounded by offensive talent, his offensive line is as good as the Texans was this year. If there is a package deal there, there is no way to pass on it.

swtbound07
01-20-2006, 02:47 PM
While you or many other people for that matter may not think he was surrounded by offensive talent, his offensive line is as good as the Texans was this year. If there is a package deal there, there is no way to pass on it.


offensive line good, i will buy. Offensive skill position talent i wont.

Honoring Earl 34
01-20-2006, 02:59 PM
:redtowel: You can't take anything away from Vince Young he played a big game on a huge stage and nailed it . Saying he had a great team is pointing out the obvious , thats why they were playing for the championship .