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View Full Version : Enough Young/Bush, the SMART pick....


Chawky1
01-17-2006, 10:26 AM
Being an outsider affords me an unbiased view of your situation. Call me crazy, call this wild, BUT I think the Texans need to trade down out of the number one spot. The Texans have quite possibly the worst offensive line I have ever seen in the history of football. I give Carr tons of credit for even putting on his helmet every week, and this goes for underappreciated DD as well. Those guys get hammered game after game but still look to play with a lot of fire. With that said, I think you have an above average set of three core players upon which to build a team (Carr, DD, AJ). What you need is PROTECTION. Ok, there are other holes, quite a few even, but without a line you could have Moss, Harrison, Holt, Alexander, James, or whatever skill player you want to plug in and it wouldnt make a difference. Moving down to #4 or #5 would still get you the best tackle in the draft, his name escapes me at the moment, and probably that teams second round pick as well. Take the picks and fill two more slots on the line or simply go BPA if the line talent doesnt warrant it. The only reason the Seahawks are any good is their offensive line. I don't think they have any amazing blue chip skill players, in fact Alexander is quite average. For the WCO I would much rather save the money and have someone like DD on the Seahawks since he is amazing in the flat and has great hands. The entire offense is built around the offense line and you are in dire need of one.

Blake
01-17-2006, 10:53 AM
Cheers Chawky.

I think the trade down is a smart move. But giving up a chance to take Young, or Bush isnt easy.

Plus we have to find a trading parter, who will give up the farm for one of these players, that is not too far down.

Grid
01-17-2006, 11:05 AM
The draft isnt just deep in the top 10.. its deep through the first three rounds.

I was of the opinion that Bush was our best bet, and a trade down was an alright secondary scenario. After a few posts lately, ive been swayed to the idea that the proper coaching staff (Kubiak and company) can put up 2000 yards with our existing RBs.. and that trading down would give us the opportunity to make some key acquistions.

Depth is important to a winning team.. and this draft gives us the chance to build alot of depth.. as well as address the weaknesses we have in the trenches. I daresay that in this draft, we can expect the vast majority of our first round picks to either become starters, or become quality depth. We could trade down.. get another playmaker on defense in the first.. and then address our problems in the Oline and Dline, where we are weakest..and strength is most important.

So im with ya.. Trade down. Or take Reggie :)..but prefferably trade down.

Spoda
01-17-2006, 11:35 AM
wow i have been hyping vince young for like a week now trying to annoy all the vincetians...but where are they now? i guess they just blew up the board for a week after the vince bowl and vinceonal vinceaship the vixas vincehorns won






please trade down mr kubiak..."charlie!! shut up!!! you're lucky to have a job..now get me some coffee"

Hookem Horns
01-17-2006, 11:39 AM
The Texans have quite possibly the worst offensive line I have ever seen in the history of football.

Honestly, we don't know what we have as an offensive line. Our coaching has been bad and they play in front of a QB that is next to impossible to block for. Once we have good coaching in place and a competent QB we will then be able to evaluate our offensive line.

chuckm
01-17-2006, 12:29 PM
and they play in front of a QB that is next to impossible to block for.

will you explain this please?

Meloy
01-17-2006, 01:16 PM
The draft isnt just deep in the top 10.. its deep through the first three rounds.

I was of the opinion that Bush was our best bet, and a trade down was an alright secondary scenario. After a few posts lately, ive been swayed to the idea that the proper coaching staff (Kubiak and company) can put up 2000 yards with our existing RBs.. and that trading down would give us the opportunity to make some key acquistions.

Depth is important to a winning team.. and this draft gives us the chance to build alot of depth.. as well as address the weaknesses we have in the trenches. I daresay that in this draft, we can expect the vast majority of our first round picks to either become starters, or become quality depth. We could trade down.. get another playmaker on defense in the first.. and then address our problems in the Oline and Dline, where we are weakest..and strength is most important.

So im with ya.. Trade down. Or take Reggie :)..but prefferably trade down.

I had same feelings: Bush then Young. I think Jet's would give us 4th pick, their 3rd round and John Abraham. Jets would revive their fans with the Heisman winner. Bush should then send 1/3 of endorsements to McNair. We select OT D'brickashaw Ferguson(saving millions & anchoring LT for 10-12 years) Carr would do well under Kubiack ala "snake"'s resurrection plus less pressure with Ferguson @ LT & Pitts @ LG. RB's would prob get 2,600+ including passes. Wells would prob sign for less to play in that offense for one year then hit Free Agency in 07. We would then have the 33rd pick and three early picks in 3rd round. We add a starting LT, a starter with 2nd round pick, 3 possible starters are at least good back ups (You better shine Casserly!) in third round and the defensive end we've been missing with Abraham. The 4th round, I'd select a bruising F/B good for 3yds inside the ten. Even if he can't get on the field @ any other time. 5th round:Martin Nance w/r from Ohio. 6'5" 200+lbs BUT 4.3 in 40. How 'bout that inside the 20? He "loves to fight for the ball." or Max Jean Gilles Georgia OT 6'4" 341 with "mean streak" that dominates the OLine. :redtowel:

We cut (or he settles for 2 million) McKinney, cut Moran Norris, Coleman, Hollings, Buchannon & Bryan Pittman (come on! no one else can deep snap?). We sign Reggie Wayne (maybe better than A.J.) & let Gafney go. With cap @ $15m (optimistically) we can sign Wayne, Abraham, our draft picks and Wells. I'd let Ramone Walker vaya con Dios. We should still have enough for one more free agent, Maybe Bentley from Saints? Whooee! Move over Charley C.

MorKnolle
01-17-2006, 02:05 PM
I had same feelings: Bush then Young. I think Jet's would give us 4th pick, their 3rd round and John Abraham. Jets would revive their fans with the Heisman winner. Bush should then send 1/3 of endorsements to McNair. We select OT D'brickashaw Ferguson(saving millions & anchoring LT for 10-12 years) Carr would do well under Kubiack ala "snake"'s resurrection plus less pressure with Ferguson @ LT & Pitts @ LG. RB's would prob get 2,600+ including passes. Wells would prob sign for less to play in that offense for one year then hit Free Agency in 07. We would then have the 33rd pick and three early picks in 3rd round. We add a starting LT, a starter with 2nd round pick, 3 possible starters are at least good back ups (You better shine Casserly!) in third round and the defensive end we've been missing with Abraham. The 4th round, I'd select a bruising F/B good for 3yds inside the ten. Even if he can't get on the field @ any other time. 5th round:Martin Nance w/r from Ohio. 6'5" 200+lbs BUT 4.3 in 40. How 'bout that inside the 20? He "loves to fight for the ball." or Max Jean Gilles Georgia OT 6'4" 341 with "mean streak" that dominates the OLine. :redtowel:

We cut (or he settles for 2 million) McKinney, cut Moran Norris, Coleman, Hollings, Buchannon & Bryan Pittman (come on! no one else can deep snap?). We sign Reggie Wayne (maybe better than A.J.) & let Gafney go. With cap @ $15m (optimistically) we can sign Wayne, Abraham, our draft picks and Wells. I'd let Ramone Walker vaya con Dios. We should still have enough for one more free agent, Maybe Bentley from Saints? Whooee! Move over Charley C.

I could find a couple OL I'd rather have than Ferguson (Eric Winston for sure) that will actually help out the running game, and if we were to get Ferguson, Pitts should go to RT, not LG. I do like trading with the Jets and picking up John Abraham, but I think we can get more than just him and their 3rd round pick for it (we should be able to add next year's 1st rounder as well). It would be a waste to pick a FB in the draft, Norris is a good blocker and special teams player, and if you want a short yardage, pounding RB, that's what Wells should be for. Pittman is fine as a long snapper, every team needs one and he's not costing anything anyways, but other than him, Gaff, and Norris I agree with all your suggested drops. I really doubt Reggie Wayne comes here if he leaves the Colts, I see him going to the Eagles, plus we'd have to overpay him and he's not at all better than A.J. probably not much better than Gaffney other than he's faster. Bentley should be a top priority in the offseason. I don't know how well Max Jean-Gilles will work if we're staying in zone blocking, Davin Joseph would be a much better pickup.

eclem5
01-17-2006, 02:27 PM
Being an outsider affords me an unbiased view of your situation. Call me crazy, call this wild, BUT I think the Texans need to trade down out of the number one spot. The Texans have quite possibly the worst offensive line I have ever seen in the history of football. I give Carr tons of credit for even putting on his helmet every week, and this goes for underappreciated DD as well. Those guys get hammered game after game but still look to play with a lot of fire. With that said, I think you have an above average set of three core players upon which to build a team (Carr, DD, AJ). What you need is PROTECTION. Ok, there are other holes, quite a few even, but without a line you could have Moss, Harrison, Holt, Alexander, James, or whatever skill player you want to plug in and it wouldnt make a difference. Moving down to #4 or #5 would still get you the best tackle in the draft, his name escapes me at the moment, and probably that teams second round pick as well. Take the picks and fill two more slots on the line or simply go BPA if the line talent doesnt warrant it. The only reason the Seahawks are any good is their offensive line. I don't think they have any amazing blue chip skill players, in fact Alexander is quite average. For the WCO I would much rather save the money and have someone like DD on the Seahawks since he is amazing in the flat and has great hands. The entire offense is built around the offense line and you are in dire need of one.

First of all don't fool yourself. Seahawks are in a terrible division (2nd worst in NFL) in the sorry NFC. Seahawks also won a lot of close games. You need to concentrate on Carolina Mister

eclem5
01-17-2006, 02:35 PM
You are forgetting one thing Carr never had the collegiate career of Jake Plummer or Vince Young. I would think Carr is more like Brian Griese who Kubiak couldn't do anything with. I would take Vince, Franchise Carr use 2nd and third pick for OL as well as free agency. Bottom line the Texans wont be good for 2-3 years anyway. It would take Carr that long to get the new offense seeing that he really didn't get the last offense. Did you watch any of the games?

MorKnolle
01-17-2006, 02:41 PM
You are forgetting one thing Carr never had the collegiate career of Jake Plummer or Vince Young. I would think Carr is more like Brian Griese who Kubiak couldn't do anything with. I would take Vince, Franchise Carr use 2nd and third pick for OL as well as free agency. Bottom line the Texans wont be good for 2-3 years anyway. It would take Carr that long to get the new offense seeing that he really didn't get the last offense. Did you watch any of the games?

I don't know what Plummer's college stats are like, but from a passing standpoint Carr far out performed Vince Young during his college career (yes Vince had more rushing yards and won a championship with a far superior team, but Carr's passing stats were better). I was at every one of the games this year, and no one got our offense, including the coaches I think. It was the biggest sham of an offense I've ever seen in football, and it won't take Carr 3 years to learn the new offense, and if it does it would take Vince even longer. This team is not 3 years away from being good, if we have an intelligent offseason with the draft and free agents and barring any catastrophic injury issues again, we should be able to get back to at least 7-8 wins next season and be competing for the playoffs by2007.

Chawky1
01-17-2006, 02:46 PM
First of all don't fool yourself. Seahawks are in a terrible division (2nd worst in NFL) in the sorry NFC. Seahawks also won a lot of close games. You need to concentrate on Carolina Mister

You cannot pick what division you play in. Evidently you have bought into all the east coast media hype or something about strength of schedule and ability of this team. It is the upper echelon teams that win those close games. There really are no easy games in the NFL, not even when we played the Texans this past year :tomato: I digress, my main point of mentioning the Seahawks was what a superior offensive line will do for a team. As I said myself, the Seahawks are not a blue chip laden super team of super stars with these amazing physical gifts. They field a team of solid, though not necessarily spectacular players. Having watched every single game of theirs ever since the invention of Sunday ticket way back when (I live on the east coast), I can say they are successful due to their offensive line play. Jones = perennial pro-bowler, Hutchinson = See Jones, Tobeck = Above average/pro-bowl alternate/outplayed the #1 Center in the draft who we drafted this year to keep his starting job, Gray = Versatile, lunch pail guy, weak link of line but good enough, Locklear = Young stud, became a full time starter this year and has not looked back. They have the best left side of the offensive line in the entire NFL, and a top 3 O-line in the NFL when you consider the entire line. My point was that the offense is built upon a foundation, the O-line is this foundation. The Texans have very good skill players, but a terrible O-line. As for the Carolina comment, they are the only team in the NFC that scared me. I would have rathered play Tampa, NY, Chi, Wash, basically anyone in the NFC other than Carolina. With Indy out, however, if the Seahawks can beat Carolina, I think they pull out their first SB win.

BeerFan
01-17-2006, 02:54 PM
^ i can't believe you said Shawn Alexander is average. haha.

Chawky1
01-17-2006, 03:01 PM
^ i can't believe you said Shawn Alexander is average. haha.

All right all right, above average. Mark my words, IF he leaves and plays in another offense behind a different offensive line, there will be a substantial drop off in production. I think DD in the Seahawk offense, behind that O-line is a good 1,800 yard (combined yardage) back. I could see him easily doing 1300 on the ground with another 500 through the air. Their O-line is THAT good. I think a lot of Alexanders talent and gawdy numbers are a product of his line. Next year will tell the tale. If you take any top 15, top 20 NFL back and put him behind that line, I would bet they could approach Alexander numbers. Put Tomlinson back there and every record would be broken.

The Preacher
01-17-2006, 03:22 PM
Yes we need to trade down, get an o-line and revamped defense, but I still don't think they'll do it. :cool: Forget this is their once in a lifetime chance to do it. Just a bad feeling. I hope when they say they need playmakers they mean defensively.

TheOgre
01-17-2006, 04:02 PM
The combination of LT Jones, LG Hutchinson, and FB Mack Strong gives Alexander some of the best run blocking in the league. Alexander is a very good, but not great, back that happens to be on a team with fantastic blockers. I am aware he is the reigning MVP, but that award is partially a team award in a way. I really think Steve Smith of Carolina deserved to be the MVP, but they aren't likely to give it to a WR, especially one that sort of came out of nowhere (although he showed flashes in 2003).

MikeMc
01-17-2006, 05:16 PM
Too many to focus on, but I'll agree that the trade down is the best scenario....see my thread (Kubiak is Key to draft):

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=17283

SF might want to get in the position to draft Bush. Of the top teams, I'd say all of them might get Bush. NO has Deuce, but he has had key injuries over his career, same for TEN and Brown & Henry. Jets have ailing Martin and Blaylock is not the answer. GB is finding out that Green is no longer the same RB he was in the past. I think OAK is set with their stable of RBs.... and SF did not get what they expected from Barlow (although Gore was a decent pickup last year).

I still think Reggie Bush will be the #1 pick, I just do not think the Texans will be the one's drafting him. The Texans have WAY too many problems to fix to keep the #1 pick. The opportunity to trade down, add depth and still get valuable help with their first Rd pick, is too hard to pass up to just get Reggie Bush.

Hopefully Kubiak tells Casserly and McNair that Carr and Davis are fine players.....that he needs to fix the OL & DL in order to make the team a winning team. Hopefully they will listen....which one of the three has more experience with a winning franchise?????

jacquescas
01-17-2006, 05:43 PM
THere are about 12 offensive lineman that either have a 1st round grade or would be an upgrade on our line thus that will be the priority in the second round and possilbly one of the 3rd round picks either. This deph allows us to reach for the BPA with our first pick. Also the fact we have 5 first day picks also means that we dont necesairily need to trade for more picks.

dat_boy_yec
01-17-2006, 07:02 PM
All right all right, above average. Mark my words, IF he leaves and plays in another offense behind a different offensive line, there will be a substantial drop off in production. I think DD in the Seahawk offense, behind that O-line is a good 1,800 yard (combined yardage) back. I could see him easily doing 1300 on the ground with another 500 through the air. Their O-line is THAT good. I think a lot of Alexanders talent and gawdy numbers are a product of his line. Next year will tell the tale. If you take any top 15, top 20 NFL back and put him behind that line, I would bet they could approach Alexander numbers. Put Tomlinson back there and every record would be broken.

I think you're off your rocker. Davis has worked behind a good run blocking line his whole time here. You ever see the rush average drop drastically when DD misses a game? Let me answer that, no you don't. Let me put it to you like this would you be willing to trade Alexander for D.D. I could imagine Alexander here now breaking records. The seahawks run blocking does not overwhelm the Texans run blocking ability. The difference is in the pass blocking if defenses didn't have the confidence to line up 8 in the box how many more yards do you think DD would have. Alexander works behind a great o-line this is true, but his skills are undeniable if you put DD in that system he might approach those #s but would he be able to match or surpass those #s let me finish laghing for a moment.