PDA

View Full Version : Another outsiders view of the Texans situation


Hookem Horns
01-16-2006, 06:33 PM
The Texans want to hang on to Carr, who has fooled a lot of scouts but darn few NFL teams. If they pass on Young to choose Bush because they think Carr is legit, they can expect to be vying for the first overall pick and searching for another new head coach in the next three or four years.

His observation in that paragraph is my fear.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15932040&BRD=1675&PAG=461&dept_id=18170&rfi=6

MorKnolle
01-16-2006, 06:36 PM
What is the delcotimes and how long did it take you to find this article?

Hookem Horns
01-16-2006, 06:40 PM
What is the delcotimes and how long did it take you to find this article?

I have a newsgrabber on TexansTalk.com that finds new stories all over the net on the Texans and their rivals every hour. It's interesting seeing how writers across the nation view our situation. Delcotimes is a site for a local Philly newspaper.

Carr Bombed
01-16-2006, 06:40 PM
Man you really dug into the depths of hell to find that article, I've never heard of that site nor that writer before.

Grid
01-16-2006, 06:41 PM
Based on that paragraph..im not going to read the rest of the article. Nothing about this team fooled any NFL team. Our coaches were predictable in everything they did.

Hookem Horns
01-16-2006, 06:59 PM
Nothing about this team fooled any NFL team.

That's exactly what he said.

SESupergenius
01-16-2006, 07:02 PM
He'll be a totally different QB in a west coast style offense.

Grid
01-16-2006, 07:05 PM
That's exactly what he said.

eh.. in that paragraph he said that nothing Carr did fooled any NFL team.. which is true.. but its true of every aspect of the team, not just Carr.. and that falls on the coaches. I dont think thats a viable reason to say we must get VY.. unless he is also saying we MUST get A.J. Hawk, Hlatoi Ngata, Dbrickashaw Ferguson, Reggie Bush, Ko Simpson, Jimmy Williams..etc..etc.. to replace all the other players who didnt fool anybody.

kbourda
01-16-2006, 07:07 PM
He'll be a totally different QB in a west coast style offense.

I hope you're right if they decide to keep him.

SESupergenius
01-16-2006, 07:15 PM
I hope you're right if they decide to keep him.
Stop....you're scaring me. Quit it.

Double Barrel
01-16-2006, 07:18 PM
The Houston Texans blew it the last time they had a tough decision to make. Their choice of quarterback David Carr over defensive end Julius Peppers is largely why they’ve earned the first overall pick in the draft for the second time since tabbing Carr four years ago.

Based on this statement from the article, we should not draft Young or Bush, but rather Mario Williams!! (or maybe A.J. Hawk?)

I've always said we'd need a defensive lineman before a QB. That's always the order of importance....right? idonno: ;)

kbourda
01-16-2006, 07:21 PM
Stop....you're scaring me. Quit it.

I don't mean to. Since people are quick to say scrambling QB's don't last in the NFL, you can say the same thing about a QB learning the West Coast Offense. It's not the easiest offense to pick up. But if they do pass on Young and keep Carr, I hope he can be the exception rather than the rule.

aj.
01-16-2006, 07:26 PM
He'll be a totally different QB in a west coast style offense.

Whoa, I just had a flashback to the Lions message boards I used to frequent three years ago.

SESupergenius
01-16-2006, 07:42 PM
Whoa, I just had a flashback to the Lions message boards I used to frequent three years ago.yea I guess you are right, the coaches we had a pretty good offensive system. Carr should have been league MVP under that system.

Flash forward yourself to Steve Young from his days with the lowly Bucs or maybe flashforward yourself to Matt Hasselbeck when in his 4th year he threw for 15 TD's and 10 int's (Carr had 14 and 11.)

run-david-run
01-16-2006, 07:47 PM
one can only hope....also, if we do switch to a west coast, VY would have just as much if not more trouble picking it up. obviously this is not an argument that can be made for those in favour of VY/against Carr...

HoustonFrog
01-16-2006, 08:04 PM
one can only hope....also, if we do switch to a west coast, VY would have just as much if not more trouble picking it up. obviously this is not an argument that can be made for those in favour of VY/against Carr...

I don't think this is a very valid argument. I'm not a VY honk but considering the West Coast offense consists of shorter throws, quick releases, etc I'd think VY would excel. Jack Pardee was on the other day and said he needs to be in an offense like the Colts where they spread it and let him throw those quick passes. I know theirs isn't the prototypical but it is a version.

aj.
01-16-2006, 08:06 PM
Flash forward yourself to Steve Young from his days with the lowly Bucs or maybe flashforward yourself to Matt Hasselbeck when in his 4th year he threw for 15 TD's and 10 int's (Carr had 14 and 11.)

Don't you mean flash back?

Anyway, if David Carr ever makes the Hall of Fame, wins multiple Super Bowls, or even leads his team to a conference championship then I guess I'll agree with your point.

ArlingtonTexan
01-16-2006, 08:20 PM
Flash forward yourself to Steve Young from his days with the lowly Bucs or maybe flashforward yourself to Matt Hasselbeck when in his 4th year he threw for 15 TD's and 10 int's (Carr had 14 and 11.)

If I recall, people were trying this bit before the season with Aikmen or someone.

chuckm
01-16-2006, 09:25 PM
Based on this statement from the article, we should not draft Young or Bush, but rather Mario Williams!! (or maybe A.J. Hawk?)

I've always said we'd need a defensive lineman before a QB. That's always the order of importance....right? idonno: ;)


noooo you've got it all wrong ..... he need to build (or buy) a time machine, go forward in time to about 2012 and see how all these guys have worked out ... then come back and draft .... imagine Tagliabue's face when he reads the card ... with the first pick in the 2006 NFL Draft the Houston Texans select ... from Ohio State University, Linebacker, AJ Hawk .....

Texans_Chick
01-16-2006, 09:29 PM
His observation in that paragraph is my fear.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15932040&BRD=1675&PAG=461&dept_id=18170&rfi=6


Just a quick observation a little off the topic.

Alternative history is an interest of mine. Who knows if Julius Peppers would have excelled coming to an expansion NFL team?

There are few players who are so good that they shine on a bad team. We've have had a few. But you will never know.

chuckm
01-16-2006, 09:33 PM
Alternative history is an interest of mine. Who knows if Julius Peppers would have excelled coming to an expansion NFL team?

There are few players who are so good that they shine on a bad team. We've have had a few. But you will never know.


I've also considered this but in a different way ... imagine if Carr was drafted by the Steelers and Roethlisberger drafted by the Texans .... I'm not saying that Carr would have been as successful but I would bet my mortgage that Roethlisberger would be even more shell-shocked than Carr because he's less mobile ....

Tulip
01-16-2006, 09:37 PM
Reading over the link in my earlier post and Len Pasquerelli's article from back in October on David's option - I'm reminded that the national media wasn't overly-enamored with David Carr at that time. Certainly, there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm for the 3-year option.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2006, 09:41 PM
I've also considered this but in a different way ... imagine if Carr was drafted by the Steelers and Roethlisberger drafted by the Texans .... I'm not saying that Carr would have been as successful but I would bet my mortgage that Roethlisberger would be even more shell-shocked than Carr because he's less mobile ....

I'm not sure about this. You are talking about the course of a franchise. Sometimes drafts and FAs are added depending on the players and their development. Roethlisberger was a strong armed leader coming out of college and he may have handled the situation differently. We will never know. Depending on how he handles it might have changed what personnel we got. I just don't think people can mix and match and say a certain person would have done or not done this or that. If you did that you could say that every bust might have made it in a different system when in reality, some guys just aren't made for the pros.

Runner
01-16-2006, 09:43 PM
I've also considered this but in a different way ... imagine if Carr was drafted by the Steelers and Roethlisberger drafted by the Texans .... I'm not saying that Carr would have been as successful but I would bet my mortgage that Roethlisberger would be even more shell-shocked than Carr because he's less mobile ....


In that scenario, I think that the less mobile Roethlisberger would be called a "bust" on this board because he would be injured all the time.

chuckm
01-16-2006, 09:45 PM
Roethlisnerger was a strong armed leader coming out of college and he may have handled the situation differently.

no doubt but being a strong armed leader won't help you against a persistent pass rush ... ask Peyton Manning


Depending on how he handles it might have changed what personnel we got.

I'm not grasping your meaning but in no way was my post a Carr apology ...



I just don't think people can mix and match and say a certain person would have done or not done this or that. If you did that you could say that every bust might have made it in a different system when in reality, some guys just aren't made for the pros.

completely agree

Grid
01-16-2006, 09:45 PM
I think the point being made is that we arent an established team.. we are lacking in certain key areas... and Carr hasnt gotten a fair assessment.

I honestly dont understand how anyone can say that Carr sucks.. I can understand people saying that they arent sure about him.. but saying he sucks is just odd to me. How can you say that with any kind of conviction when you step back and look at the whole picture?

chuckm
01-16-2006, 09:49 PM
I think the point being made is that we arent an established team.. we are lacking in certain key areas... and Carr hasnt gotten a fair assessment.

there has never been a quarterback, dead or alive, that would not have been better with an awesome running game and a kick a@@ defense

Napa Auto Parts
01-16-2006, 10:09 PM
Well the writer does have it right i doubt even the greatest Carr homer Would say he was a better pick than J.Peppers thats who i wanted all along even but no one listens to the fans. look at us now four years later Peppers Is a Proven Great DE and our Carr Is on the right track to make tim couch look like a superstar.:brickwall

HoustonFrog
01-16-2006, 10:17 PM
I'm not grasping your meaning but in no way was my post a Carr apology ...

I know, I just meant to say that I'm not sure if I could imagine what would happen personnel wise if say he threw for more TDs or if the team won more games and we went with more defense in drafts, etc. Just the fact that certain guys and how they affect the team could have affected the three subsequent drafts.

thegr8fan
01-16-2006, 10:21 PM
I think the point being made is that we arent an established team.. we are lacking in certain key areas... and Carr hasnt gotten a fair assessment.

I honestly dont understand how anyone can say that Carr sucks.. I can understand people saying that they arent sure about him.. but saying he sucks is just odd to me. How can you say that with any kind of conviction when you step back and look at the whole picture?
Carr has gotten more than a fair assessment by me, and he SUCKS. How many years is it gonna take before we get to be 'an established team'? Are we lacking in certain KEY areas? Yep, Quaterback being one of those Key Areas.

When I step back and look at the whole picture, it excuses some of the reasons WHY he sucks, but it doesn't excuse the fact that he quite simply on a personal playing level, SUCKS.

what I find confusing is how some of the same members who tout the Carr hasn't been given a fair chance, and its a team effort are the same one's who are able to analyze Matt Stevens playing, or Marcus Colemans, or any other team member, on an individual level, yet for some insane, blind homer reason are unable to do so with our current Sucky QB, Carr.

Grid
01-16-2006, 10:24 PM
because Carr has shown promise whether you see it or not.. unlike Matt Stevens.

And personally.. my complaint with Coleman is a lack of effort and heart. Im not gonna pay big bucks for a player that is only going to play his heart out when we are winning.

ccdude730
01-16-2006, 10:30 PM
Carr has gotten more than a fair assessment by me, and he SUCKS.

im glad kubiak and reeves are workin on their own assessments.

you really want to know where else we are getting killed? TE, WR, C, T, G, NT, ILB, CB, FS, K

football is a team effort, and so is winning.

we had an OC who yelled at him for taking a shot on a deep ball instead of a small pass. is it his fault the WR dropped it? coaching and this line has hurt alot of his potential. without football, there would be no next year

thegr8fan
01-16-2006, 10:35 PM
because Carr has shown promise whether you see it or notwhen? Honestly WHEN did Carr ever show a flash of his potential. For one whole half of a QTR? please. For one game last season against Minn? please. Those weren't flash's of PROMISE, they were flukes of nature. An anomoly. A lucky bounce of the NFL dice.

Show me what Carr has CONSISTANTLY shown as promise/potential.

Im not gonna pay big bucks for a player that is only going to play his heart out when we are winning.but it is ok to pay big bucks for a player who is playing his utmost best game and yet still SUCKS? Carr is playing his heart out and it is still substandard NFL quality play. That is deemed a BUST. It is only a matter of time till the label gets applied permanently, IMHO. I am patient enough to wait for that time, but I am not patient enough to excuse his poor individual playing effort.

michaelm
01-16-2006, 10:41 PM
Whoa, I just had a flashback to the Lions message boards I used to frequent three years ago.

AJ, you are definately secure with your reputation on this MB to admit frequenting the Lions MB... lol

aj.
01-16-2006, 10:45 PM
Actually, I've never been on a Lions board in my life but I had to work that in to make the humor work. Apparently it didn't work... :rolleyes:

Grid
01-16-2006, 10:50 PM
when? Honestly WHEN did Carr ever show a flash of his potential. For one whole half of a QTR? please. For one game last season against Minn? please. Those weren't flash's of PROMISE, they were flukes of nature. An anomoly. A lucky bounce of the NFL dice.

Show me what Carr has CONSISTANTLY shown as promise/potential.

but it is ok to pay big bucks for a player who is playing his utmost best game and yet still SUCKS? Carr is playing his heart out and it is still substandard NFL quality play. That is deemed a BUST. It is only a matter of time till the label gets applied permanently, IMHO. I am patient enough to wait for that time, but I am not patient enough to excuse his poor individual playing effort.


In 2004 he was better than Matt Hasselback, Byron Leftwich, and Carson Palmer.

in 2005, despite a poor effort by everyone, he was comparable to Chris Simms and Steve McNair


sucks is a strong word, and not a fair assessment of what Carr has done with ALOT less to work with.

this is pointless though.. youve made up your mind and no amount of logic or fact is gonna make you change your opinion, bad as it is.

Why cant people just be fair with their assessment of players? Why does it have to be "they are a god" or "they are the worst player ever"? There is a little gray area that 99% of the players in the NFL fall into, ya know?

Mr. White
01-16-2006, 10:51 PM
when? Honestly WHEN did Carr ever show a flash of his potential.
Show me what Carr has CONSISTANTLY shown as promise/potential.


The '03 Jacksonville game is the only flash of potential Carr greatness I remember ever seeing. He talked Capers and Palmer into going for it on 4th down with seconds left. DC showed brass as he dived over the Jax D into the end zone and I thought the team was headed for the next level.

Take this post at face value. Thanks to Houstonprofootball.com for the reminder.

Hookem Horns
01-16-2006, 10:54 PM
because Carr has shown promise whether you see it or not.. unlike Matt Stevens.



Tony Banks has also shown promise at times behind the same offensive line. He has had some real good games and actually won them. Maybe with Bush in the lineup we will also be able to finally see what Tony Banks can do on a consistant basis. BTW, why isn't McNair throwing him $8 million also?

thegr8fan
01-16-2006, 11:05 PM
this is pointless though.. youve made up your mind and no amount of logic or fact is gonna make you change your opinion, bad as it is.I just asked you for facts and you gave me nothing. I ask you to state where Carr has shown his potential, nada, from you. I ask where it was that you saw Carr consistantly play at an NFL level, nothing from you.

Please enlighten me and bring out some of these facts. Bring to me some logic as to how you see Carr as being able to 'walk on water without getting his pant legs wet'. I eagerly await for you to show me some kind of facts that support the argument that Carr does in fact 'cut the mustard' at an NFL level.

Please don't muddy the water with all the discrepancy's of the team itself. Lets keep this on an individual level and here is your chance to WOW me with your logic and facts. Bring them forth and PROVE how Carr is a starting NFL quaterback.

I eagerly await these logical facts on Carr.

trust me I am quite capable of changing my mind. I used to think Wells couldn't run his way out of a wet paper sack with a razor sharp machete, and a 'cut here' sign on the side. I now think after last season he could do it without the sign. He will still need the machete, but he did improve last year, I will readily admit that. So my opinions are not inflexible. They are pretty accurate though, if you bother to actually look at 'logic and facts'.

Grid
01-16-2006, 11:06 PM
I think cause what you see is what you get with Banks.. hes been around the block and this is the player he is..no better no worse. And while Banks has had some good games.. he has also had some bad games.. and I wouldnt say that he has looked head and shoulders better than Carr at any time.

Carr still has room to grow into a better QB.. which is why I think he is being considered for the big paycheck..and not Banks.

thegr8fan
01-16-2006, 11:09 PM
He talked Capers and Palmer into going for it on 4th down with seconds left.the fact he had to talk the Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator into letting him do that should tell you how much confidence either of those 2 guys had in Carr.

Don't get me wrong, gutsy move on David's part, but the defense keep us in that game, not Carr matching the Jags scoreing or running away with the game with his brilliant offensive playing.

Jack Bauer
01-16-2006, 11:13 PM
the fact he had to talk the Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator into letting him do that should tell you how much confidence either of those 2 guys had in Carr.

Don't get me wrong, gutsy move on David's part, but the defense keep us in that game, not Carr matching the Jags scoreing or running away with the game with his brilliant offensive playing.

Yeah, like Dungy in the game yesterday? Peyton just ignored the coach's decision.

Grid
01-16-2006, 11:17 PM
I just asked you for facts and you gave me nothing. I ask you to state where Carr has shown his potential, nada, from you. I ask where it was that you saw Carr consistantly play at an NFL level, nothing from you.

Please enlighten me and bring out some of these facts. Bring to me some logic as to how you see Carr as being able to 'walk on water without getting his pant legs wet'. I eagerly await for you to show me some kind of facts that support the argument that Carr does in fact 'cut the mustard' at an NFL level.

Please don't muddy the water with all the discrepancy's of the team itself. Lets keep this on an individual level and here is your chance to WOW me with your logic and facts. Bring them forth and PROVE how Carr is a starting NFL quaterback.

I eagerly await these logical facts on Carr.

trust me I am quite capable of changing my mind. I used to think Wells couldn't run his way out of a wet paper sack with a razor sharp machete, and a 'cut here' sign on the side. I now think after last season he could do it without the sign. He will still need the machete, but he did improve last year, I will readily admit that. So my opinions are not inflexible. They are pretty accurate though, if you bother to actually look at 'logic and facts'.


Eh.. no you are not capable of changing your mind..not on carr anyway.. not until you see more of him.

Bring to me some logic as to how you see Carr as being able to 'walk on water without getting his pant legs wet'

comments like this are why im not going to bother trying to dig up statistics from his games for the last 4 years. Didnt I just say that there is a gray area where 99% of NFL players fall? You are still stuck in the "hes a god or hes pure ****" mindframe. Carr has had good games.. he has been impressive at times... as someone mentioned, the Jacksonville game. I remember the other Jacksonville game where Banks broke his hand and Carr came in with an injured shoulder and ran the ball for like 20 yards... I remember the Patriots game in overtime.. the Minnesota game in overtime.. I can recall a few sweet TD passes to AJ and Bradford.. The Cardinals game this past season where, even though it was only one half, it was the only time Carr has had full control of the offense. But why should I bother to look all this up when I have to convince you that Carr is Jesus? I dont even beleive that Carr is that good.. I do beleive that he could be a good QB still.. and I beleive that it is POSSIBLE that he could become a great QB.. but I also see that he may never get better and could even get worse.

But we are making the right moves by bringing in Kubiak..and hopefully the Denver OL coach... if they can fix our line, and give Carr some proper coaching.. I think he will be in the right position to elevate his game. if he cant elevate his game.. then I will be right there with you saying we need to replace him. This just isnt the time.

and btw..

Please don't muddy the water with all the discrepancy's of the team itself.

... thats just silly. this is a team sport ya know?

Why dont you tell me how great Vince Young is without mentioning the words great, leader, houston, hometown, running, passing, pocket, play, playmaker, makes plays, arm, strength, good, really good, awesome, future, hall, of, fame, a, the, superbowl, texas, UT...

etc..etc..etc.. you get the point. You arent asking for a fair assessment if you start off the debate with huge restrictions on what is allowed to be mentioned.

thegr8fan
01-16-2006, 11:19 PM
Yeah, like Dungy in the game yesterday? Peyton just ignored the coach's decision.
:confused: not sure how this apply's to the price of tea in china

Jack Bauer
01-16-2006, 11:22 PM
:confused: not sure how this apply's to the price of tea in china

It applies like this: (take a deep breath, take it slow, hey its okay to exhale, you are turning blue! ;) ) Peyton is a two-time league MVP, but Dungy is going to punt with 5:34 left in the game. Does the fact he is going to punt mean he doesn't have confidence in Peyton? No.

thegr8fan
01-16-2006, 11:30 PM
I do beleive that he could be a good QB still.. and I beleive that it is POSSIBLE that he could become a great QB.. but I also see that he may never get better and could even get worse.then on this we may agree for the most part. However I do NOT believe he will EVER get better. If you gave him the 85 Bears Defense and the 2005 Colts offense could he POSSIBLY win a Superbowl, yeah, its possible.

But on his Potential, I sorely disagree with you.

and your wrong on my 'gray area' take on Carr. I do actually think that with a very large part of the Team upgraded significantly, he could be a 'servicable' (ala Trent Dilfer) QB who could learn how to not lose a game. If Fiedler with Miami can do it, then I have to believe Carr can eventually learn how to not lose a game for his team. But I don't believe he will ever take control and win a game on his back either.

ccdude730
01-16-2006, 11:33 PM
you dont see his potential? even people without potential have potential...

this coaching staff has hurt him more than the beating he takes (well it might be a tie). but you have to at least give him enough credit to show glimpses of what he CAN do

Grid
01-16-2006, 11:34 PM
Well I can understand that. I think he could become good enough to take a good team to the superbowl.. not a GREAT team..but a good team :). Like Roethlisberger with the Steelers, or Plummer with the Broncos, or Hasselback with the Seahawks.. I think Carr could rise to that level. I dont think he will ever be the decision maker and consistent QB that Delhomme is.. I think Carr will always have that "chance" that he could throw an interception at a bad time, or just have a bad series, hanging over his head.

But I can understand your point of view that he is not going to reach that point.

SESupergenius
01-17-2006, 02:14 AM
Don't you mean flash back?

Anyway, if David Carr ever makes the Hall of Fame, wins multiple Super Bowls, or even leads his team to a conference championship then I guess I'll agree with your point.
No I think I am comfortable asking you to flashforward to a point from a earlier point in time. If you are already flashed back, do I ask you to flashback to a new point in time??

Anyhow, I'm sure you were thinking that Plummer would be in the AFC title game one day when he went 3-13 in his 4th year in the league.

HardKnockTexan
01-17-2006, 02:21 AM
No I think I am comfortable asking you to flashforward to a point from a earlier point in time. If you are already flashed back, do I ask you to flashback to a new point in time??

Anyhow, I'm sure you thinking that Plummer would be in the AFC title game once day when he went 3-13 in his 4th year in the league.

mmhmm.. that's what im talkin bout!

thunderkyss
01-17-2006, 12:09 PM
I think he will be in the right position to elevate his game. if he cant elevate his game.. then I will be right there with you saying we need to replace him. This just isnt the time.


This IMHO is the best reason to draft Vince Young. Maybe Carr will be able to pull his career back on track, maybe he won't. If it is determined that Rangon has the talent to get the team into the playoffs, then fine..... but if we thought that, WTF is Tony Banks still doing here, and playing ahead of Rangon??

I say draft Vince, as an insurance policy. If Carr can't get it done, (& I've said to give him the first 8 games) the season is a wash anyway. Throw Vince in their, and let him learn the second half of the season. Just because we sign Vince, doesn't mean that we are giving up on Carr, or that Carr is out of Houston. It just means he is expendable, which may be the kick in the pants he needs. If Carr get's us into the playoffs, great..... we keep him another year. IF he plays well, but we miss the playoffs, we cut our losses, and trade him. If he stinks up those first eight games, we bench him, put in Vince. This is the worse case scenario..... because Carr will have even less value than he did before. Money wise, it would be better for us to keep him as our back up... he can't be worse than Banks. It will be expensive, but...... he'll have every oportunity to come back into the game, and win his job back.

But by Drafting Vince, we have a viable "plan B". I'd hate more than anything, to go into next season with only Carr, and hoping that he can do what we all want him to do.... what we all think he is capable of doing. Only to be let down, and have to start looking for a quality QB, with no Vince Young in the Draft. Just look around the league..... musical QBs... it's pathetic.

Of course, this all depends on the buzz about Rangon... when looking at Rangon, if the thought is "he can't do any worse than Carr", then we need to Draft Vince.


I'd be upset, if Carr gets us into the playoffs, and we wasted a pick on Vince. But I'd be more upset if we're looking for a QB next year, and there isn't a potential superstar to be had, and I don't mean to trade up to get Brady Quinn.

Grid
01-17-2006, 12:11 PM
if ya dont want to draft Reggie cause we already have DD.. then why would ya want to draft Young as an insurance policy? There are better things we could use that pick on.

kingh99
01-17-2006, 12:13 PM
My thinking about the pick changed after watching the second round of the playoffs. Carr could be a Jake Delomme type of fighter if he had a team around him.

Did you see how efficient and fast Brady and Plummer were making their reads and the kind of zip they had (especially Brady) on the ball? I don't think Vince can hang as a playoff winning QB, at least not a for a few years. Guys like Brady and Delomme have a hard, overhand downward trajectory throwing motion. Vince has a soft, side arm upward trajectory throwing motion. It'll never get there in time.

I'm back on the Bush bandwagon.

Hookem Horns
01-17-2006, 12:14 PM
I say draft Vince, as an insurance policy.

While I am for VY, you don't spend a #1 pick in the draft for an insurance policy. They will need to be commited to VY.

BTW, who's Rangon? You mean Ragone?

thunderkyss
01-17-2006, 12:17 PM
Anyhow, I'm sure you thinking that Plummer would be in the AFC title game once day when he went 3-13 in his 4th year in the league.

I actually thought Jake would've been taking the Cardinals to the NFC Divisionals
But that team never made the moves necessary to get it done. They've had talent at different spots, at different times, but they've never put it together at the same time. When Jake went to the Broncs, I knew it was a matter of time.

But his game is & was totally different from David Carr's. We want David to stay in the pocket, make his reads, and throw the football. If it ain't there, throw it away. With Jake, you want to roll him out, go through his progression. If it ain't there, make a play, but don't do anything stupid. If Carr breaks the pocket, I'm thinking... "slide fool.... slide" When Jake breaks the pocket, I'm thinking "... it's on now....."

Grid
01-17-2006, 12:20 PM
My thinking about the pick changed after watching the second round of the playoffs. Carr could be a Jake Delomme type of fighter if he had a team around him.

Did you see how efficient and fast Brady and Plummer were making their reads and the kind of zip they had (especially Brady) on the ball? I don't think Vince can hang as a playoff winning QB, at least not a for a few years. Guys like Brady and Delomme have a hard, overhand downward trajectory throwing motion. Vince has a soft, side arm upward trajectory throwing motion. It'll never get there in time.

I'm back on the Bush bandwagon.


I dont think that Carr could ever be Delhomme.. I just dont see him ever having Delhomme confidence in the pocket, and ability to make reads and make the right decision. That isnt a knock against Carr either.. Delhomme is one of the most underappreciated QBs in the league.. he plays a similar game to Tom Brady. I see Carr playing similar to Plummer. Able to make plays on the rollout.. solid and can help the team win.. but he will always have some issues with consistency. That doesnt mean he couldnt take us to the Superbowl though.

And you can have my seat on the Bush bandwagon :spy: ..recent posts and careful consideration of the talent in this draft has led me to beleive that trading down and grabbing a few more players may be the quickest road to success for us. Im saying Trade Down.. with drafting Bush being my secondary choice :ok:

thunderkyss
01-17-2006, 12:23 PM
While I am for VY, you don't spend a #1 pick in the draft for an insurance policy. They will need to be commited to VY.

BTW, who's Rangon? You mean Ragone?


Without a doubt... which makes the decision tough.... Carr would be here, two years Max, regardless what he does.... actually it'll be one year max. The insurance policy is on our season. With Carr, Kubiak, an Offensive FA, a defensive talent.... we may make the playoffs. If Carr can't play(for whatever reason) we start working on the 2007 campaign. Without drafting Young, the second half of the season would be like this year, where the only thing we are doing is jockeying for position in the draft....

Like I said though. If the team(whoever that may be) feels like Ragone (Thank you very much) can pick up where Carr left off, then we're good, and our season may have some life yet. (If Carr had us bound for the Play-Offs that is).

thunderkyss
01-17-2006, 12:24 PM
if ya dont want to draft Reggie cause we already have DD.. then why would ya want to draft Young as an insurance policy? There are better things we could use that pick on.


We've already got a much cheaper policy for that in Wells, and Morency put together.

Lucky
01-17-2006, 01:39 PM
...Carr would be here, two years Max, regardless what he does.... actually it'll be one year max. The insurance policy is on our season. With Carr, Kubiak, an Offensive FA, a defensive talent.... we may make the playoffs. If Carr can't play(for whatever reason) we start working on the 2007 campaign. Without drafting Young, the second half of the season would be like this year, where the only thing we are doing is jockeying for position in the draft...
This isn't the first time I've seen a scenario like this, so I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you (or being a "bad teammate"), but this idea is nuts. Whether you want to draft Young or keep Carr is fine, but you can't do both.

Drafting Young does nothing to help Carr make himself a better QB. Drafting Reggie Bush or trading down and picking up a OT & a TE would. By not addressing the team's deficiencies, you're just setting up Carr for failure. If you draft Young and keep Carr, you're forcing Vince into a QB controversy right off the bat. Not to mention wasting the $6 million cap hit that could go to bolstering the O-line. Would you really want Young to endure the same protection struggles Carr has? No fence-straddling, the Texans have to pick a side.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2006, 01:46 PM
I dont think that Carr could ever be Delhomme.. I just dont see him ever having Delhomme confidence in the pocket, and ability to make reads and make the right decision. That isnt a knock against Carr either.. Delhomme is one of the most underappreciated QBs in the league.. he plays a similar game to Tom Brady. I see Carr playing similar to Plummer. Able to make plays on the rollout.. solid and can help the team win.. but he will always have some issues with consistency. That doesnt mean he couldnt take us to the Superbowl though.

And you can have my seat on the Bush bandwagon :spy: ..recent posts and careful consideration of the talent in this draft has led me to beleive that trading down and grabbing a few more players may be the quickest road to success for us. Im saying Trade Down.. with drafting Bush being my secondary choice :ok:

I agree!Delhomme wasn't always surrounded by great talent and he has always performed. Really undervalued. I also don't know what game some were watchign but Jake wasn't overly impressive in his game. He threw into coverage many times and until the last TD he really didn't have great stats. Of their starting drives two started at the 1. Carr has no pocket presence that looked anything like what we saw this weekend. That doesn't mean I am all for drafting VY, just saying IMHO Carr is not some guy that will be molded.

Double Barrel
01-17-2006, 02:00 PM
I do actually think that with a very large part of the Team upgraded significantly, he could be a 'servicable' (ala Trent Dilfer) QB who could learn how to not lose a game. If Fiedler with Miami can do it, then I have to believe Carr can eventually learn how to not lose a game for his team. But I don't believe he will ever take control and win a game on his back either.

This is sort of where my opinion resides. While football is a team sport, and the fact that the Texans are a really bad team should be recognized, I have to admit that we have not seen flashes of brilliance from our QB in the last four seasons. There have been momentary playmaking highlights, but nothing consistent enough to putt Carr in elite company.

I think with a good team around him Carr could be a serviceable QB (like Dilfer). However, the monkey wrench in the plans is what Vinny brought up about his paycheck. He'll be making elite QB money, and we won't be getting the return on that huge investment.

jerek
01-17-2006, 02:09 PM
Now we are looking to the ... wtf was the name of this again? The Delcotimes?

I am sure there are plenty of inconsequential aspiring sports writers in Bangladesh that also have an opinion on this. But, unless they support Vince Young, it seems that we will never read about them on this board.

Seems utterly pointless to troll the trillions of world wide web pages out there for "someone, please anyone else's" opinion that Carr sucks and Vince Young is the man, especially when the same half-*** argument is repeated verbatim here about one hundred times per day. What's next, quoting xanga sites?