PDA

View Full Version : Would 'tweeners' Babin & Peek fit a 4-3 defense?


Marcus
01-16-2006, 01:35 PM
Both these guys were defensive ends in college. Small defensive ends . . . deemed too small to play in a standard NFL 4-3.

A Dwight Freeney, these two are not. Not nearly the quickness, speed, and strength that Freeney has in overcoming the bigger, and in most cases, very talented offensive tackles.

Casserly has mentioned on the radio, if the defense were switched to a 4-3, there would be a "surplus" in defensive tackles. If that's the case, you have to wonder if there are not enough defensive ends and linebackers to fit a 4-3 scheme.

And if you're wondering that, then you'd have to wonder if changing to the 4-3 would be the wisest move. If Peek and Babin can't get the job done as down linemen, then there would be a problem. I don't see them being any better as outside linebackers in a 4-3.

Thoughts?

bdiddy
01-16-2006, 01:40 PM
I think that Babin is big enough (or can get big enough with a good offseason) to be an everydown weakside DE. Babin has shown consistently that he plays better from a three-point stance than standing up in space.

Peek cannot be an every down DE, however, I think he could be similar to Mathis in Indy - a passing down specialist. We need 2 DEs, one to start on the strongside and one as a quality backup. I think in a pinch Gary Walker could start at strongside w/ Peek coming in on passing situations. However, this is not ideal.

Neither Peek nor Babin is suited to play LB in a 4-3 scheme. Both Wong and Greenwood are ideally suited to be OLBs in a 4-3. We need to get a quality MLB via FA.

If we can get a serviceable MLB and 2 DEs via FA and/or the draft I think the swithc is doable. However, we will have to cut one of our DTs, likely Seth Payne (even though it is a huge cap it), to free up a roster spot.

Runner
01-16-2006, 01:41 PM
I think if we go 4-3 we are going to have to make a big investment in free agency and the draft, because of the LBs and ends as you noted. Most posts on this board are about improving the offense, because that is a lot more fun to think about IMO.

It will be hard to significantly improve talent on both sides of the ball in one year. However, all is not lost! The change in coaching can have as much impact next year as a new set of rookies.

texan279
01-16-2006, 01:46 PM
Both these guys were defensive ends in college. Small defensive ends . . . deemed too small to play in a standard NFL 4-3.

A Dwight Freeney, these two are not. Not nearly the quickness, speed, and strength that Freeney has in overcoming the bigger, and in most cases, very talented offensive tackles.

Casserly has mentioned on the radio, if the defense were switched to a 4-3, there would be a "surplus" in defensive tackles. If that's the case, you have to wonder if there are not enough defensive ends and linebackers to fit a 4-3 scheme.

And if you're wondering that, then you'd have to wonder if changing to the 4-3 would be the wisest move. If Peek and Babin can't get the job done as down linemen, then there would be a problem. I don't see them being any better as outside linebackers in a 4-3.

Thoughts?

IMO Babin could line up as a RDE in the 4-3 like he did in college. Babin was a beast in college, and is now 20 pounds lighter than he was in college so should be a bit quicker than he was in college.

bdiddy
01-16-2006, 01:46 PM
You know who we need? Randy "Pink" Flloyd.

El Tejano
01-16-2006, 03:59 PM
What about a 4-6 defense?

SnakeOilTanker
01-16-2006, 04:04 PM
isnt that the defense the caveman ran

ReggieTheRealDeal
01-16-2006, 04:07 PM
^^^ LOL. I think we should go to a 4-3 with wong and greenwood on the outside

disaacks3
01-16-2006, 04:08 PM
I can't see either of them as anything other than an OLB in a 4-3 either.

If we switch, we need to get some trading done and pick up some real BEASTS to play DE. :redtowel:

texan279
01-16-2006, 04:10 PM
Why does no one think Babin can play DE again?

Lucky
01-16-2006, 04:41 PM
Why does no one think Babin can play DE again?
Because like most of the Texans defenders, Babin struggled to get off blocks last season. His shoulder injury probably had a lot to due with that, because Babin was solid against the run in '04. If his shoulder is fully recovered, Jason should be given a shot at DE next season. I just wouldn't want to count on him getting it done, so a vet or a decent draft pick should be brought in.

Marcus
01-16-2006, 04:42 PM
Why does no one think Babin can play DE again?

He just doesn't have the size to play an NFL DE. I wouldn't be that concerned from a pass rush standpoint, but he'd get run over in the ground attack.

eriadoc
01-16-2006, 04:43 PM
Why does no one think Babin can play DE again?

I believe he can. If anything, I think he's too big to play LB. He's listed on NFL.com at 6'3" (or 6'2" - short term memory loss) and 259 lbs. There aren't many OLBs that are that big. There are at least three or four DEs that are 260-269, and if Babin played heavier in college (20 lbs., as posted above) that would be right about the DE median weight in the NFL, actually (most are 270-279).

texan279
01-16-2006, 04:44 PM
Because like most of the Texans defenders, Babin struggled to get off blocks last season. His shoulder injury probably had a lot to due with that, because Babin was solid against the run in '04. If his shoulder is fully recovered, Jason should be given a shot at DE next season. I just wouldn't want to count on him getting it done, so a vet or a decent draft pick should be brought in.

Sure he has struggled some, because in college he played DE in a 4-3 and is now trying to play OLB in a 3-4, which is why I think he should get a shot as a DE in the 4-3, plus he had the shoulder injury earlier this season. He was a beast as a DE in the 4-3 in college, which is why we traded up to draft him.

Big B Texan Fan
01-16-2006, 04:46 PM
Why does no one think Babin can play DE again?
He probably could for a season until we fill the spot.

bigTEXan8
01-16-2006, 04:50 PM
He probably could for a season until we fill the spot.

I think he could fill it for longer. I think if Babin puts on a little more weight, that I would love him to have him back at DE, where he belongs. Babin is not a LB, he's not a coverage man. He does not seem comfortable when he has to go into coverage. Babin is just a bull-rush type of player. I say, if Babin goes back to DE, then he'll remind a lot of people Jason Taylor. Maybe not as good, but that type of player. Speed and strength.

texan279
01-16-2006, 04:58 PM
In college, as a DE in the 4-3, Babin had 299 tackles, 38 sacks, and 75 stops for losses. I see no reason he could not play RDE full time in a 4-3. And as far as size does, Babin now is listed as 6'2'' 260, compared to Dwight Freeney at 6'1'' 268, John Abraham at 6'4'' 258, Mike Rucker at 6'5'' 275, Osi Umenyiora at 6'3'' 280, Trent Cole, 6'2'' 260, and Javon Kearse at 6'4'' 265, not much of a difference between these guys as far as size goes...

Big B Texan Fan
01-16-2006, 04:58 PM
I think he could fill it for longer. I think if Babin puts on a little more weight, that I would love him to have him back at DE, where he belongs. Babin is not a LB, he's not a coverage man. He does not seem comfortable when he has to go into coverage. Babin is just a bull-rush type of player. I say, if Babin goes back to DE, then he'll remind a lot of people Jason Taylor. Maybe not as good, but that type of player. Speed and strength.
Ya know, maybe you're right. I've always said it sickens me how we've (Cass and Capers) made a bad habit of drafting marginal players to play a whole different position in the NFL. If we want OLB's for a 3-4 then lets get some collegiate LB's not undersized DE's. At least don't do it alot, once, is understandable.
As far as your comparison to Taylor.......c'mon, get real.

disaacks3
01-16-2006, 05:13 PM
Babin "plays smaller" than his size/weight. He simply doesn't seem to have the strength/technique/whatever to get the job done, even from a 'pure' pass rush standpoint.

The one-trick-pony spin move doesn't seem to have evolved much from his first season. Maybe that's because he's had to concentrate too hard for the "Fangio 3-4" that had him trying too many reads, or maybe he just doesn't have the 'stuff' of which NFL DEs are made.

:twocents: Much of this next season will be spent re-grading our entire roster to see if lousy schemes can be blamed for much of the failure, or if our talent really DOES suffer as much as it seemed during our 2-14 run.

SESupergenius
01-16-2006, 06:14 PM
I don't get where you are gathering that from. Babin was very good his rookie year and for the most part of this year he sat because of a shoulder injury and was basically useless when he was trying to play it through. Now I can understand if you don't like the WAY we got him by trading for so many players, but he's still a very good player. He blew up teams towards the end of the season when he was healthier. Now if he moves to a 4-3 he'll be just as forceful.

Big B Texan Fan
01-16-2006, 06:44 PM
Babin, the tatooed circus freak, was a product of a great season in a small school and a monster combine and proday workout.

I don't mind having him but we gave up way too much for him. I thought I was gonna poop my pants when I realized what was happening. Trade with the Titans, are you kidding me, and we gave up what, where's the sharp objects cuz I'm feeling a lil' dicey.

Double Barrel
01-16-2006, 06:55 PM
My gut tells me that this will be the year of offense, and our defense won't really be addressed until the 2007 off-season.

Our potential HC (Kubiak) is an offensive mind, and our no. 1 pick will obviously be offense. And since we've go so many areas to address on the offensive side of the ball - o-line, TE, #2-3 WR, FB (maybe) - I don't see a lot of resources left to address our defense.

I'd bet that we stick with the 3-4 for another year. Find a DC that can evaluate talent and try to make something with what we've got, and maybe pick up a player or two in the draft and FA. But I'd be surprised if they do much more than that, mainly because our offense is in such bad shape.

texan279
01-16-2006, 06:56 PM
Babin, the tatooed circus freak, was a product of a great season in a small school and a monster combine and proday workout.

I don't mind having him but we gave up way too much for him. I thought I was gonna poop my pants when I realized what was happening. Trade with the Titans, are you kidding me, and we gave up what, where's the sharp objects cuz I'm feeling a lil' dicey.

Babin started 25 of 47 games and in that time racked up 299 tackles (202 solo), 38 sacks, and 75 stops for losses. It wasn't just one good season that he had in school.

bigjohn
01-16-2006, 07:18 PM
Babin started 25 of 47 games and in that time racked up 299 tackles (202 solo), 38 sacks, and 75 stops for losses. It wasn't just one good season that he had in school.

He also was the Mid Amercian Con defenisve player of the year in his junior & Senior years.

Big B Texan Fan
01-16-2006, 07:31 PM
Babin started 25 of 47 games and in that time racked up 299 tackles (202 solo), 38 sacks, and 75 stops for losses. It wasn't just one good season that he had in school.
Irregardless was he worth what we gave up to the Titans.

texan279
01-16-2006, 07:34 PM
Irregardless was he worth what we gave up to the Titans.

I was trying to explain why he deserves a chance to be our starting DE if we switch to the 4-3, I was not trying to justify what our front office gave up to draft him. Is it his fault our front office traded up to get him?

dat_boy_yec
01-16-2006, 08:14 PM
I think Babin will be a very valuable commodity if kept here and utilized correctly. As mentioned earlier he had that shoulder injury during the season and towards the end started showing vast improvement. If we get a DC who could use both defenses than we can have the personnel to switch from 3-4 to 4-3 on the field and do so effectively. Walker at LE Payne as a tackle and Johnson or Smith moving in to tackle and Babin moving to the line in a three point stance at RE. That would leave Wong and Peek at outside LB's and Orr in the middle (Orr really impressed me this season and I'm sure he could handle the mlb responsibilities.) As far as dealing with the D this offseason I think it can be done. 1st round on offense 2nd rd on TE or defense 2 third rd picks for defense and in tradition of Broncos drafting strategy offensive linemen after the 4th.

disaacks3
01-16-2006, 10:47 PM
I don't get where you are gathering that from. Babin was very good his rookie year and for the most part of this year he sat because of a shoulder injury and was basically useless when he was trying to play it through. Now I can understand if you don't like the WAY we got him by trading for so many players, but he's still a very good player. He blew up teams towards the end of the season when he was healthier. Now if he moves to a 4-3 he'll be just as forceful. Babin looked "fair" his first season here for a 1st year guy learning a new position, but he definitely looked like a "fish out of water". A "very good" grade is an awfully big stretch. This year, I watched Babin "play through" that injury by standing in place and letting plays happen around him early this season. He got benched for not doing his job, either by not getting it done himself, or by not informing those that needed to know that he COULDN'T get it done.

I couldn't care less what was "Spent" on him when it comes to evaluating his performance. I evaluate his performance as our STARTING OLB in a 3-4. He's far from a BEAST, and still doesn't have enough moves/technique/strength to match up in an even less demanding OLB spot. I've yet to see anything from him that makes me believe that he'd excel as a DE at the NFL level THUS FAR.

I hope he turns the corner, or (if asked) becomes a premier DE in a 4-3. I just haven't seen the player that position requires out of him on the field yet.

keyfro
01-16-2006, 11:28 PM
imo babin has the ability to move back to the 4-3 DE position...however peek does not...he has problems keeping weight on to begin with and is always losing weight as the season goes on...i think peek would be best suited for a strongside linebacker that primarily blitzes on obvious passing downs...keeping wong in the middle and greenwood to the weakside...obviously though we'll need to add more quality guys in the draft to take over for both wong and peek in tougher game situations...as far DE's in Fa go there are plenty to choose from with darren howard, carlos hall, kyle vanden bosch, and john abraham...there is also a lot of quality linebackers in FA...so if casserly spends a little we could get 3-5 solid players

Big B Texan Fan
01-17-2006, 12:24 AM
imo babin has the ability to move back to the 4-3 DE position...however peek does not...he has problems keeping weight on to begin with and is always losing weight as the season goes on...i think peek would be best suited for a strongside linebacker that primarily blitzes on obvious passing downs...keeping wong in the middle and greenwood to the weakside...obviously though we'll need to add more quality guys in the draft to take over for both wong and peek in tougher game situations...as far DE's in Fa go there are plenty to choose from with darren howard, carlos hall, kyle vanden bosch, and john abraham...there is also a lot of quality linebackers in FA...so if casserly spends a little we could get 3-5 solid players
Are the above mentioned UFA or RFA?

SESupergenius
01-17-2006, 01:01 AM
Babin looked "fair" his first season here for a 1st year guy learning a new position, but he definitely looked like a "fish out of water".That's not what you thought at the time:
01-19-2005 - disaacks
Jason Babin played very well (considering his new position)
LOL, I guess you are just trying to win an argument. But tell me how well Babin did his first year compared to other LOLB their first year? Go ahead and compare stats to LOLB in the 3-4 and tell me how Babin stacked up. He did very good.

So yes he got benched this year, yes he was horrible in the early months of season. I pointed this out in preseason that he was not doing well at all, but he tried to play through it and yes, got benched. But don't go belittling his injury, because it was a reality and once he got better towards the end of the season the more you heard his name.

disaacks3
01-17-2006, 07:14 AM
Who, ME, try to win an argument? :)
Notice my disclaimer in there though..."considering his new position". He definitely wouldn't have pushed any starters on other teams out of the spot, given his performance.

I had high hopes for him this year, and he seemed to regress, not get any better. Asking him to switch again MIGHT be the best thing for him, but I wouldn't bet on it.

keyfro
01-17-2006, 07:33 AM
Big B texans fan...they are all UFA's

outofhnd
01-17-2006, 08:40 AM
I agree with the 1 trick pony spin move... as far as Babin. But He would be the ideal 4-3 rush end. actually id like to see a situation where pick could play DE situational, like him and babin on each end.. Walker. TJ or robaire in the middle.

here is how i situationalize it

1 and obvious Running downs

Walker, Smith, Payne, Babin

2nd and long

Walker, Smith, TJ, Babin

3rd and medium pass rush situation

Babin, Walker, TJ, Peek

LB what about Orr in the middle I like his ranginess and athleticism.

Greenwood, Orr, Wong

TexanFanInCC
01-17-2006, 08:59 AM
He just doesn't have the size to play an NFL DE. I wouldn't be that concerned from a pass rush standpoint, but he'd get run over in the ground attack.

julius peppers manages to survive while producing. hes pretty small too

TexanFanInCC
01-17-2006, 09:03 AM
am i first to mention that i think gary walker wont be back next year? remember aaron glenn and jamie sharper and jay foreman?? yeeeeaaaaahhh and i think now its walkers turn. the guy was average at best for us last yr. seeing as how he was a DE, his sack production was below average and we was hardly a factor in the ground defense. seth payne did an admirable job, and robaire too. walker needs to be cut. if foreman got cut, then i dont see how walker has done better than foreman.

JDizzle
01-17-2006, 09:17 AM
julius peppers manages to survive while producing. hes pretty small too

My apologies in advance if you're being sarcastic here, but Peppers is a big mofo. 6'7" 283lbs = pretty small?

Big B Texan Fan
01-17-2006, 09:17 AM
am i first to mention that i think gary walker wont be back next year? remember aaron glenn and jamie sharper and jay foreman?? yeeeeaaaaahhh and i think now its walkers turn. the guy was average at best for us last yr. seeing as how he was a DE, his sack production was below average and we was hardly a factor in the ground defense. seth payne did an admirable job, and robaire too. walker needs to be cut. if foreman got cut, then i dont see how walker has done better than foreman.
with all the focus on the offense next season, the defense will be tweaked at best, Walker stays 1 more year if not more

TEXANRED
01-17-2006, 09:24 AM
I think Peek and Babin would be pretty good DE's. Peeks motor is always running and has a pretty quick move off the line(when he is in to block a punt) and Babin started to prove he was a good pass rush at the end of the season.

I could see these two causing problems for the other teams next year.

Holden135
01-17-2006, 09:38 AM
OK i know i will probobly get chewed out by you guys for this comment but i gotta make it. I don't think we need to give up on the 3-4 defense yet. I think Fangio is the reason we didn't succeed with the defense. If you look at what the top defenses in the league do you will notice how disguised their blitzes are. You have safeties and corners blitzing as much as the lb's. If you set your coverage up correctly these "risky" blitzes can pay off. I think we have some good speed on the defense, we just need the right football mind to tell them where to go.

Marcus
01-17-2006, 09:51 AM
I know this is going to be hard to talk about, but I put a lot of weight on what Casserly said on the radio, in that there would be a surplus in DTs if they go to a 4-3.

We have Walker, Payne, TJohnson, and Smith, who I don't think will fit the DE in any situation. From the staff's viewpoint, (not ours of course) there's not enough speed and agility among any of the 4 to play that position. Considering the cap restraints that Charley will have to deal with, my bet is that both Walker and Payne will be cap casualties.

I guess my point is that, if they do decide to switch, there will be cap-related financial implications in doing so. And there's the possibility they might decide to stick with the 3-4, at least temporarily, until it might be more cap friendly to do so.

BTW, I've heard Casserly mention in the past, on both on 610 and Sirius Radio, that 4-3's are much more expensive than 3-4's, due to DEs being high-dollar.

TheOgre
01-17-2006, 10:05 AM
Walker has played some DE in the past. I would be surprised to see the following lineup:

LDE Walker
LDT R. Smith
RDT T.Johnson (cut Payne?)
RDE Babin

On passing downs you could have
LDE Babin/Peek
LDT Walker
RDT TJ
RDE Peek/Babin

LLB Wong
MLB FA Signee
RLB Greenwood

Lucky
01-17-2006, 10:21 AM
I guess my point is that, if they do decide to switch, there will be cap-related financial implications in doing so. And there's the possibility they might decide to stick with the 3-4, at least temporarily, until it might be more cap friendly to do so.
I think it would cost the Texans more to cut Walker, Payne, or Smith than to keep them. At the same time, I don't think Kubiak should be forced to go with a defensive scheme he doesn't want just because it would be the best interest of the 2006 salary cap. Play the defense he wants to play & bring in coaches that can coach that defense. The cap hits may sting in '06, but the team will be better for it in the long run.

I thought Travis Johnson was a good pick last season, though I felt Derrick Johnson was the best player on the board when the Texans sitting at #13. The Texans didn't see DJ as a good fit for their 34 defense. That seems pretty short-sighted, now. From now on, I'd like for the Texans to select the best player, period. And I'm tired of taking projects and hoping they pan out. Bring in guys who can come in now and earn their money.

eriadoc
01-17-2006, 10:37 AM
There may or may not be reasons Babin won't succeed in the NFL. I think OLB requires a lot of thinking on the fly and some guys just don't have that. Some guys take a while to develop that. Some guys are better on the line than in space. One thing I know for sure - size is not an issue with Babin. This seems to be a common misconception. People know about Freeney and a couple more, but they seem to think it's the exception to the rule. It's not.

ARI Okeafor..........6-5 265 (LDE)
BAL Suggs............6-3 260
BUF Schobel.........6-4 262
CHI Brown............6-3 260
CHI Ogunleye........6-4 260 (LDE)
GB KGB...............6-4 250
IND Freeney.........6-1 268
IND Mathis...........6-2 235
KC Allen.............6-6 265
MIA Taylor...........6-6 255
NYJ Abraham........6-4 258
OAK Burgess........6-2 260
PHI Cole..............6-2 260
PHI Kearse...........6-4 265 (LDE)
SEA Fisher...........6-3 268 (LDE)
STL Little.............6-3 261 (LDE)
STL Hargrove........6-3 269
TB Rice...............6-5 268
TB Spires............6-1 265 (LDE)
TEN LaBoy...........6-3 260

HOU Babin...........6-2 259

As I said, there may be plenty of other reasons he may or may not succeed, but the size argument just got a little stale.

Grid
01-17-2006, 11:15 AM
I dunno if anyone else has already mentioned it.. but Pettway is the right size to play DE as well.

And Peek may be a little on the small side but not terribly so...same for Orr.

jerek
01-17-2006, 12:12 PM
I know this is going to be hard to talk about, but I put a lot of weight on what Casserly said on the radio, in that there would be a surplus in DTs if they go to a 4-3.

We have Walker, Payne, TJohnson, and Smith, who I don't think will fit the DE in any situation. From the staff's viewpoint, (not ours of course) there's not enough speed and agility among any of the 4 to play that position. Considering the cap restraints that Charley will have to deal with, my bet is that both Walker and Payne will be cap casualties.

I guess my point is that, if they do decide to switch, there will be cap-related financial implications in doing so. And there's the possibility they might decide to stick with the 3-4, at least temporarily, until it might be more cap friendly to do so.

BTW, I've heard Casserly mention in the past, on both on 610 and Sirius Radio, that 4-3's are much more expensive than 3-4's, due to DEs being high-dollar.

Good points. Other than Babin as a maybe DE, Peek as a situational DE, and a guy like Walker playing the position for lack of anyone better, I am not sure how we are going to go to a 4-3 this year, esp. with the LBs we have. I still think Babin has got the skills for it, just needs to work on his rush moves a little.

I still like the 3-4. I hated Fangio's 3-4, but I still like the 3-4 concept. The Patriots and Steelers have done a damned good job, year after year with it, as some of the very elite defensive units in the league. I hope we can bring in a guy who can utilize it, cause we might be looking at a long defensive year or a busy offseason if not.

Marcus
01-18-2006, 08:18 AM
I still like the 3-4. I hated Fangio's 3-4, but I still like the 3-4 concept. The Patriots and Steelers have done a damned good job, year after year with it, as some of the very elite defensive units in the league. I hope we can bring in a guy who can utilize it, cause we might be looking at a long defensive year or a busy offseason if not.

I like the 3-4 too! They have been acquiring the personnel for the 3-4 for 4 seasons, and I readily admit they have missed on some of those personnel picks. But the Patriots and Steelers constantly prove that the 3-4 works. It's just that Fangio's version of it didn't. What boggles me is that Capers was the architect of the Steelers 'attack' style of 3-4, and I don't understand why he stood by and watched Fangio use a different version than the one Capers used when he was the DC at Pittsburgh. Must have been that 'loyalty' thing.

Fangio's version of the 3-4 involved using the 3 defensive tackles upfront to just tie up the offensive line, and that was supposed to be their only job, while the linebackers' job was to "find the ball and cover". But the linebackers couldn't do that job. Fangio seemed like he was getting the DTs more involved later in the season, and it might have been Capers bending his ear . . who knows.

But it seems to me, that going to a 4-3 is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, considering the cost of doing so.

Cincinnatikid
01-18-2006, 09:48 AM
I agree that the 3-4 is a great system, especially if its used properly. Another reason to keep this system is the Colts. In case you all didnt notice, the colts cant handle a 3-4. The steelers killed peyton, the chargers killed peyton, and despite what many believe, the texans actually played decent in both of the first halves this season. If this team with the new coaches can play in a good system, i think the defense will rise up atleast 10 spots with no personell changes. I think you have some talent on this team that has been squandered for the past few seasons. There is no need to switch it up. Babin and Peek showed at the end of the season what they can do, so did Orr. THey have the edge rushers they need if they are in a good system. Some help in the ILB is needed as well as another good safety and cb. This defense isnt that far from being a good unit.

bigTEXan8
01-18-2006, 10:36 AM
What I would like is to steal Dick Jauron to have as our DC. That guy did so good against the Colts though, he's gotten cred to his coaching possibility.