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View Full Version : Where are you getting the money from?


Dime
01-16-2006, 02:34 AM
Looking at our current cap, the extension, and who is on our roster now, I want to know something from those Reggie Bush or Vince Young Drafters?
Where are you going to get the funds from?

Lets look at drafting Bush first. Ok.. he is the second coming or something. He will probably sign for 5-7 years for around 40 million (with bonus) to 75 million (with bonus). Since he is the 'best ever in the 5 years', he will probably sign for more then Alex Smith (the first pick of the draft last year). His contract was for about 50 million with bonus on a six year note. Comes to be about 6 million his first year, not including other possible bonues. Since Bush is the best player to come out for a time, I guess he will sign at first pick for around 60 million. This means that this year, against our cap will be at least 7-9 million for him with bonus. Plus we have to pay Carr 8 million to stay, plus we have just signed DD long term. You cant tell me that we will not need to re-structure or lose some qualilty people (that we might have) to help this happen. Where we going to get this cash folks. What positions will need to be downsize or redone. And it only gets worse as the years progress.

Lets look at Young. He is good, but not the second coming, He will want at least what the first pick QB went for last year or close. Thats about 50 million with 6-7 million with bonus included on first year cap. See above. The only benefit for this is if we dont want to retain Carr. That would give us that 8 million to work on other needs, but most of it would have to go back into payment for VY.

If we traded down to, lets say 6 pick to 10 pick. That would net our first pick costing us around 15 million over 5-7 years. That means our cap hit this year would be 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 million this year, and with the second round costing us about 2-4 million of 4-6 years would get us 300k to 400k cap hit this year.

a 6-9 million cap hit this year opposed to a 3-4 million is alot of cash we will have to take from other positions. Yes, we have a bit of cap space, but that wont last long if your shopping in FA.

Its numbers folks. Alot of assuming and guess went on here, but I used the last couple of years as a guide to get my approx. I will be close on these numbers.

Big B Texan Fan
01-16-2006, 02:41 AM
Dime-
We ain't trading down in this draft. Your arguments are good about the cap but thats why we have Danny Ferens. He's our Capologist if you will. He'll figue out what our options are, You can restructure a comtrcact. Then on top of that VY may take a bit less to just get to come home.

Dime
01-16-2006, 02:50 AM
Dime-
We ain't trading down in this draft. Your arguments are good about the cap but thats why we have Danny Ferens. He's our Capologist if you will. He'll figue out what our options are, You can restructure a comtrcact. Then on top of that VY may take a bit less to just get to come home.

What makes youi think we aint trading down. We dont even have a coach yet, so nothing has been set in stone yet. In addtion, I remind you of last year where we didnt take DJ because we did trade down to the horror of many here. Cass did that and he is still here, so I dont doubt it is still in the mix since it makes more sense to do it.

jacquescas
01-16-2006, 03:00 AM
also Bush cap hit the first 2 years will probably be fairly friendly to the cap and rookie pool money is usually not included in free cap space, if anything signing bush or young will crunch our ability to sign free agents more than anything.

non natural texan
01-16-2006, 03:41 AM
I skimmed the first post so forgive me if I dodn't go too in depth on this one.

But we get some of the funds by cutting players... we don't just magically get to add 5 players every year.

With that said here are a few that likely won't be back:
Marcus Coleman
Phillip Buchannon
Seth Wand
Corey Bradford

aj.
01-16-2006, 08:11 AM
... rookie pool money is usually not included in free cap space, .

Not sure what you mean by that ...

Rookie pool is counted against the cap, and reported free cap space is the amount you are under the cap - regardless of your allocated rookie pool amount. The more draft picks you have (and the more expensive they are), the more your rookie pool allocation and the more you will need to be under that cap to fit all your drafted rookies in.

Texans Horror
01-16-2006, 08:26 AM
I thought the NFL raised the cap room by 5-6 million this year.

Dime
01-16-2006, 10:14 AM
Even with the 5-6 million increase, we have alot of positions that need to be filled and more then likely, they will not be cheap. If we had no other positions to be filled, then yeah, the 5-6 million added this year would be great. Problem is, we have so many positions to be filled and we have overpaid quite a few positions which makes it even worse. You are looking at the 8 million (what I think we have free) plus the 6 million increase gives us 14 million cap room. With the 8 million bonus of Carr, that puts us back to 6 million minus approx 8 million we will need to sign Bush (4-5 million bonus and 2-4 million salary) leaves us with coming up with 2 million off of other positions right now. And that leaves us NO room for improvement by signing FA players.

MorKnolle
01-16-2006, 10:54 AM
We have a couple different threads (one stickied in each section) with cap counts for everyone on the team.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=16789

The cap is projected to be somewhere between $92-95 million for next year. Without resigning any of our free agents other than David Carr, our projected cap is going to be about $75-78 million, so we have a decent amount of room to maneuver. Granted, drafting Young or Bush will cut into that a decent amount, but we will have some cap room to pursue a couple good free agents and to sign our other draft picks. Also, Bush is not going to cost more money than Vince. Bush will probably get a 6 year $50-55 million deal (probably about a $7 million hit his first year), likely not any more than Alex Smith or Eli Manning since Bush is a RB and they don't get paid as high as QBs. Vince on the other hand is a QB and would get a 6 year deal worth probably $55-60 million (probably about an $8 million hit his rookie year).

jerek
01-16-2006, 10:57 AM
As Mork said, Vince will command more by virtue of being a QB than Bush as an RB, all other things being comparable. Both are highly touted and expected to produce big in the NFL, so if you plan on taking either at the #1, VY will cost ~3-7M more.

thunderkyss
01-16-2006, 11:22 AM
If we traded down to, lets say 6 pick to 10 pick. That would net our first pick costing us around 15 million over 5-7 years. That means our cap hit this year would be 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 million this year, and with the second round costing us about 2-4 million of 4-6 years would get us 300k to 400k cap hit this year.

a 6-9 million cap hit this year opposed to a 3-4 million is alot of cash we will have to take from other positions. Yes, we have a bit of cap space, but that wont last long if your shopping in FA.

Its numbers folks. Alot of assuming and guess went on here, but I used the last couple of years as a guide to get my approx. I will be close on these numbers.

The worst part of this argument, is that you simply promote the nickle&dime approach to building a football team. Which is just as bad as the overpaying approach we currently employ. You don't mention what kinda cap space is available..... so you're case for "Vince/Bush costs too much" has no basis.

Another thing, Free Agency will be over and done with before the draft, you'll have a much better idea of what we'll be looing for, once FA is over.

titan hater
01-16-2006, 11:46 AM
Dime-
We ain't trading down in this draft. Your arguments are good about the cap but thats why we have Danny Ferens. He's our Capologist if you will. He'll figue out what our options are, You can restructure a comtrcact. Then on top of that VY may take a bit less to just get to come home.


I would think GK has a say on this...

Kaiser Toro
01-16-2006, 11:55 AM
The worst part of this argument, is that you simply promote the nickle&dime approach to building a football team. Which is just as bad as the overpaying approach we currently employ. You don't mention what kinda cap space is available..... so you're case for "Vince/Bush costs too much" has no basis.

Another thing, Free Agency will be over and done with before the draft, you'll have a much better idea of what we'll be looing for, once FA is over.

The nickle and dime approach seems to be working in the Salary Cap era and I would surmise that the Seahawks, Panthers, Steelers and Broncos have executed their business as such. The Patriots are another good case study as well.

Dime
01-16-2006, 01:51 PM
The worst part of this argument, is that you simply promote the nickle&dime approach to building a football team. Which is just as bad as the overpaying approach we currently employ. You don't mention what kinda cap space is available..... so you're case for "Vince/Bush costs too much" has no basis.

Another thing, Free Agency will be over and done with before the draft, you'll have a much better idea of what we'll be looing for, once FA is over.

Ummm 3 posts up from this one on where we are cap wise. That figure does not include those going FA this year, and the cap change from there. Of course, if we used that money, it means we are not resigning any of them.

Hardcore Texan
01-16-2006, 03:00 PM
We have a couple different threads (one stickied in each section) with cap counts for everyone on the team.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=16789

The cap is projected to be somewhere between $92-95 million for next year. Without resigning any of our free agents other than David Carr, our projected cap is going to be about $75-78 million, so we have a decent amount of room to maneuver. Granted, drafting Young or Bush will cut into that a decent amount, but we will have some cap room to pursue a couple good free agents and to sign our other draft picks. Also, Bush is not going to cost more money than Vince. Bush will probably get a 6 year $50-55 million deal (probably about a $7 million hit his first year), likely not any more than Alex Smith or Eli Manning since Bush is a RB and they don't get paid as high as QBs. Vince on the other hand is a QB and would get a 6 year deal worth probably $55-60 million (probably about an $8 million hit his rookie year).


This is great, the fact the we are going to have some available cap space to make significant improvement to our team. Personally I don't think we will draft VY, as much as I like him, since it would be a bigger hit on the cap and from everything I have heard Carr is still going to be "the guy", and already ties up a lot of cap money.

thunderkyss
01-16-2006, 03:20 PM
Ummm 3 posts up from this one on where we are cap wise. That figure does not include those going FA this year, and the cap change from there. Of course, if we used that money, it means we are not resigning any of them.


The cap info was added by another user. You mention prior to that, that a 5-6 million dollar increase still wouldn't be sufficient. Morknolle post suggest we have somewhere in the neighborhood of $20mil in cap space, which is quite a bit. Of course, I don't know if I'm reading those numbers correctly.

All I'm saying, is that your first post(to start this thread) states: we can't afford to sign Bush, or Young, with no information about how much we have to spend. I'm saying that was a week argument, regardless of whether you are right or not. Later in Marknolle helped us to see that your argument is completely off base, since we have a nice margin based on this years cap.

thunderkyss
01-16-2006, 03:22 PM
The nickle and dime approach seems to be working in the Salary Cap era and I would surmise that the Seahawks, Panthers, Steelers and Broncos have executed their business as such. The Patriots are another good case study as well.

I seriously doubt any team actively searches for the least expensive player that can be put at a position. Surely these teams have found value, and do not overspend, but that's not the same as nickel&diming a team together.....

thunderkyss
01-16-2006, 03:29 PM
We have a couple different threads (one stickied in each section) with cap counts for everyone on the team.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=16789

The cap is projected to be somewhere between $92-95 million for next year. Without resigning any of our free agents other than David Carr, our projected cap is going to be about $75-78 million, so we have a decent amount of room to maneuver. Granted, drafting Young or Bush will cut into that a decent amount, but we will have some cap room to pursue a couple good free agents and to sign our other draft picks. Also, Bush is not going to cost more money than Vince. Bush will probably get a 6 year $50-55 million deal (probably about a $7 million hit his first year), likely not any more than Alex Smith or Eli Manning since Bush is a RB and they don't get paid as high as QBs. Vince on the other hand is a QB and would get a 6 year deal worth probably $55-60 million (probably about an $8 million hit his rookie year).


So, assuming an $8million hit, being worse case cap hit scenario.... we'd still have between $9- $12 million. Is that enough to sign the number of prospective draft picks, and some free agents??

Other than the free agents we don't resign(hypothetical of course), how else can we free up money??

Kaiser Toro
01-16-2006, 03:38 PM
I seriously doubt any team actively searches for the least expensive player that can be put at a position. Surely these teams have found value, and do not overspend, but that's not the same as nickel&diming a team together.....

To quote David St. Hubbins of Spinal Tap, "There is a fine line between clever and stupid." :)

Dime
01-16-2006, 05:24 PM
The cap info was added by another user. You mention prior to that, that a 5-6 million dollar increase still wouldn't be sufficient. Morknolle post suggest we have somewhere in the neighborhood of $20mil in cap space, which is quite a bit. Of course, I don't know if I'm reading those numbers correctly.

All I'm saying, is that your first post(to start this thread) states: we can't afford to sign Bush, or Young, with no information about how much we have to spend. I'm saying that was a week argument, regardless of whether you are right or not. Later in Marknolle helped us to see that your argument is completely off base, since we have a nice margin based on this years cap.
That cap you are speaking of is not 20 million, but 9 to 12 million after all of the people who are FA this year on our team right now are not signed... That means Ragone, Wells, Bradford, Gaffney, Armstrong, Rivers, Murphy, Riley, Brown, Wand, Pittman, Polk, Evans, Peek, Orr, Walker, and Bell, who are free agents would be gone. We are going to need some of that to resign them.

Btw.. From the players contracts post, if you caculate just those who are contracted right now, the amount comes to around 83,500,000 (not exact, but around). That means we would have about 9 to 12 million to spend left to resign our FA's we want, sign our draft picks, and pick up FA outside our team to help it. Thats not a lot of money left folks.. 7 -8 million player this year will MAJORLY work against us in other areas. (btw, this is AFTER the nfl increase) If we have a increase to 92 million, that would only be around 9 million, and spending 7-8 million on Reggie will make things much more hard, and bad for the cap in the future.

Runner
01-16-2006, 05:42 PM
That cap you are speaking of is 20 million after all of the people who are FA this year on our team right now are not signed... That means Ragone, Wells, Bradford, Gaffney, Armstrong, Rivers, Murphy, Riley, Brown, Wand, Pittman, Polk, Evans, Peek, Orr, Walker, and Bell, who are free agents would be gone. We are going to need some of that to resign them.



Also, we would have to replace any of these players who we don't re-sign, and that takes salary as well. In some cases we are better off signing our own marginal players for depth rather than risking spending more on the free agent market for somewhat equivalent back-up talent. In some cases the RFA tenders for the above players is a pretty good deal.

Dime
01-16-2006, 05:47 PM
That cap you are speaking of is not 20 million, but 9 to 12 million after all of the people who are FA this year on our team right now are not signed... That means Ragone, Wells, Bradford, Gaffney, Armstrong, Rivers, Murphy, Riley, Brown, Wand, Pittman, Polk, Evans, Peek, Orr, Walker, and Bell, who are free agents would be gone. We are going to need some of that to resign them.

Btw.. From the players contracts post, if you caculate just those who are contracted right now, the amount comes to around 83,500,000 (not exact, but around). That means we would have about 9 to 12 million to spend left to resign our FA's we want, sign our draft picks, and pick up FA outside our team to help it. Thats not a lot of money left folks.. 7 -8 million player this year will MAJORLY work against us in other areas. (btw, this is AFTER the nfl increase) If we have a increase to 92 million, that would only be around 9 million, and spending 7-8 million on Reggie will make things much more hard, and bad for the cap in the future.

Sorry... had to redo some numbers.. See quote above now since the info is based off of the 'players contract' thread around here.

MorKnolle
01-16-2006, 06:49 PM
That cap you are speaking of is not 20 million, but 9 to 12 million after all of the people who are FA this year on our team right now are not signed... That means Ragone, Wells, Bradford, Gaffney, Armstrong, Rivers, Murphy, Riley, Brown, Wand, Pittman, Polk, Evans, Peek, Orr, Walker, and Bell, who are free agents would be gone. We are going to need some of that to resign them.

Btw.. From the players contracts post, if you caculate just those who are contracted right now, the amount comes to around 83,500,000 (not exact, but around). That means we would have about 9 to 12 million to spend left to resign our FA's we want, sign our draft picks, and pick up FA outside our team to help it. Thats not a lot of money left folks.. 7 -8 million player this year will MAJORLY work against us in other areas. (btw, this is AFTER the nfl increase) If we have a increase to 92 million, that would only be around 9 million, and spending 7-8 million on Reggie will make things much more hard, and bad for the cap in the future.

I was counting on cutting McKinney, Coleman and a few others, and in my players contract thread I posted which of our free agents I'd keep and added in their approximate salary and it still came out at about $78 million (I had us keeping Ragone, Wells, Gaffney, Armstrong, Rivers, Brown, Polk, Peek, and Orr, and maybe Bell. After our 1st round pick, the rest of our draft picks won't cost much money, other than our 2nd round pick will still be a decent amount since it will be the first pick of the round, but again that's one of the reasons I would like to see the team trade down since we can probably pay all 4-5 of the players we acquire from that trade for as much if not less than the #1 pick.

Grid
01-16-2006, 06:58 PM
Actually.. having more 2nd and 3rd rounders could end up costing us more.

If i understand aj.'s post correctly (the one in my sig).. and im sure if I dont understand it correctly aj. will descend from the heavens and smite me.

But.. to put it simply.. because the current NFL cap agreement is due to expire in a few seasons.. that means that rookie contracts have alot more of their money being paid in the first few years.

What that means is..(again..I think).. the cost of having more first day picks could be higher than just sticking with what we have.. because the higher cost of first day contracts would add up to a total greater than the cost of signing the #1 overall. ESPECIALLY if we trade down but still stay in the top 10.

MorKnolle
01-16-2006, 07:03 PM
Actually.. having more 2nd and 3rd rounders could end up costing us more.

If i understand aj.'s post correctly (the one in my sig).. and im sure if I dont understand it correctly aj. will descend from the heavens and smite me.

But.. to put it simply.. because the current NFL cap agreement is due to expire in a few seasons.. that means that rookie contracts have alot more of their money being paid in the first few years.

What that means is..(again..I think).. the cost of having more first day picks could be higher than just sticking with what we have.. because the higher cost of first day contracts would add up to a total greater than the cost of signing the #1 overall. ESPECIALLY if we trade down but still stay in the top 10.

I understand that, but the #1 pick is going to cost us a $50-60 million contract, while if we trade down to like #4 or lower, it will probably cost $25 million at the most, and then additional 2nd and 3rd round picks will likely only cost a total of another $12 million or so. If you add in a future 1st rounder it could end up costing more depending on how high that pick is, but either way I'm willing to spend a few more million dollars if it's for four starting players rather than just one.

Grid
01-16-2006, 07:11 PM
but either way I'm willing to spend a few more million dollars if it's for four starting players rather than just one

see now we get back into the old arguement. Will we get 4 starters? that is definatly no guarantee.. id say our chances of getting 3-4 starters are just as good whether we trade down or stay where we are. The quality of the prospects lowers in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.. there are no sure things in any round, but in the top of the first, especially #1 overall, the chances are best.

We also get into the skill vs. quantity arguement. Would you rather have Randy Moss, or Plaxico Burress and Reggie Wayne? Would you rather have LT, or Brian Westbrook and LaMont Jordan? Would you rather have Peyton, or Trent Green and Daunte Culpepper?

I prefer the 1 superstar to the 2 starters.

ccdude730
01-16-2006, 07:44 PM
from what i read (and im not 100% sure on this either) but that is only concerning prorating the bonus. this season it can only be spread out over 4 years (this year it was 5) which means you could backload a contract and expect a cba agreement and restructure contacts to make things easier.

and im willing to take a step out on a limb and say we have one of the higher rookie pools this season which cant hurt any.

Dime
01-16-2006, 08:39 PM
Actually.. having more 2nd and 3rd rounders could end up costing us more.

If i understand aj.'s post correctly (the one in my sig).. and im sure if I dont understand it correctly aj. will descend from the heavens and smite me.

But.. to put it simply.. because the current NFL cap agreement is due to expire in a few seasons.. that means that rookie contracts have alot more of their money being paid in the first few years.

What that means is..(again..I think).. the cost of having more first day picks could be higher than just sticking with what we have.. because the higher cost of first day contracts would add up to a total greater than the cost of signing the #1 overall. ESPECIALLY if we trade down but still stay in the top 10.

This wouldnt be the case... in this circumstance. Rookies in the second round get about 450k max per year for the first few years signing 5-7 year contracts. If we sign a 15/20 million contract paying 2-3 million a year, and even have 4 second round picks, would get close to paying 1/2 what we would need to pay bush to play for us.

Runner
01-16-2006, 08:44 PM
This wouldnt be the case... in this circumstance. Rookies in the second round get about 450k max per year for the first few years signing 5-7 year contracts. If we sign a 15/20 million contract paying 2-3 million a year, and even have 4 second round picks, would get close to paying 1/2 what we would need to pay bush to play for us.

I thought second rounders typically got 3-4 year contracts with upwards of $1.5M signing bonuses that get figured into the cap hit too.

Dime
01-16-2006, 08:47 PM
see now we get back into the old arguement. Will we get 4 starters? that is definatly no guarantee.. id say our chances of getting 3-4 starters are just as good whether we trade down or stay where we are. The quality of the prospects lowers in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.. there are no sure things in any round, but in the top of the first, especially #1 overall, the chances are best.

We also get into the skill vs. quantity arguement. Would you rather have Randy Moss, or Plaxico Burress and Reggie Wayne? Would you rather have LT, or Brian Westbrook and LaMont Jordan? Would you rather have Peyton, or Trent Green and Daunte Culpepper?

I prefer the 1 superstar to the 2 starters.

You are asking if we would get 4 starters. We have many area of need and the chance we would get 4 starters are much greater then most teams. Why, because those who start now on our team in certain areas would not even play backup on other teams. Your one superstar has more of a chance of a bust (to a filled position) then 4 people do in need positions. You have NO idea how Bush would be and we dont even have a good cap number to bring him in.

To answer your question, Personally, I would rather have plex, reggie wayne,
Pearless Price, and Antiono Gates then a Moss.

Dime
01-16-2006, 08:50 PM
I thought second rounders typically got 3-4 year contracts with upwards of $1.5M signing bonuses that get figured into the cap hit too.
Spread out over the 3-5 year period. If you got a 1.5 million bonus, then you get it over the seasons from what I understand. If you have a 5 year agreement, then you get 300k bonus a year. 3 year period, 500k a year.

Grid
01-16-2006, 08:53 PM
just cause they might start for us, that doesnt mean they would be starter material :).

lets say that Casserly is drafting at 50%.. which is close to true. about 50% of our drafted players end up contributing to the team.

if we traded down and got 2 more picks.. that would be 1 more good player.

So the way I see it.. we are arguing about two good players.. or 1 superstar. Of course none of that is written in stone.. we could get a better superstar with our 6th round pick than we would get by drafting Bush..you never know. But from a statistical viewpoint.. I think that this take is accurate.

so its more like.. do you want Moss, Wayne, and Plex.. or Plex,Wayne,Price,and Gates. (and actually I think Gates may qualify as a superstar)

is this the stupidest conversation or what? hehe

ccdude730
01-16-2006, 09:15 PM
Spread out over the 3-5 year period. If you got a 1.5 million bonus, then you get it over the seasons from what I understand. If you have a 5 year agreement, then you get 300k bonus a year. 3 year period, 500k a year.
i think the yearly bonus would be around 375k since they can only be prorated a max of 4 years.

thunderkyss
01-17-2006, 12:40 PM
That cap you are speaking of is not 20 million, but 9 to 12 million after all of the people who are FA this year on our team right now are not signed... That means Ragone, Wells, Bradford, Gaffney, Armstrong, Rivers, Murphy, Riley, Brown, Wand, Pittman, Polk, Evans, Peek, Orr, Walker, and Bell, who are free agents would be gone. We are going to need some of that to resign them.

Btw.. From the players contracts post, if you caculate just those who are contracted right now, the amount comes to around 83,500,000 (not exact, but around). That means we would have about 9 to 12 million to spend left to resign our FA's we want, sign our draft picks, and pick up FA outside our team to help it. Thats not a lot of money left folks.. 7 -8 million player this year will MAJORLY work against us in other areas. (btw, this is AFTER the nfl increase) If we have a increase to 92 million, that would only be around 9 million, and spending 7-8 million on Reggie will make things much more hard, and bad for the cap in the future.

Now see this is a much better argument, since you've included figures, and your calculations.