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beerlover
01-14-2006, 01:53 PM
Jake the Snake Plummer
1997-98 Arizona QB rating=73.1 2203 total yds. 220.3 per game
1998-99 Arizona QB rating=75.0 3737 toatl yds. 233.6 per game
1999-00 Arizona QB rating=50.8 2111 total yds. 175.9 per game
2000-01 Arizona QB rating=66.0 2946 total yds. 210.4 per game

Notice the drop-off after year 2, then up & down but overall pretty much middle of the road = average. Still Jake Plummer, QB, Cardinals was ranked as the top free agent two years latter in 2003 "This is a league starved for starting quarterbacks. At 28, Plummer still has plenty of good years ahead of him. To see a player of this caliber at this position on the market is unbelievable."

Now in a different system @ Denver the Broncos are once again playoff conteneders largely in part because of the maturation of Plummer & the work of OC Gary Kubiak in developing his abilities.

2003-04 Denver QB rating=91.2 2182 total yards 198.4 per game
2004-05 Denver QB rating=84.5 4089 total yards 255.6 per game
2005-06 Denver QB rating=90.2 3366 total yards 210.4 per game

David Franchise Carr

2002-03 Houston QB rating=62.8 2592 total yards 162.0 per game
2003-04 Houston QB rating=69.5 2013 total yards 167.8 per game
2004-05 Houston QB rating=83.5 3531 total yards 220.7 per game
2005-06 Houston QB rating=77.2 2488 total yards 155.5 per game

David Carr's career (60 games) QB rating=73.7
Jake Plummers career (127 games) QB rating=75.1
Jake Plummers career (pre-Kubiak) QB rating=66.22

this is only in theory of course but since coming to Denver & working in the Bronco (Kubiak) system his QB rating has risen 8.875 points. If you apply those same numbers to Carr his passer rating increases (Post Palmer) to a respectable QB rating of 82.58. comparing post to post Plumer with Kubiak only is even higher QB rating of 88.63 (this season Plummer has a 90.2 rating).

It would seem to me that Jake Plummer is an excellent comp to David Carr and shows what kind of improvement we are apt to see once Kubiak comes on board & begins working with David. I've followed Jake since his days at Arizona State & always thought he could be a decent NFL QB. I did not follow David at Fresno but he seems a little bigger & stronger in every department compared to Jake, yet if he follows the same path we should expect similar if not superior results in the right system with better coaching.

When the Patriot Bronco game starts tonight I'll be watching closely to the playcalling, Plummers reads and his reaction to pocket pressure. If you can just imagine, for one game, that could be David Carr in the Texans new system next year would that be acceptable or something we could all live with?

Obviously alot of us have some pretty strong feelings on this subject, but what if we added a top tier tackle, pass rushing specialist & middle linebacker in a better scheme with improved position coaching would that be enough to satisfy Texans fans in that rumored 5 year plan we where all led to believe?

gtexan02
01-14-2006, 02:01 PM
The key difference is that Jake Plummer makes stupid mistakes. He is a good QB who isn't very smart. Carr has much more potential than him, in my opinion

bigTEXan8
01-14-2006, 02:02 PM
I think Kubiak could be a great benificiary to Carr. Hopefully he can get Carr going.

Tulip
01-14-2006, 02:04 PM
The key difference is that Jake Plummer makes stupid mistakes. He is a good QB who isn't very smart. Carr has much more potential than him, in my opinion

Carr makes stupid mistakes too. He just makes ones that get him sacks instead of interceptions. I think Dom Capers taught him to fear the interception.

bigTEXan8
01-14-2006, 02:15 PM
Every QB makes stupid mistakes. To me, that's just an empty statement. I'd say that most of P. Manning's bad games came off dumb moves, and he's coming off like the best QB to ever play the game. QBs are human, and humans make stupid mistakes. Do some QBs make more stupid mistakes than others, yeah. I just think that some repetitive stupid mistakes can be fixed, which is why I'm excited about Kubiak coming to coach.

HoustonFrog
01-14-2006, 02:32 PM
The key difference is that Jake Plummer makes stupid mistakes. He is a good QB who isn't very smart. Carr has much more potential than him, in my opinion

I don't see the difference. Carr has rocks for brains and stares down receivers and takes unnecessary sacks after 4 years. I don't find JUCO Dave or Jake too smart. I spent two hours at happy hour discussing these things and a table of 8 guys all came to the conclusion that Carr will never take you to where you want to be and alot of it is leadership and the players believing in him.

LikeABoss
01-14-2006, 02:38 PM
I don't see the difference. Carr has rocks for brains and stares down receivers and takes unnecessary sacks after 4 years. I don't find JUCO Dave or Jake too smart. I spent two hours at happy hour discussing these things and a table of 8 guys all came to the conclusion that Carr will never take you to where you want to be and alot of it is leadership and the players believing in him.

:tv:

*shakes his head*

bigTEXan8
01-14-2006, 03:13 PM
I don't see the difference. Carr has rocks for brains and stares down receivers and takes unnecessary sacks after 4 years. I don't find JUCO Dave or Jake too smart. I spent two hours at happy hour discussing these things and a table of 8 guys all came to the conclusion that Carr will never take you to where you want to be and alot of it is leadership and the players believing in him.

I know I do my best discussions when I'm drinking.

texan279
01-14-2006, 03:15 PM
I spent two hours at happy hour discussing these things and a table of 8 guys all came to the conclusion that Carr will never take you to where you want to be and alot of it is leadership and the players believing in him.

So I should take the word of 8 guys in a bar over Dan Reeves and the seven guys that interviewed for our head coaching spot? :hmmm:

bigTEXan8
01-14-2006, 03:21 PM
So I should take the word of 8 guys in a bar over Dan Reeves and the seven guys that interviewed for our head coaching spot? :hmmm:

Woah woah woah woah woah woah...Are you telling me that Larry, Gary, Joe, Mo, Bill, Phil and Todd collectively, don't know more than Dan friggin' Reeves?

edo783
01-14-2006, 03:25 PM
The advantage that Jake has had over Carr is that the Denver TEAM that he went to is one HELL of a difference from the Texans. I see the whole Texans team improving this coming year, including Carr, but it MAY not be as much as Jake did as they are starting at MUCH different points in team development and quality.

jerek
01-14-2006, 03:27 PM
I don't see the difference. Carr has rocks for brains and stares down receivers and takes unnecessary sacks after 4 years. I don't find JUCO Dave or Jake too smart. I spent two hours at happy hour discussing these things and a table of 8 guys all came to the conclusion that Carr will never take you to where you want to be and alot of it is leadership and the players believing in him.

Because great thinking and analysis are going to occur around two hours of happy hour. :rolleyes:

Not to decry your work - it is a very valid part of sports, after all: who amongst us doesn't discuss the game while knocking back a few with our friends? - but you will see similar improvement in Carr's game with Kubiak calling the shots.

Dr. Toro
01-14-2006, 03:30 PM
I don't know if it's Kubiak directly or if it's the running game/WRs that's made Plummer better. Clearly, Kubiak deserves credit either way. It's a heck of a lot easier to pass with that line, a 1500 yard rusher behind you, a stud possession receiver (Rod Smith), a scary deep threat (Ashley Lelie), and a solid TE (Putzier). He didn't have a whole lot to work with in Arizona.

The line will get better next year due to coaching alone, and I expect the running game to improve if its DD or RB. We can't get worse at the TE position, but we still lack a solid #2 or deep threat outside of Johnson. There's no guarantee we can develop one or get one in the draft.

The point I want to make is, Carr's numbers will improve in a better scheme, but it might not be a Plummer turnaround. They spent a long time building that team he stepped into, and when he started making good decisions things got pretty easy. We could be two or three years away from a David Carr that plays at Plummer's current level. We could be 8 months away from it, it might never happen. There are no guarantees.

bigTEXan8
01-14-2006, 03:32 PM
I don't know if it's Kubiak directly or if it's the running game/WRs that's made Plummer better. Clearly, Kubiak deserves credit either way. It's a heck of a lot easier to pass with that line, a 1500 yard rusher behind you, a stud possession receiver (Rod Smith), a scary deep threat (Ashley Lelie), and a solid TE (Putzier). He didn't have a whole lot to work with in Arizona.

The line will get better next year due to coaching alone, and I expect the running game to improve if its DD or RB. We can't get worse at the TE position, but we still lack a solid #2 or deep threat outside of Johnson. There's no guarantee we can develop one or get one in the draft.

The point I want to make is, Carr's numbers will improve in a better scheme, but it might not be a Plummer turnaround. They spent a long time building that team he stepped into, and when he started making good decisions things got pretty easy. We could be two or three years away from a David Carr that plays at Plummer's current level. We could be 8 months away from it, it might never happen. There are no guarantees.
Good post. I must concur with you statement.

jerek
01-14-2006, 03:34 PM
I don't know if it's Kubiak directly or if it's the running game/WRs that's made Plummer better. Clearly, Kubiak deserves credit either way. It's a heck of a lot easier to pass with that line, a 1500 yard rusher behind you, a stud possession receiver (Rod Smith), a scary deep threat (Ashley Lelie), and a solid TE (Putzier). He didn't have a whole lot to work with in Arizona.

The line will get better next year due to coaching alone, and I expect the running game to improve if its DD or RB. We can't get worse at the TE position, but we still lack a solid #2 or deep threat outside of Johnson. There's no guarantee we can develop one or get one in the draft.

The point I want to make is, Carr's numbers will improve in a better scheme, but it might not be a Plummer turnaround. They spent a long time building that team he stepped into, and when he started making good decisions things got pretty easy. We could be two or three years away from a David Carr that plays at Plummer's current level. We could be 8 months away from it, it might never happen. There are no guarantees.

I think Gaffney is actually very similar to Lelie, and I expect that, provided we resign him, you will see a similar aspect develop in his game. While it is true that we don't have a dominant "threat" at #2 WR, you will find that most teams in this league do not have a dominant player, merely one that is reliable and can catch the ball, which is what Gaffney provides.

The simple truth is that Carr has not gotten the ball to him much this year, whether you view this as a fault of the O-line or Carr locking onto receivers, in which case I believe it is due to both. Either way, expect both Carr and Gaffney to get much better this year.

HoustonFrog
01-14-2006, 03:36 PM
I know I do my best discussions when I'm drinking.

I am not saying that the roundtable knows more than Reeves, etc. but the forum is for opinions and I found it quite telling that the same problems with Carr came up in every conversation. Considering that his own teammates say the same thing I'm not really repeating anything new. The comment above said Carr had more smarts considering the dumb moves Jake makes. I don't look at JUCO Dave as any different with his mistakes................and you guys are all lying if you don't think the best sports talk comes over alot of cold beers.:redtowel:

LikeABoss
01-14-2006, 03:38 PM
I think Gaffney is actually very similar to Lelie

Nope not even close.

More like a possession WR vs a deep threat WR with way more speed than the possesion WR.

Dr. Toro
01-14-2006, 04:13 PM
Speaking of Kubiak, I can't wait to see the Pats win so we can get a head coach. Start settling some of this business.

beerlover
01-14-2006, 05:40 PM
Speaking of Kubiak, I can't wait to see the Pats win so we can get a head coach. Start settling some of this business.

thats making things too easy:brickwall these matters will not resolve themselves easily or expeditiously. if it helps just adopt their system as your own (Texans) instead of seeing Plummer visualize Carr in the pocket (:ouch: ) well nevermind just enjoy the game & lets pull for our COACH to win :redtowel:

edo783
01-14-2006, 05:52 PM
Considering that his own teammates say the same thing I'm not really repeating anything new.

Could we have a link to his own teammates saying things please.

run-david-run
01-14-2006, 06:02 PM
Nope not even close.

More like a possession WR vs a deep threat WR with way more speed than the possesion WR.
I think that if we are looking for a Lelie comparison, its Mathis. This was the first season where LElie truly established himself as more then just a fast guy. Mathis is yet to make the transition, but he has tons of time and potential. If we are looking to compare Gaff to anyone on the Broncos it would be Rod Smith-good hands, routes and decent speed...

Tulip
01-14-2006, 06:18 PM
It's always possible, but Kubiak is unlikely to repeat his Plummer success with David Carr for the following reason:

Plummer started over with a new team when he came to Denver. David Carr is returning to the same team where he does not have a good relationship with his offensive line or his receivers.

Texans86
01-15-2006, 12:15 AM
It's always possible, but Kubiak is unlikely to repeat his Plummer success with David Carr for the following reason:

Plummer started over with a new team when he came to Denver. David Carr is returning to the same team where he does not have a good relationship with his offensive line or his receivers.

What are you refering to when you say he doesn't have a good relationship with his line or recievers. Is this just speculation, or do you have some type of source.

texan279
01-15-2006, 12:20 AM
I don't know if it's Kubiak directly or if it's the running game/WRs that's made Plummer better. Clearly, Kubiak deserves credit either way. It's a heck of a lot easier to pass with that line, a 1500 yard rusher behind you, a stud possession receiver (Rod Smith), a scary deep threat (Ashley Lelie), and a solid TE (Putzier). He didn't have a whole lot to work with in Arizona.

The line will get better next year due to coaching alone, and I expect the running game to improve if its DD or RB. We can't get worse at the TE position, but we still lack a solid #2 or deep threat outside of Johnson. There's no guarantee we can develop one or get one in the draft.

The point I want to make is, Carr's numbers will improve in a better scheme, but it might not be a Plummer turnaround. They spent a long time building that team he stepped into, and when he started making good decisions things got pretty easy. We could be two or three years away from a David Carr that plays at Plummer's current level. We could be 8 months away from it, it might never happen. There are no guarantees.

I agree with this, and I think with the right coaching and adding the right personnel Carr could shine here. I also agree with what you say about a real #2 WR. I think Mathis could be a legit deep threat for us.

Nighthawk
01-15-2006, 12:41 AM
THis is hardly worth commenting on. You folks are dreaming about a David Carr that doesn't exist. MAYBE new coaches etc can remedy some of his problems, but he is not now, nor was he ever, similar to Jake Plummer.

Plummer is a Pastorini type, thinks he's a gunslinger, plays with a lot of swagger and backs it up often enough to sell it to the team, not to mention the opponent. He's got a strong arm and he's accurate with the long and short ball, and he's got a lot of touch, and he can throw on the run (either side) very accurately, and he doesn't take many sacks, and he is very elusive and light-footed.

Carr is none of that. He's slow to think, and slow to move, he cannot throw well on the run and can only run right and throw, he is not elusive, he takes sacks while he thinks things through, he is not a swagger guy and couldn't pull it off no matter how long he grew his hair, he is not accurate to moving receivers and he is only accurate when not under any pressure.

I watched Plummer carefully in the Denver/New England game, and if Plummer's performance is what you're expecting out of Carr you're going to be sadly disappointed.

To the poor soul up in this thread who thinks Carr is potentially a much better QB than Plummer -- there is no cure.

beerlover
01-15-2006, 01:15 AM
To the poor soul up in this thread who thinks Carr is potentially a much better QB than Plummer -- there is no cure.

:stirpot: = :party: = :ok:

I saw plenty of resemeblence to Carr, runs out of the pocket/bounds, is engulfed on the blitz & does have the arm strength to throw down the field but when he sets in the pocket the throws are high or hanging. Plummer rolls out alot and throws better than in the pocket, I thought his delivery was low (he is 6010 not 6030) both drop back in the pocket quickly and set looking for high percentage passes. Poor soul or not Jake Plummer reminded me alot of David Carr and showed that a system QB can be successful but frankly the Broncos don't win this game if New England doesn't turn the ball over every other possession. one more thing that surprised me was the play of his line. seriously I don't think they have any more talent than the Texans (when healthy) and they are especially vulnerable from the inside/middle the one differnece that Jake has learned to do when this happens is not to run outside the tackles, instead he runs underneath to escape :twocents:

michaelm
01-15-2006, 02:55 AM
I think that if we are looking for a Lelie comparison, its Mathis.


I can't really agree with this comparison. Sure they're both fast, but that's about where the similarities end for me.
Lelie is 6-3 Weight: 200
Mathis 5-11 Weight: 172

That's a pretty significant size difference...

edo783
01-15-2006, 01:52 PM
The unfortunate comparison so far, is that they both don't catch well. Lelie has been getting better, but hardly good. Mathis MAY come around with some instuction & practice.

thunderkyss
01-15-2006, 02:14 PM
I don't know if it's Kubiak directly or if it's the running game/WRs that's made Plummer better. Clearly, Kubiak deserves credit either way. It's a heck of a lot easier to pass with that line, a 1500 yard rusher behind you, a stud possession receiver (Rod Smith), a scary deep threat (Ashley Lelie), and a solid TE (Putzier). He didn't have a whole lot to work with in Arizona.



It's hard to believe Rod Smith went undrafted.

thunderkyss
01-15-2006, 02:28 PM
THis is hardly worth commenting on. You folks are dreaming about a David Carr that doesn't exist. MAYBE new coaches etc can remedy some of his problems, but he is not now, nor was he ever, similar to Jake Plummer.



For the most part, I concur..... Jake has all the intangibles, that you just can't teach............ Carr for the most part hasn't shown me any of them. He's got a good arm, he's accurate when given time, but that's about it. David Carr is more of a Delhomme, type of Quarterback. I could see a comparison to Tom Brady, if you want to go there, but Delhomme, and Brady are both in "insert few mistake quarterback here" systems..... which Denver does not have.


Jake, definetly controls that offense, but he isn't a great Quarterback. If he goes on to win the SuperBowl, then I'll have to re-evaluate that statement.

aj.
01-15-2006, 03:46 PM
I saw Plummer do one thing last night that Carr has rarely done and that's escape a collapsing pocket under pressure with 'nifty' moves - as opposed to collapsing in a heap.

bigTEXan8
01-15-2006, 03:50 PM
I saw Plummer do one thing last night that Carr has rarely done and that's escape a collapsing pocket under pressure with 'nifty' moves - as opposed to collapsing in a heap.

Carr has escaped plenty of times. The problem is though, it's some of the decisions he makes after he escapes. Careless throws sometimes. Other problem is Carr will escape when he doesn't really need to.

ArlingtonTexan
01-15-2006, 03:50 PM
I have made this comparison for at least the last year to year and a half. I was nearly run off the board when I started it, but now it is seen as a positive. Times change.

bigTEXan8
01-15-2006, 04:03 PM
I have made this comparison for at least the last year to year and a half. I was nearly run off the board when I started it, but now it is seen as a positive. Times change.

Well I think at first, people suspected Carr to be a pure-pocket QB, wihch quickly changed because Carr rarely sees a pocket.. I think Carr has had to change the way he played the game, turning himself into a Plummer type QB. I see it more and more though as Carr's career goes on. What will be nice is that Kubiak won't have to change his game style as much.

aj.
01-15-2006, 04:04 PM
If there's anyone who could benefit from an offseason program in the Tom Brady school of footwork it's DC. It's a cause of a high percentage of his sacks. Nifty footwork he does not have. That lonnggg stride when he's trying to escape just doesn't work. Sure, get him out in the open and he can run. But that's the problem with him; finding the escape route or that safe haven that will allow him to get the pass off before he decides to crumple in a heap. Plummer did a nice job of it a couple times last night and Brady is the Master of It.

bigTEXan8
01-15-2006, 04:17 PM
If there's anyone who could benefit from an offseason program in the Tom Brady school of footwork it's DC. It's a cause of a high percentage of his sacks. Nifty footwork he does not have. That lonnggg stride when he's trying to escape just doesn't work. Sure, get him out in the open and he can run. But that's the problem with him; finding the escape route or that safe haven that will allow him to get the pass off before he decides to crumple in a heap. Plummer did a nice job of it a couple times last night and Brady is the Master of It.

I'll admit, Brady is good in the pocket. I think though Brady has a lot more faith in his line than Carr does in his, along with the system itself. Faith in your line goes a long way in deciding whether to slide or scramble. Plus, I think Brady just likes to get hit for giggles, because that guy always takes a good shot to the mouth, at least twice a game.

fuzzy
01-15-2006, 09:28 PM
I don't see the difference. Carr has rocks for brains and stares down receivers and takes unnecessary sacks after 4 years. I don't find JUCO Dave or Jake too smart. I spent two hours at happy hour discussing these things and a table of 8 guys all came to the conclusion that Carr will never take you to where you want to be and alot of it is leadership and the players believing in him.

For several weeks now I've read HoustonFrog's assertions that David Carr lacks the intelligence to be an NFL quartback, alluding to Carr having to go to Junior College because he lacked the grades (intelligence) to go directly to a DI school. Besides unfairly denigrating those who go to a Junior College, he provides no evidence that David Carr ever went to a Juco. If you look at his biography, he played several games as a true freshman at Fresno State. There was no Junior College experience between his senior year at Bakersfield's Stockdale High School and his enrollment at Fresno State.

People may be entitled to their own opinions, but they're not entitled to their own facts.

TEXANRED
01-15-2006, 09:38 PM
Beerover that was a great post.

Carr is not a great QB but has the potential to be a great QB. I too liked Jake but thought he would never get anywhere in Arizona, much like Carr in Houston.

So hopefully here is to Coach K. coming to Houston to save yet another QB in the NFL

barzilla
01-15-2006, 09:51 PM
I don't know if it's Kubiak directly or if it's the running game/WRs that's made Plummer better. Clearly, Kubiak deserves credit either way. It's a heck of a lot easier to pass with that line, a 1500 yard rusher behind you, a stud possession receiver (Rod Smith), a scary deep threat (Ashley Lelie), and a solid TE (Putzier). He didn't have a whole lot to work with in Arizona.

Yes, I agree with this. Great talent is the difference in Denver. Either way, it points to the fact that Carr has some growing to do, but he also needs more around him before we judge him.

Dr. Toro
01-15-2006, 10:21 PM
Barzilla, what does it tell you about a QB if he can only produce with great talent/scheme. Any quarterback can produce with great talent. A great quarterback makes the talent he has better. Carr has a productive running game, one of the best backfield receivers and a Pro-Bowl freak athlete WR . I think you are being easy on him.

Of the 20 NFL QBs who had better passer ratings than Carr, how many of them had comparable skill talent around them? I know that coaching/play calling makes a difference, but the QB has the ball in his hands.

Chris Simms, Steve McNair, Drew Bledsoe, Donovan McNabb, Brad Johnson, Byron Leftwich, Carson Palmer, Tom Brady.

HoustonFrog
01-15-2006, 10:29 PM
Could we have a link to his own teammates saying things please.

What?That McKinney was on the radio just the other day and said that he wasn't the leader of the team. Get the transcripts from 610. It has been discussed here. I don't see a whole lot of people coming to his defense as a team and it has been common knowledge that he doesn't stay after practice or watch extra film after practice. His aswer was that he likes to spend family time.

edo783
01-15-2006, 11:52 PM
I am not saying that the roundtable knows more than Reeves, etc. but the forum is for opinions and I found it quite telling that the same problems with Carr came up in every conversation. Considering that his own teammates say the same thing I'm not really repeating anything new. The comment above said Carr had more smarts considering the dumb moves Jake makes. I don't look at JUCO Dave as any different with his mistakes................and you guys are all lying if you don't think the best sports talk comes over alot of cold beers.:redtowel:

And you said Carr has rocks for brains and THEN tried to fit it to this post as though his teammates are getting together saying the same thing. If you have real data, POST it otherwise don't make you opinions and inuendos out to be facts. Ya don't like Carr fine, I'm just OK with him, but don't do a charicter assasination on someone just because you think it makes your guy appear better by tearing down another person. If you have the facts that his teammates say he has rocks in his head post where to find it.

infantrycak
01-16-2006, 08:19 AM
I spent two hours at happy hour discussing these things and a table of 8 guys all came to the conclusion that Carr will never take you to where you want to be and alot of it is leadership and the players believing in him.

Yeah, no better method around for coming to a solid conclusion than having a bunch of people slapping each other on the back agreeing on how smart they all are. OK we got the QB problem solved, how about we deal with the mideast now--who has the next round.

Signed--the design committee for the Pacer.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2006, 08:41 AM
And you said Carr has rocks for brains and THEN tried to fit it to this post as though his teammates are getting together saying the same thing. If you have real data, POST it otherwise don't make you opinions and inuendos out to be facts. Ya don't like Carr fine, I'm just OK with him, but don't do a charicter assasination on someone just because you think it makes your guy appear better by tearing down another person. If you have the facts that his teammates say he has rocks in his head post where to find it.


I think the guy has rocks for brains because 1) he couldn't even get into his school to start with and had to go the dumb route of JUCO before college 2) after 4 years of making rookie mistakes he is still making rookie mistakes....holding the ball, staring down the first receiver,etc. As for the teammates thing, you would see that I said my friends and I said he wasn't a good leader and therefore would not take them anywhere. I then said his teammates said the same..followed by proof that McKinney actually said that he is not their leader. How am I making stuff up about the guy? Stop jumping on me because I am not up this guys tail like most of the people around here.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2006, 08:42 AM
Yeah, no better method around for coming to a solid conclusion than having a bunch of people slapping each other on the back agreeing on how smart they all are. OK we got the QB problem solved, how about we deal with the mideast now--who has the next round.

Signed--the design committee for the Pacer.

And this was followed by this post...why don't people read complete threads and have a sense of humor.

"I am not saying that the roundtable knows more than Reeves, etc. but the forum is for opinions and I found it quite telling that the same problems with Carr came up in every conversation. Considering that his own teammates say the same thing I'm not really repeating anything new. The comment above said Carr had more smarts considering the dumb moves Jake makes. I don't look at JUCO Dave as any different with his mistakes................and you guys are all lying if you don't think the best sports talk comes over alot of cold beers."

Frills
01-16-2006, 08:46 AM
Capers and Pendry ruined Carr.

UT switching to a spread offense saved Vince

HoustonFrog
01-16-2006, 08:53 AM
Capers and Pendry ruined Carr.

UT switching to a spread offense saved Vince

I'll agree with you to some extent and that is why you try and get rid of damaged goods while some people think they can change him.

barzilla
01-16-2006, 10:21 AM
Of the 20 NFL QBs who had better passer ratings than Carr, how many of them had comparable skill talent around them? I know that coaching/play calling makes a difference, but the QB has the ball in his hands.


The answer to your initial question is not very many. When you mention skill talent you're forgetting one key thing THE OFFENSIVE LINE. If you combine our weak recieving core (yes, others have weaker cores), our weak offensive line (arguably the worst in the NFL), and gawdawful play calling you get a recipe for disaster.

I keep going back to the first half of the Cardinals game in my own mind. A Carr led offense (with him calling the plays) scored 24 points. It took Pendry two and a half halves to produce that. All told, I don't think any of those 20 QBs were in as bad a situation collectively as Carr.

Is Carr a good enough leader to lead this team the whole way? How the heck should I know? How does any of us know? I do think the comments from his teammates are telling, but leadership is something that can be learned. Yes, some players seem to have it naturally, but I wonder how many of Carr's teammates at Fresno State would say he was a leader. It seems to me that leadership and performance go hand in hand.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2006, 10:28 AM
Barzilla, I just wonder why fans can only go to one game to show what he might be able to do. I keep hearing about the Cards game..well the Cards are horrible and one of the worst franchises in history. I made it a point to look at every game this weekend and watch the QBs in the pocket, etc and with limited exceptions most guys could slide in the pocket and make throws despite the line and the situation. I think that is what I have trouble seeing in Carr.

beerlover
01-16-2006, 10:55 AM
Carr would be more effiencent with GK as the OC & HC. add to that equation a better line and a elite talent like Bush = Better Results which is exactly what Plummer has done since coming to Denver and now Denver is a serious Superbowl contender, as a matter of fact I visualize the Broncos beating the Steelers & GOING TO THE SUPERBOWL.

Carr is almost a Carbon-copy of Palmer, they both have good speed & strong arms, what your seeing is just a more experinced, grizzled system QB in Plummer :superman:

HoustonFrog
01-16-2006, 11:00 AM
Carr would be more effiencent with GK as the OC & HC. add to that equation a better line and a elite talent like Bush = Better Results which is exactly what Plummer has done since coming to Denver and now Denver is a serious Superbowl contender, as a matter of fact I visualize the Broncos beating the Steelers & GOING TO THE SUPERBOWL.

Carr is almost a Carbon-copy of Palmer, they both have good speed & strong arms, what your seeing is just a more experinced, grizzled system QB in Plummer :superman:

My problem with all of this is that I just wasn't that impressed with Plummer, even with the results. I think he was still all over the place in the pocket and he still threw some really bad passes that were lucky not to be picked. Is he a player that is one win away from a SB?Yes. I just have hard time being a team where we bring in players and try to win despite the QB.

beerlover
01-16-2006, 12:21 PM
My problem with all of this is that I just wasn't that impressed with Plummer, even with the results. I think he was still all over the place in the pocket and he still threw some really bad passes that were lucky not to be picked. Is he a player that is one win away from a SB?Yes. I just have hard time being a team where we bring in players and try to win despite the QB.

exactly, finally someone gets it :superman:

the comparison is a valid one because it uncovers both the postive & negative aspects of Plummer & Carr, possible results into the future & making a decesion now that could impact that future :stirpot:

fuzzy
01-16-2006, 12:40 PM
I think the guy has rocks for brains because 1) he couldn't even get into his school to start with and had to go the dumb route of JUCO before college 2) after 4 years of making rookie mistakes he is still making rookie mistakes....holding the ball, staring down the first receiver,etc. As for the teammates thing, you would see that I said my friends and I said he wasn't a good leader and therefore would not take them anywhere. I then said his teammates said the same..followed by proof that McKinney actually said that he is not their leader. How am I making stuff up about the guy? Stop jumping on me because I am not up this guys tail like most of the people around here.

http://gobulldogs.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/carr_david00.html
Funny, I don't see any mention of JUCO in Carr's biography at Fresno State. He was there 5 years (including redshirting one year). Your dislike of Carr is obvious, but at least get your facts right. Repeating the same drivel over and over does not make it true. I

HoustonFrog
01-16-2006, 01:05 PM
http://gobulldogs.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/carr_david00.html
Funny, I don't see any mention of JUCO in Carr's biography at Fresno State. He was there 5 years (including redshirting one year). Your dislike of Carr is obvious, but at least get your facts right. Repeating the same drivel over and over does not make it true. I

Before you start calling out people maybe you should read his bio. While at Fresno his grades were horrible. He had to take classes on the side. Here is a story with a quote. "Carr is one of those 15. Although Carr was not a non-qualifier, "we have had our (academic) battles," Baxter said. " Obviously not drivel.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/b/page/pressbox/0,1328,4292753,00.html

For the record when this team was first formed I loved Carr. I thought he was gutsy and handled himself well. As the 4 seasons have progressed and I have seen the same mistakes over and over and the way he has started to conduct himself, IMHO he is not a leader or very smart on the field. I have nothing against him personally. I'm just stating my opinion.

Dr. Toro
01-16-2006, 01:59 PM
The answer to your initial question is not very many. When you mention skill talent you're forgetting one key thing THE OFFENSIVE LINE. If you combine our weak recieving core (yes, others have weaker cores), our weak offensive line (arguably the worst in the NFL), and gawdawful play calling you get a recipe for disaster.

I think a lot of Carr's sacks are due to his horrible pocket presence/bad decision making. I used the rushing game to present an objective view of the line's performance. We ranked 15th in team rushing this year (113.5 ypg), and tied for 9th in rushing average (4.2 ypc), with a good group of running backs, but no superstars. Of those guys I listed as better QBs with similar talent, none had a significantly better running attack.

Run blocking and pass blocking are different things, but our ability to run in the top third of the NFL would indicate our line isn't as bad as Carr's sack numbers suggests. I think our line needs a lot of improvement, but I also think Carr makes them look worse. If you can't beat the blitz, teams will keep blitzing.

In December when talk about Carr's option came up on 610, somebody presented a stat indicating Carr has a disproportionate number of sacks to knockdowns compared to other QBs. If I can find it, I'll post it.

barzilla
01-16-2006, 02:01 PM
Houstonfrog,

First of all, I am a graduate of TCU (96'). I just thought I'd throw that out there.

I agree that using one football game to judge a player is wrong. In fact, that is the reason I'm against going with Young (I feel a lot of people have been unduly influenced by the championship game). Unfortunately, Carr does not have a larger body of work where he called the plays. He was hamstrung by the coaching staff. My use of that half is only meant to say that he outperformed the coaching staff and their playcalling in general AND IN THAT GAME.

It is clear to me that the past coaching staff was either insanely conservative or they had the same estimation of Carr that you did. The above is not evidence that Carr would average 48 points a game as QB. Yes, the Cards were terrible. However, it is evidence that their estimation of his abilities might be wrong. Despite the fallback this year, I did see improvement in Carr. He still completed more than sixty percent of his passes and still threw fewer interceptions than before. Dom Capers style of coaching emphasized cutting down on turnovers. Throwing the ball before the sack increases the chances of an interception. It is highly possible that the offensive staff didn't emphasize getting rid of the ball. It's also highly possible that he simply reads defenses slower than necessary.

I like the comparison to Jake Plummer because it shows that QBs aren't the number one key to winning in the NFL. If you look at the final four you will not find one QB picked in the top five and only one of them was a first rounder. As much as we might hate to admit, most teams would be better off focusing on their defense and the rest of their offense (running game) and asking if the QB will manage the game. I love watching QBs that make plays. Even though I'm in favor of Bush, I have to admit that watching Young make plays would be fun. However, I'm not sure if that is going to get us the ultimate prize.

At the end of the day, I'm not saying that I know that Carr is good enough or smart enough. I'm simply introducing evidence that might say otherwise. He could be the biggest ***** that came down the pike (although I'd vote Casey Printers on that one), but we won't know until the new regime gets a chance to work with him.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2006, 02:08 PM
Barzilla, great post and as a Texan fan I'd love to see it work out like you said. If Carr is the answer then I'll gladly eat crow and we can all be happy winning or getting far with what we can surround him with. My main worries over the years have been decisions and leadership...something that is growing worse IMHO by the year. BUT I agree with your post for the most part on what Denver is trying to accomplish, etc. I know people dont' go back and read all the old posts but just for clarification, I never have said draft VY on here and have always believed getting Bush with the early to mid picks on O-line and a TE as the best route. Then if Carr still doesn't cut it, he can be gone. I do see where the VY lovers might think he could lead us elsewhere though.

Casey Printers makes me mad. Embarrassed us against A&M and then left. No matter how many Big XII teams we beat that kill A&M I still catch flack about that loss. Good to see a fellow Frog on here

Kaiser Toro
01-16-2006, 02:19 PM
It seems like we have a barn burner here, much in the line of other epic battles such as Lawnmower guy vs Boat; Pool Cleaner man vs Vacuum; Septic tank guy vs. Jacuzzi.

Yes that was a dying last gasp at humor in a season that has produced few smiles. Oy Vey!

bdiddy
01-16-2006, 02:43 PM
I think David Carr is more naturally skilled than Jake Plummer. He has a better pure arm, is bigger, and only slightly less mobile. It is my opinion that with Kubiak as his tutor Carr can be a top 10 QB in the NFL. Now this will not happen next year, but I do expect to see significant improvement especially during the second half of the season. Carr will also benefit from an improved o-line, offensive scheme, and the additional weapon of Reggie Bush.

Big B Texan Fan
01-16-2006, 02:52 PM
Carr would be more effiencent with GK as the OC & HC. add to that equation a better line and a elite talent like Bush = Better Results which is exactly what Plummer has done since coming to Denver and now Denver is a serious Superbowl contender, as a matter of fact I visualize the Broncos beating the Steelers & GOING TO THE SUPERBOWL.

Carr is almost a Carbon-copy of Palmer, they both have good speed & strong arms, what your seeing is just a more experinced, grizzled system QB in Plummer :superman:
So iguess Mike S. the HC has nothing to do with it. If K can make carr a good QB then were a 8-8 to 10-6 team during good years. I don't think K will want to break the bad habits that carr has as an NFL QB. He'd much rather, I guess, would want to groom a new QB that has the same skills carr had coming out of college and then some.

barzilla
01-16-2006, 09:53 PM
I think a lot of Carr's sacks are due to his horrible pocket presence/bad decision making. I used the rushing game to present an objective view of the line's performance. We ranked 15th in team rushing this year (113.5 ypg), and tied for 9th in rushing average (4.2 ypc), with a good group of running backs, but no superstars. Of those guys I listed as better QBs with similar talent, none had a significantly better running attack.

Run blocking and pass blocking are different things, but our ability to run in the top third of the NFL would indicate our line isn't as bad as Carr's sack numbers suggests. I think our line needs a lot of improvement, but I also think Carr makes them look worse. If you can't beat the blitz, teams will keep blitzing.

In December when talk about Carr's option came up on 610, somebody presented a stat indicating Carr has a disproportionate number of sacks to knockdowns compared to other QBs. If I can find it, I'll post it.

That may well be Dr. Toro. As I've said before, I'm not certain of anything. I think anyone on here that says so is deluding themselves. I know what I see and what I see is a QB that doesn't have enough time (in my estimation). I don't think run blocking and pass blocking are necessarily the same thing. They require different skills. Another part of that equation is that when you go into max protect and send out only two WRs it takes time for them to get open. This is especially true when that second WR is Corey Bradford.

At the end of the day these are only my opinions. All I'm saying is that these issues are more complex than you or I make them out to be. I could be wrong and if I am I don't care. In the end, we all want the Texans to win, so I'm not that ego driven about it (not saying you are of course).

barzilla
01-16-2006, 10:04 PM
Barzilla, great post and as a Texan fan I'd love to see it work out like you said. If Carr is the answer then I'll gladly eat crow and we can all be happy winning or getting far with what we can surround him with. My main worries over the years have been decisions and leadership...something that is growing worse IMHO by the year. BUT I agree with your post for the most part on what Denver is trying to accomplish, etc. I know people dont' go back and read all the old posts but just for clarification, I never have said draft VY on here and have always believed getting Bush with the early to mid picks on O-line and a TE as the best route. Then if Carr still doesn't cut it, he can be gone. I do see where the VY lovers might think he could lead us elsewhere though.

Casey Printers makes me mad. Embarrassed us against A&M and then left. No matter how many Big XII teams we beat that kill A&M I still catch flack about that loss. Good to see a fellow Frog on here

Yeah, I remember watching that game in a hotel room in Mississippi of all places (in between casino runs). However, back to the issues at hand......

I'm not suggesting anything but a possibility. Carr could get run over by a bus tommorrow for all I know. The Saints may lose their head and give us the number two overall selection for Carr and draft picks. However, I'm standing with you on Bush, but there are so many people on here with so many opinions that it's almost impossible to keep track of where everyone stands.

Listen, I understand watching your guy at your alma mater and thinking he would kick butt for my team. I remember watching LT and scratching my head half of the time, but I wouldn't have bet the money in my wallet at the time that he was going to be this good as a pro. That's what makes it so hard on these kinds of decisions.

Bush and Young are men among boys. Yes, UT threw the kitchen sink at Bush and he still had 180 yards of total offense between rushing and recieving. We saw what Young did as well. The question is what they will do when they are playing against men. You can compare them to Barry Sanders, Gale Sayers, Randal Cunningham, Steve McNair, or Michael Vick. You still don't know.

I still remember vividly hearing so-called experts saying Ryan Leaf would be a better pro than Peyton Manning. Who knows, if the tables were turned he still might have. A large part of the success of a rookie depends on the situation a guy is put into. Part of me is still wondering if we should trade down. I honestly will not be angry with any of the three options just listed. It was happens from there that will make all the difference.