PDA

View Full Version : I used to think Bush was the only Answer:


Blake
01-14-2006, 12:33 PM
A few weeks ago I was thinking that Bush would be the best option, because I had a win next year attitude. I was willing to pass on Young, because Bush would give us more of an immediate impact.

I also didnt like the idea of just letting Carr walk.

But now ive been looking at this in a different light.

When is the best time to get a QB? I think its when you are getting a new coach, a new system, and a new team. Vince to me projects as a bigger superstar than Reggie Bush. He can give our opponents the same problems Vick gives his opponents.

I just feel this is a perfect time to gamble it all, and take the guy who:

1: said he wants to be here
2: is a hometown hero
3: won some of the biggest games ever.
4: will have a new coach
5: will be able to sit for a year, before coming in.

What we would have to do, is sign Carr to a 2 year deal. Play him for a year, while Vince learns, then after year 1, trade Carr, since we have him for 2 years, and Start Vince.

Im ready to start over, with Young, not Bush.

Holden135
01-14-2006, 12:40 PM
Kubiak resurected (sp?) Jake Plummers career and he can do the same for Carr. If we draft VY we are commiting to a rebuilding stage. I don't think we are as bad as our record. With the right coaching and a few parts here and there i think we can be a contender, a new qb doesn't fill any holes. Maybe not playoffs next season but i think we can get back to where we were in 04. I don't know about you but i am tired of losing. I don't wake up hung over every sunday to watch us get stomped. Plus, if we have a few more bad seasons we can really lose fan support which will doom the franchise.

DynoMoxie
01-14-2006, 12:42 PM
A few weeks ago I was thinking that Bush would be the best option, because I had a win next year attitude. I was willing to pass on Young, because Bush would give us more of an immediate impact.

I also didnt like the idea of just letting Carr walk.

But now ive been looking at this in a different light.

When is the best time to get a QB? I think its when you are getting a new coach, a new system, and a new team. Vince to me projects as a bigger superstar than Reggie Bush. He can give our opponents the same problems Vick gives his opponents.

I just feel this is a perfect time to gamble it all, and take the guy who:

1: said he wants to be here
2: is a hometown hero
3: won some of the biggest games ever.
4: will have a new coach
5: will be able to sit for a year, before coming in.

What we would have to do, is sign Carr to a 2 year deal. Play him for a year, while Vince learns, then after year 1, trade Carr, since we have him for 2 years, and Start Vince.

Im ready to start over, with Young, not Bush.

I say do your best to trade Carr and let Vince go through the learning curve...just like Peyton did. Look how far behind Eli was sitting. Vince will take a lot of pressure off the offensive line and put a lot of pressure on opposing defenses. He'll make mistakes but he'll be a leader in the huddle and it won't take his teammates long to figure out he's a winner...someone who's willing to do whatever it takes. I can see Vince working every bit as hard as someone like Peyton to get to that next level. He showed that at Texas. He won't accept losing. He'll be driven to do something about it.

LikeABoss
01-14-2006, 12:43 PM
Kubiak resurected (sp?) Jake Plummers career and he can do the same for Carr. If we draft VY we are commiting to a rebuilding stage. I don't think we are as bad as our record. With the right coaching and a few parts here and there i think we can be a contender, a new qb doesn't fill any holes. Maybe not playoffs next season but i think we can get back to where we were in 04. I don't know about you but i am tired of losing. I don't wake up hung over every sunday to watch us get stomped. Plus, if we have a few more bad seasons we can really lose fan support which will doom the franchise.

I agree...

Blake
01-14-2006, 01:00 PM
If we draft VY we are commiting to a rebuilding stage.

I dont think we have much of a choice. New coaching staff, #1 overall pick, players being re-evaluated.

Sounds alot like rebuilding to me.

Daonly
01-14-2006, 01:04 PM
I dont think we have much of a choice. New coaching staff, #1 overall pick, players being re-evaluated.

Sounds alot like rebuilding to me.


Stop Wishing... it wont happen..

Blake
01-14-2006, 01:06 PM
Stop Wishing... it wont happen..

Oh dang, what was I thinking. Daonly knows it wont happen. So It wont.

my bad.

Tulip
01-14-2006, 01:10 PM
I agree that this is the time to do it. I've always hoped, rather than believed, that David Carr would become a great quarterback. And the more years that go by, the more my hope wanes.

And it's not like the Texans would be completely starting over. It's never going to be an expansion year again. These players have all had time to play together.

And I know that Kubiak is good for getting something better out of the Jake Plummers of the world. But I don't want a Jake Plummer. I want more.

Vinny
01-14-2006, 01:33 PM
If we draft Bush we have 3 players with enormous contracts/cap hits in the offensive skill side with Dom Davis knocking down some fairly serious change (3.8 mil cap hit) along with Bush being paid a massive amount of money for a running back. AJ, Carr, Bush, and Davis will have something like 24-25 million in cap hit in our offensive skill players alone. If we draft Young and trade Carr for a lineman or a pick we will have Dom Davis with his 3.8 mil, AJ with his 7.4 mil and Young with a projected 6 mil cap hit without having as much money tied up in the offensive backfield at once (substituting Bush for Young and deleting Carr's 8 mil)....thus allowing us to use this money on other players while we rebuild for a 2007 playoff run. Adding Bush makes the cap tighter than it would be to add Young and trade Carr as it gives us less money to pursue other players to fix other holes.

JDizzle
01-14-2006, 01:37 PM
What we would have to do, is sign Carr to a 2 year deal. Play him for a year, while Vince learns, then after year 1, trade Carr, since we have him for 2 years, and Start Vince.

Im ready to start over, with Young, not Bush.

That's a horrible idea IMO. For starters, having Young and Carr on the roster isn't a good idea, becase Carr wouldn't last 2 games before fans started demanding to see Vince Young. This debate we're having now would pale in comparison to that. Then you have to consider him having a career year next year, or him flopping again and not being able to get much in return for a trade. There's no reason that Young almighty can't learn and start.

That's why trying to move back is the best idea. Assuming we get a 2007 1st round pick, that gives us some leverage next year if we need to move on at QB. With Troy Smith and Brady Quinn coming out next year, we'd have 2 1st round picks to work with on top of the later rounds should we need to move up and get one of them. If Carr ends up having a good year, well then there's always Adrian Peterson. That would be the best thing to do IMO.

edo783
01-14-2006, 01:37 PM
The ONLY way it makes sense, IMO, to take Vince is by using the 2 year 5.5 option or POSSIBLY the F-tag. Cap issues come into play and I'm not sure how that would affect our ability to get the FAs and draft guys that we need at the core of the team. If we take Vince, IMO it will be very important to have him sit and be trained in the pro system for a year. He needs an NFL level QB coach as he has never played in that type of offence. If we just toss him to the wolves, we risk injury, because he would likely tend to take off like he did at UT and irregardless of what the "Vince is God" crowd thinks, he won't have his way with NFL level defenses. Fortunatly, he would likely have a much better line to work with than we had this year (it would be hard to imagine worse). Within 2-3 years, we would maybe have a special QB and an exciting offense. Til then, we still need a QB to run the offense and Carr fits the bill for that. The key will be, let Vince learn and protect him from injury. Once he has learned the pro offense, then he will run when it breaks down and not because he sees a hole (not allways a bad thing, but it exposes you QB to BAD guys like Ray Lewis to often).

edo783
01-14-2006, 01:43 PM
That's why trying to move back is the best idea. Assuming we get a 2007 1st round pick, that gives us some leverage next year if we need to move on at QB. With Troy Smith and Brady Quinn coming out next year, we'd have 2 1st round picks to work with on top of the later rounds should we need to move up and get one of them. If Carr ends up having a good year, well then there's always Adrian Peterson. That would be the best thing to do IMO.

That has allways been my preference, but we have three options in front of us and ALL are good ones and EACH have some sort of downside.

JDizzle
01-14-2006, 01:57 PM
I just don't think it's in the best interest of this team to have those 2 on the roster for a year, or even half a season. If you want Young to sit for a year, fine, but hand the keys over to someone else for a year like Banks and get something worthwhile for Carr while you can. I don't think Banks would have any problem with having that role, while Carr probably wouldn't want to waste a year of his career when he could be moving on elsewhere. Starting Carr in that situation while most wait and hope for him to fail is just a bad thing for the team, especially after the season we just had.

MorKnolle
01-14-2006, 02:00 PM
If we draft Bush we have 3 players with enormous contracts/cap hits in the offensive skill side with Dom Davis knocking down some fairly serious change (3.8 mil cap hit) along with Bush being paid a massive amount of money for a running back. AJ, Carr, Bush, and Davis will have something like 24-25 million in cap hit in our offensive skill players alone. If we draft Young and trade Carr for a lineman or a pick we will have Dom Davis with his 3.8 mil, AJ with his 7.4 mil and Young with a projected 6 mil cap hit without having as much money tied up in the offensive backfield at once (substituting Bush for Young and deleting Carr's 8 mil)....thus allowing us to use this money on other players while we rebuild for a 2007 playoff run. Adding Bush makes the cap tighter than it would be to add Young and trade Carr as it gives us less money to pursue other players to fix other holes.

Trading Carr will add his $8 million to our team's cap as well, plus Vince Young will get a bigger contract than Reggie Bush would since he's a QB (will likely get a 6 year, $55 million deal = $9 million a year, so trading Carr and drafting Young will hinder our cap room more for 2006 than drafting Bush.

Vinny
01-14-2006, 02:01 PM
Sign Carr to the two year option and it's only 5 mil (not 8) and the hit is only for one season (the year we really don't expect to make a playoff run), unlike the ongoing salaries and cap hits of adding Bush as one of the highest paid backs in the NFL in addition to the other already large salaries in our offensive skill player area.... It clears us for the future as we have less long term money tied into the skill guys.

HardKnockTexan
01-14-2006, 02:24 PM
The only problem I see in signing Carr and drafting VY is that it would put Carr in a no win situation. Fans would be cheering when he screws up because they want Vince on the field. I just dont really see Carr being willing to be a mentor to a rookie that is going to be replacing him in a year or two.

The Preacher
01-14-2006, 03:02 PM
I just feel this is a perfect time to gamble it all, and take the guy who:

1: said he wants to be here
2: is a hometown hero
3: won some of the biggest games ever.
4: will have a new coach
5: will be able to sit for a year, before coming in.


Gamblers usually end up depressed, without a family, and broke. If we take VY, McNair will be the same (losing team, no fans after halftime, probably still lots of money though.)

MorKnolle
01-14-2006, 04:04 PM
Sign Carr to the two year option and it's only 5 mil (not 8) and the hit is only for one season (the year we really don't expect to make a playoff run), unlike the ongoing salaries and cap hits of adding Bush as one of the highest paid backs in the NFL in addition to the other already large salaries in our offensive skill player area.... It clears us for the future as we have less long term money tied into the skill guys.

First and foremost, the Texans have already said they're picking up the three year option on David Carr, so the two year option is not going to happen. That said, here is a look at the salaries of these guys:

Domanick Davis $3.8 million against the cap
Andre Johnson $7.4 million against the cap

David Carr $7.2 million against the cap to keep, $8 million to trade
Reggie Bush as the #1 pick will probably get a contract around 6 years, $50 million, so an average of $8.3 million per year (admittedly a lot for a rookie RB)
Vince Young as the #1 pick will probably get a contract around 6 years, $55 million, so an average of $9.2 million per year.

So the approximate cap for drafting Bush:
Davis (3.8M) + Johnson (7.4M) + Carr (7.2M) + Bush (8.3M) = 26.7M
The approximate cap for trading Carr and drafting Vince:
Davis (3.8M) + Johnson (7.4M) + Carr (8.0M) + Young (9.2M) = 28.4M

This is a lot of money to split between four players, but generally those positions are going to cost you the most money anyways, plus Bush and Vince will probably have a cap hit for their rookie year below what the average for their whole contract will be since their base salary should increase every year. If we trade Carr, his cap hit will only count this year so starting in 2007 he won't count against our cap, but at the same time if we draft Bush we are at least using all four of those players and they should all play a pretty integral part of the offense, while in the second option Carr's cap hit is dead money and we're paying more money this year for three players than we'd pay for four players, plus I don't see Vince being effective for at least one year so his cap hit is somewhat wasted for 2006 too.

It is my personal belief that the best thing to do for the overall success of our team (immediate and future) would be to trade the pick and acquire additional players, plus that will likely save us money too. We have a decent amount of cap space, and if you're especially concerned about that, then we need to address some of other the large contracts on our team for players that are basically useless, although many of them are also very expensive to move and are stuck here for at least one more year.

Blake
01-14-2006, 04:16 PM
get something worthwhile for Carr while you can.

I dont think you can trade Carr unless you pick up his option.

If we dont take his 2 or 3 year option, you are letting him walk for nothing in return.

Fiddy
01-14-2006, 04:20 PM
The only problem I see in signing Carr and drafting VY is that it would put Carr in a no win situation. Even if we don't draft VY, Carr is in a no win situation unless he gets to the playoffs next year...which wont happen.

And THE NFL DRAFT...welcome to the good/smart side. :D

Vinny
01-14-2006, 04:24 PM
First and foremost, the Texans have already said they're picking up the three year option on David Carr, so the two year option is not going to happen. You act like this is fact - and then go on to build your numbers and argument on why the Texans would be foolish to tag him for 3 years and draft Young. I agree, that would be really foolish. I don't think we trade Carr if we pick him up at the 3 year option, and I have posted this over at hpf in the past. The 3 year option just isn't a fact until they do it, or choose to go another route.

The Texans haven’t even had their coach evaluate the draft yet, so they won’t extend David until then. That’s probably more fact than him being a lock for the 3 year extension.

MorKnolle
01-14-2006, 04:35 PM
You act like this is fact - and then go on to build your numbers and argument on why the Texans would be foolish to tag him for 3 years and draft Young. I agree, that would be really foolish. I don't think we trade Carr if we pick him up at the 3 year option, and I have posted this over at hpf in the past. The 3 year option just isn't a fact until they do it, or choose to go another route.

The Texans haven’t even had their coach evaluate the draft yet, so they won’t extend David until then. That’s probably more fact than him being a lock for the 3 year extension.

I agree that it is follish to sign Carr to a 3 year option and trade him, I was trying to say that the Texans management has all said that they are going to resign Carr for three years so that alone makes it that much less likely that they will draft Vince and/or trade Carr, I was not just saying that to "boost my argument". McNair, Casserly, and Reeves all like Carr a lot, Kubiak has said he likes Carr, the current management in charge has said they are resigning Carr to the three year deal, so they're not all going to be convinced of that and then bring in a head coach that feels otherwise, if they're all that high on Carr, they wouldn't be bringing in a coach unless they were sure that he likes Carr as well and thinks that he can run the team around Carr. Once Kubiak gets here, their first priority is not going to be evaluating the draft (specifically in this case evaluating Young in order to make their decision on Carr), he is going to bring in his coaching staff, then they are going to evaluate the talent that they already have on the team, sign Carr before the deadline for his extension, and then figure out what weaknesses they see on our roster and develop a plan for free agency and draft decisions that will fill those holes to the best extent that they can.

dat_boy_yec
01-14-2006, 09:53 PM
Financially it looked like it would cost less to keep him. If they picked up the 2yr. option it sounds like it would be a 5 million dollar cap hit regardles if he is kept and it might be cheaper if he stays here. I'm assuming the same logic is applied from the 3yr option to the 2 yr option. Further more it does not help Vince's argument because with Carr gone the money is dead weight even with him here what happens if he proves everybody wrong how will the masses react if the Texans get rid of Young. (This is a scenario I haven't seen even broached on this board.) Financially Bush is always the better option. Unless you just drop Carr and make it a necessity to draft Young and start him immideately, but this would be counterproductive to the team. Every one talks about in the long run, but in reality there a many ways to successfully manuever under the cap. The way it looks to me the best move fiscally would be to pick up Carr's two yr. option and draft Bush. IMO there are too many variables in the NFL to even think we know what is best for the long term. I think you do what is best for the immidiate future and let the long-term work itself out. You never know maybe later on down the road we can pick up Young in free-agency and bring him home if he really means what he says, this could be an option in the future. Of course if you trade down everything changes, but out of these 2 choices Bush is the better pick for the immidiate future and maybe for the long-term.

txlonghorn14
01-15-2006, 06:57 PM
i couldn't agree more. just like the giants sat manning for the majority of his first year behind warner, and eli is turning out to be a pretty decent QB despite his playoff performance. i think the texans absolutely need to draft vince young.

nunusguy
01-15-2006, 07:24 PM
i think the texans absolutely need to draft vince young.
I think VY could be that strong #2 WR we need to compliment AJ.

rmartin65
01-15-2006, 07:34 PM
I think an OL should be taken. It makes the most sense considering the players that can come out next year. Why pay Bush or Young huge money and then have them have NO line to help them. What happens if Bush/Young suck completely? Then people will be saying "Why did'nt we draft an OLine?". This is why an OLineman makes the most sense.

Blake
01-15-2006, 08:41 PM
I think an OL should be taken. It makes the most sense considering the players that can come out next year. Why pay Bush or Young huge money and then have them have NO line to help them. What happens if Bush/Young suck completely? Then people will be saying "Why did'nt we draft an OLine?". This is why an OLineman makes the most sense.

There is no reason why we couldnt go:

Trade down, get round 2 in '06, and round 1 in '07

:#4. D'Brickashaw Ferguson LT
Round2: Max Gean-Gilles or Davin Joseph OG
Round2: Leonard Pope TE
Round3: Nick Mangold C
Round3: Anwar Phillips CB


Of course, I would just go with this:

#1: Vince Young QB
Round2: Daryn Colledge LT
Round3: Taitusi Lutui OG
Round3: Anwar Phillips CB

JMHO

TheOgre
01-16-2006, 10:19 AM
If we draft Bush, I think either DD or Morency will be traded. DD would be better for the cap long-term, but we would have quite a bit of dead cap space this season.